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RobMoney$
10-13-2008, 06:16 PM
From today's WSJ:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122385651698727257.html

Obama's 95% Illusion
It depends on what the meaning of 'tax cut' is.

One of Barack Obama's most potent campaign claims is that he'll cut taxes for no less than 95% of "working families." He's even promising to cut taxes enough that the government's tax share of GDP will be no more than 18.2% -- which is lower than it is today.

It's a clever pitch, because it lets him pose as a middle-class tax cutter while disguising that he's also proposing one of the largest tax increases ever on the other 5%. But how does he conjure this miracle, especially since more than a third of all Americans already pay no income taxes at all? There are several sleights of hand, but the most creative is to redefine the meaning of "tax cut."

For the Obama Democrats, a tax cut is no longer letting you keep more of what you earn. In their lexicon, a tax cut includes tens of billions of dollars in government handouts that are disguised by the phrase "tax credit." Mr. Obama is proposing to create or expand no fewer than seven such credits for individuals:

- A $500 tax credit ($1,000 a couple) to "make work pay" that phases out at income of $75,000 for individuals and $150,000 per couple.

- A $4,000 tax credit for college tuition.

- A 10% mortgage interest tax credit (on top of the existing mortgage interest deduction and other housing subsidies).

- A "savings" tax credit of 50% up to $1,000.

- An expansion of the earned-income tax credit that would allow single workers to receive as much as $555 a year, up from $175 now, and give these workers up to $1,110 if they are paying child support.

- A child care credit of 50% up to $6,000 of expenses a year.

- A "clean car" tax credit of up to $7,000 on the purchase of certain vehicles.

Here's the political catch. All but the clean car credit would be "refundable," which is Washington-speak for the fact that you can receive these checks even if you have no income-tax liability. In other words, they are an income transfer -- a federal check -- from taxpayers to nontaxpayers. Once upon a time we called this "welfare," or in George McGovern's 1972 campaign a "Demogrant." Mr. Obama's genius is to call it a tax cut.

The Tax Foundation estimates that under the Obama plan 63 million Americans, or 44% of all tax filers, would have no income tax liability and most of those would get a check from the IRS each year. The Heritage Foundation's Center for Data Analysis estimates that by 2011, under the Obama plan, an additional 10 million filers would pay zero taxes while cashing checks from the IRS.

The total annual expenditures on refundable "tax credits" would rise over the next 10 years by $647 billion to $1.054 trillion, according to the Tax Policy Center. This means that the tax-credit welfare state would soon cost four times actual cash welfare. By redefining such income payments as "tax credits," the Obama campaign also redefines them away as a tax share of GDP. Presto, the federal tax burden looks much smaller than it really is.

The political left defends "refundability" on grounds that these payments help to offset the payroll tax. And that was at least plausible when the only major refundable credit was the earned-income tax credit. Taken together, however, these tax credit payments would exceed payroll levies for most low-income workers.

It is also true that John McCain proposes a refundable tax credit -- his $5,000 to help individuals buy health insurance. We've written before that we prefer a tax deduction for individual health care, rather than a credit. But the big difference with Mr. Obama is that Mr. McCain's proposal replaces the tax subsidy for employer-sponsored health insurance that individuals don't now receive if they buy on their own. It merely changes the nature of the tax subsidy; it doesn't create a new one.

There's another catch: Because Mr. Obama's tax credits are phased out as incomes rise, they impose a huge "marginal" tax rate increase on low-income workers. The marginal tax rate refers to the rate on the next dollar of income earned. As the nearby chart illustrates, the marginal rate for millions of low- and middle-income workers would spike as they earn more income.

Some families with an income of $40,000 could lose up to 40 cents in vanishing credits for every additional dollar earned from working overtime or taking a new job. As public policy, this is contradictory. The tax credits are sold in the name of "making work pay," but in practice they can be a disincentive to working harder, especially if you're a lower-income couple getting raises of $1,000 or $2,000 a year. One mystery -- among many -- of the McCain campaign is why it has allowed Mr. Obama's 95% illusion to go unanswered.


