Severe Inequality in the U.S.

[DroppinScience]

Depending on where you are in the U.S., life is either pretty good or... on par with a 3rd world country according to this report. Glenn Beck and NoFenders may want to take a glance at the report.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/07/17/10425/

Published on Thursday, July 17, 2008 by The Independent/UK
American Inequality Highlighted by 30-Year Gap In Life Expectancy
by Leonard Doyle

The United States of America is becoming less united by the day. A 30-year gap now exists in the average life expectancy between Mississippi, in the Deep South, and Connecticut, in prosperous New England. Huge disparities have also opened up in income, health and education depending on where people live in the US, according to a report published yesterday.

The American Human Development Index has applied to the US an aid agency approach to measuring well-being - more familiar to observers of the Third World - with shocking results. The US finds itself ranked 42nd in global life expectancy and 34th in survival of infants to age. Suicide and murder are among the top 15 causes of death and although the US is home to just 5 per cent of the global population it accounts for 24 per cent of the world’s prisoners.

Despite an almost cult-like devotion to the belief that unfettered free enterprise is the best way to lift Americans out of poverty, the report points to a rigged system that does little to lessen inequalities.

“The report shows that although America is one of the richest nations in the world, it is woefully behind when it comes to providing opportunity and choices to all Americans to build a better life,” the authors said.

Some of its more shocking findings reveal that, in parts of Texas, the percentage of adults who pass through high school has not improved since the 1970s.

Asian-American males have the best quality of life and black Americans the lowest, with a staggering 50-year life expectancy gap between the two groups.

Despite the fact that the US spends roughly $5.2bn (£2.6bn) every day on health care, more per capita than any other nation in the world, Americans live shorter lives than citizens of every western European and Nordic country, bar Denmark.

Using official government statistics, the study points out that because American schools are funded primarily from local property taxes, rich districts get the best state education. The US has no federally mandated sick pay, paternity leave or annual paid vacation.

“Some Americans are living anywhere from 30 to 50 years behind others when it comes to issues we all care about: health, education and standard of living,” said Sarah Burd-Sharps co-author of the report.

Although the US is one of the most powerful and rich nations in the world, the study concludes it is “woefully behind when it comes to providing opportunity and choices to all Americans to build a better life”.

According to a United Nations human development report, the US is in 12th place in a league table of wealthy developed nations. Britain is ranked 16th.

[Bob]

but every last one of them could be a millionaire if they'd just work hard enough

[RobMoney$]

I gotta be honest with you DS and tell you it pisses me off when people from other countries such as yourself start pointing out flaws with America. If you're really concerned about inequalities in the world, the US is far from the first place you'd begin.

Perhaps it's not our problem really, but the rest of the world's perception that the US is somehow this Utopian society where everyone is treated equally and our streets are paved with gold.
We're just as fucked up, if not more so than everybody else.

[Bob]

I gotta be honest with you DS and tell you it pisses me off when people from other countries such as yourself start pointing out flaws with America. If you're really concerned about inequalities in the world, the US is far from the first place you'd begin.

why should the US be far from the first place to start? we have a democracy here, we have citizens that read the internet and are capable of receiving communications from around the world easily, we're western and industrialized and we're not supposed to be so far behind and if people complain loud enough so that people realize how far behind we actually are, there's actually a real chance that something could come out of it.

compared to say, zimbabwe or haiti

Perhaps it's not our problem really, but the rest of the world's perception that the US is somehow this Utopian society where everyone is treated equally and our streets are paved with gold.


i literally don't know what this sentence means or what it has to do with the last thing you said. what?

[Loppfessor]

but every last one of them could be a millionaire if they'd just work hard enough

Amen brotha...

[yeahwho]

the whole world is high school, especially CANADA

[afronaut]

I gotta be honest with you DS and tell you it pisses me off when people from other countries such as yourself start pointing out flaws with America. If you're really concerned about inequalities in the world, the US is far from the first place you'd begin.

Perhaps it's not our problem really, but the rest of the world's perception that the US is somehow this Utopian society where everyone is treated equally and our streets are paved with gold.
We're just as fucked up, if not more so than everybody else.
America/Americans scrutinize the rest of the world, so why shouldn't the rest of the world scrutinize America? Perhaps you and I realize that America isn't a perfect Utopia, but there are plenty of Americans who truly feel America is "the single best, greatest nation God ever gave man on the face of the Earth," to quote Sean Hannity.

Those people need to hear how things actually are, and realize that we can do better for our people.

[Bob]

"the single best, greatest nation God ever gave man on the face of the Earth," .

haha i forgot about that

[DroppinScience]

I gotta be honest with you DS and tell you it pisses me off when people from other countries such as yourself start pointing out flaws with America. If you're really concerned about inequalities in the world, the US is far from the first place you'd begin.


