Mortgage Crisis

[DroppinScience]

You want the full human impact of the mortgage crisis? Watch what happened to the Slavic Village neighborhood in Cleveland, Ohio. We're reliving Hoover all over again.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07182008/watch.html

[The Notorious LOL]

PBS had a story similar to this about the Northside of Minneapolis that was fascinating. Supposedly Slavic Village is the worst of the worst in the US when it comes to blight from foreclosures.

[NoFenders]

More people making bad choices for themselves because they wanted something for nothing.


:cool:

[QueenAdrock]

Yeah, I guess that's why it's happening to thousands of people all at once. They all got together and planned to get something for nothing at the same exact time. It's completely within their control; why they all decided to get together and make bad choices is beyond me.

:rolleyes:

[DroppinScience]

More people making bad choices for themselves because they wanted something for nothing.


:cool:

If you watched the video or read anything about the matter (which I know you didn't, you haven't learned to read yet), you'd know that the banks were using predatory lending schemes to people who couldn't possibly pay them back.

Another thing in the Moyers piece I linked is that of TENANTS falling victim to the mortgage crisis. These tenants were paying their rents on time each and every month, however their landlords were not paying the mortgage. The result? The tenants get evicted from their homes through literally no faults of their own.

Nice try.

[yeahwho]

Yeah, I guess that's why it's happening to thousands of people all at once. They all got together and planned to get something for nothing at the same exact time. It's completely within their control; why they all decided to get together and make bad choices is beyond me.

:rolleyes:

They're doing it California (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-fi-foreclose23-2008jul23,0,1950103.story)!

They're doing it in Virginia and Maryland! Right around our Capital! (http://www.wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=1445232)

These people are making poor decisions everywhere! But it's kind of FUNNY! (http://losangeles.injuryboard.com/miscellaneous/bush-makes-fun-of-housing-crisis-wall-street-got-drunk.aspx?googleid=244270)

It's happening in Arizona (http://www.azstarnet.com/business/249511)and Texas! (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-BankCrash_21bus.ART.State.Edition2.4d58396.html)

700,000 plus foreclosures this year alone.

Stupid people, they deserve to be punished. Somebody should bailout these poor mortgage brokers, they need some sort of entitlement and helping hand from those folks trying to rip them off.

[King PSYZ]

The problem is everyone is to blame for this mess. And it sickens me that my tax dollars are bailing out people who threw common sense out the window to live beyond their means and to help out scumbag bankers who make my yearly wage in a week of bilking these same people.

Common sense should tell you if you make minimum wage, no you cannot afford to buy a house. Much less a 300k one. Owning a a home is the American Dream™ not the American Birthright©, when it is give me the keys to my 4 bedroom house with a pool...

Common sense should tell you if you make just a little more than what you need to pay your current bills and mortgage, you should be buying a second or god forbid third home. You're not a broker, you're a middle class wageslave.

Common sense should tell you that $1000/mo will not add up to $300k+ in 30 years and that extra money has to come from somewhere. So to cry about how they didn't realise just means they had no business buying a home if simple math escapes them.

The banks are equally to blame though, they knew these people couldn't pay. But it used to be worth it to make these loans because they made their money and just kept turning the houses to the next group of suckers. The problem came around when the banks got too greedy and the colapse of credit ratings for so many famillies over the years and plumetting real estate costs left the banks holding the bag, causing people with repsonsible loans to get ripped off, causing many people's 401k retirement plans to loose up to 15% of their value, ect.

My girlfriend's mother can afford her home, but because the real estate market was so chaotic, when she needed to refi to help out one of her other daughters (one of those living beyond their means types) the real estate guy and broker involved ripped her off.

[yeahwho]

The problem is everyone is to blame for this mess. And it sickens me that my tax dollars are bailing out people who threw common sense out the window to live beyond their means and to help out scumbag bankers who make my yearly wage in a week of bilking these same people.

Common sense should tell you if you make minimum wage, no you cannot afford to buy a house. Much less a 300k one. Owning a a home is the American Dream™ not the American Birthright©, when it is give me the keys to my 4 bedroom house with a pool...

Common sense should tell you if you make just a little more than what you need to pay your current bills and mortgage, you should be buying a second or god forbid third home. You're not a broker, you're a middle class wageslave.

Common sense should tell you that $1000/mo will not add up to $300k+ in 30 years and that extra money has to come from somewhere. So to cry about how they didn't realise just means they had no business buying a home if simple math escapes them.

The banks are equally to blame though, they knew these people couldn't pay. But it used to be worth it to make these loans because they made their money and just kept turning the houses to the next group of suckers. The problem came around when the banks got too greedy and the colapse of credit ratings for so many famillies over the years and plumetting real estate costs left the banks holding the bag, causing people with repsonsible loans to get ripped off, causing many people's 401k retirement plans to loose up to 15% of their value, ect.

My girlfriend's mother can afford her home, but because the real estate market was so chaotic, when she needed to refi to help out one of her other daughters (one of those living beyond their means types) the real estate guy and broker involved ripped her off.
There is enough blame to go around for everyone, but really many scenarios are caused beyond the average wageslaves control, such as layoffs, health problems and just keeping up with rising energy costs.

Who knew Bush would be this bad?

A guy I worked with just switched his 30 year loan to a 50 year loan to help payoff his now ex-wife.

He's 27 and he has two kids a house and a 50 year loan, doing that math depresses me.

[yeahwho]

Also two things developing due to this crisis, one bad is the mortgage companies are rising mortgage rates to help bailout themselves, article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/23/business/23rates.html?em&ex=1216958400&en=f25a5b60e4209751&ei=5087%0A), chart (http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/07/23/business/0723-nat-webRATES.gif).

The other King PSYZ may not like and that is this move today, George W. Bush has dropped his opposition to the Housing Bill moving through Congress, clearing the way for a broad package of legislation that would shore up the nation’s troubled mortgage companies, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and help struggling homeowners refinance loans. Article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/business/24housing.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin)

[DroppinScience]

The problem is everyone is to blame for this mess. And it sickens me that my tax dollars are bailing out people who threw common sense out the window to live beyond their means and to help out scumbag bankers who make my yearly wage in a week of bilking these same people.

Common sense should tell you if you make minimum wage, no you cannot afford to buy a house. Much less a 300k one. Owning a a home is the American Dream™ not the American Birthright©, when it is give me the keys to my 4 bedroom house with a pool...

Common sense should tell you if you make just a little more than what you need to pay your current bills and mortgage, you should be buying a second or god forbid third home. You're not a broker, you're a middle class wageslave.

Common sense should tell you that $1000/mo will not add up to $300k+ in 30 years and that extra money has to come from somewhere. So to cry about how they didn't realise just means they had no business buying a home if simple math escapes them.

The banks are equally to blame though, they knew these people couldn't pay. But it used to be worth it to make these loans because they made their money and just kept turning the houses to the next group of suckers. The problem came around when the banks got too greedy and the colapse of credit ratings for so many famillies over the years and plumetting real estate costs left the banks holding the bag, causing people with repsonsible loans to get ripped off, causing many people's 401k retirement plans to loose up to 15% of their value, ect.

My girlfriend's mother can afford her home, but because the real estate market was so chaotic, when she needed to refi to help out one of her other daughters (one of those living beyond their means types) the real estate guy and broker involved ripped her off.

I see what you're saying, but I place much more blame towards predatory lending practices than the individuals who (unwisely) took a loan from said predators. It's like blaming the victim for a rape because she wore a short skirt.

Shit like THIS the normal person cannot control:

California's big IndyMac Bank went down with a crash, the second worst collapse in U.S. history and sent thousands of depositors out looking for their money. The FDIC, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, took over as reports circulated that the FBI is investigating IndyMac for mortgage fraud. Analysts are predicting that as many as 150 of the 7,500 banks in America may fail over the next 18 months, and one analyst even said that number might double over the next 3 years.

