The Final Debate

[Dharma]

One of these fuckers better bring it tonight, or I am voting for Nader.

[funk63]

Its gonna be more epic than star wars

[Bob]

i hope they (continue to) talk about nothing but their tax plans again, i know they beat the crap out of that horse for the past two debates but you know, i think i need them to go over it one more time

i wonder what joe the plumber thinks about all this

[kaiser soze]

oh fuck!

mccain brought the "Joe the Plumber"!!!

[jennyb]

Somebody's not wearing a flag pin... :eek:

[funk63]

Im actually incapable of watching it right now, how is it goin?

[Dharma]

I like the setup tonight, how they are interacting with each other.

[Burnout18]

McCain looking more relaxed the obama?!?!?!?!

[funk63]

tantalizing

[Dharma]

McCain is scoring higher on CNN for undecided voters than any other debate.

[kaiser soze]

thank god the desk is wide enough to keep mccain from reaching over the table and punching Obama

No flag pin = No Country First (n)

oh his energy plan is....well completely opposite of how he has voted

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2008/mccain_gw_record.html

mccain cannot even talk straight :confused:

[funk63]

McCain is scoring higher on CNN for undecided voters than any other debate.



that gives me a boner so hard I could fuck a marble wall

[Dharma]

Did the audience laugh when McCain said he wasn't Bush? ...I swear I heard laughing.

[funk63]

Im imagining it looks something like this (http://www.freewebs.com/lightsidewarriors/normal_Coruscant-14-SenateSpeakingPlatform.jpg)

[Documad]

I think McCain won the first half hour. This is his best performance in the whole campaign so far. If he keeps this up, he will get incredible press tonight and tomorrow because expectations were so low.

[funk63]

they should just tie their penises together and have a penis-tug-of-war to decide who wins this thing.

[Dharma]

I think McCain won the first half hour. This is his best performance in the whole campaign so far. If he keeps this up, he will get incredible press tonight and tomorrow because expectations were so low.

I agree .... I am shocked, he is really going after Obama.

Wow!

[Bob]

i think obama is trying to kill mccain by raising his heart rate. he could beat palin easily

[kaiser soze]

Maybe if he let Obama speak this would be a debate rather than a spoiled brat bullying around someone who has better behavior

glad to hear mccain is proud of the assholes who frequent his rallies, lick my finger and feel for the wind but I think this guy said he supports terrorists

[Burnout18]

they should just tie their penises together and have a penis-tug-of-war to decide who wins this thing.

HOTT

[kaiser soze]

I agree .... I am shocked, he is really going after Obama.

Wow!

that is ALL mccain knows....this is his platform as we have seen as of late

[jennyb]

"our best insight yet is who you picked as a running mate..." -Schieffer

*spits out beer*

[funk63]

So mccains like, obi wan. and obama is like luke, or something.

[Bob]

"sarah palin is a role model to women and reformers"

i literally nearly spit my beer out on that one

[kaiser soze]

did mccain just say "Breast of fresh air" ?

oh....palin is not in touch with parents and children with special needs

she's neglecting her special needs child with down's syndrome for her power grab!

(n)

[funk63]

HOTT

I know right Im thinking, Obama has youth and penile versatility but, McCain probably has more girth. but his weakness is though is hes gotta have frail balls what with all that radiation treatment or whatever not really sure how that works

[jennyb]

Obama is just so beautiful. :o

[funk63]

And he regularly uses sytropin.

[Bob]

have i had too much to drink, or did obama just say that we need a leader who will enforce unfair trade agreements?

[kaiser soze]

Who is this joe plumber??

[funk63]

Obama is mind fucking you with the force.

[Dharma]

Do you think Joe the Plummer really exists? ...somethings fishy.

[funk63]

Who is this joe plumber??

joe wan bidenobi?

[Bob]

if i were joe the plumber i'd feel fairly condescended to by both these guys right about now

[Burnout18]

joe the plummer is some shmo who confronted obama earlier this week about his tax plan, and obama basically came off sounding somewhat socialist saying he wants to spread the wealth and his income earned will be spread to help others.

[jennyb]

Who is this joe plumber??

I don't know, but I'm 'Jane Six Pack' and I want them to talk to ME dammit!

[Bob]

all this "i want to let YOU do the job, i want to let YOU find your own healthcare," is this reminding anyone else of all the "people should be free to negotiate the terms of their own employment" stuff that people used to say to argue against stuff like minimum wage, maximum hours, and laws against child labor? individuals don't tend to do so hot when they have to negotiate for things with big companies.

[Dharma]

My company pays all of my medical, am I still eligable for the $5000 credit?

[funk63]

Did you see the look on his face just now aploraplous@

[Burnout18]

My company pays all of my medical, am I still eligable for the $5000 credit?

i think so, but that I think that is because your medical benefits will be taxed.... that credit will prolly be used to offset tax. I think,,,, i am not 100% sure on that.

[funk63]

Obama: "John McCain fucks palatypuses."

[Burnout18]

Obama: "John McCain fucks palatypuses."

What if obama just ripped pieces of paper out of his note book and just starting throwing them at mccain..... I think that would piss off mccain enought to make him snap.

[jennyb]

My company pays all of my medical, am I still eligable for the $5000 credit?

The whole McCain Health Insurance credit discussion took place here (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=1622269) and it revolved around the topic of 'soda pop'. (I believe as a single lonely gal such as myself, it'd be $2500, 5Gs is for a 'family')

[kaiser soze]

*snort*

[Laver1969]

Did you order the Code Red?....You're goddamn right I did!

[saz]

mccain needs a top hat and monocle.

[kaiser soze]

mccain needs his head checked

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlrf32JI708&eurl

[yeahwho]

mccain needs his head checked



He should call up Joe the Plumber, he checks heads all the time.

[RobMoney$]

Who is this joe plumber??


This was the front page story in the NY Post today.

Joe the Plummer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rYgKFWHzE0)

Here's an interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDVM7ODUBn8&feature=related) with Joe.

Socialist Obama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZQ03kgB6Bg&feature=related) wants me to be neighborly.

[funk63]

this guys a fuckin nerd (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBIDHziKbKM&watch_response)

[King PSYZ]

Yeah I am fairly certain that Joe the Plumber is kind of a set in his way good ol redneck boy.

I just heard him being interviewed this morning and this is a guy who was bummed out when at 18 he found out "I was a yankee, I was disapointed to find out I'm a yankee"...

Dollars to donuts says he never planned to vote for Obama even if Jesus himself was his running mate (more so when he found out that Jesus looks like he's from the middle east/northern Africa...)

McCain is a smug crazy person. My girlfriend and I watched the debates last night on CNN (they showed more split screen than any other network) and she came in originally as a Hillary supporter who would either not vote or vote for McCain. At the end of the debate she said "well, I gotta go vote for Obama".

[Echewta]

Was it my imagination or did McCain use the term "pro abortion." I dislike when those who are pro-life use that term for those who are pro-choice.

Major points to Obama for saying that abortion is not the way to go and more needs to be done to prevent pregancy to begin with, though he is for the choice being there.

McCain also did some weird uncomfortable stuff at the end of the debate when he didn't know which way to go and kept sticking his tongue out. That was pretty bizzare.

[YoungRemy]

it turns out joe the plumber isn't even registered to vote... allegedly

Joe Wurzelbacher may end up being the most embarrassed plumber in America when all is said and done. There are a few problems already with his story:
- He hasn't even bought the business yet, and claims he wouldn't because he might have to pay more taxes. Hmmm
- It is a 2 man operation. Sound like a $250K "Profit" business to you?
- He must have an awful accountant. If he plans to buy this 2 man operation, why wouldn't their salaries and other deductions be taken off the gross - lowering the gross income of a 2 man plumbing outfit WELL below a $250,000 taxable 'profit'?
- Joe already talked to right wing websites and had an agenda by bringing this hypothetical situation up in the first place.
- The only tax increase would be 3% mor on ONLY profits OVER $250,000 - up to $250K NO CHANGE. Taking the above mentioned deductions for salaries that would reduce the gross income of the business an equal amount, it's HIGHLY unlikely a 2 man plumbing outfit would ever NET over $250,000 a year. Even so, say it NETTED (not grossed) $300,000 (after deductions for salary, equipment, milage, equipment, etc) would only be $1500. And this is what's stopping him from buying the business? I say bullshit
There's just too much about JOE THE PLUMBER's story that doesn't add up.
If it turns out he's not even registered to vote, that would be a real embarrassment he brought on himself by both that reason and lying about hesitating over a decision to buy a business for reasons that are very questionable.
I mean, he won't buy a business that'd have to gross MUCH more than $250,000 (unlikely with 2 employees) to ever come close to paying more taxes under Obama's plan? This guy has an agenda.

[AceFace]

the debate had my heart racing for the first half hour. i guess i could tell Obama was on the defensive. but i swear, McCain just makes me nervous. he's so rude with his little interjections and stuff. his asking for the "figure" for the insurance fee. when Obama answered it directly, McCain went right back to pretending he didn't. he just made me nervous and uncomfortable.

i kept thinking "i don't know what i'll do if he wins, i can't stand seeing him being so stuffy and irritable." also, McCain seems to be getting creepier looking.

[kaiser soze]

Yeah mccain was acting very reptilian...the tongue, the jerky body movements, the flickering eyes. He was quite agitated, impatient, disrespectful, nervous, angry, pompous, and incapable of compromise.

I am concerned with these character traits mccain would embrace diplomacy even LESS than bush and put the U.S. in some seriously sticky situations.

Obama came to the table cool, collected, and with respect...not fearing that praising and agreeing with his opposition will negatively affect the opinions of those who support him. This exhibits a greater capacity towards diplomacy which the U.S. is in much need of.

[jennyb]

The more I hear about this stupid "plumber" today, the more it reeks of political manipulation. (n)

[kaiser soze]

This jest in!

Joe tha Plumber doesn't have a plumbing license and Joe Six-pack drinks O'Douls!

Joe Wurzelbacher, better known as Joe the Plumber, the nickname Republican John McCain bestowed on him during Wednesday's presidential debate, said he works for a small plumbing company that does residential work. Because he works for someone else, he doesn't need a license, he said.

I don't know what this means, but I think it is big

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27207215

Now when will hear about Joe Cool, Joe Dirt, Joe Camel, Joe Nameth, and most importantly Joseph and Mary?

[King PSYZ]

Was it my imagination or did McCain use the term "pro abortion." I dislike when those who are pro-life use that term for those who are pro-choice.

Major points to Obama for saying that abortion is not the way to go and more needs to be done to prevent pregancy to begin with, though he is for the choice being there.

McCain also did some weird uncomfortable stuff at the end of the debate when he didn't know which way to go and kept sticking his tongue out. That was pretty bizzare.

it's not in your head, he said it and Obama was quick to correct him that there's nobody who's "pro-abortion"

[kaiser soze]

mccain is pro-killing innocent women, men, and children in foreign countries

[King PSYZ]

OH SNAP! (http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/joe-plumber-more-joe-keating-family-)

[yeahwho]

OH SNAP! (http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/joe-plumber-more-joe-keating-family-)

Is this for real? Is this for real REAL? Joe the fucknut plumber is not only just ridiculous as a strategical campaign message, it's a set up to boot? They actually planted Joe the Plumber?

That has to be one of the most brazenly idiotic moves any politician would participate in.

I'm blown away.

[jennyb]

I heard that Joe the Plumber is a......... MUSLIM!!!!!!! *gasp* ........aaaaaaand he, get this, pals around with ass cracks!

[RobMoney$]

Next thing you know, we're going to find out that his name isn't even really Joe. It's probably Joseph or something like that.
I'm also starting to suspect that his last name isn't Plumber either...


Joe the Plumber, ARCH ENEMY OF THE LEFT!

[yeahwho]

Next thing you know, we're going to find out that his name isn't even really Joe. It's probably Joseph or something like that.
I'm also starting to suspect that his last name isn't Plumber either...


Joe the Plumber, ARCH ENEMY OF THE LEFT!

His name is actually Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher. He is not as cool as you. Your an honest dude and I respect you for that Rob, this Joe seems to be of a different material and now that he's had his chance to scrutinize, he's being scrutinized back. I agree completely with the comment below from a story in the NYTimes (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/joe-in-the-spotlight/).

Yeah, great. Joe is the salt of the earth. Except he’s a dishonest Republican trying to help score cheap political points for his candidate. So many people seem to be in this habit, lately, of pretending to be undecided in order to conceal the fact that they’re shilling for a candidate. It’s supposed to make the attack seem more genuine. But Joe is repeating McCain talking points and ignoring the substance of what Obama is saying.

He says he wanted to ‘corner’ Obama and make this point. But now he doesn’t want the scrutiny. Well, he should talk to his own candidate about the scrutiny. Or maybe he can just start being honest so the press can stop pretending that he is somehow representative of something other than another loyal Republican spinning for their terrible candidate.

I’m not pretending to be ‘undecided’ like Joe. He voted in the Republican primary. I attended the Democratic caucus. I stand by my decision and my support of Barack Obama. Joe thinks he can move more people by pretending to be something he’s not.



McCain has no vetting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vetting)capabilities, on top of his bad policies for America he really has proven to me, beyond a shadow of a doubt he is a walking disaster.

[Dorothy Wood]

Joe the plumber just doesn't like taxes, he owes $1,200 in back taxes. there's a lien on his property because of it.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/16/joe-plumber-owes-taxes/

ohhh, joe.

[funk63]

well john mccain is an anamatron

[Bob]

Joe the plumber just doesn't like taxes, he owes $1,200 in back taxes. there's a lien on his property because of it.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/16/joe-plumber-owes-taxes/

ohhh, joe.

OH SNAP! (http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/joe-plumber-more-joe-keating-family-)

it turns out joe the plumber isn't even registered to vote... allegedly

the daily show writers must have the biggest boner in the universe right now

[Dharma]

Joe the Plummer looks like Myu-to.

[yeahwho]

At this point of the presidential campaign, I'm just really happy my name isn't Joe.

[QueenAdrock]

Say it ain't so, yeahwho!

[Documad]

Ha ha. Because Joe the plumber decided to stage a stunt and be a tool for the republicans, now he and his boss are going to be scrutinized by their state government for not having a license.

McCain made a huge mistake making that idiot the focus of this news cycle. The press is loving it.

[RobMoney$]

What next, we'll find out his plumber van is a Honda?


The reward for speaking out against "the One"...

Joe will have all of his records gone over with a fine-tooth comb. His neigbors, co-workers and junior prom date will all be talked to in an effort to intimidate anyone else who would dare to step forward and express an opinion or ask a question.

[RobMoney$]

it turns out joe the plumber isn't even registered to vote... allegedly

Neither is Brett Lambert or some others who post here and think they're opinion matters about American politics.
At least Joe the Plumber is American.

This jest in!

Joe tha Plumber doesn't have a plumbing license and Joe Six-pack drinks O'Douls!


Quick, show me where he ever claimed to have one.
You should also show me a link for where he ever claimed to make 250k a year too like the left are trying to act like they caught him lying about.

He said he's considering buying the plumbing business that makes about 250-280k a year. And he wants to expand it and get more trucks on the street.
More trucks=More money.
So far, the press hasn't found any of that to be untrue.
But hey, they have to try to discredit him somehow.

[AceFace]

i hate this "the one" shit. i've never once thought he was "the one" (whatever that means) other than then one i'm going to vote for.

[checkyourprez]

Neither is Brett Lambert or some others who post here and think they're opinion matters about American politics.
At least Joe the Plumber is American.




Quick, show me where he ever claimed to have one.
You should also show me a link for where he ever claimed to make 250k a year too like the left are trying to act like they caught him lying about.

He said he's considering buying the plumbing business that makes about 250-280k a year. And he wants to expand it and get more trucks on the street.
More trucks=More money.
So far, the press hasn't found any of that to be untrue.
But hey, they have to try to discredit him somehow.


sounds like you want to suck joe plumbers dick.

[QueenAdrock]

Neither is Brett Lambert or some others who post here and think they're opinion matters about American politics.


The ironic thing is, he's actually helped me register quite a few democratic Americans abroad, so while his "opinion doesn't matter," he's had more of an influence on the elections than quite a few people who don't actively participate. :p

[Dorothy Wood]

it sucks for Joe that McCain tried to make an example of him and then the press ran wild. its not Obama's fault. and I don't think it's just the left who is curious about who he is. I guarantee you the right was trying to dig as deep as they could in hopes they could turn him into a great american hero, a symbol against Obama's tyrannical tax plan.


personally I don't care that Joe isn't registered or that he doesn't have a plumbing license. I care that he posed a question in a manner that was dishonest. also, the figure of $250,000, err, $280,000 (he corrected himself because it needed to be over 250,000 for the question to work) is a little too convenient for me. and frankly, most importantly, the dude owes back taxes! how's he going to buy a business when he can't even afford to pay $1,200 in taxes? and there's a lien on his property! if he had posed the question hypothetically, I don't think people would be so interested in his story. mccain's the one who made it personal.

ridiculous. I agree that we should leave joe alone, the great american hero angle didn't work. on to the next charade!

*circus music*

[jennyb]

When you buy a business, you take over an operation that's already generating cash flow and profits.... and that's gonna cost Joe a hefty sum! Especially a plumbing contractor that generates over 250,000/year. Searching around bidnessez for sale I noticed that would at least cost him $600,000 min! More like 800 to a million for a well established operation subject to fat cat tax hikes. For a guy making less than 50k/year and owing back taxes, he better step it up if he wants to complain about being in the big leagues.

