I'm really starting to like this guy

[NoFenders]

Commentary: What's right with America? Plenty

By Glenn Beck
CNN

NEW YORK (CNN) -- A few days before the Fourth of July, I read a column in The Philadelphia Inquirer that said America didn't deserve to celebrate its independence this year.

It claimed that all of our so-called atrocities have shamed the memory of our founding fathers and, as a result, we should cancel our parades, put away our fireworks and all sit quietly while we atone for our sins.

I guess that was one way to go.

Another way to go would be to fire up the grills, bring the kids to the beach,and gather the family on a blanket to watch as your tax dollars ignite into colorful bursts.

I'm guessing that most of us chose the second option.

But just because I had fun with friends and family doesn't mean that I believe America is perfect. It just means that, for one day, I chose to celebrate the fact that America is still closer to perfect than any other country in the history of the world.

For 364 days a year we talk about high gas prices, crooked politicians, and how much people from one political party allegedly hate everyone from the other. But for 24 hours we get to put it all aside and marvel at how a few brave men risked their lives to stand up for what they believed in. Of course, I would prefer we celebrate that every day, but for now, or at least until that Inquirer columnist gets elected president and bans it, I'll take the one.

As someone who works in the media in New York City, I'll admit that I am part of the chorus of people who talk about our problems. But there's nothing wrong with that, so long as you also occasionally take the time to talk about the other side. And that's what I want to do now by asking the question that never seems to be of interest to the mainstream media: What's right with America?

Let's start with our much maligned economy. I'm not trying to sugarcoat it, times are definitely tough for an awful lot of families right now. But you know what? We've made it through a depression; we've made it through wars, oil shocks, and major terrorist attacks and we're still standing. In fact, we're not just standing, we're towering over the rest of the world.

Our economy is almost as big as the next four largest economies on Earth (Japan, Germany, China and Great Britain) combined. The state of California alone has an economy as large as the entire country of France. Illinois has the same GDP as all of Mexico. New York matches the entire GDP of Brazil. Florida's economy is as large as South Korea's. Texas has a GDP roughly equal to Canada's. Michigan's economy is as large as the entire country of Argentina.

It takes a lot longer to turn around an aircraft carrier than it does a dinghy, but the problem we have is with our ship's captain -- the pea-brains in Washington -- not her crew.

What's right with America? How about the way we educate our children. Sure, I complain a lot about left-wing professors and how some wealthy private universities hoard their billions while charging obscene amounts for tuition, but the truth is that our universities are always ranked among the best in the world.

Students aren't fleeing America to go to college in Japan, India, or China -- it's the other way around. We open our colleges and universities to more than 80,000 foreign professors, scholars and educators a year and we have more students in college right now than those three countries combined.

What's right with America? Our world-class universities don't require you to have an elite family name or Rockefeller-type wealth to get in. We don't care about your race, gender or nationality. You just have to be smart enough and work hard for it. What a concept, huh?

What's right with America? How about the way we treat the less fortunate? With no help from our government, Americans gave a record $306 billion to charities last year alone. We give twice as much as the next closest country and, relative to the size of our economies, we give 1,000 percent more than the French.

What's right with America? It's not just the wealthy who are generous. Two-thirds of American families making under $100,000 a year give to charity. Compassion is ingrained in our culture like no other.

What's right with America? How about our supposedly third-world health care system? We spend more on health care per person than Switzerland, Germany, Canada, or any other country you can think of. Do we still have problems? Absolutely, but don't fall for "the grass is greener" crowd; every country has health care problems.

What's right with America? We love our country. World Values Survey found that 77 percent of Americans are very proud of their nationality. That puts us in a first place tie with the Irish. Australia was next and no one else was really even close.

I could go on and on, but my point is that we don't need the so often wished for "change" in this country, we just need perspective.

While most of us inherently know that we've won the lottery by living here, we don't often think about the reasons why.

So, for at least that one day, let's just remember that America still leads the world in the principles that matter most: The rule of law, freedom of religion, equal rights, freedom from an oppressive government and, fortunately for the Philadelphia Inquirer, freedom of speech.

:cool:

[saz]

he threatened to kill michael moore on his radio show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctwqnkWdCJg).

glenn beck is a disgusting, hate-mongering lowlife who appeals to the worst common denominator..

[NoFenders]

After hearing that, I like him even more. Mike Moore is a moron who appeals to people that can't think for themselves.

You quote yourself often??



:cool:

[saz]

so, let me get this straight. you like people who threaten to kill other individuals, just because they have a different political viewpoint?

that would be like myself threatening to kill you, just because you see things differently.

you would've loved nazi germany or stalinist russia then for sure, because anyone with a different political viewpoint from the state was imprisoned, or killed.

[funk63]

Its natural to want to kill people, thats why people kill people.

[Bob]

that article basically just says "yeah, people complain about this and that, and you know what? they have a point, there are a lot of problems with it, such as these and those. but forget about all that. we're america! and we're the best country in the world!"

for example....

What's right with America? How about the way we treat the less fortunate? With no help from our government, Americans gave a record $306 billion to charities last year alone. We give twice as much as the next closest country and, relative to the size of our economies, we give 1,000 percent more than the French.

americans threw more money at the poverty problem than any other country therefore there isn't a poverty problem. next!

What's right with America? It's not just the wealthy who are generous. Two-thirds of American families making under $100,000 a year give to charity. Compassion is ingrained in our culture like no other.

i'm going to go out on a limb and say that the wealthy generally aren't generous. and yes, compassion is ingrained in our culture like no other in the sense that we have considerably less of it than in other cultures

What's right with America? How about our supposedly third-world health care system? We spend more on health care per person than Switzerland, Germany, Canada, or any other country you can think of. Do we still have problems? Absolutely, but don't fall for "the grass is greener" crowd; every country has health care problems.

again: more money = better than! no i won't elaborate! sure our health care has problems regardless, but we're america! other countries have problems too! no i won't elaborate on that either, stop asking!

this guy does not see the same america that the rest of us see

[afronaut]

Glenn Beck is just another symptom of the Death of Journalism.

[alien autopsy]

glenn beck is a little bitch.

thank god we all have this guy to tell us how great our country is

[DroppinScience]

"The Meaning of July Fourth for the Negro"


Fellow Citizens, I am not wanting in respect for the fathers of this republic. The signers of the Declaration of Independence were brave men. They were great men, too great enough to give frame to a great age. It does not often happen to a nation to raise, at one time, such a number of truly great men. The point from which I am compelled to view them is not, certainly, the most favorable; and yet I cannot contemplate their great deeds with less than admiration. They were statesmen, patriots and heroes, and for the good they did, and the principles they contended for, I will unite with you to honor their memory....

...Fellow-citizens, pardon me, allow me to ask, why am I called upon to speak here to-day? What have I, or those I represent, to do with your national independence? Are the great principles of political freedom and of natural justice, embodied in that Declaration of Independence, extended to us? and am I, therefore, called upon to bring our humble offering to the national altar, and to confess the benefits and express devout gratitude for the blessings resulting from your independence to us?

Would to God, both for your sakes and ours, that an affirmative answer could be truthfully returned to these questions! Then would my task be light, and my burden easy and delightful. For who is there so cold, that a nation's sympathy could not warm him? Who so obdurate and dead to the claims of gratitude, that would not thankfully acknowledge such priceless benefits? Who so stolid and selfish, that would not give his voice to swell the hallelujahs of a nation's jubilee, when the chains of servitude had been torn from his limbs? I am not that man. In a case like that, the dumb might eloquently speak, and the "lame man leap as an hart."

But such is not the state of the case. I say it with a sad sense of the disparity between us. I am not included within the pale of glorious anniversary! Your high independence only reveals the immeasurable distance between us. The blessings in which you, this day, rejoice, are not enjoyed in common. The rich inheritance of justice, liberty, prosperity and independence, bequeathed by your fathers, is shared by you, not by me. The sunlight that brought light and healing to you, has brought stripes and death to me. This Fourth July is yours, not mine. You may rejoice, I must mourn. To drag a man in fetters into the grand illuminated temple of liberty, and call upon him to join you in joyous anthems, were inhuman mockery and sacrilegious irony. Do you mean, citizens, to mock me, by asking me to speak to-day? If so, there is a parallel to your conduct. And let me warn you that it is dangerous to copy the example of a nation whose crimes, towering up to heaven, were thrown down by the breath of the Almighty, burying that nation in irrevocable ruin! I can to-day take up the plaintive lament of a peeled and woe-smitten people!

"By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down. Yea! we wept when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. For there, they that carried us away captive, required of us a song; and they who wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion. How can we sing the Lord's song in a strange land? If I forget thee, 0 Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth."

Fellow-citizens, above your national, tumultuous joy, I hear the mournful wail of millions! whose chains, heavy and grievous yesterday, are, to-day, rendered more intolerable by the jubilee shouts that reach them. If I do forget, if I do not faithfully remember those bleeding children of sorrow this day, "may my right hand forget her cunning, and may my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth!" To forget them, to pass lightly over their wrongs, and to chime in with the popular theme, would be treason most scandalous and shocking, and would make me a reproach before God and the world. My subject, then, fellow-citizens, is American slavery. I shall see this day and its popular characteristics from the slave's point of view. Standing there identified with the American bondman, making his wrongs mine, I do not hesitate to declare, with all my soul, that the character and conduct of this nation never looked blacker to me than on this 4th of July! Whether we turn to the declarations of the past, or to the professions of the present, the conduct of the nation seems equally hideous and revolting. America.is false to the past, false to the present, and solemnly binds herself to be false to the future. Standing with God and the crushed and bleeding slave on this occasion, I will, in the name of humanity which is outraged, in the name of liberty which is fettered, in the name of the constitution and the Bible which are disregarded and trampled upon, dare to call in question and to denounce, with all the emphasis I can command, everything that serves to perpetuate slavery Ñ the great sin and shame of America! "I will not equivocate; I will not excuse"; I will use the severest language I can command; and yet not one word shall escape me that any man, whose judgment is not blinded by prejudice, or who is not at heart a slaveholder, shall not confess to be right and just.

But I fancy I hear some one of my audience say, "It is just in this circumstance that you and your brother abolitionists fail to make a favorable impression on the public mind. Would you argue more, an denounce less; would you persuade more, and rebuke less; your cause would be much more likely to succeed." But, I submit, where all is plain there is nothing to be argued. What point in the anti-slavery creed would you have me argue? On what branch of the subject do the people of this country need light? Must I undertake to prove that the slave is a man? That point is conceded already. Nobody doubts it. The slaveholders themselves acknowledge it in the enactment of laws for their government. They acknowledge it when they punish disobedience on the part of the slave. There are seventy-two crimes in the State of Virginia which, if committed by a black man (no matter how ignorant he be), subject him to the punishment of death; while only two of the same crimes will subject a white man to the like punishment. What is this but the acknowledgment that the slave is a moral, intellectual, and responsible being? The manhood of the slave is conceded. It is admitted in the fact that Southern statute books are covered with enactments forbidding, under severe fines and penalties, the teaching of the slave to read or to write. When you can point to any such laws in reference to the beasts of the field, then I may consent to argue the manhood of the slave. When the dogs in your streets, when the fowls of the air, when the cattle on your hills, when the fish of the sea, and the reptiles that crawl, shall be unable to distinguish the slave from a brute, then will I argue with you that the slave is a man!

For the present, it is enough to affirm the equal manhood of the Negro race. Is it not astonishing that, while we are ploughing, planting, and reaping, using all kinds of mechanical tools, erecting houses, constructing bridges, building ships, working in metals of brass, iron, copper, silver and gold; that, while we are reading, writing and ciphering, acting as clerks, merchants and secretaries, having among us lawyers, doctors, ministers, poets, authors, editors, orators and teachers; that, while we are engaged in all manner of enterprises common to other men, digging gold in California, capturing the whale in the Pacific, feeding sheep and cattle on the hill-side, living, moving, acting, thinking, planning, living in families as husbands, wives and children, and, above all, confessing and worshipping the Christian's God, and looking hopefully for life and immortality beyond the grave, we are called upon to prove that we are men!

Would you have me argue that man is entitled to liberty? that he is the rightful owner of his own body? You have already declared it. Must I argue the wrongfulness of slavery? Is that a question for Republicans? Is it to be settled by the rules of logic and argumentation, as a matter beset with great difficulty, involving a doubtful application of the principle of justice, hard to be understood? How should I look to-day, in the presence of Amercans, dividing, and subdividing a discourse, to show that men have a natural right to freedom? speaking of it relatively and positively, negatively and affirmatively. To do so, would be to make myself ridiculous, and to offer an insult to your understanding. There is not a man beneath the canopy of heaven that does not know that slavery is wrong for him.

What, am I to argue that it is wrong to make men brutes, to rob them of their liberty, to work them without wages, to keep them ignorant of their relations to their fellow men, to beat them with sticks, to flay their flesh with the lash, to load their limbs with irons, to hunt them with dogs, to sell them at auction, to sunder their families, to knock out their teeth, to burn their flesh, to starve them into obedience and submission to their mastcrs? Must I argue that a system thus marked with blood, and stained with pollution, is wrong? No! I will not. I have better employment for my time and strength than such arguments would imply.

What, then, remains to be argued? Is it that slavery is not divine; that God did not establish it; that our doctors of divinity are mistaken? There is blasphemy in the thought. That which is inhuman, cannot be divine! Who can reason on such a proposition? They that can, may; I cannot. The time for such argument is passed.

At a time like this, scorching irony, not convincing argument, is needed. O! had I the ability, and could reach the nation's ear, I would, to-day, pour out a fiery stream of biting ridicule, blasting reproach, withering sarcasm, and stern rebuke. For it is not light that is needed, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake. The feeling of the nation must be quickened; the conscience of the nation must be roused; the propriety of the nation must be startled; the hypocrisy of the nation must be exposed; and its crimes against God and man must be proclaimed and denounced.

