Two Americas?

[yeahwho]

The theme of two separate America's has been tossed out numerous times by Sarah Palin, she seems to think the media has a filter even though she has denied 99% of them access into her ideas for these two America's.

I'm reading this article (http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=04234eda-3895-42e3-b313-863a8d6694fa) about some poor attention whoring smalltown dude who say's the area I grew up in is weird. He says people are busy having strange hair and raising puppies even though statistically their are more kids in the schools in this neighborhood than there are in the town of Snohomish where this young republican lives.



"Queen Anne is a pretty uppity neighbourhood," said McMillan, who agrees with the view argued by Sarah Palin and the Republican marketing machine that there are two Americas: a real one of small-town, God-fearing, blue-collar folks and a fake one of affluent, latte-sipping, fancy-talking, secular urban elitists.

"I think Seattle fits into the fake America category," said McMillan, who according to his MySpace profile can be found most Sundays in the fall at Qwest Field with a truckload of BBQ and beer prior to watching Seahawks football games.

"Outside of Seattle you see families, people with babies, working at their jobs and having barbecues in their yards.

"In Seattle all you see is weird-looking young people who would rather raise puppies than kids. There's definitely an elitist feel."

What is it that motivates this mindset? Elitists? Nothing like profiling every person in a major city. Lilly white Snohomish (http://snohomish.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm) has out of it's 8494 people 43 blacks. That is a .51% of the population. Is this what real America is about? Is that the straight talk express? Knock off all that fancy talk about education and tolerance? Live where I live with normal all white neighborhoods.

McCain and Palin sicken me with their overt let it ride attitude. Time is not on their side and the landscape of America is crushing this mindset by sheer numbers.

Here from the same article;

Seattle writer Timothy Egan wrote in the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/opinion/26egan.html)last week that urban areas and states with the highest percentage of college graduates are expected to vote Democratic this year.

The Republicans have erred by writing cities like Seattle off as "nests of latte-sipping weenies, alt-lifestyle types and 'other' Americans, somehow inauthentic," Egan said.

"Not only are we becoming more urban as a nation, but we're headed for an ethnic muddle. ... By 2023 more than half of all American children will be minority."

Demographers say the 2008 U.S. electorate is younger, better-educated and more diverse, shifts that benefit the Democrats. They also say that younger voters will vote in higher numbers than ever before and that a strong majority will vote for Obama.

And also from one of the Seattle citizens;

"This is a country of all races, creeds and backgrounds and you can't say that white conservatives living in the heartland are the only real Americans."

Calling those you disagree with elitist's is pretty fuckin' mavericky. Calling them lesser American's is just unpatriotic.

[yeahwho]

Just after I make this post I go and read the NYTimes (elitist big city unamerican newspaper) and Charles Blow has this fantastic op/ed piece.

October Demise (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/01/opinion/01blow.html) also includes this nifty poll of polls (http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/11/01/opinion/01blow_ready.html)

So McCain’s final volley was to brand Barack Obama a socialist, assail his associations and rile up the rurals. For that to work, everything else would have to fall in McCain’s favor. To say that it hasn’t is a gross understatement.

Then it goes on to date by date, blow by Blow (pun intended) of McCain's missteps toward this inevitable day. The thing that really surprises me is how the Republican's didn't even attempt to cater to those who are 18-22 years old. The first group of voters that were completely raised in the computer/internet age. 6.6% of the voters out there.

[RobMoney$]

The first group of voters that were completely raised in the computer/internet age. 6.6% of the voters out there.


Well, it's only 4.6% more than the wealthiest 2% (people making 250k) of Americans Obama choose to demonize in his campaign.

[kaiser soze]

sarah palin is a fake

[yeahwho]

Well, it's only 4.6% more than the wealthiest 2% (people making 250k) of Americans Obama choose to demonize in his campaign.
I actually think McCain demonized the rich in a much better fashion than Obama. He embraced a pretty poor choice of mascot when he picked Joe the Plumber. What I read when I hear Joe's story is "He is a non-union plumber in a city that requires union plumbers (SCAB) he does not pay his taxes, he is behind in his mortgage and his marriage has failed.... all of this during the past great eight GWB provided the USA.

