An idiot emailed me this

[pshabi]

She's not an idiot because it's anti-Obama, she's just a complete idiot in all walks of life. I've known her since 5th grade. Anyway, here's the email.

Any of you folks "in the know" care to explain or enlighten me on any of it? I'd really appreciate it. Also, she's not the author, it's a forwarded email.:


SOME OF THE MANY QUESTIONS THAT REMAIN UNANSWERED ON OBAMA. SAD STILL THAT McCAIN ISN'T USING THIS INFORMATION. WORTH THE READ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> To All My Friends,
> This is long, but very important, please take the time to read it. This
> election has me very worried. So many things to consider. About a year ago
> I would have voted for Obama. I have changed my mind three times since
> than. I watch all the news channels, jumping from one to another. I must
> say this drives my husband crazy. But, I feel if you view MSNBC, CNN, and
> Fox News, you might get some middle ground to work with.
>
>
> About six months ago, I started thinking 'where did the money come from
> for Obama'. I have four daughters who went to College, and we were middle
> class, and money was tight. We (including my girls) worked hard and there
> were lots of student loans. I started looking into Obama's life. Around
> 1979 Obama started college at Occidental in California. He is very open
> about his two years at Occidental, he tried all kinds of drugs and was
> wasting his time but, even though he had a brilliant mind, did not apply
> himself to his studies. 'Barry' (that was the name he used all his life)
> during this time had two roommates, Muhammad Hasan Chandoo and Wahid
> Hamid, both from Pakistan.
>
>
> During the summer of 1981, after his second year in college, he made a
> 'round the world' trip. Stopping to see his mother in Indonesia, next
> Hyderabad in India, three weeks in Karachi, Pakistan where he stayed with
> his> roommate's family, then off to Africa to visit his father's family.
> My question - Where did he get the money for this trip? Nether I, nor any
> one of my children would have had money for a trip like this when they
> were in college.
>
>
> When he came back he started school at Columbia University in New York. It
> is at this time he wants everyone to call him Barack - not Barry. Do you
> know what the tuition is at Columbia? It's not cheap, to say the least.
> Where did he get money for tuition? Student Loans? Maybe.
>
>
> After Columbia, he went to Chicago to work as a Community Organizer for
> $12,000. a year. Why Chicago? Why not New York? He was already living in
> New York. By 'chance' he met Antoin 'Tony' Rezko, born in Aleppo Syria,
> and a real estate developer in Chicago. Rezko has been convicted of fraud
> and bribery this year. Rezko, was named 'Entrepreneur of the Decade' by
> the Arab-American Business and Professional Association'.
>
>
> About two years later, Obama entered Harvard Law School.
>
> Do you have any idea what tuition is for Harvard Law School? Where did he
> get the money for Law School? More student loans?
> After Law school, he went back to Chicago. Rezko offered him a job, which
> he turned down. But, he did take a job with Davis, Miner, Barnhill &
> Galland. Guess what? They represented 'Rezar' which was Rezko's firm.
> Rezko was one of Obama's first major financial contributors when he ran
> for office in Chicago.
>
>
> In 2003, Rezko threw an early fundraiser for Obama which Chicago Tribune
> reporter David Mendelland claims was instrumental in providing Obama with
> 'seed money' for his U.S. Senate race.
>
>
> In 2005, Obama purchased a new home in Kenwoood District of Chicago for
> $1.65 million (less than asking price). With ALL those Student Loans -
> Where did he get the money for the property? On the same day, Rezko's
> wife, Rita, purchased the adjoining empty lot for full price. The London
> Times reported that Nadhmi Auchi, an Iraqi-born Billionaire loaned Rezko
> $3.5 million three weeks before Obama's new home was purchased. Obama met
> Nadhmi Auchi many times with Rezko.
>
>
> Now, we have Obama running for President. Valerie Jarrett, was Michele
> Obama's boss. She is now Obama's chief advisor and he does not make any
> major decisions without talking to her first.
>
> Where was Jarrett born? Ready for this? Shiraz, Iran! Do we see a pattern
> here? Or am I going crazy?
> On May 10, 2008 The Times reported, Robert Malley advisor to Obama was
> 'sacked' after the press found out he was having regular contacts with
> 'Hamas', which controls Gaza and is connected with Iran. This past week,
> buried in the back part of the papers, Iraqi newspapers reported that
> during Obama's visit to Iraq, he asked their leaders to do nothing about
> the war until after he is elected, and he will 'Take care of things'.
>
>
> Oh, and by the way, remember the college roommates that were born in
> Pakistan? They are in charge of all those 'small' Internet campaign
> contributions for Obama.
>
> Where is that money coming from? The poor and middle class in this
> country? Or could it be from the Middle East?
> And, the final bit of news. On September 7, 2008, The Washington Times
> posted a verbal slip that was made on 'This Week' with George
> Stephanapoulos. Obama, on talking about his religion ,said, 'My Muslim
> faith'. When questioned, 'he make a mistake'. Some mistake!
-
> All of the above information I got on line. If you would like to check
> it - Wikipedia, encyclopedia, Barack Obama; Tony Rezko; Valerie Jarrett:
> Daily Times - Obama visited Pakistan in 1981; The Washington Times -
> September 7, 2008; The Times May 10, 2008.
>
>
>
> Now the BIG question - If I found out all this information on my own, Why
> haven't all of our 'intelligent' members of the press been reporting this?
> A phrase that keeps ringing in my ear -- 'Beware of the enemy from within'!!!

