what the fuck is israel doing

[battyriders]

this is a disgrace.

[Burnout18]

didn't Hamas fire first?

[fucktopgirl]

disgrace is a small word....

[Helvete]

disgrace is a small word....

And also a matter of opinion.

[mikizee]

Yeah how dare Hamas get angry, Israel has only been illegally occupying their land for decades defying the UN and the larger international community.

How dare they fight back.

Fuck Israel.

[fucktopgirl]

And also a matter of opinion.


I dont think so, the fact is that it IS a disgrace, a massacre. The opinion of people has nothing to do with the facts and actions of Israel.

I mean what is amoral IS amoral, no matter what.

Morality go beyond culture,nation and opinion. There is a guideline for human conduct; some prefer to ignore it.

[chromium05]

Who read / heard / saw the veiled threat by Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak recently against the East Coast of the USA, involving a nuke - if the US did not pull it's finger out and attack Iran?

Or has this completely slipped by everyone and therefore require a link?

[chromium05]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1047586.html

"Israel Warns America Yet Again–There’s “Hell To Pay” For Not Attacking Iran"

http://tinyurl.com/8tdtb6




Trying to find transcript of the entire speech....

[b i o n i c]

i don't really have an opinion on the matter but

there are a good amount of "jews with a conscience" (http://www.jewishconscience.blogspot.com/).

not all jewish people are with israel on all this.

[kaiser soze]

Looks like Israel is trying to win the War Crime competition with Hamas

Israeli gunships ram Aid boat in International Waters

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/30/israel-gaza-aid-ship

"When attacked, the Dignity was clearly in international waters, 90 miles off the coast of Gaza," the group said on its website. "The gunboats also fired their machine guns into the water in an attempt to stop the mercy ship from getting to Gaza.

"Israel thumbs its nose in the face of maritime law by attacking a human rights boat in international waters and has put all of these human rights observers at risk.

I do not support either side that supports the killing of innocent people including being disgusted, embarassed, and dishonored with the U.S. position with this. I believe neither side will win the blessing of their God through this viciousness.

[saz]

i'm with kaiser. i'm not with hamas or the israeli government, who have both committed war crimes.

what does bother me though is how many, many western and international politicians, nations, and many in the media continually suck up to and provide an endless barrage of excuses for israel. yes, hamas has committed murder and are a bunch of killers, yet why does the israeli government and military continually receive a free pass?


Kucinich criticizes Israel; wants U.N. probe

By Ian Swanson
Posted: 12/29/08 01:48 PM [ET]


Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) is calling for a United Nations investigation into Israel’s attacks on Gaza, criticizing Israel for a disproportionate response to Hamas rocket attacks.

The criticism stands in stark contrast to the statements of other Democrats, who have offered near-unanimous support for Israel amid the latest violence in the Middle East.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) and other Democrats have blamed Hamas for the violence, which has left more than 300 people in Gaza dead. One person in Israel has been killed by a Hamas rocket.

Kucinich likened the Israeli attacks on Gaza to its war with Hezbollah in southern Lebanon in 2006. In both cases, he said, civilian populations were attacked and “countless innocents” were killed or injured.

“All this was, and is, disproportionate, indiscriminate mass violence in violation of international law,” Kucinich said in a statement. “Israel is not exempt from international law and must be held accountable.”

Pelosi and other Democrats have refrained from criticizing Israel’s government, which has responded to the Hamas attacks with a rocket assault on Gaza.

“Peace between Israelis and Palestinians cannot result from daily barrages of rocket and mortar fire from Hamas-controlled Gaza,” Pelosi said in a statement posted on the Speaker’s website on Monday.

“Hamas and its supporters must understand that Gaza cannot and will not be allowed to be a sanctuary for attacks on Israel.

Reid said he “strongly” supported Israel’s right to defend its citizens from the Hamas rocket attacks and to restore its security. He also blamed Hamas for any humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip.

“Hamas’s failure to stop these attacks only exacerbates the humanitarian situation for the residents of Gaza and undermines efforts to attain peace and security in the region.”

In March, the House voted 404-1 for a resolution condemning Hamas and other Palestinian groups for rocket attacks on Israel. It also condemned the use of Palestinians as human shields. Hamas has been criticized repeatedly for shooting rockets into Israel from civilian areas in Gaza, which leads to the deaths of civilians when Israel counterattacks.

The only member of Congress to vote against the resolution was Rep. Ron Paul (Texas), a Republican candidate for president in 2008. Four Democrats, Reps. Jim Moran (Va.), Neil Abercrombie (Hawaii), Michael Capuano (Mass.) and Jim McDermott (Wash.), voted present. Kucinich was not present for the vote.

Kucinich said the perpetrators of attacks against Israel should be brought to justice, but that Israel “cannot create a war against an entire people in order to attempt to bring to justice the few who are responsible.”

Pelosi said the U.S. must continue to do everything it can to promote peace in the region and a negotiated settlement between Israelis and Palestinians. She said humanitarian needs of all innocent civilians must be addressed, but added that when Israel is attacked, “the United States must continue to stand strongly with its friend and democratic ally.”

Rep. Howard Berman (D-Calif.), the chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, said Israel had a “duty” to defend itself in response to the attacks. “The loss of innocent life is a terrible tragedy, and the blame for that tragedy lies with Hamas.”

Similarly, Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.) laid blame with Hamas.

“Hamas is abusing the people of Gaza by using their homes as a base for terror operations,” he said. “The world should no longer tolerate a terrorist government in the Gaza Strip.”

President-elect Obama has yet to weigh in on the violence, although top adviser David Axelrod on Sunday noted statements Obama made over the summer that respected Israel’s right to defend itself.

Kucinich said in his statement that he had sent a letter to U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon requesting an independent inquiry. He said the attacks on civilians represented collective punishment, which he said was a violation of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

link (http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/kucinich-criticizes-israel-wants-u.n.-probe-2008-12-29.html)

[fucktopgirl]

^ i am, for myself, more on the side of palestiniens people. This all started in 1948 when the state of Israel was declared and the state of Palestine was destroyed. The zionism movement, who wanted to established the homeland of the jewish to the detriment of the palestine nation, is responsable for this mess.

You have to look back a bit more then just recently to have a correct view of this conflict. Palestinien did not decide to retaliate just for the hell of it.

If someone come into your house and take control of it only to allow you to stay in your room , what would you do? Smile and be happy? FFS.

It is a genocide of a nation...

[saz]

yeah i'm well aware the history of the situation. i sympathize greatly with the palestinians and their cause, they have been wronged. however, that is no excuse for hamas to resort to murder. afterall, mahatma ghandi defeated the british empire without firing a single shot.

[battyriders]

what hamas using violence?, those rubbish rockets that hamas have been using are nothing like the arms that israel is using. there should be an embargo against israel now

[Burnout18]

what hamas using violence?, those rubbish rockets that hamas have been using are nothing like the arms that israel is using. there should be an embargo against israel now

rubbish rockets still kill dude....

[ThatGuy]

If a known terrorist organization was launching missiles into the US, regardless of the quality, they would have gotten fucked up real quick. Hamas is like a bunch of punk kids that need the shit kicked out of them. I realize that innocent people are getting mixed up in this, which makes Hamas even worse for setting up their places of operation in populated areas. So what should Israel do? Just say "oh well just let it go"? I don't think so.

[chromium05]

^^^ What a stupid f*cking thing to say!!!

The Palastinians have been getting the shit kicked out of them by the zionists for 60 f*cking years you dumb c*nt!!!

Maybe someone needs to kick the shit out of Israel and the US!!

A real proper pasting. Mind you, most americ*nts are quite happy to let thier own government kick the shit out of them. Like the wives who defend the wifebeaters, you defend your governments bullsh*t everytime.

"What should Israel do?" - Israeli's ( the "real Israeli's" - not the zionists that have hijacked Judaism and Israel to further thier own cause ) need to rise up against thier own "government". If the phraze "not all jews are zionists, not all zionists are jews" has ANY truth to it, FUCKING PROVE IT. FUCKING PROVE HITLER WAS WRONG!!!! ( In his assertion that jews were behind all the money, coups, conspiracies, assassinations etc) Because as time passes, all I see is more and more Jewish connection to EVERY FUCKING BAD BIT OF SHIT THAT GOES ON.
The ADL are busting thier bollocks over the Madoff thing because it was all Jews involved. The ADL spit "Anti-semite" at any murmer of anti-israel or jew related speech. The ADL forget to tell you that most Jews are not Semite in any shape, way or form.

The ADL ( and virtually every other source of Israeli or Jewish related info) forget to tell you that thier claims of decendency from the original tribes is ALL BULLSHIT. 95% of "jews" have absolutely no claim to decendency of the original Israelites. 95% of todays "jews" are jewish through a change of religion, intermarraige etc, NOT through blood.

I am not "anti-jewish".

I AM ANTI-ZIONIST. Whatever religion, race or whatever you may be - if you subscribe to Zionist doctrine, then I am against you.

But the ADL will make me out to be "anti-semite". Fuck the ADL!!

I am not alone in being sick of this bullshit.

Anyone following the HYS section of the BBC website will know of the systematic silencing of the criticism of Israel. Entire sections of the site have been removed from the site AND google's cache.

It does not go un-noticed.

Anyone waiting for the fightback to start won't have long to wait....

[fucktopgirl]

If a known terrorist organization was launching missiles into the US, regardless of the quality, they would have gotten fucked up real quick. Hamas is like a bunch of punk kids that need the shit kicked out of them. I realize that innocent people are getting mixed up in this, which makes Hamas even worse for setting up their places of operation in populated areas. So what should Israel do? Just say "oh well just let it go"? I don't think so.