What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer; a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciation of tyrants, brass fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are, to Him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy -- a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages.There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States, at this very hour.

Go where you may, search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out every abuse, and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with me, that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival....


...Allow me to say, in conclusion, notwithstanding the dark picture I have this day presented, of the state of the nation, I do not despair of this country. There are forces in operation which must inevitably work the downfall of slavery. "The arm of the Lord is not shortened," and the doom of slavery is certain. I, therefore, leave off where I began, with hope. While drawing encouragement from "the Declaration of Independence," the great principles it contains, and the genius of American Institutions, my spirit is also cheered by the obvious tendencies of the age. Nations do not now stand in the same relation to each other that they did ages ago. No nation can now shut itself up from the surrounding world and trot round in the same old path of its fathers without interference. The time was when such could be done. Long established customs of hurtful character could formerly fence themselves in, and do their evil work with social impunity. Knowledge was then confined and enjoyed by the privileged few, and the multitude walked on in mental darkness. But a change has now come over the affairs of mankind. Walled cities and empires have become unfashionable. The arm of commerce has borne away the gates of the strong city. Intelligence is penetrating the darkest corners of the globe. It makes its pathway over and under the sea, as well as on the earth. Wind, steam, and lightning are its chartered agents. Oceans no longer divide, but link nations together. From Boston to London is now a holiday excursion. Space is comparatively annihilated. -- Thoughts expressed on one side of the Atlantic are distinctly heard on the other.

The far off and almost fabulous Pacific rolls in grandeur at our feet. The Celestial Empire, the mystery of ages, is being solved. The fiat of the Almighty, "Let there be Light," has not yet spent its force. No abuse, no outrage whether in taste, sport or avarice, can now hide itself from the all-pervading light. The iron shoe, and crippled foot of China must be seen in contrast with nature. Africa must rise and put on her yet unwoven garment. 'Ethiopia, shall, stretch. out her hand unto Ood." In the fervent aspirations of William Lloyd Garrison, I say, and let every heart join in saying it:

God speed the year of jubilee
The wide world o'er!
When from their galling chains set free,
Th' oppress'd shall vilely bend the knee,
And wear the yoke of tyranny
Like brutes no more.
That year will come, and freedom's reign,
To man his plundered rights again
Restore.

God speed the day when human blood
Shall cease to flow!
In every clime be understood,
The claims of human brotherhood,
And each return for evil, good,
Not blow for blow;
That day will come all feuds to end,
And change into a faithful friend
Each foe.

God speed the hour, the glorious hour,
When none on earth
Shall exercise a lordly power,
Nor in a tyrant's presence cower;
But to all manhood's stature tower,
By equal birth!
That hour will come, to each, to all,
And from his Prison-house, to thrall
Go forth.

Until that year, day, hour, arrive,
With head, and heart, and hand I'll strive,
To break the rod, and rend the gyve,
The spoiler of his prey deprive --
So witness Heaven!
And never from my chosen post,
Whate'er the peril or the cost,
Be driven.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2927t.html

[funk63]

m

[NoFenders]

so, let me get this straight. you like people who threaten to kill other individuals, just because they have a different political viewpoint?



I'm pretty sure you like people who have done the same thing. Political journalism isn't Happy Land.

Besides, Mikey Moore is a moron. I really doubt Beck was cleaning a gun that night. :rolleyes:



:cool:

[Bob]

and to be fair, i seem to recall "stupid white men" having a chapter called "antonin scalia must die". i can't remember if it was actually about wanting to kill (or at least rejoice in the death of) scalia, but it could have been.

anyway i think there are more things about glenn beck to complain about than that

[NoFenders]

What's right with America? How about the way we treat the less fortunate? With no help from our government, Americans gave a record $306 billion to charities last year alone. We give twice as much as the next closest country and, relative to the size of our economies, we give 1,000 percent more than the French.

americans threw more money at the poverty problem than any other country therefore there isn't a poverty problem. next!

Wow, you really do hear and see only what you want.

What's right with America? It's not just the wealthy who are generous. Two-thirds of American families making under $100,000 a year give to charity. Compassion is ingrained in our culture like no other.

i'm going to go out on a limb and say that the wealthy generally aren't generous. and yes, compassion is ingrained in our culture like no other in the sense that we have considerably less of it than in other cultures

I guess you don't know any wealthy people. Nice stereotypical mindset you have though. Your compassion remark sounds a bit needy.

What's right with America? How about our supposedly third-world health care system? We spend more on health care per person than Switzerland, Germany, Canada, or any other country you can think of. Do we still have problems? Absolutely, but don't fall for "the grass is greener" crowd; every country has health care problems.

again: more money = better than! no i won't elaborate! sure our health care has problems regardless, but we're america! other countries have problems too! no i won't elaborate on that either, stop asking!

skitzo comes to mind

this guy does not see the same america that the rest of us see

"The rest of us" = BBMB?

The point is that America is still better than any other country. Even with people bitching and moaning that wrold will end if America doesn't do more for more people. What I find really funny is that you have labled America as a country that just throws money at it's problems. Sometimes it's hard to understand exactly what direction the wind is blowing in your head.

:cool:

[NoFenders]

and to be fair, i seem to recall "stupid white men" having a chapter called "antonin scalia must die". i can't remember if it was actually about wanting to kill (or at least rejoice in the death of) scalia, but it could have been.



Did you read the book???





:cool:

[Bob]

The point is that America is still better than any other country.

i really don't think that's true? i mean this is the only country in the civilized world where people have to make the choice between spending money on food or medicine. that is not a problem that other residents of the developed world have. but this is a superior state of affairs than in all the other countries because the alternative is having people with money having to wait in line with people who don't for treatment? that isn't very compassionate.

don't get me wrong, i like living in america, it's a better place to live than large chunks of the rest of the world, but we really need to get over ourselves and realize that there are other chunks of the world that are also nice places to live and that have freedom. we hold ourselves out as this great beacon of freedom and civilization, better than any other country in the world but i just don't think that's true. i'm not even saying that we're worse than other countries (which may be true but i can't be bothered to find evidence of that that you'd acknowledge), i'm just saying that there are countries out there that are at least just as good as us (in terms of living conditions) and it's really amazingly arrogant to put them all down as we constantly do, especially considering how flimsy the evidence of that is. america's not a third world country but fuck, neither is, say, england, or canada.

[saz]

I'm pretty sure you like people who have done the same thing. Political journalism isn't Happy Land.


Besides, Mikey Moore is a moron. I really doubt Beck was cleaning a gun that night. :rolleyes:

no, you're dead wrong. i don't like anyone who takes to the radio or television airwaves and threatens to kill another human being. speak for yourself only.

and that's your opinion, however moore doesn't spew hatred, xenophobia, homophobia, nor champion war. he takes on both democrats and republicans. and you're missing the point. threatening to kill someone is not only illegal, but morally disgusting and inexcusable.

and i hate to break it to you, but america isn't the greatest country in the world.

[afronaut]

The point is that America is still better than any other country. Even with people bitching and moaning that wrold will end if America doesn't do more for more people.

http://www.macleans.ca/canada/national/article.jsp?content=20080625_50113_50113

Canada is seeming pretty nice these days.

But they're an evil socialist welfare state, so it can't be good to live there, right?

[NoFenders]

i really don't think that's true? i mean this is the only country in the civilized world where people have to make the choice between spending money on food or medicine. that is not a problem that other residents of the developed world have. but this is a superior state of affairs than in all the other countries because the alternative is having people with money having to wait in line with people who don't for treatment? that isn't very compassionate.

don't get me wrong, i like living in america, it's a better place to live than large chunks of the rest of the world, but we really need to get over ourselves and realize that there are other chunks of the world that are also nice places to live and that have freedom. we hold ourselves out as this great beacon of freedom and civilization, better than any other country in the world but i just don't think that's true. i'm not even saying that we're worse than other countries (which may be true but i can't be bothered to find evidence of that that you'd acknowledge), i'm just saying that there are countries out there that are at least just as good as us (in terms of living conditions) and it's really amazingly arrogant to put them all down as we constantly do, especially considering how flimsy the evidence of that is. america's not a third world country but fuck, neither is, say, england, or canada.

Understood. I agree with a lot of that. However I don't think our problem is the country. It's the people. And not the people in charge, as much as the people abusing the system. America wasn't designed to be a free palce to sit around and watch Springer. It's here for the strong to get stronger. I see very few strong people day to day. But they are out there, and they rarely ever ask anyone for anything. They get it themselves, and thank god we live in a country where if we want it, we can get it. Not by asking, but by seeking and doing it ourselves.

My greatest gift, was this piece of advice.

"You are your only problem you will ever have, and you are your only solution."

Luckily I live in America.


:cool:

[NoFenders]

speak for yourself only.

and i hate to break it to you, but america isn't the greatest country in the world.

;)




:cool:

[saz]

http://www.macleans.ca/canada/national/article.jsp?content=20080625_50113_50113

Canada is seeming pretty nice these days.

But they're an evil socialist welfare state, so it can't be good to live there, right?

i posted these in the fisa thread, but they seem pretty relevant here as well:

lewis black on broadway talking about how america isn't #1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mCDZMWVWuc)

bill maher: stop saying we're #1, and start acting like it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcz_NHAFGS0)

[NoFenders]

i posted these in the fisa thread, but they seem pretty relevant here as well:

lewis black on broadway talking about how america isn't #1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mCDZMWVWuc)

bill maher: stop saying we're #1, and start acting like it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcz_NHAFGS0)


The citizens need to act like it. Including Bill Maher.




:cool:

[Schmeltz]

The point is that America is still better than any other country.

But that's nothing but your own subjective opinion. By a much more objective standard, like those of life expectancy, education, and GDP as measured in the Human Development Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_development_index), America performs more poorly than other industrialized nations. Of course the USA still maintains a rating commensurate with its generally high quality of life, as would only be expected, but when you say "better than any other country" you're just talking out of your ass. Kind of like Glenn Beck and his clumsy, facile, insubstantial aphorisms.

[Bob]

It's here for the strong to get stronger.

see that worries me. what about those who are not strong? i don't like people who abuse the system and collect welfare rather than seeking employment any more than you do (actually i probably do like them a little more than you do, you really seem to have it out for them), but what about the people who work full time and are still below the poverty line? the point of welfare isn't to make it so that people can coast through life without having to work (i would question how comfortable of a lifestyle these people have, but i won't dispute the fact that they're out there), it's designed to help out the people who, try as they might, can't make it on their own.

granted, this system will attract people who want to abuse it, who want to collect government assistance rather than work and then complain when the government threatens to take it away, but not everyone who collects welfare is like that. there are people out there who work full time jobs for shit pay, they work their asses off, collect a paycheck, and still don't make enough money to keep a home, feed their family, and receive treatment for when they get sick (which i still maintain is something that nobody in a modernized country should have to pay for in the first place, certainly not the amount that we have to pay, anyway). without welfare, they'd be homeless. what happens to them in your utopia, where public assistance doesn't exist, and anyone who can't make it on their own either has to pray for compassion from the wealthy or starve? what i'm saying is that the the system will attract leeches, but cutting the system off entirely will kill more than just the leeches, it will kill the hardworking people that the system is designed to protect. you'd rather have that than leeches? are you really suffering that much from your taxes?

i'm really trying to not be antagonistic here but it's hard because your worldview makes my stomach hurt. you and many other people have this idea that success is something that everyone can achieve and that if anyone fails to do so it's their own fault and nobody should be required to help them (i note that generally you only see this worldview in people who've already made it) but i don't think that's true. there are jobs out there that will not sustain a healthy lifestyle. even if you worked two of them, you wouldn't have enough to live like a human being (ie, in a house, with food and water, and maybe even running water and heat in the winter if you're lucky). even if it's possible for someone with one of these jobs to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed, what about everyone else that's stuck with them? the jobs exist, people need to do them, what happens to those people?

in short, what i'm saying is that i don't think everyone can make it. i don't think there's enough success to go around (especially with the very strong people hogging it all). i think that the way our society is designed, people are always going to be at the bottom of the barrel and they're going to have a hell of a time getting out. most of them won't, they're going to stay there. what happens to them?

[QueenAdrock]

I loved living in America, but living in Canada is pretty fucking sweet. For one, I don't have to choose between paying for health care and tuition like I did back home. I threw my back out last March and had to pay $500 to get it fixed because my insurance company didn't want to pay out on it. I threw it out this past weekend and am going to see a physical therapist tomorrow for free. If I was in America, I'd be freaking out about how I was going to save for school if I had to pay co-pays and deductibles and hell, I'd probably just pump myself full of Tylenol and hope for the best. I like how I can actually take care of my health here, rather than choosing between my health and my education. To boot, I pay the same amount in taxes as I did in America.

Anyways, I do love America and feel like it has much to offer the world, but they're far from #1 on a lot of issues. It's easy to see that once you've lived outside of America, or maybe even done research on other countries.

[NoFenders]

But that's nothing but your own subjective opinion. By a much more objective standard, like those of life expectancy, education, and GDP as measured in the Human Development Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_development_index), America performs more poorly than other industrialized nations. Of course the USA still maintains a rating commensurate with its generally high quality of life, as would only be expected, but when you say "better than any other country" you're just talking out of your ass. Kind of like Glenn Beck and his clumsy, facile, insubstantial aphorisms.

Why would high qaulity of life be so expected if all those other things you mentioned are so dismal?? If people are dying young and dumb, does that make the quality of life grand?? I don't understand your argument. Other than people are out of shape and don't read enough. I don't believe that our healthcare needs an overhaul, and the schools have been controlled by dems for ages. I made it out of where I was by myself.