McCain has not sufficiently answered the question why 90% of the population must continue to shoulder the tax burden. He's calling me a socialist if I vote for Obama. It's a demonizing of me! And the other 270 million Americans who are the working class.

So just a quick word of advice for the republicans, people do expect a product that works, can be explained and benefits them. During the largest economic breakdown in our current lifetimes staying the course and demonizing the poor and working class is a mistake.

There are huge opportunities to get tax breaks for those willing to keep jobs here in the USA in Obama's plan. Just as Clinton had... your hero.

6.6% of the registered voters in the 18-22 age group is 18 million people, I don't want a president who forgets that sort of shit when he's looking for numbers to add up.

[RobMoney$]

In recent history (past 100 years or so), the GOP has never really been the party for the young.
That's the Democrats demographic.

And yes, I do have much man-love for big Willie C.
Can't deny it.

[SobaViolence]

Someone at school insinuated this more/less kind of shit once about my heritage, to which i quickly told her to shut the fuck up in both official languages.

I'd punch Sarah Palin in the ovaries...

[DroppinScience]

In recent history (past 100 years or so), the GOP has never really been the party for the young.
That's the Democrats demographic.


I doubt that. Yes, since the 1960s, with the Kennedys, Vietnam, etc. the Democrats were attracting the young.

Beforehand, I don't know if either party had a lock on the youth vote. I could see Teddy Roosevelt attracting a lot of youth back in his day.

[travesty]

Everyone is a liberal when they are young, well most. Remember those "Young Republicans"....sccarrry!
Then you move out of your parents house, get a job, start paying a chunk of taxes, get married, get a few kids whose safety you worry about each and every day, money gets tighter, public schools suck, you gotta save for retirement cause SS is a farce, you gotta save to take care of your elderly parents, you gotta pay the mortgage every month etc etc. Then your priorities start to shift and you realize that taking care of YOUR family is the single most important thing you have to do in this life and that the goverment just keeps making it harder for you. Then...poof.... you are a conservative! It happens every day.

OR you can take the shortcut.....buy/start a business.

Now, if none of the above scenario has happened to you, or you work for the government, then you should probably still be fairly liberal. But be careful not to take on any small ounce of responsibility or it will happen to you too.:eek:

[saz]

but it was reagan, bush sr. and then dubya who contributed to astronomical budget deficits and the national debt, expanded the size of the government tenfold (homeland security), and royally screwed everyone over in the process.

in canada you get universal health care, responsible and very effective govenment, with fiscally conservative socialists regularly balancing budgets. (y)

[travesty]

in canada you get universal health care, responsible and very effective govenment, with fiscally conservative socialists regularly balancing budgets. (y)

Yeah...but you have to live in Canada.

[Dorothy Wood]

I've been thinking of how to respond to this thread for awhile now. I get really angry at people like that guy in Seattle. who's business is it how people look and conduct their lives if it has no affect on you? why is everyone expected to drive trucks and watch sports and drink beer to be a real american? yeah, I like driving trucks and watching sports and drinking beer sometimes, but I also like other things.

I will never figure out why people are so concerned with how other people look or act and what it is inside of some people that makes them want everyone and everything to be the same.

:mad:

[ms.peachy]

Now, if none of the above scenario has happened to you

Well let's see. I have long since moved out of my parent's house, I paid my own way through college and paid off my own loans, I have two mortgages, I have a child, I am helping to support both a sister and a nephew who will need lifetime care, my husband and I own our own company, I also have a job separate from that, I've nursed a parent through cancer treatment (twice). No, you're right, I have no real responsibilities; that must be why I'm such a liberal. :rolleyes:


edited to add: you know what, the more I think about it, the more your comment really pisses me right the fuck off. I really resent the implication that somehow liberalism is a luxury of immaturity, but people who have lived 'real life' have come to some sort of conservative epiphany. What a load of utter rubbish.

[Dorothy Wood]

travesty likes to make broad statements that assume a lot of things.

I'll have to ask my uncle the CFO of a construction company and his wife, a computer programmer why they're so liberal even though they have 3 kids and a mortgage and elderly parents they care for. I'll ask my bosses why they're liberal too, even though they run a successful small business and one of them makes bank at a day job downtown.

