Talking to Terrorists

[Ali]

http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5gqNGlP72R2b2HWJbkUdtlc5N3L7g

One of Britain's most senior policemen has said the country should negotiate with al Qaida in a strategy to end its campaign of violence.

Sir Hugh Orde, head of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, said he could not think of a single terrorism campaign in history that ended without negotiation.

Sir Hugh, reportedly a front-runner to be the next commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, said that 30 years of tackling the IRA convinced him that policing - detecting plots and arresting people - was not enough alone to defeat terrorists.

He admits that negotiating with terrorists means "thinking the unthinkable" and said that some of the biggest risks his officers took were talking to people that "historically they would not have dreamed of talking to".

He cites his 2004 meeting with Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams as an example of how one-time enemies can become partners in peace.

Asked if he was saying "we should talk to al-Qaeda", Sir Hugh said: "Well that's the logic of...I don't think that's unthinkable, the question will be one of timing."

He also called for the number of police forces to be slashed from 43 to nine to better fight terrorism and warned the threat from dissident republicans in Ulster was at its greatest in five years.

He also said the idea of parachuting people from the private sector into senior policing roles was "barking mad" and said police chiefs who took the media "personally" would be finished.

On Tuesday terrorists attempted to fire-bomb a JJB sports shop in Belfast but failed after the device failed to properly detonate.

Sir Hugh said Irish terrorists still wanted to bomb the UK mainland, but lacked the capability. They were still attempting to buy weapons but were disorganised, "psychopathic" and probably numbering no more than 200 people.

I can add the ANC as a violent organisation which became peaceful when negotiations began.

Perhaps if Israel would negotiate with Hamas (especially after they won the elections) there would be fewer rockets being fired into Israel.

[funk63]

talking to terrorists is like the new black

[Burnout18]

wah wah appeasement.

[roosta]

It helped bring peace to Ireland, its definitely a good option.

[NoFenders]

Actually the IRA was tired of killing women and children. They had some heart. This is completely different.

:cool:

[saz]

no it's not completely different. and no it just wasn't the ira. there were plenty of both catholic and protestant militias and terrorist organizations.

[afronaut]

Those who refuse to talk to our enemies are just as naive and unrealistic as your typical hippie "pacifist." The only difference is at least the hippie pacifist has his heart in the right place.

These terrorists are borderline monsters, and the things they do are horrifying. It does seem unthinkable to even consider talking to them. But sooner or later, we're going to have to accept reality. There is no easy way out of this.

[NoFenders]

I feel sorry for the poor sap who trusts any of'em.

:cool:

[dugmatics]

Talking to terrorists is a waste of time. They usually don't keep their word. The only solution is to force them (by whatever means) to give up terror.

[yeahwho]

Talking to terrorists is a waste of time. They usually don't keep their word. The only solution is to force them (by whatever means) to give up terror.

by making them listen to the Beatles and digesting owsley acid.

[funk63]

Talking to terrorists is a waste of time. They usually don't keep their word. The only solution is to force them (by whatever means) to give up terror.

id agree that muslim extremists, jihads, their mindset is so fucked up that there really is no reasoning with them. the only way to destroy terrorism is to to destroy that mindset, destroy religion. too bad the bullshit is drilled into most humans heads from a young age so its kind of hard to revert it.

[yeahwho]

I think Camper van Beethoven has the right idea, perhaps we should take the terrorists bowling with the skinheads (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDB9oCgVHGw)?

[dugmatics]

id agree that muslim extremists, jihads, their mindset is so fucked up that there really is no reasoning with them. the only way to destroy terrorism is to to destroy that mindset, destroy religion. too bad the bullshit is drilled into most humans heads from a young age so its kind of hard to revert it.

Exactly, you cant reason with people who openly say they want to destroy you. Any agreement you reach with them will be temporary at best. It's called a hudna in arabic. It's mentioned in the koran with regards to muhammad and the quraysh tribe and its basically a temporary ceasefire. It is in no way a peace accord. Ideally you have to fight terror until you destroy its infrastructure or until they surrender. At the end of the day alot of these terrorists will throw their ideologies out the window to save their own skin (I'm assuming they don't care too much about the people they claim to represent).
I'm mostly talking about the Palestinian terror establishments, and my basis is the second intafada where the PA launched a terror campaign and were pretty much smashed in operation defensive shield. I dont think their ideology is any different today than it was 5, 10 or 25 years ago (the destruction of Israel) but they realize that through terror they wont be able to achieve their goals (though to my knowledge they openly support the 'resistance' and Jihadist ideologies).

[Schmeltz]

Of course you can't talk to Islamist terrorists, anymore than you can talk to the Bush administration - and the only difference is one of scale. But of course you have to talk to the Bush administration, and similarly you have to talk to terrorists. There is no simple way to undo the context that produces the kinds of horrors yielded by explosive vests or fighter-bombers; it is fantasy to pretend that you can destroy the "infrastructure" that supports either an ethnic-national terrorist movement or a transnational military-industrial complex. But in order to take into account the factors that produce terror, whether from above or below, it is necessary to negotiate, at every level, the manner in which we interact with each other. Right now the tools of negotiation are defined with cluster and suicide bombs; the task of our generation is to shift the definitive focus to more productive forms of engagement, to stop pretending that terror has more to do with ideology than with context, and with the decisions made by our own societies that produce that context.

afronaut is right to say that there is no easy way to do this, but it only makes it more difficult to pretend that it can't be done. Imagining that every Muslim in the world still identifies with the Quraysh tribe doesn't help either.

