Vaccine Nation

[fucktopgirl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TdSp3hyuHk&feature=PlayList&p=C4ED2C5EE200C207&index=0&playnext=1

Good documentary on vaccination.
Can make you think twice about the issue!

[HAL 9000]

The whole anti vaccination thing seems to be based on a couple of lies which are easily cleared up.

Thimerosal does not contain toxic Mercury (aka Methylmercury) it contains Ethylmercury which is not the same thing and is harmless. It seems much of this antivaccination thing is based on the fact that the substances have similar sounding names and thus can be confused by those who are taken in by their pseudoscientific crap.

Furthermore, Thimerosal IS NOT EVEN IN VACCINES (since 1997). The removal of Thimerosal from vaccines had no impact of the rate of diagnosis of Autism or other conditions attribued to vaccines.

The whole anti-vaccine thing is a terrible scam that is killing children - not just the children of those who dont get their kids vaccinated but even those parents who do because of the lost 'herd effect'.

As a father, this really makes me angry. It is so stupid because the central claims of the movement are easy to check and are clearly lies. It is not a subjective issue - vaccines do not contain toxic metals - FACT.

[ms.peachy]

Mostly white, mostly fortunate people who live in comfortable countries where they never really have to confront the consequences of infectious disease should be forced to go live for a while in mostly brown, mostly poor parts of the globe where parents have to watch children dying slowly day by day of easily preventable diseases, before they are allowed to open their mouths for half a second to talk rubbish about how 'bad' vaccines are.

Just my opinion, of course.

[fucktopgirl]

^:rolleyes:

Ya know, i think that before shooting human population with toxics stuff, they should, in the case of the third world countries, give them access to clean water and good sanitation. That should help to eliminate diseases too. You give them a shot for, let say, cholera, but you don't change what is causing the disease to manifest.

Maybe vaccination can be helpful but in general, what help human population is civilization, sanitation and access to clean water supply.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5WTaLnDPY4

This clip is an interview with larry king and an actress talking about autism and vaccination. There seem to be a correlation between the two.
Also, the mandatory number of shots skyrocket in the last 20 years.

Why?

Also, on has to keep in mind that pharmaceutical companies make millions and millions of dollars in profit with this business...

Somebody need to make a study, objective one with vaccinated kids and unvaccinated and follow them for the first 10-15 years of their lives. Just to see.

[ms.peachy]

This clip is an interview with larry king and an actress talking about autism and vaccination. There seem to be a correlation between the two.


First of all, correlation is not causation.

Find one shred of peer-reviewed and reputably published scientific evidence that has passed scrutiny linking vaccines to autism. Just one will do. Actual legitimate evidence please, not some actress talking to Larry King, OK?

[HAL 9000]

Somebody need to make a study, objective one with vaccinated kids and unvaccinated and follow them for the first 10-15 years of their lives. Just to see.

They have - 10 year study released this week shows no correlation beyond that which one would expect through randomness.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/123/2/475

There is no link here - it is all made up.

Please do not base parental decisions on the ravings of Jenny McCarthy. She used to think her child was an Indigo Child rather than autistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_Children) now autism and vaccines are her new thing.
If you want to look into this matter, find an article in a peer reviewed journal (like the one above) rather than posting youtube videos of interviews with Playboy bunnies. It is not that a playboy bunny dont have a viewpoint that is as valid as anyone elses, more that in this case, Miss McCarthy does not seem to be familiar with the scientific method and has no evidence to support her wild and dangerous claims.

As I said above - all the claims of the anti-vaccinationists are really easy to look into and verify - and it turns out the whole movement is about scaremongering and lies. I would invite you to examine the evidence yourself (dont use youtube)

[fucktopgirl]

They have - 10 year study released this week shows no correlation beyond that which one would expect through randomness.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/123/2/475

There is no link here - it is all made up.

This study don't say nothing really, the sampling might not be in all strata of the society. ONe sutdy like that mean nothing to me, where is the group of kids not exposed to toxics component?

When i talk about a study , it is to follow a sampling of kids from different social background and you follow them from the first day of life until , maybe 10-15 years old. Monitoring all the vaccins they have versu a sampling of kids who don't have vaccins. Then you collect info about their health and all that, just to see . And this would be an independant study.

It would be even better to follow them through adulthood. This is a rfeal freaking study.






Please do not base parental decisions on the ravings of Jenny McCarthy. She used to think her child was an Indigo Child rather than autistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_Children) now autism and vaccines are her new thing.
If you want to look into this matter, find an article in a peer reviewed journal (like the one above) rather than posting youtube videos of interviews with Playboy bunnies. It is not that a playboy bunny dont have a viewpoint that is as valid as anyone elses, more that in this case, Miss McCarthy does not seem to be familiar with the scientific method and has no evidence to support her wild and dangerous claims.

Heh, no worry, i don`t base anything on a sole other human being, but what i found interesting in her saying was:

1. The fact that the mandatory vaccins that a kids suppose to have in his-her life until like 10 yaers old had triple.

2. That no doctor is able to say precisely why.

3. That the shot are too numerous for a little kiddo who just came into this world. So unatural.

So, i don't really give a shit if that woman did dance and flash her boobs in her life at one time. I think she kinda make sense a bit with her questions.



As I said above - all the claims of the anti-vaccinationists are really easy to look into and verify - and it turns out the whole movement is about scaremongering and lies. I would invite you to examine the evidence yourself (dont use youtube)[/QUOTE]


Urm, i did read lots and lots of info on the matter and i did mae my decision a while ago about vaccination. I don't totally denied all the benefits but i am suspicious of the real benefits in the end.

If i go back in time, when i was younger, it was ok to have chicken pox and to have the flu. The doctor was saying that it was good for the immune system, giving it a boost.

Now, nope, you have to get a shot, and how so? For me, this change is relate to the business of vaccins. Profit at the expense of human health.

A kid is born and he have lots of shot in his first day in this world, his cells are attacked with foreign dangerous substances, it seem just wrong. But the strong ones with be OK, the weakers ones will suffer the consequences of this.

This is basically the major problem of vaccins, too much.


Another example is the vaccin for the HPV virus., my girl was supposed to have the shot this year, this is something that you can contract when you HAVE SEX. She is 9 years old. Add to this that the vaccin is good for like 5 years approx. So another shot will be needed. But that not all, they don't now how the body will react to it, they, my girl and her group of age, are guinea-pig.

I refuse.

Vaccination , the full scale operation that we witness today,is active for the last 50 years, we don't know yet what the damage will do to the human body. Maybe it did help eradicated some disease but my feeling is that it help create more degenerative diseases, autism...

The main thing is the excessive use of vaccins for anything.

[taquitos]

i wonder if they had the idea for the movie or the title first

[HAL 9000]

This study don't say nothing really, the sampling might not be in all strata of the society. ONe sutdy like that mean nothing to me, where is the group of kids not exposed to toxics component?