How anyone could vote for Obama after reading the facts of his tax plan and the "redistrubition of wealth" to low-income people is unconsionable to me.

Reagan inhereted an economy with 12.5% inflation rate, 7.5% Unemployment rate, and a 15% interest rate.
He fixed it all by lowering taxes. Not by redistributing the wealth to low-income people and creating a bunch of entitlement programs and tax credits that would create over a TRILLION dollars in new spending.
...and he we aren't even getting to his healthcare program yet.

Obama's a borderline Marxist.

Knuckles
10-13-2008, 06:32 PM
From today's WSJ:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122385651698727257.html


How anyone could vote for Obama after reading the facts of his tax plan and the "redistrubition of wealth" to low-income people is unconsionable to me.

Reagan inhereted an economy with 12.5% inflation rate, 7.5% Unemployment rate, and a 15% interest rate.
He fixed it all by lowering taxes. Not by redistributing the wealth to low-income people and creating a bunch of entitlement programs and tax credits that would create over a TRILLION dollars in new spending.
...and he we aren't even getting to his healthcare program yet.

Obama's a borderline Marxist.

Now, I'm not saying that this is completely bullshit but it certainly is not a real article from the wall street journal.

It's in the opinion section with no clear author.

Documad
10-13-2008, 06:37 PM
Now, I'm not saying that this is completely bullshit but it certainly is not a real article from the wall street journal.

It's in the opinion section with no clear author.

And Rupert Murdoch owns the journal now. It's curious that there is no author.

I immediately noticed that the author wrongly thinks that McCain is proposing a $5000 tax credit for individuals to purchase health care and that's wrong. w the $5000 is wrong.

RobMoney$
10-13-2008, 06:38 PM
Are you challenging the validity of the specific numbers?

I doubt the WSJ would print them if they weren't true, even in an opinion article.

RobMoney$
10-13-2008, 06:46 PM
And Rupert Murdoch owns the journal now. It's curious that there is no author.

I immediately noticed that the author wrongly thinks that McCain is proposing a $5000 tax credit for individuals to purchase health care and that's wrong. w the $5000 is wrong.


Read what the author says.
...for individuals to buy health insurance.
meaning to individually buy insurance for your family as opposed to buying it in a group plan through your employer.
It's a term in the insurance industry, a group plan or an individual plan. It's still referred to as an individual plan even though it may cover a whole family.

He didn't say $5000 per individual.

Documad
10-13-2008, 06:55 PM
Are you challenging the validity of the specific numbers?

I doubt the WSJ would print them if they weren't true, even in an opinion article.
I don't know. I tried and failed to find out how they select articles for that section. I couldn't figure out what that section even is. Do you know? It is Rupert Murdoch's opinion. In the link to the forums, it seemed like maybe it was written by a sort of mod of the message board, but I was confused by the set up.

Not that it matters. I believe that any responsible president should raise taxes and cut spending until we get the deficit under control, so the argument about how much they're going to cut my taxes is silly to me. McCain promises to cut my taxes by several thousand dollars but I'd rather that we pay down the debt. And stop sending all that money to Iraq. :rolleyes:

I think most people think the $5000 is an individual credit. And it's not really a credit anyhow because I'd rather give up McCain's $2500 and have things stay as they are with my employer paying for my insurance and me not being taxed on it. I don't want to find and negotiate my own insurance policy. Alas.

RobMoney$
10-13-2008, 07:41 PM
I think most people think the $5000 is an individual credit. And it's not really a credit anyhow because I'd rather give up McCain's $2500 and have things stay as they are with my employer paying for my insurance and me not being taxed on it. I don't want to find and negotiate my own insurance policy. Alas.


Lets say my company pays me about $10,000 in health benefits.
Even at the highest rate, that's $3,600 in new taxes (the average would be around $2,800). With a 5k rebate, it most certainly reduces my tax burden.

Laver1969
10-13-2008, 08:21 PM
Here's an article that's seems unbiased on the whole topic. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-campaign5-2008oct05,0,2863079.story

Here's the meat of it:

A number of independent analysts have concluded that McCain's plan would prompt younger workers to abandon their employer-sponsored plans to find less expensive coverage on the open market -- meaning employers could end up with a pool of older workers, whose healthcare is more expensive. "Many employers will drop their healthcare plans altogether," Obama predicted.