As a side... my boss is a small business owner (we're a architect/general contractor) that generates over 250k/year and he's a fervent Obama supporter (lb)

Interestingly enough so is a plumbing union!

I would like to personally welcome you to the United Association's Web site. We're a strong union with over 300,000 members across North America, representing the plumbing and pipe fitting industry. (http://www.ua.org/ua_endorses.asp)

[yeahwho]

My honest opinion is Barack Obama and John McCain should reach out and pay off Joe's fucked up debt. If these two snake men are going to invoke his fucked up life as a measure of some sort of ordinary "American" without proper vetting, own up.

I don't want to hear about that ass anymore nor do I need some phony altruistic posturing, quietly help him out and start focusing on regular taxpayers like me who would like you to stop spending billions of dollars a month in a fucked up murderous search for WMD.

Do something good for somebody and start to focus on the real population of America. Why not leave the Joe's of America out of it.

[RobMoney$]

Does it really matter if Joe has a plumbers license, only makes 40k a year, owes back taxes, or is related to John McCain himself? It doesn't change Obama's answer to the question posed.

The fact of the matter is that the company Joe works for consists of the Owner and Joe. They have discussed plans for Joe to take over once the owner retires. Joe also has said he'd like to expand the company and put more trucks on the street, which would most likely mean making more than 250-280k a year.
So for asking about his future, Joe is now having every detail of his life publicized by a ravenous press who's out to tear everyone to shreds. Lovely.

I have a very close friend who fits Joe's situation exactly...

He inhereted his grandmothers' house when she died and moved into it with his wife when he was 22 years old and fresh out of college. He decided he wanted to take a risk and open up a restaurant. He sold his grandmothers house and used the money to buy a corner property which he turned into the small, corner restaurant in the neighborhood.
He and his wife lived in the apartment above the restaurant.
To save money, they both worked there putting in easily 80 hours a week a piece. They didn't take vacations or days off. The restaurant was opened every day.
It was pretty much a successful place since the day it opened meaning it's always busy so they weren't standing around very much, it's hectic.
After about five or six years and probably a hundred employees, they finally found someone they trusted enough with the daily till to make into a manager to help them run the place so they could take some time off every once in a while.
Now, 13 years after he opened his first place he has now opened a second place which was an even bigger risk because of how much money he sunk into the property to totally overhaul the entire building, from the soil pipes under the ground on up. Everything brand new, which meant tons of time and money in permits & licenses from the city and contractors to actually do all the work.
So far business is doing OK, but he took on yet another risk to open a successful business when he didn't have to. He was doing well with his first place.

I can tell you that he clears well over 250k a year alone with the first restaurant. I can also tell you he's far from a prototypical rich guy. He buys every car he's ever owned from the auto auction because he refuses to deal with car dealers and realizes that the value of a car drops the minute you drive it off the lot. Another risk he takes because you never really know if anything's seriously wrong with a car when you by it as-is from an auction, and he has bought a few lemons. One had to have an engine replaced within six months of buying it. And although he most definitely could afford to drive any car he wished, he chooses to dive a used Volkswagen Toureg SUV that he's had for about five years now.

He is a for-real "Joe the Plumber" that will be affected by Obama's 250k+ tax plan.
If that restaurant had failed he would have been out everything and been living in a rented apartment with nothing to show. He took the risk, did the work, and succeded. Why should he be forced to pay more for someone else who hasn't taken that risk in life to be successful. He's also extremely generous in donating to almost anyone who hits him up for charitable causes. I know because I use to run our local youth baseball organization. He gave me a blank check and said he wanted to pay for the upkeep of the fields for the season and for anyone's child who can't afford the fee to register. He did it every year I ran it and continues to to this day because we both grew up playing ball at those fields ourselves.

It just doesn't sit right with me that someone would look at him and tell him that he should be forced to pay more because it's "neighborly" to spread his wealth to others. He worked damn hard for everything he has.

[Bob]

Does it really matter if Joe has a plumbers license, only makes 40k a year, owes back taxes, or is related to John McCain himself? It doesn't change Obama's answer to the question posed.

The fact of the matter is that the company Joe works for consists of the Owner and Joe. They have discussed plans for Joe to take over once the owner retires. Joe also has said he'd like to expand the company and put more trucks on the street, which would most likely mean making more than 250-280k a year.
So for asking about his future, Joe is now having every detail of his life publicized by a ravenous press who's out to tear everyone to shreds. Lovely.

I have a very close friend who fits Joe's situation exactly...

He inhereted his grandmothers' house when she died and moved into it with his wife when he was 22 years old and fresh out of college. He decided he wanted to take a risk and open up a restaurant. He sold his grandmothers house and used the money to buy a corner property which he turned into the small, corner restaurant in the neighborhood.
He and his wife lived in the apartment above the restaurant.
To save money, they both worked there putting in easily 80 hours a week a piece. They didn't take vacations or days off. The restaurant was opened every day.
It was pretty much a successful place since the day it opened meaning it's always busy so they weren't standing around very much, it's hectic.
After about five or six years and probably a hundred employees, they finally found someone they trusted enough with the daily till to make into a manager to help them run the place so they could take some time off every once in a while.
Now, 13 years after he opened his first place he has now opened a second place which was an even bigger risk because of how much money he sunk into the property to totally overhaul the entire building, from the soil pipes under the ground on up. Everything brand new, which meant tons of time and money in permits & licenses from the city and contractors to actually do all the work.
So far business is doing OK, but he took on yet another risk to open a successful business when he didn't have to. He was doing well with his first place.

I can tell you that he clears well over 250k a year alone with the first restaurant. I can also tell you he's far from a prototypical rich guy. He buys every car he's ever owned from the auto auction because he refuses to deal with car dealers and realizes that the value of a car drops the minute you drive it off the lot. Another risk he takes because you never really know if anything's seriously wrong with a car when you by it as-is from an auction, and he has bought a few lemons. One had to have an engine replaced within six months of buying it. And although he most definitely could afford to drive any car he wished, he chooses to dive a used Volkswagen Toureg SUV that he's had for about five years now.

He is a for-real "Joe the Plumber" that will be affected by Obama's 250k+ tax plan.
If that restaurant had failed he would have been out everything and been living in a rented apartment with nothing to show. He took the risk, did the work, and succeded. Why should he be forced to pay more for someone else who hasn't taken that risk in life to be successful. He's also extremely generous in donating to almost anyone who hits him up for charitable causes. I know because I use to run our local youth baseball organization. He gave me a blank check and said he wanted to pay for the upkeep of the fields for the season and for anyone's child who can't afford the fee to register. He did it every year I ran it and continues to to this day because we both grew up playing ball at those fields ourselves.

It just doesn't sit right with me that someone would look at him and tell him that he should be forced to pay more because it's "neighborly" to spread his wealth to others. He worked damn hard for everything he has.

heartwarming. will he be ok if his taxes go up?

[DroppinScience]

heartwarming. will he be ok if his taxes go up?

LOL! (y)

You know what, even if "Joe the Plumber" or Rob's own tearjerking version makes more than $250,000 (which has now been debunked), I think he'll handle the burden if he does indeed have to pay more taxes because HE'S GOT THE MONEY, unlike those with far less income who are being taxed more at the present. If Joe or whoever wants to keep his business going, he's going to need people with more money in their pocket who are willing to use his services.

I do agree, though, both candidates really need to shut up about him because it's got old really fast. It especially doesn't help that he's a total fraud who has no interest in paying any amount of taxes.

[Knuckles]

heartwarming. will he be ok if his taxes go up?
good question

[Bob]

it just kills me that a tax hike for people who make six figures is considered a "radical redistribution of wealth" in this country. what the hell? that isn't a radical redistribution of wealth, it's a tax hike, and i just have a feeling that the people being affected by it are going to land on their feet. i mean i get it, it's YOUR money and YOU WORKED SO HARD FOR IT and what right does the government have to take it away from you and penalize you for your success and use it to help those dastardly lazy poor people who if they would only learn from your shining hardworking example and work hard too, they could all make six figures like you, but they don't, so where do they get off asking for your money? let's not forget who the real victims are here: the ones making over $250,000/year.

[QueenAdrock]

Rob, were you this mad when Clinton did the same thing in 1993?

Bill signed the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993, which provided tax cuts for 15 million low income families and raised taxes on the wealthiest 2% of Americans, much like Obama is suggesting.

From what I remember, he left office with a surplus. And I don't believe you've ever attacked Bill for being a "socialist." Why not?

[DroppinScience]

Rob, were you this mad when Clinton did the same thing in 1993?

Bill signed the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993, which provided tax cuts for 15 million low income families and raised taxes on the wealthiest 2% of Americans, much like Obama is suggesting.

From what I remember, he left office with a surplus. And I don't believe you've ever attacked Bill for being a "socialist." Why not?

Except you're forgetting that Bill Clinton was no elitist! He ate McDonald's and chased after fat women. So it wasn't socialism when he was doing it!

[Bob]

also, i'm curious as to exactly how much the $250,000+ people are actually going to be hurt by this? how exactly is obama adjusting the brackets, and how high is he planning to raise the rate? according to his website (which obviously i'm taking with a grain of salt) he's doing this:

"Ordinary Income: The top two income tax brackets would return to their 1990’s levels of 36% and 39.6%. All other tax brackets would remain as they are today. Obama would also restore the 1990’s levels for the personal exemption and itemized deduction phaseouts (known as PEP and Pease). Obama would work with the Treasury Department to adjust the thresholds of these rates slightly to ensure that no married couple making less than $250,000 (or single making less than $200,000) was affected by these changes.

(from: http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINAL.pdf )

is that propaganda somehow, or is that accurate? it's not so much that he's raising taxes on people making $250,000+, he's just putting them back to where they were before bush lowered them? how bad is joe going to be hurt by that increase?

[yeahwho]

Rob, were you this mad when Clinton did the same thing in 1993?

Bill signed the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993, which provided tax cuts for 15 million low income families and raised taxes on the wealthiest 2% of Americans, much like Obama is suggesting.

From what I remember, he left office with a surplus. And I don't believe you've ever attacked Bill for being a "socialist." Why not?

Both of these candidates are being less than honest with us about reality. Staying with anything that resembles the George W. Bush tax plan is motherfucking insanity.

Side story of note, our National Debt (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iiPw_tglRSoNHLEBU6rOVlBiZbnQD93P59G82).

A watched clock never moves — unless it's the National Debt Clock.

In fact, the digital counter has been moving so much that it recently ran out of digits to display the ballooning figure: $10,150,603,734,720, or roughly $10.2 trillion, as of Saturday afternoon.

The clock was put up by the late real estate mogul Seymour Durst in 1989 when the U.S. government's debt was a mere $2.7 trillion, and was even turned off during the 1990s when the debt decreased.

It will be replaced in 2009 with a new clock, said Jordan Barowitz, a spokesman for the Durst Organization. The new clock will be able to track debt up to a quadrillion dollars, which is a '1' followed by 15 zeros.

So yes here is a candidate, Barack Obama, that is proposing a change much the same as Clinton. It's a distraction really. Orchestrated to prove nothing. There is no cohesive change in McCain's tax plan.

The math is readily available (http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/index.htm), so are the theoretical questions (http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/10/16/the-real-meaning-of-joe-the-plumber.aspx) brought up by Joe the fucknut tax evading plumber.

[King PSYZ]

My honest opinion is Barack Obama and John McCain should reach out and pay off Joe's fucked up debt. If these two snake men are going to invoke his fucked up life as a measure of some sort of ordinary "American" without proper vetting, own up.

I don't want to hear about that ass anymore nor do I need some phony altruistic posturing, quietly help him out and start focusing on regular taxpayers like me who would like you to stop spending billions of dollars a month in a fucked up murderous search for WMD.

Do something good for somebody and start to focus on the real population of America. Why not leave the Joe's of America out of it.

If "Joe" didn't want to be put under the public eye why did he choose to thrust himself under it?

And keep in mind it was John McCain who brought him up even though as far as everyone knew at the time his only knowledge of him was from the short video time on TV...

[QueenAdrock]

he's just putting them back to where they were before bush lowered them? how bad is joe going to be hurt by that increase?

That's what Kerry in '04 wanted to do, too. I've heard time and again "Rolling back the Bush taxcuts" (and I'm sure you all have, too), which is just that. Putting taxes back to pre-Bush times (you know, when we had a good economy...).

It's just different terminology. Democrats will say "rolling back the Bush tax cuts" yet Republicans say "raise your taxes." Technically, they're both true, but either way, if you want to see how these tax cuts/increases will be, just see how the country faired under Bill Clinton.

[yeahwho]

If "Joe" didn't want to be put under the public eye why did he choose to thrust himself under it?

And keep in mind it was John McCain who brought him up even though as far as everyone knew at the time his only knowledge of him was from the short video time on TV...

I realize that John McCain is the one who really used Joe for political capital to begin with. When Obama decided to go ahead and use Joe as part of the discussion, he also played along.

These are two power thirsty politicians with hundreds of millions of dollars who ultimately want to run all US citizens lives, they do not have the right to exploit anyone in their quest and then leave without reparation. That goes beyond the pale with me. Joe is not in prison, he is not breaking any law by asking theoretical questions and really, can't these windbags help out somebody with $3000?

[jennyb]

Something tells me if Joe grants one little interview he'll see some sort of fat payday.

[Dorothy Wood]

regarding rob's sob story, I would like to point out that not everybody gets a free house when they're 22. I'm not discounting hard work, but he wouldn't have been able to buy a building and start a restaurant if he didn't have the cash from selling his grandma's house.

so, congratulations dude, you accomplished the american dream because your grandma died. my grandmas are still alive, so I'm SOL.

I stand to inherit a large cattle ranch when my father dies, but I feel like that's gonna be kind of a pain in the ass. also, who knows when he'll die, geez! I can't wait forever for my windfall! what a homo.

[RobMoney$]

heartwarming. will he be ok if his taxes go up?

Hmm, I'm not sure.
Do ya think the pikers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqDtf1aw818) making 30k a year are gonna have all of their financial problems magically solved by Obama stealing my friends' money and giving them an extra 5k or so back on their taxes, even if they don't pay taxes at all?

You can be a sarcastic asshole all you want, but you completely fail to see the point of the story. It's not an issue of how much money his taxes are going to go up. He likely donates more a year.
It's a matter of Obama telling him he has to pay someone else's share because they aren't willing to work as hard as he does.

Maybe when you finally get out of school and start earning a living you'll understand my point better.


BTW, I can't fucking wait to see the looks on the faces of all of these stupid Hollywood actors and MUSICIANS(Beastie Boys) when Obama takes all of their money and redistributes it to the poor.
They're gonna get hit harder than anyone.

[Bob]

all i know is that it's absolutely despicable, criminal, socialist, communist that obama's going to prevent joe the plumber from achieving the american dream by radically redistributing an extra 3% of his income (well the $30,000 of it that's over $250,000 anyway which, lol, is actually less than some people make in a year, but fuck them)

[yeahwho]

Something tells me if Joe grants one little interview he'll see some sort of fat payday.

He is going to do what any guy smart enough to bend a presidential candidates ear can do in the allotted time. I give him snaps for milking it.

[yeahwho]

BTW, I can't fucking wait to see the looks on the faces of all of these stupid Hollywood actors and MUSICIANS(Beastie Boys) when Obama takes all of their money and redistributes it to the poor.
They're gonna get hit harder than anyone.

You remind me of Archie Bunker. I mean that in a good way.

[Bob]

Hmm, I'm not sure.
Do ya think the pikers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqDtf1aw818) making 30k a year are gonna have all of their financial problems magically solved by Obama stealing my friends' money and giving them an extra 5k or so back on their taxes, even if they don't pay taxes at all?

You can be a sarcastic asshole all you want, but you completely fail to see the point of the story. It's not an issue of how much money his taxes are going to go up. He likely donates more a year.
It's a matter of Obama telling him he has to pay someone else's share because they aren't willing to work as hard as he does.

Maybe when you finally get out of school and start earning a living you'll understand my point better.


BTW, I can't fucking wait to see the looks on the faces of all of these stupid Hollywood actors and MUSICIANS(Beastie Boys) when Obama takes all of their money and redistributes it to the poor.
They're gonna get hit harder than anyone.

tell you what. get ready, write this one down.

if i ever find myself earning over $250,000 a year and start genuinely complaining about how my higher taxes aren't fair, i will record a video of myself eating a turd and mail it to you.

take that, copy that down, put it in a word document, write it on a piece of paper, put it in your safe deposit box, tie a string around your finger so you don't forget it exists, fuck, go all memento and tattoo it on your chest, i don't care. you can hold me to that. i will eat a turd, tape myself doing it, and mail it to you along with a signed, notarized letter saying "you were right, i'm sorry i doubted you" if i find myself complaining about my taxes when i'm making six figures.

by the way, i don't think i did miss the point of the story. did you not see the part where i said i got it? i was being a sarcastic asshole, but clearly i understood your point of view, i just didn't like it.

[RobMoney$]

regarding rob's sob story, I would like to point out that not everybody gets a free house when they're 22. I'm not discounting hard work, but he wouldn't have been able to buy a building and start a restaurant if he didn't have the cash from selling his grandma's house.

so, congratulations dude, you accomplished the american dream because your grandma died. my grandmas are still alive, so I'm SOL.

