Massive amounts of shootings

[kaiser soze]

14 dead in Binghamton NY

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/hostage_shooting

BINGHAMTON, N.Y. – A gunman barricaded the back door of a community center with his car and then opened fire on a room full of immigrants taking a citizenship class Friday, killing 13 people before apparently committing suicide, officials said.

Investigators said they had yet to establish a motive for the massacre, which was at least the fifth deadly mass shooting in the U.S. in the past month alone.

2 or 3 Officers killed in Pittsburgh

http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/1511454,w-pittsburgh-police-shooting-040409.article

PITTSBURGH -- A man opened fire on officers responding to a domestic disturbance call Saturday morning, killing three of them, before barricading himself in the home, a police official said.

Three officers were killed, said a police official at the scene who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media.

At least five officers were wounded, police spokeswoman Diane Richard said. It's not clear if that included the slain officers.

madness :(

[Randetica]

my sister told one of her friends knew a black guy that had to take a lot of shit only because he is black
he mentioned he wants to kill his classmates and later the police found out he has a gun (which is quite unusal in austria)

to be honest i understand the black guy or and any other kid who gets so much shit for nothing since i been through that as well

that treatment can ruin your life and so you want to ruin theirs, i wouldnt do it but i understand it kinda

but i dont understand people who run around and kill random people

[RobMoney$]

So this month you're sympathetic to the cops position in society?

Last month you were calling them criminals with the "Another cop, another crime" thread.



Do us all a favor and stop posting until you figure out what the hell you're talking about.

[kaiser soze]

nothing to add to this discussion except harassment again

I can discuss what concerns me rob, you do not own this place

I did not champion the deaths of the cops. I have already stated how I feel about cops dying in the line of duty

why are you such an asshole?

[kaiser soze]

p.s.

It's real classy to see you more concerned about what I post rather than adding to this discussion.

It shows what little respect you have for the officers who passed(n)

and I will continue to point out people breaking the law against civilians. May they be officer, politician, or soldier. That is what American's should do to keep their rights protected.

[RobMoney$]

nothing to add to this discussion except harassment again

I can discuss what concerns me rob, you do not own this place

I did not champion the deaths of the cops. I have already stated how I feel about cops dying in the line of duty

why are you such an asshole?


It's a bitch when someone exposes you as a hipocrite, so I understand your frustration.

So feel free to discuss whatever topic you like (even if it does contridict an opinion you offered a few weeks ago), and by the same token you should afford me the opportunity to express whatever opinion I may have about that topic without getting disparaging towards me.

Edit: It seems like you don't really put forth an opinion of your own, you just regurgitate pot-shot lefty propoganda like some blind left-wing soldier.

[checkyourprez]

malcolm gladwell discusses this phenomena in the tipping point.

he explained when you see something like this, within the next few weeks or months even there will be a rash of copy cat type of incidents. not directly copied but it sparks the next event essentially.

[Bob]

i don't see why you can't oppose police corruption and cop-killing at the same time without being a hypocrite

[RobMoney$]

Because "Another Cop - Another Crime" isn't opposing police corruption.
It's suggesting that cops committing crimes is normal.

Because calling cops criminals, and then a few weeks later sympathizing with them when one is killed is hypocritical.

[yeahwho]

It sure would be nice to see people just relax, take in what is happening and try to address a change in a positive matter. Not necessarily trying to hijack this thread or am I really commenting on the direction of this thread. I'm just saying why don't people quit finger-pointing and flapping blame through their pie-holes and try and address this problem with some positivity?

[Dorothy Wood]

Because "Another Cop - Another Crime" isn't opposing police corruption.
It's suggesting that cops committing crimes is normal.

Because calling cops criminals, and then a few weeks later sympathizing with them when one is killed is hypocritical.


well, technically he'd only be a hypocrite if the other thread was in favor of cop-killing, and this thread was against cops dying.


not everything's black and white, robbo. people are allowed to take issue with people who abuse authority, and be saddened by senseless violence at the same time.

your relentless animosity toward kaiser and specifically the thread title "another cop - another crime" is bordering on obsessive.