WOW...that why this shit continue to happen. you don't have a clue what happening really.

the victims here are not israel, it is the palestiniens who are the victims of this genocide. Everything is destroy;school, university, business...their life, their land, their house. Everything is destroy so that they cannot rebuilt their nation. It is normal that they fight back but because of lies, people believe that they are terrorist.

The real terrorist is Israel.

[dugmatics]

didn't Hamas fire first?

Sure they did, but apparently nobody gives a shit.

[Knuckles]

^^^ What a stupid f*cking thing to say!!!



Maybe someone needs to kick the shit out of Israel and the US!!



Really? Do you really want to go there?

Don't you know your country would be on that "shit kicking" list as well? Do you think the innocent people of your country deserve to have the shit kicked out of them like the innocent people in Israel and The US?

Violence is not the answer.

[chromium05]

Yep - The UK IS on that list too.
I happen to think that the majority of people that share MY island are a bunch of fuckers.


"Do you think the innocent people of your country deserve to have the shit kicked out of them like the innocent people in Israel and The US?"

Yes - it seems OK for the US and Israel ( and the UK ) to go around kicking the shit out of innocent people on a daily basis - so why do we cry foul when it happens to us?

Because we are a sanctimonious bunch of fuckers aren't we?

Why can't the "innocent" people of Israel, the US and the UK stand up and be heard? Sure, a few can - but the masses and organised propaganda (media) machines go to work and label them "traitors" or homegrown terrorists.

The truly innocent are very pissed off....

It should be added, with regards to Israel, that upon leaving school Israeli's, male and female, are drafted into military service for 2 years. Those that choose not to object are then fed the anti-everything-not-jewish propaganda and propagate the bullshit. Without the draft, I have no doubt that Israel would be a much more liberal and open society. But then, the draft does everything the zionists want of the Israeli youth.

Following that, Obama's recent mumblings about youth corps ( or whatever bullshit nomenclature they're giving it) hints at a similar "draft and mind wash" plan for the kids of the US. Get in there early and give the kids no time to form thier own conscience.

The UK has done it too. It amazes me how many times I have seen school history books give the wrong information and, therefore, a skewed history of the world.

[ThatGuy]

WOW...that why this shit continue to happen. you don't have a clue what happening really.

the victims here are not israel, it is the palestiniens who are the victims of this genocide. Everything is destroy;school, university, business...their life, their land, their house. Everything is destroy so that they cannot rebuilt their nation. It is normal that they fight back but because of lies, people believe that they are terrorist.

The real terrorist is Israel.

Oh come on...Israel has belonged to the Jews since the times of Abraham!

[ThatGuy]

And like I said before Hamas sets up their places of operation in populated areas. They basically use the innocent as protection. Anyone that fights back against Hamas runs the risk of killing civilians.

[Burnout18]

^^^ What a stupid f*cking thing to say!!!

Because as time passes, all I see is more and more Jewish connection to EVERY FUCKING BAD BIT OF SHIT THAT GOES ON.




really? every bad thing?

[Schmeltz]

Because as time passes, all I see is more and more Jewish connection to EVERY FUCKING BAD BIT OF SHIT THAT GOES ON.


Oh come on...Israel has belonged to the Jews since the times of Abraham!

Congratulations gentlemen, you have tied for the title of Stupidest Thing Written in this Thread.

The self-admitted goal of this Israeli military offensive is to topple Hamas, which has quite clearly been the long-term policy of the Israeli government ever since Fatah lost control of Gaza. This must have been clear to Hamas from the get-go, yet they have continued to fire rockets into southern Israel, almost as though deliberately intending to provoke just this sort of disproportionate, heavy-handed response. Why? I suspect that Hamas' ultimate goal could be to replicate the situation that prevailed in Lebanon in 2006, when the Israeli military failed to put a stop to Hezbollah rocket barrages even after 33 days of offensive air strikes and ground incursions and suffered a notable loss of face internationally and domestically. Ehud Olmert came off especially poorly. Hezbollah, meanwhile, seems to have emerged from the situation mostly unscathed and with a further enlarged sense of prestige for holding out against the IDF.

I think Hamas is gambling on its ability to produce a similar set of circumstances - the frustration of the IDF, the humbling of the Israeli government, and an increased international awareness of its abilities. But it may very well be that they have overplayed their hand. If Israel is able to significantly reduce Hamas' military capabilities or inflict serious damage on its leadership - neither of which it was able to do with Hezbollah - then Hamas' position in Gaza will be severely called into question and perhaps rendered totally untenable. For now both sides are refusing to call a ceasefire, so obviously each still feels that there are gains to be made. But in the meantime, Gazans continue to suffer and die in atrocious and subhumane conditions.

Naturally Israel's policy of forcing regime change on another people is distasteful, to say the least, and all the more so when taken with the sheer weight of their military's response to the Hamas rocket barrages. But ultimately I think the facts point to the utter moral bankruptcy of a terrorist organization like Hamas, who are apparently willing to use the Palestinians of Gaza as human bargaining chips in their attempts to further their own goals. A responsible government is not supposed to hold its own people as hostages against the perpetuation of a radical and uncompromising ideology, nor is it supposed to deliberately provoke massive retaliatory military action by neighbouring states, pariahs though they may be. Of course there will be the usual condemnation of the scale of the Israeli response, and such criticism is certainly not unjustified, but the fact remains that Hamas is behaving with murderous irresponsibility. When you play with fire you get burned. The interests of the Palestinians in Gaza would be much better served by a civilian government that represented their actual interests - ie compromise with Israel, which is the only realistic solution - instead of deliberately worsening their situation.

To that end, perhaps one of the more beneficial things that could come out of this conflict is the presence of a UN-mandated international security force in Gaza, like the vastly expanded UNIFIL force that was sent into south Lebanon in 2006. The presence of such a unit would perhaps help to defuse the tension in all the usual ways and could provide an avenue at least for the amelioration of the human rights situation in Gaza, if nothing else. From there a start could be made in forging a government for Gazans that behaves more like an actual government and less like a bunch of radical thugs.

[chromium05]

Congratulations gentlemen, you have tied for the title of Stupidest Thing Written in this Thread.


Ok - saying "every bad bit of shit" WAS and IS stupid.

I meant MOST of the shit that goes on.

Look behind the curtain of MSM reporting of the economic "crisis" and it is Jewish names at every turn.

Your own government and it's fucked up ways and methods is crawling with Jews and dual citizenship Israeli's. I read a lot of yanks asking why and how thier government can support Israel and give so much money and military equipment at such low prices in the current economic climate. Because disloyal american jews in government facilitate this. Obama's placing of more jews in top positions shows exactly who his controllers really are and you guys are in for so much more of the same.

The reason?

Read the Babylonian Talmud.

Just read it - I FUCKING DARE YOU - it will explain more than my racist, anti-semitic ass could any day.

[Bob]

for the record, you're the only one that's been calling yourself racist and anti-semitic

and it's very polite of you to censor all of your cussing, otherwise you'd come across as brash and offensive, so thanks for that

[fucktopgirl]

Congratulations gentlemen, you have tied for the title of Stupidest Thing Written in this Thread.

The self-admitted goal of this Israeli military offensive is to topple Hamas, which has quite clearly been the long-term policy of the Israeli government ever since Fatah lost control of Gaza. This must have been clear to Hamas from the get-go, yet they have continued to fire rockets into southern Israel, almost as though deliberately intending to provoke just this sort of disproportionate, heavy-handed response. Why? I suspect that Hamas' ultimate goal could be to replicate the situation that prevailed in Lebanon in 2006, when the Israeli military failed to put a stop to Hezbollah rocket barrages even after 33 days of offensive air strikes and ground incursions and suffered a notable loss of face internationally and domestically. Ehud Olmert came off especially poorly. Hezbollah, meanwhile, seems to have emerged from the situation mostly unscathed and with a further enlarged sense of prestige for holding out against the IDF.

I think Hamas is gambling on its ability to produce a similar set of circumstances - the frustration of the IDF, the humbling of the Israeli government, and an increased international awareness of its abilities. But it may very well be that they have overplayed their hand. If Israel is able to significantly reduce Hamas' military capabilities or inflict serious damage on its leadership - neither of which it was able to do with Hezbollah - then Hamas' position in Gaza will be severely called into question and perhaps rendered totally untenable. For now both sides are refusing to call a ceasefire, so obviously each still feels that there are gains to be made. But in the meantime, Gazans continue to suffer and die in atrocious and subhumane conditions.

Naturally Israel's policy of forcing regime change on another people is distasteful, to say the least, and all the more so when taken with the sheer weight of their military's response to the Hamas rocket barrages. But ultimately I think the facts point to the utter moral bankruptcy of a terrorist organization like Hamas, who are apparently willing to use the Palestinians of Gaza as human bargaining chips in their attempts to further their own goals. A responsible government is not supposed to hold its own people as hostages against the perpetuation of a radical and uncompromising ideology, nor is it supposed to deliberately provoke massive retaliatory military action by neighbouring states, pariahs though they may be. Of course there will be the usual condemnation of the scale of the Israeli response, and such criticism is certainly not unjustified, but the fact remains that Hamas is behaving with murderous irresponsibility. When you play with fire you get burned. The interests of the Palestinians in Gaza would be much better served by a civilian government that represented their actual interests - ie compromise with Israel, which is the only realistic solution - instead of deliberately worsening their situation.