I stand to inherit a large cattle ranch when my father dies, but I feel like that's gonna be kind of a pain in the ass. also, who knows when he'll die, geez! I can't wait forever for my windfall! what a homo.


Yeah, he sure did luck out didn't he?

Believe me, it wasn't that nice of a house. I think he sold it for about 80k, like 15 years ago I guess.
But I hope you see my point that he could have just sat back and lived there and got a 9 to 5 at some Marketing firm or something and lived a nice, comfortable life. But he took on a risk, an enormous financial risk and enormous amount of physical labor to be successful. He passed up the comfortable life of the 9 to 5 and vacations and sick time.
And now somehow Obama thinks he should have to share the fruits of his labor.
He doesn't have a problem sharing what he has i.e. charity, but that's his decision to make, not the Governments.

[DroppinScience]

tell you what. get ready, write this one down.

if i ever find myself earning over $250,000 a year and start genuinely complaining about how my higher taxes aren't fair, i will record a video of myself eating a turd and mail it to you.

take that, copy that down, put it in a word document, write it on a piece of paper, put it in your safe deposit box, tie a string around your finger so you don't forget it exists, fuck, go all memento and tattoo it on your chest, i don't care. you can hold me to that. i will eat a turd, tape myself doing it, and mail it to you along with a signed, notarized letter saying "you were right, i'm sorry i doubted you" if i find myself complaining about my taxes when i'm making six figures.

by the way, i don't think i did miss the point of the story. did you not see the part where i said i got it? i was being a sarcastic asshole, but clearly i understood your point of view, i just didn't like it.

I think you need to tell us upfront what kind of turd you're going to eat. Will it be those soggy ones or a straight-up solid brown log? I mean, you're going to have to make this count!

[RobMoney$]

tell you what. get ready, write this one down.

if i ever find myself earning over $250,000 a year and start genuinely complaining about how my higher taxes aren't fair, i will record a video of myself eating a turd and mail it to you.

take that, copy that down, put it in a word document, write it on a piece of paper, put it in your safe deposit box, tie a string around your finger so you don't forget it exists, fuck, go all memento and tattoo it on your chest, i don't care. you can hold me to that. i will eat a turd, tape myself doing it, and mail it to you along with a signed, notarized letter saying "you were right, i'm sorry i doubted you" if i find myself complaining about my taxes when i'm making six figures.

by the way, i don't think i did miss the point of the story. did you not see the part where i said i got it? i was being a sarcastic asshole, but clearly i understood your point of view, i just didn't like it.


Well Bob-O, I won't bother holding you to anything.
I doubt you have it in you to make it running your own business.
You're a student that I'll bet dollars to donuts will wind up working for somebody else their whole life.
Not to mention, running your own business will leave you with no time to unleash sarcastic and assholish comments to fools on internet message boards.

[Bob]

Well Bob-O, I won't bother holding you to anything.
I doubt you have it in you to make it running your own business.
You're a student that I'll bet dollars to donuts will wind up working for somebody else their whole life.
Not to mention, running your own business will leave you with no time to unleash sarcastic and assholish comments to fools on internet message boards.

dude, i don't even have an interest in running my own business. am i supposed to? was i supposed to be hurt by that? that's not my dream.

lawyers are busy people too btw, so don't worry, i'm sure once i graduate you won't have to deal with me as much

[Bob]

Yeah, he sure did luck out didn't he?

Believe me, it wasn't that nice of a house. I think he sold it for about 80k, like 15 years ago I guess.
But I hope you see my point that he could have just sat back and lived there and got a 9 to 5 at some Marketing firm or something and lived a nice, comfortable life. But he took on a risk, an enormous financial risk and enormous amount of physical labor to be successful. He passed up the comfortable life of the 9 to 5 and vacations and sick time.
And now somehow Obama thinks he should have to share the fruits of his labor.
He doesn't have a problem sharing what he has i.e. charity, but that's his decision to make, not the Governments.

so when bill clinton was stealing as much of his money as obama plans to, did you have as big a problem with that as you have now?

[RobMoney$]

all i know is that it's absolutely despicable, criminal, socialist, communist that obama's going to prevent joe the plumber from achieving the american dream by radically redistributing an extra 3% of his income (well the $30,000 of it that's over $250,000 anyway which, lol, is actually less than some people make in a year, but fuck them)


If it's such a small amount then why take it?

[Bob]

If it's such a small amount then why take it?

to make up for $1,200 he hasn't paid yet? because it will be a bigger amount for the people who make a little more than $280,000 a year (give or take a few zeroes)? hell should i know

[Dorothy Wood]

meh, I'm not really in a position to argue for obama's tax plan. I'm not voting for him based on it. I'm into a straight percentage for everyone...and I don't really think that people that don't work should get tax refunds. shit, my inner libertarian is showing. :/

I do think that some people are more priveledged/lucky than others and that as a society it serves everyone to take care of the people who can't quite make it for one reason or another. unfortunately some people take advantage of that. but there is a need to provide opportunities for people that don't have them.

all in all, I don't think the tax increase will be that detrimental to wealthy people, so I'm not upset about it or anything even though I think it's a bit unfair. a couple of friends of mine stand to make a lot of money at the business they just opened. and one of the guy's parents are micro and macro economists who make tons of money, I'm talking millions. they're all hard working good people who happen to be rich and they support obama.

"republicans" (quotes because I don't believe they are true republicans anymore) have been giving huge tax breaks to corporations for years and I think obama is just trying to switch things around for a change. I don't know, I'm not an economist. all I know is we have two choices, and one of the choices scares the shit out of me, so I'm picking the other choice.

[King PSYZ]

Hmm, I'm not sure.
Do ya think the pikers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqDtf1aw818) making 30k a year are gonna have all of their financial problems magically solved by Obama stealing my friends' money and giving them an extra 5k or so back on their taxes, even if they don't pay taxes at all?

You can be a sarcastic asshole all you want, but you completely fail to see the point of the story. It's not an issue of how much money his taxes are going to go up. He likely donates more a year.
It's a matter of Obama telling him he has to pay someone else's share because they aren't willing to work as hard as he does.

Maybe when you finally get out of school and start earning a living you'll understand my point better.


BTW, I can't fucking wait to see the looks on the faces of all of these stupid Hollywood actors and MUSICIANS(Beastie Boys) when Obama takes all of their money and redistributes it to the poor.
They're gonna get hit harder than anyone.


wow... just wow

You know what, you're living in a fucking fantasy world now. Your hatred of Obama and everything he stands for has finally broken your fragile psyche...

So by your own account nobody should pay taxes?

Awesome! Hey everyone, Rob says nobody should steal our cash damn it! why does the government need our charity handouts to pay for the military, roads, schools, police, fire departments, national guard, VA hospitals, Fort Knox, the Hoover Dam and other public works projects, national parks, goverment employees (you know the president, govenors, senators, aides, representitives, etc), social security, medicare/caid, FAA, INS, FEMA, CIA, FBI, FDA, ATF, none of it. Fuck those dudes! Why can't they work hard like the guy making MORE THAN A QUARTER OF A MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR WHO NOW HAS TO PAY AN EXTRA 3% ON THAT AMMOUNT OVER A QUARTER OF A MILLION DOLLARS.

Jesus Christ people, you know how hard it is to make a living scraping by with a mere QUARTER A MILLION DOLLARS IN PROFIT OVER AND ABOVE OPERATING COSTS, MAINTINENCE, PAYROLL, INVENTORY, BUILDING LEASE, PERMITS, ETC.? It's fucking rough alright, just trust me, cause you loosers sure won't ever live that hard life since you got it easy being pussy liberals going to college off my friend's hard earned 3% over and above $250,000 in profit.

Rob, you're a fucking dolt. Yes that's a personal attack. You're batshit fucking crazy. You simply cannot accept a black man will be the next president of the united states can you? You went from a full on dem supporting Hillary Clinton a mere few months ago while she split the party in two and was pushing for MANY OF THE SAME THINGS YOU DERIDE OBAMA FOR... You honestly think that Hillary wouldn't bring back taxes with pre Bush levels? You know the tax levels HER HUSBAND put into effect... You think she wouldn't be pushing for an even more SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE REFORM? You think she wouldn't also push for all these things and more "liberal" points? Give me a fucking break.

You're imaginary friend making a killing in the resturaunt biz off the corpse of his dead grandmother is just that... imaginary.

The food industry is a near impossible nut to crack, margins in anything but booze are slim to none and most opperate at a razor thin budget. A fucking thunderstorm on a Friday or Saturday night could put some resturaunts behind on their lease... So for someone to just happen into the biz and a few years later be pulling in OVER A QUARTER MILLION DOLLARS IN PROFIT is bullshit. Is he running a brothel or a cocaine opperation in these places? Because there is no way in hell he's pulling that much in PROFIT. Because unless he's borderline retarded he's going to deduct from earnings upkeep, lease, payroll, inventory, operating costs, etc. and to have that much left over is unheard of. Plus I'd love to see the mom and pop small resturaunt under an apartment support 100 employees... More like 15-20 at best.

Not to even get into the fact that the tax "hike" was in refrence to individuals and that Obama has pledged to help ensure more small and middle sized business' get established by making it easier to start and maintain their business.

You call it stealing, I call it about fucking time. I am tired of paying 20-30% of my income to taxes and social security to watch the nation's richest pay NOTHING... ZERO, ZILCH, NADA NUNCA.

In summation, go fuck yourself.

[Bob]

Jesus Christ people, you know how hard it is to make a living scraping by with a mere QUARTER A MILLION DOLLARS IN PROFIT OVER AND ABOVE OPERATING COSTS, MAINTINENCE, PAYROLL, INVENTORY, BUILDING LEASE, PERMITS, ETC.? It's fucking rough alright, just trust me, cause you loosers sure won't ever live that hard life since you got it easy being pussy liberals going to college off my friend's hard earned 3% over and above $250,000 in profit.

that's all....quite a bit harsher than i would put it (and i'm a sarcastic asshole) but that does remind me, that's another reason why the joe the plumber thing is misleading. if i'm remembering the debate correctly (and i might not be), mccain was playing it up like because of obama's tax plan, joe would have to be paying so much tax that he wouldn't be able to expand his business, wouldn't be able to buy the trucks, hire the employees, he just plain wouldn't be able to buy the business, and because of obama's high taxes, joe would be prevented from achieving the american dream

but that isn't how taxes work, i don't think? the money spent on the trucks, the employees, all the business expenses, that's all deductible, right? the only income that would be taxed would be the $250,000 that joe would be making after he pays his employees, buys his trucks, gets his plumber's license, etc. he can still run his business just fine. he just pays an extra 3% on the profit (not revenue) he makes above $250,000. like he would have if he'd bought the business while clinton was president.

also, obama's answer to joe's question was actually pretty damn good once you take it out of the fox news filter. here it is (all 5 minutes of it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA))

[King PSYZ]

You are quite correct Bob, all those things are deductible and therefor not counting as profit.

And again, everything I have read refers to the mythical 250k figure for individuals, not a small business.

But if your plumber is making a $250k profit a year, well it's not just your pipes he's cleaning out...

[Bob]

alright, yeah, i am remembering the debate correctly

MCCAIN: No. I would like to mention that a couple days ago Senator Obama was out in Ohio and he had an encounter with a guy who's a plumber, his name is Joe Wurzelbacher.

Joe wants to buy the business that he has been in for all of these years, worked 10, 12 hours a day. And he wanted to buy the business but he looked at your tax plan and he saw that he was going to pay much higher taxes.

You were going to put him in a higher tax bracket which was going to increase his taxes, which was going to cause him not to be able to employ people, which Joe was trying to realize the American dream.

Now Senator Obama talks about the very, very rich. Joe, I want to tell you, I'll not only help you buy that business that you worked your whole life for and be able -- and I'll keep your taxes low and I'll provide available and affordable health care for you and your employees.

And I will not have -- I will not stand for a tax increase on small business income. Fifty percent of small business income taxes are paid by small businesses. That's 16 million jobs in America. And what you want to do to Joe the plumber and millions more like him is have their taxes increased and not be able to realize the American dream of owning their own business.

unless by "employees" he meant "pool boys"...

[Laver1969]

also, obama's answer to joe's question was actually pretty damn good once you take it out of the fox news filter. here it is (all 5 minutes of it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA))

Thanks for posting that, Bob. I've seen the short clips on TV but haven't bothered to look for the whole 5 min. conversation. That was actually very good. I like Obama but I never expected him to actually spend a good 5 minutes listening to the guy and explaining in pretty decent detail about the tax plan. And it was classy for him to say I may not get your vote but if if elected I'll still be working for you.

I'm sure there are some clips of McCain listening and talking to folks in a similar fashion.

There were some good points. If you make the middle class stronger they will spend more. Eat at Rob's friend's restaurant, hire Joe to fix their toilet instead of fixing it themselves. Plus a lot of folks like Rob's friend donate a considerable amount to charities and different organizations. That stuff is tax deductable and that would come off the highest taxed bracket...I would assume.

All that being said, does anyone have any quick-read links on pros and cons of the flat tax ideas?

[Documad]

Does it really matter if Joe has a plumbers license, only makes 40k a year, owes back taxes, or is related to John McCain himself? It doesn't change Obama's answer to the question posed.

Only if you think that facts matter. Only if you like to hear the truth instead of lies and bullshit. The guy didn't lie about the plumbing license. He's just the typical asshole who breaks the law every day and he and the business he works for hurt other small businesses that actually follow the law. I get letters from those businesses. They get pissed off at assholes like Joe and his boss. Joe's boss probably hasn't been paying into work comp either because when fly by night companies break one law they tend to break them all. But that's my personal axe to grind. :p But Joe did lie about being a potential candidate to buy a business.

As for your friend. Tell him that he can continue to sleep at night. The first $250,000 he earns each year (after he takes all those itemized deductions and writes off all the living expenses that I can't write off because I'm not self-employed and writes off all his losses from side ventures), well that first $250,000 will be taxed AT EXACTLY THE SAME RATE. Right? It's only the amount he makes over the $250,000 that gets taxed at a higher rate. How much does your friend make? If he makes $300,000 a year, he pays he exact same tax rate on $250,000 and a slightly higher rate on the $50,000. And do you know what? I'm FINE with that. People who are successful are generally paying less than their share, and they've benefitted from things infrastructure that has been mostly paid for by people who make a lot less.

And let's remember that Obama didn't make Joe the Plumber a celebrity and he has absolutely nothing to do with this clusterfuck. Joe was probably a plant but if he wasn't then he's an unlucky dumbass. McCain either was part of a plot or more likely he was using his ham-handed campaign technique to try and play up something to his advantage. But he didn't do his homework and he picked the wrong guy to thrust into the national spotlight. Then Joe got a hard on when the national media turned up at his doorstep and he have dozens of interviews. I don't know how anyone over the age of 13 doesn't know the risks involved in that sort of venture in 2008. :rolleyes:

[Dharma]

So from what I have gathered from individuals I know who make over 250k (my parents, brothers, co-workers and my current sex partner) is that there is a trickle effect that will hurt the economy to offset higher taxes for the rich.

and these items came up ... Less charitable contributions, layoffs, less spending, lower bonuses ....etc....there were more, but from what I gathered it is less money into the system.

Rich people know how to work around his plan ...but all I see is the economy and jobs being hurt by this plan.

So let me just throw this out there ....all of you don't even matter in this plan anyway ...your taxes are going to remain the same....

so who is gaining in this plan really?

[Knuckles]

You simply cannot accept a black man will be the next president of the united states can you? You went from a full on dem supporting Hillary Clinton a mere few months ago while she split the party in two and was pushing for MANY OF THE SAME THINGS YOU DERIDE OBAMA FOR... You honestly think that Hillary wouldn't bring back taxes with pre Bush levels? You know the tax levels HER HUSBAND put into effect... You think she wouldn't be pushing for an even more SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE REFORM? You think she wouldn't also push for all these things and more "liberal" points? Give me a fucking break.



Rob, you should address this.

[Bob]

So from what I have gathered from individuals I know who make over 250k (my parents, brothers, co-workers and my current sex partner) is that there is a trickle effect that will hurt the economy to offset higher taxes for the rich.

and these items came up ... Less charitable contributions, layoffs, less spending, lower bonuses ....etc....there were more, but from what I gathered it is less money into the system.