Instead of throwing a hissy fit that someone from another country directed valid criticism about the States, why don't you pretend that I'm actually from Minnesota or something (if that makes you feel better) and address the report the article discusses instead of the red herring "Oh, damn Canadian sticking his nose in matters that don't concern him" xenophobic line.

[Bob]

Instead of throwing a hissy fit that someone from another country directed valid criticism about the States, why don't you pretend that I'm actually from Minnesota or something (if that makes you feel better) and address the report the article discusses instead of the red herring "Oh, damn Canadian sticking his nose in matters that don't concern him" xenophobic line.

i often actually forget that you're canadian if that makes you feel any better

[RobMoney$]

Instead of throwing a hissy fit that someone from another country directed valid criticism about the States, why don't you pretend that I'm actually from Minnesota or something (if that makes you feel better) and address the report the article discusses instead of the red herring "Oh, damn Canadian sticking his nose in matters that don't concern him" xenophobic line.


...but you're not from Minnesota.

It's criticism alright, but it's not VALID criticism. It's just whinny, and quite frankly the kind of viewpoint that makes people hate bleeding hearts like yourself.

Not everyone in America is the same, some areas of our country have more poverty than other areas. It's not really a secret, and considering the size of the US alone it's practically an impossibility. Expecting everyone in the entire country to have access to the same opportunities is naive at best.

It's called Capitolism DS., no matter how much you and your friend Obama want to want your socialist entitlements for the "less fortunate". It's the reason people risk their fucking lives to get into this country everyday, so they don't have to be 12th generation crap-shovelers.

So go make a fucking thread about the human rights violations and inequality in some socialist country like China for instance. Tell me how fair things are over there.

[Bob]

...but you're not from Minnesota.

It's criticism alright, but it's not VALID criticism. It's just whinny, and quite frankly the kind of viewpoint that makes people hate bleeding hearts like yourself.

Not everyone in America is the same, some areas of our country have more poverty than other areas. It's not really a secret, and considering the size of the US alone it's practically an impossibility. Expecting everyone in the entire country to have access to the same opportunities is naive at best.

It's called Capitolism DS., no matter how much you and your friend Obama want to want your socialist entitlements for the "less fortunate". It's the reason people risk their fucking lives to get into this country everyday, so they don't have to be 12th generation crap-shovelers.

So go make a fucking thread about the human rights violations and inequality in some socialist country like China for instance. Tell me how fair things are over there.

yo, i generally think you're a pretty reasonable guy even if i don't agree with you all the time but you're really coming off as this guy (http://lonewacko.com/images/get-a-brain-morans.jpg) right now which i'm finding kind of unprecedented. what gives man?

[DroppinScience]

...but you're not from Minnesota.

It's criticism alright, but it's not VALID criticism. It's just whinny, and quite frankly the kind of viewpoint that makes people hate bleeding hearts like yourself.

Not everyone in America is the same, some areas of our country have more poverty than other areas. It's not really a secret, and considering the size of the US alone it's practically an impossibility. Expecting everyone in the entire country to have access to the same opportunities is naive at best.

It's called Capitolism DS., no matter how much you and your friend Obama want to want your socialist entitlements for the "less fortunate". It's the reason people risk their fucking lives to get into this country everyday, so they don't have to be 12th generation crap-shovelers.

So go make a fucking thread about the human rights violations and inequality in some socialist country like China for instance. Tell me how fair things are over there.

Aw man, if Obama was really a socialist, that'd be some kick-ass shit. But nevertheless, that's just a pipe dream. Just read what sazi posts: he's a centrist/moderate Democrat.

Anyways, the point of this article is not that there's inequalities in other parts of the world (that's a given, be it a Western industrialized nation to the most crippling poverty of a 3rd world nation), the point is that it's GETTING WORSE for many in the U.S. The one thing you can say about the U.S. is that normally things tend to improve for the less fortunate over the span of history (just look at abolition of slavery to civil rights legislation as one example), but this time the gap between rich and poor and the races is getting to be a big chasm. Sure, I guess you don't care and all you want to focus on is a straw-man argument about "foreigners" criticizing the States, but I'd expect nothing less from you.

But at least you're being honest. Oh and get a dictionary, it's capitAlism. I guess the education crisis in the U.S. was worse than the article said.

[afronaut]

I'm sick of idiots calling Democrats socialists. Thats an insult to socialists, honestly.

If Obama is a socialist, so is Hillary, Bill, and anyone who isn't a Republican, basically.

It's the reason people risk their fucking lives to get into this country everyday, so they don't have to be 12th generation crap-shovelers.
It doesn't really seem that the foreigners risking their lives to get here are doing so to live some capitalist dream. It just seems like they're looking for work; work that usually amounts to crap shoveling or something on that same level.

[QueenAdrock]

...but you're not from Minnesota.