[Dorothy Wood]

it's all true. the U.S. is going to become a muslim nation. deal with it!

[ms.peachy]

I'm not worried, I look totally hot in a hijab. I'm gonna miss bacon a lot, though. Mmmmm, bacon.

[RobMoney$]

Well, the bottom line is this Pshabi,
Neither of us know if any of it is true or not.

But that in and of itself is why I can't vote for the guy.
You and I both don't really know who the guy is.


I was just thinking today why the issue of his drug use hasn't been questioned more. It was a huge issue for both Clinton & W. This guy is an admitted cocaine abuser and nobody seems to care.
I'd like to know how long he abused coke and how he got off of it.

[ms.peachy]

I genuinely curious as to why you think it matters, Rob. Also, define "abuser" in this case for me, if you don't mind.

I ask because as an occasional recreation drug user myself once upon a time but not really anymore because I've got like much bigger responsibilities and stuff now and junk, I can honestly say I really don't give a crap if 'back in the day' he liked to party a bit (like me) and has an occasional 'sneaky smoke' (like me), because I reckon he's a guy who's got his priorities straight and conducts himself appropriately in the world (like me). (Except I'm not a guy.)

Incidentally I wasn't fussed when it was Bill or W either. I'm more suspicious of people who don't do some drugs in college, to be honest.

[RobMoney$]

I genuinely curious as to why you think it matters, Rob. Also, define "abuser" in this case for me, if you don't mind.

I ask because as an occasional recreation drug user myself once upon a time but not really anymore because I've got like much bigger responsibilities and stuff now and junk, I can honestly say I really don't give a crap if 'back in the day' he liked to party a bit (like me) and has an occasional 'sneaky smoke' (like me), because I reckon he's a guy who's got his priorities straight and conducts himself appropriately in the world (like me). (Except I'm not a guy.)

Incidentally I wasn't fussed when it was Bill or W either. I'm more suspicious of people who don't do some drugs in college, to be honest.

It matters because it speaks to his decision making abilities IMO.
It also matters because people with the addictive gene will tend to go back to the bottle or the drug of choice under stressful circumstances. He currently smokes and has admitted marijuana and cocaine use in his youth, and I'll bet there's more that he isn't willing to admit.

And I was concerned abot W's being a recovering alcoholic. That's also a reason why I didn't vote for him.
Bill is just an old campus hippie who smoked some weed, maybe. I was willing to forgive that because he showed no signs of having an addictive gene.

POTUS is a stressful job. I want to know more about Obama's addictive genetic makeup.
And it is genetic, so I hope we don't have to have that debate.

[ms.peachy]

But there are lots of people who have smoked a bit and snorted a bit in their past, but were never addicts. Like there are people who drink but aren't alcoholics. I dunno, for me, for someone to have dabbled a bit in substances doesn't automatically signal 'bad judgement' to me.