Rich people know how to work around his plan ...but all I see is the economy and jobs being hurt by this plan.

i'm not a tax expert, but i don't think it's going to work like that, no. charitable contributions, wages, and business expenses are deductible. they aren't taxed. the increased taxes won't affect that. only profits are taxed. the money going into the system doesn't get taxed, the money going into the business owners' pockets gets taxed.

as i understand it (and maybe i'm wrong), it's like this. you own a business. you sell boxes. in 2009, your company makes $500,000 selling boxes. you pay your employees $100,000, you spend $100,000 on rent and utilities (for the business), you spend $100,000 on whatever the fuck else goes into making boxes. in total, your expenses are $300,000. $500,000 - $300,000 = $200,000, that's your profit. you aren't hurt by the new taxes. the money you spent creating jobs, expanding your business, the taxes didn't stop you from spending that. and if you say "these new taxes are going to prevent me from providing jobs, from being productive, it's going to hurt the country," that's not true, they're only going to hurt your profits, and it's only going to hurt them for an extra 3% on the profits you make above $250,000 (plus whatever the new percentage is in the tax bracket on top of that, and if you're up there, you have even less reason to complain, because you're doing alright to say the least).

now let's say you make $1,000,000 selling boxes. you pay your employees $200,000, your rent is still $100,000, you spend $200,000 on box-making shit, and you're a swell person so you donate $50,000 to charity. your expenses are now $550,000. $1,000,000 - $550,000 = $450,000. you're now "hurt" by the new taxes and you can't afford the in-ground pool, because that socialist ratfucker obama stole your hard earned money and spent it on homeless people or some hippie bullshit like that. and you totally planned to trickle that money down to people who deserved it, honest. this is the greatest injustice since the holocaust.

basically what i'm saying is, as i understand it, nothing about the taxes affects an employer's ability to provide jobs, pay wages, or donate to charity, because every dollar you spend on that is a dollar you don't have to pay taxes on. the only reason you'd have to lay off employees because of taxes is because you feel like you aren't making enough profits (maybe your shareholders are mad, maybe you took out a subprime mortgage, i don't know). but as far as your revenues are concerned (the money you make selling boxes) you aren't in any trouble, because tax liabilities don't start until after you take into account the money you spend on your business (and charity).

the basic idea is that tax liability is based on income minus expenses. whatever's left over gets taxed (unless you're rich enough to hire expensive accountants to show you how to game the tax code and not pay any taxes at all, but that's a whole other story). but like i said, i'm not an expert; about a month ago i didn't even know how tax brackets worked, so maybe i'm just completely wrong again, if anyone wants to step in and correct me, i'll just be sitting over here eating my humble pie.



So let me just throw this out there ....all of you don't even matter in this plan anyway ...your taxes are going to remain the same....

so who is gaining in this plan really?

i don't 100% understand it, but according to what obama said again and again and again in the debates, 95% of americans are actually going to see a tax cut; people making under $250,000/year, their taxes won't stay the same, they'll be lower. at least that's what i gleaned from the debates but i honestly have a hard time trusting anything anyone says in the debates.

[Dharma]

i'm not a tax expert, but i don't think it's going to work like that, no. charitable contributions, wages, and business expenses are deductible. they aren't taxed. the increased taxes won't affect that. only profits are taxed. the money going into the system doesn't get taxed, the money going into the business owners' pockets gets taxed.

as i understand it (and maybe i'm wrong), it's like this. you own a business. you sell boxes. in 2009, your company makes $500,000 selling boxes. you pay your employees $100,000, you spend $100,000 on rent and utilities (for the business), you spend $100,000 on whatever the fuck else goes into making boxes. in total, your expenses are $300,000. $500,000 - $300,000 = $200,000, that's your profit. you aren't hurt by the new taxes. the money you spent creating jobs, expanding your business, the taxes didn't stop you from spending that. and if you say "these new taxes are going to prevent me from providing jobs, from being productive, it's going to hurt the country," that's not true, they're only going to hurt your profits, and it's only going to hurt them for an extra 3% on the profits you make above $250,000 (plus whatever the new percentage is in the tax bracket on top of that, and if you're up there, you have even less reason to complain, because you're doing alright to say the least).

now let's say you make $1,000,000 selling boxes. you pay your employees $200,000, your rent is still $100,000, you spend $200,000 on box-making shit, and you're a swell person so you donate $50,000 to charity. your expenses are now $550,000. $1,000,000 - $550,000 = $450,000. you're now "hurt" by the new taxes and you can't afford the in-ground pool, because that socialist ratfucker obama stole your hard earned money and spent it on homeless people or some hippie bullshit like that. and you totally planned to trickle that money down to people who deserved it, honest. this is the greatest injustice since the holocaust.

basically what i'm saying is, as i understand it, nothing about the taxes affects an employer's ability to provide jobs, pay wages, or donate to charity, because every dollar you spend on that is a dollar you don't have to pay taxes on. the only reason you'd have to lay off employees because of taxes is because you feel like you aren't making enough profits (maybe your shareholders are mad, maybe you took out a subprime mortgage, i don't know). but as far as your revenues are concerned (the money you make selling boxes) you aren't in any trouble, because tax liabilities don't start until after you take into account the money you spend on your business (and charity).

the basic idea is that tax liability is based on income minus expenses. whatever's left over gets taxed (unless you're rich enough to hire expensive accountants to show you how to game the tax code and not pay any taxes at all, but that's a whole other story). but like i said, i'm not an expert; about a month ago i didn't even know how tax brackets worked, so maybe i'm just completely wrong again, if anyone wants to step in and correct me, i'll just be sitting over here eating my humble pie.

i don't 100% understand it, but according to what obama said again and again and again in the debates, 95% of americans are actually going to see a tax cut; people making under $250,000/year, their taxes won't stay the same, they'll be lower. at least that's what i gleaned from the debates but i honestly have a hard time trusting anything anyone says in the debates.

Thank you ... That seems pretty clear cut.

Business is all about profit and making more...why else would you own your own business? My brother was the one who mentioned doing layoffs if he found his after taxed salary affected to the point it changed his families lifestyle. How that actually works out I don't know. Are employee salaries a 100% write off? I don't think he would have said it if they were.

Has Obama even said what the percentage increase is yet?

Although, I could swear I have heard him state "95% will not see an increase". I could be wrong here, but I have never heard him say 95% lower ...5% higher. Correct me if I am wrong. Please.

So non-business owners who are salaried at 250k or more are pretty much the one's who are going to pay out the most?

The one's who spent 5+ years in college ...obtaining a BA, Masters or PHD in their field....with oddles of college loans and debts, and years of studying...wow...that fucking sucks.

why not just tax celebrities higher? It doesn't cost tuition to become an actor ... and with the movies being made, it doesn't really take talent either.

Win. Win.

[Bob]

Thank you ... That seems pretty clear cut.

Business is all about profit and making more...why else would you own your own business? My brother was the one who mentioned doing layoffs if he found his after taxed salary affected to the point it changed his families lifestyle. How that actually works out I don't know. Are employee salaries a 100% write off? I don't think he would have said it if they were.

my understanding is that if you make under $250,000 you get a cut, and if you make over $250,000, your income below $250,000 is taxed at the same rate that it currently is, and your income above $250,000 is taxed at an additional 3% from what it is now. at least that's what he told joe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA).

my understanding is that wages are completely deductible; if the new taxes made it so that your brother couldn't maintain his current lifestyle, then i guess he'd have to lay off some employees in order to increase his profits so that he could afford it. going back to the hypothetical: you make $1,000,000 selling boxes and pay $550,000 in expenses; maybe with the new taxes, $450,000/year in profits makes it so that you would have to move into a smaller house. you lay off some employees, now you only have $500,000 in expenses, you can keep your current lifestyle. sucks for your employees, but i guess you gotta do what you gotta do. that's just my guess though.

Has Obama even said what the percentage increase is yet?

according to the information on his web site (http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINAL.pdf) the top two tax brackets would go up to 36% and 39.6%, respectively (compared to the current 33% and 35%). according to obama, this is a restoration of the rates on those two brackets to what they were before bush gave them a cut.

Although, I could swear I have heard him state "95% will not see an increase". I could be wrong here, but I have never heard him say 95% lower ...5% higher. Correct me if I am wrong. Please.

i don't fully understand it myself, so if somebody can explain it better than i can, that would be neat, but according to his website:

"Middle class families will see their taxes cut – and no family making less than $250,000 will see their taxes increase. The typical middle class family will receive well over $1,000 in tax relief under the Obama plan, and will pay tax rates that are 20% lower than they faced under President Reagan. According to the Tax Policy Center, the Obama plan provides three times as much tax relief for middle class families as the McCain plan"

So non-business owners who are salaried at 250k or more are pretty much the one's who are going to pay out the most?

The one's who spent 5+ years in college ...obtaining a BA, Masters or PHD in their field....with oddles of college loans and debts, and years of studying...wow...that fucking sucks.

why not just tax celebrities higher? It doesn't cost tuition to become an actor ... and with the movies being made, it doesn't really take talent either.

Win. Win.

maybe i'm just being naive, but in my book, there's very little about making over $250,000/year that "fucking sucks". i'm in law school, i'm going to graduate with over $100,000 of nondischargeable student loan debt, and i'm going to graduate into a recession. even without a recession, my prospects for a good job were never very bright; there are far more law school grads than there are well-paying lawyer jobs out there, and my school is ranked around 80 in the nation and dropping (generally you want to be in the top 50 to have a chance, top 14 if you want to be comfortable).

making over $250,000 a year and "suffering" under the obama tax proposal is kind of at the bottom of my list of headaches.

celebrities will be taxed, as long as they don't cheat. don't worry about that.



by the way, anyone, if i am wrong about everything i'm saying, please, someone step in and correct me (documad, hal9000, travesty......nofenders?), because this is the understanding with which i shall be voting

[Dharma]

my understanding is that if you make under $250,000 you get a cut, and if you make over $250,000, your income below $250,000 is taxed at the same rate that it currently is, and your income above $250,000 is taxed at an additional 3% from what it is now. at least that's what he told joe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA).

my understanding is that wages are completely deductible; if the new taxes made it so that your brother couldn't maintain his current lifestyle, then i guess he'd have to lay off some employees in order to increase his profits so that he could afford it. going back to the hypothetical: you make $1,000,000 selling boxes and pay $550,000 in expenses; maybe with the new taxes, $450,000/year in profits makes it so that you would have to move into a smaller house. you lay off some employees, now you only have $500,000 in expenses, you can keep your current lifestyle. sucks for your employees, but i guess you gotta do what you gotta do. that's just my guess though.



according to the information on his web site (http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINAL.pdf) the top two tax brackets would go up to 36% and 39.6%, respectively (compared to the current 33% and 35%). according to obama, this is a restoration of the rates on those two brackets to what they were before bush gave them a cut.



i don't fully understand it myself, so if somebody can explain it better than i can, that would be neat, but according to his website:

"Middle class families will see their taxes cut – and no family making less than $250,000 will see their taxes increase. The typical middle class family will receive well over $1,000 in tax relief under the Obama plan, and will pay tax rates that are 20% lower than they faced under President Reagan. According to the Tax Policy Center, the Obama plan provides three times as much tax relief for middle class families as the McCain plan"



maybe i'm just being naive, but in my book, there's very little about making over $250,000/year that "fucking sucks". i'm in law school, i'm going to graduate with over $100,000 of nondischargeable student loan debt, and i'm going to graduate into a recession. even without a recession, my prospects for a good job were never very bright; there are far more law school grads than there are well-paying lawyer jobs out there, and my school is ranked around 80 in the nation and dropping (generally you want to be in the top 50 to have a chance, top 14 if you want to be comfortable).

making over $250,000 a year and "suffering" under the obama tax proposal is kind of at the bottom of my list of headaches.

celebrities will be taxed, as long as they don't cheat. don't worry about that.

So the 3% increase offsets the 20% decrease.

by the way, anyone, if i am wrong about everything i'm saying, please, someone step in and correct me (documad, hal9000, travesty......nofenders?), because this is the understanding with which i shall be voting

I wasn't aware the increase is only 3%. That is actually a lot lower than I think my ignorant greedy family realizes. Ha.

You've made a lot of great points, I kind of wish I read this before the "debate with family members" at my parents house last night.

I think I learned more in these three posts, than in all three debates.

So the 3% increase will offset the 20% decrease? ...I am sure the math magicians know what they are doing.

Don't fret Bob ...with Obama's plan you will have the extra cash to pay off that school debt, in a 100 years =)

and you're welcome, it was my families pleasure =)

I kid. Don't get hostile.

[Dorothy Wood]

dear bob, please marry me.

[Documad]

So from what I have gathered from individuals I know who make over 250k (my parents, brothers, co-workers and my current sex partner) is that there is a trickle effect that will hurt the economy to offset higher taxes for the rich.

and these items came up ... Less charitable contributions, layoffs, less spending, lower bonuses ....etc....there were more, but from what I gathered it is less money into the system.

Rich people know how to work around his plan ...but all I see is the economy and jobs being hurt by this plan.

So let me just throw this out there ....all of you don't even matter in this plan anyway ...your taxes are going to remain the same....

so who is gaining in this plan really?

This is what republican politicians always say. Have you really not heard of trickle down economics? Just google it or wiki it. We're only talking about the history of this country since 1980. This is what gives us record deficits.

How can people be so fucking stupid. (EDIT: Skye's friends, not Skye) Honestly. I don't expect people to understand what happened in France in the 1800s but the USA in the 1980s, how hard is that?

And can we say it another hundred times: The proposed tax increase on high earners would still leave them at a lower tax rate than they had when their beloved Reagan was president. :rolleyes:

The wealth in this country is more concentrated at the top of the income scale (not the people who know who make over $250,000, but the people in the top 1/2 % than at any time since the gilded age/robber barons. We're not trying to dismantle the capitalist system. We just want things to be ever so slightly more balanced.

And by the way, tell your friends that their businesses benefit because of the things their taxes buy. They get a better educated and healthier workforce. And we all spend less money on emergency medical care and correctional facilities.

[DroppinScience]

Bob you idiot! Obama is a closet Marxist out to fleece those hard-working, suffering rich people and give all their earnings to those lazy, slacker poor people and welfare queens who are just gonna spend their tax cut on booze and cigarettes.

Joe the Plumber is going to eat Ramen noodles for the rest of his life.

[Documad]

I swear, our country is doomed. We're a nation of dumbasses. What do they teach people in school these days?

And we've never had easier access to information. I mean, when I was a youngster I had to go to a library to look things up.

[DroppinScience]

And we've never had easier access to information. I mean, when I was a youngster I had to go to a library to look things up.

Easy access to information, sure. But what comes with that is very easy access to disinformation.

[King PSYZ]

So from what I have gathered from individuals I know who make over 250k (my parents, brothers, co-workers and my current sex partner) is that there is a trickle effect that will hurt the economy to offset higher taxes for the rich.

and these items came up ... Less charitable contributions, layoffs, less spending, lower bonuses ....etc....there were more, but from what I gathered it is less money into the system.

Rich people know how to work around his plan ...but all I see is the economy and jobs being hurt by this plan.

So let me just throw this out there ....all of you don't even matter in this plan anyway ...your taxes are going to remain the same....

so who is gaining in this plan really?

The US Budget is the real bennefactor here. Because before Bush's tax cut charity plan for the rich, we had a surplus in our yearly budget. In plain english, the US was turning a profit... That means the deficit was being ground down.

Had those tax levels been un touched, well for all we know the current financial meltdown may have never happened. Maybe the complete and utter failure of a decent response to Hurricaine Katrina might have been avoided. Maybe if nothing else our national debt wouldn't have doubled in just 8 years.

It's stunning to me that anyone thinks paying taxes is beneath them or something for other, less intelligent people to pay. It's a damn fine reason to go with a flat tax rate. If you go to a store regardless if you're dirt poor or a millionaire you both pay the same sales tax rate, why not apply that to income?

If eveyone had a flat tax they could actually take LESS from everyone because they'd have more coming in. REASONABLE deductions should be allowed, but only when it comes to income adjustment. Because things like driving a full size SUV shouldn't be rewarded with a tax break.

[QueenAdrock]

Rob, were you this mad when Clinton did the same thing in 1993?

Bill signed the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993, which provided tax cuts for 15 million low income families and raised taxes on the wealthiest 2% of Americans, much like Obama is suggesting.

From what I remember, he left office with a surplus. And I don't believe you've ever attacked Bill for being a "socialist." Why not?

2 pages later, and this still isn't answered....

[DroppinScience]

2 pages later, and this still isn't answered....

Don't hold your breath.

[RobMoney$]

wow... just wow

You know what, you're living in a fucking fantasy world now. Your hatred of Obama and everything he stands for has finally broken your fragile psyche...

So by your own account nobody should pay taxes? Did I say that? NO.

Awesome! Hey everyone, Rob says nobody should steal our cash damn it! why does the government need our charity handouts to pay for the military, roads, schools, police, fire departments, national guard, VA hospitals, Fort Knox, the Hoover Dam and other public works projects, national parks, goverment employees (you know the president, govenors, senators, aides, representitives, etc), social security, medicare/caid, FAA, INS, FEMA, CIA, FBI, FDA, ATF, none of it. Fuck those dudes! Why can't they work hard like the guy making MORE THAN A QUARTER OF A MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR WHO NOW HAS TO PAY AN EXTRA 3% ON THAT AMMOUNT OVER A QUARTER OF A MILLION DOLLARS.

Maybe if you quit spending my friends money and concentrated on making some of your own you'd be better off in life. What are you a fucking lot boy at a car dealer, right? ...the fuck outta here with your broke ass.

Jesus Christ people, you know how hard it is to make a living scraping by with a mere QUARTER A MILLION DOLLARS IN PROFIT OVER AND ABOVE OPERATING COSTS, MAINTINENCE, PAYROLL, INVENTORY, BUILDING LEASE, PERMITS, ETC.? It's fucking rough alright, just trust me, cause you loosers sure won't ever live that hard life since you got it easy being pussy liberals going to college off my friend's hard earned 3% over and above $250,000 in profit.

It must be nice to think you have a right to spend other people's money. Too bad you don't. If you think Obama's plan to tax and spend and create a bunch of new entitlements is the right course of action at this point in time of financil crisis, then you're the one who's the dolt.