[RobMoney$]

No, technically he first began by criticizing police, calling them criminals, now he sympathizes with them.
Hypocrite.

Sorry if people making the accusation that cops=criminals offends me but it does.

And it still offends me a few weeks after he made the thread.

And it will still offend me in a year from now, and five years from now.



If you consider that obsessive, than I'll be that.
Obsessive about supporting our police, even when one of them does something that may be wrong.

[kaiser soze]

Well, the thread didn't address just the shooting in Pittsburgh, I also posted a story to the shooting in Binghamton NY.

Anyways, this is very saddening on so many levels. People are killing random strangers in mass proportions, their families, the police. One thing that has me a bit concerned is the apparent rush for weaponry since Obama has taken office.

I trust and believe in our Second Amendment right, but I don't think people should have access to the type of weaponry that could wipe out a classroom in seconds. Or sadly out-power the police. Where do we draw the line with this right?

This is the paranoiac version of keeping up with the Jones. Bob my neighbor has an m16 so I should get an m-60. Might makes right....right?

Easy access to weapons + destroyed lives = disaster.

Here's more on the guy who killed the cops

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09095/960750-53.stm

Richard Andrew Poplawski was a young man convinced the nation was secretly controlled by a cabal that would eradicate freedom of speech, take away his guns and use the military to enslave the citizenry.

I was talking to a very conservative republican yesterday about gun control and he said at first he felt people shouldn't have assault weaponry and changed his mind. I asked him then. When the government comes knocking at your door and it escalates to a gun fight and you kill them....who will believe you were in the right and I received no answer. This guy blindly followed the bush presidency and now thinks things are more dangerous with Obama in office.

Here is more on the Binghamton shooting

http://www.pressconnects.com/article/20090405/NEWS01/904050381

Police said Wong opened fire on a classroom at the American Civic Association Friday, killing 13 people before taking his own life.

Doctors at two local hospitals on Saturday began the painstaking process of identifying victims, through autopsies and consultations with the Immigration and Naturalization Service. Except for Wong, police did not release the names of those killed, pending notification of all families involved.

Police Chief Joseph Zikuski said, despite the "psychological autopsy" planned by the Broome County District Attorney's Office, the community may never know what drove Wong to slaughter 13 innocent people.

What's known is this: Wong, 41, was a distraught man with an affinity for guns. Family and friends told police they weren't entirely surprised by his actions.

Another Shooting case - 5 children killed by their dad :(

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008986370_websixdead04m.html

GRAHAM, Pierce County — Throughout the day Sunday, people have been driving by, sometimes dropping off flowers, at the Graham-area home where five children were apparently fatally shot by their father Saturday.

According to The Associated Press, police are saying the father killed the children and himself after learning his wife was leaving him.

It is really sad that people cannot cope with challenging times, it is also sad that people are truly scared of dying alone and commit such senseless and selfish violence. What the fuck is going on?

[yeahwho]

The killings up here at Graham are just one of what has been happening on a more frequent basis here in the northwest. We've begun to see this as almost twice weekly. It as if an ideology of unacceptable failure must be shared not only cowardly by yourself, but spread amongst the most innocent people on earth, kids.

Reading the comments on the Seattle Times story I spotted this response,

Take careful notes of these facts:

He did not use a baseball bat.
He did not use a brick.
He did not use a razor blade.
He did not use gasoline and arson.
He did not use a bow-and-arrow.
He did not use a slingshot.
He did not use a car to run over them.
He did not use a floor-mixer to homogenize them into gravy.
He did not use a TV tuned to prime-time network programs.
He did not use a ski pole.
He did not use...

By this time, even terminally obtuse right-wing gun freaks will see a pattern here. It doesn't require rocket science to see what is killing people like these.

It's guns.

[AceFace]

^ good post!

cops are still humans. you can oppose human killings and still have issues with cops in general.

[kaiser soze]

Shooting range murder / suicide - Mother kills 20 year old son!

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-asecgunrange06040609apr06,0,5962752.story

CASSELBERRY — Marie Moore and her son, Mitchell, were taking target practice at a popular shooting range Sunday when, without warning, she shot him in the head and then turned the gun on herself.