I just don't see that after a hard day in the Oval Office, President Obama is going to slink off with the motorcade to go pick up some crack, because he can't cope.

[kaiser soze]

Well, the bottom line is this Pshabi,
Neither of us know if any of it is true or not.

But that in and of itself is why I can't vote for the guy.
You and I both don't really know who the guy is.


I was just thinking today why the issue of his drug use hasn't been questioned more. It was a huge issue for both Clinton & W. This guy is an admitted cocaine abuser and nobody seems to care.
I'd like to know how long he abused coke and how he got off of it.

Maybe you should be concerned with the drugs mccain is using now!

albeit prescription, but why does he need drugs if he is healthy enough to lead?

[Dorothy Wood]

dude, Clinton totally snorted coke, people just didn't think to ask about it in the 90's because it was too 80's.

[kaiser soze]

"Rates were c*nt in the bush years"

Now what is he thinking of?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX1ImnGQYcE&eurl

[pshabi]

If were going to be judged on the partying and drugs we did in college, I'll lead the parade to the electric chair. I don't know you that well, Rob, although we have met (obv, lol). I'd be willing to guess you've tried some of the same things Obama has. Are you worried about your ability to live a normal, meaningful life? Are you worried about flaking out on your personal resonsibilities?

Obviously, these are rhetorical questions. Of course your not. Because you're intelligent and a decent person who takes care of himself and those that depend on him. Just like me. Just like Obama.

[kaiser soze]

Flip Floppin'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8EyGpOU3qM&eurl

[Dorothy Wood]

Flip Floppin'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8EyGpOU3qM&eurl

aw dang, 2000 McCain is so cute and nice. what a shame. :/

[yeahwho]

Well since we're discussing drug use in college, all of you must be aware Sarah Palin smoked marijuana. That weed shit is epidemic gangstaz.

What is really concerning me about the idiot email is the part where it states,

During the summer of 1981, after his second year in college, he made a
> 'round the world' trip. Stopping to see his mother in Indonesia, next
> Hyderabad in India, three weeks in Karachi, Pakistan where he stayed with
> his> roommate's family, then off to Africa to visit his father's family.

Dear friends:

THIS IS EXTREMELY SERIOUS.


The occultists are "weaving lazy 8's around McCain's mind to make him look confused and like an idiot". Bree K. said we need to break these curses off of him that are being sent from Kenya.

Word Up! (http://www.injesus.com/index.php?module=message&task=view&MID=CB007FA2&paging=all)

[100% ILL]

Why was this irrelevant tripe even posted?

I've been sitting here laughing. If RobMoney had posted this everyone would be calling him a racist coscksucker no matter what pains were taken to distance himself from the original sender.

[kaiser soze]

It is funny, this propaganda clogs up servers and inboxes across the world unfortunately turns on the ignorant few....or many into making rather idiotic decisions.

It needs to be exposed as the tripe you have called it.

WWJD?

[Dorothy Wood]

Dear friends:

THIS IS EXTREMELY SERIOUS.



Word Up! (http://www.injesus.com/index.php?module=message&task=view&MID=CB007FA2&paging=all)


holy shit, that is amazing. I'm confused though, is he a muslim or is he into african voodoo? or could it be both??? :eek:

[kaiser soze]

He's into MuDoo!!!!

fuck me!

[Dorothy Wood]

you know what the best part about a country under Hussein Obama is going to be? extra breaks in your work day for those 5 daily prayers. also, a sacrificed chicken in every pot. (y)


*ululates*

[yeahwho]

Why was this irrelevant tripe even posted?

I've been sitting here laughing. If RobMoney had posted this everyone would be calling him a racist coscksucker no matter what pains were taken to distance himself from the original sender.

I'm sort of creeped out by the "RobMoney is a racist finger pointing thing". It shows up entirely too much and really takes away from any positive vibe he could be giving, rather than defending himself from a daily lambasting.

I'm just responding to an idiotic email, with something that seems insane yet, there are more than 2.5 million subscribers to the inJesusOnline.com (http://www.injesus.com/index.php?module=group&task=category&Cat=) site.

As much as I agree this is tripe, it is acceptable reading for this particular group which numbers in the millions. They seem to accept and spread a special kind of hate and ignorance.