More text from the video...

Here's what happened: The kinds of people who lived in Slavic Village were prime candidates for sub-prime loans; many of them were retired, so they'd already paid off most of their old mortgages but they were living on fixed incomes, so they didn't have enough cash on hand to repair regular wear and tear on their homes.
...

So they did what Americans have done for decades - they tapped into that equity by re-mortgaging their homes. But the rules of the game had changed: Mortgage brokers and unscrupulous lenders were practically beating down Clevelanders' front doors, offering loans that were too good to be true.

...

Cuyahoga County treasurer Jim Rokakis has been following the crisis for close to a decade and trying to clean up the mess. He said the loans on offer weren't like anything that borrowers had ever encountered before:

Jim Rokakis:"You'd tell them, 'I don't have any money.' 'No problem, we don't, you don't require a down payment.' Or, 'I have a horrible credit score.' 'No problem, we're not gonna let that get in the way.' 'But I don't even have job.' 'No problem. We're not gonna document your income.' I mean, it really, in some cases, was that extreme. And it gets worse. I've sat in on probably 100 counseling sessions, people facing foreclosure. I'd say the majority of people fit the criteria of not having enough income, didn't come in with a down payment, had a bad credit score. Most of them got cash back at the close. How's that for an incentive?"

Rokakis says the new loans were a bad deal for borrowers. Their terms could be confusing, with shifting interest rates and so-called "balloon payments." Homeowners got smacked with higher monthly costs, unexpected fees and tax bills and stiff penalties if they fell behind. Once the banks foreclosed and homeowners moved out, the buildings just sat empty. All that the neighbors could do was watch them crumble.

And the real victim here is the person that lives on that block, that person who pays their taxes, plays by the rules, has done nothing to deserve what they're facing today, which is a devastated neighborhood, with their most valuable asset, their home, now worth virtually nothing. That's the victim.

Still want to blame the victim?

[NoFenders]

When it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

The victim is the guy who still has a house??? Huh????

So, because my property value stopped doubling I'm now the victim?? I knew the bottom was going to drop out eventually. It couldn't last forever. Nobody else knew this??

When you buy a house, shouldn't you do some research as far as what you're buying, and what your agreement is?? Or do you just rush into it because you want that house that you know you can't afford and then say "I was misled!".

It's really sad that nobody can take any blame anymore, and that there's a whole army at their disposal. Guess who will make money out of this one. It wont be the guy who made a bad choice. It'll be the guy who made a choice to become a lawyer.

:cool:

[yeahwho]

This is a two part problem, not a one part problem. Irresponsible borrowers and greedy lenders, the usual laws that prevented this current debt scenario have been lobbied away by the credit bankers. Practices like unexpected rate increases and double-cycle billing. Lowering of income and assets to get approval on loans.

Math is not friendly to the average joe working for say Federated Stores, Wal-Mart, Ford Motor Company and so on. The math is designed to fleece everybody and always has been, but this latest round of lending practices has been nothing more than predatory.

The moral of the story is there is no moral. Like my dad told me when I moved out of the house, "Son, 24 hours a day somebody is trying to find a way to get your money". Well they just keep getting more and more vicious about doing that.

[QueenAdrock]

NoFenders, obviously, you managed to selectively not read this post:

Another thing in the Moyers piece I linked is that of TENANTS falling victim to the mortgage crisis. These tenants were paying their rents on time each and every month, however their landlords were not paying the mortgage. The result? The tenants get evicted from their homes through literally no faults of their own.

Also, I agree with Brett on this point:

I place much more blame towards predatory lending practices than the individuals who (unwisely) took a loan from said predators. It's like blaming the victim for a rape because she wore a short skirt.

But you seem like the kind of guy who would say that rape victims aren't victims. They should have worn something less seductive that night, they shouldn't have been out unaccompanied that night, there's no one to blame but yourself for every situation and everything that happens to you, right?

I'm all about taking responsibility for your actions, but it's not so black and white that that applies 100% to every situation. There are some situations where you have to say, "No, the person shouldn't have done this, but it's not right that he got taken advantage of that badly." There's more than one person to blame in this situation, and I place the blame higher on skeezy companies who take advantage of people.

[NoFenders]

It doesn't surprise me.



:cool:

[King PSYZ]

Usually I would agree with the Queen and the Scientifical one on most issues, but you guys got it wrong this time.

This isn't blaming the victim, because the "victim" still has a house and is now going to get a government subsidised loan at an incrediblly low rate, well below market rates as well as being given a break on fees and such. Also having looked into this recently they get to finance the home they bought a year or more ago at CURRENT MARKET VALUE.

This means people who irresponsibly bought homes well outside of their means are being rewarded for their actions by getting that same home at half or more off original price.

How is that fair to me or any other American living within their means and using common sense?

I could have bought a house easily in the last 3 years, hell I even make a decent ammount of money all things considered and could probablly afford a small home payment if I didn't have a baby and credit card debt now. But I knew it was a stretch and used common sense and responsibility to wait until I was in a financial position to do so.

Instead I get to watch people who make a lot less than me get prime loans on homes that were formally 300k given away for about 150k and I can't buy a home now if I wanted to because so many people started to default that the banks went into hardcore lending mode, leaving out anyone without a 20% down and tier one credit.

So the real victim is people with 401k plans and people like me trying to do things right. So it's more like someone being raped for the person next to them wearing a short skirt.

[DroppinScience]

Usually I would agree with the Queen and the Scientifical one on most issues, but you guys got it wrong this time.

This isn't blaming the victim, because the "victim" still has a house and is now going to get a government subsidised loan at an incrediblly low rate, well below market rates as well as being given a break on fees and such. Also having looked into this recently they get to finance the home they bought a year or more ago at CURRENT MARKET VALUE.

Is it possible we're discussing two different things? Because I saw nothing you're describing that matches what I saw the folks in Slavic Village are going through in the Bill Moyers piece. If you watched the Moyers video, please comment on that directly. Let's make sure we're on the same page.

And don't forget the BBC report (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnnOOo6tRs8) of actual "Hoover-villes" in the L.A. area springing up due to the mortgage crisis.

And it's the banks like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that are getting the bailouts from the government.

[RobMoney$]

Psyzmac's on the money here and I agree with everything he's said.

I bought my home for $50K over 15 years ago. I had it appraised for a home equity loan I was interested in back in 2004. They valued my home at $175k. I laughed at them. There's no way my home was really worth that much, they just wanted me to borrow $150k so they could lock me into that loan. I didn't go for it because I knew it was short money (the appraisal was out of wack).

My sister refinanced her home probably a half a dozen times. She now owes a $1200 a month note along with her original $600 a month Mortgage note, all on a home that's worth about $100k in a neighborhood that's getting worse every year. She'll never get what she owes on the place if she sells it. She took the short money and took extravagant vacations and bought a bunch of shit she didn't need.

Now the Government will make some more entitlement programs to bail out everyone who took the short money. FUCKING LOVELY.

[King PSYZ]

You keep pointing back to this pbs special when my quote was on the genral crisis since you did title the thread mortgage crisis, not It sucks to be you Slavic Village.

Yes I understand people who were renting got screwed, I was one of those people here in Vegas...

But you said I was blaming the victim, akin to blaming rape victims for a short skirt which is asinine at best. Moreso when there's well more than one victim and many so called victims as I already mentioned are far from victims.

We've looked into it and part of the fannie mae/freddie mac package is allowing people to refi their loans to retain their home and they're getting to do so at CURRENT MARKET VALUES.