Rob, you're a fucking dolt. Yes that's a personal attack. You're batshit fucking crazy. You simply cannot accept a black man will be the next president of the united states can you? You went from a full on dem supporting Hillary Clinton a mere few months ago while she split the party in two and was pushing for MANY OF THE SAME THINGS YOU DERIDE OBAMA FOR... You honestly think that Hillary wouldn't bring back taxes with pre Bush levels? You know the tax levels HER HUSBAND put into effect... You think she wouldn't be pushing for an even more SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE REFORM? You think she wouldn't also push for all these things and more "liberal" points? Give me a fucking break.

OMG ROBMONEY'S A RACIST IF HE ISN'T VOTING FOR OBAMA!! Give ME a fucking break.
Hillary nor Bill ever had plans to redistribute the wealth. Yes, Bill raised taxes, but while creating some new entitlement programs HE DID SO WITH A BUDGET SURPLUS, NOT IN THE MIDDLE OF A GLOBAL ECONOMIC MELTDOWN YOU DUMBASSES.
His plan was, and let me quote "to balance the budget in ten years because the pain we'd inflict on our elderly, our students, and our economy in the GOP 7-year plan just isn't worth it." - William Jefferson Clinton
His priority first and foremost was to balance the enormous deficit Bush1 left this country with, not to give everything he could to the poor at the expense of the rich, and be damned the budget like Obama. He had everyone's intrest at heart including the rich.
He didn't pander to the poorer 95% in a blantant vote-grab attempt. He thought beyond the old Democratic cry of tax & spend. He promised to cut taxes on the middle class rather than the rich, not cut them for the poor and raise them for the rich to offset.
Clinton created jobs, not handouts.

Let me say this here and now, anyone comparing the Clintons to Obama in future questions to me, expect to be ignored because I refuse to acknowledge such foolishness.

You're imaginary friend making a killing in the resturaunt biz off the corpse of his dead grandmother is just that... imaginary.

That was necessary.

The food industry is a near impossible nut to crack, margins in anything but booze are slim to none and most opperate at a razor thin budget.

He doesn't even have a liquor license, it's BYOB so he isn't making anything from liquor.

A fucking thunderstorm on a Friday or Saturday night could put some resturaunts behind on their lease... So for someone to just happen into the biz and a few years later be pulling in OVER A QUARTER MILLION DOLLARS IN PROFIT is bullshit.

He took the money he got from one property and used it to buy another. He owns the property outright asshole. I guess you're a fucking expert on the restaurant biz, but suck at reading comprenhension, huh?

Is he running a brothel or a cocaine opperation in these places? Because there is no way in hell he's pulling that much in PROFIT. Because unless he's borderline retarded he's going to deduct from earnings upkeep, lease, payroll, inventory, operating costs, etc. and to have that much left over is unheard of. Plus I'd love to see the mom and pop small resturaunt under an apartment support 100 employees... More like 15-20 at best.

I said he went through probably a hundred employees over several years before he found someone he could trust enough with the money before he could take some time off every once in a while. He employs probably two dozen people at a time.

Learn to fucking read asshole


Not to even get into the fact that the tax "hike" was in refrence to individuals and that Obama has pledged to help ensure more small and middle sized business' get established by making it easier to start and maintain their business.

You call it stealing, I call it about fucking time. I am tired of paying 20-30% of my income to taxes and social security to watch the nation's richest pay NOTHING... ZERO, ZILCH, NADA NUNCA.

I'm glad you feel entitled to spend upwards of 39% my friends' money because you don't like how your 26-30% is being spent. Fuck You

In summation, go fuck yourself.


Thank You, and go fuck yourself too!

Rob, you should address this.


I wish I had the time to sit at the computer and adress every question that was thrown at me, no matter how many times I answer the same question. Fuck it, Psyzmac's got all the answers. He even knows how much my buddy makes. He's a fucking financial genius, why would he need any answers from me?

[Knuckles]

I wish I had the time to sit at the computer and adress every question that was thrown at me, no matter how many times I answer the same question. Fuck it, Psyzmac's got all the answers. He even knows how much my buddy makes. He's a fucking financial genius, why would he need any answers from me?

Rob, you do understand why people are wondering if Obama's race has something to do with your backing McCain, right?

[RobMoney$]

Only if you think that facts matter. Only if you like to hear the truth instead of lies and bullshit. The guy didn't lie about the plumbing license. He's just the typical asshole who breaks the law every day and he and the business he works for hurt other small businesses that actually follow the law.

Does Joe need a license if he isn't the owner of the company? If not, then what law was he breaking?
Technically he's just an apprentice. Did he ever claim to be a licensed plumber? If his boss, the owner didn't have a license than he's breaking the law. But this is all just politically motivated to attack Joe & the GOP anyway. There are plenty of contractors who don't have a license for one reason or another. That's mostly political too. I mean what's the requirements to get a plumbing license, a couple of hundred dollars to the local government would be my guess. It's bullshit.

I get letters from those businesses. They get pissed off at assholes like Joe and his boss. Joe's boss probably hasn't been paying into work comp either because when fly by night companies break one law they tend to break them all. But that's my personal axe to grind. :p But Joe did lie about being a potential candidate to buy a business.

No, he didn't. The story goes that his boss and him have discussed Joe taking over soon when the boss/owner retires. That's where he was coming from when he asked about buying the company. But whether a conversation between these two ever took place or not about buying the business would be impossible to prove.

As for your friend. Tell him that he can continue to sleep at night. The first $250,000 he earns each year (after he takes all those itemized deductions and writes off all the living expenses that I can't write off because I'm not self-employed and writes off all his losses from side ventures), well that first $250,000 will be taxed AT EXACTLY THE SAME RATE. Right? It's only the amount he makes over the $250,000 that gets taxed at a higher rate. How much does your friend make? If he makes $300,000 a year, he pays he exact same tax rate on $250,000 and a slightly higher rate on the $50,000. And do you know what? I'm FINE with that. People who are successful are generally paying less than their share, and they've benefitted from things infrastructure that has been mostly paid for by people who make a lot less.

I understand that the amount up to 250k stays at 36% and that only the amount over that will be at 39%. I never claimed any different.
I would never ask him how much he makes, and I'm sure he wouldn't tell me if I did ask.
I do know how much he paid for his home, and he paid it in full.
I do know exactly how much the restaurant has brought in on several Saturday nights because I use to work there when he first opened and needed the help. I also know his accountant and we've all joked about the tax bracket my friend is in. I feel quite comfortable assuming it's in excess of 250k.

[DroppinScience]

Rob, you do understand why people are wondering if Obama's race has something to do with your backing McCain, right?

Knuckles, you've long since debunked (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=1052906&postcount=8) those "RobMoney is a racist" rumors.

[RobMoney$]

Rob, you do understand why people are wondering if Obama's race has something to do with your backing McCain, right?


So if I don't vote for Obama, it must be because I'm a racist, right?
That's bullshit.

I've posted hundreds of posts in this forum criticizing Obama for dozens of different reasons. Find me one that has anything to do with Obama's race.
I challenge anyone to. All of the Obama supporters are the one's bringing race into the debate. I'm the only one who isn't.

Isn't it just as racist to vote for him because of his race?
If so, then who's the real racists in here?

[RobMoney$]

Knuckles, you've long since debunked (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=1052906&postcount=8) those "RobMoney is a racist" rumors.


Hey Lambert, do you have anything original or of substance to add to this?

If not then shut up with your smug remarks.

BTW, get your own joke and quit stealing Knucks'.

[RobMoney$]

2 pages later, and this still isn't answered....

Don't hold your breath.


Hillary nor Bill ever had plans to redistribute the wealth. Yes, Bill raised taxes, but while creating some new entitlement programs HE DID SO WITH A BUDGET SURPLUS, NOT IN THE MIDDLE OF A GLOBAL ECONOMIC MELTDOWN YOU DUMBASSES.
His plan was, and let me quote "to balance the budget in ten years because the pain we'd inflict on our elderly, our students, and our economy in the GOP 7-year plan just isn't worth it." - William Jefferson Clinton
His priority first and foremost was to balance the enormous deficit Bush1 left this country with, not to give everything he could to the poor at the expense of the rich, and be damned the budget like Obama. He had everyone's intrest at heart including the rich.
He didn't pander to the poorer 95% in a blantant vote-grab attempt. He thought beyond the old Democratic cry of tax & spend. He promised to cut taxes on the middle class rather than the rich, not cut them for the poor and raise them for the rich to offset.
Clinton created jobs, not handouts.

Let me say this here and now, anyone comparing the Clintons to Obama in future questions to me, expect to be ignored because I refuse to acknowledge such foolishness.


Fuck both of your smug asses.

[yeahwho]

So if I don't vote for Obama, it must be because I'm a racist, right?
That's bullshit.

I've posted hundreds of posts in this forum criticizing Obama for dozens of different reasons. Find me one that has anything to do with Obama's race.
I challenge anyone to.

Isn't it just as racist to vote for him because of his race?
If so, then who's the real racists in here?

Have you've decided that re-instating the tax policies Bill Clinton had in place will not work, the war in Iraq is winnable and bailouts for corporate interests seems like a viable reasonable option.

What is it about John McCain and his inability to be a decent man on a national level that appeals to you? Do you realize the fallout from all of this is damaging to our Country? That in the end no matter who wins, the next four years will be filled with animosity due to the vile being spewed today?

[RobMoney$]

Have you've decided that re-instating the tax policies Bill Clinton had in place will not work, the war in Iraq is winnable and bailouts for corporate interests seems like a viable reasonable option.

I don't believe using Bill Clinton's plans from almost 20 years ago can be effectively applied to the financial problems that we face today.
We need a plan for today and I don't think Obama has a clue of what that plan should be.

I don't know if Iraq is winnable or not. But I am 100% convinced that pulling out too soon would be disasterous. Patreaus is for staying, then I believe we should stay. I don't see what is so wrong with keeping a limited force in the most unstable region in the world?
I do believe that progress is being made in Iraq in the hearts and minds of the Iraq youth. They don't hate America, it's the older people there that hold a negative image of us. We need to show the youth of that country that we are there to help and continue to foster a friendly relationship with them.
We pull out of Iraq now and things will go right back to the way they were within days. So I am adamant about not pulling everyone out too soon.

As for the bailouts, why are you looking at them as a republican issue? The Democrats made that possible just as much, if not more so, than the GOP did.
The first thing that should have happened is every single CEO form every bank that recieved a bailout should have been forced to be fired. You failed at your job as CEO of this bank, you are fired.
I'm not sure what else I would have done differently in the bailouts, but I don't see how you can blame just one side really.

What is it about John McCain and his inability to be a decent man on a national level that appeals to you? Do you realize the fallout from all of this is damaging to our Country? That in the end no matter who wins, the next four years will be filled with animosity due to the vile being spewed today?

His not being a decent man on a national level is stretching things a bit I think. Again, we can't sit and blame one side for negativity. The Dems are just as guilty.

In the end, I'd rather have someone who is the dominant person in a room full of world leaders than someone who wants to cow-tow and appease everyone. The minute you show weakness to a foe, you lose.

[yeahwho]

[COLOR=red]Let me say this here and now, anyone comparing the Clintons to Obama in future questions to me, expect to be ignored because I refuse to acknowledge such foolishness.


Fuck both of your smug asses.

Do Not Click This Link (http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/hillary_clinton_tax_reform.htm)

[Knuckles]

So if I don't vote for Obama, it must be because I'm a racist, right?
That's bullshit.

I've posted hundreds of posts in this forum criticizing Obama for dozens of different reasons. Find me one that has anything to do with Obama's race.
I challenge anyone to. All of the Obama supporters are the one's bringing race into the debate. I'm the only one who isn't.

Isn't it just as racist to vote for him because of his race?
If so, then who's the real racists in here?

Rob, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you've been in hot water around here before because of alleged racial remarks, right?

That added to your overnight political turnaround might seem a bit fishy to people, don't you think?

[RobMoney$]

Yeah. Because someone was harrassing and threatening my girlfriend on here on a daily basis for several months, publicly and more importantly privately. It even went beyond the spectrum of this MB altogether. The moderators decided to turn a blind eye to it the whole time and I called that person the "N" word in a moment of anger.

...and here we are 3 years later and I'm still being harrassed for it and Aimee still refuses to post here because of the level of ass-hattery that the people here are capable of.

So I guess all that somehow means I'm too racist to vote for Obama. OK.

[King PSYZ]

I wish I had the time to sit at the computer and adress every question that was thrown at me, no matter how many times I answer the same question. Fuck it, Psyzmac's got all the answers. He even knows how much my buddy makes. He's a fucking financial genius, why would he need any answers from me?

How dare you claim I have no reading comprehension when you can't obviously read or understand anything?

I like how you glossed over the impossibility of someone to pull in over $250,000 IN PROFIT with two small resturaunts... So your story is still horseshit.

I love how you started off by saying you never said nobody should pay taxes and in your next response tell me I should get a better job because I am looking for a handout. And for your information I generally would take home an average of $1k a week after deductions before the economy ate itself, but thanks for playing douchebag...

And Rob, you're not a racist because you won't vote for Obama. You were a racist long before that and anyone who's been around here any length of time knows all about it. This little tirade about how you'll ignore any connections between the Clintons and Obama shows just how far you've shoved your head up your own ass. More so when it's been spelled out for you that Obama is returning taxes to Clinton year levels, and if you don't think Clinton had anything to do with helping the middle class and strengthening social services you're sorely misguided too.

You probablly are lucky to pull 35k a year doing whatever menial job you've found yourself in and are nowhere close to this 250k+ figure you love spewing so give it up. We all know you will never vote for Obama, we knew that before he even ran...

I have already voted and I am proud of my vote.

You've been nothing but a condecending dick for the last several months and your decent into madness is easily followed from the verocity of your posts over the last several months.

And if Joe the Plumber or Dick the Diner owner can't bear an extra $900 in taxes a year then they need to give up the coke habit, because they should have more than enough to swing that.

I already broke down your dittohead bullshit evaluation of the Obama tax plan in another thread and if you honestly think using the rebalanced tax dollars to build roads, bridges, and schools while hiring local contractors and creating 10s of thousands of jobs is the redistribution of wealth then go move somewhere without taxes. Because that's what taxes are for and have always been for.

But thanks for your tirade, now please clean the spit off the monitor.

[RobMoney$]

Coming from someone who's been banned himself you'd think you'd show a little more respect.

Listen to me dude, I don't give a flying fuck if you believe anything I post. I don't care how much money you make spit shining rims down at the car-lot.
I never claimed to make over 250k, I said a friend of mine did. I shared the story because I thought his story related to "Joe the Plumber's" story pretty well. Again, you're reading comprehension is for shit.

You sit there and hurl all kinds of insults at me, my friend, and his deceased grandmother and you wanna paint me as the unstable one?
HAHAHAAA that's fucking rich.

Go vote for Obama. I don't really expect to say anything that's going to change your mind. I expect him to win. You're the one who started this personal attack on me. You're the one who's progressively losing it.

[QueenAdrock]

He promised to cut taxes on the middle class rather than the rich, not cut them for the poor and raise them for the rich to offset.


Actually, his plan cut taxes for the poorest 15 million Americans and raised it for the richest 2%. He also gave tax cuts to the middle class, as well. This "radical redistribution of wealth" that Obama offers is pretty much the same as Bill proposed. During an economic crisis, the rich aren't the ones suffering. They should most definitely be the ones to help out the most, they're the ones who can.

However, I can see why you won't respond to people bringing up the similarities between the Clintons and Obama. I mean, it just makes you out to be a hypocrite if you say you hate Obama yet would have whole-heartedly supported Hillary, who pretty much had the same plan as Obama.



Fuck both of your smug asses.

You are absolutely adorable when people get under your skin. ;)

[Randetica]

i dont get and never got why rob gets so much shit, it's like people read in his posts what they want to read and not read what he actually writes

[Dharma]

i dont get and never got why rob gets so much shit, it's like people read in his posts what they want to read and not read what he actually writes

I have always respected the fact that he stands up for what he believes in.

I think he likes it though, being the only McCain supporter in the Political Forum.

When people resort to slander though, all credibility goes out the window.

That statement is for everyone.

Its just not necessary.

[Randetica]

you absolutely know it.

[saz]

Yeah. Because someone was harrassing and threatening my girlfriend on here on a daily basis for several months, publicly and more importantly privately. It even went beyond the spectrum of this MB altogether. The moderators decided to turn a blind eye to it the whole time and I called that person the "N" word in a moment of anger.

it doesn't matter, there's no reason nor excuse to resort to that kind of vile level, regardless if your girl was being harrassed or not. i've been harrassed before on an internet message board by a gun nut freak, and i just decided to walk away instead of lowering myself to their level. the bottom line is that you will eventually resort to being nasty and personal with people who see things differently, especially queenadrock, droppin etc and there is no excuse for it. you come across as very angry and reactionary and it should be expected that people are going to assume that you're not supporting obama because he is black; especially considering that he is not only hillary's ideological twin and they support the same economic, social and foreign policies, but also given your history on the board here with using a very racist and disgusting term.

[Dharma]

I must have been on MB hiatus.

Who exactly was the N word directed at?