"Under the McCain plan, at least 20 million Americans will lose the insurance they rely on from their workplace," he said, citing a recent analysis of McCain’s plan in the journal Health Affairs. But the Illinois senator did not mention that the same analysis found that 21 million Americans could gain coverage under the Republican nominee's plan.

Holtz-Eakin disputed Obama's 20-million figure and called the Democratic nominee's assertion that employers would stop providing insurance "patently false." Employers would still be able to deduct health insurance costs, and they would still be competing to attract quality employees, he said. "Their incentive will be unchanged."

John Holahan, director of the nonpartisan Health Policy Research Center at the Urban Institute, said that though Obama's wording about the 20 million workers was technically correct, analyses of McCain's plan have shown "the net effect is more or less a wash, or a small gain."

Obama's charge that taxes may go up under McCain's plan is true in some cases, Holahan said, because McCain's tax credit would not keep up with healthcare inflation.

"After five to 10 years, the current tax deduction is going to be worth more than the current value of the credit," Holahan said. "Depending on your income -- you could be worse or better off."



From my personal perspective, I'd love to see a better (universal) type health care system. I see my parents struggling with medical bills, fighting with the insurance company over what they'll pay and what they won't, and worrying about money instead of their health.

King PSYZ
10-13-2008, 09:39 PM
Lets say my company pays me about $10,000 in health benefits.
Even at the highest rate, that's $3,600 in new taxes (the average would be around $2,800). With a 5k rebate, it most certainly reduces my tax burden.


Or let's say you have a kid and then you get taxed on 100k in medical bills... and your copay or monthly has probablly gone up since it will be more expensive for employers to provide insurance if at all.

And if you think for a second you can get the same kind of rate on your own, you're sadly mistaken.

RobMoney$
10-13-2008, 09:45 PM
From my personal perspective, I'd love to see a better (universal) type health care system. I see my parents struggling with medical bills, fighting with the insurance company over what they'll pay and what they won't, and worrying about money instead of their health.

I'm sure everyone would like to see a free, universal, government funded healthcare system. Unfortunetly this is not the time to tackle that.

Considering 9-11 was an attack on not only our country, but also our economic system, I'm more concerned with fixing the economy and Iraq first.


Now, back to the topic at hand.
Obama's plan to give away thousands of dollars to people who don't even pay taxes.

If Obama's elected I guess I will have to quit my job and get on the dole?

King PSYZ
10-13-2008, 09:55 PM
I'm sure everyone would like to see a free, universal, government funded healthcare system. Unfortunetly this is not the time to tackle that.

Considering 9-11 was an attack on not only our country, but also our economic system, I'm more concerned with fixing the economy and Iraq first.


Now, back to the topic at hand.
Obama's plan to give away thousands of dollars to people who don't even pay taxes.

If Obama's elected I guess I will have to quit my job and get on the dole?

Rob, you can't just quit, you wouldn't get the EIC or work credit but if you can afford to make under the EIC cap, buy a house, buy a new Prius, go to College, have some kids, and start a savings account then by all means do so.

Anyone with any sense can see that people on the dole or "welfare recipients" are not going to get most of those breaks... Good attempt though.

Aside from the unauthored article from what seems to be the internet forum section of the WSJ or from it's blog pages (which have published some outlandish shit in the past) yeah total success.

Laver1969
10-13-2008, 10:11 PM
I guess I don't understand this tax credits stuff too well, Rob. How is someone without a job going to get free money?

1. Is that first tax credit of $500 or $1000 just free money whether you work or not? Ok...I wouldn't quit my job to get a free $500.

2. The tax credit of $4000 for college. Would I get a free $4000 if I don't go to college? I think a lot of college student don't work...so a $4000 just reduced the amount of student loans they'll accumulate. Right? And the more college educated folks in America is a good thing.

3. The 10% tax credit on mortgage interest. What's so bad about this? I couldn't pay my mortgage if I quit my job and just accepted the 10% free money.