America is better than any other country becasue the fact still reamins you can do whatever you want here. You can bitch bitch bitch all ya want. It's a free country.

:cool:

[NoFenders]

see that worries me. what about those who are not strong? i don't like people who abuse the system and collect welfare rather than seeking employment any more than you do (actually i probably do like them a little more than you do, you really seem to have it out for them),

You're right. I can't stand'em. Freeloaders are shit in my opinion.

but what about the people who work full time and are still below the poverty line? the point of welfare isn't to make it so that people can coast through life without having to work (i would question how comfortable of a lifestyle these people have, but i won't dispute the fact that they're out there), it's designed to help out the people who, try as they might, can't make it on their own.

Those people are what the system is for.

granted, this system will attract people who want to abuse it, who want to collect government assistance rather than work and then complain when the government threatens to take it away, but not everyone who collects welfare is like that.there are people out there who work full time jobs for shit pay, they work their asses off, collect a paycheck, and still don't make enough money to keep a home, feed their family, and receive treatment for when they get sick (which i still maintain is something that nobody in a modernized country should have to pay for in the first place, certainly not the amount that we have to pay, anyway). without welfare, they'd be homeless. what happens to them in your utopia, where public assistance doesn't exist, and anyone who can't make it on their own either has to pray for compassion from the wealthy or starve? what i'm saying is that the the system will attract leeches, but cutting the system off entirely will kill more than just the leeches, it will kill the hardworking people that the system is designed to protect. you'd rather have that than leeches? are you really suffering that much from your taxes?

Not at all. I do realise that the system is in place to help people. I agree that there should be a temporary process that people can jump on when hard times are upon them. However, it's not to be a way of life. It was designed to be a helping hand until the person could work their way up the ladder, or even get a better job by going to school and working harder. It seems though, that once people get handouts, they look for more instantly. And they never want to give them up. So, this process, is really helping only a few in the long run.It just enables the lazy to be even more so.It's actually gotten so bad that political scam artists have found a way to dip their pen in the ink as well. There should at least be some monitoring and job aid for these people. If there already is, it's being controlled by a bunch or morons.

i'm really trying to not be antagonistic here but it's hard because your worldview makes my stomach hurt. you and many other people have this idea that success is something that everyone can achieve and that if anyone fails to do so it's their own fault and nobody should be required to help them (i note that generally you only see this worldview in people who've already made it) but i don't think that's true. there are jobs out there that will not sustain a healthy lifestyle. even if you worked two of them, you wouldn't have enough to live like a human being (ie, in a house, with food and water, and maybe even running water and heat in the winter if you're lucky). even if it's possible for someone with one of these jobs to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed, what about everyone else that's stuck with them? the jobs exist, people need to do them, what happens to those people?

We all pick our jobs. There's nobody that told you what you had to be when you were in school.There are many illeagals here that make enough money to support 10 people, and then send the other half of their check to Mexico. I don't buy that there's not enough work or money in this country. That's bull shit. If you really want to work, you can. It might not be the job you feel you deserve, but it will be a job with a paycheck in the end. And by working that job until you can afford an education, (since most dropped out or didn't give a shit then) or even work your way up, you can then take part of the great American Dream by creating your own destiny. Instead of waiting for the gov to tell you where to go to get your cheese. People are too proud these days though. Everyone deserves what everyone else has. It's pathetic.

in short, what i'm saying is that i don't think everyone can make it. i don't think there's enough success to go around (especially with the very strong people hogging it all). i think that the way our society is designed, people are always going to be at the bottom of the barrel and they're going to have a hell of a time getting out. most of them won't, they're going to stay there. what happens to them?

They try harder. There is enough success to go around. But that really depends on what success is to the individual.Strong people don't live forever, and they can't have all the ideas. People will only have a hard time getting out of the bottom, as long as there's somebody keeping them in there. I don't think you have enough faith in the human being. I don't really blame them (system whores) for their ways. It's actually kind of sad. They're told from young ages they'll never be anything, but here's a way to survive. They fall into a habbit. We're all creatures of habbit. I can honestly understand their thought process with this.But I can't understand why they wouldn't finally wake up and want something better. And do whatever it took to get something better for thier family. My great grand parents had nothing when they came here. Nothing!! Clothes and 4 mouths to feed was all they had. Did anyone look for a check then??? No, thye looked for work. They worked their ass off 7 days a week, 16 hours a day. Why?? So they could provide for their family, and live in the best country in the world. The country that would allow their children opportunity to become whatever they wanted to be, as long as they worked at it. This basic concept of life here is gone. Nobody wants to work for anything. Everyone looks for what they feel they deserve, when in reality, the only thing any of us deserve to get, is a kick in the ass.

This welfare system isn't about helping the less fortunate anymore. If you truely belive that, count the satellite dishes and expensive cars in the projects here, and the whitetrash trailers there. The gov today is almost like a parent. A parent that would allow their kids to live and eat in their home until they're 60 without ever working a job in their life.




:cool:

[NoFenders]

It's easy to see that once you've lived outside of America, or maybe even done research on other countries.

Well seing as though I've done both, it's easy for me to see the exact opposite. Besides, comparing Canada and the US, copmpared to the rest of the world is like comparing Diet Coke and Coke Zero. Not much difference at all really.


:cool:

[QueenAdrock]

Yeah, other than the fact that Canada has free universal health care, no death penalty, higher gun control, gay marriage, lower crime rates, lax laws about downloading and marijuana use, affordable higher education, full maternity benefits to new mothers, no government spying on you via FISA, you're right. They're practically the same thing. :rolleyes:

[NoFenders]

Wow, such a huge deal compared to the rest of the worlds drama.You've missed the point yet again. Opportunity is the name of the game. Everything else is trivial. Everything else!!


:cool:

[QueenAdrock]

It is a huge deal, if you stack the US against Canada, the US against France, Great Britain, Germany, etc. US is eons behind the rest of the civilized world. But you're going on now about opportunities? What the fuck does that have to do with anything? The whole world has opportunities. Opportunities for happiness, well-being, HEALTH, jobs. Canada has more opportunities for people to achieve that goal than the US does, the US's system is built so those who were lucky enough to be born into wealth stay there, and it's hard for those who are poorer to make their way in the world. Take for example, the kid who is born to a family of doctors. Those doctors pay their way through everything, boarding school, bachelors degrees, masters degrees. How about the kid who is born to poorer parents? They have to go to the local school, deal with a worse neighborhood and violence that's around there, and if the kid ever does decide to go to college, he doesn't have enough money to attend.

Now's where the differences step in. In Canada, it's cheap to go to school. There are better funding opportunities here too. So everyone has the opportunity to make something of themselves, if they want. In America, it's expensive to go to school. My undergraduate tuition was $8,000 a year (not including food, room and board, extra fees, books, etc). That was the state school. I had to be miserable and work my ass off and live at home just so I could make my way through school. And there were plenty of my friends who COULDN'T live at home (their parents moved away), and they simply could not afford to go to school and pay rent in our area at the same time. So, they had no opportunities.

In other countries, there are opportunities for EVERYONE to be happy, not just those who are lucky to be born into wealth. I know what it's like to work my ass off to get to where I want to be. I struggle with a lot of student debt just to be where I am today. However, I'm not so narrow-sighted that I say "America has the best opportunities and if people want to make something of themselves, they can!" because that's not true. I was LUCKY that my parents allowed me to stay with them so I could afford college, that's how I made something of myself. Some people aren't that lucky, and there's not enough opportunities in America to allow them to do what they want.

I don't understand your infatuation with America's "opportunities" when in fact, there are less there than there are in other countries. My example was just of education, but what about soon-to-be parents that can't give up their jobs? America makes you choose between raising the child OR your job. Other countries give you the opportunity to keep your job and be paid until the child is older. So what "opportunities" does America have that other countries do not?

[QueenAdrock]

PS, I sure hope you aren't Christian, either. I know Jesus would be disgusted with your refusal to help those in need/who are poorer than you. Jesus was a liberal.

[Bob]

We all pick our jobs. There's nobody that told you what you had to be when you were in school.There are many illeagals here that make enough money to support 10 people, and then send the other half of their check to Mexico. I don't buy that there's not enough work or money in this country. That's bull shit. If you really want to work, you can. It might not be the job you feel you deserve, but it will be a job with a paycheck in the end. And by working that job until you can afford an education, (since most dropped out or didn't give a shit then) or even work your way up, you can then take part of the great American Dream by creating your own destiny. Instead of waiting for the gov to tell you where to go to get your cheese. People are too proud these days though. Everyone deserves what everyone else has. It's pathetic.



i really don't think that's true. i think a lot of low wage workers are really truly properly stuck in their shitty lives, very few of them have the opportunity to break out. if you have no education, no marketable job skills, you're stuck in the low wage labor market with all the other uneducated unskilled workers, working at a job that doesn't even pay you enough to make your rent and feed your family without public assistance, how do you save up enough to get an education or work your way up? that's great that your ancestors did it (or at least built a nice enough nest to let you do it), really it is and i mean that sincerely, but it's an incredibly hard path to walk, and i just don't think it's wide enough for everyone to fit on.

i don't see how your average low wage worker is to be expected to afford an education. education is expensive as balls these days. when i get out of law school, i'll be lucky if i find a lawyer job, much less a well paying lawyer job (i can elaborate on this if you want but i won't waste words now), and even if i do, roughly $1,000 per month of my check is going to go towards paying off my student loans. and i'm privileged! my parents are comfortably middle class, they saved enough to pay for my undergraduate education, i decided to do law school on top of that, which i'm bearing the risk of on my own (though i imagine my parents could bail me out to some extent if i fall, but i'm hoping it doesn't come to that)

how is your average low wage worker supposed to do get an education and turn that into a profitable job? when the minimum wage isn't even enough to get you above the poverty line, how are you supposed to save up enough to go to college (god help you if you have kids to feed), find a good job (a college education isn't really a guarantee of that these days) and pay off your loans when you get out (sucks for you if you couldn't get a scholarship)? maybe a few can do it, but do you really believe that every single of one of them really truly has the opportunity? could every last one of them lift themselves out at the same time?

i'm having a hard time articulating myself because i'm a little drunk but my basic point of points is that the way our society is structrued life sucks for people at the bottom (but not as much as it would suck if it were structured the way i think you want it to be structured) because they're stuck at the bottom, because there isn't enough room at the top or even the middle for everyone. there are always going to be people at the bottom. these jobs that don't pay living wages, that are incredibly difficult to break out of? they need to be done. maybe you don't have to do them, maybe any one single individual doesn't have to do them (for some individuals, that's debatable...), but they have to be done by someone and most of the people that are stuck doing them are stuck at the bottom and i just don't see why life should be made impossible for them.

i really think that this whole "everyone can make it and live the american dream" idea is just a fiction entertained by people who have already made it, and i think that the experience of the 20th century in europe and america has been a realization that it's actually a fiction, thus the slow, begrudging shift towards the welfare state.

sorry to keep selectively quoting you by the way. i don't even really have an explanation for it, i just do it. thanks for not calling me out on it yet

[NoFenders]

I don't understand your infatuation with America's "opportunities" when in fact, there are less there than there are in other countries.

Good lord, you really have no clue.


:cool:

[NoFenders]

i really don't think that's true. i think a lot of low wage workers are really truly properly stuck in their shitty lives, very few of them have the opportunity to break out. if you have no education, no marketable job skills, you're stuck in the low wage labor market with all the other uneducated unskilled workers, working at a job that doesn't even pay you enough to make your rent and feed your family without public assistance, how do you save up enough to get an education or work your way up? that's great that your ancestors did it (or at least built a nice enough nest to let you do it), really it is and i mean that sincerely, but it's an incredibly hard path to walk, and i just don't think it's wide enough for everyone to fit on.

i don't see how your average low wage worker is to be expected to afford an education. education is expensive as balls these days. when i get out of law school, i'll be lucky if i find a lawyer job, much less a well paying lawyer job (i can elaborate on this if you want but i won't waste words now), and even if i do, roughly $1,000 per month of my check is going to go towards paying off my student loans. and i'm privileged! my parents are comfortably middle class, they saved enough to pay for my undergraduate education, i decided to do law school on top of that, which i'm bearing the risk of on my own (though i imagine my parents could bail me out to some extent if i fall, but i'm hoping it doesn't come to that)

how is your average low wage worker supposed to do get an education and turn that into a profitable job? when the minimum wage isn't even enough to get you above the poverty line, how are you supposed to save up enough to go to college (god help you if you have kids to feed), find a good job (a college education isn't really a guarantee of that these days) and pay off your loans when you get out (sucks for you if you couldn't get a scholarship)? maybe a few can do it, but do you really believe that every single of one of them really truly has the opportunity? could every last one of them lift themselves out at the same time?

i'm having a hard time articulating myself because i'm a little drunk but my basic point of points is that the way our society is structrued life sucks for people at the bottom (but not as much as it would suck if it were structured the way i think you want it to be structured) because they're stuck at the bottom, because there isn't enough room at the top or even the middle for everyone. there are always going to be people at the bottom. these jobs that don't pay living wages, that are incredibly difficult to break out of? they need to be done. maybe you don't have to do them, maybe any one single individual doesn't have to do them (for some individuals, that's debatable...), but they have to be done by someone and most of the people that are stuck doing them are stuck at the bottom and i just don't see why life should be made impossible for them.

i really think that this whole "everyone can make it and live the american dream" idea is just a fiction entertained by people who have already made it, and i think that the experience of the 20th century in europe and america has been a realization that it's actually a fiction, thus the slow, begrudging shift towards the welfare state.

sorry to keep selectively quoting you by the way. i don't even really have an explanation for it, i just do it. thanks for not calling me out on it yet

No problemo.
I just feel that if you truely want something, that you have to bet the farm to get it.And by betting the farm I mean to have the desire and devotion to get it by all means. There's not many other places (if any at all) that you can do that and have a sincere chance to achieve it, better than here.And also, it wasn't just my grandparents that made it happen for themselves. It was millions of peoples grandparents. It didn't provide me a nest of opportunity, it provided me a chance to do something for myself. It provided me with inspiration. Nothing more. The minimum wage isn't great pay, but it's something to start with. I'f you work at a McDs for long enough, you can actually make some money. If you have the want to get something better out of life, you can do it. Nobody can hpld you down but yourself. People lay blame on others constantly.It's never their fault that they didn't get an education, and it's certainly not their fault they can't get a job. Bullshit! If you have a brain and working limbs, you can start the process of success. But see, nobody wants to work for it. The only secret to success is yourself. There's no gov anywhere that will hand that to you. You have to want it. If somebody is handing you food and money for doing nothing, you'll never break out. You'll always stay at the bottom.Until, the food or little bit of money isn't enough. My point is, they are held down by the gov by not getting a kick in the ass to do something for themselves. As I said before, welfare is needed to help people get back on their feet, but it's not meant to be a way of life. Especially not here.