When i talk about a study , it is to follow a sampling of kids from different social background and you follow them from the first day of life until , maybe 10-15 years old. Monitoring all the vaccins they have versu a sampling of kids who don't have vaccins. Then you collect info about their health and all that, just to see . And this would be an independant study.

It would be even better to follow them through adulthood. This is a rfeal freaking study.



I agree that one can always do more elaborate and expensive studies. The key here is that every study coming out seems to show the same thing - no link between vaccines or the ingredients of vaccines and neurological conditions like autism.

Heh, no worry, i don`t base anything on a sole other human being, but what i found interesting in her saying was:

1. The fact that the mandatory vaccins that a kids suppose to have in his-her life until like 10 yaers old had triple.

2. That no doctor is able to say precisely why.

3. That the shot are too numerous for a little kiddo who just came into this world. So unatural.

So, i don't really give a shit if that woman did dance and flash her boobs in her life at one time. I think she kinda make sense a bit with her questions.


Glad to hear it (y)

A few points
1. I dont know if 1 is true or not - probably worth checking out from a non biased source.

2. This is obviously not true, try asking one!

3. Vaccines are unnatural. Nature's way is for disease to kill those without a natural immunity until resistent characteristics build up in the gene pool.

However, if we are going to try as a society to value each life and try to protect it with technology then so be it. It is a shame though because people are dying right now because of the anti-vaccination movement. This particular branch of pseudoscience has a genuine body count.

It is good that you have researched this, just make sure that the sources you use have rigorously followed the scientific method (hence use peer reviewed journals not youtube or google)

[Documad]

Find one shred of peer-reviewed and reputably published scientific evidence that has passed scrutiny linking vaccines to autism. Just one will do. Actual legitimate evidence please, not some actress talking to Larry King, OK?
Hello? What more do you need than Jenny McCarthy's personal opinion? She's an expert. I know because I've seen her on all the talk shows.

[Bob]

Hello? What more do you need than Jenny McCarthy's personal opinion? She's an expert. I know because I've seen her on all the talk shows.

larry king once listened to her. king!

[Documad]

larry king once listened to her. king!

Exactly! Case closed!

What the fuck is wrong with Peachy???

[fucktopgirl]

^ WOW, you guys line jenny.

But what about the documentary. Nobody really talk about it.

[HAL 9000]

Didn’t really watch the documentary as is was made by the AIDS DENIALIST and alternative health fraud Gary Null.

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/null.html (http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/null.html)

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2008/04/now_its_officialgary_null_hiv.php (http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2008/04/now_its_officialgary_null_hiv.php)

http://www.garynull.com/GNbooks.php


Edit – I would normally consider it a logical fallacy to assume because a person is wrong about A they are also wrong about ‘B’ (Poisoning the Well Fallacy or some form of ad hominem). In this case though it is relevant because the guy is saying that traditional / ‘evidence based’ medicine does not work in order to create a market for his bogus pills and supplements (as shown here - http://www.gnhealthyliving.com/Scripts/default.asp).

[ms.peachy]

made by the AIDS DENIALIST and alternative health fraud Gary Null.


Oh lordy, I didn't realise that nutjob was behind this. I probably should have guessed though.

[fucktopgirl]

Heh, the guy just like alternative medecine , sport, vitamines, yoga. He don't like pharmaceutical drugs and companies because they do exist to make profit.

So they objective is not your health per se, but to make monayyyyy!

I think it is a ok view.

About the aids things, i have to go check the video.

[ms.peachy]

He is a fraud and a peddler of pseudoscience who misrepresents himself and his qualifications, and makes a ton of money off of vulnerable, desperate people.

[fucktopgirl]

^ha, that what pharmaceutical companies does too!

Being healthy without the main stream health system is alright, ya know.
Exercice, eating good food, having a good way of thinking , eliminating stress is all good for you.

I don't think his view is hurting anyone, if you don't like it, just change the channel.

[HAL 9000]

Heh, the guy just like alternative medecine , sport, vitamines, yoga. He don't like pharmaceutical drugs and companies because they do exist to make profit.

So they objective is not your health per se, but to make monayyyyy!

I think it is a ok view.

About the aids things, i have to go check the video.

It is true that pharmaceuticals seek to make money, but that does not make them evil! They are heavily regulated which means all the treatments they (and the health professionals) offer have to undergo two tests (hence evidence based medicine).

1. They have to demonstrate that they offer a health benefit greater than that of a similarly administered placebo

2. They have to understand the side effects and benefits of any treatment.

The word 'alternative' in front of a health pill or supplement means it has FAILED TEST 1 and has not had to undergo test 2. I wonder what studies have been done on the long term impact of 'Dr' Null's "Detox package" or his "Brainy Pills". Whilst vaccines have been shown not to cause things like autism, these treatments have not been tested at all? So here is the issue - how is it that so many people including yourself, end up being more suspicious of the tested and regulated treatments than the untested and unregulated ones? Everyone in the industry is seeking to make money, which is why controls, testing, monitoring, peer review and regulation are important - vaccines are subject to such a regulatory regime.

This is not to say that alternative treatment does not have a place in medicine, indeed, any doctor will tell you the benefit of healthy eating, stress reduction and exercise (and placebo treatments may have a place too), but what guys like this do is tell you not to take treatments that have been proven to be effective and are subject to tight regulation and instead buy their products which can not been shown to have benefits and which no understanding of side effects exist. He makes money by telling you to stop well regulated effective treatments and start unregulated ineffective ones.

That does not seem harmless to me and in the case of the vaccine bullshit - people (mostly children) are getting sick and dying as a result.

[ms.peachy]

That does not seem harmless to me and in the case of the vaccine bullshit - people (mostly children) are getting sick and dying as a result.

Spot on. People not vaccinating their children puts my child's health at risk as a result, by compromising herd immunity. I have zero patience for that.

[fucktopgirl]

People rely too much on the medical system for their health. Too much pills are swallow , and this for anything.

There is an exces of pills consumption, and this at an early age. The herds things might be true but ya know this is the only argument that people who believe in vaccin are saying, ALL the time.

Like i said before, we have to be aware that nowadays, there is too much vaccins , too soon and for about anything. So, for me, this is a proof of the will to make profit. Vaccins for cold and chicken pox, that the proof that something wrong.


Hal9000, i am suspicious of the drugs companies because all their studies are back by them, so no objectivity there. Their regulated, their hired the scientifics who will make the report. I have no confidence whatsoever in big corporation because they don't care about human health really, they care about PROFIT.

SO, maybe vaccins did some good at one time, but now, they pushed it too far in my opinion.

Oh, Misspeachy, if you have no patience for people who don't have the same view as you do, don't waste your time, go on...Get your kids all the shots and be safe and happy.

To each their own.

[HAL 9000]

To each their own.

Unfortunately not because your actions (assuming you are not having your kid(s) vaccinated) are increasing the chances of my kids getting sick. Also you do not own your children so much as have a duty of care – it is not fair for them to be put in danger by your beliefs, they are innocent.