[dugmatics]

Of course you can't talk to Islamist terrorists, anymore than you can talk to the Bush administration - and the only difference is one of scale. But of course you have to talk to the Bush administration, and similarly you have to talk to terrorists. There is no simple way to undo the context that produces the kinds of horrors yielded by explosive vests or fighter-bombers; it is fantasy to pretend that you can destroy the "infrastructure" that supports either an ethnic-national terrorist movement or a transnational military-industrial complex. But in order to take into account the factors that produce terror, whether from above or below, it is necessary to negotiate, at every level, the manner in which we interact with each other. Right now the tools of negotiation are defined with cluster and suicide bombs; the task of our generation is to shift the definitive focus to more productive forms of engagement, to stop pretending that terror has more to do with ideology than with context, and with the decisions made by our own societies that produce that context.

afronaut is right to say that there is no easy way to do this, but it only makes it more difficult to pretend that it can't be done. Imagining that every Muslim in the world still identifies with the Quraysh tribe doesn't help either.

Fact is though that West Bank terror groups were paralyzed completely in the aftermath of Defensive Shield. A military solution to terror is absolutely not a fantasy. It greatly depends on that nation's willingness to be in a state of low intensity warfare and to live constantly under a relatively high level of stress and to oppress/deal with the opposing side's population on a daily basis. The same goes for the terrorist's side. They have to have the support of the people they claim to be fighting for (whether it's because they are too scared to oppose them or actually believe in their ideology) to properly function and therefore its safe to say that an industrialized army fighting a terrorist outfit does represent to an extent the wishes and aspirations of their respective peoples.
I do agree though that once you've been able to militarily defeat terror you can engage that leadership (or whoever remains) in negotiations based upon an agreed set of values and goals.

[saz]

Imagining that every Muslim in the world still identifies with the Quraysh tribe doesn't help either.

exactly, that's just outright staggering ignorance. if peace can be accomplished in northern ireland, than peace can easily be achieved in the middle east. i thought we'd NEVER see peace achieved between the warring protestant and catholic paramilitary and terrorist groups, but it became a reality.

another aspect that really bothers is me that israel always seems to get a free pass, regarding their state terror, ie killing innocent palestinians, forcing them into refugee camps, bulldozing their homes, and expanding israeli settlements into palestinian land. extreme, right-wing israeli zionism is just as dangerous as: islamic fundamentalism, the former irish protestant and catholic paramilitary groups, and radical evangelical christianity.

if peace can be accomplished in northern ireland, if we could become allies with a monster like stalin to defeat nazi germany, and if nixon could meet with mao tse-tung and normalize relations with china, than surely peace can be accomplished in the middle east.

[yeahwho]

Which is to say, education. In a sense education enlightens one to the real struggles of our planet. To have compassion one must be enlightened and to be enlightened one must move beyond the dogma of fundamentalist religion.

How to do this is tough, the USA seems ill equipped, we have our own crazy ideas and many people embrace their religion and happily wrap the flag around the Bible. They live in a land which provides the First Amendment yet they believe in teaching their kids Intelligent design (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design).

Living together as a multi-cultural open-ended spiritual community is probably impossible, but having to live in fear of violent retribution on a daily basis should be a major priority for any leader of any country to curtail. If they are not working towards that goal they have failed humanity.

[funk63]

I think Camper van Beethoven has the right idea, perhaps we should take the terrorists bowling with the skinheads (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDB9oCgVHGw)?

hey, awesome fucking song.

[dugmatics]

exactly, that's just outright staggering ignorance. if peace can be accomplished in northern ireland, than peace can easily be achieved in the middle east. i thought we'd NEVER see peace achieved between the warring protestant and catholic paramilitary and terrorist groups, but it became a reality.

another aspect that really bothers is me that israel always seems to get a free pass, regarding their state terror, ie killing innocent palestinians, forcing them into refugee camps, bulldozing their homes, and expanding israeli settlements into palestinian land. extreme, right-wing israeli zionism is just as dangerous as: islamic fundamentalism, the former irish protestant and catholic paramilitary groups, and radical evangelical christianity.

if peace can be accomplished in northern ireland, if we could become allies with a monster like stalin to defeat nazi germany, and if nixon could meet with mao tse-tung and normalize relations with china, than surely peace can be accomplished in the middle east.

The quraysh were the ones Muhammad promised to not attack and then did so after he regrouped his army. Just for clarity's sake. And who cares about who gets a free pass when??? The point is that you really cant talk to terrorists. In Israel's case the Hamas wants to wipe them off the map so Israel does militarily whatever its got to do. Thats the way you deal with them. The strategy is that eventually they'll get tire of losing and will want to come to the negotiating table with realistic expectations. As far as I can tell the mideast is gonna be in turmoil until one side gives up.

[saz]

"who cares" that israel gets a free pass despite killing innocent palestinian civilians? no, the point is that both sides are equally guilty of inciting and inflaming violence, and killing innocent people. fact.

and no, if peace can be accomplished in northern ireland, peace can be achieved in the middle east. the governments of the irish republic and great britain negotiated with many protestant and catholic terrorist groups, despite both sides wanting to annihilate each other. so, the same can be done with hamas.