To that end, perhaps one of the more beneficial things that could come out of this conflict is the presence of a UN-mandated international security force in Gaza, like the vastly expanded UNIFIL force that was sent into south Lebanon in 2006. The presence of such a unit would perhaps help to defuse the tension in all the usual ways and could provide an avenue at least for the amelioration of the human rights situation in Gaza, if nothing else. From there a start could be made in forging a government for Gazans that behaves more like an actual government and less like a bunch of radical thugs.

Blablabla, your saying are just political bullshit!
I mean, Palestinians are doing what they can , and that mean trowing rockets... they have been violated for so long of their own right to exist. There is no nation in this world that do something for them , they have to do something to survive. THey are defending their nation and because of that , they are called terrorists.

MURDEROUS IRRESPONSABILITIES= ISRAEL, not Hamas.

Anyway....

No explanation can justified the atrocities that israel is doing on Palestine, nothing. This is just plain wrong.

[chromium05]

for the record, you're the only one that's been calling yourself racist and anti-semitic

Pre-emptive. If it's good enough for the yanks and the israeli's.....

and it's very polite of you to censor all of your cussing, otherwise you'd come across as brash and offensive, so thanks for that

Oh sorry, I wouldn't want to offend your sensitive yankee ears. Fuck censorship - if you don't like it, go back to your tv.

[Helvete]

I like Israel.

[mikizee]

Surprising, seeing as a great deal of Austrians don't like Jews.

I don't like Israel.

[Lyman Zerga]

i never heard austrians say that they dont like jews, we hate any other race though

[Helvete]

Surprising, seeing as a great deal of Austrians don't like Jews.

I don't like Israel.
It says location, not nationality. I'm not from Austria, I'm just there at the moment.

[saz]

Naturally Israel's policy of forcing regime change on another people is distasteful, to say the least, and all the more so when taken with the sheer weight of their military's response to the Hamas rocket barrages. But ultimately I think the facts point to the utter moral bankruptcy of a terrorist organization like Hamas, who are apparently willing to use the Palestinians of Gaza as human bargaining chips in their attempts to further their own goals. thugs.

war crimes committed by the israeli military are a little more than "distasteful". distasteful is not the term that comes to my mind when i see innocent civilians, particularly women and children, being murdered by an extremely advanced, proficient and powerful military. the facts here also point to the moral bankruptcy of the israeli government and military, who are also a bunch of thugs.

[Bob]

Oh sorry, I wouldn't want to offend your sensitive yankee ears. Fuck censorship - if you don't like it, go back to your tv.

you're the one doing the censoring! what the hell was that about?

[yeahwho]

This header could have just as easily been titled, "what the fuck is palestine doing", what we have are a group of ideologies so fucked up and twisted that they haven't yet taken the time to do anything other than hate.

Taking sides on these morons is only trying to figure out which ideology is less moronic. They have never once attempted anything even closely related to restraint. They're killing each other as a policy. Just as Bush is doing in the middle east. This is the policy.

[fucktopgirl]

[QUOTE=yeahwho;1639307]This header could have just as easily been titled, "what the fuck is palestine doing", what we have are a group of ideologies so fucked up and twisted that they haven't yet taken the time to do anything other than hate.

I don't agree and i think that you view are quite FUCKED, if you can excuse me.

Don't you think that the zionism movement is a bit fucked? Eradicating a nation to conquer their land and all their belonging? Killing innocent people for the sake of the idea that " It is their promise land"?



Taking sides on these morons is only trying to figure out which ideology is less moronic. They have never once attempted anything even closely related to restraint. They're killing each other as a policy. Just as Bush is doing in the middle east. This is the policy.

Restraint? WHy should they? REstraint of what? They are home, this land is their land too!!
If you are talking about both side here well no violence is acceptable but the israel policy is the ennemy, palestinians are just fighting back for their rights to exist.

[Knuckles]

[QUOTE]




Restraint? WHy should they? REstraint of what? They are home, this land is their land too!!


If you really feel like this then I suppose you should be eliminated by the natives who inhabited your country before your ancestors showed up.

[yeahwho]

[QUOTE]

I don't agree and i think that you view are quite FUCKED, if you can excuse me.

Don't you think that the zionism movement is a bit fucked? Eradicating a nation to conquer their land and all their belonging? Killing innocent people for the sake of the idea that " It is their promise land"?





Restraint? WHy should they? REstraint of what? They are home, this land is their land too!!
If you are talking about both side here well no violence is acceptable but the israel policy is the ennemy, palestinians are just fighting back for their rights to exist.

Hamas policy is the total eradication and destruction of the Jewish state of Israel, checkmate, in being moronic that is.

[fucktopgirl]

That reply is for Knuckles

i concur that ones of the biggest genocide ever done in human history was the killing of the natives of america. That said, not because some morons did it in the past make it a good reason to act with this kind of behavior now. HUman must evolve during the passing of time and mistakes should not be commit again.

BY the way palestinians where not against the fact to share palestine with the jews, they did it for many centuries,also, they never wanted to eliminate the jews BUT they are the ones being eliminated. Huge difference here.

Conquest of other humans is a feature of man, so they said, because he is selfish and want to protect himself and can kill for his own sake. I think this statement is pure bollock and only help to spread the stupid mentality of a few. HUman can also be friendly and full of compassion and help each other.

Anyway, if human can conquer others, well others are allowed to defend themselves, right?

[fucktopgirl]

[QUOTE=fucktopgirl;1639393]

Hamas policy is the total eradication and destruction of the Jewish state of Israel, checkmate, in being moronic that is.

I dunno but after 60 years of invasion and oppression, maybe i would want to destroy the invaders. I would certainly not ask them to play scrabble with me and enjoy a nice little glass of wine.

[yeahwho]

[QUOTE=yeahwho;1639403]

I dunno but after 60 years of invasion and oppression, maybe i would want to destroy the invaders. I would certainly not ask them to play scrabble with me and enjoy a nice little glass of wine.

When you take sides with any of these idiots and murderers you justify what ever moronic rationalization they have to continue with murder and idiocy as a policy. They should begin inter-breeding immediatly, meld into one and start getting serious about this fucked CO2 choked planet we're sharing.

We are heading into a abyss a lot earlier than I thought. When cool people like us on a message board like this take sides on this sort of lunacy, it does not bode well for the overall good of our civilization.

[fucktopgirl]

^Well, it is not about taking side but more about getting the truth out, now the conflict is getting muddy with too much propaganda on both side. But there is an original state of affairs and this is 1948 before the massacre begin.

[Bob]

not because some morons did it in the past make it a good reason to act with this kind of behavior now. HUman must evolve during the passing of time and mistakes should not be commit again.



I dunno but after 60 years of invasion and oppression, maybe i would want to destroy the invaders. I would certainly not ask them to play scrabble with me and enjoy a nice little glass of wine.

?

[fucktopgirl]

^ i was talking about the conqueror in the first thing you quote , the second one is about the ones that is conquer.

[Whatitis]

they never wanted to eliminate the jews BUT they are the ones being eliminated.

LOL

[kaiser soze]

Israel Bombs Prison

why?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10550039&ref=rss

GAZA CITY - Terrified prisoners fled from a Gaza City jail bombed by Israeli warplanes, their faces white with dust and red with blood as they stumbled over piles of rubble.

The dozens of prisoners rushed from their cells, carrying bags of clothes and blankets and running to get away from Hamas police.

One man was left behind, pinned under the rubble, shouting, "Wait for me! Pull me out!"

What was this prison's relationship to this conflict? If this prison had nothing to do with it then this is a VICIOUS Crime against Humanity. These men had NOWHERE TO RUN!

Mark Regev, a spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, said the military action would go on until the population in southern Israel "no longer live in terror and in fear of constant rocket barrages".

Wow, they really think this will end it? Where the hell have they been the past few decades?

[DroppinScience]

I think chromium is actually Mel Gibson in disguise with his "the Jews are behind EVERYTHING bad! No wait, let me rephrase: MOST things." Uh huh. :rolleyes:

Anyways, just like Lebanon in 2006, what's going on in Gaza is disgusting and it's completely lopsided of the Western media to make up excuses for the Israeli govt. while condemning Hamas. Especially when the casualties are disproportionately Palestinian (literally 1 Israeli for 300 Palestinians at the moment, right?).

I'm choosing not to sympathize with the Israeli government OR Hamas here. I sympathize with everyday Palestinian and Israeli civilians who just want the bloodshed to be over and peace to prevail. Maybe that's a bit of a cop out to you hardline pro-Palestinian/pro-Israeli peeps, but I don't differentiate between innocent people, no matter what flag represents them.

[mikizee]

The media here in Australia sways to the Palestinian side far more than the Israel side, all the footage they are showing and are commenting on is showing crying old ladies who's houses have been bombed, fathers carrying out their dead children as tanks are rolling in. Also mentioning how everyone wants Israel to stop.

Wonder why our media takes a different slant on the affair than anyone else?

[Drederick Tatum]

Palestinians control Australian media!

[DroppinScience]

Surprise, surprise, media coverage IS biased towards Israel.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003926518

[saz]

i was going to post that link for you today.

there are regular online reports from israeli peace organizations b'tselem (http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp) and peace now (http://www.peacenow.org.il/site/en/homepage.asp).

[dugmatics]

Surprise, surprise, media coverage IS biased towards Israel.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003926518

maybe that's because it's quite understandable why Israel is doing what it's doing. Anyhow AMnesty are hypocritical attention seekers and their views are as biased as anyone elses. How come for the past 15 years they've been in denial about Hamas' war crimes? Like the fact that Hamas deliberately attacks Israeli civilians and uses hospitals and mosques as shelters? (n)
Only Israel is the villain here right?