I am not saying all vaccines are necessary – you may be correct in saying that there are too many on the market. In the UK there is a publicly run vaccination program covering just the essentials (I don’t think Chicken Pox is included but I could be wrong) – I guess there is something similar where you live and you and your family should certainly have those.

I don’t know much about what vaccines available but if a vaccine against chicken pox is available and effective then great – getting chicken pox is not nice and it is dangerous (you can die of it). I suspect the technology did not exist for such a vaccine when we were younger which is why you never had it.


Like i said before, we have to be aware that nowadays, there is too much vaccins , too soon and for about anything. So, for me, this is a proof of the will to make profit. Vaccins for cold and chicken pox, that the proof that something wrong.



It is not proof that something is wrong unless you can point to an independent, double blind and peer reviewed study demonstrating that these vaccines are not effective (or at least not cost effective). If you can do this, then you are correct but if no such data exists then you are probably wrong! Rather than watching youtube vids – you should be looking for and reading these papers, find the study that backs your position or admit you are probably wrong.



There is an exces of pills consumption, and this at an early age. The herds things might be true but ya know this is the only argument that people who believe in vaccin are saying, ALL the time.



You cant blame people for repeatedly using an argument that is true! Lets be clear – responsible people are put in danger by others who are not getting vaccinated. We are angry about it – that is why they keep going on about it.

I dont drink and drive and I would sure be angry at the drunk driver who runs down my kids.

[fucktopgirl]

[QUOTE=HAL 9000;1645681]Unfortunately not because your actions (assuming you are not having your kid(s) vaccinated) are increasing the chances of my kids getting sick. Also you do not own your children so much as have a duty of care – it is not fair for them to be put in danger by your beliefs, they are innocent.

BUllshit, if your kid is vaccinated, well he is OK. He got the immunization , right? So the only kid at risk would be mine. Your argument is one of culpability and i refuse to feel culpable. I just take my own kid health in my hand and it is my right to not join this movement of fears against disease.
In our society everyone suffer from hypochondria, i choose not too.





I don’t know much about what vaccines available but if a vaccine against chicken pox is available and effective then great – getting chicken pox is not nice and it is dangerous (you can die of it). I suspect the technology did not exist for such a vaccine when we were younger which is why you never had it.


Did you ever heard about infant sickeness, like measle, chicken pox, the slap chee syndrome.... Thoses are disease that a kid shoud get in order to boost his/her immune system NATURALLY. They are ok to get and good for you, anyway that what doctor where saying back in the days. YOu can die of anything, death is a natural process in humanity. It happen and it is ok. We cannot live forever. But rarely i'v heard people dying of chicken pox in my life. Everybody , all my friend did have it and no big deal. Those disease are there, naturally and kids who fight it will have a stronger immune system wihtout the toxic shit in the vaccins.

It is also dangerous to cross the street , ya know, but we do it everyday.


It is not proof that something is wrong unless you can point to an independent, double blind and peer reviewed study demonstrating that these vaccines are not effective (or at least not cost effective). If you can do this, then you are correct but if no such data exists then you are probably wrong! Rather than watching youtube vids – you should be looking for and reading these papers, find the study that backs your position or admit you are probably wrong.


Well, that is the main problem , there is no independant study and if one happen to exist, the report will not get main stream attention. Pharmaceutical companies spend millions every years in lobbying and getting add for their drugs and eradicating every study that will harm their business.

So, yeah, there is not a lot of data about the negative effect of vaccines because thoses are not allowed to come to life. There must be studies , independant ones, but for a simple citizen like me and you, it is hard to acces it.



You cant blame people for repeatedly using an argument that is true! Lets be clear – responsible people are put in danger by others who are not getting vaccinated. We are angry about it – that is why they keep going on about it.

I dont drink and drive and I would sure be angry at the drunk driver who runs down my kids.


I am angry that people have an uterly blind faith in the drugs and vaccins companies. That they believe that they,drugs companies, care about your kid health. They do not. They don't give a shit at the end of the day. Like i said, maybe vaccination start with a genuine thought but it is no longer this state of mind that motivate the making of vaccins and drugs, it is all about $$$$

Heh, don't compare me to a drunk driver, that is just the worst analogy someone could possibly choose. I don't put anyone else in danger because my kid and others are not getting this shit into their blood stream. If you kid is arm with the vaccin , if the disease come along, his/her body will recognise the disease and be OK , right?

So, i will not feel bad about my decision, not at all .

[HAL 9000]

BUllshit, if your kid is vaccinated, well he is OK. He got the immunization , right? So the only kid at risk would be mine.

.....

Heh, don't compare me to a drunk driver, that is just the worst analogy someone could possibly choose. I don't put anyone else in danger because my kid and others are not getting this shit into their blood stream. If you kid is arm with the vaccin , if the disease come along, his/her body will recognise the disease and be OK , right?

So, i will not feel bad about my decision, not at all .

I'm sorry but this is just not true. Vaccinations can never be 100% effective - that is why it is important that everyone has them because the protection comes from achieving the Herd Immunity Threshold in a population because at this point disease cannot spread.

Did you ever heard about infant sickeness, like measle, chicken pox, the slap chee syndrome.... Thoses are disease that a kid shoud get in order to boost his/her immune system NATURALLY. They are ok to get and good for you, anyway that what doctor where saying back in the days. YOu can die of anything, death is a natural process in humanity. It happen and it is ok. We cannot live forever. But rarely i'v heard people dying of chicken pox in my life. Everybody , all my friend did have it and no big deal. Those disease are there, naturally and kids who fight it will have a stronger immune system wihtout the toxic shit in the vaccins.


Yes it is true that people die. But if you can reduce the risk of people dying young then why not do it? Natural does not equal good , medical advances have made huge improvements to peoples longevity and morbidity - to reject medical science on the grounds it is unnatural seems silly.

For example, medical technology has greatly reduced the number of women who die during childbirth - would you condemn this as unnatural?

Health needs regulation, and if you are not satisfied with the regulatory controls in place, investigate your local health regulator rather than just following some conspircy theory you read on the net.

Well, that is the main problem , there is no independant study and if one happen to exist, the report will not get main stream attention. Pharmaceutical companies spend millions every years in lobbying and getting add for their drugs and eradicating every study that will harm their business.

So, yeah, there is not a lot of data about the negative effect of vaccines because thoses are not allowed to come to life. There must be studies , independant ones, but for a simple citizen like me and you, it is hard to acces it.


Just reread what your wrote - this is a paranoid delusion. The world is not like this, we are not in the Matrix or Enemy of the State - this is the real world. What evidence do you have for this, I have never struggled to access any medical studies - for example the original study that linked MMR to Autism can be read here - http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673697110960/fulltext in one of the worlds premier medical journals, 'The Lancet'. This study was peer reviewed and the link between MMR and autism thoroughly debunked (not least because this is a study of just 12 children). The point is the study is not covered up.

[ms.peachy]

Forget it. There is no point to arguing science and logic with someone who is willfully apathetic and ignorant to both. Sadly such thickness means children's lives are put at risk, for no reason.