:cool:

[QueenAdrock]

Good lord, you really have no clue.


:cool:

Good lord, you really have no clue that other countries have as many, if not more, opportunities as the United States. I feel sorry for your narrow world view that only tells you AMERICA RULEZ!!!1 But I guess that's what you have to expect from a Glenn Beck supporter.

There's not many other places (if any at all) that you can do that and have a sincere chance to achieve it, better than here

Explain why you think this. You can't just say "HEY AMERICA PROVIDES OPPORTUNITIES! THE ONLY ONE HOLDING YOU BACK FROM YOUR OWN SUCCESS IS YOU!" and not back it up. Why do you think they can achieve their life's ambitions better in AMERICA than other places? Hmmm? It's easier to get an education where education is cheaper (hello, many countries of the EU have FREE higher education), it's easier to get ahead when you don't have to pay $140 a month in health insurance (not including deductibles and copays if you actually have to go to a doctor), it's easier to have a child in a place that gives you money during that time you're not working and are instead raising your child, etc.

What makes America so goddamn great, and what gives them MORE opportunities there? As I've explained, there are other countries that provide more opportunities for people to be successful and happy; America makes it very, very hard because of that "tough shit" mentality.

I can't believe you honestly, truly think that people who are working two low-income jobs to support a family in the ghetto are there because they don't have the "will and determination" like other people do. Some people can live out the American dream and pull themselves up by their bootstraps (hell, I did it), but sometimes that's not enough. How about a girl on this board who had to choose between financing a $20,000 broken arm and her education? She wasn't offered health insurance through her job until 6 months down the line, and she had an accident. If she was living in any other first-world country, she wouldn't have to choose between her education and her health. She's paying off that debt now, and on top of rent, utilities, bills, insurance, food, and other necessities, she BARELY makes ends meet. She desparately wants to go back to school, but can't afford to. But I guess that's HER fault, right? Her fault that she can't get a better paying job that doesn't require a bachelors, her fault that her insurance is so expensive, her fault that the food she buys is rising in price, her fault that the housing market is so expensive where she lives, her fault that she broke her arm and wanted to get it fixed, her fault for the tuition rates to be so high. I understand in personal responsibility, but in situations like that, it's just shitty. It's damn near impossible to pull yourself out of that, and once you do, you're pretty goddamn old. I admire her for her working her ass off to pay all her bills, and I would NEVER have the nerve to tell her something like, "Well, you are where you are only because you made it that way." Then again, I have sympathy and know that the world isn't black-and-white, but shades of gray.

[NoFenders]

You can't just say "HEY AMERICA PROVIDES OPPORTUNITIES! THE ONLY ONE HOLDING YOU BACK FROM YOUR OWN SUCCESS IS YOU!" and not back it up.

Myself and many others back it up with action every day.The action of seeking out what's on my list of goals. Back it up,that's a laugh.


Why do you think they can achieve their life's ambitions better in AMERICA than other places? Hmmm?

Because it always has been a land of opportunity. There's nobody here saying you can't do what you want.Opporunity is a one shot deal. You don't need multiple opportunities to make one great one. It's what you do with one single opportunity that defines you and the rest of your life. Sure, there's all kinds of people in all kinds of places doing all kinds of things, but only here can you really come from nothing and be something in the end. That's the reason people have been dying to get in here since they heard of America.

It's easier to get an education where education is cheaper (hello, many countries of the EU have FREE higher education), it's easier to get ahead when you don't have to pay $140 a month in health insurance (not including deductibles and copays if you actually have to go to a doctor), it's easier to have a child in a place that gives you money during that time you're not working and are instead raising your child, etc.

Cheap education is great. I'm all for it. Health Insurance is just part of the deal here. You get what you pay for. I know many many people (older than you) that left their countries, and are glad they did, because if they didn't, they'd have died a long time ago with their healthcare system, but hey, at least it'd be free.
Having a child and getting a check for doing so. Hmmmmm, reminds me of something. Yeah, I can picture the roads packed with poor children. Seriously. You don't spend much time around people who abuse the system I can tell.


What makes America so goddamn great, and what gives them MORE opportunities there? You're all talk, no substance.

You're a full time Canuck now, is that right?? "Them/there". I thought you were American?? I guess that's all in the past now huh?? Officially Canadian?? Just askin.

Anyway, You obvioulsy don't know about the people who are actually dying to get in this place. Is that enough of a clue to give some subsatnce to my view?

I can't believe you honestly, truly think that people who are working two low-income jobs to support a family in the ghetto are there because they don't have the "will and determination" like other people do. Some people can live out the American dream and pull themselves up by their bootstraps (hell, I did it),

You did??? What was your dream?? How did you do it?? Where did you start, and where did you end up??

but sometimes that's not enough. How about a girl on this board who had to choose between financing a $20,000 broken arm and her education? She wasn't offered health insurance through her job until 6 months down the line, and she had an accident. If she was living in any other first-world country, she wouldn't have to choose between her job and her health. She's paying off that debt now, and on top of rent, utilities, bills, insurance, food, and other necessities, she BARELY makes ends meet. She desparately wants to go back to school, but can't afford to. But I guess that's HER fault, right? Her fault that she can't get a better paying job that doesn't require a bachelors,

Yeah, that sucks. It reminds me of when I broke my arm. Living in Colorado. Had a sponsor for snowboarding. Everything was great, until that final blow to the arm. Well, I had no insurnace. I had no job to speak of, other than working a chair lift in the winter and haulling golf clubs in the summer(shit pay but I got free lift tickets).Well, the day finally came when I got the first bill. I about shit my pants. I wanted to shoot somebody, but then I realised I was my problem. The goverment didn't tell me things would be different. I had no expectations but those of my own.I was wrong. I have no education other than a highschool diploma. I had no money. I had very little to come home to. I made things happen. I looked for somethig that paid whatever it paid. I then worked late hours cleaning silverware. I then got a job, with a auction house. I learned everything that there was to be learned. I took that experience and got a job for the city of Chicago crushing towed and abandoned vehicles. I was making some decent money, but knew that I wanted more. I saved for my liscense in Insurance. It's was about 3k that I needed for class and tests. After that I had to find a job. Back to ground zero. Now it's been 7 yrs later, and guess what, I'm hitting marks that nobody has come close to. I could have sat and waited for something better, sure. But that doesn't get it done.

her fault that her insurance is so expensive, her fault that the food she buys is rising in price, her fault that the housing market is so expensive where she lives, her fault that she broke her arm and wanted to get it fixed. I understand in personal responsibility, but in situations like that, it's just shitty. It's damn near impossible to pull yourself out of that, and once you do, you're pretty goddamn old.

The sooner she starts, the younger she'll be when she gets it done.Then again, she could just take your advice and wish for better things. I do feel sorry for this girl to some extent. But not really. It's a broken arm. My sister takes care of her husband who was hit with the butt of a gun in a bar.She had to quit her job for the first few years to take care of him. He can't speak. He can't walk, he can't even go to the bathroom. She's now back at work. Luckily for them, he did have insurance. But it only covered so much. She has had to pick up the rest. The rest being huge figures annually. Well, guess what she was able to do?? She's now the head of HR at a very well known hotel chain. She makes huge money and is getting out of debt. Why?? Because she realised she was the only one that could make things better. Better for her, and him, and everyone else around her. She decided. She didn't get shit from the gov, she only got it from herself. That's just one story. I could go on about the people who were killed in my life, and the ones they left behind. Wifes,kids, family, and friends. And those stories about how they lifted themselves up to higher ground because they wanted to and believed they could.And how in this country it's possible to do just that. If you don't believe that, then America is not the place for you. You can get your handouts elsewhere. Thanks.

I admire her for her working her ass off to pay all her bills, and I would NEVER have the nerve to tell her something like, "Well, you are where you are only because you made it that way." Then again, I have sympathy and know that the world isn't black-and-white, but shades of gray.

Well if she's working to pay off her bills, she's on her way, just like I was. She doesn't need a degree to make money. I know guys with millions who don't even have a GED. All they had was desire. That will get you very far in this country. The desire to succeed. Some people talk, and some people walk. You know the difference when you see it.

The way you speak of this girl, seems like you have her pegged to be poor for her entire life. You give no sign that she can do better, and is. You make it out to be the end, because of a broken arm. Well, I'll tell ya this. This could be the best thing that happened to her. Most successful people need a situation just like that, to turn things around. She'll never want to be in the situation again, and she'll make sure she never is. Good for her. I truely am happy that she's on her way. It just goes to show what's possible in this wonderful country of ours.

:cool:

[QueenAdrock]

Just as I thought. All talk, no substance.

You have not explained why people have "better opportunities" in America versus Canada, the UK, France, all of Scandinavia, etc. You just say "because they can. It's America." Great.

Luckily for them, he did have insurance. But it only covered so much. She has had to pick up the rest. The rest being huge figures annually. Well, guess what she was able to do?? She's now the head of HR at a very well known hotel chain. She makes huge money and is getting out of debt.

Yup, it does only cover so much. She's making big money and getting out of debt, but she could have done it MUCH SOONER in any other country. He could have had insurance that would have covered everything, and he would have been able to have a free caretaker that would have come into their household and she wouldn't have had to quit her job to do so. You seem to think that struggling and overcoming things is the "American dream"? Well, in other countries, their dreams are NOT to struggle, but to do well from the get-go. If you have problems with health, it won't hold you back. Wouldn't it have been great if you didn't even have to deal with paying off your broken arm? You would have been on track with your plans and goals and you wouldn't have to choose between the two. That's precisely what I mean. You've proven my point wonderfully.

I've gotten to where I am by working very hard and taking out a tremendous amount of loans (since education is so goddamn expensive, I get to work my way out of debt for years!). I've had to pay off several health issues at the same time, and I haven't had my parents coddle me. However, if I lived in Canada to begin with, I wouldn't even have to worry. My health issues would have been paid for, and my education would have been so cheap that I wouldn't have needed any loans. So while yes, I was lucky enough to go from being broke to working 40 hour weeks and going to school another 18 hours, all while commuting from home to school (30 miles one way), I wouldn't be in the same situation if I was living anywhere else.

If struggling and stressing and worrying about whether you're going to make it or not and barely tweaking by and luckily getting the "big bucks" much much later in life because you barely made it out alive and managed to pull your way up is your idea of "The American Dream," you can keep it. I'd much rather live in a place where I don't have to struggle for happiness; I just have to do what is necessary and I'll achieve it.

And I apologize profusely for my misuse of pronouns. If you're living in one country, you're apart of it. It's very hard to use "we, us, them, they" whatever else when you're living everyday in Canada but were born in the US. I'm a part of both cultures. So sorry I used "they" and not "us." :rolleyes:

You have still failed to say why people have more opportunities in the US than in other countries such as the UK, France, Canada, etc. Please do so, other than saying "Because." There's plenty of people trying to get into other countries because of their opportunities, as well, so that point is completely invalid.

[NoFenders]

Just as I thought. All talk, no substance.

You have not explained why people have "better opportunities" in America versus Canada, the UK, France, all of Scandinavia, etc. You just say "because they can. It's America." Great.

Well, you've just proved my point. Comparing US to Canada is like comparing Diet Coke and Coke Zero. I guess you're catching on now.




Yup, it does only cover so much. She's making big money and getting out of debt, but she could have done it MUCH SOONER in any other country. He could have had insurance that would have covered everything, and he would have been able to have a free caretaker that would have come into their household and she wouldn't have had to quit her job to do so. You seem to think that struggling and overcoming things is the "American dream"? Well, in other countries, their dreams are NOT to struggle, but to do well from the get-go. If you have problems with health, it won't hold you back. Wouldn't it have been great if you didn't even have to deal with paying off your broken arm? You would have been on track with your plans and goals and you wouldn't have to choose between the two. That's precisely what I mean. You've proven my point wonderfully.

You shouldn't get anything for free because of your own faults.


I've gotten to where I am by working very hard and taking out a tremendous amount of loans (since education is so goddamn expensive, I get to work my way out of debt for years!). I've had to pay off several health issues at the same time, and I haven't had my parents coddle me. However, if I lived in Canada to begin with, I wouldn't even have to worry. My health issues would have been paid for, and my education would have been so cheap that I wouldn't have needed any loans. So while yes, I was lucky enough to go from being broke to working 40 hour weeks and going to school another 18 hours, all while commuting from home to school (30 miles one way), I wouldn't be in the same situation if I was living anywhere else.