[Randetica]

I'm sort of creeped out by the "RobMoney is a racist finger pointing thing". It shows up entirely too much and really takes away from any positive vibe he could be giving, rather than defending himself from a daily lambasting.



yeah seriously.

[Laver1969]

Here's the snopes info.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/money.asp

[RobMoney$]

I'm sort of creeped out by the "RobMoney is a racist finger pointing thing". It shows up entirely too much and really takes away from any positive vibe he could be giving, rather than defending himself from a daily lambasting.


Don't worry Yo, I think everyone's heard just about enough of it and I'm done defending myself about it. I even let Lambert have the last word in the thread we were talking about it in because I just didn't care anymore.

(y)

[kaiser soze]

Don't worry Yo, I think everyone's heard just about enough of it and I'm done defending myself about it. I even let Lambert have the last word in the thread we were talking about it in because I just didn't care anymore.

(y)

you're getting in your last word right now

If you let it go....let it go

[RobMoney$]

If were going to be judged on the partying and drugs we did in college, I'll lead the parade to the electric chair. I don't know you that well, Rob, although we have met (obv, lol). I'd be willing to guess you've tried some of the same things Obama has. Are you worried about your ability to live a normal, meaningful life? Are you worried about flaking out on your personal resonsibilities?

Obviously, these are rhetorical questions. Of course your not. Because you're intelligent and a decent person who takes care of himself and those that depend on him. Just like me. Just like Obama.


I did every illegal substance I could get my hands on when I was young, but I'm not running for public office. I think someone running for POTUS should be held to a higher standard than some guy who works in a lab (me).

I never said just because someone used drugs in their youth that means they have an addictive personality, but it's a possibility considering how I've heard he smokes a lot.
I'm just asking why the media hasn't explored that issue more though because it was pretty significant for Clinton and W.

[saz]

If RobMoney had posted this everyone would be calling him a racist coscksucker no matter what pains were taken to distance himself from the original sender.

I'm sort of creeped out by the "RobMoney is a racist finger pointing thing". It shows up entirely too much and really takes away from any positive vibe he could be giving, rather than defending himself from a daily lambasting.

yeah seriously.

:rolleyes:

[Randetica]

:rolleyes:


good point

[QueenAdrock]

Why was this irrelevant tripe even posted?

I've been sitting here laughing. If RobMoney had posted this everyone would be calling him a racist coscksucker no matter what pains were taken to distance himself from the original sender.

Considering that he said "an idiot sent me this," it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the e-mail. If Rob posted it up with that kind of preamble, I don't see anyone getting on him about it.

[RobMoney$]

Considering that he said "an idiot sent me this," it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the e-mail. If Rob posted it up with that kind of preamble, I don't see anyone getting on him about it.


You're probably standing in the same room with someone who would.

[yeahwho]

The ones, they cast about others political ideology and then wrap themselves in a sense of superiority. Having been a victim of this insidious moronic labeling by other posters on this board, I know exactly how frustrated Rob is and those who are much smarter than anyone posting currently here were before they left this forum (they just said fuck it and fuck you).

Rob has not hurt my feelings one iota, yet I'm on the complete opposite political spectrum as him. I think what he's doing is actually pretty cool, he just keeps plugging away day in, day out and tells you why he said what he said and why he's voting for who he's voting for.

I enjoy his candor. He is doing an incredibly heroic job of not taking shit. While the rest of you seem to be doing an incredibly lame job of shitting on him. Just my opinion and mine only.

Change entails more than flipping people shit who disagree with your view.

[QueenAdrock]

You're probably standing in the same room with someone who would.

No, not if you specified that you were well aware that the person who sent it to you was stupid to begin with.

[Documad]

I don't remember W ever being asked to explain about his cocaine use or drinking problem. He made a vague statement about having been saved by religion but he provided no details about the extent of his problem or what exactly he did for recovery. I frankly wanted to know more because he has the signs of a dry drunk who has never been treated.

I have several friends who have been drug counselors so maybe they've influenced my opinion on that. They definitely like it when someone goes to treatment instead of just stopping the abuse without treating the reasons for the abuse. We're sort of a mecca for treatment here.