It's criticism alright, but it's not VALID criticism. It's just whinny, and quite frankly the kind of viewpoint that makes people hate bleeding hearts like yourself.

Not everyone in America is the same, some areas of our country have more poverty than other areas. It's not really a secret, and considering the size of the US alone it's practically an impossibility. Expecting everyone in the entire country to have access to the same opportunities is naive at best.

It's called Capitolism DS., no matter how much you and your friend Obama want to want your socialist entitlements for the "less fortunate". It's the reason people risk their fucking lives to get into this country everyday, so they don't have to be 12th generation crap-shovelers.

So go make a fucking thread about the human rights violations and inequality in some socialist country like China for instance. Tell me how fair things are over there.

Jeez, Rob. You're acting as one of those conservatives that can't deal with criticisms of America. He's not saying "I hate America." (I don't date people who hate my homeland; I grew up there and would be incredibly insulted.) He's pointing out the fact that many people think America is the greatest thing since sliced bread, when it's unfounded (thus him saying Glenn Beck & NoFenders should have a look at this report), and that America has potential it's not living up to.

Honestly, it's sad when people just say "Shut up, it's capitalism! Many people want to risk their lives to be in this great country, so don't you dare talk about how it's bad here." It's like you're one of those people that doesn't want to deal with the fact that there's problems in the United States (that CAN be solved -- we're a western nation with the resources to do it, unlike some third world countries), so you point to the fact that it's worse in other countries. Yes, China sucks. Yes, many countries in Africa, Latin America, wherever else, have a lot of problems. But America is a western industrialized nation, and is supposed to be on par with the UK, France, Germany, Canada, and everywhere else. We're supposed to be in a different league than the other countries you point out. We have a democracy. Hell, if people risk their lives everyday to get into America it should be on par with all the others akin to us, right? But it's not. And people turn a blind eye onto that, and instead say "Well, other [non-western industrialized] countries suck more."

Yeah, the other countries are in worse shape. And everyone's aware of that. But no one pretends like they're really great nations that people "look up" to. America is, and that's why the post is a valid criticism. We have the power in America to change how things are, if only people acknowledge the fact that there is a problem that needs to be dealt with, instead of just defending America and pointing out how other places are worse.

[RobMoney$]

Jeez, Rob. You're acting as one of those conservatives that can't deal with criticisms of America. He's not saying "I hate America." (I don't date people who hate my homeland; I grew up there and would be incredibly insulted.) He's pointing out the fact that many people think America is the greatest thing since sliced bread, when it's unfounded (thus him saying Glenn Beck & NoFenders should have a look at this report), and that America has potential it's not living up to.

Honestly, it's sad when people just say "Shut up, it's capitalism! Many people want to risk their lives to be in this great country, so don't you dare talk about how it's bad here." It's like you're one of those people that doesn't want to deal with the fact that there's problems in the United States (that CAN be solved -- we're a western nation with the resources to do it, unlike some third world countries), so you point to the fact that it's worse in other countries. Yes, China sucks. Yes, many countries in Africa, Latin America, wherever else, have a lot of problems. But America is a western industrialized nation, and is supposed to be on par with the UK, France, Germany, Canada, and everywhere else. We're supposed to be in a different league than the other countries you point out. We have a democracy. Hell, if people risk their lives everyday to get into America it should be on par with all the others akin to us, right? But it's not. And people turn a blind eye onto that, and instead say "Well, other [non-western industrialized] countries suck more."

Yeah, the other countries are in worse shape. And everyone's aware of that. But no one pretends like they're really great nations that people "look up" to. America is, and that's why the post is a valid criticism. We have the power in America to change how things are, if only people acknowledge the fact that there is a problem that needs to be dealt with, instead of just defending America and pointing out how other places are worse.


I never meant to imply that Brett Lambert hated the US. I never said anything like that. What bothers me is when anyone (be thay American or not) criticizes the US all the time for things that are pretty irrelevant.

The US isn't perfect,...welcome to the year 2008! Maybe the rest of the world should wake up and realize that America isn't the Utopian society they may have been led to believe it is.
I mean what's your point? Do you believe that every American man, woman, and child ever had the same opportunities? Has there ever been a nation in the history of the world that has? I think America has come about as close as anyone ever has to giving opportunity to all of it's citizens.

Brett Lambert or anyone else can make all the criticisms they want about the inequalities in this country. I'm not saying they shouldn't. I'm just saying it's a whinny POV and makes you look like a bleeding heart crying about an issue seemingly just to have something to cry about.

[Bob]

I think America has come about as close as anyone ever has to giving opportunity to all of it's citizens.


i think the whole point of the article is that america is actually way behind the other industrialized nations in that respect? i mean it said

"“Some Americans are living anywhere from 30 to 50 years behind others when it comes to issues we all care about: health, education and standard of living,” said Sarah Burd-Sharps co-author of the report.