This may end up helping my Mother in law from a local predetory lender. But she also bought a house she could afford. This is not the case for more than not of those affected by this recent crisis.

[abbott]

the only bull shit here is that we are bailing these fuckers out.

I hope you bail me out when I need it.

Wells Fargo automated apprasil system told me my home was worth $800K, Id be lucky to get $650 for it. If I was on meth or full of wishfull thinking, I would of taken the cash. Unfortunetly, I could not escape reality and I am only rich with love and family.

My real point here is we dont have a mortgage crisis, we have a national crisis, my mom lost $150K in her 401K this year, and she lives on a fixed income, where is her help?

My poor neighbor took out $130K from his equity and bought a new mobil home. Now he is loosing his home.

sorry about the poor spelling, I would be happy if all this bail out mony went to teachers and schools.

[yeahwho]

My real point here is we dont have a mortgage crisis, we have a national crisis, my mom lost $150K in her 401K this year, and she lives on a fixed income, where is her help?


Your so correct on so many levels with your post, especially this statement. How can one administration completely fail the American people on this large of scale?

when this boob took the Oath of Office the voters never realized his best ability to uphold the oath was tarnished by profiteers and the thinking skills of a frat drunk.

We're in deep, very deep, it will take decades to dig out.

[King PSYZ]

funny how this went from a hot topic to dropping off so quickly...

[yeahwho]

funny how this went from a hot topic to dropping off so quickly...

I've had 3 different mortgages in the past 10 years, a downtown Condo in Seattle that was really awesome, then a dumpy little house just North of town and this current house I'm in at a community about 20 minutes north of Seattle.

I always like talking about this stuff, I remember just a few short years ago being belittled by sam i am for saying the housing market in the USA is a house of cards. Triple tiered debt is exactly what it sounds like, triple trouble is what it is creating. Now that we've done so much to keep the economy going, we've personally bankrupted ourselves. It's scary stuff and I'm telling you straight up, this is what the current administration encouraged it's citizens to do.

We can blame each individual for making bad choices, yet the Nations banks and creditors turned a blind eye while willingly knowing the sale would devastate the client. It's a two way street, the contract is two entities. Real Estate sales is a high pressure, high stakes game, the consumer is always the last to know.

[NoFenders]

We can blame each individual for making bad choices, yet the Nations banks and creditors turned a blind eye while willingly knowing the sale would devastate the client. It's a two way street, the contract is two entities. Real Estate sales is a high pressure, high stakes game, the consumer is always the last to know.

It doesn't have to be a high pressure high stakes game. It can actually be quite enjoyable once you've done the homework to figure out where you want to be in the next 10 years. My guess is, most of these loans were made to people that couldn't imagine where'd they'd be next week.

:cool:

[DroppinScience]

Here's another PBS/Bill Moyers report that is on the new corporate practices of exploiting the poor.

Some of this involves the mortgage crisis, but it spans much more than just that.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/08082008/watch2.html

There's always been money to be made from people who have no money. That's because low income families turn to fast, easy, and pre-approved credit to make ends meet. But once they've signed on the dotted line, they often find their troubles have just begun. According to the Federal Reserve, the amount of money owed by households earning $30,000 or less between 1989 and 2004, soared to $691 billion — that's an increase of nearly 250%.

These households are what one entrepreneur describes as "low-hanging fruit" — just waiting to be plucked....

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/08082008/watch3.html

Economists of every stripe agree that the credit crisis is out of control. For example, Charles Calomiras of the conservative American Enterprise Institute, said this week, "We do need some regulation, smarter regulation, to prevent the abuse of the safety net." And the economist Dean Baker told the same reporter, "Wall Street just ran wild. It was some mix of irresponsibility and downright greed." ...

[NoFenders]

Still goes to show that nobody thinks for themselves anymore.

Let's tell the loan shark that he's being unfair now too. Let's tell him that these people never knew he'd charge such drastic interest for their small loan. They were all expalind the situation, and liked the idea of having 10K in their pocket til next week, but didn't think he'd come and break a knee when he didn't get what they signed on for. It's simply the buyers fault. Ever heard the expression, buyer beware??



:cool:

[DroppinScience]

Still goes to show that nobody thinks for themselves anymore.

BILL MOYERS: Both of you keep your eyes on issues of fairness in America. And we just saw a report on how working people with low incomes are bamboozled by rapacious lenders who make money out of other people's poverty. So I want to ask you, Dean Baker, how is it we've come to accept a predatory economy as the American way of life?

DEAN BAKER, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington, D.C.:Well, basically we adopted this policy of anything goes, so that if Wall Street business could dole it and they could make money on it, we let them get away with it.

You know, the fact that sub-prime mortgages had more than doubled as a share of the economy, that should have been, you know, just an alarm bell sounding off to everyone. And this was, you know, I'm an economist. I see this data. But, you know, this widely known. But yet, people are just looking the other way. And we knew people were being taken advantage of. We knew it was going to end very badly.

I have a strong feeling that Baker knows a lot more about this than you, so your idiocy will always be countered.

[NoFenders]

I guess you can no longer think for yourself either. Eh??

:cool:

[RobMoney$]

I guess you can no longer think for yourself either. Eh??

:cool:

Bill Moyers & Howard Zinn do Bratt's thinking for him.

[saz]

well, i think that dean baker, the co-director of the centre for economic policy and research, who previously worked as a senior economist at the economic policy institute and as an assistant professor at bucknell university, who has also written many books and articles on economics, would tend to be much more knowledgable on the subject matter than anyone of us. that's why bill moyers, who is considered one of the country's top journalists, sought out his expertise.

so, i can see where droppin' is coming from with this. you know, seeking out expert analysis.

[NoFenders]

Nobody says he isn't a geat guy when it comes to things like this. I don't thin anyone was discrediting either Moyers or Baker. It's just that while people can trace this all back to one or two things, there's always one variable that stays the same. The clueless, take what I can get, buyer.

If you read what Droppin posted, he actually confirms my thoughts.

sub-prime mortgages had more than doubled as a share of the economy, that should have been, you know, just an alarm bell sounding off to everyone. And this was, you know, I'm an economist. I see this data. But, you know, this widely known. But yet, people are just looking the other way.

Maybe they look the other way because it's convenient. Much easier to do so than to actually look at what your investing in. Then again, most of these loans were set up so the person didn't even pay on the principal. Just interest. What does that tell you about the decision process with these buyers. There is none. "I want it, you can get it for me, make it happen. I don't care how, I just want to be in that house. Here's what I can pay, can you make that work?" That's almost exactly what each person has said with these loans. The others were mostly house flippers that let it drop anyway. Not much loss for them. They still have a house. Yeah, there's a lot of sad stories, but hopefully this will make people more aware of what they sign. Hopefully it will make people try and be a little more accountable for their actions. Were there some bankers that set people up? Maybe a few, but not the entire system. The majority of fault is laid on the individual that signs upon the line which is dotted.Or we can just play the blame game til the end of the world, cause how could it possibly be my fault?




:cool:

[milleson]

Ugh.

Predatory lending has been around forever. It sucks, but it takes many people completely unaware. NoFenders, I'm glad you are SO smart that you can see right through their evil practices. I'm sure they won't suck you in. However, not everyone is as smart and well educated as you.

Unfortunately not everyone reads the fine print. That's why they call it the fine print. Hey you know what, sometimes lenders might even intentionally mislead you. They might not even discuss interest rates at all, and instead constantly focus on small monthly payment amounts.

I'll continue to pay my own mortgage, but would anyone like to buy groceries for me?

[yeahwho]

I guess you can no longer think for yourself either. Eh??

:cool:

Bill Moyers & Howard Zinn do Bratt's thinking for him.
What DS is dooing is using facts, links and research to formulate his thread. If your going to belittle him at least have the common courtesy to use an opposing supportive link or fact that neutralizes your argument.