[yeahwho]

Condemn them all, I'm more worried about my own Countries involvement in the Middle East, why don't we as a country take a step back and start a peace process.

The rationalization is, murder will make things better, it doesn't, it isn't and it never has. What it does is cause proliferation of a militarized states and less civil rights for all. This is a failed policy, these are serious offenses against innocent people to give the bomb one more try.

For fucks sakes, what the fuck are we doing taking sides? Thats a slippery slope that pigeonholes the thought process. We're being pummeled by propaganda that the bomb is the answer. What a strange acceptance level.

[chromium05]

I think chromium is actually Mel Gibson in disguise with his "the Jews are behind EVERYTHING bad! No wait, let me rephrase: MOST things." Uh huh. :rolleyes:




"Zionist Jews" are behind most of the bad shit. Yes.

Fuck Mel Gibson.

Do you really know your history DS? I mean, do you really know the names behind the wars, the bombs, the atrocities, the banks, the governments, the intelligence agencies, the pharmacutical companies, the nanotech companies, the aerospace and military equipment and military supply companies, the news corporations, the publishing companies, etc etc?

It is so easy to brush things off with a "yeah - ok - look at what this guy thinks - duh!" kind of statement.
It's harder to actually take time to check facts.
It's even harder to accept something that is completely opposite to what you have spent your life being told is true.

You do not know me.

My grandfather was a Polish Jew from Katowice. He lost 3 brothers AND his father to the fucking nazi's ( shot - nothing to do with camps).
I could give you the full story of how he actually managed to get to the UK from Poland during the war but it's irrelevent to this thread.

So, when i say I HATE ZIONIST JEWS, it is for a reason. If you really give a shit about MY reason, find the true history of WW2 - not just the history according to the "victors"

[fucktopgirl]

Condemn them all, I'm more worried about my own Countries involvement in the Middle East, why don't we as a country take a step back and start a peace process.

The rationalization is, murder will make things better, it doesn't, it isn't and it never has. What it does is cause proliferation of a militarized states and less civil rights for all. This is a failed policy, these are serious offenses against innocent people to give the bomb one more try.

For fucks sakes, what the fuck are we doing taking sides? Thats a slippery slope that pigeonholes the thought process. We're being pummeled by propaganda that the bomb is the answer. What a strange acceptance level.

Peace is utopic and not really a good business. War = $.

Peace could have been done a long time ago but that not the plan of the zionism movement ,they want the land without the palestinians.

In this conflict , it is not a matter of taking side but it is to comprehend was start this. It is easy to blame the action of Hamas now, but why are they acting like this? There is a reason why they fired rockets, i don't agree with any violence but i can understand how one group could end up being pissed off and trying to do everything they can to survive. It is also very sad that some civilians are dying in the israel side but far greater destruction and death happen to be in the palestinians side.


Israel are strong and equipped with hightech war gadgets , palestinians destruction is inevitable and that pretty sad. Nobody help them, that the most disgusting thing ever. Where is the fucking international help... There is nothing to do, i am just happy to live in Canada now and not Palestine.


WE are living in a cruel world full of injustices. :(

[chromium05]

Something my uncle said earlier today and I thought it was worth sharing.

look at things like this:

THEN: In WW2, the nazi's went around europe occupying lands, properties etc. rounding up jews and other locals who wielded any sort of power ( mayors and councillors, local wealthy "elites" etc).

The French Resistance fighters were seen as heroes. They mounted daring raids on nazi positions, with the aim of "resisting" the nazi occupation of France. They got help from the British and Americans and helped massively in the turning back of the Nazi's from French territory.

NOW: In the middle east, the zionists go around occupying lands, properties etc ( and completely disregarding all UN treaties regarding what is Israeli land and Palestinian land). rounding up palastinians, lebanese and other locals who wielded any sort of power ( locally, democratically elected leaders)

But, Palestinian / Lebanese freedom fighters ( Hamas and Hezbollah) were seen as "terrorists" ( the Arabs cannot be heroes). They mounted "terror" raids on zionist positions, with the aim of "resisting" the zionist occupation of Palestine. They got help from no-one (the British and the Americans were helping the nazi-zionists) and suffered massively in the onslaught of the Zionists on Palestinian territory.


So - why were the French resistance fighters heroes and the Palestinians, who are in the same position as the french were, are seen as "terrorists"?

Similar situation - different race?

[Helvete]

White people rule, Arabs suck! Long live a glorious Israel!

[DroppinScience]

"Zionist Jews" are behind most of the bad shit. Yes.

Fuck Mel Gibson.

Do you really know your history DS? I mean, do you really know the names behind the wars, the bombs, the atrocities, the banks, the governments, the intelligence agencies, the pharmacutical companies, the nanotech companies, the aerospace and military equipment and military supply companies, the news corporations, the publishing companies, etc etc?

You also forgot to mention Hollywood. :rolleyes:

Anyways, this may come as a shock your own belief system, but even some Zionist Jews aren't lockstep in their views with the Israeli government.

Why don't you read what Uri Avnery has to say before demonizing a people as behind everything (sorry, MOST things) wrong in this world.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090112/avnery?rel=hp_currently


A Memo to Obama on Israel

December 29, 2008

The following humble suggestions are based on my seventy years of experience as an underground fighter, special forces soldier in the 1948 war, editor-in-chief of a newsmagazine, member of the Knesset and founding member of a peace movement:

1) As far as Israeli-Arab peace is concerned, you should act from Day One.

2) Israeli elections are due to take place in February 2009. You can have an indirect but important and constructive impact on the outcome, by announcing your unequivocal determination to achieve Israeli-Palestinian, Israeli-Syrian and Israeli-all-Arab peace in 2009.

3) Unfortunately, all your predecessors since 1967 have played a double game. While paying lip service to peace, and sometimes going through the motions of making some effort for peace, they have in practice supported our governments in moving in the very opposite direction. In particular, they have given tacit approval to the building and enlargement of Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian and Syrian territories, each of which is a land mine on the road to peace.

4) All the settlements are illegal in international law. The distinction sometimes made between "illegal" outposts and the other settlements is a propaganda ploy designed to obscure this simple truth.

5) All the settlements since 1967 have been built with the express purpose of making a Palestinian state--and hence peace--impossible, by cutting the territory of the prospective State of Palestine into ribbons. Practically all our government departments and the army have openly or secretly helped to build, consolidate and enlarge the settlements--as confirmed by the 2005 report prepared for the government by lawyer Talia Sasson.

6) By now, the number of settlers in the West Bank has reached some 250,000 (apart from the 200,000 settlers in the Greater Jerusalem area, whose status is somewhat different). They are politically isolated, and sometimes detested by the majority of the Israel public, but enjoy significant support in the army and government ministries.

7) No Israeli government would dare to confront the concentrated political and material might of the settlers. Such a confrontation would need very strong leadership and the unstinting support of the President of the United States to have any chance of success.

8) Lacking these, all "peace negotiations" are a sham. The Israeli government and its US backers have done everything possible to prevent the negotiations with both the Palestinians and the Syrians from reaching any conclusion, for fear of provoking a confrontation with the settlers and their supporters. The present "Annapolis" negotiations are as hollow as all the preceding ones, each side keeping up the pretense for its own political interests.

9) The Clinton administration, and even more so the Bush administration, allowed the Israeli government to keep up this pretense. It is therefore imperative to prevent members of these administrations from diverting your Middle Eastern policy into the old channels.

10) It is important for you to make a complete new start, and to state this publicly. Discredited ideas and failed initiatives--such as the Bush "vision," the Road Map, Annapolis and the like--should be thrown into the junkyard of history.

11) To make a new start, the aim of American policy should be stated clearly and succinctly. This should be: to achieve a peace based on the two-state solution within a defined time span (say, by the end of 2009).

12) It should be pointed out that this aim is based on a reassessment of the American national interest, in order to extract the poison from American-Arab and American-Muslim relations, strengthen peace-oriented regimes, defeat Al Qaeda-type terrorism, end the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and achieve a viable accommodation with Iran.

13) The terms of Israeli-Palestinian peace are clear. They have been crystallized in thousands of hours of negotiations, conferences, meetings and conversations. They are:

13.1) A sovereign and viable State of Palestine will be established side by side with the State of Israel.

13.2) The border between the two states will be based on the pre-1967 Armistice Line (the "Green Line"). Insubstantial alterations can be arrived at by mutual agreement on an exchange of territories on a 1:1 basis.

13.3) East Jerusalem, including the Haram-al-Sharif ("Temple Mount") and all Arab neighborhoods will serve as the capital of Palestine. West Jerusalem, including the Western Wall and all Jewish neighborhoods, will serve as the capital of Israel. A joint municipal authority, based on equality, may be established by mutual consent to administer the city as one territorial unit.

13.4) All Israeli settlements--except any which might be joined to Israel in the framework of a mutually agreed exchange of territories-- will be evacuated (see 15 below).

13.5) Israel will recognize in principle the right of the refugees to return. A Joint Commission for Truth and Reconciliation, composed of Palestinian, Israeli and international historians, will examine the events of 1948 and 1967 and determine who was responsible for what. Each individual refugee will be given the choice between (1) repatriation to the State of Palestine, (2) remaining where he/she is living now and receiving generous compensation, (3) returning to Israel and being resettled, (4) emigrating to any other country, with generous compensation. The number of refugees who will return to Israeli territory will be fixed by mutual agreement, it being understood that nothing will be done that materially alters the demographic composition of the Israeli population. The large funds needed for the implementation of this solution must be provided by the international community in the interest of world peace. This will save much of the money spent today on military expenditure and direct grants from the United States.