[Bob]

tone capone i think

[RobMoney$]

it doesn't matter, there's no reason nor excuse to resort to that kind of vile level, regardless if your girl was being harrassed or not. i've been harrassed before on an internet message board by a gun nut freak, and i just decided to walk away instead of lowering myself to their level. the bottom line is that you will eventually resort to being nasty and personal with people who see things differently, especially queenadrock, droppin etc and there is no excuse for it. you come across as very angry and reactionary and it should be expected that people are going to assume that you're not supporting obama because he is black; especially considering that he is not only hillary's ideological twin and they support the same economic, social and foreign policies, but also given your history on the board here with using a very racist and disgusting term.


Well sazi, if Obama and Hillary were such twins, then tell me why you chose Obama?
Quite frankly I'm not really concerned with your opinion on what I said. I said it and I deal with the consequences of what I said.
I can deal with people harrassing me, that's obviously NEVER been a problem. It's another thing when someone starts fucking with someone I care about on this MB, and even took out to other places on the internet outside of this MB.
Aimee had herself banned from this place to escape the harrassment of Tone Capone and he searched her out in other places on the internet to continue harrassing her. He said some seriously fucked up shit to several girls on this MB like Beth and Cosmo.
It's easy to say "just log off the computer". I'm an aggressive person, it's hard for me to allow some piece of crap to harrass someone I care about and just walk away from it. That's just not me man.

You can think whatever you want, overdramaticize the fact that I said the "N" word, whatever.
It was a mistake I said in a moment of anger. It doesn't define me.

[DroppinScience]

And not only is Rob guilty of hurling racial slurs towards other members of the board (that alone should prove he is a racist or has some deep-seated racial biases that he is unwilling to admit even to himself), but have you seen the ways he's actually attacked Obama? He's very sneaky about it (unlike some of his friends at McCain-Palin rallies who carry monkeys with Obama stickers), but I can read between the lines.

He'll make unfounded posts about the allegation of a video where Michelle Obama called white people "whitey" (even though such a thing never surfaced). He'll post YouTube videos of out of context quotes from Obama's book that "proves" he's a racist towards white people (when in reality those are only his reflections about growing up bi-racial and navigating within the white and black cultures) and acts all outraged. He even posted that disgusting post from Michelle Malkin's blog that was intended to incite fear in white people that black homeless people in Ohio were registering to vote. He's even glib about modern-day racism in America (he thinks civil rights are unimportant for a President to spend a lot of time dwelling over... this speaks volumes).

If he himself is not saying racist things, he seems more than glad to quote sources that are using veiled racism.

Generally speaking, Obama's race does not come up very often when people on this board speak positively about him. However, Rob comes in here and goes: "You're just wanting to vote for a black guy to make yourselves feel good and show how not racist you are!" Where does this even come from? If no one else is discussing it, obviously the fact that Obama is black weighs heavily on his mind and in some way, he's got a problem with this and seems to somehow resent how "easy" it has been for him to be black and so successful.

If we were to take a vote on whether Rob is a racist, I'd vote "yes." It should have been obvious when he called Tone a "nigger" even if it was just in a fit of anger (that happens a lot, since he wants to punch "campus fuckfaces" in the throat), but all the other little things add up too.

[RobMoney$]

Thanks for your dime store psychological anaylisis.
As if you're an unbiased opinion.

I find it funny that dorothy can say "I don't know, the one guy scares me, so I'm voting for the other guy", and no one has a problem with it.

If someone said something like that about Obama you'd jump all over it.

[Bob]

Well sazi, if Obama and Hillary were such twins, then tell me why you chose Obama?
Quite frankly I'm not really concerned with your opinion on what I said. I said it and I deal with the consequences of what I said.
I can deal with people harrassing me, that's obviously NEVER been a problem. It's another thing when someone starts fucking with someone I care about on this MB, and even took out to other places on the internet outside of this MB.
Aimee had herself banned from this place to escape the harrassment of Tone Capone and he searched her out in other places on the internet to continue harrassing her. He said some seriously fucked up shit to several girls on this MB like Beth and Cosmo.
It's easy to say "just log off the computer". I'm an aggressive person, it's hard for me to allow some piece of crap to harrass someone I care about and just walk away from it. That's just not me man.

You can think whatever you want, overdramaticize the fact that I said the "N" word, whatever.
It was a mistake I said in a moment of anger. It doesn't define me.

i dunno, calling someone a nigger in anger is actually a pretty dramatic thing, i'm not sure that anyone's overdramatizing it.

also sazi's not an obama fan, i think he's said that a few times

[RobMoney$]

i dunno, calling someone a nigger in anger is actually a pretty dramatic thing, i'm not sure that anyone's overdramatizing it.

also sazi's not an obama fan, i think he's said that a few times

To be bringing it up 3 years later, I think it is being overdramaticized. People do less time in prison for assault.


Sazi isn't even from the US, is he?

Well then I ask you Bob, why'd you choose Obama over Hillary?
seriously.

[Bob]

i'm sexist

[yeahwho]

I know nobody wants to know why I chose Barack Obama over Hillary, but I'm going to tell you anyway.

Obama is more electable. He has less baggage than Hillary (Bill Clinton) and a better sense of the word fairness. He's also much more inspirational than Hillary.

[QueenAdrock]

I'd agree with yeahwho on that point. I thought Obama had a better chance of rallying all of the Democrats and independents behind him than Hillary. I thought he was more charismatic.

I liked Hillary and I was torn between the two of them for a while. Then when I saw how nasty she could be, and how she pulled out the fear card with that "3 AM" card, it just didn't sit right with me. I decided on Obama.

The big difference is, I do think a lot of us would back the Democratic nominee regardless. We never liked McCain. If it came down between Hillary and McCain, I'd vote Hillary in a heartbeat...mostly because yeah, she is ideologically pretty close to Obama. I preferred Obama, but I'd have no hangups voting for her. It does seem odd that some of the Hillary supporters decided on McCain, because he's pretty much opposite of her message.

[Bob]

i would've been alright with either of them, honestly. i liked obama more because i didn't like the way hillary conducted her campaign. it was very mccain-esque (or bush 2000-esque). running vicious attack ads against your own party in a tight race, saying shit you're going to have to deal with having said when you need to endorse him after he wins the primary, going down kicking and screaming, disobeying the agreed-upon party rules and then crying foul when obama wanted to enforce them, i didn't like any of that.

plus obama's smile is so dreamy

[Documad]

No one asked me either, but I preferred Hillary Clinton. I thought she was more electable. I also thought she would make a better president. I thought that Obama wasn't as ready. I knew that this racist shit was coming. I knew that he wasn't as good at debates as Hillary. I knew she was a fighter.

But here's the thing. When she was out, Obama was my second choice. That's because they stand for the exact same thing on every issue I can think of. Neither one of them is my ideal candidate. They're both too conservative for me on some issues. They're both too tight with corporate types. It's not just that I'm a democrat, but that's part of it. After 8 years of neocon hell, I'm desperate for a democrat in the white house.

The good news is that I was wrong about Obama. He's turned into a better debater. It's still not his strong suit but he improved because of the practice he got with Hillary. He's run a campaign that's about as perfect as it could be. The man is unflappable, even in the face of this racist bullshit. I shouldn't have been surprised. For him to go to Harvard and make editor in chief of law review, he has to be able to swallow a lot of bullshit without ever showing a temper. I could barely handle being a minor editor at a crappy law school. :p

I was probably wrong about Hillary too. She disappointed me. She and Bill acted like they were entitled to the job. It pissed me off. And it sure took them long enough to get behind Obama. :rolleyes: Plus all Bill's financial shenanigans are coming to light and they would have exploded if she has been the candidate.

So here I sit, sick to my stomach over whether Obama will get elected. I started to cry while driving in my car today at the very idea that we might pull this off. Imagine the US with a black president. Imagine all those old paintings on old walls at the white house and some day this painting of a black guy with a funny name will be on that wall. Imagine the impact that will have on little kids who aren't white and who have funny names.

And if this really happens, then I will get back some faith in my fellow americans.

[King PSYZ]

Well I did my part today and cast my ballot for Obama, so if Nevada goes to Barack I helped.

[Randetica]

You can think whatever you want, overdramaticize the fact that I said the "N" word, whatever.
It was a mistake I said in a moment of anger. It doesn't define me.

thats how i always saw it and that alone doesnt make you a racist but i didnt read all of your posts THAT clearly so i cant really tell if youre a racist or not but i dont think so...





oh wait! you didnt vote for obama??!! holy shit wheres my 'RACIST' stamp!!!


it's actually a wonder that youre still that calm, i know i would be way worse in such situations

[RobMoney$]

Thanks Randi,
When people get into a debate with me, it's the easiest thing for someone to bring up to use against me. It's just ridiculous at this point.


Anyway, I was intereseted in everyone's opinion on why they choose Obama over Hillary if they truley believed they were identical. The differences were strak to say the least. Just the fact that the race between them got as emotional as it did proves that, and to now try to paint them as twins is an absolute joke.

Anyone who thinks Obama, a person who served less than a year in the senate before starting his campaign for the Presidency and had zero foreign policy experience, zero budget management experience, and zero executive experience was more electable than Hillary, a person with tons more experience in all of those catageories, not to mention more support with the democratic base, (blue-collar workers) and more connections in their own party to draw from for advice and cabinet nominations.

That's a pretty tough pill to swallow and I'd have to call your decision making suspect to say the least..

[QueenAdrock]

How did they differ on the issues? That's ultimately what gets my vote in the presidential election. I didn't see a difference between their policies (including their tax plans), so I went with the person I liked and respected more.

[RobMoney$]

Well I did my part today and cast my ballot for Obama, so if Nevada goes to Barack I helped.


YAAAAAY Here's a COOKIE (http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i64/cruzrincon/tumblr/2254309656_1b4b36664d_b.jpg)!

[RobMoney$]

How did they differ on the issues? That's ultimately what gets my vote in the presidential election. I didn't see a difference between their policies (including their tax plans), so I went with the person I liked and respected more.


On which issue?

Go youtube an Obama-Hillary Debate and see for yourself.

EDIT: Here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxn5oW8BcDU&feature=related)
Obama - Let's raise taxes on people making over 200-250k
Hillary - Let's create jobs and put people to work. I don't want to raise taxes on anyone!

[ms.peachy]

Anyone who thinks Obama, a person who served less than a year in the senate before starting his campaign for the Presidency and had zero foreign policy experience, zero budget management experience, and zero executive experience was more electable than Hillary, a person with tons more experience in all of those catageories, not to mention more support with the democratic base, (blue-collar workers) and more connections in their own party to draw from for advice and cabinet nominations.

That's a pretty tough pill to swallow and I'd have to call your decision making suspect to say the least..

Well, you can be as suspicious of my decision making as you like, I really don't care. The reason I felt Obama to be more electable, despite not having all of those attributes of Hilary's that you mentioned, was that he did not come with all of the massive amounts of baggage attached to the Clintons. I felt - still feel, rightly or wrongly - that he has a better ability to connect with and inspire people to seek out what is best in their own nature than Hilary does. That is in no way meant to be a swipe at Hilary - I would have been happy to have her as the nominee as well, I respect her quite a bit and think she is an amazing woman in many ways. And I personally never felt the race between them to be as 'heated' as the media seemed to want us to believe it was, and the comments of others here kind of confirm for me that this is true for many people. So yes, Hilary had (has) an awful lot going for her, and who knows what the future holds for her in terms of public service. At this time though, in this election, after much consideration I decided the candidate I wanted to support most was Barack Obama. As I said, I really don't care if you or anybody else find that to be a reflection of questionable judgement or not. I am confident that I educated myself about the candidates and the greater context, and that I have given mature and reasonable thought to the issues, and that's all that's important, really.

[Knuckles]

So here I sit, sick to my stomach over whether Obama will get elected. I started to cry while driving in my car today at the very idea that we might pull this off. Imagine the US with a black president. Imagine all those old paintings on old walls at the white house and some day this painting of a black guy with a funny name will be on that wall. Imagine the impact that will have on little kids who aren't white and who have funny names.

And if this really happens, then I will get back some faith in my fellow americans.


Documad, I absolutely love this.





Randy, I know you probably don't understand how powerful the N word is over here. Trust me though, if a white person uses that word in anger towards a black person over here it is completely unacceptable, no matter what the circumstances.

I'm sure if Tone Capone would have done those type of things to my girlfriend I would have said some choice things to him as well. But it wouldn't even have crossed my mind to call him n*****. Why? Because that's putting down a whole race of people. Not just one asshole.

When someone does something racist like that I won't forget it. It doesn't mean that I'll hate that person forever, though. I genuinely like Rob. I think his good attributes way outweigh his bad ones. In fact, if I ever go to Philly I would love to meet him. I bet we'd have a hell of a time bullshitting over a few beers.

Unfortunately though, his use of that word in anger has caused me to question the reasons behind his drastic political change. He hasn't been able to explain his overnight republican conversion in any way that seems logical to me. So I'm just trying to find a reason that makes sense for why he's not supporting Obama.

Racism? I guess it's possible.

[RobMoney$]

I've said this before, but I will rehash it for you knucks.

I was an adamant Hillary supporter. Once she lost, I spent the next few weeks trying to convince myself of a reason to support Obama after all of the holes I just spent the previous few months poking in his campaign.

I then found myself actually looking at both Obama and McCain and listening to what McCain's platform was, something I probably would not have done had Hillary been the nominee. I would have dismissed McCain immediatley just based on party lines.
I gave him a chance and found that I really didn't disagree with many of McCain's policies. The only mistake I made was not giving him or any republican a legitimite chance before that point.
I agree with McCain's stance on Iraq even more than I did Hillary's.

[Randetica]

Documad, I absolutely love this.





Randy, I know you probably don't understand how powerful the N word is over here. Trust me though, if a white person uses that word in anger towards a black person over here it is completely unacceptable, no matter what the circumstances.

I'm sure if Tone Capone would have done those type of things to my girlfriend I would have said some choice things to him as well. But it wouldn't even have crossed my mind to call him n*****. Why? Because that's putting down a whole race of people. Not just one asshole.

When someone does something racist like that I won't forget it. It doesn't mean that I'll hate that person forever, though. I genuinely like Rob. I think his good attributes way outweigh his bad ones. In fact, if I ever go to Philly I would love to meet him. I bet we'd have a hell of a time bullshitting over a few beers.

Unfortunately though, his use of that word in anger has caused me to question the reasons behind his drastic political change. He hasn't been able to explain his overnight republican conversion in any way that seems logical to me. So I'm just trying to find a reason that makes sense for why he's not supporting Obama.

Racism? I guess it's possible.

anger can do a lot to you and sometimes it makes you do or say those things that shouldnt be done or said, at some point of anger you cant think straight anymore

and i really cant tell if i would say the same thing to him in such a situation but maybe i would, if youre trying to hurt the ones i love then im trying everything to shut you up and to hit it where it hurts and that word just happens to be one of the strongest insults..

you people act like he goes around and calls all black people n***ers and high fives the KKKs or some shit but he just had a weak moment and i think what he did (light years ago) wasnt right but excuseable

while in my opinion what tone capone did (if it's true) seems way more unforgivable and ban worthy then rob's insult

[saz]

Well sazi, if Obama and Hillary were such twins, then tell me why you chose Obama?
Quite frankly I'm not really concerned with your opinion on what I said. I said it and I deal with the consequences of what I said.
I can deal with people harrassing me, that's obviously NEVER been a problem. It's another thing when someone starts fucking with someone I care about on this MB, and even took out to other places on the internet outside of this MB.
Aimee had herself banned from this place to escape the harrassment of Tone Capone and he searched her out in other places on the internet to continue harrassing her. He said some seriously fucked up shit to several girls on this MB like Beth and Cosmo.
It's easy to say "just log off the computer". I'm an aggressive person, it's hard for me to allow some piece of crap to harrass someone I care about and just walk away from it. That's just not me man.

You can think whatever you want, overdramaticize the fact that I said the "N" word, whatever.
It was a mistake I said in a moment of anger. It doesn't define me.

i've told you before, i am not an obama supporter. i'm supporting or rooting for nader. i'm also with mckinney and the greens. i even sympathize with bob barr and the libertarians, or at least think that conservatives should support barr, and not mccain.

i'm not being melodramatic about you using that term before, a term commonly used by lowlife biggots. anyways, i certainly hope it was a really, really bad mistake you made rob and that you weren't showing your true colours.

with that being said, i'd still wish you wouldn't be so mean, nasty, patronizing and wouldn't get so personal with others like droppin' and queenadrock. you can disagree with them all you want and argue, but when you begin to act like a harrasser, no one is going to want to read your posts nor consider your opinions.

[RobMoney$]

you can disagree with them all you want and argue, but when you begin to act like a harrasser, no one is going to want to read your posts nor consider your opinions.

I appreciate your willingness to not get caught up the RobMoney bum-rush that some seem to love getting in on whenever someone brings up the Tone Capone N-word stuff. And although I'll never be allowed to move foward from it it certain people's minds, I refuse to live in fear of offering an opinion here that someone may try to spin as evidence of me being racist. God forbid someone have a differing opinion than the majority.

I don't expect to change anyone's vote with any of the opinions I post. I guess I'm just trying to offer a different opinion that will make people take a good hard look at who they're voting for and be certain of their choice.
Neither of these guys walk on water, but some act as if they do and I'm trying to give tham a reality check.

[Documad]

you people act like he goes around and calls all black people n***ers and high fives the KKKs or some shit

You act like that sort of reprehensible conduct is what defines racism. You're wrong.

