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View Full Version : Obama wants SS to be a Welfare Plan


RobMoney$
10-24-2008, 08:33 PM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122480907545265123.html


Obama Wants Social Security to be a Welfare Plan
His tax credit amounts to a radical change in the system
By ANDREW G. BIGGS

Imagine this: Barack Obama proposes a Social Security payroll tax cut for low earners. Workers earning up to $8,000 per year would receive back the full 6.2% employee share of the 12.4% total payroll tax, up to $500 per year. Workers earning over $8,000 would receive $500 each, with this credit phasing out for individuals earning between $75,000 and $85,000.


APThis tax cut would make an already progressive Social Security program even more redistributive. Under current law, a very low earner receives an inflation-adjusted return on his Social Security taxes of around 4%. That's a good return, given that government bonds are projected to return less than 3% above inflation. A high-earning worker, on the other hand, receives only around a 1.5% rate of return. Under Sen. Obama's proposal, returns for very low earners would rise to around 6% above inflation -- about the same return as on stocks, except with none of the risk. Compounded over a lifetime's contributions, the difference in the "deal" offered to workers of different earnings levels would be extreme.

While Social Security has always been progressive, many would say this plan goes too far and risks turning Social Security into a "welfare program." Low earners receive more in benefits than they pay in taxes -- meaning their "net tax" is already negative -- and Mr. Obama's plan would increase net subsidies from the program.

Moreover, this payroll tax cut plan would reduce Social Security's tax revenues by around $710 billion over the next 10 years. If made permanent, the Obama tax cut would increase Social Security's long-term deficit by almost 60% and push the program into insolvency in 2034, versus 2041 under current projections.

To fill the hole in Social Security's finances, Mr. Obama would increase income taxes on high earners and pour that money into Social Security. This would be the first time that income tax revenues have been used to finance Social Security, which has always relied on its own dedicated payroll tax to differentiate itself from other government programs. Filling the gap with higher taxes on high earners would further increase Social Security's progressivity, pushing it closer toward a welfare-program approach.

Now, you haven't heard Mr. Obama describe anything like this plan. If you had, it's likely you wouldn't support it. But it's almost exactly what his headline "tax cut" would do. The Obama campaign took the idea described above and made it much more complicated.

Under the plan, which he claims would cut taxes for 95% of Americans, provides an income tax credit worth 6.2% of earnings up to $8,000, for a maximum credit of $500 per worker or $1,000 per couple. The 6.2% figure is important, because it matches the employee share of the Social Security payroll tax. Because around a third of Americans currently pay no income taxes -- a fraction that would rise to almost half under Mr. Obama's plan, according to the Tax Policy Center -- Mr. Obama's tax credits would be refundable, meaning you could collect the credit even if you paid no income taxes.

While Mr. Obama calls his plan "Making Work Pay," under standard economic assumptions his plan would actually discourage work for anyone earning over $8,000 per year. The tax credit itself would increase workers' take-home pay, an "income effect" that reduces incentives to work. Moreover, for workers in the $75,000 to $85,000 income range, where the tax credit is phased out at five cents for each dollar of additional income, this would add five percentage points to their marginal tax rate.

So Mr. Obama has in essence proposed cutting Social Security taxes for low earners, which would shift the system toward a "welfare" approach and sharply increase its long-term deficit. To fill the funding gap, he will raise taxes on high earners and funnel the money into Social Security, making the system even more progressive and breaking a long tradition against funding Social Security with income taxes.

The complex way in which Mr. Obama structures and describes his plan would make it harder to administer than a straight payroll tax cut. But it is also more difficult for the typical American to understand. This may explain why he chose complexity over clarity.


I hadn't heard he was going to have a refundable tax credit on Social Security. If so, that's just stupid given the state of that program.

Seems like Obama is trying to re-invent the wheel a bit here and I'm not sure why he feels he needs to. I mean exactly who is struggling soo much with the current tax code that Obama feels the need dramatically alter things?

King PSYZ
10-24-2008, 09:08 PM
So basicly if you read that all the way through they made up the first third of the article...

He's giving an extra $500 back to low income workers, not upping their eventual SS returns. If you or this self appointed expert thinks that an extra $500 annually is an incentive to be lazy, work less, or make JACK FUCKING SHIT at $8k a year or less you're fuckin nuts.

You couldn't rent a carboard box for that, that's someone who's pretty much living the shittiest existance possible.

And seeing as how most people making that ammount won't ever see a dime from SS what does it matter if according to this "journalist" AKA Blogger's fuzzy math that it somehow matches directly the SS deduction? But since it's not touching the SS system it doesn't matter anyway... Just like the horseshit about taxing the rich to add to SS and making it a welfare system as claimed.

The straws you and your ilk grasp at on a daily basis are getting more and more obscure.

They created a fantasy scenario with no basis in reality trying to grab web hits and talking points by claiming something patently false.