Calling names and saying his research influences his thinking makes no sense.

[DroppinScience]

sub-prime mortgages had more than doubled as a share of the economy, that should have been, you know, just an alarm bell sounding off to everyone. And this was, you know, I'm an economist. I see this data. But, you know, this widely known. But yet, people are just looking the other way.

Maybe they look the other way because it's convenient. Much easier to do so than to actually look at what your investing in.

You obviously didn't read it through because you misunderstand who the "people" are in Baker's quote. When Baker said "people" he was talking about federal regulators such as Alan Greenspan who knew about predatory lending but he chose to look the other way until it's all spiraled out of control like we have right now.

[yeahwho]

You obviously didn't read it through because you misunderstand who the "people" are in Baker's quote. When Baker said "people" he was talking about federal regulators such as Alan Greenspan who knew about predatory lending but he chose to look the other way until it's all spiraled out of control like we have right now.

It doesn't matter. It's like talking to a rock. When I read this and think about the response your getting it's like watching a tennis match and one side keeps mistaking it for hackey sack. Two complete different topics going in two different directions.

It's always your own fault that banks, lending institutions and creditors loan money to people who cannot afford to pay the money back. That is why it's OK we're bailing out these people, institutions and government agencies.

Because of my feeling of personal responsibility of turning a blind eye to complete horseshit economic sense. Sort of like the horseshit responses this topic keeps getting.

[DroppinScience]

It doesn't matter. It's like talking to a rock. When I read this and think about the response your getting it's like watching a tennis match and one side keeps mistaking it for hackey sack. Two complete different topics going in two different directions.

It's always your own fault that banks, lending institutions and creditors loan money to people who cannot afford to pay the money back. That is why it's OK we're bailing out these people, institutions and government agencies.

Because of my feeling of personal responsibility of turning a blind eye to complete horseshit economic sense. Sort of like the horseshit responses this topic keeps getting.

Oh believe me, I'm not doing this because I think I'll get through to NoFenders. Sadly, that boy is beyond help.

I do this for those observing on the sidelines (whether they post here all the time or are not even a registered member of this board) who wish to make heads or tails of what I'm discussing. If NoFenders is full of crap and spreading lies, deceits, half-truths, and exaggerations, it is up to us to see that we respond with the truth. If I really want to know about the mortgage crisis or the war in Iraq, I'd want someone to tell me, for the record, what is going on and not what some fry cook thinks is going on based on some perverted viewpoint of what the world is like.

[NoFenders]

Ugh.

Predatory lending has been around forever. It sucks, but it takes many people completely unaware. NoFenders, I'm glad you are SO smart that you can see right through their evil practices. I'm sure they won't suck you in. However, not everyone is as smart and well educated as you.



Well, it's not me that's all that informed. I just choose to keep informed people by my side when making a 400K decision. All and all, you are the only person at fault when things go bad. Most people just can't accept that.


:cool:

[NoFenders]

What DS is dooing is using facts, links and research to formulate his thread. If your going to belittle him at least have the common courtesy to use an opposing supportive link or fact that neutralizes your argument.

Calling names and saying his research influences his thinking makes no sense.


That's your guys game. Not mine. I have a perspective that's derived from life experience. Not a book or web page. You guys are the ones who need links to live, not me. Ignore me if you don't like it. I don't spend day in day out looking for links to justify my belief like you guys do. Just not my deal. Perspective is ones reality. Like it or not, that's a fact.

:cool:

[NoFenders]

You obviously didn't read it through because you misunderstand who the "people" are in Baker's quote. When Baker said "people" he was talking about federal regulators such as Alan Greenspan who knew about predatory lending but he chose to look the other way until it's all spiraled out of control like we have right now.

I'm quite sure all these guys would agree that the individual made a bad choice. I bet even the individual would agree. Were they promissed that things wouldn't change?? No, they weren't.


:cool:

[NoFenders]

It doesn't matter. It's like talking to a rock. When I read this and think about the response your getting it's like watching a tennis match and one side keeps mistaking it for hackey sack. Two complete different topics going in two different directions.

It's always your own fault that banks, lending institutions and creditors loan money to people who cannot afford to pay the money back. That is why it's OK we're bailing out these people, institutions and government agencies.

Because of my feeling of personal responsibility of turning a blind eye to complete horseshit economic sense. Sort of like the horseshit responses this topic keeps getting.

You go girl!!

:cool:

[DroppinScience]

I'm quite sure all these guys would agree that the individual made a bad choice. I bet even the individual would agree. Were they promissed that things wouldn't change?? No, they weren't.


:cool:

It could happen to anyone, so stop pretending the same wouldn't happen to you.

Even if the individual (and what we're discussing here, we have a LOT of individuals, numbering in the thousands and keeps growing) makes a bad decision, there are larger issues at stake. Loan sharks (in this case the credit/mortgage companies) are allowed free reign by federal regulators to exploit the poor, make money off of them, and keep them poor. This does not bother you in the slightest? You only want to blame the individual who got suckered in. If it was just one or two people, then I'd say it's their own poor judgment. This is now on a MASS scale. I'm sorry, not everyone can be this stupid. There have to be larger causes for the problem. But go on, give a welcome mat to people who have no interest in protecting you and will fleece you for everything you got before you notice what just happened.

What we're dealing with is a Robin Hood-like situation. Where Robin Hood steals from the rich to give to the poor, the Sheriff of Nottingham is stealing from the poor to give to the rich. It's so nice to know that in your reading of this story, the Sheriff is the hero and the poor people should know better than to stay poor. :rolleyes:

[NoFenders]

It could happen to anyone, so stop pretending the same wouldn't happen to you.



I don't pretend bud. I was offered the same shitty deals while I've been buying homes. I knew better. Too bad they didn't. Not my problem, so I don't feel obligated to bail them out. Just my opinion. Try not to get so upset about it. Hopefully this is a wake up call for everyone. If it's not, then your destined to be in the same boat.

:cool:

[NoFenders]

Loan sharks (in this case the credit/mortgage companies) are allowed free reign by federal regulators to exploit the poor, make money off of them, and keep them poor. This does not bother you in the slightest? You only want to blame the individual who got suckered in. If it was just one or two people, then I'd say it's their own poor judgment. This is now on a MASS scale. I'm sorry, not everyone can be this stupid.

You know how many people watched 90210?? You know how many people watch Entertainment Tonight to get their news?? Yeah, everyone can be that stupid.



:cool:

[DroppinScience]

Yeah, everyone can be that stupid.



:cool:

Says the fry cook.

:cool:

[DroppinScience]

Just my opinion. Try not to get so upset about it. Hopefully this is a wake up call for everyone.

Well, your position essentially amounts to "Predatory lending done by shady companies is A-OK and if you're dumb enough to get conned, you deserve it." I'm sorry but I'm not a proponent of the "just world theory" ("You get what you deserve; you deserve what you get") one bit, so I do find your cold-hearted views to be alarming to say the least.

One thing we can agree on: yes, this is a wake up call for everyone. However, I don't simply see it as only for the individual to not get bamboozled but for the companies that do this to know that their immoral, greedy days are numbered.

Let me also address another nugget of stupidity:

That's your guys game. Not mine. I have a perspective that's derived from life experience. Not a book or web page. You guys are the ones who need links to live, not me. Ignore me if you don't like it. I don't spend day in day out looking for links to justify my belief like you guys do. Just not my deal. Perspective is ones reality. Like it or not, that's a fact.