Racism is when you treat someone different based on skin color or national origin. You don't have to use bad names and burn crosses on lawns. In fact, the worst racism is the subtle, institutionalized kind. Sexism is similar. Sexism is when you treat someone different based upon gender. You don't have to call a woman foul names in order to be sexist.

My comment really has nothing to do with this thread, but I can't let that sort of thing pass without remarking on it.

[Documad]

Documad, I absolutely love this.

Thanks. :o

I am taking the morning off of work on the day after the election, because which ever way this thing goes, I'll be a mess.

[RobMoney$]

Racism is when you treat someone different based on skin color or national origin. You don't have to use bad names and burn crosses on lawns. In fact, the worst racism is the subtle, institutionalized kind. Sexism is similar. Sexism is when you treat someone different based upon gender. You don't have to call a woman foul names in order to be sexist.

Well there you go. I give everyone an equally hard time on here. :p



I am taking the morning off of work on the day after the election, because which ever way this thing goes, I'll be a mess.

I promise Doc, I'll send you an e-hug the morning after the election.

[Laver1969]

I gave him a chance and found that I really didn't disagree with many of McCain's policies. The only mistake I made was not giving him or any republican a legitimite chance before that point.
I agree with McCain's stance on Iraq even more than I did Hillary's.

Rob, I'm not attacking but I'm curious what policies don't you disagree with on McCain? I see nothing fresh or different than Bush's? I'd honestly take a good look at a Republican candidate if they offered a solid agenda of change. I certainly don't see that in McCain. Not to mention McCain just rubs me the wrong way...I don't if it's the facial expressions, the age, the crazy-eyes or what...but he just flat out gives me the heebee-jeebees. He did much better at the benefit dinner telling jokes...which also reminds that Bush would do great in a setting like that. But not running the country.

You've probably already answered this somewhere else on here. If so, you can just point me to the linkster.

[RobMoney$]

Obviously, I don't agree with his stance on abortion or gay marriage, but issues like the economy, Iraq, health care, and energy are far more important issues to me and I agree with him on all of them.

And I do believe he has a long history of representing change in the GOP.
I realize that he's had to cater to the GOP base recently in order to secure the nomination after several unsuccessful attempts of trying to run while bucking a lot of his party's issues (hence the Maverick moniker).
I just believe he's likely to buck the party line once he gets elected on issues such as R v. W. His history suggests that that's who he really is.

[QueenAdrock]

On which issue?

Go youtube an Obama-Hillary Debate and see for yourself.

EDIT: Here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxn5oW8BcDU&feature=related)
Obama - Let's raise taxes on people making over 200-250k
Hillary - Let's create jobs and put people to work. I don't want to raise taxes on anyone!

She says she doesn't want to raise your taxes, no, she just wants to go back to the 1990s - a euphemism for doing the same taxes Billy boy did. However, to replicate Bill's taxes, she'd have to raise it on the top 2% of the nation, and lower it for the lowest bracket...much like Obama is proposing. Look at her official platform. It sounds better to say "I want to go back to the 1990s regarding taxes, that was a time of prosperity" because it plays much better to independents and undecideds than her saying "I want to raise your taxes."

Other examples of Clinton saying she'd raise taxes:

In her speech, Mrs. Clinton said the tax hikes would help balance the federal budget. She has also said the increased revenues could help provide health care to uninsured Americans.

http://www.nysun.com/national/giuliani-laces-into-clinton-over-staggering-tax/55535/

CLINTON: I will let the taxes on people making more than $250,000 a year go back to the rates that they were paying in the 1990s.

http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/hillary_clinton_tax_reform.htm

Fifty-nine percent (59%) of American adults agree with New York Senator Hillary Clinton’s call to raise taxes on wealthy Americans.

...Thirty-four percent (34%) of Americans believe their own taxes will go up if Clinton is elected. That number increases to 45% among those who earn more than $60,000 a year and 52% among those earning upwards of $100,000 annually.
http://legacy.rasmussenreports.com/2007/April%20Dailies/ClintonTaxPlan.htm

Unfortunately, her website has been revamped and she no longer has the "on the issues" link anymore, which used to explain how she wanted to roll back the tax cuts and have the richer in society pay more, and cut taxes for the least wealthy.

Did you honestly believe she wouldn't raise anyone's taxes? She doesn't believe in the trickle-down theory of economics that the GOP does, that's why she's a Democrat. The Democratic platform has pretty much always been "More taxing for the rich, less for the poor." It's not unique to Obama at all, she adopted the same ideas.

She did have different ideas on what to do with the revenue, though that's pretty similar in many aspects to what Obama proposed too.

[RobMoney$]

So now that we've established that there's a clear difference between Obama and Hillary, let's move on to the next issue. What they wanted to use the increased taxes for.

Democrats as a party believe in higher taxes. So no surprise there that they're both for an increase.
She wants to raise them on the wealthiest 2%.
Obama wants to raise them for everyone over 200-250k. It's a moving target depending on what day you ask Obama.
That's significantly different.

Hillary wanted to use that extra revenue to create more jobs in areas like alternative energy.
Obama wants to use it to give to people paying little to no taxes at all.

[Dorothy Wood]

I find it funny that dorothy can say "I don't know, the one guy scares me, so I'm voting for the other guy", and no one has a problem with it.

If someone said something like that about Obama you'd jump all over it.


what kind of problem should people have with that?

[QueenAdrock]

Democrats as a party believe in higher taxes. So no surprise there that they're both for an increase.
She wants to raise them on the wealthiest 2%.
Obama wants to raise them for everyone over 200-250k. It's a moving target depending on what day you ask Obama.
That's significantly different.


Umm... the top 2% of the country earns 200-250K and above.
That's not significantly different, that's the same thing.

http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032007/hhinc/new06_000.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States


Hillary wanted to use that extra revenue to create more jobs in areas like alternative energy.
Obama wants to use it to give to people paying little to no taxes at all.

Obama also wants to create more jobs in areas like alternative energy - he plans on making 5 million new "green collar" jobs with the earned revenue.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy


Seriously...I implore you, look at what Hillary says versus Obama in-depth. There really isn't that much of a difference. That's why it's so confusing to see people make the huge leap to John McCain after previously supporting someone who was ideologically much, MUCH closer to Obama....

[funk63]

Racism is when you treat someone different based on skin color or national origin. You don't have to use bad names and burn crosses on lawns. In fact, the worst racism is the subtle, institutionalized kind. Sexism is similar. Sexism is when you treat someone different based upon gender. You don't have to call a woman foul names in order to be sexist.


Institutionalized racism? wtf is that?
What about when people who look a certain way, tend to act a certain way? Is it wrong to treat them a certain way?





But it wouldn't even have crossed my mind to call him n*****. Why? Because that's putting down a whole race of people.



people through that term racist around alot. calling someone a nigger cuz your mad isnt racism.
i heard the word nigger every 25 seconds in my high school. whats racist when someone from a different race says nigga (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQGklw7hyK0) and he gets in the news. If racism is so bad, and that word is so offensive, why use it? Why cant you just stop saying it and let it dissipate from americas lexicon. Ive called somebody a nigger before. A kid was trying to say I put pizza boxes in his car, then he tore my shirt and I got pissed off and said you fucking nigger and jacked him in his jaw. I dont mean I dislike all black people. I was pissed, I said a word. Call me a racist. I dont care.
Me, or anyone, saying nigger isnt me "putting down all black people of america" fuck that. I was calling a punk an ignorant mothafucka.

and another thing, my ancestors that are white came here in a boat in the 1900's with nothing and made something of theirselves, Im proud of my ancestors AND my history. I dont feel shit for guilt about slavery. I think its wrong, just as wrong as my scot ancestors being ruled over by brits, or any other time in world history where another group of people killed and enslaved another.but its not my burden to bear.
I happen to be part white, so I get shit for slavery, even though my ancestors didnt have shit to do with slavery. Thats racism.


Flame me now.

[DroppinScience]

You'll understand when you're older, funk. ;)

[ms.peachy]

Institutionalized racism? wtf is that?


OK now that I have picked my jaw up off the floor, I can only attribute this comment to extreme naivete. As well as just about every single one that followed it.

Funk, I really think you might want to print out your last post. Put it away somewhere safe, and take it out and read it again in about ten years. I think (indeed I hope) you will be rather shocked and embarrassed at your own words.

I was calling a punk an ignorant mothafucka.

Oh, the irony.

[funk63]

OK now that I have picked my jaw up off the floor, I can only attribute this comment to extreme naivete. As well as just about every single one that followed it.





I said that because I honestly dont know what institutionalized racism means. apparently its a term coined by a black panther? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism) sorry for not taking the term so seriously.

[ms.peachy]

Can I ask, did you actually read that Wikipedia entry through, or did you just get to the bit that said "black panther" and say to yourself "ok like whatever, no need to actually pay attention to anything here then'?



Also I feel compelled to add, the fact that you have gotten this far into your education without apparently ever having had any discussion in any of your classes about the concept of institutionalised racism is astonishing to me. For fuck's sake, did you never have to read To Kill a Mockingbird?

[funk63]

lol I skimmed it. And yeah, we read it in school. But Honestly I didnt pay much attention because its really boring.

[RobMoney$]

Institutionalized racism? wtf is that?
What about when people who look a certain way, tend to act a certain way? Is it wrong to treat them a certain way?

people through that term racist around alot. calling someone a nigger cuz your mad isnt racism.
i heard the word nigger every 25 seconds in my high school. whats racist when someone from a different race says nigga (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQGklw7hyK0) and he gets in the news. If racism is so bad, and that word is so offensive, why use it? Why cant you just stop saying it and let it dissipate from americas lexicon. Ive called somebody a nigger before. A kid was trying to say I put pizza boxes in his car, then he tore my shirt and I got pissed off and said you fucking nigger and jacked him in his jaw. I dont mean I dislike all black people. I was pissed, I said a word. Call me a racist. I dont care.
Me, or anyone, saying nigger isnt me "putting down all black people of america" fuck that. I was calling a punk an ignorant mothafucka.

and another thing, my ancestors that are white came here in a boat in the 1900's with nothing and made something of theirselves, Im proud of my ancestors AND my history. I dont feel shit for guilt about slavery. I think its wrong, just as wrong as my scot ancestors being ruled over by brits, or any other time in world history where another group of people killed and enslaved another.but its not my burden to bear.
I happen to be part white, so I get shit for slavery, even though my ancestors didnt have shit to do with slavery. Thats racism.


Flame me now.


**Stands up and starts a slow clap**

That was FUCKING AWESOME!

Coming from someone of mixed heritage and attending schools with a large percentage of blacks lends all the credibility in the world to your opinion if you ask me.


I mean if I grew up in a place that had maybe one or two blacks, It most definitily would be a word that was never uttered than if you grew up in a city and a school system that's 90% black and the term is thrown around as frequently as the word "the".

If you don't wanna be called the N-word, don't act like one.
Also, I just remembered what it was I actually posted that got me banned. It wasn't even used directly in a hateful manner, it was a joke that I saw on the Wu-Tang board and re-posted here because I knew it would twist Tone's titty.
I guess it's an accepted term on the black hip-hop artists MB, but not on the white hip-hop artists MB, go figure?

[ms.peachy]

Rob you know a 'slow clap' is an insult, right?

[Knuckles]

*
Coming from someone of mixed heritage and attending schools with a large percentage of blacks lends all the credibility in the world to your opinion if you ask me.



I wonder if white kids called black kids "niggers" all the time at funk's school? I doubt it highly. The reason for that? It's a hateful word.

I was raised in a small town with very few black people. One of those few happened to be my sister who is half black and half hispanic. The times when I heard someone use the term "nigger" directed toward her were defining moments in my life. I saw how that word hurt my sister. I saw how that word hurt my parents. (think about explaining that word to your six year old daughter) The word hurt me. It's not something that should be taken so lightly.

[Randetica]

You act like that sort of reprehensible conduct is what defines racism. You're wrong.

Racism is when you treat someone different based on skin color or national origin. You don't have to use bad names and burn crosses on lawns. In fact, the worst racism is the subtle, institutionalized kind. Sexism is similar. Sexism is when you treat someone different based upon gender. You don't have to call a woman foul names in order to be sexist.

My comment really has nothing to do with this thread, but I can't let that sort of thing pass without remarking on it.

calling one black person a n***er doesnt make you a racist, it's a racist action but not more
now sending him a hate message just for being black then thats racism to me

and you have to be in that situation to really know how YOU would react, trust me me if youre like really angry and i mean REALLY angry then youre likely to forget what mommy taught you

[Randetica]

seems like in america you are not allowed to say one bad word to a black person or youre marked a racist for your whole life

chill the fuck down

[ms.peachy]

and you have to be in that situation to really know how YOU would react, trust me me if youre like really angry and i mean REALLY angry then youre likely to forget what mommy taught you

"What mommy taught you"? Oh my goodness. Look, you either fundamentally believe it is wrong to refer to people using racial slurs, or it is not. If it is an ingrained part of your values that it is unacceptable to do so, then it doesn't matter how angry or upset or whatever strong emotion you may be feeling, you just don't reach for that vocabulary. Ever. It's not a matter of forgetting to be polite, it's about where you stand as a human being in this world.

[Randetica]

yeah sure it's always easy praying down bible verses but be in that situation first and then we can talk again

it's not right what rob did and he knows that but calling him a racist is just plain bullshit

i just hope you got the luck that people wont judge you for years after making a mistake :rolleyes:

[ms.peachy]

yeah sure it's always easy praying down bible verses but be in that situation first and then we can talk again

I guarantee you, I will never be in a situation where I think using a racial epithet against another person is my best option. Ever.

it's not right what rob did and he knows that but calling him a racist is just plain bullshit
I said nothing about what Rob did or didn't do and I never called him a racist. I was responding to your comment only.

i just hope you got the luck that people wont judge you for years after making a mistake :rolleyes:
Oh you mean like the way you did when I said I'd had an abortion when I was 19?

[Randetica]

Oh you mean like the way you did when I said I'd had an abortion when I was 19?

well you almost "bragged" about it so i had to say something

[ms.peachy]

well you almost "bragged" about it so i had to say something

How exactly did I 'almost' brag about it? You mean when I said I wasn't particularly proud of it it, but that I didn't regret it or feel ashamed of it either because it was the best choice for me in my life at that time? Boy you are so right, you totally had every right to get up on the highest horse you could find in that case.

[Randetica]

How exactly did I 'almost' brag about it? You mean when I said I wasn't particularly proud of it it, but that I didn't regret it or feel ashamed of it either because it was the best choice for me in my life at that time? Boy you are so right, you totally had every right to get up on the highest horse you could find in that case.

you been kinda like you made SUCH a mature and wise decision and it disgusted me


one thing is to insult a black guy for being an asshole NOT FOR BEING BLACK and another thing is getting an abortion (which i find way worse)


well i dont think rob can be a 'real racist' when he listens to black artists, right?

[ms.peachy]

OK so let's recap, judging people is bad, except when you do it, which is OK because your reasons are better. Good to know, I'll bear that in mind(y)

[Randetica]

the difference is rob was never proud of it (i hope)

[Randetica]

also i wouldnt use the abortion against you in other conversations but others bring that old insult crap back anytime they can

[ms.peachy]

Hey look, however you want to rationalise your hypocrisy is fine with me, I won't try and stop you.

[Randetica]

Hey look, however you want to rationalise your hypocrisy is fine with me, I won't try and stop you.

you couldnt stop me anyway, doesnt matter how hard you try


maybe i should just follow the mass opinions and just say rob is obviously a racist and abortions are great!

yeah, life is so much easier now!

[ms.peachy]

Ok so we're all agreed then, racist abortions for everyone.

[Randetica]

also while we are at it feel free to break your inner chains and call me a n***er, you might feel better

[kaiser soze]

Using the n word towards a black person in anger is undeniably racist

There are MANY alternatives for angry words one could use, plus how many people call white people the n word out of anger?

Back to the topic....

Obama kicked tongue flicking mccain's ass

[Randetica]

it's the strongest insult thats why it got used

[Dorothy Wood]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$ http://beastieboys.com/bbs/images/buttons_mixup/viewpost.gif (http://beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=1624990#post1624990)
I find it funny that dorothy can say "I don't know, the one guy scares me, so I'm voting for the other guy", and no one has a problem with it.

If someone said something like that about Obama you'd jump all over it.



what kind of problem should people have with that?


????

[kaiser soze]

and why is it the "strongest insult" ?

[ms.peachy]

also while we are at it feel free to break your inner chains and call me a n***er, you might feel better

yeah..... no thanks. Really kind of you to offer though.

[Randetica]

yeah..... no thanks. Really kind of you to offer though.

racist!

[Dorothy Wood]

can we drop this N-word stuff?

geez randy, you don't really understand that it's not just a regular insult. I have never in my life called anyone that. I have said, "sup nigga?" in a joking manner though, and felt ick about it. I'd call someone a motherfucking cocksucking piece of shit before I'd say the N word as an insult. or better yet, you could say something true and mean about a person which cuts deeper than any swear word. the fact of the matter is, the N word cuts deep, but it's the lazy way out and it reflects badly on the person using it. it's cheap, basically.

anyway, I wouldn't say rob is racist so much as prejudiced. towards all different kinds of people.

[AceFace]

i don't understand why people have "redefined" what the N word means. it's a racial slur, there's no other definition for it. when you use it with another meaning in mind, just remember that most people are hearing the real meaning and you're coming off as the biggest jerk in the world.