RobMoney$
10-24-2008, 09:36 PM
The straws you and your ilk grasp at on a daily basis are getting more and more obscure.

Look man, if you want to debate the issue at hand, lets have at it.
If you want to throw personal insults around I've got absolutely no fucking time for you. Nobody's benefitting here from throwing insults at the other side.
I don't know about my "ilk", but I'd like to discuss Obama's drastic changes to the tax plan because I think it's a discussion that people can actually benefit from.


I think the big problem outlined in that article is for the two income young household making 75k - 80k (which is a lot of people). When these tax credits start phasing out, the effective marginal rate can get pretty high on the second income earner which would essentially make it better to just stay home.
The problem with Obama's "raise taxes on the rich!" answer to fund all of his increased spending plans is that soon there are fewer and fewer “rich” to tax, and the definition of “rich” becomes you.

King PSYZ
10-24-2008, 09:47 PM
Well I did debate the issue at hand but you decided to glom on to one sentance.

First off, the article is fiction. There is no planned increase of 5% for income earners between 75-80, much less for families making that much. Another number pulled out of the blogger's ass.

Obama's plan is taking things back to the Clinton years which means most people will see what they're paying now in taxes decrease. For those lucky few who make MORE than 250k in taxable earnings (individual) they will see a 3% raise so in the instance I gave the other day which was ignored was for say someone who earns 280k in fed taxable income (aka after deductions, minus retirement deferment, insurance payments, etc.) would see an extra $900 in taxes. A lot less than what one of Palin's outfits costs...

The thing is the country will be more prosperous with the 3% coming from that 2% of people rather than the increase in the middle class' tax that occured over the last 8 years.

We had a budget surplus under Clinton, so we know it works. This article is fantasy based off a percieved coincidence in percentages which again ammount to another case of race/class baiting the GOP is becoming famous for of late. You wonder why the real republicans are running to Obama's side, or at least as far from the GOP as possible? Because what now calls itself the RNC is nothing close to the RNC of days gone by.

I still don't get how you want anyone to debate a work of fiction ment to grab hits and stir up nonsense. But there you go.

RobMoney$
10-24-2008, 10:02 PM
And here we go with compairing Obama to Clinton again.
Clinton essentially raised taxes to pay down the debt left by GHWB, and not only paid it down, but left America much better off than he found it by leaving office with a surplus.
He didn't raise taxes on the rich because he wanted to give it to the poor.

Obama wants to expand the EITC and introduce a second program called "making work pay." The effective result of this with increasing payroll taxes on high income earners and de-linking income/benefits turns social security into an income redistribution scheme instead of simply a poorly designed retirement program.

Bob
10-24-2008, 10:17 PM
The problem with Obama's "raise taxes on the rich!" answer to fund all of his increased spending plans is that soon there are fewer and fewer “rich” to tax, and the definition of “rich” becomes you.

that's got to be one of the slipperiest slopes i've ever seen.

King PSYZ
10-24-2008, 11:18 PM
And here we go with compairing Obama to Clinton again.
Clinton essentially raised taxes to pay down the debt left by GHWB, and not only paid it down, but left America much better off than he found it by leaving office with a surplus.
He didn't raise taxes on the rich because he wanted to give it to the poor.

Obama wants to expand the EITC and introduce a second program called "making work pay." The effective result of this with increasing payroll taxes on high income earners and de-linking income/benefits turns social security into an income redistribution scheme instead of simply a poorly designed retirement program.

Are you high?

What do you think Bush Jr. did? Leave us with an enormous debt, the largest it's ever been. So how is it Obama returning to Clinton level taxes is different to do the same thing?

Please let me know...

And for the last time, read your own "article" or what it really is fiction/opinon piece there is no social security redistribution scheme. Period. Someone making only $8k a year getting an extra $500 annually means they get to add some rice or maybe the occaisional 60/40 ground beef to their diet of ramen and government cheese.

King PSYZ
10-24-2008, 11:20 PM
that's got to be one of the slipperiest slopes i've ever seen.

Fuck I welcome that day... if me making 54k/year = rich awesome the dollar is finally worth something again. Since that will never happen oh well.

yeahwho
10-25-2008, 01:50 AM
There is no argument, debate or conversation based on reality here.

Strange that when the well-off use their influence to divert wealth towards themselves it's not called socialism, it's a stimulus.

RobMoney$
10-25-2008, 09:50 AM
Fuck I welcome that day... if me making 54k/year = rich awesome the dollar is finally worth something again. Since that will never happen oh well.


It's all a matter of perception of what you consider the line of being "rich".
To the guy making 10k a year, you're probably considered rich to him.

Documad
10-25-2008, 10:01 AM
I find that article difficult to read and understand. I find the republican scare tactics unpersuasive. Given the state of the market it's pretty hard to swallow McCain's plan to have SS privatized. I don't like retired people, or people near retirement age, being invested in the market unless they have a lot of assets.