Although the US is one of the most powerful and rich nations in the world, the study concludes it is “woefully behind when it comes to providing opportunity and choices to all Americans to build a better life”."

so your counter to that is "who cares"? i think quite a few of us do...

[QueenAdrock]

I mean what's your point? Do you believe that every American man, woman, and child ever had the same opportunities? Has there ever been a nation in the history of the world that has? I think America has come about as close as anyone ever has to giving opportunity to all of it's citizens.

"Although the US is one of the most powerful and rich nations in the world, the study concludes it is “woefully behind when it comes to providing opportunity and choices to all Americans to build a better life”."

That's the point. We always says how we're number one, perhaps we should change the way things are and start acting like it. Instead of saying, "Oh, well. We tried, things aren't perfect, but nothing ever is," it's important to realize that America HASN'T really tried. It's far behind everyone else in the western world in terms of giving its citizens opportunities. It's a common misconception among Americans that it's "come as close as anyone ever has."

America needs to get up off its ass and change things around instead of giving the defeatist attitude of "Meh, nobody's perfect." America has the ability to do great things; people should push for change instead of just accepting the way things are. Easier said than done, but perhaps if people are more educated on how the US stacks up against other democratic countries, it'll be a wake-up call.

What bothers me is when anyone (be thay American or not) criticizes the US all the time for things that are pretty irrelevant.

I fail to see where this study is 'irrelevant'. Why do you believe that?

[RobMoney$]

I consider myself a conservative leaning Democrat. I wholeheartedly believe in having government programs to HELP people in need, but I have to admit I get highly annoyed when I hear about government programs being abused by people who don't really need them.

I have a member of my family who's only 28, still lives at home with his parents and is unemployed. He doesn't have psychological problems, and he's far from unintelligent. He's probably been a bit smothered by his overbearing parents who do everything for him though.

Anyway, last month we found out that he was diagnosed with a grapefruit sized tumor on his testicle and it was discovered that the cancer had spread to various other parts of his body including his brain. He claims this tumor had formed in a little less than a month and he didn't seek medical attention for it because he was scared and highly embarressed and he was hoping it was just something that was gonna go away.

Being he's unemployed, he has no health insurance. After learning of his condition, the staff at the hospital gave his mother complete instructions on where to go to sign up for Welfare and SSI to pay for his medical bills. They immediatley got him enrolled with Medical Assistance which was great, but they also signed him up for an Access card (welfare money) and food stamps. Not only that, they also informed him that he was eligable for SSI (more $$$).
They weren't interested in taking any money from any program because Mom & Dad do quite well for themselves and don't have a need for funds, only insurance. The family is almost being forced to take money from the Government they don't want.
Now this is a case where someone who actually needed the governmet program (Med. Assistance) got it, but why'd they force him to take the $160 in cash a month if he tells them he doesn't need it?
How many people who go into a clinic for Methadone to get off Heroin or are just Alcoholics are given the same access to all these government programs that they don't really need and more importantly don't deserve? Better yet, the Medical Assistance that people get from the Government is better coverage than what I get through my employer that I have to co-pay over $300 a month for my family and me. All medical bills are covered 100%.

I'm very relieved for my family member who got help he needed and doesn't have to worry about paying thousands of dollars in bills. But there's an example of something I can point to from my own experience and see that something is broken with the system.

Here are a couple of analogies about socialism and how we ultimitely loose our freedom when we expect government do what we should do for ourselves.

I was talking to this little girl, Catherine, the daughter of some friends, and she said she wanted to be President someday.

Both of her parents, liberal Democrats were standing there with us and I asked Catherine, 'If you were President what would be the first thing you would do?'

Catherine replied, 'I would give houses to all the homeless people.'

'Wow, what a worthy goal you have there, Catherine.' I told her, 'but you don't have to wait until you're President. You can start now by coming over to my house and cleaning up all the dog poop in my back yard and I will pay you $5 dollars. Then we can go over to the grocery store where the homeless guy hangs out, and you can give him the $5 dollars to use for a new house.'

Catherine (who is about 4) thought that over for a second, while her mom looked at me seething, and Catherine replied, 'Why doesn't the homeless guy come over and clean up the dog poop and you can just pay him the $5 dollars?'



Catching Wild Pigs

A chemistry professor in a large college had some exchange students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab the professor noticed one young man (exchange student) who kept rubbing his back, and stretching as if his back hurt. The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new communist government.

In the midst of his story, he looked at the professor and asked a strange question. He asked, "Do you know how to catch wild pigs?" The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said this was no joke. "You catch wild pig s by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in the last side."

"The pigs, which are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat, you slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd. Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity."

The young man then to ld the professor, "That is exactly what he sees happening to America. The government keeps pushing us toward socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc. While we continually lose
our freedoms - just a little at a time."

One should always remember: There is no such thing as a free lunch. A politician will never provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.