Don't attribute your success to luck. It's what you wanted to do. You just had/have it easier. Which is lucky, but you made the situation work by your own means.


If struggling and stressing and worrying about whether you're going to make it or not and barely tweaking by and luckily getting the "big bucks" much much later in life because you barely made it out alive and managed to pull your way up is your idea of "The American Dream," you can keep it. I'd much rather live in a place where I don't have to struggle for happiness; I just have to do what is necessary and I'll achieve it. So by doing what's necessary means get help from everyone else??


And I apologize profusely for my misuse of pronouns. If you're living in one country, you're apart of it. It's very hard to use "we, us, them, they" whatever else when you're living everyday in Canada but were born in the US. I'm a part of both cultures. So sorry I used "they" and not "us." :rolleyes:

It's a simple question. Either you're American or Canadian. Dual citizenship perhaps??


You have still failed to say why people have more opportunities in the US than in other countries such as the UK, France, Canada, etc. Please do so, other than saying "Because." There's plenty of people trying to get into other countries because of their opportunities, as well, so that point is completely invalid.

I never said there was less opportunity in UK or France, and as a matter of fact I said US and Canada are quite the same. I'd even throw in a few other countries. But as a whole, the US has been, and continues to be a place where you can do anything. No matter the cost of gas, food, or even healthcare. If you'd try and listen instead of putting words in my mouth you'd maybe have a better picture of where I'm coming from.

Also, every great person has had to struggle. If you never struggle you'll never know why you need more out of life, and you'll never know where you don't wnat to be. Struggles are here to stay. In your imaginary world where people just live and play hop scotch all day is a dream.A dream I want no part of. I learned, (as did millions of others ) from my struggles, and they made me who I am. The struggles I'll have in the future will make me stronger as well. Stuggles make you real. How you overcome them makes the difference in just ok, and great.


:cool:

[yeahwho]

Also, every great person has had to struggle. If you never struggle you'll never know why you need more out of life, and you'll never know where you don't wnat to be. Struggles are here to stay. In your imaginary world where people just live and play hop scotch all day is a dream.A dream I want no part of. I learned, (as did millions of others ) from my struggles, and they made me who I am. The struggles I'll have in the future will make me stronger as well. Stuggles make you real. How you overcome them makes the difference in just ok, and great.


:cool:

are struggles anything like tribbles (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6773/1639/1600/kirk_tribble.jpg)? i'm having troubles with tribbles.

[NoFenders]

Tribbles are born pregnant. So in Canada, they'd have checks waiting to be cashed at birth. A family of tribbles could whipe out the entire country.

:cool:

[QueenAdrock]

Well, if America and Canada are Diet Coke and Coke Zero, I guess you've just proven your point that "America has the best opportunities for everyone" wrong, eh? I guess what you mean to say is "America and Canada have the best opportunities for everyone." And therefore, America isn't number one in your book...I mean, if they're both the same, then how could it be?

And yes, I have had it easier. Which is lucky. So we agree that some people are luckier and can get through things easier because they have a leg up. Someone who was just as strong as me could have been in a worse situation and not been able to make of it what I did; for example, my best friend who couldn't stay with his parents during college. He had to move out and is still struggling to save money to go back to school. And as each year passes, it looks bleaker and bleaker. But hey, according to you the American Dream is about constant struggle. I'm out of my struggle, but was I miserable and stressed out when it happened? Yes. Did I like it? No. Should I have had to go through it? No. The "American Dream" is a joke, if it's just about being unhappy and trying to claw your way to the top.

And getting something for free because of your own faults doesn't even make sense. It's your fault for accidentally breaking your arm and you should have to pay? You don't believe health care should be free? Okay, well, why don't we start paying out of pocket every time we go to the library? How about every time we use the post office too? We should also pay the policemen and firemen directly. I mean, I pay their paychecks all the time, and my house never ONCE caught fire. It's all those other people who are mooching. It's their fault their places caught fire, why should *I* have to pay for them using that service?

[yeahwho]

The oddest thing about this debate is when I'm walking around the streets of downtown Seattle, like today, I'm in one of the more economically privileged cities of the Planet Earth, which also happens to be in the USA.

Yet homeless people, mentally handicapped and recently unemployed people are prominent everywhere living on the streets. And this situation has been growing more daily since forever.

So where are all these entitlement programs and great opportunities at?

[NoFenders]

Well, if America and Canada are Diet Coke and Coke Zero, I guess you've just proven your point that "America has the best opportunities for everyone" wrong, eh? I guess what you mean to say is "America and Canada have the best opportunities for everyone." And therefore, America isn't number one in your book...I mean, if they're both the same, then how could it be?

Let's go back to where your rant was born.

I said: "Besides, comparing Canada and the US, copmpared to the rest of the world is like comparing Diet Coke and Coke Zero. Not much difference at all really."

You then went on to say that America is completely different becasue of healthcare, gay marriage etc. I made a point as to saying that America isn't about healthcare, it's about opportunity. Which you then began to try and make seem as though I didn't think Canadians had opportunity. Do you see how your ways really confuse the situation?? You go from one thing to another quite often, and it's hard to tell exactly where you'll go next. So, if you agree that the US and Canada are quite the same as far as opportunity, great. If not, then you should be a rock star soon enough.


And yes, I have had it easier. Which is lucky. So we agree that some people are luckier and can get through things easier because they have a leg up. Someone who was just as strong as me could have been in a worse situation and not been able to make of it what I did; for example, my best friend who couldn't stay with his parents during college. He had to move out and is still struggling to save money to go back to school. And as each year passes, it looks bleaker and bleaker. But hey, according to you the American Dream is about constant struggle.
Who said anything about constant?? And the guy should feel lucky that he even gets an education. He should be focused on what he'll do with it once he gets it, instead of worrying about yesterday and today. It's an outlook that most winners have.

I'm out of my struggle, but was I miserable and stressed out when it happened? Yes. Did I like it? No. Should I have had to go through it? No. The "American Dream" is a joke, if it's just about being unhappy and trying to claw your way to the top.
The top is where you decide it is. Some people don't need to be a CEO to be at the top of thier world. But what they do enjoy is the sense of freedom that they can take care of just about any problem that should arise by their own means. They don't depend on anyone else. That's the top for most people. You're making this all about money, and I see you have no clue as to what my point is.

And getting something for free because of your own faults doesn't even make sense. It's your fault for accidentally breaking your arm and you should have to pay?

Wait, I broke my arm. The Dr gave me bill becasue he fixed it. Accidentally or not, why would you pay for my broken arm?? Shouldn't I pay for it?? It is my arm, and I did fuck up and break it.

You don't believe health care should be free? Okay, well, why don't we start paying out of pocket every time we go to the library?

Well, if it's less than the cost of the book. Sure, why not. I do pay a fee for temporarily checking out a book. Don't you??

How about every time we use the post office too?
You don't pay for postage in Canada??


We should also pay the policemen and firemen directly.
We do.


I mean, I pay their paychecks all the time, and my house never ONCE caught fire. It's all those other people who are mooching. It's their fault their places caught fire, why should *I* have to pay for them using that service?

So your house doesn't burn down with theirs.

Not sure what your point is here.

The whole nature of this thread was to show a point on how people constantly rip on the US. It's almost become trendy. And what people fail to recognise is that this place is still far beter off than most other places in this world. Are there things that should be changed? Sure! Are we perfect? Hell no, nobody is. But in the long scheme of things, this is still a place where you can make anything out of yourself, no matter who you are, where you're at, or where you came from. That has not changed.Welfare and the handouts alike, are meant to be in place for temporary means. It's not meant to support 3 generations of one family.People struggle with life in general. It's what they make out of it, that makes them who they are. If they sit and say, my life sucks because of this and this, then their life will continue to suck because of that. They never try anything different. But since there's a lot of people with your thoughts, they'll continue to suffer in their own head til they're dead and gone. Never knowing what they were capable of doing, because others helped them stay down and survive while doing so.

:cool:

[NoFenders]

The oddest thing about this debate is when I'm walking around the streets of downtown Seattle, like today, I'm in one of the more economically privileged cities of the Planet Earth, which also happens to be in the USA.

Yet homeless people, mentally handicapped and recently unemployed people are prominent everywhere living on the streets. And this situation has been growing more daily since forever.

So where are all these entitlement programs and great opportunities at?


You're talking about Seattle. Jeesh, I know about 30 hippys that still don't have a job out there but they still find money for weed and beer. The opportunities are at their feet. They just choose to do something else, or the work offered is beneath them. If you don't decide what to do with your life, somebody else will.

:cool:

[afronaut]

You're talking about Seattle. Jeesh, I know about 30 hippys that still don't have a job out there but they still find money for weed and beer. The opportunities are at their feet. They just choose to do something else, or the work offered is beneath them. If you don't decide what to do with your life, somebody else will.

:cool:
Wow, are you really comparing the mentally handicapped with nowhere to live or work to some "hippys" you supposedly know? And right off the bat you're going to blanket generalize and decide they're all just lazy people who don't want to work?

Seriously? Is that what you're doing?

[QueenAdrock]

Let's go back to where your rant was born.

You then went on to say that America is completely different becasue of healthcare, gay marriage etc. I made a point as to saying that America isn't about healthcare, it's about opportunity. Which you then began to try and make seem as though I didn't think Canadians had opportunity. Do you see how your ways really confuse the situation?? You go from one thing to another quite often, and it's hard to tell exactly where you'll go next. So, if you agree that the US and Canada are quite the same as far as opportunity, great. If not, then you should be a rock star soon enough.

Well, seeing as how you said "There's not many other places (if any at all) that you can do that and have a sincere chance to achieve it, better than here" you're absolutely right that I believed that that meant Canada doesn't have opportunities like the US. Do you see how your words confuse the situation? You say one thing and then another. Please articulate better.

Who said anything about constant?? And the guy should feel lucky that he even gets an education. He should be focused on what he'll do with it once he gets it, instead of worrying about yesterday and today. It's an outlook that most winners have.

He's not lucky he gets an education. He doesn't have enough money to afford it, and he's not eligible for student loans. He's working very hard at his job just to make ends meet. Going to school is just a dream he has, and he only takes a few community college courses in the mean time. Maybe he'll be able to save up enough to go back to school when he's 30, he'll get his degree when he's 34, and then he can start his career at a ripe old 35. Sounds real great. Our other friends were lucky enough to have parents that paid for them completely; they graduated at 21 and started their careers at 22. My friend will be 13 years behind them, and working well into his old age before he has a chance to retire. But that's okay, because struggling gives him character and makes him a winner, and that's more important than being able to retire at a decent age.


Wait, I broke my arm. The Dr gave me bill becasue he fixed it. Accidentally or not, why would you pay for my broken arm?? Shouldn't I pay for it?? It is my arm, and I did fuck up and break it.


Because everyone makes mistakes. You didn't MEAN to break your arm. Just like burning down your house because something caught fire. Did you mean to do that? No. But my taxes go to pay that fireman. What if you get hit by a drunk driver? My taxes pay for that policeman to go and arrest the drunk driver. (And no, they are not paid directly. Directly meaning take money out of your paycheck each month, just like health insurance, rather than having the government pay for it through taxes. So no, we do not pay the police or firemen directly).

And you pay for firemen to put out the fire so it doesn't catch your house on fire? So if it's an isolated incident, a house in the middle of nowhere, let's say surrounded by a moat so there's no way the fire can spread beyond the property. You're saying that they don't deserve to have a fire department? That they should only put out fires if it affects you? Sorry, I had no idea the fire department wouldn't go and put out his fire. I thought it was to save the person and their possessions. I mean, I know every time I see a fire, I think "Oh shit, I sure as hell hope that doesn't burn down my house later!" rather than "I sure hope the person survives and are rescued by the fire department." I mean, it's just natural to think that way.


Well, if it's less than the cost of the book. Sure, why not. I do pay a fee for temporarily checking out a book. Don't you??


No, I don't. Please tell me where you borrow books from. As a librarian, I have never heard of a fee for temporarily checking out a book. I have heard of fees in regards to yearly memberships, but they are not mandatory and are waived if people just ask.

And I personally don't know anyone who is just sucked into the system and is happy by living on welfare. Welfare in the US is a joke, it's not well-funded. Medicare and Medicaid is a joke. So many doctors won't even accept that form of payment, and they pay out so little it's like having nothing at all. So I'd like to see where you constantly see these people with AMAZING LIVES, living off of welfare. There will always be people who abuse the system, but there will always be even more people who direly need it to survive, which is why we shouldn't yank it out from under them. It's so little to offer them, anyways, I don't see what the big deal is.

I believe in helping your fellow man. We live in a society, and I can't imagine what it'd be like to constantly worry about people using my money to make their lives better. I honestly don't care. I'd rather take the risk of someone abusing my goodwill than not offer it at all. Then again, I've been brought up to be generous and caring. What awful parents I had.

[afronaut]

Wait, I broke my arm. The Dr gave me bill becasue he fixed it. Accidentally or not, why would you pay for my broken arm?? Shouldn't I pay for it?? It is my arm, and I did fuck up and break it.
I always get a kick out of conservatives whining (yes, whining, you guys are just as good at it as we are) about "forced altruism," like you're the only asshole in this country who pays taxes. The guy who broke his arm pays taxes too, and I'm sure all the taxes he himself has paid covers much of what the government provides for him. You act like the government is taking your money personally, and using all of it to pay for one persons medical care. Most likely, your taxes cover most of what the government provides for you and your community that you take advantage of.

That and a useless war. But "forced altruism" is something to get upset over.

[D_Raay]

Having a child and getting a check for doing so. Hmmmmm, reminds me of something. Yeah, I can picture the roads packed with poor children. Seriously. You don't spend much time around people who abuse the system I can tell.