[travesty]

edited to add: you know what, the more I think about it, the more your comment really pisses me right the fuck off. I really resent the implication that somehow liberalism is a luxury of immaturity

It's that or a lack of understanding of how our founding fathers defined the role of our government. Take your pick, you can't have both.

I'll have to ask my uncle the CFO of a construction company and his wife, a computer programmer why they're so liberal even though they have 3 kids and a mortgage and elderly parents they care for. I'll ask my bosses why they're liberal too, even though they run a successful small business and one of them makes bank at a day job downtown.

Please do, you may find that they need some medication.

[Dorothy Wood]

you are very rude.

it is entirely possible to be successful and responsible and still care about the welfare of your fellow man.



We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

[yeahwho]

It's that or a lack of understanding of how our founding fathers defined the role of our government. Take your pick, you can't have both.

I'll tell that to my 82 year old grandfather who has been wearing prominently a "1-20-09 the end of an error" button on his lapel daily the past 3 years. A WWII vet and lifelong private business owning democrat. Liberal? No.




Please do, you may find that they need some medication.

Funny, because he's a doctor

[travesty]

you are very rude.

it is entirely possible to be successful and responsible and still care about the welfare of your fellow man.

and you're B-O-R-I-N-G and D-U-L-L.

When did being conservative ever mean that you don't care about your fellow man? When did I ever say that I don't care about my fellow man? In fact, I think if you read my posts you'll see just the opposite.
I just don't care that much for you!

[Dorothy Wood]

good work on spelling. I don't think I've ever been called boring or dull before, I'm not sure what that has to do with the discussion either.

tell me then what conservative means, and how people who are liberal are somehow clueless. I'm all ears...or eyes I guess.


I don't care for you either, you're a know-it-all who can't even express what he means without trying to insult people. get bent.

[kaiser soze]

Dorothy you're good people, you like cats (y)

[travesty]

good work on spelling. I don't think I've ever been called boring or dull before, I'm not sure what that has to do with the discussion either.

tell me then what conservative means, and how people who are liberal are somehow clueless. I'm all ears...or eyes I guess.


I don't care for you either, you're a know-it-all who can't even express what he means without trying to insult people. get bent.

People get called a lot of things behind their backs and I am guessing that is where most conversations about you take place. I was just trying to show you some respect and say it out loud. I wasn't trying to insult you... just letting you know how I feel. However I do think you are petty and thin skinned, can throw a jab but can't take one and can never rationally answer a question without crying that someone has been mean or rude to you. Get a spine and an original thought.

Where have I ever said liberals were clueless? I think that liberals are, for the most part, fascinatingly bright and even though I usually disagree I continue to be quite curious as to how they arrive at their proposed solutions to problems. Yet, in my opinion, you shed no light on that reasoning process. I feel like I read what you have to say in the newspapers before you get a chance to type it.

To answer your question; In the end I just think that liberals want America to be something very different from what the Constitution laid out and they want the federal government to provide far more than was ever intended. Look I'm no strict constitutionalist. I know things have changed and laws need to change to reflect that, but a real conservative believes that the Constitution should be considered the ultimate default, not the baseline from which to apply a broad interpretation. Our founding fathers were smart, well educated men and they knew the difference between "provide" and "promote" when they chose those words and that should be respected.

[mikizee]

The founding fathers were out and out liberals.

[ms.peachy]

It's that or a lack of understanding of how our founding fathers defined the role of our government. Take your pick, you can't have both.


Hey you know what? Fuck you very much. What do you know about what I 'understand' and what I do not? Since the Constitution was written, generations of scholars have debated and argued its interpretation. I am curious as to how you have arrived at the conclusion that your viewpoint alone is the only valid one. Of course, I could ask the same question of those who think they have a monopoly on the Bible, or the Koran, or any other text people who are convinced it's their way or the highway fall back on to justify their belief that everybody else is jut plain wrong and therefore OK to marginalise.

[Dorothy Wood]

People get called a lot of things behind their backs and I am guessing that is where most conversations about you take place. I was just trying to show you some respect and say it out loud. I wasn't trying to insult you... just letting you know how I feel. However I do think you are petty and thin skinned, can throw a jab but can't take one and can never rationally answer a question without crying that someone has been mean or rude to you. Get a spine and an original thought.