In this "very important" election year, listen closely to what the candidates are promising you.

Remember this quote: "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."

[roosta]

I gotta be honest with you DS and tell you it pisses me off when people from other countries such as yourself start pointing out flaws with America. If you're really concerned about inequalities in the world, the US is far from the first place you'd begin.


By this logic, you can't point out flaws with other countries. So I don't want to see you do that, ok? I'll be watching. (!)

[RobMoney$]

(!) Like I'm concerned with the political climate in Ireland?

[Bob]

I consider myself a conservative leaning Democrat. I wholeheartedly believe in having government programs to HELP people in need, but I have to admit I get highly annoyed when I hear about government programs being abused by people who don't really need them.

I have a member of my family who's only 28, still lives at home with his parents and is unemployed. He doesn't have psychological problems, and he's far from unintelligent. He's probably been a bit smothered by his overbearing parents who do everything for him though.

Anyway, last month we found out that he was diagnosed with a grapefruit sized tumor on his testicle and it was discovered that the cancer had spread to various other parts of his body including his brain. He claims this tumor had formed in a little less than a month and he didn't seek medical attention for it because he was scared and highly embarressed and he was hoping it was just something that was gonna go away.

Being he's unemployed, he has no health insurance. After learning of his condition, the staff at the hospital gave his mother complete instructions on where to go to sign up for Welfare and SSI to pay for his medical bills. They immediatley got him enrolled with Medical Assistance which was great, but they also signed him up for an Access card (welfare money) and food stamps. Not only that, they also informed him that he was eligable for SSI (more $$$).
They weren't interested in taking any money from any program because Mom & Dad do quite well for themselves and don't have a need for funds, only insurance. The family is almost being forced to take money from the Government they don't want.
Now this is a case where someone who actually needed the governmet program (Med. Assistance) got it, but why'd they force him to take the $160 in cash a month if he tells them he doesn't need it?
How many people who go into a clinic for Methadone to get off Heroin or are just Alcoholics are given the same access to all these government programs that they don't really need and more importantly don't deserve? Better yet, the Medical Assistance that people get from the Government is better coverage than what I get through my employer that I have to co-pay over $300 a month for my family and me. All medical bills are covered 100%.

I'm very relieved for my family member who got help he needed and doesn't have to worry about paying thousands of dollars in bills. But there's an example of something I can point to from my own experience and see that something is broken with the system.

Here are a couple of analogies about socialism and how we ultimitely loose our freedom when we expect government do what we should do for ourselves.

so....america provides opportunity to its...citizens?

i'm not trying to be patronizing but i don't understand how what you just said has anything to do with your original point about how inequality in the US compared to other countries isn't that bad. is your point now that the inequalities inherent in the system are a good thing? or rather that the system itself is a good thing and that the wide inequalities that come along with it are just part of the package or...what are you talking about? if i'm understanding you correctly, what you're saying is "socialism is bad" but i'm not sure we were actually talking about socialism in the first place.

i don't think there needs to be such a binary choice between "huge gap between rich and the poor capitalist dystopia" and "welfare queens draining the bank socialist dystopia". can't there be something in the middle? isn't that where all of the other industrialized countries are trying to be?

[DroppinScience]

It's hard to know where Rob is going with posts like these other than wanting to be antagonistic for the sake of being antagonistic.

I don't know whether Rob even read the original article.

[Bob]

also i love right wing analogies about socialism. the lesson i'm supposed to learn is that i'm a wild pig and that if homeless people want to stop being homeless they should get jobs picking the shit out of rich peoples' backyards? lol it's so simple

[DroppinScience]

Oh yeah, and I like the cliched line from conservatives of "Well, I'm fine with welfare and social assistance programs and everything, but I hate it when the system is abused."

On face value, yeah sure, I can agree with this... but what evidence is there of the system being "abused"? What data is out there to support these perceptions? Yeah, I have no doubt that there are those who just want a government cheque, drink a six-pack, and do nothing all day. Heck, you may even provide an anecdotal case of someone you know (or know of) who is doing this (but Rob's case of the unemployed 28 year old isn't even quite the best example of a system being "abused" and more of a bureaucratic slip-up). If we were to go by these stories alone, you'd think there are masses and masses of "welfare queens" in every corner milking the system. Chances are this is more rhetoric to argue against cutting funding to or abandoning social programs altogether. If you're out in the real world, you'll know the vast majority of people on welfare are those who need it and would love nothing more than anything to be off of it as soon as possible until they get their feet back on the ground. I mean, those monthly cheques are peanuts and it's not going to get you very far. Not exactly the lap of luxury of a "welfare queen."

[DroppinScience]

also i love right wing analogies about socialism. the lesson i'm supposed to learn is that i'm a wild pig and that if homeless people want to stop being homeless they should get jobs picking the shit out of rich peoples' backyards? lol it's so simple

And the only way this scenario of the homeless to get out of their situation by picking up dog shit would work would be if there are enough rich people willing to hire all the homeless people to do the job. Usually there's more people than backyards that need cleaning up.