[fucktopgirl]

[QUOTE=HAL 9000;1645688]I'm sorry but this is just not true. Vaccinations can never be 100% effective - that is why it is important that everyone has them because the protection comes from achieving the Herd Immunity Threshold in a population because at this point disease cannot spread.

I don't buy that, if you kid ge the shot, he is safe otherwise why you would give him/her vaccins. Herd immunity, hard time to believe in this sole argument that pro-vaccins people say.




For example, medical technology has greatly reduced the number of women who die during childbirth - would you condemn this as unnatural?

Nope, this is ok, i mean no problem there. Vaccinations is quite different , they injected toxic substance into the blood stream, some of thoses substances are quite deadly and toxics.

Health needs regulation, and if you are not satisfied with the regulatory controls in place, investigate your local health regulator rather than just following some conspircy theory you read on the net.



Hahaha, and then we are there, CONSPIRACY, just because i have a different view. I could say the same, be carefull of what you read on the net, you are too brainwashed by the state.

mehh



Just reread what your wrote - this is a paranoid delusion. The world is not like this, we are not in the Matrix or Enemy of the State - this is the real world. What evidence do you have for this, I have never struggled to access any medical studies - for example the original study that linked MMR to Autism can be read here - http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673697110960/fulltext in one of the worlds premier medical journals, 'The Lancet'. This study was peer reviewed and the link between MMR and autism thoroughly debunked (not least because this is a study of just 12 children). The point is the study is not covered up.

THe world is all about, nowadays, money and profit mainly, i am not delusional because i said that or that i say that pharmaceutical companies spend lots of money on lobbying. It is just a fact.
Do you know what lobbying is? If so, well, how come they spend millions on that activity?


At the end, we need more proof , more researchs not back up by drugs companies , to debate this properly, so until then, i will believe , like a millions of others, that vaccins are not all that great. I am not totally against it but, i have some reserve about the issue.

[fucktopgirl]

Forget it. There is no point to arguing science and logic with someone who is willfully apathetic and ignorant to both. Sadly such thickness means children's lives are put at risk, for no reason.


Personnal attack, well, i see the degree of your conscience...So much wisdom and maturity.

Let me throw back at you your insults, if you please

I feel the same way toward you, i think you are quite stupid and constipated. And then because people who cannot be critic of what the system impose us, and that have blind faith,kids health are at risk.

Tata !!

[ms.peachy]

Personnal attack, well, i see the degree of your conscience...So much wisdom and maturity.

Let me throw back at you your insults, if you please

I feel the same way toward you, i think you are quite stupid and constipated. And then because people who cannot be critic of what the system impose us, and that have blind faith,kids health are at risk.

Tata !!

You can take it as a personal attack if you like. I was referring to pretty much everyone who buys into the entire anti-vaccine nonsense, so if you want to be offended on everyone's behalf, go right ahead.

I never used the word 'stupid'. I said "willfully apathetic and ignorant." There is a difference. If you're not stupid, you'll be able to see that. And if you are not willfully apathetic and ignorant, you'll maybe educate yourself a bit about how vaccines actually work, and what herd immunity is, and why it matters.

[HAL 9000]

FTG, This will be my last post on the topic – it has gone on too long already. I am just trying to help you see the value of the scientific method as a tool for filtering data, I may well have failed at that but it was worth a shot. Just for clarification, I was not saying you are as bad as a drunk driver, my point was just that I am powerless to protect myself and my family from disease if others do not vaccinate (in case there was any misunderstanding).

I don’t know why you find the concept of Herd Immunity hard to believe, it seems a straight forward concept – as I do not know what the difficulty you have is, I will just post a link that may help you - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_modelling_in_epidemiology#The_mathema tics_of_mass_vaccination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_modelling_in_epidemiology#The_mathema tics_of_mass_vaccination)

This study shows that infection in vaccinated children increases when the level of vaccination in the population drops - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10404911 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10404911)

You say vaccines contain toxic and deadly substances and this is just does not seem to be true – I presume you mean Thiomersal which is neither toxic nor in vaccines (at least in the US and Europe). If you name the substance you are concerned about – I would be happy to help scan the scientific literature for more information.

You raised the question as to which one of us is brainwashed. The reason I know it is you and not me is that my information is filtered by the scientific method and represents the scientific consensus. I have demonstrated to you that anti-pharma studies are not suppressed and can be easily found in the literature which should help dissuade you from this idea that there is an enormous conspiracy at play.

The reason that it is you and not me that is buying into a conspiracy theory is that my view does not require a conspiracy. I am saying that thousands of independent scientists working in universities and labs around the world are doing good science, writing their theses and reporting their results while commenting on others as they always have done. You are saying that all these scientists are being paid, blackmailed or manipulated to change or hide their data whilst not reporting this enormous crime to the media or law enforcement. Do you see why it is your view that is the conspiracy and not mine? It is not just that you have a different view.

I am aware of lobbying and that it is a tool for companies to move regulation in their favour – I don’t like it either. It does not mean, however, that regulation is ineffective or that the scientific method cannot be trusted or that the pharmaceutical industry is poisoning people. By all means voice your concerns regarding this practice, just don’t go overboard and end up hurting yourself or your family.

Wikipedia seems to have a lot of good data on these issues – I would recommend it as a useful tool with a good overview. Here are some more links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_controversy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_controversy)

[fucktopgirl]

Anyway, enough of blablabla and blahhhh.

I have my opinion, you have yours. Fine. The end.

Oh and Misspeachy, your THICKNESS is lovely...

[fucktopgirl]

Check it out, you want science, you have , oh but it is on youtube, must be a biased source of info,right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5WNLOjmAiw&feature=related

[Bob]

[QUOTE]

I don't buy that, if you kid ge the shot, he is safe otherwise why you would give him/her vaccins. Herd immunity, hard time to believe in this sole argument that pro-vaccins people say.


i get so frustrated every time you say this. why exactly don't you buy it? the herd immunity thing is an actual, real thing, it's been proven with experiments. if there's a group of 10 people, and all 10 are vaccinated, then they're as safe as the vaccine can make them. if 2 of them are not vaccinated, then the 8 others are more at risk because vaccines are not 100% effective and the 2 non-vaccinated people are giving the disease a stronger chance to enter the group.

all you can ever say about this is "well vaccines shouldn't work like that, if you're vaccinated you should be safe" but you are objectively wrong about this, because vaccines don't work like that. i don't understand why you don't understand this or what you're basing your opinion on here. it just sounds like you don't want to believe it. what evidence do you have exactly that the herd immunity argument is wrong other than "vaccines should be more effective"?

[yeahwho]

fucktopgirl,

Until you've been exposed to a highly contagious disease prevented by an extremely safe vaccine, you have prejudice and 0 experience. I have experienced a Pertussis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertussis) outbreak in my own family, my sister even though she was vaccinated has an odd blood type, somebody from Idaho who wasn't vaccinated was having a coughing fit while purchasing something from her at her job at the mall. She became deadly ill and stayed ill for months. It was hard to diagnose and all of the top doctors missed it. She got help from the low income public service clinic who document movements of whooping cough much more stringently. Which says volumes about who gets exposed the most to these deadly diseases.