Mitchell Moore, 20, died at the scene. Marie, 44, died a short time later at Florida Hospital Altamonte.

A mother killing her adult son at a shooting range!?!?

What the hell :( :(

[AceFace]

sickening.

April 16th is almost here. it's a bad time of year for most of us here in SWVA.

[Burnout18]

It doesn't require rocket science to see what is killing people like these.



Mentally unstable people?

[yeahwho]

Mentally unstable people?

and guns

[Bob]

i think the guns help

[checkyourprez]

Mentally unstable people?

give a mentally unstable person a spoon. see how many people he kills.

[Burnout18]

Of course an AK-47 will do more damage than a knife in a large crowd, but come on.... i own a gun legally and i certainly haven't killed anyone. In fact the only way i would ever comprehend shooting anyone would have to be if i was completely ready to spend the rest of my life in jail.... the gun is registered and forensics will link it back to me.

You mean to tell me that the fucken nutcases who shot up Columbine, Virginia Tech and in Binghampton weren't capable of also stabbing as many motherfuckers as possible? Looks like they might have been.

[checkyourprez]

Of course an AK-47 will do more damage than a knife in a large crowd, but come on.... i own a gun legally and i certainly haven't killed anyone. In fact the only way i would ever comprehend shooting anyone would have to be if i was completely ready to spend the rest of my life in jail.... the gun is registered and forensics will link it back to me.

You mean to tell me that the fucken nutcases who shot up Columbine, Virginia Tech and in Binghampton weren't capable of also stabbing as many motherfuckers as possible? Looks like they might have been.

not a chance in hell.

i have a chance of kicking someones ass with a knife, especially if there is a crowd to further help me. i, and the crowrd, stand basically 0 chance of defending ourselves against a bullet/s.

[Bob]

In fact the only way i would ever comprehend shooting anyone would have to be if i was completely ready to spend the rest of my life in jail.... the gun is registered and forensics will link it back to me.


or you could just shoot yourself when you're done, like most of them do

[Bob]

for the record, gun control is one of those things that i haven't made up my mind about. on the one hand, i acknowledge that the bill of rights is one of the few sort of sacred inviolable sources of law that we have, and that once you start chipping away at that it's hard to say where it would stop (not that the first and fourth haven't been chipped away at but that's a different discussion), and i also acknowledge that a lot of americans are really head over heels in love with their guns, and that tighter gun laws might do more harm than good on account of how much it would offend them (especially when you take into account all of the guns that they own, see the pittsburgh shooting), and i'm also forced to acknowledge that i advocate responsible recreational drug use and responsible violent video game ownership and it would be slightly hypocritical of me to turn around and want to deny people the right to responsible gun ownership

but on the other hand it's getting harder and harder to look at these killing sprees and to compare them to the relative lack of killing sprees in countries with tighter gun laws and to not think "alright yeah, guns don't kill people, people do, but maybe people with guns tend to kill more people than people without guns."

so i don't know. i don't know the answer to that.

[jackrock]

not a chance in hell.

i have a chance of kicking someones ass with a knife, especially if there is a crowd to further help me. i, and the crowrd, stand basically 0 chance of defending ourselves against a bullet/s.

No, but if you took a gun out of the holster on your ribs or leg you would.

[kaiser soze]

for the record, gun control is one of those things that i haven't made up my mind about. on the one hand, i acknowledge that the bill of rights is one of the few sort of sacred inviolable sources of law that we have, and that once you start chipping away at that it's hard to say where it would stop (not that the first and fourth haven't been chipped away at but that's a different discussion), and i also acknowledge that a lot of americans are really head over heels in love with their guns, and that tighter gun laws might do more harm than good on account of how much it would offend them (especially when you take into account all of the guns that they own, see the pittsburgh shooting), and i'm also forced to acknowledge that i advocate responsible recreational drug use and responsible violent video game ownership and it would be slightly hypocritical of me to turn around and want to deny people the right to responsible gun ownership

but on the other hand it's getting harder and harder to look at these killing sprees and to compare them to the relative lack of killing sprees in countries with tighter gun laws and to not think "alright yeah, guns don't kill people, people do, but maybe people with guns tend to kill more people than people without guns."

so i don't know. i don't know the answer to that.