4. Savings tax credit of 50% up to $1000. I'm not even sure what this means? But if I'm unemployed and only have a grand in the bank...I won't be having that grand very long.

5. Expansion of the earned income tax. Does that mean you pay less income taxes if you're unemployed?

6. The child care credit of 50% up to $6,000 of expenses a year. If you're unemployed isn't it unlikely you're spending a lot of money on child-care and day-care?

King PSYZ
10-13-2008, 10:12 PM
Why would you need daycare, you're at home with no job?

Documad
10-14-2008, 12:37 AM
Lets say my company pays me about $10,000 in health benefits.
Even at the highest rate, that's $3,600 in new taxes (the average would be around $2,800). With a 5k rebate, it most certainly reduces my tax burden.

I don't think it works that way. I think that the $5000 for you and your kids has to be paid to an insurance company. You don't get $5000 in your pocket. As I understand it (and I could be wrong) in your hypothetical scenario, you pay $2800 out of pocket in new taxes and you don't get anything from the government for health care coverage unless your employer drops your coverage (which they're likely to do now that their employees have $5000 in government money to pay for them--and companies that want to reduce costs and stay competitive will almost inevitably cut benefits if their competitors are cutting benefits and having employees get the $5000 from the government instead). So instead of getting $10,000 in benefits for free, you get $5,000 in benefits so long as you actually spend $5,000.

And like Laver's article says, all of the experts I've seen who have commented on McCain's plan predict that many millions of people currently being covered by an employer will not longer get health insurance that way.

But yeah, I'm no expert.

And frankly, I doubt that any of this stuff will pass congress as proposed.

King PSYZ
10-14-2008, 01:48 AM
I wonder how anyone figures that it would cause 21 million more to gain coverage while 20 million loose it?

Is it assuming that 21 million uninsured will then be able to afford insurrance?

How did they come to that number?

Do you really think that 21 million uninsured Americans who are only a $416/mo payment to cover their whole family wouldn't do so now? OK, well maybe not RIGHT NOW, but in general.

What kind of insurrance can you buy a family for $5k?

And with an imaginary net gain of 1 million, which is fairly specious in and of itself, how is that making anything better? So out of 301,621,157 people less than 0.33% will be added to the insured? Hardly a comprehensive solution...

But enforcement of current laws, and tighter regulation of the industry to help drive down costs seems like a better long term sollution.

roosta
10-14-2008, 02:43 AM
what a monster, trying to make a more fair and equal society!

RobMoney$
10-14-2008, 04:56 AM
what a monster, trying to make a more fair and equal society!


More fair for who?

RobMoney$
10-14-2008, 05:08 AM
I don't think it works that way. I think that the $5000 for you and your kids has to be paid to an insurance company. You don't get $5000 in your pocket. As I understand it (and I could be wrong) in your hypothetical scenario, you pay $2800 out of pocket in new taxes and you don't get anything from the government for health care coverage unless your employer drops your coverage (which they're likely to do now that their employees have $5000 in government money to pay for them--and companies that want to reduce costs and stay competitive will almost inevitably cut benefits if their competitors are cutting benefits and having employees get the $5000 from the government instead). So instead of getting $10,000 in benefits for free, you get $5,000 in benefits so long as you actually spend $5,000.

And like Laver's article says, all of the experts I've seen who have commented on McCain's plan predict that many millions of people currently being covered by an employer will not longer get health insurance that way.

But yeah, I'm no expert.

And frankly, I doubt that any of this stuff will pass congress as proposed.


Yes, the $5000 would be payable to the insurance company of your choosing, not to you directly. If they Gov't paid it to you directly then we all know most people would just go out and spend it on candy, like Dorothy wants to do. Then we'd have people dying in the street with no way to pay for healthcare once they became sick.
Not a wise plan.

The way I believe it would work is that your employer would report to the IRS how much they spent on healthcare for you. So if they paid $10,000 a year, you would be responsible for the tax on that, which would nominally be $2,800. The $5000 tax credit is there to offset that burden.
So in summation,
5000-2800= +2200