Are people like this to be simply thrown under the bus? I for one don't mind my taxpayer money being used to help someone who has started life at a disadvantage. What kind of guidance and support do you suppose they have gotten throughout their childhood and young adult life? Some people need and deserve some time to figure their lives out, to break the chains of their own doldrums. And if they never do, maybe we should look to the root cause of this problem not attack the symptoms. But to say they are not viable to society is to say they are not human, and last time I checked we all are just that.

[ms.peachy]

Gosh how I do love people who masturbate to Ayn Rand.

[NoFenders]

Wow, are you really comparing the mentally handicapped with nowhere to live or work to some "hippys" you supposedly know? And right off the bat you're going to blanket generalize and decide they're all just lazy people who don't want to work?

Seriously? Is that what you're doing?

No. Not at all. I have no idea how you'd take it that way. I never once mentioned handicapped people. But thanks for thinking I would. :rolleyes:



:cool:

[NoFenders]

Well, seeing as how you said "There's not many other places (if any at all) that you can do that and have a sincere chance to achieve it, better than here" you're absolutely right that I believed that that meant Canada doesn't have opportunities like the US. Do you see how your words confuse the situation? You say one thing and then another. Please articulate better.

Whatever. So we agree. Enough said.


He's not lucky he gets an education. He doesn't have enough money to afford it, and he's not eligible for student loans. He's working very hard at his job just to make ends meet. Going to school is just a dream he has, and he only takes a few community college courses in the mean time. Maybe he'll be able to save up enough to go back to school when he's 30, he'll get his degree when he's 34, and then he can start his career at a ripe old 35. Sounds real great. Our other friends were lucky enough to have parents that paid for them completely; they graduated at 21 and started their careers at 22. My friend will be 13 years behind them, and working well into his old age before he has a chance to retire. But that's okay, because struggling gives him character and makes him a winner, and that's more important than being able to retire at a decent age.

Oh, so he's already thinking of retirement. I guess that'll be another struggle for him to overcome. I have no sympathy for this guy. He's doing what he chooses to do. Circumstances could be much worse for him. He's actually lucky. But if you don't see that, then keep telling him he's doomed.



Because everyone makes mistakes. You didn't MEAN to break your arm. Just like burning down your house because something caught fire. Did you mean to do that? No. But my taxes go to pay that fireman. What if you get hit by a drunk driver? My taxes pay for that policeman to go and arrest the drunk driver. (And no, they are not paid directly. Directly meaning take money out of your paycheck each month, just like health insurance, rather than having the government pay for it through taxes. So no, we do not pay the police or firemen directly).

If you say so. Do we pay for police and fireman??? enough said. Try and twist it all ya want. The bottom line is we all pay for these people to protect the public.


And you pay for firemen to put out the fire so it doesn't catch your house on fire? So if it's an isolated incident, a house in the middle of nowhere, let's say surrounded by a moat so there's no way the fire can spread beyond the property. You're saying that they don't deserve to have a fire department? That they should only put out fires if it affects you? Sorry, I had no idea the fire department wouldn't go and put out his fire. I thought it was to save the person and their possessions. I mean, I know every time I see a fire, I think "Oh shit, I sure as hell hope that doesn't burn down my house later!" rather than "I sure hope the person survives and are rescued by the fire department." I mean, it's just natural to think that way.

Ok, this is beyond moronic. You're really stretching here I can tell. I wont go any further with this one because it will make me sound just as dumb.


No, I don't. Please tell me where you borrow books from. As a librarian, I have never heard of a fee for temporarily checking out a book. I have heard of fees in regards to yearly memberships, but they are not mandatory and are waived if people just ask.

Maybe that's it. Oh and the late fees. I knew there was checks comming into the library some how. I mean, who writes your checks.From what account does it come from??


And I personally don't know anyone who is just sucked into the system and is happy by living on welfare.
Nobody is just sucked intot the system.


Welfare in the US is a joke, it's not well-funded. Medicare and Medicaid is a joke. So many doctors won't even accept that form of payment, and they pay out so little it's like having nothing at all. So I'd like to see where you constantly see these people with AMAZING LIVES, living off of welfare.
Who said anything abuiot amazing lives. Here we go again. Thanks again for fucking with my words.You're a real pro. Welfare in the US is a joke. Too many people live off it their entire life. Glad we agree.


There will always be people who abuse the system, but there will always be even more people who direly need it to survive, which is why we shouldn't yank it out from under them. It's so little to offer them, anyways, I don't see what the big deal is.

If you say so. Whatever.


I believe in helping your fellow man. We live in a society, and I can't imagine what it'd be like to constantly worry about people using my money to make their lives better. I honestly don't care. I'd rather take the risk of someone abusing my goodwill than not offer it at all. Then again, I've been brought up to be generous and caring. What awful parents I had.

That's you. I don't like seeing people rip me off. I don't like seeing people taking my money that's supposed to be for their family and buying drugs and gym shoes with it. Or maybe a down payment for an Escalade or satelite tv. See, maybe if you actually lived in this scene for any period of time, you'd have a different opinion. You think you know, but you only assume. Take a ride into your local ghetto. Get a feel for the vibe of those on welfare. Tell me what's fair, and who really calls th shots on where they are in life. You're an enabler in the worst way. You give them no help to change their lives. Only more reason to look for more handouts. It's actually a trend in democratic ways these days. A lot to be proud of there. Way to keep my country in the dump. Again, the system has a purpose, it's just being abused to shit. You certainly can't deny that. Meh, you probably will.




:cool:

[NoFenders]

I always get a kick out of conservatives whining (yes, whining, you guys are just as good at it as we are) about "forced altruism," like you're the only asshole in this country who pays taxes. The guy who broke his arm pays taxes too, and I'm sure all the taxes he himself has paid covers much of what the government provides for him. You act like the government is taking your money personally, and using all of it to pay for one persons medical care. Most likely, your taxes cover most of what the government provides for you and your community that you take advantage of.

That and a useless war. But "forced altruism" is something to get upset over.

Who's whinning. I'm bitching. There's a big difference. Although whinning does fit your bill. Paying taxes and paying a Dr bill are not really in the same deal here. Were you drunk while posting this. Because I have no idea what your point is.

LMAO and then you throw in the war. What a joke.



:cool:

[NoFenders]

Are people like this to be simply thrown under the bus? I for one don't mind my taxpayer money being used to help someone who has started life at a disadvantage. What kind of guidance and support do you suppose they have gotten throughout their childhood and young adult life? Some people need and deserve some time to figure their lives out, to break the chains of their own doldrums. And if they never do, maybe we should look to the root cause of this problem not attack the symptoms. But to say they are not viable to society is to say they are not human, and last time I checked we all are just that.

Sure, but are you going to tell me that there aren't many many people having babies just to get another check?? I thought most here would have some clue on what goes on in big cities. It seems like most are really in the dark here. I guess I'm the one worse off because I see the bullshit that you all dismiss as bad luck. Play the shell game, you'll win $100. That's not directed at you D_Raay. It's just a warning to those who think they know everything about everything.


I'll say it again, the system has a place in our society. It's meant to give people a leg up, and get back on track. But how long should that leg be given, and when does it hamper the support of somebody who truely needs it?? You see, when you have a great number of people applying for welfare, when do you cut off the person who has had it for 20 years and never once even looked for a job? All this does is keep these people in the system. It's not designed to be that way. No, it's not a ton of money they get, but when you add it all up, the dead beats far outweigh the ligit cases.



:cool:

[QueenAdrock]

Whatever. So we agree. Enough said.


We do agree; you're a flip flopper.

Oh, so he's already thinking of retirement. I guess that'll be another struggle for him to overcome. I have no sympathy for this guy. He's doing what he chooses to do.

I don't doubt you don't have sympathy for the guy, your attitude is what's wrong with the world. Just like you said if people work at McDonald's long enough, they can earn a paycheck to go back to school. But seeing as how that will take years for them to do with all their bills and debts, they won't retire for a long, long time. But you have no sympathy for him, because it was his fault that he has bills to pay and no assistance from his anyone. He deserves to work well into his 70s.


If you say so. Do we pay for police and fireman??? enough said. Try and twist it all ya want. The bottom line is we all pay for these people to protect the public.



Exactly. Just like universal health insurance protects (and saves) the public. Just like policemen and firemen do.


Ok, this is beyond moronic. You're really stretching here I can tell. I wont go any further with this one because it will make me sound just as dumb.


It's called sarcasm. You said that firemen put out other peoples' fires "to keep your house from burning down" and I proved you wrong. They're there to protect people. It's not really stretching, it's the truth. Sorry you're not smart or logical enough to understand that concept, perhaps it's because you didn't have enough money to go beyond the education level of "fry cook" in this so-called great country?



Who said anything abuiot amazing lives.


That's you. I don't like seeing people rip me off. I don't like seeing people taking my money that's supposed to be for their family and buying drugs and gym shoes with it. Or maybe a down payment for an Escalade or satelite tv.



News flash: you fuck with your own words. Who said anything about amazing lives, you ask? Welfare is a joke, you say. But then you go ahead and say that people will use your money that goes towards welfare for a down payment on an Escalade. Which one is it? Are they totally ripping you off and have amazing lives, or do they barely squeak through on government assistance?

Your choice. Take a position and stick to it for once.

As for me being an enabler, you think that by taking away welfare, it'll give them a "kick in the butt" that they need? Right. I see more people starving and dying on the streets. But maybe that's what you're hoping for; weeding out all the poor people in society.

[NoFenders]

Gosh how I do love people who masturbate to Ayn Rand.

She was actually very good with defining the individual. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but it seems you are. So let me say this. Whatever you're going to amount to in life, is up to you. Nobody controls your destiny, but you. If you choose to blame others, for your misfortune, you're doomed to fail.




:cool:

[NoFenders]

We do agree


Great, leave it at that.

Just because you have an escalade doesn't mean you have an amazing life. Since you took that way out of line, I now see this is pointless.

Bottom line. People abuse the system.




:cool:

[NoFenders]

I see more people starving and dying on the streets.

Where do you see this?????







:cool:

[QueenAdrock]

I think having an Escalade shows that you do have an amazing life. That's a very, very expensive car, and if you can afford that AND a satellite TV, whew. I mean, that's the life right there. I personally want a pool and flat-screen TVs in every room, but if I could get an Escalade I'd be pretty damn happy too. Maybe I should quit my job and school and get welfare to get this great stuff, too.

As for me being an enabler, you think that by taking away welfare, it'll give them a "kick in the butt" that they need? Right. I see more people starving and dying on the streets. But maybe that's what you're hoping for; weeding out all the poor people in society.

"See" as in "I foretell that in the future..."

[yeahwho]

Who's whinning. I'm bitching. There's a big difference. Although whinning does fit your bill. Paying taxes and paying a Dr bill are not really in the same deal here. Were you drunk while posting this. Because I have no idea what your point is.

LMAO and then you throw in the war. What a joke.



:cool:

throwing in the war is a joke to you, that is money well spent and should be considered sacred or something?

Yet with the foreclosure rate projected to be one million homes in the US this year alone, and currently there are 5.5 million foreclosures in the US market. We should bitch about those in the US who need a helping hand.

Your ethical standards are either very calloused or your basically a moron. Either way what is your point? Everybody here disagrees with you and I know why, two basic realities cannot be missed, even without posting statistics and factual documentation (which I gladly will do) when any of us walk down the streets of the towns we live in we see homeless, deranged and destitute folks roaming around, many panhandling. We're observing this in growing numbers even with all of these entitlement programs your paying for.

The other fact is this, human beings are not infallible, physical limitations, mental limitations and even spiritual limitations can be broken and humans need something more than an inspirational talk. Humans need other humans to make a society work. It's not rocket science.

Meanwhile the real challenge for this administration is to get and use as much tax dollar money they can to fight a war in Iraq. Iraq? WTF. And your saying bringing the war into this is a joke, your tax dollars are going to Iraq too (http://zfacts.com/p/447.html), does that seem like something you feel is OK?

[NoFenders]

I'm glad we're able to have these talks. It just shows what a wonderful country I live in that we can totally disagree on things like this and still go about our ways.

It occured to me as I was about to post again, and how it seemed so strange that you'd have no clue as to where I was comming from, that a guy from the south side of Chicago wouldn't ever get through to a librarian in Canada about how things in the inner city work. So, I'm sorry. Sorry for thinking you'd have a clue as to what goes on here. Forget I ever said anything, and just go about your rosey life thinking everyone is as honest and carring as you. It's not a fault by any means, it's just a mindset that you've grown into. Good job.



:cool:

[NoFenders]

I think having an Escalade shows that you do have an amazing life. That's a very, very expensive car, and if you can afford that AND a satellite TV, whew. I mean, that's the life right there. I personally want a pool and flat-screen TVs in every room, but if I could get an Escalade I'd be pretty damn happy too. Maybe I should quit my job and school and get welfare to get this great stuff, too.





Become a drug dealer. You'll have all that and a bag of chips for your new amazing life. I can't believe your serious. Are you 12??

:cool:

[NoFenders]

throwing in the war is a joke to you, that is money well spent and should be considered sacred or something?

Wow, you made it!! Throwing the war in is a typical response from a typical die-hard dem. War was never metioned here. Until now. Great!


Yet with the foreclosure rate projected to be one million homes in the US this year alone, and currently there are 5.5 million foreclosures in the US market. We should bitch about those in the US who need a helping hand.

Foreclosure rate is high because so many people live beyond their means. They spend money they don't have.

Your ethical standards are either very calloused or your basically a moron. Either way what is your point? Everybody here disagrees with you and I know why, two basic realities cannot be missed, even without posting statistics and factual documentation (which I gladly will do) when any of us walk down the streets of the towns we live in we see homeless, deranged and destitute folks roaming around, many panhandling. We're observing this in growing numbers even with all of these entitlement programs your paying for.