13.6) The West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip constitute one national unit. An extraterritorial connection (road, railway, tunnel or bridge) will connect the West Bank with the Gaza Strip.

13.7) Israel and Syria will sign a peace agreement. Israel will withdraw to the pre-1967 line and all settlements on the Golan Heights will be dismantled. Syria will cease all anti-Israeli activities conducted directly or by proxy. The two parties will establish normal relations between them.

13.8) In accordance with the Saudi Peace Initiative, all member states of the Arab League will recognize Israel and establish normal relations with it. Talks about a future Middle Eastern Union, on the model of the EU, possibly to include Turkey and Iran, may be considered.

14) Palestinian unity is essential for peace. Peace made with only one section of the people is worthless. The US will facilitate Palestinian reconciliation and the unification of Palestinian structures. To this end, the US will end its boycott of Hamas, which won the last elections, start a political dialogue with the movement and encourage Israel to do the same. The US will respect any result of democratic Palestinian elections.

15) The US will aid the government of Israel in confronting the settlement problem. As from now, settlers will be given one year to leave the occupied territories voluntarily in return for compensation that will allow them to build their homes in Israel proper. After that, all settlements--except those within any areas to be joined to Israel under the peace agreement--will be evacuated.

16) I suggest that you, as president of the United States, come to Israel and address the Israeli people personally, not only from the rostrum of the Knesset but also at a mass rally in Tel-Aviv's Rabin Square. President Anwar Sadat of Egypt came to Israel in 1977, and, by addressing the Israeli people directly, completely changed their attitude towards peace with Egypt. At present, most Israelis feel insecure, uncertain and afraid of any daring peace initiative, partly because of a deep distrust of anything coming from the Arab side. Your personal intervention, at the critical moment, could literally do wonders in creating the psychological basis for peace.

[SobaViolence]

fuck it.

they both have clearly shown they don't give a flying fuck. they are not worth the time or aggrevation. let them kill each other.

good riddance.

[kaiser soze]

I guess the innocent children and women should pick up guns and join the war?

oh wait....they're already dead without raising an eyebrow at the enemy.

The assholes who want a fight should kill each other off, let the potential peacemakers live.

It is a circle of death

Born into war, killed by war.

The UN (more importantly The U.S.) needs to step in with some serious words for both sides.

Remember when Israel killed Rachel Corrie and violated International Law?

http://www.rachelcorrie.org/ism.htm

http://www.rachelcorrie.org/statements.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3JI-axaRF4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC6C-cAc240&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=channel

http://www.catdestroyshomes.org/

Some people still wonder why the Palestinians do what they do?

There is nothing Holy about that Land

[kaiser soze]

Israel air strike hits UN shelter killing 3 civilians.

Should THIS be considered terrorism? I know if Hamas hit a UN installation the U.S. would be pissing up a shit.

This is going to become a massive mess for Obama's admin and I'm sure bush and the GOP love it.

Please remember this is happening on bush's watch.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/59041.html

JERUSALEM — An Israeli military strike killed three people at a United Nations-run school in Gaza City where they had sought shelter from an intensifying ground war inside the Gaza Strip, officials said Tuesday.

U.N. officials said an Israeli strike directly hit an elementary school compound where more than 400 Palestinians had come to escape fighting in northern Gaza, and which was clearly marked as a U.N. installation. The U.N. said it was "strongly protesting" the incident and called on Israel to immediately investigate it.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD95HM3S02

U.N. officials say they provided their location coordinates to Israel's army to ensure that their buildings in Gaza are not targeted. The Israeli army had no comment on the latest strikes, but in the past has accused militants of using schools, mosques and residential neighborhoods to store weapons or launch attacks.

The international Red Cross also was looking into reports that a Red Crescent ambulance station in the northern town of Jebaliya was hit during the night.

Looks like the body count has increased to 40.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7814054.stm

At least 40 people have been killed in an Israeli air strike on a United Nations-run school in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian medical sources have said.

A number of children were among those who died when the al-Fakhura school in the Jabaliya refugee camp took a direct hit, doctors at nearby hospitals said.

People inside had been taking refuge from the Israeli ground offensive.

God, I couldn't imagine my child being killed by cowards.

[dugmatics]

^^^:rolleyes:

For all we know it might have been this school:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI

And of course Hamas never targets schools only Israel:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230456524549&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733178906&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[kaiser soze]

^^^:rolleyes:

Agreed, Hamas are just as guilty and filthy for attacking civilians. I never said
Hamas was innocent. Thanks for the links. I have a question though, do you have any other sources than the Jpost...it could easily be taken as biased like Al Jazeera.

This was an attack that hit a UN sanctioned shelter....what was Israel retaliating? It proves that Israel is just as ruthless as Hamas and should be approached as such.

I guess it's ok to support the terrorism of one while condemning the terrorism of the other. I am disgusted with both sides. I am saddened when I hear of a suicide bomber in a pizza shop and equally saddened when innocents hiding from the war are attacked.

[battyriders]

just wanted to add that my ex-primeminister tony the devil himself blair, peace envoy in the middle east has kept him self well out of it, the utter cunt he should be in the hague along with bush chaney etc. hamas were legitimitly elected more so than bush and all his croneys and to say israel didnt start the violence is dog shit, the state of israel are the origional terrorists

[Carlos]

ok this shit has gotta STOP now!!

Over 600 dead, and 2000+ injured..

I mean how long will the grotesque hypocracy provail, with the world standing by twiddling it's thumbs whilst woman and children are beind cut into parts by multi million dollar WMD provided by the USA... fueling the mindless gangs firing WMF (Weapons of Mass Fear) back into Israel.

Israel and the US are the only party's that can stop this, as Hamas DID maintain the ceasfire 6 months ago for 4 months, until November. When Israel BROKE IT by killing 6 people including woman and children. Which spured the rockets to start again.. 2 wrongs do not make a right.

However when a STATE breaks a ceasfire, then blames the other side for breaking it when it retaliates is low at best... and to all those in the arab world, and anyone who really isn't blinded by the forked tongue words of justification for the criminal acts unfolding infront of us it is seen as war crimes: totally indescrimnate killing of inocent people.

Listen to the UN representatives inside Gaza PLEADING for them to stop. Israel has killed nearly 40 children and woman sheltering in a UN school which they had the GPS coords of - I MEAN WTF!!!!!

Hamas almost 'broke' it's own back almost by holding off the rockets for 4 months - not just the armed Hamas wing, but the other militant groups too (in such a lawless place, that was not an easy tadk), under very harsh conditions: tight restrictions crossing, not allowing free movement, and the West's completely disgusting with holding of money, and as such development of the Palestinian terrortories.

So at every oppertunity Israel has stoked the fire, what it is doing is radicalising another whole generation of Gazan's - What's their major malfucntion? It's like there was whole generation that couldn't remember an Israeli masachre so they thought they better change it huh?? They are SICK!

And then they wonder why men with no jobs, no hope, no joy, fire rockets and are willing to die in the name of their freedom!
It's like a scientific formula, it's not F'ing rocket science, it's 2+2 = 4!!!!! I mean has their ever been a people when oppressed, crushed, and humilated have just let it happen, and not fought back in what ever way they can, even if it is completely futile??

It is CLEAR that the Israeli government know what their actions will do, that it will never stop the retaliation.... yes if they stay long enough they could destroy nearly every Hamas militant (even though it's not only hamas firing rockets, they are 1 group of militants), or arsenal. When they leave, if there is not the real and lasting agreement - which Israel REFUSES to face up to.. it will happen alll over again.

So you gotta ask what are the motives if it clearly isn't to solve the problem, and in doing so truly making the people of Israel safe.

Create the fear, it's the a classic FASCIST tactic - same as the Bush/Cheney Terror doctrine.... all manufactured and manipulated to increase the power of the state.

The Israeli argument is so simplistic, and a typical fascist tactic, of hiding behind a seemingly simple principle - but denying the complexities of reality. For example, they say that the rocket are indescriminate.... but their's are surgical. Yet they have killed over 600, and the rockets have killed 4.
However, it is even more ludicrous when seen in this light: that there is no other conflict ever like this, between a people without an army, without their own determination, without the ability to feed itself, and now without a police force (as Israel killed em all in first couple days). And a State with as hi-tek a military as you can have. Of course the rockets fired from gaza are indescriminent. WELL FUCKIN ARM EM PROPER WITH APACHES AND F-16's... you'll see them target the govenment in Jerusalem... that's the whole point... it's DAVID VS GOLIATH!!!!!!!!




....and yeah it's been a while since i posted - but.. lol .. it's amazing how things don't change rnd 'ere ;-)

[QueenAdrock]

I am disgusted with both sides.

Pretty much. I can't justify supporting EITHER side with the war crimes that have been carried out. It's amazing, because my friends were having a drunk debate about Palestine/Israel this weekend and asked me what I thought. I said "Screw them both." They were flabbergasted, because I was American, and don't all Americans support Israel?

No, just the weak-spined politicians. Me, I liken it to supporting Stalin over Hitler. They're both guilty of heinous acts, the US just chooses to pick one over the other due to strategy, not because one is "infinitely better" or more righteous than the other side.

[dugmatics]

^^^:rolleyes:

Agreed, Hamas are just as guilty and filthy for attacking civilians. I never said
Hamas was innocent. Thanks for the links. I have a question though, do you have any other sources than the Jpost...it could easily be taken as biased like Al Jazeera.

