The new Hollywood 'romance' is Pro-Life

[Kid Presentable]

Not that I recall a huge amount of abortions in film or television, but with shit like Knocked-Up, Juno and shit, they're all going to have the kid or contemplate giving it up for adoption at worst.

It's as true-to-life as a street full of bums and garbage men bursting into chorus.

[abcdefz]

Maybe because abortion is rarely romantic or funny?

[taquitos]

The garbage man can!!

[Kid Presentable]

Maybe because abortion is rarely romantic or funny?

Not saying it should or could be. But Hollywood is one pro-life motherfucker.

[abcdefz]

Pffft.

[Kid Presentable]

pffft what? Keep typing.

[abcdefz]

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[Kid Presentable]

So you see my point, then. Suspending ones disbelief now entails audiences being convinced that women never choose an abortion. On the flipside, I suppose it wouldn't make much money, though. It's sort of like the Tampax ads where the liquid was blue.

[abcdefz]

I think it's probably more of a story structure thing than anything.

To have an abortion in a movie it'd pretty much have to be a drama, for one thing. I can't imagine it being a romance -- there would
have to be something medically wrong if it were a romance; I don't know how likable two characters could be who chose an abortion
for convenience's sake.

There's an abortion in Grace of My Heart that's strictly a choice thing. Eric Stolz cheats on Illeana Douglas, so she gets an abortion
and a divorce.

But if you think lack of abortions in films reflects some sort of pro-life sentiment in Hollywood and a strictly business mentality,
you're mad.

[Kid Presentable]

Yeah, see I'm not saying romance as a genre. Romance as the general story-telling device that exists in a majority of films. A life that's more ideal, the happy ending, the big pay-off. I wouldn't expect anybody to make a comedy about abortion ("See a movie that sucks!").

The staple Hollywood 'romances' would be 'guy gets girl', or 'girl makes it on her own', 'machine travels back through time and jumps into molten metal', 'penguin wins surfing contest' and so on. And you can add 'she keeps it because it's right no matter how hard it might seem for her'.

And yeah, I do think it reflects a pro-life mentality. Shitloads of people pay to see this type of stuff. And the films barely indulge the white elephant in the room. Plus, them shits are filling theatres. So it is about money, for sure.

[beastieangel01]

I think it's probably more of a story structure thing than anything.

...

But if you think lack of abortions in films reflects some sort of pro-life sentiment in Hollywood and a strictly business mentality,
you're mad.



yep.

[Kid Presentable]

So a lot of films have abortions in them?

[abcdefz]

Are you willfully missing the point, or what?

Few abortions in films (and television) does NOT mean that most people in the industry are pro-life.

It means that most people in the industry know that if you make movies in which women just "happen" to get an abortion, those movies
will probably lose money.

That's all. That is all it means. That is all.

Otherwise, every third episode of Sex in the City would've had one of the girls stumbling out of a Planned Parenthood clinic on her way to a latte.

[ET]

It might not be in the movies but actresses have abortions all the time. They do it in between their collagen injections and lattes.

[Kid Presentable]

Are you willfully missing the point, or what?

Missing the point. Ironic.

Hollywood equals the entertainment-dispensing mainstream film industry. And what I'm saying is that Hollywood has relied on romanticised versions of life in the past to get and maintain audiences. And the latest romanticised version of life (based on the trend of up-the-duff female leads) happens to show women who would do anything but get an abortion when faced with an unwanted pregnancy. It's not a functional "nah abortion won't work in this film" idea. It's the idea that these films do big audiences all while Hollywood seems content to let people believe this is how it always works out.

I'm not saying put abortions in movies that don't need them. I'm saying that where these modern stories of accidental pregnancy present a romantic view of life, it's often built around the idea that the woman in question would never dare get an abortion. Or considered it, but it was far too unsavoury. It's an observation. I don't see how you can deny it unless you show me a bunch of movies where abortion was presented as a real choice without some vilification.

A film about abortion won awards at Cannes. That highlights my point. The mainstream dollar-chugging movie industry would never dare to give its audience enough credit to even confront them with the reality of the issue. I'm just saying: Hollywood is one Pro-Life motherfucker. Baby gets born.

[abcdefz]

And I maintain it's a commercial value, not a moral one.