Is that one sentence?? Jeesh. First of all everybody on here is like 3 people. lol And yes very calloused towards people getting something for nothing. Deranged and destitue folks huh?? Ever talk to any of'em?? Do you know their story?? I know a lot of stories. Most equal out to how they fucked up, and can't getback up because people don't think they can. You have no clue.


The other fact is this, human beings are not infallible, physical limitations, mental limitations and even spiritual limitations can be broken and humans need something more than an inspirational talk. Humans need other humans to make a society work. It's not rocket science.

Thanks genius. What a concept, work.

Meanwhile the real challenge for this administration is to get and use as much tax dollar money they can to fight a war in Iraq. Iraq? WTF. And your saying bringing the war into this is a joke, your tax dollars are going to Iraq too (http://zfacts.com/p/447.html), does that seem like something you feel is OK?

That's not what this thread is about.




:cool:

[yeahwho]

Wow, you made it!! Throwing the war in is a typical response from a typical die-hard dem. War was never metioned here. Until now. Great!

The last statistical information I read over 70% of US citizens want us out of Iraq. War costs money, I'm asking you a question about tax dollars and your avoiding the elephant sitting in the living room. Right wing, Left wing, Amish, protestant, I don't give a hoot, we're all paying for the same thing.

Answer the question or just quit the discussion. Use the whole picture (http://www.federalbudget.com/).



Foreclosure rate is high because so many people live beyond their means. They spend money they don't have.

LOL, that is one of the weakest replies I've ever received on any response from you. Your actually saying this while the current economy is spiraling and mortgage lenders are being investigated? I'll not even get into the lending practices credit companies have been allowed get away with...



Is that one sentence?? Jeesh. First of all everybody on here is like 3 people. lol And yes very calloused towards people getting something for nothing. Deranged and destitue folks huh?? Ever talk to any of'em?? Do you know their story?? I know a lot of stories. Most equal out to how they fucked up, and can't getback up because people don't think they can. You have no clue.


I am an recovering alcoholic, living on the streets is something I am intimately familiar with. So is insanity, hunger, incomprehensible demoralization and everything that comes with being a chronic alcoholic. So yes I've been to thousands of AA meetings and have taken something more than some fucked up casual observation of how living life on the streets is.



Thanks genius. What a concept, work.

Yes you working to help others, you seeing somebody who needs help and helping them.



That's not what this thread is about.

Say what you like that our money going to Iraq in the hundreds of billions is not what this thread is about, just remember that veterans are twice as likely to go homeless, they are currently making up 12% of the homeless on the US streets today.

[QueenAdrock]

I'm glad we're able to have these talks. It just shows what a wonderful country I live in that we can totally disagree on things like this and still go about our ways.

It occured to me as I was about to post again, and how it seemed so strange that you'd have no clue as to where I was comming from, that a guy from the south side of Chicago wouldn't ever get through to a librarian in Canada about how things in the inner city work. So, I'm sorry. Sorry for thinking you'd have a clue as to what goes on here. Forget I ever said anything, and just go about your rosey life thinking everyone is as honest and carring as you. It's not a fault by any means, it's just a mindset that you've grown into. Good job.


I already said I know some people abuse the system. But you have to realize there's other people outside of the inner city. Just because you see people abusing it doesn't mean there aren't honest, hardworking individuals who struggle to get by and need it as a boost. I'd rather think majority of the people are good people that need help rather than majority of the people abuse the system. I can't imagine what it'd be like to go through life thinking that people were complete monsters like you do. That's the mindset you've grown into. However, unlike you, I realize there's both bad and good people who use the system and want it to stay because the good people need it; you want to punish BOTH by taking it away. I don't think like that. I'd rather have someone unworthy take advantage of it AS WELL AS people who truly need it, rather than yanking it away from everyone. I'd rather reward someone for being bad than punish someone for being good. It's just money, and I'd rather some of it go towards people who need it more than I do.

And if you pulled yourself up from the bootstraps as you so stated, why are you living in the inner city? Is it simply choice? You said that "I'd have no idea what goes on there," insinuating that abuse of the system and other bad shit goes on there, pointing to the fact that you don't live in the best of neighborhoods. So I suppose you're still working towards that "American Dream" of yours? Just a question.

[NoFenders]

I already said I know some people abuse the system. But you have to realize there's other people outside of the inner city. Just because you see people abusing it doesn't mean there aren't honest, hardworking individuals who struggle to get by and need it as a boost.

Ok, great. I've already said the system is there for those who truely need it to get back on their feet.


I'd rather think majority of the people are good people that need help rather than majority of the people abuse the system. I can't imagine what it'd be like to go through life thinking that people were complete monsters like you do. That's the mindset you've grown into. However, unlike you, I realize there's both bad and good people who use the system and want it to stay because the good people need it; you want to punish BOTH by taking it away.

I never said I wanted it gone. You should stop listening to the voice in your head, and start reading my posts. You have me painted in your head, and it's showing how narrow minded you really are.

I don't think like that.

Neither do I.

I'd rather have someone unworthy take advantage of it AS WELL AS people who truly need it, rather than yanking it away from everyone. I'd rather reward someone for being bad than punish someone for being good. It's just money, and I'd rather some of it go towards people who need it more than I do.

Yet again you've missed the point. I never said it should be whiped off the slate.

And if you pulled yourself up from the bootstraps as you so stated, why are you living in the inner city? Is it simply choice? You said that "I'd have no idea what goes on there," insinuating that abuse of the system and other bad shit goes on there, pointing to the fact that you don't live in the best of neighborhoods. So I suppose you're still working towards that "American Dream" of yours? Just a question.

I've been gone from there a long time. If you remember we had a bit of a talk about the death sentence where I stated where I'm from and where I'm at today. I don't live in the inner city anymore, and I'm still working on my dream.That's all due to me. And nobody else. I do however know the people of the inner city very well. And there are some people that are struggling to overcome their situation. They work very hard at getting out. On the other end, there's just as many (if not more) that don't want to get out. They take pride in where they can rip the next guy off. It's a mindset they've grown accustomed to, and will never break it, unless somebody breaks it for them.

Now you're saying I want welfare taken out of our system completely. When will you stop putting words in my mouth?? You're worse than some of the girls I've dated in highschool.


:cool:

[NoFenders]

The last statistical information I read over 70% of US citizens want us out of Iraq. War costs money, I'm asking you a question about tax dollars and your avoiding the elephant sitting in the living room. Right wing, Left wing, Amish, protestant, I don't give a hoot, we're all paying for the same thing.

Answer the question or just quit the discussion. Use the whole picture (http://www.federalbudget.com/).

You want to make a thread about the war go for it. I'm pretty sure you already have. The elephant is not in my thread. You can take it back whenever you and afronaut want. I never started the discussion, so there's nothing for me to quit. You sure are bright!





LOL, that is one of the weakest replies I've ever received on any response from you. Your actually saying this while the current economy is spiraling and mortgage lenders are being investigated? I'll not even get into the lending practices credit companies have been allowed get away with...

Do you know how much money you make??? Do you know how much you should spend on a house?? It's pretty simple. Yet again, we have people that made bad choices, and it's not their fault.





I am an recovering alcoholic, living on the streets is something I am intimately familiar with. So is insanity, hunger, incomprehensible demoralization and everything that comes with being a chronic alcoholic. So yes I've been to thousands of AA meetings and have taken something more than some fucked up casual observation of how living life on the streets is.

Well, it's great you've beaten that demon. Sincere congrats on that. Seriously.

However I don't see where it fits into our discussion.



Yes you working to help others, you seeing somebody who needs help and helping them.

Sure. I agree. I can always help somebody who truely needs my help, and also deserves it.

However, for the most part, I work for my family. and myself.



Say what you like that our money going to Iraq in the hundreds of billions is not what this thread is about, just remember that veterans are twice as likely to go homeless, they are currently making up 12% of the homeless on the US streets today.

We're talking about welfare. Not homeless people or the war. Most homeless people do not collect welfare. I figured you'd know this since you're so in touch with the population. Where should they send the check?? What does the homeless person say when the officer asks where they've been working.

I see now that none of you have any clue at all about welfare, and even homeless people for that matter.


:cool:

[QueenAdrock]

Become a drug dealer. You'll have all that and a bag of chips for your new amazing life. I can't believe your serious. Are you 12??

:cool:

No, I'm not serious. It's sarcasm. Look it up in a dictionary. And apparently, you don't remember what you first said:

I don't like seeing people rip me off. I don't like seeing people taking my money that's supposed to be for their family and buying drugs and gym shoes with it. Or maybe a down payment for an Escalade or satelite tv.

Apparently, according to what you said, I don't need to become a drug dealer in order to have a new, amazing life. All I need is to go on welfare and take your money that way for a down payment on my new car. :rolleyes:

And if you don't want to be taken one way, why don't you articulate better? You bash on the system and say how you hate people taking your money and how people need to learn to deal with things on their own, and you have no sympathy for people who have had hard times in their lives and they don't deserve to take your money just because they're in trouble. "Their only problem is themselves, and they're their only solution," correct? HOW THE HELL ELSE AM I SUPPOSED TO TAKE THAT OTHER THAN "I DO NOT SUPPORT WELFARE, ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM?" Honestly. If you want to be taken a certain way, maybe stop talking out of both sides of your mouth, or learn how to explain yourself better.

[NoFenders]

No, I'm not serious. It's sarcasm. Look it up in a dictionary. And apparently, you don't remember what you first said:

Pathetic. Really.



Apparently, according to what you said, I don't need to become a drug dealer in order to have a new, amazing life. All I need is to go on welfare and take your money that way for a down payment on my new car. :rolleyes:

And your point?? If you want the falt screen in every room you'll have to get some extra cash.


And if you don't want to be taken one way, why don't you articulate better? You bash on the system and say how you hate people taking your money and how people need to learn to deal with things on their own, and you have no sympathy for people who have had hard times in their lives and they don't deserve to take your money just because they're in trouble. "Their only problem is themselves, and they're their only solution," correct? HOW THE HELL ELSE AM I SUPPOSED TO TAKE THAT OTHER THAN "I DO NOT SUPPORT WELFARE, ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM?"

You really are a numb skull. Lay off the dope sister. I hate people taking my money when that's all they'll ever do, and all they've ever done. Never once making money of their own. I've said at least 4 times in this thread that there are people who need this. And they should get it temporarily. However it's not mean to be a career. People in ligit trouble should have help. They'd actually get more if the abusers were kicked out.

You are your only problem, and you are your only solution.

I SUPPORT WELFARE IN SHAPE AND FORM OF HELPING THOSE WHO TRUELY NEED IT!!!

Honestly. If you want to be taken a certain way, maybe stop talking out of both sides of your mouth, or learn how to explain yourself better.

Honestly, I just don't give the answers you want. It shows so much in your posts that you only see and read what you want out of mine. It's absolutley useless to even try anymore with somebody ast thick headed as yourself.


Please, try not to be so idiotic with everyone you talk to. Or atleast just talk to people that believe in your fairy tale of life.


:cool:

[NoFenders]

Just so ya know where I stand since it's fucking impossible to get through to some people.





Originally Posted by Bob http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/images/buttons_mixup/viewpost.gif (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=1599869#post1599869)
but what about the people who work full time and are still below the poverty line? the point of welfare isn't to make it so that people can coast through life without having to work (i would question how comfortable of a lifestyle these people have, but i won't dispute the fact that they're out there), it's designed to help out the people who, try as they might, can't make it on their own.


Those people are what the system is for.


As I said before, welfare is needed to help people get back on their feet, but it's not meant to be a way of life. Especially not here.

Welfare and the handouts alike, are meant to be in place for temporary means. It's not meant to support 3 generations of one family.


Again, the system has a purpose, it's just being abused to shit. You certainly can't deny that. Meh, you probably will.


I never said I wanted it gone. You should stop listening to the voice in your head, and start reading my posts. You have me painted in your head, and it's showing how narrow minded you really are.



:cool:

[QueenAdrock]

You really are a numb skull. I hate people taking my money when that's all they'll ever do, and all they've ever done. Never once making money of their own. I've said at least 4 times in this thread that there are people who need this. And they should get it temporarily. However it's not mean to be a career. People in ligit trouble should have help.

And you talk outside of both sides of your mouth. And when you're trapped, you flip flop to make it more convenient. Don't make it out to be me being the one misinterpreting, rather than you not articulating or saying the right thing. Maybe you just don't have the brain power to understand where you can be misinterpreted. Saying that we should have welfare and then saying you have no sympathy for my friend who is working his ass off AND IS IN LEGITIMATE TROUBLE, but is working very hard to get to where he wants to be, is completely contradictory. You say that people don't deserve it at all because they're the only ones who can help themselves, then you say, no it's okay for some people. But not for that girl who broke her arm and wanted a leg up, and not for my friend who is struggling? Give me a break. You have two positions, one where it's okay for people to get help, and one where it's not okay for anyone.


Please, try not to be so idiotic with everyone you talk to. Or atleast just talk to people that believe in your fairy tale of life.

Hahaha, I'm being idiotic. Oh, sweet, sweet irony. Being called an "idiot" by someone who has an education level of "fry cook," I'll take that as a compliment. Tell me, if I'm the idiot here, how come absolutely EVERYONE on here thinks you're wrong on everything? We have knowledgeable conservatives that come around every so often and make valid points and they're not flamed. It's obviously not the issue, it's how you argue it. And frankly, to tell you the truth, you're terrible at it. You switch positions, or you just don't articulate well at all.