[Bob]

Oh yeah, and I like the cliched line from conservatives of "Well, I'm fine with welfare and social assistance programs and everything, but I hate it when the system is abused."

On face value, yeah sure, I can agree with this... but what evidence is there of the system being "abused"? What data is out there to support these perceptions? Yeah, I have no doubt that there are those who just want a government cheque, drink a six-pack, and do nothing all day. Heck, you may even provide an anecdotal case of someone you know (or know of) who is doing this (but Rob's case of the unemployed 28 year old isn't even quite the best example of a system being "abused" and more of a bureaucratic slip-up). If we were to go by these stories alone, you'd think there are masses and masses of "welfare queens" in every corner milking the system. Chances are this is more rhetoric to argue against cutting funding to or abandoning social programs altogether. If you're out in the real world, you'll know the vast majority of people on welfare are those who need it and would love nothing more than anything to be off of it as soon as possible until they get their feet back on the ground. I mean, those monthly cheques are peanuts and it's not going to get you very far. Not exactly the lap of luxury of a "welfare queen."

i don't know, i don't think it's such a stretch to say that some people are abusing the system. i don't have any numbers handy, but i'm not about to argue that it doesn't happen. i don't know that it's as huge of a problem as the right wing likes to say it is but i'm willing to concede that it happens.

but my question is, what system could you possibly design that WOULDN'T be open to abuse? welfare is an administrative nightmare. you have to keep track of all the people that need help and you have to keep on top of all of them and determine the precise moment when they no longer need help and cut them off. you're supposed to track them and figure out if they're actually trying to find a job or if they're just collecting their checks and being lazy. you have to figure out who actually needs the help and who's pretending. from a bureaucratic point of view, how are you ever going to create a welfare system in a country as big and complicated as america that people aren't going to abuse?

i think that as long as there's a welfare system, there are going to be people who abuse the system. it sucks and it isn't right but it's just a hazard that comes along with it. it's like crime, there are always going to be people who are going to break the rules and you're not going to catch all of them. i don't see how you could ever set up a welfare system that couldn't be abused. it just annoys me how eager some people are to point to the fact of abuse and use it as an excuse to promote either shutting down the system entirely or making it so useless that it doesn't even help the people who it's actually designed to help. a society without welfare would be so much better? we tried that, it sucked, that's why we invented welfare.

[RobMoney$]

How about honest people who are only asking for medical care for their son with cancer just getting Medical coverage. They don't need and don't want money or food stamps.

We, as a nation, are giving people things they don't even want. It's obscene. When you compare that to other countries such as China, N. Korea or Venezuala you'll see that there's really not so much to complain about.

[Bob]

How about honest people who are only asking for medical care for their son with cancer just getting Medical coverage. They don't need and don't want money or food stamps.

We, as a nation, are giving people things they don't even want. It's obscene. When you compare that to other countries such as China, N. Korea or Venezuala you'll see that there's really not so much to complain about.

but when you compare that to other countries such as canada, england, or france (you know, comparable countries)....? because i think that was the original argument here, which i'm not sure you've ever addressed

[roosta]

(!) Like I'm concerned with the political climate in Ireland?

:confused:

i don't know if you are or not.

but it doesn't matter if you are concerned with the political climate of anywhere that isn't the US..because you now can't comment.

[Pres Zount]

Jesus Christ, it's not that hard. The US is seen, and boasts to be the world leader in everything. It has a powerful military, an all encompassing economy, and a culture that spreads itself anywhere it settles in.

The rest of the world gets news about the US every day. So when someone OUTSIDE the US makes a comment ON the US.... don't be so fucking surprised.

Nobody is stopping you from commenting on China or North Korea or Venezuela, Rob, sure, you'll be a hypocrite not but I'm sure we all get that sometimes. We all live on the same planet.

And Ireland might be far away, but it has a pretty rich history, and a very interesting political climate. If you could tear yourself away from the 'One Country One Comment' theory, you might see that the rest of the world is worth commenting on.

Yeah, ok, I missed the boat on Rob Money bashing, sorry.

[RobMoney$]

but when you compare that to other countries such as canada, england, or france (you know, comparable countries)....? because i think that was the original argument here, which i'm not sure you've ever addressed


We're in the middle of a recession because of eight years of Georgie-boy maxing out the credit card way beyond the limit. Do you think federal entitlement programs are insulated from the effects of that?

Our dollar is the equivilent of fucking Canada's dollar for chripes sake and the only thing they produce is fucking maple syrup & crown royal and you're advocating more government entitlement programs for the homeless guy down by the grocery store because the US isn't "equivelent" as france?

FUCK FRANCE!