"Life experience"? Just what exactly does that mean and why is that "better" than a book or website? I don't know what your life is like, but a person's perspective based on life experience can be severely limited (i.e. one's geography, socio-economic background, etc.). Unless you travel the world and talk to everyone, your viewpoints need something more. This is where research comes in: that means reading (either books, web links, newspapers, studies, etc.). I know you find such an activity revolting, but you should give it a try some time. You may actually gain new insights instead of putting your head in the sand and pretending that your own perspective is the one and only way to go. This may shock you, but I even seek out viewpoints that are different from my own since in order to know a subject well, you need to get the big picture. Try it some time.

[QueenAdrock]

I have a perspective that's derived from life experience. Not a book or web page.

Just curious. Are you a Christian? And if so, do you believe in the Bible?

[yeahwho]

I don't pretend bud. I was offered the same shitty deals while I've been buying homes. I knew better. Too bad they didn't. Not my problem, so I don't feel obligated to bail them out. Just my opinion. Try not to get so upset about it. Hopefully this is a wake up call for everyone. If it's not, then your destined to be in the same boat.

:cool:

All of the rest of us will try and wake up. We're stupid asses. This is why your wisdom and knowledge seems so wasted sharing it here with all of us lesser mere doofus's who link facts and only wish we could have maybe... just perhaps, parents who were smart like you are.

Thanks for sharing your life experiences with us. Sounds like you've been around the block and know a thing or two. I'm going to go brag you up right now to some other dumbshit like me.

I'm so sick of actual facts and statistics, your a real breath of fresh air.

[yeahwho]

Well, your position essentially amounts to "Predatory lending done by shady companies is A-OK and if you're dumb enough to get conned, you deserve it." I'm sorry but I'm not a proponent of the "just world theory" ("You get what you deserve; you deserve what you get") one bit, so I do find your cold-hearted views to be alarming to say the least.

One thing we can agree on: yes, this is a wake up call for everyone. However, I don't simply see it as only for the individual to not get bamboozled but for the companies that do this to know that their immoral, greedy days are numbered.

Let me also address another nugget of stupidity:



"Life experience"? Just what exactly does that mean and why is that "better" than a book or website? I don't know what your life is like, but a person's perspective based on life experience can be severely limited (i.e. one's geography, socio-economic background, etc.). Unless you travel the world and talk to everyone, your viewpoints need something more. This is where research comes in: that means reading (either books, web links, newspapers, studies, etc.). I know you find such an activity revolting, but you should give it a try some time. You may actually gain new insights instead of putting your head in the sand and pretending that your own perspective is the one and only way to go. This may shock you, but I even seek out viewpoints that are different from my own since in order to know a subject well, you need to get the big picture. Try it some time.

You did an excellent job here BTW. Your facts, your research and your patience is amazing. I wish my own ability to remain cool was as good as yours. The ironic and moronic thing is NoFenders is posting on a linkable website to talk down to us about using linkable websites. duuuuuuuuuuuuuuur

We're all paying no matter how smart you may think you are. We're all paying because predatory lending practices went unchecked. It is not a one way street. Joe six pack has been fleeced. This is not an isolated incident. It is a National Crisis.

Pick your Link (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mortgage+crisis&btnG=Google+Search), this not the only internet site posting on this topic.

[NoFenders]

Well, your position essentially amounts to "Predatory lending done by shady companies is A-OK and if you're dumb enough to get conned, you deserve it." I'm sorry but I'm not a proponent of the "just world theory" ("You get what you deserve; you deserve what you get") one bit, so I do find your cold-hearted views to be alarming to say the least.

That's why you're a democrat. I do believe that people can change, but I also see a lot of other people telling them they don't need to. The "We'll take care of this for ya" helps nobody but the fool, and they'll make the same mistake twice. History proves it.You always deserve what you get, and you get what you can handle.


One thing we can agree on: yes, this is a wake up call for everyone. However, I don't simply see it as only for the individual to not get bamboozled but for the companies that do this to know that their immoral, greedy days are numbered.

Sure why not. I have nothing against the banks getting a smack. I just don't think the individual should be bailed out for a mistkae they made. It's called being an adult. Accept your responsibility. Lay in the bed you made.


Let me also address another nugget of stupidity:

Stupidity?? Great. Real class there. :rolleyes:


"Life experience"? Just what exactly does that mean and why is that "better" than a book or website? I don't know what your life is like, but a person's perspective based on life experience can be severely limited (i.e. one's geography, socio-economic background, etc.). Unless you travel the world and talk to everyone, your viewpoints need something more.

Last I checked traveling the world doesn't help perspective on the mortgage crisis. I have traveled, and nobody I talked to asked what kind of loan I had. Maybe I was just in the wrong places.

This is where research comes in: that means reading (either books, web links, newspapers, studies, etc.). I know you find such an activity revolting, but you should give it a try some time. You may actually gain new insights instead of putting your head in the sand and pretending that your own perspective is the one and only way to go.

So you believe everything you read then?? Great, another sheep in the system. Don't worry, you'll do just fine out there one day. Just keep on keepin on.Just some info for ya bud, researching on why somebody would make a boneheaded move like buying a house, getting a mortgage that doesn't pay on principal only the interest doesn't take research. It takes common sense.

This may shock you, but I even seek out viewpoints that are different from my own since in order to know a subject well, you need to get the big picture.

You may seek them out, but you do so just to tear them down with your beliefs. You're no different than me, so don't pretend you are. Your knowledge, is matched with mine. In certain enviorments one will do better than the other. In most cases of urban life, I have a feeling you'd be taken for every penny, and looking for somebody to tell you why.That's a nugget of stupidity for ya.

:cool:

[NoFenders]

Just curious. Are you a Christian? And if so, do you believe in the Bible?


Hey, I'm not looking for a tag team match from the Democratic Duo here. Religion has nothing to do with this,so keep it that way.

:cool:

[NoFenders]

I'm so sick of actual facts and statistics, your a real breath of fresh air.

Thanks buddy! (y)


:cool:

[QueenAdrock]

I know it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but you said that your perspectives are not based on anything you read in books. So therefore, one can only assume that you are not a Christian and do not believe in the Bible, since upstanding Christians follow the teachings of what is in the "Good Book".

I'm sure Jesus would be upset with hearing that you do not believe in the Bible's teachings and your perspectives in life are not based around that book. :(

[NoFenders]

Still has nothing to do with this or anything else "research" related.

Nice try though, and btw, Jesus loves me just the same. :D


I never took you to be a low class lwo baller.I guess we're all surprised once in a while. Trying to dig on ones religion to prove a point on message board is far from Christian like. Maybe you and your bf have more research to do.


:cool:

[QueenAdrock]

So everything in this thread has to be related to the first point? Would you like me to make a new thread so you can respond to it? I can, if you like. If it's not "appropriate" for here, I can put it elsewhere if it means that much to you.

And no, I'm not Christian-like, because I'm not a Christian. However, it is ironic (and hypocritical) to say that other people using books for their beliefs is a bunch of crap, and yet you believe the Bible and do the exact same thing. Tell me, how is it any different to believe something you read in the news and use that to form your ideas, and to believe something you read in the Bible and use that to form your ideas? Obviously, I believe one is more factual than the other, but it's silly to say one is gospel truth and the other's a bunch of crap, when you're just using "faith" that your Bible is right, and the others are using "faith" that the reporters who went out and ran the studies, polls, and data collection have correctly researched their subject at hand.

I'm not digging on your religion, I'm calling you out on your hypocrisy.

[NoFenders]

So everything in this thread has to be related to the first point? Would you like me to make a new thread so you can respond to it? I can, if you like. If it's not "appropriate" for here, I can put it elsewhere if it means that much to you.

That's ok ignorant one.