Her husband, daughter and son were all put on erythromycin (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/519699) as a precaution. All of her close contacts for the initial 3 weeks she was contagious were notified. It's gravely serious what your saying and believing here, life and death serious. I actually believe you are the one who is callous.

[fucktopgirl]

fucktopgirl,

Until you've been exposed to a highly contagious disease prevented by an extremely safe vaccine, you have prejudice and 0 experience. I have experienced a Pertussis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertussis) outbreak in my own family, my sister even though she was vaccinated has an odd blood type, somebody from Idaho who wasn't vaccinated was having a coughing fit while purchasing something from her at her job at the mall. She became deadly ill and stayed ill for months. It was hard to diagnose and all of the top doctors missed it. She got help from the low income public service clinic who document movements of whooping cough much more stringently. Which says volumes about who gets exposed the most to these deadly diseases.

Her husband, daughter and son were all put on erythromycin (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/519699) as a precaution. All of her close contacts for the initial 3 weeks she was contagious were notified. It's gravely serious what your saying and believing here, life and death serious. I actually believe you are the one who is callous.

Well, i am sorry to hear that.

It is not all black and white, i suppose.

I think i have to resume my opinion quickly here: What mostly repulse me about vaccins nowadays is the number of disease mix in one shot and the number of shot that one kid has to have before one year old and until he/her is a teenager. If you did check the video i put about the cells reacting to mercury , well you will understand my concern. Thimerosal still is in vaccins and this toxic do some damage.

So, like i said in earlier post, i don't deny totally the vaccins but i have some concern about what they put in the shot . Also, i think there is too many vaccins out there for just about anything. I do believe that lots of money are made on this type of business and that the health of people are not always the main focus of pharmaceutical companies, especially with the lobbying thing.

So, i think people who have kids should choose the vaccins they want to give and not give them all. A little baby who have 9 different diseases in his body in one day, is a bit insane. Too much nasty stuff in one time.


Maybe some middle ground would be the best .

[Documad]

I don't understand science, but I have a passing familiarity with history. I'm glad that my parents and my friends' parents were able to get me immunized, I'm glad they chose to do it, and I'm glad my school required proof of immunization before we enrolled each year.

A fair number of the older people in my family had polio. I had a fear of polio as a kid, even though I knew I'd had vaccine to prevent it.

[HAL 9000]

Check it out, you want science, you have , oh but it is on youtube, must be a biased source of info,right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5WNLOjmAiw&feature=related

This is why youtube is a poor source of information you would be better of reading the study itself (http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/leong.pdf (http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/leong.pdf)). The video shows that mercury is harmful to brain cells – a fact which is not in dispute.

What is misleading is for this to be presented as being relevant to the vaccine debate. The ingredient in Thimerisal is not Mercury (Hg) but Ethylmercury (C2H5Hg+). They have similar sounding names but are not at all the same thing – for example Chlorine (Cl) is a highly toxic substance however Sodium Choride (SaCl) is table salt.

The video itself is not misleading but it has been given a title ‘Mercury in Vaccines Cause Brain Cell Damage’ which is very misleading as Thimerisal does not contain the substance used in the video. You will note that the narrator refers to Mercury in the context of tooth fillings not vaccines suggesting a legitimate video has been hijacked by an anti-vaccine nut.

And has I have pointed out repeatedly, Thimerisal is not used in vaccines anymore. You do not need to take my word for this – this information is freely available to everyone.

So as you can see, the youtube video has been mislabelled to mislead the viewer and I repeat the need to use caution on youtube.

Let us be clear – (Pure and toxic) Mercury is not in Thimerisal. Thimerisal is not in western vaccines.

[Documad]

I'm disturbed at the prospect of a parent who makes critical health care decisions for his/her kid (and other kids) based upon youtube videos.

It's starting to sink in now that there must be large numbers of parents who are in that same camp. My oh my.

[Knuckles]

Well, i am sorry to hear that.


What mostly repulse me about vaccins nowadays is the number of disease mix in one shot and the number of shot that one kid has to have before one year old and until he/her is a teenager.

Just use an alternative schedule (http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/archives/2007_08_01_archive.asp).


This is a quote from Dr. Sears.

The main difference in my suggested alternative vaccine schedule is it spreads the infant vaccines out over the first few years of life, instead of bunching them all up in the first 18 months. It gives fewer vaccines at a time, gives the most important vaccines first, and slightly delays the less important vaccines. But ultimately the end result is the same - a fully vaccinated child. What are the benefits of my alternative schedule compared to the standard one?

This is what my wife and I chose for our children.

[Lyman Zerga]

i hardly read this thread

but my grandma died from a medical abuse, hope that helps!

[EN[i]GMA]

Heh, the guy just like alternative medecine , sport, vitamines, yoga. He don't like pharmaceutical drugs and companies because they do exist to make profit.

So they objective is not your health per se, but to make monayyyyy!

And you think the guy who made this video doesn't make money?

You think the people in the New Age health movement do this stuff out of charity?

Or do you think they just have created a business to pray on people like you, people skeptical of "big business"?

[fucktopgirl]

^:rolleyes:

Did you try to make a point here? I failed to see the relevance of it.

[EN[i]GMA]

^:rolleyes:

Did you try to make a point here?

Yes.

In fact, I succeeded.

I failed to see the relevance of it.

Unsurprising.

[fucktopgirl]

^ I was sarcastic...

[EN[i]GMA]

^ I was sarcastic...

So then what you actually meant by that post was actually "You made a great point, EN[i]GMA. I totally see the relevance of it."?

Well thanks!

[fucktopgirl]

^ haha

No, it was more like " moron, you think you gonna hook me up with that kind of kindergarden argument"

[yeahwho]

More recent information on vaccines further provides a clearer picture on how incredibly inept much of this information is.

MMR doctor Andrew Wakefield fixed data on autism (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683671.ece)

Due to this assholes irresponsibilty (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683687.ece)

people needlessly suffer
(http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683643.ece)

I support the right of people to refuse medical treatment for themselves and their dependents as long as they do so in a fully informed way. There has been a significant amount of misinformation spread by the anti-vaccine types who have little to no understanding of the scientific process. While I'll support their rights to display their ignorance to the public I think the blind acceptance of this viewpoint by so many people demonstrates a sad lack of critical thinking skills in the public.

[fucktopgirl]

^ I don't have the time or the will to debate this anymore!

[yeahwho]

^ I don't have the time or the will to debate this anymore!

It's pretty hard to debate falsified documentation anyway.

[Schmeltz]

^ I don't have the time or the will to debate this anymore!

You never did. All you had the "time or the will" for was sitting at the computer watching Jenny McCarthy on youtube. As opposed to actually thinking about the ramifications of denying your child proper medical care.