This was an attack that hit a UN sanctioned shelter....what was Israel retaliating? It proves that Israel is just as ruthless as Hamas and should be approached as such.

I guess it's ok to support the terrorism of one while condemning the terrorism of the other. I am disgusted with both sides. I am saddened when I hear of a suicide bomber in a pizza shop and equally saddened when innocents hiding from the war are attacked.

I'm not disgusted with either side. I support Israel and I think that most gazans should suffer.

[Lyman Zerga]

I'm not disgusted with either side. I support Israel and I think that most gazans should suffer.

thats no soccer game!


but anyway.. war is starting to bore me :(

[kaiser soze]

I'm not disgusted with either side. I support Israel and I think that most gazans should suffer.

They have been suffering for decades, well before Hamas became politically "relevant".

[dugmatics]

They have been suffering for decades, well before Hamas became politically "relevant".

Is that a fact?

According to http://www.medea.be/index.html?page=2&lang=en&doc=284 ("European Institute for Research on Mediterranean and Euro-Arab Cooperation" - definitely not suspected of being pro-israel):
"Before the Oslo Peace Process, over one third of West Bank and Gaza workers were employed in Israel.."

Post-intafada?
"The overall number of Palestinians working in Israel has decreased by about 100.000 compared to pre-Intifada levels."

I guess there's a direct correlation between high unemployment and self rule on the palestinian side. Adding brainwashing blackmailing fucked-up-extremist-militant-Islamist leadership to that mix is a sure recipe for someone stepping up to set you straight.

[AceFace]

don't they know that the world is gonna end in 2012!? they better make up and be friends before the world explodes!

[saz]

I support Israel and I think that most gazans should suffer.

that's the most despicable comment i've ever read on here.

[fucktopgirl]

^ i concur that this kind of attitude is moronic and can be a reason why Palestinians are still killed. I imagine that Israel soldiers have this kind of attitude to go on with their killing. THey seem to be deprive of any human feeling

[kaiser soze]

Israel admits attacks on UN shelters unprovoked.

If this is true this could be troublesome

http://www.google.com/search?q=israel+admits+rockets+not+from+UN+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/07/2460411.htm

The United Nations has demanded an investigation into Israeli attacks that killed more than 30 Palestinians at UN-run schools in the Gaza Strip overnight.

At least 30 people died and 55 were injured at a UN-run school at the Jabaliya refugee camp in northern Gaza when Israeli shells landed just outside the school, which was packed with locals taking shelter from the fighting.

Witnesses said people who were cut down by shrapnel lay in pools of blood in the street.

http://news-en.trend.az/un/1390674.html

Israel told foreign diplomats Wednesday that Palestinian militants had not fired rockets from within a United Nations' school, a UN official said, UN official website reported.

Israeli military officials said on Tuesday that militants had fired rockets from within the school, and that attack provoked Israeli artillery fire which landed near the school and killed more than 40 Palestinians in the Jabalia refugee camp, many of whom were seeking refuge from fightin

[kaiser soze]

Gaza Medics report 70 deaths from one family, no mention of relationship to Hamas.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4162193/Gaza-medics-describe-horror-of-strike-which-killed-70.html

Growing evidence emerged today of the bloodiest single incident of the Gaza conflict when around 70 corpses were found by a Palestinian paramedic near a bombed-out house.

They said that after the Israeli army first took the town on Saturday night soldiers had ordered about 100 members of the clan to gather in a single house owned by Wael Samouni around dawn on Sunday.

At 6.35am on Monday the house was repeatedly shelled with appalling loss of civilian life.

[dugmatics]

that's the most despicable comment i've ever read on here.

What? That I support Israel? Israel's an awesome country! They have the best falafel and humus there. (y)

[fucktopgirl]

^ < sigh>

We are not talking about the food and all. BUt about Israel as a militarized state which is going too far.

[kaiser soze]

Good falafel and hummus won't change the fact that they are war criminals.

Israel fires upon UN Aid Convoy during 3 hour cease fire.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5dd_1231419510

At least one Palestinian has been killed after a UN relief agency convoy came under fire from Israeli forces in the Gaza Strip, officials say.

The attack took place on Thursday as the lorries travelled to the Erez crossing to pick up supplies that were to have been allowed in during a three-hour ceasefire.

Thursday's pause in the 13-day Israeli offensive to allow humanitarian aid into the s More..trip was scheduled to last from 1pm (11:00 GMT) to 4pm (14:00 GMT).

The Israeli military said that it was checking reports of the incident.

John Ging, the head of the UN relief agency in Gaza, said that the casualties were Palestinian civilian contractors contracted to bring supplies from the crossing points.

"They were co-ordinating their movements with the Israelis, as they always do, only to find themselves being fired at from the ground troops," he told Al Jazeera.

[kaiser soze]

Israeli soldiers delay Red Cross response, stand idly while young children are stranded with their dead mother's bodies.

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/palestine-news-080109?opendocument

The ICRC had requested safe passage for ambulances to access this neighbourhood since 3 January but it only received permission to do so from the Israel Defense Forces during the afternoon of 7 January.

The ICRC/PRCS team found four small children next to their dead mothers in one of the houses. They were too weak to stand up on their own. One man was also found alive, too weak to stand up. In all there were at least 12 corpses lying on mattresses.

In another house, the ICRC/PRCS rescue team found 15 other survivors of this attack including several wounded. In yet another house, they found an additional three corpses. Israeli soldiers posted at a military position some 80 meters away from this house ordered the rescue team to leave the area which they refused to do. There were several other positions of the Israel Defense Forces nearby as well as two tanks.

[kaiser soze]

The U.S. Senate voted unanimously in support of this (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aUhdubfcXlOE&refer=politics) (Beware)

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aUhdubfcXlOE&refer=politics

n. 8 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. Senate unanimously approved a resolution expressing support for Israel in its conflict with Hamas, while the House of Representatives prepared to act on a similar measure tomorrow.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, a Nevada Democrat, said the measure “expresses vigorous support” for Israel.

“The Israelis have every right to defend themselves against these acts of terrorism,” said Republican Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky.

I am absolutely ashamed of our leadership (n)

[Carlos]

Israeli soldiers delay Red Cross response, stand idly while young children are stranded with their dead mother's bodies.

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/palestine-news-080109?opendocument


it's EXTREMELY CLEAR - WAR CRIME OF THE HIGHEST ORDER

I mean if the original act of leaving them there wasn't bad enough, the IDF make the Red Cross use a fucking DONKEY CART to evacuate the dead and injured rather than an ambulance...

But obviously no one will be held responsible, or tried.

I mean just imagine, if this was the other way round? Tel Aviv was being bombed to pieces, 500 woman and children killed?
I think people are just sooo used to people with dark skins pulling their children out of rubble that it just doesn''t sink in the REALITY OF WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE to live - yes 700 people have died, but there's over 1,000,000 people living - through the daily bombardment, no electicity (because power station has been bombed), little food and water if any, I know I cannot even begin to imagine what it feels like sitting in my warm home, typing at my macbook!!

The comment by not even sure who - i'll just call em RETARD - who said they "..'support Israel'.. fuck the gazans" is the extreme end of this de-sentisization of killing dark people (that's Irony.. BTW).. but on a lower scale is exactly what Israel has espoused for it's whole existence. Right back to the original masacres, and stealing of land of the Palestinians. The Israeli govenment, and by extension normal IDF soldiers show absolutely no regard for Arab human life - due to the fear fuelled by the cycle of oppression and violence.

But even in a parlitical sense: Arabs are second (even 3rd) class citizens in Israel, are completely urepresented in parliament, which goes for those from ethnic minorities too - such as Jews from Africa that have moved there. Now this could (and this is a cultural disection, not an attack on Judaism per se) be due to the basis for being a Jew - born of a Jewish mother. Which gives a degree of selectiveness into the nature of the state.

Just for the record, throughout the years ALL major religions (establishments) have been the root of most of our problems, but also within all religions can be found the insights to our existence - just need to know where to look.. lol .. and who not to listen to :cool:

[D_Raay]

All I can say is I hope Karma really exists. I am so tired of our media as well. Everything with them is a preponderance of "good vs evil". As far as I am concerned "evil", if there is such a thing, is killing women and children in the name of defending yourself. The very notion is preposterous.

[Bob]

All I can say is I hope Karma really exists. I am so tired of our media as well. Everything with them is a preponderance of "good vs evil". As far as I am concerned "evil", if there is such a thing, is killing women and children in the name of defending yourself. The very notion is preposterous.

what i find the most aggravating about all of this is how israel keeps saying "we're doing everything we can to prevent civilian casualties"

apparently you can't do much you worthless murdering motherfuckers

[yeahwho]

what i find the most aggravating about all of this is how israel keeps saying "we're doing everything we can to prevent civilian casualties"

apparently you can't do much you worthless murdering motherfuckers

(y)

[saz]

(y)

All I can say is I hope Karma really exists. I am so tired of our media as well. Everything with them is a preponderance of "good vs evil". As far as I am concerned "evil", if there is such a thing, is killing women and children in the name of defending yourself. The very notion is preposterous.

[dugmatics]

what i find the most aggravating about all of this is how israel keeps saying "we're doing everything we can to prevent civilian casualties"

apparently you can't do much you worthless murdering motherfuckers


Yeh it's kinda hard when the opposing government you're fighting against is very willing to sacrifice their own peoples in its "resistance" efforts. Most of these comments here read like a goddamn satire. Quite passionate when it comes to waving the finger at the zionist criminals eh?