And no, I'm not Christian-like, because I'm not a Christian. However, it is ironic (and hypocritical) to say that other people using books for their beliefs is a bunch of crap,

Never said that, and besides, being a Christian doesn't mean taking every word from the bible as gospel and practicing it every day.I don't believe that other forms of religion are bad, and I don't belive followers of other religions are sinners. So your point is really wasted on your own self-righteous ego trip. Again, nice try.

This does make me wonder if every book you read you believe though.I mean, if not, then who's the hypocrite??


:cool:



:cool:

[QueenAdrock]

I believe books if they're from a credible source. Peer-reviewed books are even better. So, alas, I do not believe in the Bible. There are a lot of historical and logical flaws in it, so my reasoning tells me that a lot of the stories are merely for entertainment value and not to be taken as truth. Either way, if having some sort of thought process and critically analyzing materials and using it for arguing points is seen as "ignorant," or "hypocritical," I'll gladly wear that badge. I pride myself on using logic and interpreting what I read, rather than you, who apparently believes the Bible, yet have said that you rely on life experiences rather than what you read in a book. I bet you've never seen a man turn water into wine, but would you believe it if you were told so in your Book? Hmm. Tough to say, really.

And it's obvious that being a Christian doesn't mean taking every word from the Bible as gospel truth. I'm willing to bet that you don't agree with these passages:

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [Matthew 5:9]

I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despite-fully use you, and persecute you; [Matthew 5:44]

Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions. [Luke 12.15.]

If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. [Matthew 19:21]


Just a few. You know, the Bible has some really good, liberal teachings. I wonder why some "Christians" don't bother to follow it as closely as they should?

[Bob]

being a Christian doesn't mean taking every word from the bible as gospel and practicing it every day

depends on what kind of christian

[NoFenders]

I believe books if they're from a credible source.

Is that just in your own opinion?

I mean, that's great you have the power to see who is telling it like it is and who isn't. Being a librarian they must insert some special chip that lets you see truth and where it lays. Pulling out religion on a issue about mortgages is pretty pathetic. Your point isn't very good since the Bible is a book that's been around for a very long time and myself as a Christian are never perfect and are never truely without sin. It has nothing to do with what I agree with or practice. It has nothing to do with books in general. It's ones practice of faith. Jesus will accept me for who I am, not who I pretended to be.This deal of yours is personal. It's nothing more than you trying to get sense of pulling one over on me. Hate to tell ya toots, but I got thicker skin than that. Nice try though. Keep readin that bible though, at least some good came out of your time spent trying to discredit me.
;)


:cool:

[NoFenders]

depends on what kind of christian

Yes it does.




:cool:

[baltogrl71]

I understand everyones frustration, but seriously where is the responsibility of the consumer?????? It has all been blamed on lenders and I can tell you this the majority of this problem is more our materialistic society and the average consumer in america who is never satisfied with what the can afford.I own a mortgage company and can honestly tell you that over 90% of my clients don't listen to a word I say they just want what they want and in two years come back with tripple the debt they had before they bought their house. You know, they needed a gas hog to shlep all the shit they bought for their new house. What about all the useless crap people buy for their kids, my cousins kid took his freakin psp or whatever its called to the park, WTF???? NOONE is fucking accountable anymore!!! At least when I fuck up I can say I was a dumb ass! Sure there are A LOT of slimy assholes in my biz, but there are also A LOT MORE people who are irresponsible and consumed with the latest and greatest and living on plastic, and yet somehow its all the lenders fault! FUCKING AMAZING!!!

[DroppinScience]

I understand everyones frustration, but seriously where is the responsibility of the consumer?????? It has all been blamed on lenders and I can tell you this the majority of this problem is more our materialistic society and the average consumer in america who is never satisfied with what the can afford.I own a mortgage company and can honestly tell you that over 90% of my clients don't listen to a word I say they just want what they want and in two years come back with tripple the debt they had before they bought their house. You know, they needed a gas hog to shlep all the shit they bought for their new house. What about all the useless crap people buy for their kids, my cousins kid took his freakin psp or whatever its called to the park, WTF???? NOONE is fucking accountable anymore!!! At least when I fuck up I can say I was a dumb ass! Sure there are A LOT of slimy assholes in my biz, but there are also A LOT MORE people who are irresponsible and consumed with the latest and greatest and living on plastic, and yet somehow its all the lenders fault! FUCKING AMAZING!!!

It's clear we're looking at this from two completely different points of view. While you think that if the consumer's exercised better judgment, there would be no crisis. I, on the other hand think that if the lenders themselves exercised better ethics (and MORE IMPORTANTLY, which I'm trying to get across here if there was some actual federal regulation being placed on said lenders) and not take money from the people who don't have any, then there would be no crisis. Where you guys take a bottom-down approach (i.e. the consumers), I'm taking a top-down approach (i.e. said companies and the federal govt. regulating them). I think the latter is more important to look at if you want to solve this problem and prevent it from happening in the future. You think the former is better. Both perspectives are valid, but I'm more inclined to go after the powerful than I would the powerless. That simple.

And I'm not talking about PSPs or wild amounts of excessive consumerism. You're pulling this shit out of nowhere. The people I'm talking about can't afford anything of this sort. Allow me to directly cite another example from the Bill Moyers videos, since none of you are interested in clicking on hyperlinks.

Loan sharks have been around to prey on the poor for centuries, but now the sharks are trying to spiff up their image, relocating from back alleyways to friendly-looking storefronts.

They hide their sharp teeth behind promises of ready cash to people who need it now. BUSINESSWEEK magazine dubbed this industry "the poverty business."

Its reporters looked at companies ranging from subprime credit card dealers and rent-to-own electronics stores to some of the biggest financial institutions in America, all of them turning the needs and desires of the working poor into bottom-line, bottom-feeding profits. Here's a report from our colleagues at "Expose."

Sylvia Chase narrates.

SILVIA CHASE:Central Avenue in Albuquerque, New Mexico — part of fabled Route 66.

But the old romance of the open road now competes with the confines of modern reality: some call this area the "war zone."

ROXANNE TSOSIE:On Central right here there's like a bunch of prostitution; girls walking up and down the street. And then sometimes you'll find needles on the sidewalk.

SILVIA CHASE:Three years ago, Roxanne Tsosie decided it was time to escape the war zone. 28 years old, a single mother with four children she had just gotten a $15,000 a year job. There was a catch though: it required her to have a car.

ROXANNE TSOSIE:I'm a caregiver at a home with six guys that had HIV. And that was the main thing — I needed the vehicle to take my clients to their appointment, to get groceries, to pick up their prescription, get, you know whatever they need.

SILVIA CHASE:She had no credit and little cash. But just a block away from her apartment was an attractive building with a lot full of cars and something else: a bright orange and blue sign saying easy credit.

ROXANNE TSOSIE:So I went over there and when they told me yeah you can leave with a vehicle, I was like, cool. Guess I'll stay here and get one then I was really happy — I cried. I was like, 'Oh my gosh, I got me a vehicle.'

SILVIA CHASE:Consumers like Roxanne Tsotsie have little money individually. But together they number in the tens of millions, and represent a massive pool of wealth. And there's what amounts to an entire industry devoted to seeking riches in their pockets one customer at a time. That day at the Albuquerque used car lot, Roxanne Tsosie got herself a 1999 Saturn. It had 103,000 miles on it. The purchase price: $7,922. She bought it entirely on credit. Her payments: $150 every two weeks. Her interest rate: 24.9 per cent. Within months, she realized that what she thought was her ticket out, was actually weighing her down. Her family couldn't live on what was left over after she made her car payments. She returned the Saturn to the people who sold it her.

ROXANNE TSOSIE:I was sad when I had to give it back. That was my first vehicle. I was proud, you know, I did this on my own but after all this happened it just crushed me. And I'm like oh my gosh, I'm back to square one again.

