I dont want to spoil the thread about israel...

[Guy Incognito]

with my uneducated opinions but i felt i must make an observation which is sort of related to all thats being talked about.
If i am honest, i pay very little attention to whats going on outside my house, all i have seen on the news is a few planes and missiles whilst i try and get my daughter ready for nursery. I know its not a very good thing to admit that i dont keep up with current affairs but as long as i get thru the day knowing all my family are ok then thats all that matters to me, and if i can manage to watch match of the day then its a bonus.
I just wanted to say that i have just read the whole thing and have been educated times a million, shocked , scared and now feeling very bad that i was unaware of most of the situation. There were some viewpoints that completely changed my very uneducated view of the situation. Chro's resistance comment completely spun me out in particular.
My question is, by ignoring all of this (for what i consider to be good reasons) am i part of the problem, if so i fail to see what i can do to address this, surely just watching more news isnt gonna make any difference, is it?
I am not looking to offend here, I just wanted to discuss the fact that so many people are like me and if that has any effect on the way situations like israel are dealt with, broadcast, perceived.
Does this makes any sense to anyone?

[yeahwho]

I doubt I can enlighten you, since we're both pretty much in the same boat. I do have an average grasp on US political affairs. It's refreshing you've actually read some of those posts.

As an US citizen who adamantly opposed the Iraq invasion (since before the lie was sold to us) I can tell you our country has hamstrung it's political leverage. We've gone out of our way to spill blood in the middle east in area's that really have no political gain to us, we've engaged in the problem instead of any constructive solution.

I do not think what the "World" thinks even slightly effects bold murderers such as these two countries. If we demanded both leaders be rounded up and imprisoned for crimes against humanity... not take sides... perhaps that would work.

But like I said, we here in the US have fucked up any neutral stance by invading Iraq without provocation.

As of this post Bush still has a few more weeks to do whatever he wants, my fellow country men enjoy getting royally fucked over by their elected officials.

[Carlos]

Guy, a rather refreshing post - in contrast to ego filled posts by some.

Personally there's no easy answer really - I wouldn't say people that are not politically inclined, or rather do not have a disire to find out the details of world affairs are THE problem.

The problem is squarely placed on those governments and organisations that cause harm and fear to innocent people.

BUT They can only do these things because of ignorance. Once people do become educated about things, they by definition have more information to make better, and more informed decisions: which includes (to a degree) voting.

With regards to the Israeli/Palestine situation, it is about as complex as it gets: decades, even centuries of history. Each side can point to very dark moments committed by the other side.

However once you really start to look at the sequence of events in a truly objective way. Then the balacnce of inequality is breathtaking. Right from the original 'creation' of Israel: The Stern Gang a Zionist military (freedom fighters/or er. terrorist) organisation carried out a series of attacks - bombings and shootings - against the then British rule of what was then called 'The British Mandate of Palestine'.
Under American pressure and the Stern Gang's terrorist activities The british relinquished control and a UN partition plan was instigated in 1947...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_gang

Which then resulted in Arabs being driven from various towns and villages, and the started the killing of woman and children: which created a mass exodus of refugees, now called Gaza.

With Other Arab countries stepping in to defend them.

This is just the start, there was the 2nd major conflict of 67, in which after being threatened by military attck from by Siria/Egypt/and Jordan, Israel used it's advanced military to strike pre-emptive strikes on Sirian airforce, and essenitally in 6 days crushed the Arab forces, and invaded and held to this day the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, eastern Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights: all NOT part of what the UN original partition agreement entitled Israel to have i.e it's not Israel.

And so the next phase unfolds: with the whole Islamic world seeing there are 1 rule regarding international law for Israel (which represents western power in the middle east) and another for nations such as... er Iraq (brake UN law = invasion). No other nation has been in breach of so many UN resolutions and laws, or defied one for so long (42 years now!!!!!!!!!!!). It show complete inpunity to the very body that created it!! and the things it is supposed to stand for, all in the name of maintaing 'Israel'. Which is solely based on a RELIGIOUS IDEOLOGY!!!! the notion of people deserving to live somewhere based on a book, which they are willing to kill and mame woman and children to uphold is beyond belief!

There is only 1 hope. That Israel gets out of it's illegal land siezed in 1967. Which even after agreeing to do so over 10 years ago now with Arrafat, they have stalled and done everything possible to inflame the situation: including in-prisoning Arrafat and essesntially killing him off.. leading to the rise of power of Hamas.. then not acknowledging them once elected and withholding millions of dollars of palestinian money stoppig hamas paying anyone working for the governemnt. leading to the degradation of Gaza to the point it was before the current conflict.

This is scratching the surfice, but hopefully sheds some light on the complexity, and why there is no easy solution. Also why this has been the spark that created the anger and desire for Muslims to attack western interests. The hypocracy is very very blatent, unless you only get your feed of information from certain right wing media, that have been so heavily biased towards Isarel (especially in America)... but when you get the un-edited picture coming out of Gaza that they do on the Arab channels, rather than sanitised news reels. The hypocracy, and inequality is incomprehendable, but un-mistakeable!!!


My question is, by ignoring all of this (for what i consider to be good reasons) am i part of the problem, if so i fail to see what i can do to address this, surely just watching more news isnt gonna make any difference, is it?

I think it's a very natural reaction for a lot. Maybe the very reason that you do not pay much attention is the very same thing I am saying: the mainstream news is not representative, or is superficial in the way it deals with things.
Bottom line though, as long as you cool with yaself, and those around you, then can't really go wrong :)

[D_Raay]

Be at peace with the fact that you never had a choice.

If you sense a way/decision you can make that can make a difference somehow then act upon it, for instance I will NOT shop at Walmart.

Show me the world as I'd love to see it.

[yeahwho]

Be at peace with the fact that you never had a choice.

If you sense a way/decision you can make that can make a difference somehow then act upon it, for instance I will NOT shop at Walmart.

Show me the world as I'd love to see it.

Amen (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=1640188&postcount=13)