[Kid Presentable]

Yeah cool. I don't know that you believe commercial and moral values to be independent, since a few posts up you said abortions in films wouldn't sell.

[MC Moot]

4 luni, 3 saptamâni si 2 zile ...a tough,hard watch...(y)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1032846/

[abcdefz]

Yeah cool. I don't know that you believe commercial and moral values to be independent, since a few posts up you said abortions in films wouldn't sell.



You don't think the entertainment industry has ever pandered?

Ah hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!


*wipes tears*

[Schmeltz]

To have an abortion in a movie it'd pretty much have to be a drama, for one thing. I can't imagine it being a romance -- there would have to be something medically wrong if it were a romance; I don't know how likable two characters could be who chose an abortion for convenience's sake.

High Fidelity, yo. I hated that movie, but still.

[abcdefz]

Good one.

-- but even in that, it was framed in a kind of tragic way. It was also in the past, it was offscreen, and both characters regretted it, etc.

I think what KP wants is arguing for is to see no-remorse, just-for-convenience abortions in entertainment.

[Kid Presentable]

Good one.

-- but even in that, it was framed in a kind of tragic way. It was also in the past, it was offscreen, and both characters regretted it, etc.

I think what KP wants is arguing for is to see no-remorse, just-for-convenience abortions in entertainment.

No I'm not. I was just making an observation. Hollywood right now is a Pro-Life motherfucker. Baby gets born. Always.

A *wipes tears* will never cancel out contradicting yourself, either. What did you mean, exactly? You claimed that movies with abortions wouldn't make money, and that there's no deeper meaning to it than that. I've been saying that these new abortion-free movies happen to make money, whilst apparently satisfying some greater moral good. Then you claim the lack of abortions in films helps them make money. I counter that you don't hold them to independent anyway, and you drop "ahahahahaha" because you don't actually have a rebuttal, or a point.

[MC Moot]

Oh, Michael...Michael, you are blind...It wasn't a miscarriage...It was an abortion...An abortion, Michael...Just like our marriage is an abortion. Something that's unholy and evil. I didn't want your son, Michael! I wouldn't bring another one of you sons into this world! It was an abortion, Michael! It was a son Michael! A son! And I had it killed because this must all end!

:eek:

[Kid Presentable]

Fuck, the first time I recall thinking about this is watching the Jeff Goldblum Fly movie.

[abcdefz]

No I'm not. I was just making an observation. Hollywood right now is a Pro-Life motherfucker. Baby gets born. Always.

A *wipes tears* will never cancel out contradicting yourself, either. What did you mean, exactly? You claimed that movies with abortions wouldn't make money, and that there's no deeper meaning to it than that. I've been saying that these new abortion-free movies happen to make money, whilst apparently satisfying some greater moral good. Then you claim the lack of abortions in films helps them make money. I counter that you don't hold them to independent anyway, and you drop "ahahahahaha" because you don't actually have a rebuttal, or a point.



Your thinking is pretty jumbled.

I'm saying that lack of, let's say "unsympathetic" abortions in entertainment media doesn't indicate that the industry has pro-life values. I think
it indicates that including protagonists having "unsympathetic" abortions would be box office death, because of what it perceives as deeply
imbeded cultural values about such things.

So it doesn't reflect their values (other than commerce); it reflects their perception (or research) about national cultural values. That's what
I've argued consistently -- you're the one who's changing:

Your initial thesis is that it reflects on Hollywood's values, and I say no. Later in the game your wording implies whether it reflects any values
at all, which is a very different animal.

Hence: pfffffffffffffffft.

[Kid Presentable]

So with these knocked-up-women films (Juno, Knocked Up, Smart People) being the thing to do right now in Hollywood, you're not in the least bit bemused by the fact that nobody has even bothered to approach the situation somewhat realistically?

What are Hollywoods values? Are they commercial? I'd say so. And they maintain commercial viability by appeasing the audiences. And the audiences moral values are going to determine what sells. Therefore, the spate of films in which the female lead falls pregnant and doesn't get an abortion (while being a crucial plot point, granted) really sums up my argument.

Hollywood is a Pro-Life motherfucker (probably because its audience likes it that way, but moreso just because by its very nature Hollywood plays it safe). Baby gets born (because that's the only way it sees fit to present the situation).