Agree'd. There our the rights and then there are the dangers of a gun infested society. I truly believe that gun laws are not being enforced accordingly, there are owners who are definitely not handling guns responsibly (accidental home shootings), assholes still treating guns like toys (in the case of the kid who shot himself accidentally with an uzi at a gun gathering), and general paranoia pushing gun sales to their highest in decades. Compounded with mental health issues, massive stress, paranoid propaganda, and gun lobbies and we have all sorts of recipes for disaster in every corner of gun-totin' America.

[RobMoney$]

Yes, lets ban guns.
It's worked well for alcohol and drugs.

The only thing a gun ban will accomplish is a mass rush for gun-lovers to stockpile guns.


...and there are plenty of examples of "killing sprees" by mentally unstable people who percieved themselves as wronged by society in some way throughout history.
We call them serial killers.


I'm as troubled as anyone about the victims and their families affected by crimes involving guns, especially the police officers who are trying to protect us all from the irresponsible. But I'm not so sure trying to control guns is the right way to handle it.
I'm an advocate of stricter penalties for criminals commiting crimes with a gun.
There's a real non-chalant attitude I see in society about going to prison that's a lot more troubling to me than creating more gun control legislation. Criminals don't seem to fear prison anymore.

[Mot]

not this shit again. don't we do this EVERY year?

how many people do you know that were killed with guns? I knew at least two people who were killed from beatings, and a few others who were beaten within an inch of their lives. i saved a 17 year old boy from being killed with bats and sticks. if i had not owned a gun he would be dead.

if someone wants to kill sombody, you don't need a gun. all you need is a fucked up mind. i'm tired of this hippy shit. "ban guns and everything will be fine." idiots.

[Videodrome]

Take careful notes of these facts:

He did not use a floor-mixer to homogenize them into gravy.

WOW! can't say i saw that coming.

[checkyourprez]

im not saying you need guns to kill people.

what im saying is the columbine, VA tech kid, this guy in bingmington, the kid in pittsburg, the one in california, plus all the others...a fraction of people would have died if those people didnt have guns. half of them cops mind you, who carry guns themselves.


the other day in rochester a 17 and two 15 year olds were breaking into unlocked cars. this guy came out at like 330 in the AM and shot and killed the 17 y.o. it wasnt even his car he was breaking into. im not standing up for this delinquent 17 y.o. what so ever, but this kid essentially got the death penalty for some dumb kid shit that a lot of you older more responsible posters probably did when you were younger (or something equally stupid).

is this really the society we want to live in?


the old, well i need it for my protection blah blah blah, be serious. you're more likely to accidentally shoot yourself or someone you know, or have your kids find it and kill someone than you are to ever shoot an intruder with it.

its a loophole that has been exploited in the constitution. it wasnt put in there so every tom dick and harry could carry gats and AKs. shootings in other countries happen, i know this, but nothing like we have in this country. i dont see how you cannot draw that correlation. maybe next time its you in that community center, or its your kid at the high school or college that kids shot up. maybe then you'll change your tune.

[Whatitis]

the old, well i need it for my protection blah blah blah, be serious.

I all seriousness. If guns where totally banned, the black market will run rampant. There will always be people that will want them for whatever cause. Most of them in the black market for criminal reasons. Guns will always be around for that reason. Yes if we get rid of legal ways to buy guns, there can be a reduction of these type of crimes but there is no way to eliminate them off the streets and preventing some psycho from obtaining them illegally and doing the same thing. The kids in Columbine had an arsinal they bought from an illegal source and they were kids. Proof that there will always be means to get what you want. For that reason alone, having a gun for protection is not just blah blah blah.

[Dorothy Wood]

I think it's dumb how people are like, "don't be afraid of guns", but the reason they have guns is to scare people.

in some ways, I think that if everyone had a gun, there would be less crime because people wouldn't be as quick to take advantage of each other. but I don't think it really works like that. it just seems like outfitting every single person with the means to kill would be terrifying. maybe if everyone in the world had an even temper and never made mistakes, it'd be alright. but that's a gun-lover's fantasy world.


anyway, I think it's impossible to get rid of all guns, they're too much a part of our society. we just need to get rid of the reasons why people want to carry them. which is never going to happen...but we can still try at least.