Anyhow read for yourself the words of abu-marzouk, Hamas chieftan sitting quite dandy in his office in damascus. (from http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200918155333111890.html)


A victory for Hamas would mean the Israelis did not accomplish their objectives.

If they can't stop rockets from coming into Israel, that means they failed.

even more interesting:

But we are sending a message [by firing rockets]: "We will not surrender. We have to fight the Israelis and we will win this battle."

We know we are going to lose a lot of people from our side, but we are going to win, inshallah.


Basically this madman is saying: We will pay whatever the price in human lives (our own civilians) to prevent Israel from preventing us to attack them.

I say: Let gaza burn till these fucks start coming to grips with reality.

[Carlos]

ah the retard is attempting to form some kind of argument for his enlightened postition :rolleyes:

I agree that Hamas have their part to play in this darkest of events. They could shut up shop, and stop firing the rockets from Gaza. Simple yeah?
However this would mean that they would essentially be putting their 'faith' in Israel to stop the bombing of Gaza. Which when you listen to what has been coming out of Israeli representatives regarding demantalisation of Hamas (and what appears to be a well planned military opperation against the whole infrastructure of Hamas: i.e Gaza's infrastructure), it would be a mighty act of faith. Not to mention that Israel broke the last ceasefire back on november the 4th (yeah while the world was weeping tears of joy for a new hope, they broke the ceasefire and killed a number of people.. slightly cynical???!!!!)... would you trust them?

Even if Hamas ordered a ceasefire, other military groups would still fire rockets under the siege situation that has existed for the last 2 years. Hamas is not the root of military action, it is merely a grass roots organisation both politcal and military with it's sole purpose (from all their public statements) to bring a stop to the illegal occupation of Palestinian land. Which involves from their obviously warped perspective that firing rockets is a necessary part of this, as it does create fear and very occasioncally death and therefore from a military perspective has an effect - even if in reality it is futile, politically and militarily. But is an invetiability - which Israel is fully aware of.

Unless Israel is willing to engage properly, withdraw from the illegal teritories, not be the policemen of another people and land, and share Jerusalem, in other words FACE REALITY the violence will never end. This is the crux, and basically Israel refuses to give up these things. So the cycle of a people being oppressed and forced to live in sub-standard, in-humane conditions will prevail, which ALWAYS will lead to disolusionment, and some (men) will feel the only way is to fight - this is the same for any civilisation throughout time: but Israel, and by extension America, and the the right wing press refuses to acknowledge this to be so. With all emphasis on the ability to stop the cycle being placed squarely on the shoulders of the Palestinians.

It's like blaming concentration camp prisoners (yes inocent people trapped in a cage not of their making) for aggression against the prison guards, when they are subjected to humiliation, oppression, and also violence. This is the brutal reality. We have 1 massive concentration camp... and surely there are one group of people that should remember what that means!!!!

It really beggars belief the twisted, criminal logic that is espoused by Israeli reprenstatives, and to a lessser extent the brainwashed fear-ridden Israeli public. Black = White.. it's a fuckin amazing example of doublespeak.

[D_Raay]

You know it's one thing entirely to be complicit in this. Most of us just don't have much of a choice. The really important decisions, like backing a nation who reminds us that horrific images caused by their bombings provided by our taxpayer money are certainly not a rarity, are not under our control at all in our supposed democracy. But it's quite another to cheerlead such aggression and violence. You are a complete cad. Rubbish if you will.

[b i o n i c]

either way you toss it, both sides are fucking up the entire world over a tiny piece of land. give it a goddang rest, jerkies.

[saz]

I say: Let gaza burn till these fucks start coming to grips with reality.

sickening (n)

[fucktopgirl]

either way you toss it, both sides are fucking up the entire world over a tiny piece of land. give it a goddang rest, jerkies.

You see, this land WAS the land of the three major monotheism religion; Catholic,Jews and arabs. And they all live togethers for centuries.

SO , it is not both side who are fucking up, Israel is the one who start this in 1948. As for the present time, things are messy, really messy. Which side is the worst ? I think i can answer this one in a fraction of a second; Israel.
SO they should be the ones stoping and giving a bit of the land back to the palestinians. But let's be serious here, there is no turning back for the zionism. So what should the palestinians do? stop fighting? Even if they would draw up the white flag, Israel would continue with they massacre.

It is hard to comprehend,conceive, how in this 2009 year, colonization still exist and that it is not punish by the international community. Does the UN is still relevant, good and neutral? I have doubts about this one.

[kaiser soze]

Seeing that this is The holy Land , expel all the warmongers from both sides and let the peaceful live in peace.

This conflict is a disgrace to humanity

[b i o n i c]

You see, this land WAS the land of the three major monotheism religion; Catholic,Jews and arabs. And they all live togethers for centuries.

SO , it is not both side who are fucking up, Israel is the one who start this in 1948. As for the present time, things are messy, really messy. Which side is the worst ? I think i can answer this one in a fraction of a second; Israel.
SO they should be the ones stoping and giving a bit of the land back to the palestinians. But let's be serious here, there is no turning back for the zionism. So what should the palestinians do? stop fighting? Even if they would draw up the white flag, Israel would continue with they massacre.

It is hard to comprehend,conceive, how in this 2009 year, colonization still exist and that it is not punish by the international community. Does the UN is still relevant, good and neutral? I have doubts about this one.


the whole world is going to shit over this. both sides are wrong. FUCK holy lands.

[fucktopgirl]

^ I agree about the fact that holy land is B-shit.

BUt let keep that conflict in perspective, this is one in many genocide and crimes against humanity that did happen or still happening. So the world is not being fucked only by this...THat said, this one is really disgusting

I disagree with people who say that both side are wrong, i understand that this statement is base on the use of violence by both of them. BUT the major responsable is ISrael and this should never be forgotten.The instigator of this fucking mess are them. PAlestine are only figthing back and i have no problem to understand this kind of behavior.

[ToucanSpam]

Seeing that this is The holy Land , expel all the warmongers from both sides and let the peaceful live in peace.

This conflict is a disgrace to humanity

Agreed. I personally think Jerusalem and surrounding land should NOT belong to any nation-state because there is proof to say it belongs to a lot of different countries. As a result everyone wants a piece and will do whatever it takes to get that land, including brutal, disgraceful slaughtering of human life. I'm pretty sure that kind of brutality violates some of the basic principles of the religions that are related to 'the holy land'. I guess that doesn't matter much to fanatics.

This conflict isn't going to end well. I think this might escalate into something so atrocious that it will change things globally.

[kaiser soze]

I applaud the bravery of this girl.

"why are you shooting at kids?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5Die59jNlY&eurl

Shooting live rounds into a protest, suicide bombers will respond in the shops....it will always be a vicious cycle. (n)

[DroppinScience]

Jews in America are definitely having misgivings about Israel in this Gaza conflict. Jon Stewart is a very notable example, of course.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/01/11-0

Published on Sunday, January 11, 2009 by The San Francisco Chronicle
In US, War of Words Over Gaza

by Carla Marinucci

As war rages between Israel and Hamas in Gaza, and President-elect Barack Obama counts down the days until he has to deal directly with the conflict as the leader of the free world, a war to control the message is raging at home. And it's unusually fierce.


This week, some jarring events made headlines and illustrated the nature of that war:

-- Hugely popular comedian Jon Stewart, who is Jewish - birth name, Jonathan Stuart Leibowitz - was lauded by the Muslim Public Affairs Council this week for a scathing "Daily Show" segment entitled, "Israel Invades Gaza ... Missile Tov!"

The Comedy Central host, noting that rockets lobbed from Hamas into Israel are not new, posed the question, "Why does Israel feel that they have to react so strongly right now?"

Answer: the Obama inauguration. "I get it. ... Israel gets their bombing in before the Jan. 20 'hope and change' deadline ... it's like a civilian carnage Toyota-thon!" he said to roars of approval from his audience.

...

[DroppinScience]

Lest you think all Israelis are some monolithic war-mongering society...

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/01/11-2

Published on Sunday, January 11, 2009 by Inter Press Service
Some Israelis Cry Out for Peace

by Daan Bauwens

TEL AVIV - Another peace rally Saturday night brought together about a couple of thousand Israelis to demand an immediate end to the ongoing assault in Gaza. The demonstration was held in front of the Hakirya, the central command of the Israeli Defence Forces and the Ministry of Defence in the heart of Tel Aviv.

This was the third peace rally in three weeks. The first was held directly after the first air bombing of Gaza. It was attended by a few hundred protesters. At the second, more than 2,000 people came out on the streets.

"We have a humanistic and political message," says Yosef Douek of the movement Peace Now which organised the demonstration. 'Children in Gaza and Sderot want to live in peace and security. There is no use whatsoever to a continuation of these military actions."

Peace Now was joined by Israeli peace movement Gush Shalom, after the joint Palestinian-Israeli non-governmental organisation Alternative Information Centre made an appeal to make Jan. 10 "a huge global day of mobilisation against the Israeli war in Gaza."

"We are doing what we can to influence public opinion although I believe the effect of our actions is very limited," says Yosef Douek. "Because we live in a country where media aren't interested in breaking the political consensus. At the same time, the political approach to our message is non-existent. Everybody feels a patriotic urge to support the war, at least at this stage. I strongly believe this will change very soon. Public support will collapse, just as it did in previous wars."