SILVIA CHASE:For Roxanne Tsosie that would have been the end of the story — if, across the country in Atlanta, a colorful ad hadn't caught the eye of a commuter on his way to work.

BRIAN GROW:You can't help but notice it, it's bright it's orange and blue. And there's a bright smiling face of a pretty young girl. And the ad says get credit, drive today. But there's an asterisks, and it says subject to approval. It talks about how $399 delivers, i.e. $399 down, delivers the car. But there's two asterisks next to that one.

The ad says, by purchasing a car you can rebuild your credit. But there's three asterisks after that one, sitting on the train every day, you know, over time I read all the fine print and it just stuck with me. Financing for all? No credit, bad credit? No problem. What does that mean?

SILVIA CHASE:Brian Grow is a reporter in Atlanta for BUSINESSWEEKmagazine. It was late 2006 when that advertisement with a slew of asterisks caught his attention. Soon after, a think tank report arrived on his desk. As he read it, Brian grow began to connect some dots.

BRIAN GROW:Matt Fellowes, at Brookings Institution, published a report called "From Poverty, Opportunity" how more companies were looking at low income Americans as a very attractive business opportunity.

Sort of defies conventional wisdom that the low income consumer is a segment of the market, where most companies wouldn't want to play. And it was pretty powerful and fascinating.

MATT FELLOWES:I've estimated in my research that among the bottom 25 percent of households, they're collectively bringing in about 650 billion dollars every year.

So you can imagine why an amount of money that large is attractive to a great variety of businesses, from large financial services companies to new, uh, to entrepreneurs looking for innovations to serve this market.

SILVIA CHASE:That the poor can be lucrative to big business was intriguing enough to the reporter. But Matt Fellowes' evidence for that case was even more so. The Fellowes report noted that wages have been stagnant for years; to compensate the working poor are buying items small and large by taking out loans from companies all too happy to lend them the money at a very high rate. ...

And it goes on. The example I cited is someone who is poor and working hard to get out of her bad situation. But what do the loan sharks do? Exploit her situation, take her money and leave her in the same place as when she started. Honestly, I think the individual is trying to better herself (I don't see any demands for iPods, PSPs or whatever), but the companies are tricking her into helping her and now she gets burned.

But go on, demonize her all you want and tell her she wants something for nothing, is materialistic, etc.

[QueenAdrock]

It's a credible source if it passes the CRAAP test.
Try it out sometime, you'll really learn a lot:
http://www.csuchico.edu/lins/handouts/evalsites.html

And I call it like I see it. If I see you saying that you don't base your beliefs around a book, I'm going to see if it applies to all aspects of your life or if you're just selective in your thinking. It just so happens that you said that in a thread on mortgages. It doesn't mean that my point isn't relevant; though I can see why you would claim so. Sometimes it's easier to say "I don't want to answer that here, it has nothing to do with what we're talking about" than give the true answer. Politicians do it all the time, so I guess I can't really blame you for wanting to dodge the question either.

You may not be without sin, but you sure can try to strive for perfection in God's eyes! Try starting with giving to the poor and being against the war. Helping others and being against people suffering is one of Jesus's "bleeding heart" messages, I'm sure you'd get on his good side by striving to be like him.

[DroppinScience]

It's a credible source if it passes the CRAAP test.
Try it out sometime, you'll really learn a lot:
http://www.csuchico.edu/lins/handouts/evalsites.html


That website forgot to mention "life experience."

:cool:

[RobMoney$]

That website forgot to mention "life experience."

:cool:


Hey Brett, are you still living at home with your folks?

[Bob]

Hey Brett, are you still living at home with your folks?

why do you do this?

[RobMoney$]

Objection.

DS was offering an opinion on Mortgages and Predatory Lending.
Isn't it a relevant question to ask what his living situation i... i.e. his personal experience obtaining a mortgage?

Wouldn't it be irresponsible of him if he's sitting home in Ma's basement debating with people who actually have a mortgage or have had several mortgages in their life?

[QueenAdrock]

Actually, he's not. Plus, he paid for all of his college education himself and works full-time. Any other questions?

[RobMoney$]

He raised the issue of Life Experience.

[QueenAdrock]

Yeah, he was talking about how it's crap to base all of your ideas and perceptions solely around 'life experiences' rather than around books, reports, statistics. It's nice to say "Hey, this is what I've experienced," but to brush off other people's comments because it doesn't fit with your narrow world view, and refusing to believe studies and statistics and whatever else that come out just because it doesn't back what you have experienced in your life, is dumb.

[Bob]

Objection.

DS was offering an opinion on Mortgages and Predatory Lending.
Isn't it a relevant question to ask what his living situation i... i.e. his personal experience obtaining a mortgage?

Wouldn't it be irresponsible of him if he's sitting home in Ma's basement debating with people who actually have a mortgage or have had several mortgages in their life?

alright alright i thought you were doing something else my bad. i'll try again next time then

[RobMoney$]

Actually, he's not. Plus, he paid for all of his college education himself and works full-time. Any other questions?

God Bless his pretty little head.
Can you pinch his cheeks for me the next time you see him?

[QueenAdrock]

Sure thing, grandpa.

[saz]

McCain's Mansions: The Houses That Greed Built

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek3jAkx9m10&eurl=http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/

Most working families today do not have homes that have anywhere near 10 rooms. John McCain has 10 homes. Many working people in America have to work two and three jobs to provide for their families and pay their car loans. John McCain hops on a private jet. Is it any wonder why McCain champions a George Bush agenda of cutting taxes for corporations and the wealthy, helping oil companies turn record profits, and leaving working families to fend for themselves?

John McCain is soaring to new heights of hypocrisy on his wife's personal jet. He flies around the country bent on duping the public into believing he's "one of them," a regular guy who can empathize with Americans facing an overwhelming economic crush. What's more, he disparages those who oppose his ridiculous policy proposals (http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/05/15/mccain-deficit/) as "elitist." But who's the real elitist?

The REAL McCain is a multimillionaire who owns ten luxurious homes. The REAL McCain backs President Bush's tax cuts for big corporations (http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2008/tax_agenda.html). The REAL McCain empathizes only with the interests of our nation's wealthy minority, not its money-strapped majority. But far too many are buying into McCain's deceit because the corporate press won't present the whole picture.

[Bob]

McCain's Mansions: The Houses That Greed Built

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek3jAkx9m10&eurl=http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/

Most working families today do not have homes that have anywhere near 10 rooms. John McCain has 10 homes. Many working people in America have to work two and three jobs to provide for their families and pay their car loans. John McCain hops on a private jet. Is it any wonder why McCain champions a George Bush agenda of cutting taxes for corporations and the wealthy, helping oil companies turn record profits, and leaving working families to fend for themselves?

John McCain is soaring to new heights of hypocrisy on his wife's personal jet. He flies around the country bent on duping the public into believing he's "one of them," a regular guy who can empathize with Americans facing an overwhelming economic crush. What's more, he disparages those who oppose his ridiculous policy proposals (http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/05/15/mccain-deficit/) as "elitist." But who's the real elitist?

The REAL McCain is a multimillionaire who owns ten luxurious homes. The REAL McCain backs President Bush's tax cuts for big corporations (http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2008/tax_agenda.html). The REAL McCain empathizes only with the interests of our nation's wealthy minority, not its money-strapped majority. But far too many are buying into McCain's deceit because the corporate press won't present the whole picture.

oh but sazi, why should he be penalized for his success?

[RobMoney$]

O-Force One (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/08/03/politics/fromtheroad/entry4317827.shtml)...wut?


Barack Obama’s new campaign plane is nothing short of grand. Well, for the candidate that is.