I could care less if we're on par with fucking france or not or if we're the #1 nation in the world or not (whatever that means). If we're #42 then so what, that's what we are. Maybe that's too much of a shock to some people's American ego or something, but not to mine. Michael Moore's already publicized these numbers in Sicko about where America stands as far as America's life expectancy compared to the rest of the world and such.

What I'm saying is that maybe what we need is fewer giveaways so that America and it's citizens had more money in their pockets to hire the homeless guy at the grocery store to clean up the dog shit. Capice?

[RobMoney$]

The US is seen, and boasts to be the world leader in everything. It has a powerful military, an all encompassing economy, and a culture that spreads itself anywhere it settles in.

The rest of the world gets news about the US every day. So when someone OUTSIDE the US makes a comment ON the US.... don't be so fucking surprised.


Guess what, we're not #1. B.O.O.H.O.O.

Maybe if peeled yourself away from the fucking idiot box TV for a few minutes a day and concerned yourself with your own country's economics maybe your country would be better off.

[RobMoney$]

:confused:

i don't know if you are or not.

but it doesn't matter if you are concerned with the political climate of anywhere that isn't the US..because you now can't comment.


I don't have a problem with people criticizing the US for something VALID, like the war in Iraq. I do have a problem with ANYONE criticizing the US for something (equality) that the US practically invented. I don't care what one report says, go to france and see if you'll be given the same opportunities as an immigrant as you are in the US.

If you're concerned with inequality, make a thread about China. Or better yet, go live there then tell me how bad the US's equality is.


It'd be like me making a thread saying Ireland doesn't have enough drunken ginge's roaming the earth.

[Documad]

The rest of the world gets news about the US every day. So when someone OUTSIDE the US makes a comment ON the US.... don't be so fucking surprised.
This is true. In fact, when I'm in a foreign country, I notice that sometimes the coverage of the situation in the US is more in depth than what we see in the US itself. People watch the speeches of US politicians for content and a hint to where the country might be heading rather than just for the horserace like our cable news stations. People all over the world have expectations for Obama. The problem is that there expectations cannot be met -- especially the expectations of muslim peoples in other countries. I hope that if he's elected everyone will settle for him being substantially better than George W. Bush.

What happens in the US affects people in most other countries, whether we or the people in those countries like it. And I have a greater than natural interest in British politics, FYI. :o

[Pres Zount]

Guess what, we're not #1. B.O.O.H.O.O.

Maybe if peeled yourself away from the fucking idiot box TV for a few minutes a day and concerned yourself with your own country's economics maybe your country would be better off.

Right, because having an interest and an opinion on various events and topics from all over the globe causes ECONOMIC HARDSHIPS IN AUSTRALIA.

Also, can you please, please, pretty please say "The US invented equality" because I want to have a tidy sentence in my signature, rather than have to edit your original one.

[QueenAdrock]

If you're concerned with inequality, make a thread about China. Or better yet, go live there then tell me how bad the US's equality is.

You keep missing the point, or just ignoring it. We're not comparing the US to China because that's like comparing apples to oranges. We're trying to compare two LIKE things. China is completely government-run and undemocratic, so they are not expected to be like us, who claims to have freedom, "equality", and democracy. Those are the things that America says it stands for, and is therefore what sets it apart from countries such as China. Compared to other countries who claim to have the same ideals, our equality is pathetic.

If we're #42 then so what, that's what we are.
I know you're a pessimist, but damn. It makes me sad to hear how far behind we are to where we should be. I don't know how you can just sit back and say "Well, that's what we are. Deal with it." America has so much money and so much potential to be great; it should be a goal to strive for greatness.

And, yeah, Canada produces maple syrup & crown royal. Also most of the timber, natural gas, and oil that the US wants. Alberta has North America's largest supply of oil under the tar sands up north. With oil in such high demand, it's no wonder why the Canadian dollar is so strong.

Do you honestly think Americans are going to hire homeless people to shovel dog crap? Have you ever thought about hiring a homeless man to help clean your house, if you had enough money? Most people are afraid of the homeless; they haven't showered in months and are usually dirty and grizzled (and yes, a lot of them may have mental problems), and you're saying that you think the average joe would hire them to work for them? Much less a respectable company where they could make some decent wages? It's easy to say "They should get jobs and no handouts," but they need handouts (showers, food, clean clothes, etc.) in order to get the jobs. So yeah, while some abuse the system, you can see where it's needed in order to get a leg up. The homeless guys you see on the street aren't abusing the system though. Most of the time they're beggars and live on benches and don't even go to shelters.

[roosta]

It'd be like me making a thread saying Ireland doesn't have enough drunken ginge's roaming the earth.

We gave the world drunken ginge's, you gave the world fat ignoramuses.

Fair is fair I guess.