Edit: What's with the use of the term "Unsympathetic" abortion, anyway? That wording again points to what I'm saying. These films make all instances of abortion seem "unsympathetic". Especially if you consider the whole audience (which may include a diverse range of women and men affected by the abortion issue; young girls who are impressionable; women who have been through the process). The very idea that a character could compromise such a 'happy' ending by making such a choice constitutes a pretty unsympathetic approach in my eyes.

[bigblu89]

Most of the movie going population likes movies with a happy ending.

A lady deciding to have an abortion in most cases is not a happy ending.

It would be like having one of those "Meteor Hitting the Earth" movies end with Will Smith and Ben Affleck deciding that saving the world is just too much trouble, and decide to give up.

[bigblu89]

So with these knocked-up-women films (Juno, Knocked Up, Smart People) being the thing to do right now in Hollywood, you're not in the least bit bemused by the fact that nobody has even bothered to approach the situation somewhat realistically?

What are Hollywoods values? Are they commercial? I'd say so. And they maintain commercial viability by appeasing the audiences. And the audiences moral values are going to determine what sells. Therefore, the spate of films in which the female lead falls pregnant and doesn't get an abortion (while being a crucial plot point, granted) really sums up my argument.

Hollywood is a Pro-Life motherfucker (probably because its audience likes it that way, but moreso just because by its very nature Hollywood plays it safe). Baby gets born (because that's the only way it sees fit to present the situation).

Edit: What's with the use of the term "Unsympathetic" abortion, anyway? That wording again points to what I'm saying. These films make all instances of abortion seem "unsympathetic". Especially if you consider the whole audience (which may include a diverse range of women and men affected by the abortion issue; young girls who are impressionable; women who have been through the process). The very idea that a character could compromise such a 'happy' ending by making such a choice constitutes a pretty unsympathetic approach in my eyes.

This whole statement answered you own question.

Abortion is rarely the decision, because it would be a huge downer in a movie.

It has nothing to do with pro-life/pro-choice, and everything to do with trying to make an entertaining movie that people would plunk down $10 to see, and then another $20 when it comes out on DVD.

How great or funny would Knocked Up have been if the Grey's Anatomy chick decided to have an abortion? #1, the movie would've be pretty pointless, and #2, it would've also have only been 20 minutes long.

[Lyman Zerga]

i thought everything in hollywood movies is unrealistic cheesepoop

[bigblu89]

i thought everything in hollywood movies is unrealistic cheesepoop

Yeah. I can't tell if the original post is just bashing "Hollywood" type movies for always looking on the bright side, or if he really thinks there should be more light hearted comedies that involve abortion.

He mentions Knocked Up and Juno, and in the "real world" in both of those cases, there's a good chance that baby get aborted. But if KP's looking for more reality out of his Hollywood Movies, he's going to be waiting a long time.

[Kid Presentable]

I was just saying, the happy ending is a Hollywood device. And you can include pro-life sentiments in that happy ending. If Hollywood abandoned most of its conventions, movies would be 20 minutes long or depressing. Cheers for your thoughts, all.

[Bob]

I was just saying, the happy ending is a Hollywood device. And you can include pro-life sentiments in that happy ending. If Hollywood abandoned most of its conventions, movies would be 20 minutes long or depressing. Cheers for your thoughts, all.

see though, the fact that happy endings don't involve abortions doesn't make them pro-life. it's simply acknowledging the fact that abortions aren't happy affairs. i think you'd be hard-pressed to find a pro-choice person that would disagree with that. i mean i'm young, i'm innocent, maybe i don't know much, but i'd think that about 90% of the people that get abortions, at least, probably aren't happy about it. they obviously aren't pro-life because if they were they wouldn't be getting abortions

[Yeti]

Eraserhead's wife didn't even get an abortion. She left the little alien baby crying in his apartment.

[Kid Presentable]

see though, the fact that happy endings don't involve abortions doesn't make them pro-life. it's simply acknowledging the fact that abortions aren't happy affairs. i think you'd be hard-pressed to find a pro-choice person that would disagree with that. i mean i'm young, i'm innocent, maybe i don't know much, but i'd think that about 90% of the people that get abortions, at least, probably aren't happy about it. they obviously aren't pro-life because if they were they wouldn't be getting abortions

Saving a kid a miserable life with people who don't want it, people being stuck with kids they didn't want, the ability to avoid these things equals a real-life happy ending. Not that people celebrate it. But making the choice for long-term happiness isn't necessarily a bad thing, even if it's a somber decision to make.