My mom isn't in the market anymore. My mom is in her 80s and she has already taken way more out of SS than she and my dad ever put into it. There's no way to pretend SS is self sufficient, but then no government program really is. With all government programs we have to decide what's important. I'm glad that the government is providing a safety net for my mom because frankly I don't think I could do it alone--not when her medical needs are as great as they are now.

I also think that SS and medicare should not be provided to people who have a shitload of money. It should be need-based. We can make that need-based level really high, but there should be some limit. When Bill Gates retires, he shouldn't get SS or medicare.

Here's another recent article that I found somewhat interesting.

Economists group ranks Obama high, McCain low


A group of 40 economists concerned with issues that affect women today gave John McCain an overall D and Barack Obama an overall B.

Grading 10 issues, the Economists’ Policy Group for Women’s Issues (composed of both women and men) said:

On pay and employment equity, McCain gets an F for voting against the Ledbetter pay equity act; Obama gets a B.

On public support for childcare and early childhood education, McCain gets a D; Obama gets a B.

On poverty, which disproportionately affects women, McCain gets a D for offering no specific policies to raise wages; Obama gets a B for proposing expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit, college support, and affordable housing support.

On health care, McCain gets a C- for his private-market insurance plan because of insurance company history of denying policies; Obama gets a B- for not including adult coverage in his plan to increase child coverage.

On retirement security, McCain gets a D for supporting privatization of Social Security; Obama gets a B for opposing privatization and wanting to apply Social Security payroll taxes to higher earnings.

On five other issues, McCain’s grades range from C- to F, with the F for his opposition to Roe v. Wade, while Obama’s ratings range from A to B-. Find the report and rationales at www.epgwi.org.


link to the story (http://primebuzz.kcstar.com/?q=node/15241)
The actual report is sort of interesting. It definitely has a women's rights slant to it, which includes an anti-poverty bias.

As with everything else, what you think of the candidates' positions depends upon your own particular value system.

RobMoney$
10-25-2008, 10:02 AM
Are you high?

What do you think Bush Jr. did? Leave us with an enormous debt, the largest it's ever been. So how is it Obama returning to Clinton level taxes is different to do the same thing?

Please let me know...

Has Obama outlined a plan for paying down the record deficit he's inheriting as Clinton did, because I haven't heard his plan yet. All he talks about is using the raise to "Clinton levels" to fund his own, new entitlement programs. That's why I laugh when people compare them.
I'm not saying that helping the poor isn't important, but getting the deficit under control is more important, wouldn't you agree? At some point the guy making 8k a year will be out of a job altogether if prices keep rising and quantity keeps getting smaller.

And for the last time, read your own "article" or what it really is fiction/opinon piece there is no social security redistribution scheme. Period. Someone making only $8k a year getting an extra $500 annually means they get to add some rice or maybe the occaisional 60/40 ground beef to their diet of ramen and government cheese.

I doubt people making 8k a year in taxable income are actually only making 8k total.

King PSYZ
10-25-2008, 12:25 PM
Has Obama outlined a plan for paying down the record deficit he's inheriting as Clinton did, because I haven't heard his plan yet. All he talks about is using the raise to "Clinton levels" to fund his own, new entitlement programs. That's why I laugh when people compare them.
I'm not saying that helping the poor isn't important, but getting the deficit under control is more important, wouldn't you agree? At some point the guy making 8k a year will be out of a job altogether if prices keep rising and quantity keeps getting smaller.

You have to do both, and if you really look, I mean really look at Clinton's terms you'll see he did quite a bit for the lower and middle class. By shifting the tax burden from the middle and lower class to the upper class by just a small ammount it created the ability to pay down the deficit (keep in mind it took nearly the whole 8 years to get to a "positive" budget)

You can't just raise taxes at a time like this and expect that to fix everything. Yes the budget would be okay, but the citizens would suffer. By slightly expanding on middle class and lower class benifits and lowering their tax burden the idea is to stimulate the economy. In case you missed it, trickle down economics are a fucking joke and just a way for the rich to amass a larger fortune. Trickle up economics, or as some call it, capitalism is the only way to sustain and fix our economy. By allowing the lower class and middle class to actually have money to spend then that money is paid to the middle and upper class business owners for providing the goods or services rendered.

And I still don't see much in Obama's plan other than a measly $500 worker credit for low income workers that would constitute a redistribution of wealth. As I have rebutted before, most of his tax credits and breaks would benifit the middle and upper middle class (college credits, hybird/alt fuel credits, child care credits, etc) because they can afford the things being credited.



I doubt people making 8k a year in taxable income are actually only making 8k total.

Oh, you'd be suprised... although thankfully it's mostly teenagers and unless they're not a dependant of someone else they couldn't take that credit anyhow.