[Bob]

I don't have a problem with people criticizing the US for something VALID, like the war in Iraq. I do have a problem with ANYONE criticizing the US for something (equality) that the US practically invented. I don't care what one report says, go to france and see if you'll be given the same opportunities as an immigrant as you are in the US.

If you're concerned with inequality, make a thread about China. Or better yet, go live there then tell me how bad the US's equality is.


It'd be like me making a thread saying Ireland doesn't have enough drunken ginge's roaming the earth.

dude forget about china. america is a better place to live with more equality and opportunity than most places in the world such as china, venezuela, saudi arabia, the dark heart of the amazon, etc etc, nobody's arguing with you about that, that's off the table, stop bringing it up and acting like you're winning every time you do. "better than china" is nothing to brag about

what i think we're trying desperately to argue about here is whether the gap between the rich and the poor is wider than in other, comparable countries (not china) and whether that's a bad thing that should/could be fixed. if i'm following you correctly, your position has alternatively been "it's not that wide" "it's wide but who cares, it's not that bad, it isn't a valid complaint" and "shut up about it, foreigner".

so i mean i'm confused

[afronaut]

Guess what, we're not #1. B.O.O.H.O.O.

Maybe if peeled yourself away from the fucking idiot box TV for a few minutes a day and concerned yourself with your own country's economics maybe your country would be better off.
Maybe if Americans looked at the information presented in the first post instead of worrying about those pesky foreigners criticizing America, America would be better off. Just maybe.

[RobMoney$]

what i think we're trying desperately to argue about here is whether the gap between the rich and the poor is wider than in other, comparable countries (not china) and whether that's a bad thing that should/could be fixed. if i'm following you correctly, your position has alternatively been "it's not that wide" "it's wide but who cares, it's not that bad, it isn't a valid complaint" and "shut up about it, foreigner".

so i mean i'm confused

First off don't patronize me, OK.

Now let's debate this paragraph because were narrowing it down.

The article stated that people in Connecticut have a longer life expectancy, better infant mortality rate, and more opportunity to succeed than say people in rural Mississippi, correct?


So tell me, exactly what opportunities do the citizens of Connecticut have that the citizens of Mississippi don't?

Is it because the Government isn't giving people opportunity, or is it people aren't taking advantage of that same opportunity?

Mississippi is generally farming country, people work harder and are generally less educated which in theory would lend itself to a shorter lifespan.
I believe Connecticut has the highest amount of Universities and Colleges per capita of any state in the nation. It stands to reason that they're going to be better educated. Which will help them earn a better living, which will in turn help them afford a healthier diet and better healthcare, right. There's also the residual benefit of practically being the suburb of NYC, the economic center of the world.

I fail to see how this is a problem the government needs to solve.

[RobMoney$]

We gave the world drunken ginge's, you gave the world fat ignoramuses.

Fair is fair I guess.


Hey, I'm part Irish so the joke's on you Jack.

[Otis Driftwood]

One of my best friends is from Wales and he's on a local internet forum which I also scan for what's happening in these parts, Munich to be precise. In a lot of threads people from India or Africa complain about racist bouncers and door policies in night-clubs, which is met with understanding by everyone but the brits. They are mostly like: "Don't ever go again." or "It musta been your shoes." WTF?

[DroppinScience]

What I'm saying is that maybe what we need is fewer giveaways so that America and it's citizens had more money in their pockets to hire the homeless guy at the grocery store to clean up the dog shit. Capice?

Wow, you sound like you're one of the McCain campaign's economic advisers (you know, the guy who said everyone is a whiner because they lost their homes and jobs) with this bullshit line of reasoning for America's current economic woes.

And have you even looked at the current welfare system in the States? After 28 years of Reagans, Bushes, and Clintons, they have vastly slashed funding to the welfare state that it barely resembles FDR's New Deal. Believe me, welfare queens are not what is draining the economy. What's draining the economy are endless, illegal wars and neo-conservative economic plans that screw over the little guy and reward the richest 2%.

Countries such as Canada or the UK still have a larger welfare state and you're not seeing their economies in the toilet quite like America.

With your economic insights, I'm surprised your name isn't Alan Greenspan. :rolleyes:

[Pres Zount]

Hey, I'm part Irish so the joke's on you Jack.

He basically just called you a fat ignoramus, and you're comeback is "Hey, I'm drunken, too!"

[RobMoney$]

Yeah, that was wrong.

[Bob]

Hey how's zorra?

what the hell are you doing?

[NoFenders]

There's nothing really shocking about this article. It just shows how our country has taken a nose dive due to media and Hollywood in general.

It shows that most Americans have a false sense of reality.Nothing more really.


:cool:

[Bob]

glad you were here to clear that up for us. you should have been a journalist

[NoFenders]

No thanks. But I am glad you see my point.

:cool:

[Bob]

Yeah, that was wrong.

now i wish i could edit my post too

nothing to see here or anywhere, move along