[fucktopgirl]

Whatever ...

[HAL 9000]

More recent information on vaccines further provides a clearer picture on how incredibly inept much of this information is.

MMR doctor Andrew Wakefield fixed data on autism (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683671.ece)

Due to this assholes irresponsibilty (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683687.ece)

people needlessly suffer
(http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683643.ece)

I support the right of people to refuse medical treatment for themselves and their dependents as long as they do so in a fully informed way. There has been a significant amount of misinformation spread by the anti-vaccine types who have little to no understanding of the scientific process. While I'll support their rights to display their ignorance to the public I think the blind acceptance of this viewpoint by so many people demonstrates a sad lack of critical thinking skills in the public.

There have been some very serious allegation made against Dr Wakefield this week on top of faking the original data. These include:

1)He was paid very large sums of money buy a law firm to develop a scientific case against MMR to help sue pharmaceuticals. A conflict of interest he never declared
2)He took out patents on single shot vaccines 9 months before the MMR study. The patented vaccines had the potential to become very profitable if the MMR were ever withdrawn. It is noted that Dr Wakefield recommended the withdrawal of MMR on the back of his Lancet paper

A good summary of the investigation here - http://briandeer.com/wakefield-deer.htm

[fucktopgirl]

This totally bollocks. You think you have a convincing thing with this thing?

As much as you dont believe my source of info, i dont believe a crap of yours.

Propaganda.

Japan ban the MMR vaccin (http://http://www.wddty.com/03363800370375573241/vaccine-update-japan-bans-mmr.html)

Vaccin failed (http://http://www.wddty.com/03363800370656835628/mmr-major-mumps-outbreak-proves-the-vaccine-doesn-t-work.html)

[HAL 9000]

This totally bollocks. You think you have a convincing thing with this thing?

As much as you dont believe my source of info, i dont believe a crap of yours.

Propaganda.

Japan ban the MMR vaccin (http://http://www.wddty.com/03363800370375573241/vaccine-update-japan-bans-mmr.html)

Vaccin failed (http://http://www.wddty.com/03363800370656835628/mmr-major-mumps-outbreak-proves-the-vaccine-doesn-t-work.html)


FTP – I should have added that the site I linked to was owned by a journalist. I didn’t because the information in it is easy to verify.

For example – here is the Patent Office record of Wakefields application of 6th June 1997 regarding his new Vaccine.
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?IA=GB1998001637&wo=1998055138&DISPLAY=STATUS (http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?IA=GB1998001637&wo=1998055138&DISPLAY=STATUS)

It includes the opening line

The present invention relates to a new vaccine/immunisation for the prevention and/or prophylaxis against measles virus infection

And here is the Freedom of information letter revealing Dr Wakefields receipt of taxpayers money for legal work conducted on MMR in the 90s

http://www.destinationsante.com/IMG/pdf/frais-procedures-class-action.pdf

Still think it's bollocks?

By the way - the links in your post didnt work

[fucktopgirl]

http://www.wddty.com/03363800370375573241/vaccine-update-japan-bans-mmr.html

http://www.wddty.com/03363800370656835628/mmr-major-mumps-outbreak-proves-the-vaccine-doesn-t-work.html


THey should works.

[HAL 9000]

http://www.wddty.com/03363800370375573241/vaccine-update-japan-bans-mmr.html

http://www.wddty.com/03363800370656835628/mmr-major-mumps-outbreak-proves-the-vaccine-doesn-t-work.html


THey should works.

You have posted 2 articles from a sight called “What doctors Don’t Tell You”. Again, I suspect the most important skill that you can learn here is how to research information effectively.

That is not to say that there is not interesting material in these articles. The first accurately reports that Japan banned the MMR in 1993 because the strain of Mumps used was too virulent.

The UK also banned this MMR but instead replaced it with a less virulent version and did not have the problems experienced in Japan – you will note that in all cases the country responded by ensuring the populations safety, shows the controls work. No cover-up, no denial, no big pharma corruption - just fixing the problem as soon as its identified.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about this is this study http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/118735419/HTMLSTART (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/118735419/HTMLSTART)

Which shows that the banning of MMR had no impact on autism rates. Again be clear – MMR does not cause Autism.

The second article quotes the underlying study at the bottom – here is the link

http://nejm.highwire.org/cgi/reprint/358/15/1580.pdf (http://nejm.highwire.org/cgi/reprint/358/15/1580.pdf). It would be better if you could have posted this and or read it first as it would have made your post look more convincing and would have helped you understand the issue.

The basic premise is fair though – a strain of mumps exists against which the vaccine is not effective unless a further booster is given. Based on this info, what is the best response?

a)Remove the vaccine and expose all members of the population to all possible strains of mumps (as well as other diseases).
b)Administer a booster to the population
c)Research the new strain, develop your vaccine and introduce it to the population.

I would suggest that b and c are the better alternatives. This is also the recommendation of your links paper which states

“A more effective mumps vaccine or changes in vaccine policy <additional boosters> may be needed to avert future outbreaks and achieve the elimination of mumps.”

I have not the time to demolish every link you post, I am desperately trying to get across the value of not just going to a conspiracy website and taking their opinion at face value – read the underlying studies and see what it actually says!

Maybe they will agree with you position and if they do, it will strengthen your case immensely. If you post links to sites like wwdty.com or interviews with playboy chicks it makes your argument look weak – mainly because it is weak. If you cannot find a credible source for your data, it is unlikely to be credible data. Spend the extra 2 minutes it takes to read the source info.

[fucktopgirl]

There we go, a conspiracy website...This website seem pretty good to me, better then the one that yeawho post, if you would ask me.

Why a conspiracy? Because it goes again what you have been fed with all your life. Because it is another point of view which differ from the main stream propaganda.

[Documad]

There we go, a conspiracy website...This website seem pretty good to me, better then the one that yeawho post, if you would ask me.
I'm curious. What makes your website better than yeahwho's?

[yeahwho]

The evidence continually bombards the studies of Dr. Andrew Wakefield, who says there is a link between MMP vaccine and autism, this becomes such a blatant lie that I'm amazed anyone would support his findings. I try and keep an open mind about these issues and once had the some reservations about the vaccine programs... the autism issue is one all parents in the past decade have weighed in on.

Even with Dr. Wakefield's lies, people used common sense and continued to err on the side of health.


Lawyers purchase an anti-consensus, manufacture a link between mercury vaccines and autism (http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2007/01/6446.ars)

A press report reveals the financial connection between the doctors promoting a link between autism and vaccination and the law firm suing vaccine makers.

The Times obtained a record of the payments made by the legal teams that have pursued lawsuits against vaccine makers on behalf of autistic children in England. It revealed that the primary author of the first paper that suggested a mercury-autism link, Dr. Andrew Wakefield, began receiving payments from the lawyers starting a full two years before his first published study on the topic. In the decade since, Dr. Wakefield has received a total of over £435,000. Several of his business associates and co-workers received over £100,000; all told, roughly £3.4 million was paid out for the expert work and testimony of doctors associated with the research. In a further conflict of interest, the autistic children that were the subjects of the studies were also the plaintiffs in the lawsuit.