[Randetica]

so all the black rappers are racists too

[Knuckles]

so all the black rappers are racists too

I guess there's no way to make you understand it. Oh well, I think I'll go back to the sure shots section now. :(

[Randetica]

I guess there's no way to make you understand it. Oh well, I think I'll go back to the sure shots section now. :(

i said dozen times before that what he did isnt right

but what if i call someone an asshole? it's a rude action but it doesnt mean im a rude person for life so put those stamps away


seems like americans cant fix that black/white issue so i say repeat history but this time the whites are the slaves and the black people call you wiggas, it's the only solution, sorry

[DroppinScience]

Randy, do you need a shovel cause you're digging your own grave in this discussion.

[Randetica]

says you

[funk63]

I wonder if white kids called black kids "niggers" all the time at funk's school? I doubt it highly. The reason for that? It's a hateful word.



That, and because theyd get stole on if they did. (Thats hood talk for get beat up)

[RobMoney$]

can we drop this N-word stuff?

I like how you say lets drop it, but then immediatley continue on the discussion. LOLZ, I guess you want everyone to drop it only after you get your two cents in?

geez randy, you don't really understand that it's not just a regular insult. I have never in my life called anyone that. I have said, "sup nigga?" in a joking manner though, and felt ick about it. I'd call someone a motherfucking cocksucking piece of shit before I'd say the N word as an insult.

By saying you'd say motherfucking cock-sucking piece of shit before the N-word, you're admitting that the N-word cuts deeper than MFCSPOS, right?
That's kind of why it took me months before I used it towards him.
Calling someone a MFCSPOS would only let Tone know he was getting to me, which was his goal. Saying stuff like that over the internet accomplishes nothing but encouraging him to harass Aimee even more.

And again, I didn't just say "Fuck you N*****" to him. I posted a joke from WuTangcorp.com that used the word. A joke that I knew Tone would know was directed at him.
Even after all these years I still haven't shared everything that that piece of shit did. I never wanted to give Tone the satisfaction of seeing me get pissed off. I'd prefer to leave that stuff in the past. It's over.

or better yet, you could say something true and mean about a person which cuts deeper than any swear word. the fact of the matter is, the N word cuts deep, but it's the lazy way out and it reflects badly on the person using it. it's cheap, basically.

Well, I'm with you on that. Saying something mean but true can be a very effective weapon against someone. But this is the internet. We only know what people share publicly.
It's equally cheap though for people to be bringing it up years later just because I support McCain on board filled with liberal Obama supporters.

anyway, I wouldn't say rob is racist so much as prejudiced. towards all different kinds of people.

Well if you want to be technical, everyone is prejudiced to a certain degree. Some people prefer Chocolate over Vanilla, Long Hair over Short hair, Obama over McCain, ect.

I could never sit here and tell anyone I was without prejudice. No one could.



BTW Randetica, you my Nigger 4Lyfe! <3

[Randetica]

rob it makes no sense talking to them, they are all so above us they cant even hear us anymore

[Dharma]

Just keep beating that dead horse, I said beat it goddamit!

[Randetica]

Just keep beating that dead horse, I said beat it goddamit!

ok!



god if any of you people listen to hip hop with n***er lyrics or are a fan of kramer then you seriously can swallow my creamy load

fucking hypocriticals


ok i think it's dead now for realz

[Dorothy Wood]

I like how you say lets drop it, but then immediatley continue on the discussion. LOLZ, I guess you want everyone to drop it only after you get your two cents in?



well, yeah. I wasn't trying to butt in on the "is rob a racist or not?" conversation, I was trying to explain a bit to randy why using the N word is different than other insults. I don't know what happened back then when you got banned, I was on hiatus from the board. you used the word to get back at someone, fine. I really don't think it makes you racist exactly. and I don't think that something that happened so long ago should be brought up time and time again.

I guess I just thought that randy was being annoying by saying, "oh come on, in the heat of the moment, anybody would call someone a 'nigger'". I just don't think that's true. even when I find myself having prejudice feelings towards black people I encounter sometimes, I don't ever have the urge to call them "niggers".


rob, I think people are just trying to figure out a logical reason why you would support Hilary and then adamantly oppose Obama when they are very similar ideologically. in my opinion, you don't like him because you think he's an elitist who's all talk and no action. his history isn't long enough for you to trust him. that coupled with some effective GOP marketing and a discovery that you might have been conservative all along drew you to McCain and you dove in head first. it's just a little confusing for some of us is all.

there was a show on t.v. a season or two back that was like a drama version of 30 Rock (I forget what it was called), but they had a liberal vs. conservative thing going on where (I think matthew perry) had this to say about conservatives (he was the liberal): "you hate us because we think you're stupid, and we hate you because we think you're stupid".

anyway, that kind of sums things up.

[Dharma]

Its acceptable for a black man to call another black man a N*****.

It is not acceptable for a white man to call a black man a N*****.

I wasn't there on election day, so I am not sure who made it ok.

I don't think Eminem has ever used the N word...why? Because he would get shunned if he did.

Its just the way it is.

[Dorothy Wood]

it's kinda like when I call my girlfriends "whores" for fun. if some dude called me or friend of mine a "whore", I'd be pissed.

sometimes I like to call this girl I hate a "cunty whore", but not to her face, that's too mean. :/ I can't say for sure if she'd have sex for money, but I bet she would.

[Randetica]

Its acceptable for a black man to call another black man a N*****.

It is not acceptable for a white man to call a black man a N*****.

I wasn't there on election day, so I am not sure who made it ok.

I don't think Eminem has ever used the N word...why? Because he would get shunned if he did.

Its just the way it is.

i just looked it up and found the word n***er in eminem's lyrics

[Dharma]

Shame on Eminem.

How was the term used? ...was it degrading? Or did he say something like "My Niggas"?

Using the N***** kind of falls into the same catagory as a women being called a C***.

Padster has called me a C*** numerous times, I should hate him. But I don't.

[Randetica]

well, yeah. I wasn't trying to butt in on the "is rob a racist or not?" conversation, I was trying to explain a bit to randy why using the N word is different than other insults. I don't know what happened back then when you got banned, I was on hiatus from the board. you used the word to get back at someone, fine. I really don't think it makes you racist exactly. and I don't think that something that happened so long ago should be brought up time and time again.


you dont have to explain cause i know the difference but else then that i agree


I guess I just thought that randy was being annoying by saying, "oh come on, in the heat of the moment, anybody would call someone a 'nigger'". I just don't think that's true. even when I find myself having prejudice feelings towards black people I encounter sometimes, I don't ever have the urge to call them "niggers".



guess none of you were in a similar situation yet but if i was and i or my family got creeped out like that then i would make sure to hurt twice as hard back and use a word that does that trick

eventhough i talked to blacks who dont give a shit if you call them the n word cause for some it's not even an insult or 'second class' word anymore.. just some hip hop term and i wish that word would lose more weight for all people so that it also loses its power

[Dorothy Wood]

fine. I was just saying that there are plenty of people who wouldn't use that word in that case. I understand why the word was used, but I do not agree with its usage.

the end.

[Randetica]

it's wrong but effective

THE END

[Documad]

If you don't wanna be called the N-word, don't act like one.
I've got to say that I don't even know what that means, but it's quite disturbing to me.


I guarantee you, I will never be in a situation where I think using a racial epithet against another person is my best option. Ever.

Yeah, I'm in that group. I'm a fairly short-tempered person and I can say a lot of cruel things but I have never ever used a racial slur.

[Randetica]

me neither but never say never

[pshabi]

ok!



god if any of you people listen to hip hop with n***er lyrics or are a fan of kramer then you seriously can swallow my creamy load

fucking hypocriticals


ok i think it's dead now for realz

It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

Honestly, I wish someone would've dropped that quote on you before you spent all day posting in this thread. It would've saved you a lot of embarassment.

Not trying to pile on you, Randetica. I've been lurking this forum and thread for some time. The nonsense you've spouted off today in here shows your undeniable ignorance. Don't take this the wrong way. I'm just suggesting you shut up. Your choice.

[Randetica]

good to know that you care more about my opinions than i care about yours

[pshabi]

I've got to say that I don't even know what that means, but it's quite disturbing to me.


I used to have a very ignorant friend my frosh year at Purdue. He would insist he wasn't racist. He'd be like:

"There's good black people, and then there are niggers. Just like there are good white people, and there are white trash."

For the life of him he couldn't understand how that statement is fundamentally racist. The only distinction between "niggers" and "white trash" is the color of the skin, therefore, racism. He would argue to no end with me. Boy, he could drink fucking beer though.

[saz]

If you don't wanna be called the N-word, don't act like one.

what the fuck is that supposed to mean rob? oh, are some black people okay, but others are not and therefore should be referred to as the n-word?


I guess it's an accepted term on the black hip-hop artists MB, but not on the white hip-hop artists MB, go figure?

yeah, because black people have been calling themselves that for centuries. i'm not necessarily sure why they do it, but they do. regardless, the bottom line is that it's a vulgar, disgusting, racist term and there's no reason nor excuse for blacks to be referred to that term by non-blacks.

[Dharma]

A bunch of crackers arguing over the N word is funny.

I wish more black people listened to the Beastie Boys,

Oh wait ...Rob chased away all two of them. Ha.

[RobMoney$]

I've got to say that I don't even know what that means, but it's quite disturbing to me.


Yeah, I'm in that group. I'm a fairly short-tempered person and I can say a lot of cruel things but I have never ever used a racial slur.

To be honest Doc, I'm kind of hurt by this post from you.

I'm guessing you've probably never been in a position of being harassed and threatened by someone for a couple of months?
You've also probably have never found yourself in a position of threatening a woman over the internet for several months either, have you?

My actions were made in one moment in anger.
His were premeditated over months.
Yet his behavior hasn't been scrutinized one fraction as much as mine have.

It kind of pisses me off that people continue to hold my feet to the fire for one offensive name I said years after the fact, yet no one ever seems to ever ask themselves what might have happened that led to me saying that.

All this because I support a different candidate than most of you do for president?

[Bob]

It kind of pisses me off that people continue to hold my feet to the fire for one offensive name I said years after the fact, yet no one ever seems to ever ask themselves what might have happened that led to me saying that.

i think it's because most of us are of the opinion that nothing could ever justify saying that. or at least i am. no matter how hard someone pushes you, no matter how much they harass you, no matter how mad you are at someone, i just don't understand how a racial slur could be a word that occurs naturally to use on someone you're mad at and for that to be ok. there are an infinite number of words out there to use, most of them have nothing to do with the race of the guy that's pissing you off. a racial slur seems to go beyond being mad at the individual

i don't think anyone's defending what tone capone did (i don't think many of us actually know what he did). we aren't talking about what he did. it doesn't matter what he did. a racial slur doesn't sit right with me, no matter how bad the other guy is.

for the record, i don't think you're racist. i honestly don't even remember the incident with tone capone, so i don't have first hand knowledge of that, i'm only going off of what you and others are saying about it. i think "racist" is a really big judgment to make about someone, one that's generally pretty hard to take back, and based off the fact that i only know you from what you say on the internet, i refuse to make it. i've never met you in real life, i don't know anything about you except your internet posts, so i'm not sitting here looking at them and saying "this guy's a racist" or anything, i'm confident that you're more complicated than that.

so that's not what i'm saying, all i'm saying is that it's...odd to try to excuse the use of a racial slur on the grounds that you were really mad at a guy.

[Randetica]

To be honest Doc, I'm kind of hurt by this post from you.

I'm guessing you've probably never been in a position of being harassed and threatened by someone for a couple of months?
You've also probably have never found yourself in a position of threatening a woman over the internet for several months either, have you?

My actions were made in one moment in anger.
His were premeditated over months.
Yet his behavior hasn't been scrutinized one fraction as much as mine have.

It kind of pisses me off that people continue to hold my feet to the fire for one offensive name I said years after the fact, yet no one ever seems to ever ask themselves what might have happened that led to me saying that.

All this because I support a different candidate than most of you do for president?

word. and me asks! and i understand you
just too bad youre the only person on earth who isnt allowed to make mistakes so stop being so human next time!

people on here are pretty good at making a deal seem bigger than it is but i say they should go through that very same situation before judging



well once in a while it's fun having half of the board against you but it's boring me now and sometimes i wish i wasnt so honest

so im leaving this thread now


feel free to send me hate messages if you must, i dont care

[Laver1969]

I used to have a very ignorant friend my frosh year at Purdue.

You studied chickens?

[DroppinScience]

what the fuck is that supposed to mean rob? oh, are some black people okay, but others are not and therefore should be referred to as the n-word?

Rob drops this bomb and we're STILL wondering if he's a racist? The writing is on the wall. Stop tip-toeing around guys and call a spade a spade. People who aren't racist don't think "well, some black people are nice, but then again there are those who act like niggers."

I know someone who once told me: "I like black people, but I hate niggers" with a complete straight face and I was bewildered. And he's someone I at one time called a very good friend. He's someone who definitely has some issues with other races. In fact, I believe he got mad at his girlfriend when it was revealed that she was something like half-Native (he only thought she was a LITTLE bit Native).

[King PSYZ]

Stop tip-toeing around guys and call a spade a spade.


Sorry irony got the best of me...

for real, lets take this somewhere else, like it's own thread where all you whiteys can continue to debate racism (institutional and otherwise) and epitaphs attached to it.

[saz]

Rob drops this bomb and we're STILL wondering if he's a racist? The writing is on the wall. Stop tip-toeing around guys and call a spade a spade. People who aren't racist don't think "well, some black people are nice, but then again there are those who act like niggers."

oh i'm not wondering and i can clearly see the writing on the wall. i asked him outright to see how he could justify or explain such ignorant crap. the only ones who are tip-toeing around are the ones who are cracking jokes.


edit:


(y)

It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

Honestly, I wish someone would've dropped that quote on you before you spent all day posting in this thread. It would've saved you a lot of embarassment.

Not trying to pile on you, Randetica. I've been lurking this forum and thread for some time. The nonsense you've spouted off today in here shows your undeniable ignorance. Don't take this the wrong way. I'm just suggesting you shut up. Your choice.

[Documad]

I used to have a very ignorant friend my frosh year at Purdue.
My parents met at Purdue. <3

[Documad]

To be honest Doc, I'm kind of hurt by this post from you.
I'm sorry because I don't want to hurt your feelings. I like you. I don't hold it against you that you said something really dumb a while ago, but it bothers me if you think it's defensible.

I don't want other younger posters to read comments on this board and think it's ever okay to call someone else that name. That's really important to me.

[Documad]

The quote that it's better to remain silent and appear a fool than to speak and remove all doubt --I cross-stitched that for my mom on a pillow when I was a kid. :)

[RobMoney$]

I know someone who once told me: "I like black people, but I hate niggers" with a complete straight face and I was bewildered. And he's someone I at one time called a very good friend. He's someone who definitely has some issues with other races. In fact, I believe he got mad at his girlfriend when it was revealed that she was something like half-Native (he only thought she was a LITTLE bit Native).


By any chance was your friends' name Chris Rock (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz6nsGZZdjE)?

BTW Lambert, you're a fucking loser opportunist. Quit trying to use this negative light on me to your advantage.
WAIT, DON'T LET HIM EXPLAIN IT. HE'S A RACIST. HATE HIM EVERYONE. PLEASE?
Fucking opportunist dweeb. Grow up and get a fucking job you big baby.
If they had a contest for the man with the lowest testosterone level, you'd fucking win in a landslide.

[Dharma]

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

[DroppinScience]

By any chance was your friends' name Chris Rock (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz6nsGZZdjE)?

BTW Lambert, you're a fucking loser opportunist. Quit trying to use this negative light on me to your advantage.
WAIT, DON'T LET HIM EXPLAIN IT. HE'S A RACIST. HATE HIM EVERYONE. PLEASE?
Fucking opportunist dweeb. Grow up and get a fucking job you big baby.
If they had a contest for the man with the lowest testosterone level, you'd fucking win in a landslide.

Yeah, how dare I use your exact words and call you out on them! Now look what I made you do: go on a spastic rant and make yourself look even more vile! OH NO!

[QueenAdrock]

It's really not that hard to see, actually. If you want to get into psychoanalysis, here it is:

If someone says something somewhat bad to Rob, he doesn't like returning the same level of insult or harassment or whatever, he always tries to 'one up' them. Most likely, it's due to some self-esteem or depression issue and the inability to walk away from stuff for fear that others will see you as being weak. So if Tone is harassing him and makes him feel bad, he wants to have the final word and say something that he KNOWS will make him mad, as mad as he's been himself - he sinks to the level of using the "N" word. If Brett says something about how he thinks Rob's racist, he wants to one up him by bringing up something about Brett not having a job (which, don't worry Rob, he's got a VERY well-paying one right now), or being a baby, or a loser, or having low testosterone or something.

So, yeah, I get it. It's really not hard to see what the deal is at all. It's just startling to see a grown father on a message board going around and kicking sand in people's faces (regardless of whether or not the "other person started it"), because I'd always hoped that parents in today's society would have a bit more maturity and the ability to walk away from arguments, rather than escalate them, especially to the point of using such a terrible word. Honestly, I just really, really hope this is his internet personality because I'd be even more pessimistic about the world today and where it's headed with our youth if this is how he actually treated people who he felt he was 'wronged by' in the real world.

[funk63]

My parents met at Purdue. <3

Holy shit, mine too. Chauncey Hill is tight. I was conceived and born in Lafayette.