Obama’s section of the plane rivals that of any first class. Recently the front cabin of the Boeing 757 was retrofitted to install four individual chairs that resemble La-Z-Boys. They are free-standing and made of plush leather with pockets on the sides. There is also a booth which seats four for a meeting or a meal.

His chair has his name and campaign logo embroidered on the back top -- “Obama ‘08” on one line and “President” underneath.


President? A bit presumptious isn't he?

Let's not try and fool ourselves into thinking Obama is a man of the people now, shall we....as if he's traveling acroos the country in a VW bus or something.

[russhie]

\ (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/08/03/politics/fromtheroad/entry4317827.shtml)
Let's not try and fool ourselves into thinking Obama is a man of the people now, shall we....as if he's traveling acroos the country in a VW bus or something.

That'd be a bit impractical, really.

[RobMoney$]

O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One
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O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One
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O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One
O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One
O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One
O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One
O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One
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O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One
O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One O-Force One

[Laver1969]

O-Force One (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/08/03/politics/fromtheroad/entry4317827.shtml)...wut?



President? A bit presumptious isn't he?

Let's not try and fool ourselves into thinking Obama is a man of the people now, shall we....as if he's traveling acroos the country in a VW bus or something.

Here's a recent article about McCain's new airplane. The Straight Talk Express... (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/06/30/straight_talk_express_gets_an.html)

Also...to be fair. The Obama '08 President on the chair looks more like a logo. Kinda like this sign for McCain. (http://signs.cafepress.com/item/john-mccain-president-yard-sign/228879807) It can be yours for only $16.99.

[Bob]

Here's a recent article about McCain's new airplane. The Straight Talk Express... (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/06/30/straight_talk_express_gets_an.html)

Also...to be fair. The Obama '08 President on the chair looks more like a logo. Kinda like this sign for McCain. (http://signs.cafepress.com/item/john-mccain-president-yard-sign/228879807) It can be yours for only $16.99.

they had to get a new one because the old straight talk express (the bus) crashed (http://www.local10.com/news/17113919/detail.html). it crashed into the straight talk express from 2000, it was going in the opposite direction

[RobMoney$]

Here's a recent article about McCain's new airplane. The Straight Talk Express... (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/06/30/straight_talk_express_gets_an.html)

Also...to be fair. The Obama '08 President on the chair looks more like a logo. Kinda like this sign for McCain. (http://signs.cafepress.com/item/john-mccain-president-yard-sign/228879807) It can be yours for only $16.99.

They're selling Obama for President signs for the same price on that site.
Not sure I get your point?

[Laver1969]

They're selling Obama for President signs for the same price on that site.
Not sure I get your point?

No problem...you linked to Obama's plane's description and I linked to McCain's. You mentioned the Obama '08 President decription and I just showed a link of something similar for McCain. I mentioned the price because I thought that was kinda expensive for a sign. I always thought a part of all the money they're raising was used to print signage. I didn't realize you actually had to pay for those signs.

[QueenAdrock]

I mentioned the price because I thought that was kinda expensive for a sign. I always thought a part of all the money they're raising was used to print signage. I didn't realize you actually had to pay for those signs.

What you linked to was cafepress, which is a website that allows you to make any kind of design and put it on anything you want (mugs, tote bags, t-shirts, signs, even thongs). I've used it several times to print shirts and other things. So it was probably someone's design they made (not affiliated with the McCain team). All of the merchandise cafepress offers is priced the same, regardless of what kind of design goes on it.

As for signs from the actual campaign, you still have to pay for stuff like that. It's usually like $5 a sign, and it's a donation directly to the campaign. I bought a $20 Obama shirt, because all profits go to his campaign AND I get something out of it.

[Laver1969]

What you linked to was cafepress, which is a website that allows you to make any kind of design and put it on anything you want (mug, tote bag, t-shirt, even thongs). So it was probably someone's design they made, and all of the merchandise is priced the same as everything else on the site, just with different designs you make.

As for signs from the actual campaign, you still have to pay for stuff like that. It's usually like $5 a sign, and it's a donation directly to the campaign. I bought a $20 Obama shirt, because all profits go to his campaign AND I get something out of it.

Gotcha...thanks for the info Queen. I think I'll order myself an Obama thong and get myself back to Beastie General. :D

[QueenAdrock]

May I suggest this one? (http://clothing.cafepress.com/item/obama-farted-classic-thong/282295752) It's oh-so-sexy and only $9.99! (y)

[yeahwho]

Front page news LATimes today,

FBI saw threat of mortgage crisis (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-mortgagefraud25-2008aug25,0,6946937.story)

In 2007, the number of agents pursuing mortgage fraud shrank to around 100. By comparison, the FBI had about 1,000 agents deployed on banking fraud during the S&L bust of the 1980s and '90s, said Anthony Adamski, who oversaw financial crime investigations for the FBI at the time.

The FBI says it now has about 200 agents working on mortgage fraud, but critics say the agency might have averted much of the problem had it heeded its own warning.

"The FBI correctly diagnosed that mortgage fraud was epidemic, but it did not come close to meeting its announced goal," said William K. Black, who was a federal regulator during the S&L crisis and now teaches economics and law at the University of Missouri-Kansas City.

"It used everyday procedures and woefully inadequate resources to deal with an epidemic," he said. "The approach was certain to bring symbolic prosecutions and strategic defeat."

The mortgage debacle has laid bare a system marked by dubious practices at every stage of the process. Lenders often made loans to borrowers who had limited ability to repay them but little desire to pass up the dream of homeownership. Many loans lacked basic documentation, such as information about borrowers' incomes.

sort of balances' out the mentality of hey it's the buyers fault, plainly and clearly.

[NoFenders]

"Lenders often made loans to borrowers who had limited ability to repay them but little desire to pass up the dream of homeownership"

Yeah, that pretty much says it all right there. Whatever it takes, just get me in there was the logic most takers of these loans had. I don't buy a 40 inch belt for a 32 inch waist. But if I did, I'd certainly look for somebody to blame.

:cool:

[yeahwho]

"Lenders often made loans to borrowers who had limited ability to repay them but little desire to pass up the dream of homeownership"

Yeah, that pretty much says it all right there. Whatever it takes, just get me in there was the logic most takers of these loans had. I don't buy a 40 inch belt for a 32 inch waist. But if I did, I'd certainly look for somebody to blame.

:cool:

You really have no balance do you. The lending practices have been criminal. The lenders lied to both the banks and the customers. The banks are complicit because usually, in the day, they would of never made these sort of loans. But the money was too good to pass up.

This is no different than a mob bookie, other than the mark was fleeced by what appeared to be legitimate organizations and the FBI knew it. The article I link is about this. Your finding the marks fault and saying the criminals are OK.

The article is about criminal activity, this is a part of the mortgage crisis. I think your misinterpreting the big picture and laying blame solely on some folks who were preyed upon by crooks and greed.

The mortgage crisis was not solely a consumer generated event. The people asking for relief are not just consumers. That means mistakes were made on both sides. Plus the FBI is telling us certain criminal activity was underlying the whole collapse.

No Fenders you're the FOX News of the BBMB, your signature should be "I Post, You Decide" because really there is no balance.

[yeahwho]

How the Mortgage Giants Lead The Market Deeper Into Crisis (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/21/AR2008082103539.html) Washington Post

Congressman Fattah Wants Answers on FBI's Failure to Stem Mortgage Crisis (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/congressman-fattah-wants-answers-fbis/story.aspx?guid={E5F54998-74DD-40DE-BF8F-F3F1A4607790}&dist=hppr) MarketWatch

Even FOXNews has sort of... kind of... stepped up to the plate, 'Liar loans' threaten to prolong mortgage crisis (http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Aug18/0,4670,LiarLoans,00.html)