[venusvenus123]

obviously hollywood can't cope with something as emtionally involved as a woman considering an abortion and nor can its audiences. it makes the studios very uncomfortable and they're just too scared with what would happen.

the abortion debate is an issue that divides america tho, so it's hardly surprising.

i don't consider high fidelity a hollywood movie. it probably had american funding tho, but the book was british and so was the director. i can't think of any american movie that has dealt with the issue... apart from eraserhead, but that's hardly mainstream!

have you seen vera drake kp?

But if you think lack of abortions in films reflects some sort of pro-life sentiment in Hollywood and a strictly business mentality,
you're mad.
really? perhaps it's difficult to prove the first part of your statement, but the second is obvious.

we just had abortion aired in an episode of Skins (http://www.e4.com/skins/), a mainstream teen drama. the girl got the abortion in the end. it's an important issue that millions of young women have to deal with so hiding it away is a bit unrealistic.

[abcdefz]

Since when has Hollywood's goal been realism? Or even responsibility?

All I'm saying is they go where the money is, but that doesn't necessarily reflect personal beliefs. Hollywood is an overwhelmingly
liberal industry, except it's largely run by people who are truly in it as a business, not an art form, and not as a social platform.


I think some folks misread my statements as if I think this is right.

God -- just try to make an overtly pro-life movie and see how fast your script is tossed in the bin. These movies have a very
romantic, crowd-pleasing way about them, because $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

[afronaut]

"I'm just saying - Hold on, Jay, cover your ears - you should get a shmashmortion at the shmashmortion clinic."

I thought Knocked Up wisely steered clear of the politically loaded nature of the content. A lesser filmmaker probably would have turned it into a message movie. And theres nothing worse than a fucking message movie.

[Dorothy Wood]

The premise of Knocked Up is ridiculous. especially the part about them falling in love. but it was very sweet and entertaining to watch.

I can't speak for Juno really, because it was a movie about a pregnant teenager and it wouldn't be a movie if she'd gotten an abortion.


Both of these characters had pretty solid support systems in which a child could be raised without much struggle (beyond the emotional). They chose to have the babies...and I don't think it's outrageous that they did.

I am pro-choice, but I think abortion should be avoided. and as far as hollywood being pro-life...I can agree that it may be a trend right now, but that always happens. movies with similar themes come out around the same time, dunno if it's a collective consciousness thing, or a studio competition thing, or what, but it's quite common.


also, Dirty Dancing has an abortion in it and everybody loves that movie!

[abcdefz]

^

Ugh = Dirty Dancing.


But even still: the abortion (if I remember right) is still a sad circumstance. Isn't it about the stigma of unwed mothers, etc.? Like it
was an abortion out of shame? Plus it was a minor character.

But I may be remembering it wrong.

KP wants a remorseless, just-for-convenience abortion in a movie (or TV), and I don't think you'll soon see a character who is supposed
to be sympathetic get one.

[afronaut]

The premise of Knocked Up is ridiculous.

What, an irresponsible adult doesn't use a condom and gets somebody pregnant? I guess the part about them falling in love is a little ridiculous.

[Dorothy Wood]

az, I don't actually know. I just remember watching it at my very christian friend's bachelorette party and at the abortion part, she goes, "see, that's why you don't have sex before marriage!" I think I choked a little on my non-alcoholic strawberry daiquiri.


as for the premise of Knocked Up, I guess I didn't mean the pregnancy part, I meant the falling in love with a stranger you don't even get along with after about 4 months is ridiculous. although I'm in love with Seth Rogen. and it's still weird to me that my favorite character from Freaks and Geeks is now super famous.

[Kid Presentable]

KP wants a remorseless, just-for-convenience abortion in a movie (or TV), and I don't think you'll soon see a character who is supposed
to be sympathetic get one.

I haven't said anything of the sort. I've intentionally tried to stop my point short at "Hollywood is one pro-life Motherfucker" because that's all I see. You connected my observation to that, so that's on you.

Anything else I've said has been for the sake of discussion; what I mentioned to Bob was all hypothetical. I never said "We need a remorseless abortion ASAP". It was just an observation, and observing Hollywood's conventional trappings in action is nothing like suggesting alternatives for them.