The more I read up on this Dr. Wakefield the more I feel as if all objectivity is lost by you fucktopgirl. He is a total douche bag asshole.

[HAL 9000]

There we go, a conspiracy website...This website seem pretty good to me, better then the one that yeawho post, if you would ask me.

Why a conspiracy? Because it goes again what you have been fed with all your life. Because it is another point of view which differ from the main stream propaganda.


The website is called 'What Doctors Don't Tell You'. This name suggests that doctors are engaged in a conspiracy against patients by not telling them things they need to know. That is why it is a conspiracy website - it is a website claiming that a conspiracy is going on, do you see?

You will also note that in the links you posted, the articles misrepresented the information (as I have demonstrated clearly above) in order to support their conspiracy theory - the theory that doctors have decided to secretly gang together to mislead the public and trick them into taken harmful treatments so that they and the pharmaceutical indurstry can make loads of money.

Your reference to mainstream propaganda is disturbing - I have shown you that you can view the underlying data yourself. I have shown you the studies in the medical journals, I have shown you the actual evidence against doctor Wakefield, these are the raw facts - unspoiled by commentary or opinion. YOU CAN DO THIS YOURSELF - USE GOOGLE.

Good science happens when you view evidence first and draw conclusions based on that evidence. If you have a website called, 'What doctors dont tell you' it means they have started from the premise that there is a conspiracy and are going to present evidence (or in this case misrepresetnt evidence) to support their case and they are going to filter out evidence that disagrees with them. That is to say, they start with the conclusion and search for evidence they can find to fit with that conclusion. This is how pseudoscience works and it does this because it is designed, not to find truth, but mislead people who do not understand the scientific method.

I am afraid I am rapidly losing patience with this. I am trying to help you but you continue to treat this as a personal attack. In the interest of helping you, I repeat my offer to help you find and understand scientific literature that may be of use to you. My continued reason for posting here is the hope that I can help protect the health of you and your family, however, it is becoming increasingly clear that I am not getting through to you, so I think this is probably a good end to this discussion.

[fucktopgirl]

^ help me??? Please, help yourself...

You guys are stuck on doctor wakefield. This is just one case of bollocks. .

HAl , i appreciate your devotion but, i prefer my source of info . It is not about a conspiracy, it is about some facts that are not always in the headlines news because it could harm the business of pharmaceutical companies. Some doctors are sell out some are not. A fact that some drugs and vaccins are not all that great in the end. You think medecine arrive at her apogee? No more mistakes can be made? Right...

The two last link i posted are quite good with real information. But that not enough for you. Because of the title of the website. OK then, no need to discuss here anymore if you are not able to debate information i put here.

http://www.therealessentials.com/vaccination-princ.html

INstead you are somewhat telling me that i am not critic enough and wise enough to see true info from wrong and you say i take this personally, not at all. I don't give a shit really what you think of me and my ideas.

To each their own. In my view , YOU are the one who is a bit sidetrack by just believing main stream media...

[HAL 9000]

You guys are stuck on doctor wakefield. This is just one case of bollocks.


True – but it is the case on which the whole anti-vac campaign is based. There is no other study that I am aware of supporting an autism/vaccine link.

Because of the title of the website. OK then, no need to discuss here anymore if you are not able to debate information i put here.


How can you seriously write that? How can say I did not address the info in your last two links – I did but I will repost it below for clarity!!!!!!!

That is not to say that there is not interesting material in these articles. The first accurately reports that Japan banned the MMR in 1993 because the strain of Mumps used was too virulent.

The UK also banned this MMR but instead replaced it with a less virulent version and did not have the problems experienced in Japan – you will note that in all cases the country responded by ensuring the populations safety, shows the controls work. No cover-up, no denial, no big pharma corruption - just fixing the problem as soon as its identified.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about this is this study http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/118735419/HTMLSTART (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/118735419/HTMLSTART)

Which shows that the banning of MMR had no impact on autism rates. Again be clear – MMR does not cause Autism.

The second article quotes the underlying study at the bottom – here is the link

http://nejm.highwire.org/cgi/reprint/358/15/1580.pdf (http://nejm.highwire.org/cgi/reprint/358/15/1580.pdf). It would be better if you could have posted this and or read it first as it would have made your post look more convincing and would have helped you understand the issue.

The basic premise is fair though – a strain of mumps exists against which the vaccine is not effective unless a further booster is given. Based on this info, what is the best response?

a)Remove the vaccine and expose all members of the population to all possible strains of mumps (as well as other diseases).
b)Administer a booster to the population
c)Research the new strain, develop your vaccine and introduce it to the population.

I would suggest that b and c are the better alternatives. This is also the recommendation of your links paper which states


Quote:
“A more effective mumps vaccine or changes in vaccine policy <additional boosters> may be needed to avert future outbreaks and achieve the elimination of mumps.”



INstead you are somewhat telling me that i am not critic enough and wise enough to see true info from wrong and you say i take this personally, not at all. I don't give a shit really what you think of me and my ideas.



It is not that you are not wise enough, it is that you do not understand the difference between the Scientific Method and Pseudoscience. You are not alone, this is probably true of most people.

http://www.therealessentials.com/vaccination-princ.html

Look – you just posted a link to a site that is selling smelly oil for medicinal purpose!!!! Are you seriously going to back Aromatherapy over evidence-based medicine!! Remember when I said this.

It is true that pharmaceuticals seek to make money, but that does not make them evil! They are heavily regulated which means all the treatments they (and the health professionals) offer have to undergo two tests (hence evidence based medicine).

1. They have to demonstrate that they offer a health benefit greater than that of a similarly administered placebo

2. They have to understand the side effects and benefits of any treatment.

The word 'alternative' in front of a health pill or supplement means it has FAILED TEST 1 and has not had to undergo test 2.

I wonder what tests have been done to show that 'Young Living essential Oils' are effective and cause no harm?


To each their own. In my view , YOU are the one who is a bit sidetrack by just believing main stream media


We are going in circles here – all through this thread I have tried to keep away from the media, I have posted links to the RAW Data – the pure facts, no opinion, no interpretation just real data. How can you possibly accuse me of this? I have shown that vaccines do not cause autism, that medical controls / regulation are effective and that it is the pseudoscientific community who is profiting off of the vulnerability of individuals by getting them to switch from clearly ineffective treatments from clearly effective ones. I have spelled it out for you as simply as I know how – I can do no more but hope some of this has stuck.

[EN[i]GMA]

Your mistake in arguing with her is thinking that her position is actually based on reason and evidence, and not, as it in fact is, on some petulant, individualist-born notion of a "freedom" to believe whatever it is happens to strike her fancy.

I mean, it's almost fascistic of you to force her to believe that autism isn't caused by vaccines, what with your evidence and reason and logic! How hegemonic of you (and how hegemonic of the facts!) to not align with these preconceived notions of the world is.