Where have I ever said liberals were clueless? I think that liberals are, for the most part, fascinatingly bright and even though I usually disagree I continue to be quite curious as to how they arrive at their proposed solutions to problems. Yet, in my opinion, you shed no light on that reasoning process. I feel like I read what you have to say in the newspapers before you get a chance to type it.

To answer your question; In the end I just think that liberals want America to be something very different from what the Constitution laid out and they want the federal government to provide far more than was ever intended. Look I'm no strict constitutionalist. I know things have changed and laws need to change to reflect that, but a real conservative believes that the Constitution should be considered the ultimate default, not the baseline from which to apply a broad interpretation. Our founding fathers were smart, well educated men and they knew the difference between "provide" and "promote" when they chose those words and that should be respected.


wow. thinned-skinned? because I stood up for myself when you were talking to me in a condescending manner? I don't even know how to counter the boring thing and your assumption that people talk about me behind my back because I don't even know how you came up with it. I'm not in this forum to make friends or excite people. this is not real life.

and I can't really explain a liberal reasoning process because I have strong republican and libertarian tendencies, and I would say that I am a free marketeer as well. I'm a child of a single mother who was very poor and never took government aid, she just worked more. my family a generation ago was very poor, stemming from my great grandfather's decision to become a farmer right before the great depression hit. I could explain further, but I don't feel the need to ingratiate myself to you. suffice it to say, my family members on both sides brought themselves out of poverty with hard work and no help from the government. so, yeah, I believe that many people living in america have opportunities to succeed above and beyond what you'd find in most other countries.

my problem with republicans and neo-conservatives is that it is not about fiscal responsibility and free markets anymore, it's about power and manipulation. in my perfect world, the people the work the hardest get the most. but that just doesn't happen. and there are people who have mental and physical disabilities in our society. there are always going to be people who are disadvantaged for one reason or another, and unless you're willing to say that they should just die out because it's a dog eat dog world, there's a need for programs that help disadvantaged people succeed at life.

at heart, I'm a fatalist. I believe in survival of the fittest, but that belief is compromised when I see that the fittest are not always the ones who survive in this day and age.

I have said all of this before, I don't know what you're reading. I certainly didn't get it from newspapers.

as far as the founding fathers being "smart and well educated", there is infinitely more information and knowledge to be had today than there was back then. so spare me the romantic musings.

I have made no personal asumptions about you further than what you've demonstrated on this board. you've shown yourself to be rude and sexist and it is completely within my rights to call you out on it.

grow up.

[travesty]

gotta say Dorothy, that one impressed me. You write better mad.

Rude, I'll own up to but sexist is a BIG stretch and you know it.

Let's both go go vote today and try and make it a good day. Mea culpa.

[100% ILL]

Ha Ha! Sexism, really give me a break

[Dorothy Wood]

yo, stfu 100%ILL. mind your business.

travesty,
I'm not talking about overt sexism, I'm talking about the quiet kind you don't even realize, the kind that comes through in the way you address females vs. the way you address males. it seems when you talk to women on here, you tend to treat them as if they are silly. it's just my opinion. I almost called you a misogynist, but that's too strong.

anyway, I wasn't really that mad when I wrote that, just perplexed. if I was mad, I would've sworn a lot and called you a butthead. (y)


America!

[travesty]

I can handle that. I know that the southern vocabulary which includes the terms, sweetheart, miss and ma'am on a regular (and non-demeaning) basis doesn't quite fly with women in other parts. It's not intentional but that doesn't make it right. Peace.

**buries hatchet**

[100% ILL]

[QUOTE=Dorothy Wood;1629184]yo, stfu 100%ILL. mind your business./QUOTE]


Ah hem......... This is a public forum, if you wish to have a private discussion use the PM.


I thought it was funny when you used the sexism buzz word. :p

[Dorothy Wood]

I didn't realize that sexism was a "buzz word", and I resent the implication. you're certainly easily amused though, carry on I guess.



and thanks travesty, for the peace and the hatchet burying.