And I'm sorry you can't pick up sarcasm. I thought it was pretty straight-forward, but I do understand how embarrassing it can be not to understand it. :rolleyes:

Thank God you're voting in solid-blue Illinois.

[NoFenders]

And you talk outside of both sides of your mouth. And when you're trapped, you flip flop to make it more convenient. Don't make it out to be me being the one misinterpreting, rather than you not articulating or saying the right thing. Maybe you just don't have the brain power to understand where you can be misinterpreted. Saying that we should have welfare and then saying you have <B>no sympathy</B> for my friend who is working his ass off AND IS IN LEGITIMATE TROUBLE, but is working very hard to get to where he wants to be, is completely contradictory. You say that people don't deserve it at all because they're the only ones who can help themselves, then you say, no it's okay for some people. But not for that girl who broke her arm and wanted a leg up, and not for my friend who is struggling? Give me a break. You have two positions, one where it's okay for people to get help, and one where it's not okay for anyone.

Your friend broke his arm. Wtf???? It's a fucking broken arm. He's not in ligitimate trouble. He's in situation that can be easily overcome. I hope he doesn't listne to you too much though. You might have him handicapped for life. I never said people didn't deserve it at all. You just said I did, so I gues that makes it so. What a selfrighteous bitch you really are. I have one position. If you look up a couple posts I put them all in line for you. They all say the same thing. Let me know if you still have trouble.

I have one position. Welfare is needed. And it also abused.


Hahaha, I'm being idiotic. Oh, sweet, sweet irony. Being called an "idiot" by someone who has an education level of "fry cook,"

Yeah, you're a real caring person. Rip on me because I didn't go to college. I see it's only the ones you choose to have feelings for that get your support, everyone else is a retard right???


I'll take that as a compliment.

Take it to the bank.


Tell me, if I'm the idiot here, how come absolutely EVERYONE on here thinks you're wrong on everything?

Ya mean all three or six of ya. I don't know, why don't you pm them??

We have knowledgeable conservatives that come around every so often and make valid points and they're not flamed. It's obviously not the issue, it's how you argue it. And frankly, to tell you the truth, you're terrible at it. You switch positions, or you just don't articulate well at all.

I just don't agree with you. I've yet to see one conservative around these parts go anywhere near these subjects. You're full of shit. Tell me who is conservative here and where they post their opinions.


And I'm sorry you can't pick up sarcasm. I thought it was pretty straight-forward, but I do understand how embarrassing it can be not to understand it.

You're really the example of a spoiled brat. Good luck with that. Hope mommy and daddy don't pay all your bills.

Thank God you're voting in solid-blue Illinois.

My vote still counts. IL has been blue since you were a gleam in your daddys eyes. Nothing new you're bring to the table once again. Just a low blow from a spoiled little Daddys girl.


:cool:

[NoFenders]

Anyway, I'm over this already. I don't sit around checking in books all day like a genius does.

It's been fun!! Til next thread!! (y)



:cool:

[QueenAdrock]

If you look through your other posts, apart from the ones where you selectively pick out where you say "welfare is needed," you'll see where you have an opposite position, one that says that you believe people shouldn't get handouts if they're struggling. Honestly, read through it yourself, I'm not going to point each one out to you, it's too many.

And If you could actually fucking read, it would say "I've gotten to where I am by working very hard and taking out a tremendous amount of loans (since education is so goddamn expensive, I get to work my way out of debt for years!). I've had to pay off several health issues at the same time, and I haven't had my parents coddle me." Daddy's little girl is laughable.

And I strike back when I'm called a "numbskull." I'm only caring towards people who don't attack me first. I'm polite and kind to everyone, but once I'm called an idiot, I don't sit back and take it. I'm going to strike back. And guess what? Everyone on this board thinks you're a genuine idiot, and I honestly think it's due to your lack of schooling. I do feel bad that you weren't able to get as far as some of us, but to come on here and try to act superior to those of you who are obviously more intelligent is pretty insulting.

Have a nice day, sweetcheeks. :)(y)

[NoFenders]

You got it sweet tits!!

Whatever you say!! (y)

:cool:

[saz]

she's absolutely right.

i've been sitting here reading this back and forth exchange, and she's been very patient, honest and thoughtful in her well-explained replies.

you lost your patience and had to resort to name-calling and hurling insults, which just makes you look obnoxious. that's not going to win anyone over.

[NoFenders]

Oh well. I just get tired of saying the same thing over and over while she ignores it to fit her agenda of painting me as some heartless asshole who wants people to suffer. I get mad at that, and then especially the fact of her calling me a fry cook. It's kinda petty. And the only reason I can think of why sh'ed do it is just to fuck with me. And that's a Daddy's girl 100%.

:cool:

[NoFenders]

i've been sitting here reading this back and forth exchange, and she's been very patient, honest and thoughtful in her well-explained replies.




That, also, is a laugh. However, you and most on here all agree, all the time. It's of no surprise you feel that way. Whatever


:cool:

[QueenAdrock]

I get mad at that, and then especially the fact of her calling me a fry cook. It's kinda petty.

It's nothing new. I'm just saying what you already did. (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=1560327&postcount=36)

And I thought you were done with this thread? Oh wait, I forgot that you flip-flop all the time. Carry on. (y)

[NoFenders]

LMAO

That was good!! (y)



:cool:

[yeahwho]

We're talking about welfare. Not homeless people or the war. Most homeless people do not collect welfare. I figured you'd know this since you're so in touch with the population. Where should they send the check?? What does the homeless person say when the officer asks where they've been working.

I see now that none of you have any clue at all about welfare, and even homeless people for that matter.


:cool:

Not once does the original article by Glenn Beck mention "welfare". Your telling me all about welfare? Look I don't know why anybody even entertains your unsubstantiated uneducated and unappealing opinions. I live in a place called reality where "opinions" mean squat. Good people get hurt, good people get sick and good people get robbed.

And to answer your question, a night in jail during the winter is better than a night in the streets. Did you know you can pick up your check at the welfare office? Along with food stamps. Have you ever noticed the lines outside the food banks? That isn't a mistake. Incomprehensible demoralization is the only way to describe how being stuck on the streets is.

You insult me that is one thing, I could care less... but then you begin to generalize some fucked up point of view of how poor people scam the system? That's fucking ridiculous. Lowball.

Ms Peachy has your number, NoFenders Shrugged.

:cool:

[NoFenders]

Not once does the original article by Glenn Beck mention "welfare". Your telling me all about welfare? Look I don't know why anybody even entertains your unsubstantiated uneducated and unappealing opinions. I live in a place called reality where "opinions" mean squat. Good people get hurt, good people get sick and good people get robbed.

No it doesn't. If you knew how to read things besides Obama letters you'd notice where the conversation took off from. Mr reality seems to have lost it.



And to answer your question, a night in jail during the winter is better than a night in the streets.

Sorry, what was my question??

Did you know you can pick up your check at the welfare office? Along with food stamps. Have you ever noticed the lines outside the food banks? That isn't a mistake. Incomprehensible demoralization is the only way to describe how being stuck on the streets is.

And who put you on the streets?? Who put the bottle in your hand?? Who took it out???

The one thing I've noticed is that every single homeless person I've been around doesn't want to be known, or even found.


The rest of your post is crap. Trying to call me out over the internet like some 8th grader. Get back to reality moron.

:cool:

[Bob]

No it doesn't. If you knew how to read things besides Obama letters you'd notice where the conversation took off from. Mr reality seems to have lost it.




Sorry, what was my question??



And who put you on the streets?? Who put the bottle in your hand?? Who took it out???

The one thing I've noticed is that every single homeless person I've been around doesn't want to be known, or even found.


The rest of your post is crap. Trying to call me out over the internet like some 8th grader. Get back to reality moron.

:cool:

what do you think about homeless veterans?

[NoFenders]

The two I've met , never even told me their names. They'd usually just drink themselves to sleep, wishing never to wake up. There's not much to think about them, except that it would suck for myself to get to that point. Then again, I wasn't sent home after war, with a country (fucking hippys) against what I was there for. So I can certainly understand why they would go into such deep depression. They are both Vietnam vets. They are both very angry at society as a whole. I met them outside a Veterans hospital, while visiting a relative. They didn't want any pitty from me. Just a buck or two. They know how they got there, and they know how to get out. They chose to give up. I feel sorry for them to some degree. But seeing as though they choose this life, I have to say good luck and God bless. Those are the two I've met. Others I'm sure have different stories of how and why they are where they are.

I can't put our veterans (peolpe who went to war for our cuontry and freedom) in the same category as some dipshit drunk that couldn't hack it in the real world of a 9 to 5 job and some bills to pay.If you do, then there's not much respect for the veterans. I don't feel we do enough for our veterans. These are the people that deserve more. Not the guy down on his luck looking for an extra buck so he can forget what an asshole he is.

:cool:

[Bob]

The two I've met , never even told me their names. They'd usually just drink themselves to sleep, wishing never to wake up. There's not much to think about them, except that it would suck for myself to get to that point. Then again, I wasn't sent home after war, with a country (fucking hippys) against what I was there for. So I can certainly understand why they would go into such deep depression. They are both Vietnam vets. They are both very angry at society as a whole. I met them outside a Veterans hospital, while visiting a relative. They didn't want any pitty from me. Just a buck or two. They know how they got there, and they know how to get out. They chose to give up. I feel sorry for them to some degree. But seeing as though they choose this life, I have to say good luck and God bless. Those are the two I've met. Others I'm sure have different stories of how and why they are where they are.

I can't put our veterans (peolpe who went to war for our cuontry and freedom) in the same category as some dipshit drunk that couldn't hack it in the real world of a 9 to 5 job and some bills to pay.If you do, then there's not much respect for the veterans. I don't feel we do enough for our veterans. These are the people that deserve more. Not the guy down on his luck looking for an extra buck so he can forget what an asshole he is.

:cool:

would you be surprised to learn that there are more than two homeless veterans in america?

Although accurate numbers are impossible to come by -- no one keeps national records on homeless veterans -- the VA estimates that nearly 200,000 veterans are homeless on any given night. And nearly 400,000 experience homelessness over the course of a year. Conservatively, one out of every three homeless men who is sleeping in a doorway, alley or box in our cities and rural communities has put on a uniform and served this country. According to the National Survey of Homeless Assistance Providers and Clients (U.S. Interagency Council on Homelessness and the Urban Institute, 1999), veterans account for 23% of all homeless people in America.

http://www.nchv.org/background.cfm

while the hippies are a tempting class of people to blame for this phenomenon, i'm not sure that it's entirely their fault that so many veterans come home and end up on the street. from the same site:

In addition to the complex set of factors affecting all homelessness -- extreme shortage of affordable housing, livable income, and access to health care -- a large number of displaced and at-risk veterans live with lingering effects of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and substance abuse, compounded by a lack of family and social support networks.

now when you say "I don't feel we do enough for our veterans" who are "we" and what do you mean by "do"?

veterans aren't the only homeless people that are maybe slightly not to blame for their predicament as well. laziness and being a hippy are actually not the leading causes of homelessness, i believe mental illness and drug addiction are up there as well. veterancy might be #3. others just genuinely have bad luck (or are too financially unsophisticated to recognize the full extent of the danger of a predatory loan when they're offered one, or at least have the bad luck of having a dumb landlord). once you become homeless it's incredibly difficult to not be homeless. i believe the only job available to you is picking the dog shit out of backyards. it only pays $5 and you have to compete with four year old girls and they're a dynamic part of the labor market so it's really a hell of a time.

[Burnout18]

NoFenders------ the whole thing about people taking your money and making down payments on luxury SUV's is actually understandable to me.... i worked in the payroll department of a warehouse, i saw how much everyone made, per week, per year.... and the shit they would go out and buy was absolutely insane. We are talking people just over the poverty line (which im assuming is $18,000$ a year) and with kids, buying iphones, and acessories for thier cars worth $3,000-5,000. Like what the fuck are you doing.

By no means am i against welfare, because i am not,,,, but you know what i always thought was true, if they were to eliminate welfare, we would still be paying the same amount in taxes... they would just find other ways to spend it. Hopefully that thought erases your "my money shouldn't go to your caddy" idea.

[Schmeltz]

There will always be people who abuse a system, but that doesn't necessarily mean the system should be dispensed with. People abuse publicly-funded highways every day - speeding, driving drunk, talking on their phones. Should we tear up all the highways to solve these problems?

NoFenders, you really ought to spend less time driving by the trailer park and more time reading about where the social safety net comes from and why and how it has evolved into a Western cultural institution. You could start by comparing your own country, with its very real and complex social difficulties, with other less well-developed places that do not have a fallback system for impoverished people - places in which these sorts of problems are not just fodder for middle-class people to bitch about on internet discussion boards but massively crippling societal failures that drastically hamper the quality of life for a majority of citizens. The reason your highly advanced and enviably wealthy nation has developed welfare is not to force the strong to suckle the weak, it is to avoid the pitfalls of mass desperation and cyclical poverty that plague the underdeveloped Third World. Welfare is a feature of a strong and competitive society, not a personal imposition forced on you by bureaucratic overlords.

Get over yourself. It's the trailer park denizens who envy you, not the other way around. If you're jealous of some poor redneck who has an illegal satellite dish on his run-down trailer, you've got too much spare time to spend thinking about the wrong things.

[yeahwho]

The rest of your post is crap. Trying to call me out over the internet like some 8th grader. Get back to reality moron.

:cool:

Believe me, I feel like an 8th grader whenever I discuss any topic with you.

*my apologies to all 8th graders*

[RobMoney$]

would you be surprised to learn that there are more than two homeless veterans in america?


Wrong.

Everybody knows all homeless people say they're veterans to get us to give them money. It's a fucking homeless guy marketing technique.

There aren't any real homeless veterans in the USA#1.