She chooses to believe that vaccines cause autism. That's all there is to it. She doesn't choose it FOR any reason, of course, simply because that's what she CHOOSES to believe. So your trying to convince her that she's wrong is really (from her perspective) an attempt to enslave her free-ranging, independent spirit.

This is about as far as I've psychoanalyzed the anti-vaccine movement.

[yeahwho]

GMA;1647631']

This is about as far as I've psychoanalyzed the anti-vaccine movement.

plus there's this too,

.... I think that if the free thinking anti-vaccine crowd does happen to get measles mumps pertussis polio or whatever other preventable deadly diesease, the ace up their sleeve's is the knowledge and availability of aromatherapy.

[Bob]

personally i think laughter is the best medicine

[fucktopgirl]

I agree with BOb here.

By the way, i understand the difference between science and bullshit. There is scientific studies that show that vaccins is one of the factors that can create neurological damage, especially when young kiddos have 10 stuff jab in the arm in one time and that, when their immune system is not that strong.

The main problem, is too much at the same time with susbstances that are quite toxic. They are still figuring out the effect of vaccin on the human body. INjecting foreign animal susbtance in our human cells is likely to create some change and maybe not that positive.

You can say all you want, the fact of the matter is that pharmaceutical companies are business and their goal is profit . There is too much vaccins for just about anything. It has nothing to do with conspiracy but more about choosing what you want in your kid system , informing yourself and not having a blind faith in the health system.

Bunch of Tatawins!

[ms.peachy]

Oh looky, in the New York Times today:

Vaccines exonerated on autism (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/opinion/13fri2.html)

... but what do they know, bunch of dupes.

[fucktopgirl]

Oh looky, in the New York Times today:

Vaccines exonerated on autism (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/opinion/13fri2.html)

... but what do they know, bunch of dupes.

Urrmm, new york time is not an objective magazine, he is owned by big corporation who have particular interest in mind.

Even Chomsky said once that it was so/so as a source of true journalism.

[ms.peachy]

Yes it's pretty obvious that they are part of the big conspiracy too, and the judges on that trial too, all of them, they're all in on it.

[fucktopgirl]

Your are dumb, nothing to do with conspiracy.

I dont even believe what you say , there is no big conspiracy, it is just that the economic laws rules everything to the detriment of the environment, human and so on. We live in a society where economic interests are in front of everything else.


Anyway, I would certainly not base my opinion on this sole source of info, that for sure.

[Bob]

Your are dumb, nothing to do with conspiracy.

I dont even believe what you say , there is no big conspiracy, it is just that the economic laws rules everything to the detriment of the environment, human and so on. We live in a society where economic interests are in front of everything else.



except for vendors of alternative medicine. they aren't in it for money.

[yeahwho]

Anyway, I would certainly not base my opinion on this sole source of info, that for sure.

yes you would, you've demonstrated 0 critical thinking skills and have insulted each individual who has demonstrated critical thinking skills.
you have relied completely on one train of thought.

[fucktopgirl]

Of course they want to make money too. We live in a material world where you need money in order to survive. Who don't want to make monay?

But there is differents kind of approach to the way of making money. The main purpose, in alternative medecine, is to work with nature and human in a balance way. I am not saying that everything that this movement bring is fucking A and without corruption.

Anyway, it is a matter of choice and background. My opinion on vaccins are roots in my family and my surrounding since i am kiddo. We are 6 childrens, i am the second oldest in the family. My older brother and i where vaccinated , but i did not have all the shots because one time i react badly , so my mom decide that was it. So all my others siblings are unvaccinated. Some of my cousins and old family friend aren't either. So , that why i believe in more alternative medecine and that i don't believe in vaccins that much...

So, after this brief , superficial , lesson of my family history. I hope you guys understand a bit more where i am from and why i have this belief. But, when my daughter was born, i research and informed myself and i still do to this day, i though /think that my parents stance on the issue was/is still relevant.,

Ok, NOW , i am also done talking about this.

Let's not waste our time! Either way, i will still believe that my truth is worthy and you will still think yours is too

[Bob]

Of course they want to make money too. We live in a material world where you need money in order to survive. Who don't want to make monay?

But there is differents kind of approach to the way of making money. The main purpose, in alternative medecine, is to work with nature and human in a balance way. I am not saying that everything that this movement bring is fucking A and without corruption.

ahahahahahaha. thanks, my cold is gone

[fucktopgirl]

At least i make you laugh...

[Documad]

The two last link i posted are quite good with real information. But that not enough for you. Because of the title of the website. OK then, no need to discuss here anymore if you are not able to debate information i put here.

http://www.therealessentials.com/vaccination-princ.html

I'm still trying to figure out why you believe your websites. Anyone can start a website and post a personal opinion. That doesn't mean it's true. You believe anything that says what you want to hear and ignore the things you disagree with.

By the way, I'm watching PBS's documentary about polio again. It still scares me.

[Lyman Zerga]

shes french, give her a break

[fucktopgirl]

^ ?? what the point?

[Dorothy Wood]

she's also a hippie, let us not forget.


no offense. just sayin'

[fucktopgirl]

^ Right... If i am a hippie, you are a hispter ?


you don't even know me, how can you attach an etiquette on me? I dont buy into social groups/classs of any sort.


I am just me , that it.

You guys are a bit twat, because i have an different opinion, you need to justify why; She is french( by the way , i am quebecer), She is an hippie( which i am not ).

Sometime, this place have a feeling of high school ...:rolleyes:

[Dorothy Wood]

I'm just teasing! I think I agree with a quarter of the things you're saying, and maybe 40% of what the pro-vaccine people are saying. the other 35%, I've just made up myself.

[HAL 9000]

Not wanting to resurrect a dead thread, but saw this today and had to laugh.

Jenny McCarthy - the lady who thinks vaccines cause autism and contain harmful toxins…. wait for it……

wait for it….

Is a fan of Botox!!!!!!!!!

"I love Botox, I absolutely love it," she said. "I get it minimally, so I can still move my face. But I really do think it's a savior."

http://omg.yahoo.com/news/jenny-mccarthy-on-playboy-botox-husband-jim-carrey/19433?nc (http://omg.yahoo.com/news/jenny-mccarthy-on-playboy-botox-husband-jim-carrey/19433?nc)

The clue is in the name BoTOX. That is Botulinum toxin – the most toxic protein known to man, injected straight into her stupid head!

Classic, what a moron! How does her mind rationalise this?

[fucktopgirl]

^ i agree she is stupid... Botox :rolleyes:

Anyway, i did bring her up just to show that, well, this issue is getting media attention, it is no more a tabou to talk about the possible side effect of excessive vaccination at a young age.

[Bob]

I'm disturbed at the prospect of a parent who makes critical health care decisions for his/her kid (and other kids) based upon youtube videos.

It's starting to sink in now that there must be large numbers of parents who are in that same camp. My oh my.

my oh my indeed :(