[DroppinScience]

I don't remember W ever being asked to explain about his cocaine use or drinking problem.

I don't think the mainstream media touched cocaine use, but the drinking was definitely a campaign issue.

In 2000, I distinctly remember him directly addressing alcoholism on CNN and how ashamed he was and how he hasn't had a drop for years and years, etc.

[ms.peachy]

While the rest of you seem to be doing an incredibly lame job of shitting on him.

Please tell me where exactly I have been "shitting on him".

[Documad]

I don't think the mainstream media touched cocaine use, but the drinking was definitely a campaign issue.

In 2000, I distinctly remember him directly addressing alcoholism on CNN and how ashamed he was and how he hasn't had a drop for years and years, etc.

That's exactly my point. Bush refused to answer questions about his cocaine use period.

He didn't admit that he was an alcoholic/had an addiction. He said that he drank too much. He didn't explain what he did for recovery other than to stop drinking with the help of god. That completely satisfies his christian base but it doesn't address my friends' problems that he's an untreated dry drunk and all of the implications of that.

So if that's okay for Bush, who clearly had a serious drinking problem, then today's candidates get to say "I used to use substances but I don't anymore."

[yeahwho]

Don't worry Yo, I think everyone's heard just about enough of it and I'm done defending myself about it. I even let Lambert have the last word in the thread we were talking about it in because I just didn't care anymore.

(y)

Please tell me where exactly I have been "shitting on him".

Sorry. I missed this particular post by the Money man and my post was made in frustration. Just a generalization on my part and not directed at anyone in particular. Especially if anyone took offense. Or have just had it in general with lameness. you know, my lameness.

Peace, Love and Happiness, nothing funny about it.

Carry On.

Luggage.

Just kidding.

Not Really.

Yes I am!

Not kidding.

I have no luggage.

To carry on.

[AceFace]

we're getting to the point where people my parent's age are running for office. everyone in the 70s did drugs. i think it's ignored b/c most of the baby boomers did the same kinda stuff when they were younger so they kinda understand in a way.

[yeahwho]

we're getting to the point where people my parent's age are running for office. everyone in the 70s did drugs. i think it's ignored b/c most of the baby boomers did the same kinda stuff when they were younger so they kinda understand in a way.

Nobody wants a narc for their president.

Nancy Reagan and the "Just Say No" campaign gets a lot of laughs with all the older guys at work.

"Just Say No", who would of thought it could be that easy? What was I thinking?

[yeahwho]

That's exactly my point. Bush refused to answer questions about his cocaine use period.

He didn't admit that he was an alcoholic/had an addiction. He said that he drank too much. He didn't explain what he did for recovery other than to stop drinking with the help of god. That completely satisfies his christian base but it doesn't address my friends' problems that he's an untreated dry drunk and all of the implications of that.

So if that's okay for Bush, who clearly had a serious drinking problem, then today's candidates get to say "I used to use substances but I don't anymore."

Whats with your states Rep. Michele Bachmann and her investigation into whether Congress is anti- American or not? She is sort of making Minn. look creepy.

The Bachmann Two-Step: Tells MSM One Thing, Wingnuts Another (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/the_bachmann_two-step.php)

Is she OK?

[DroppinScience]

Whats with your states Rep. Michele Bachmann and her investigation into whether Congress is anti- American or not? She is sort of making Minn. look creepy.

The Bachmann Two-Step: Tells MSM One Thing, Wingnuts Another (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/the_bachmann_two-step.php)

Is she OK?

Yeah, she's batshit insane and is now eating her words for saying that (though she denies saying it :rolleyes: ). It's the new McCarthyism, frankly.

[yeahwho]

I'm looking at this guy, the "Pro American (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/23/greenspans-mea-culpa/)" < (Great Read! especially the comments.) for the past 40 years and thinking, hey.... the planet is spiraling into joblessness currently, then what?

They say this will be the biggest failure of the economy since the great depression (http://ingrimayne.com/econ/EconomicCatastrophe/GreatDepression.html), which gave us 25% unemployment and took eleven years to finally get back to under 10% unemployment.

[jennyb]

Chris Matthews has the biggest stiffy over her saying that on his show lolz... he keeps bringin it up night after night.

hahah no pun intended erm yeah

[RobMoney$]

That's exactly my point. Bush refused to answer questions about his cocaine use period.