"This war started with a clear feeling of triumph," says Ido Gideon, member of Meretz, a Jewish leftist party that supported the Israel Defensive Forces operation when it first began. "People in Israel thought that it would be a clean and fast operation to prevent Hamas from firing any more rockets at us. There was a clear feeling of vengeance amongst Israelis for what had happened that needed a response. Now things are getting out of hand, and vengeance has made place for disillusionment."

But the group is finding it difficult to gain support both within Israel and internationally. "Whenever there is an Israeli military action, all leftists around the globe become anti-Israeli," says Gideon. "All anti-war protests around the world are mingled with an anti-Israeli, anti-Jewish sentiment that is clearly aimed at the Jews' right to live in this country. That makes it hard to be a leftist in Israel. Because in the first place, it isolates the whole of Israel, in the second place, it isolates the forces that are trying to change it.

"I am making the same battle as them," Ido adds, "with one big difference: I'm making the battle inside of Israel. And whenever I go outside of Israel, I have to make another battle: the one of defending my right to be a Jew and live in this country."

"The difference now with previous wars is the disproportionate use of violence, which has led to enormous anger in the rest of the world," says Ronen Eidelman, an internationally known Jewish artist, writer and activist. He is engaged with linking art, culture and grassroots politics as editor of the online art and culture magazine Maarav, and is setting up several initiatives against the war in Gaza. "Last week we published a booklet with works of poets and artists against the war, which we distributed at the demonstrations. For some people, poetry is something they connect more to than an article in the newspaper."

Last Tuesday, as President Shimon Peres attended the dedication of Israel's national poet Bialik's house in Tel Aviv, a group of poets recited Bialik's poem 'On the Slaughter', and asked the attendees how they are able to "sip champagne while hundreds are being murdered in Gaza."

"These initiatives are part of a much broader anti-war movement," says Ronen Eidelman. "The cultural initiatives are only one thing out of a huge Israeli peace movement which is much larger than newspapers tend to say."

"It is time Israelis and Palestinians start talking about pain instead of guilt," says Ido Gideon. "Both sides have to realise that the holocaust is as much a part of the Israeli national psyche as is the Nakba for the Palestinians." Nakba refers to the mass deportation of a million Palestinians from their cities and villages, massacres of civilians, and the razing to the ground of hundreds of Palestinian villages when the state of Israel was founded in 1948.

"We have to find a way to make both stories live together in the same land, whether or not you hold one of both to be more true than the other," says Gideon.

[Carlos]

oh totally D.S - don't think anyone with half a brain could blame Jewish people as a whole - the criminals ordering the attacks on Gaza are about as far removed from Judaism, and a spiritual understanding as it's possible to get.

There are plenty of Jews just as opposed to the Israeli aggression as anyone else: as it only serves to fuel anti-semetic support. The prominent Jewish British Member of Parliament, Gerald Kauffman was one of the strongest of all MP's to condemn what Israel is doing, equating it to what the Nazi's did.

Unfortunately the Israeli citizens, and by extent IDF soldiers have been completely brainwashed and manipulated by their Government and press.
There is a complete lack of empathy towards the Palestinians, and essentially human life. They have been sold this myth that everything around them is against them, that every Palestinian and Arab wants to wipe them off the map. This is a feeling held by many, but no state is actively threatening Israel, and hasn't been for some time. No Iran does not pose any threat to Israel - it's more the other way round, as Israel shows it will bomb another state if it feels ther is even a hint of being threatened: as we saw last year when it bombed a supposed military target in Siria (again completely Illegal under international law).

Most people in the world just want a few simple things, this includes the arab world: that people can live without fear of oppression, and to determine their own destiny. So WHY doesn't Israel do this basic thing - get out of the the post 1967 war borders, which is the only legally recognised borders of Israel and Palestine. As this is the only basis on which peace can prevail.

For over 40 years now this has been the fuel for Arab aggression. Which we label terrorism, and of course it is. But so is bombing civilians, so is making over a million people live under degrading, and squalid conditions with not even the chance to make it better. State sponsored terrorism on a grand scale - ritual, habitual terrorism that especially the Gazan population have lived under for countless years.
The Israeli's have been brainwashed to accept this as normal - that somehow this will make them safe. When it only serves to make the 12 year old boy, who watched his family slaughtered by the IDF, the next generation of gunman and rocket makers. ITS SOOOOOO FUCKIN OBVIOUS!!!!

They could have done things differently - i.e NOT driving thousands from their homes and land, instead living in peace with those that were there, and not trying to run Jerusalem. But Zion mean 'to expand' or 'to propogate' and for some it is a Religious zeal that is about domination and control of 'their land'..... so they have taken more and more and more. In complete disregard for International law.

The horrific irony is the the organisation that essentially breathed life into Israel, the UN, is completely impertent to stop Israel, which obviously doesn't give 2 shits about it.

[hellojello]

Arundhuntni Roy - Come September Speech.
September 11th has a tragic resonance in the Middle East, too. On the 11th of September 1922, ignoring Arab outrage, the British government proclaimed a mandate in Palestine, a follow-up to the 1917 Balfour Declaration which imperial Britain issued, with its army massed outside the gates of Gaza. The Balfour Declaration promised European Zionists a national home for Jewish people. (At the time, the Empire on which the Sun Never Set was free to snatch and bequeath national homes like a school bully distributes marbles.)

How carelessly imperial power vivisected ancient civilizations. Palestine and Kashmir are imperial Britain's festering, blood-drenched gifts to the modem world. Both are fault lines in the raging international conflicts of today.

In 1937, Winston Churchill said of the Palestinians, I quote, "I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." That set the trend for the Israeli State's attitude towards the Palestinians. In 1969, Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir said, "Palestinians do not exist." Her successor, Prime Minister Levi Eschol said, "What are Palestinians? When I came here (to Palestine), there were 250,000 non-Jews, mainly Arabs and Bedouins. It was a desert, more than underdeveloped. Nothing." Prime Minister Menachem Begin called Palestinians "two-legged beasts." Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir called them "grasshoppers" who could be crushed. This is the language of Heads of State, not the words of ordinary people.

In 1947, the U.N. formally partitioned Palestine and allotted 55 per cent of Palestine's land to the Zionists. Within a year, they had captured 76 per cent. On the 14th of May 1948 the State of Israel was declared. Minutes after the declaration, the United States recognized Israel. The West Bank was annexed by Jordan. The Gaza strip came under Egyptian military control, and formally Palestine ceased to exist except in the minds and hearts of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian people who became refugees. In 1967, Israel occupied the West Bank and the Gaza strip.

Over the decades there have been uprisings, wars, intifadas. Tens of thousands have lost their lives. Accords and treaties have been signed. Cease-fires declared and violated. But the bloodshed doesn't end. Palestine still remains illegally occupied. Its people live in inhuman conditions, in virtual Bantustans, where they are subjected to collective punishments, twenty-four hour curfews, where they are humiliated and brutalized on a daily basis. They never know when their homes will be demolished, when their children will be shot, when their precious trees will be cut, when their roads will be closed, when they will be allowed to walk down to the market to buy food and medicine. And when they will not. They live with no semblance of dignity. With not much hope in sight. They have no control over their lands, their security, their movement, their communication, their water supply. So when accords are signed, and words like "autonomy" and even "statehood" bandied about, it's always worth asking: What sort of autonomy? What sort of State? What sort of rights will its citizens have?

Young Palestinians who cannot control their anger turn themselves into human bombs and haunt Israel's streets and public places, blowing themselves up, killing ordinary people, injecting terror into daily life, and eventually hardening both societies' suspicion and mutual hatred of each other. Each bombing invites merciless reprisal and even more hardship on Palestinian people. But then suicide bombing is an act of individual despair, not a revolutionary tactic. Although Palestinian attacks strike terror into Israeli citizens, they provide the perfect cover for the Israeli government's daily incursions into Palestinian territory, the perfect excuse for old-fashioned, nineteenth-century colonialism, dressed up as a new fashioned, twenty-first century "war".

Israel's staunchest political and military ally is and always has been the U.S. The U.S. government has blocked, along with Israel, almost every U.N. resolution that sought a peaceful, equitable solution to the conflict. It has supported almost every war that Israel has fought. When Israel attacks Palestine, it is American missiles that smash through Palestinian homes. And every year Israel receives several billion dollars from the United States - taxpayers money.

What lessons should we draw from this tragic conflict? Is it really impossible for Jewish people who suffered so cruelly themselves - more cruelly perhaps than any other people in history - to understand the vulnerability and the yearning of those whom they have displaced? Does extreme suffering always kindle cruelty? What hope does this leave the human race with? What will happen to the Palestinian people in the event of a victory? When a nation without a state eventually proclaims a state, what kind of state will it be? What horrors will be perpetrated under its flag? Is it a separate state that we should be fighting for or, the rights to a life of liberty and dignity for everyone regardless of their ethnicity or religion?

Palestine was once a secular bulwark in the Middle East. But now the weak, undemocratic, by all accounts corrupt but avowedly nonsectarian P.L.O., is losing ground to Hamas, which espouses an overtly sectarian ideology and fights in the name of Islam. To quote from their manifesto: "we will be its soldiers and the firewood of its fire, which will burn the enemies."

The world is called upon to condemn suicide bombers. But can we ignore the long road they have journeyed on before they have arrived at this destination? September 11, 1922 to September 11, 2002 - eighty years is a long time to have been waging war. Is there some advice the world can give the people of Palestine? Should they just take Golda Meir's suggestion and make a real effort not to exist?
I could never had said it more intelligently, eloquently, nor comprehensively myself.

[kaiser soze]

It is sad that so many who oppose these conflicts from all sides are ignored and silence.

They too are victims of war.