He didn't admit that he was an alcoholic/had an addiction. He said that he drank too much. He didn't explain what he did for recovery other than to stop drinking with the help of god. That completely satisfies his christian base but it doesn't address my friends' problems that he's an untreated dry drunk and all of the implications of that.

So if that's okay for Bush, who clearly had a serious drinking problem, then today's candidates get to say "I used to use substances but I don't anymore."


I vaguely remember Howard Stern having a story about the program W was in during the campaign in 2000. It was some uber born-again program.

Here's the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_substance_abuse_controversy) about W's substance abuse history. Unfortunately there's no mention of the program I'm thinking of.

But Yeah, his substance abuse was definitely an issue the press explored during his campaign. Much more than Obama's history of substance abuse has been explored.

[yeahwho]

I vaguely remember Howard Stern having a story about the program W was in during the campaign in 2000. It was some uber born-again program.

Here's the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_substance_abuse_controversy) about W's substance abuse history. Unfortunately there's no mention of the program I'm thinking of.

But Yeah, his substance abuse was definitely an issue the press explored during his campaign. Much more than Obama's history of substance abuse has been explored.

Since I'm anonymous and this board is random I'm pretty comfortable saying I've been active in AA for years (after a few court ordered DUI treatment spin and dry's). Anyway the bottomline in my life is if I don't go to meetings or at the very minimum associate with recovering drunks and addicts, I get really fucked up in my thinking.

I know everybody is different and all, but in my personal experience Alcoholism has no real uniqueness. The symptoms of the disease follow a set pattern of behavior and recovery.

Religion, school, work, family and all other forms of diversion pale in comparison to actually having contact with other folks who've totally got fucking wasted when they drank.

Church people get me real thirsty real quick. I stay with the real winners who don't drink one day at a time. No matter what.

[yeahwho]

Chris Matthews has the biggest stiffy over her saying that on his show lolz... he keeps bringin it up night after night.

hahah no pun intended erm yeah

Yeah I can't stomach any news on TV, he's probably figuring this will hold our interest forever.

Isn't that the name of his show? Hard On with Chris Matthews?

*snickers away like a whippet whore*

[Documad]

Whats with your states Rep. Michele Bachmann and her investigation into whether Congress is anti- American or not? She is sort of making Minn. look creepy.

The Bachmann Two-Step: Tells MSM One Thing, Wingnuts Another (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/the_bachmann_two-step.php)

Is she OK?

She is crazy and that's only the tip of the iceberg. You should hear what she thinks about gay people! And global warming!

As in your state, we have our liberal areas and our batshit crazy areas. She lives in a congressional district we like to call Jesustown. While the residents of Jesustown were electing her, my neighborhood was electing congressman Keith Ellison -- he is the REAL black muslim in congress. ;)

[Dorothy Wood]

I would like to say from personal family experience that doing drugs in your 20's and 30's, whether in college or not is completely different from having a drinking problem for 20+ years. addiction is addiction, but alcoholism is kind of a different animal, and I think that's why W's past substance abuse is more concerning than obama's (in my opinion).

my mother's father, my father, my father's father, my mother's sister and one of her brothers and few of my grandparents' relatives on both sides are/were alcoholics. My aunt also did a lot of drugs, but it wasn't the drugs that took hold of her life and began to destroy it. She's been sober (thanks to AA) for about 24 years. My dad also did a lot of cocaine, which makes sense because he was staying out drinking 'til all hours or disappearing on week-long benders when I was a kid. His most life-destroying behavior was influenced by booze. he's cut down on that stuff, but he's never been treated.


obama hasn't shown himself to be an alcoholic, and I'm sure plenty of presidents have been smokers and I doubt anybody questioned their abilities to lead on account of it. people who are curious about the world tend to try drugs once or a few times. if he was using anything harder than cocaine, I would be concerned...but he doesn't really strike me as a smack head, so I'm not concerned.

[kaiser soze]

It's funny, in some cultures excluding counter culture doing drugs makes you a leader

[travesty]

It's funny, in some cultures excluding counter culture doing drugs makes you a leader

I coulda been King..... damnit!