[checkyourprez]

I all seriousness. If guns where totally banned, the black market will run rampant. There will always be people that will want them for whatever cause. Most of them in the black market for criminal reasons. Guns will always be around for that reason. Yes if we get rid of legal ways to buy guns, there can be a reduction of these type of crimes but there is no way to eliminate them off the streets and preventing some psycho from obtaining them illegally and doing the same thing. The kids in Columbine had an arsinal they bought from an illegal source and they were kids. Proof that there will always be means to get what you want. For that reason alone, having a gun for protection is not just blah blah blah.

it doesnt help that we are the largest producer of guns in the world, and you can get them anywhere. its not like weed here, where anyone can just grow it in their back yard. you cant just make guns in your fucking basement. (im sure some loser could, no need to point that out, im talking mass scale shit here.) with considerably less guns in our country, the illegal prices of them would skyrocket, like drugs. do you think some poor Vietnamese immigrant is going to afford an AK if it costs him thousands of dollars, especially after just loosing his job? Or a couple of teenagers in Colorado could have afforded an arsenal of guns if it was costing them tens of thousands of dollars? hmmmmm.


and you really just picked that one point you felt you had an argument for and ran with that, yet failed the address the other real points in my statement.

[yeahwho]

Nobody has called for a band of guns on this thread, unless I missed something. I'm certain nobody called anyone who is pro-gun an idiot.

Why is it so wrong to call an actual event what it is? All of the newspapers, TV, www's, radio station's and people I talk to are bringing this up, there has been an increased amount of tragic shootings involving not only the police, but many innocent people this past year.

There also happens to be a huge spike in gun purchases this past year. Does this compute? More guns, more death?

Maybe the liberal's are doing this, they have no real sense of guns or correct coping skills according to many right wing leaders. Democrats in general should be put on a longer waiting list to get guns.

[checkyourprez]

^no doubt.

pro gun people get offended when anything like this is brought up and get defensive like the call is to ban all guns.

i, nor any one here arguing that other side have really said that to my knowledge. maybe i missed it.

we are just pointing out the correlations and facts about what is going on and with our gun obsessed country.

[yeahwho]

Nobody has called for a band of guns on this thread, unless I missed something. I'm certain nobody called anyone who is pro-gun an idiot.

yeah and i meant "ban of guns" not "band of guns", two completely different things....

[yeahwho]

Yes, lets ban guns.
It's worked well for alcohol and drugs.

The only thing a gun ban will accomplish is a mass rush for gun-lovers to stockpile guns.


...and there are plenty of examples of "killing sprees" by mentally unstable people who percieved themselves as wronged by society in some way throughout history.
We call them serial killers.


I'm as troubled as anyone about the victims and their families affected by crimes involving guns, especially the police officers who are trying to protect us all from the irresponsible. But I'm not so sure trying to control guns is the right way to handle it.
I'm an advocate of stricter penalties for criminals commiting crimes with a gun.
There's a real non-chalant attitude I see in society about going to prison that's a lot more troubling to me than creating more gun control legislation. Criminals don't seem to fear prison anymore.

Going to prison is not in the minds of these mentally unstable shooters, being a martyr and committing suicide after killing innocent people is the point, the whole point. If I'm going out, so are you, you and you... then I'll go out.

But your point is valid, swept under the carpet and one of the most frightening aspects of our current culture.

Prison has become a much more socially acceptable way of life for millions of Americans. Whether visiting a relative or securing your own time and reservation, millions of American citizens don't even think twice.

[RobMoney$]

Going to prison is not in the minds of these mentally unstable shooters, being a martyr and committing suicide after killing innocent people is the point, the whole point. If I'm going out, so are you, you and you... then I'll go out.

Yes and No.
The shooting in Binghamton was comitted by the type of suicidal individual you're talking about.

But of all the Police shootings in my city (probably a half dozen in the past two years), none of them were comitted by anyone who was looking to shoot themselves after they shot their victim.

They were all comitted by people who had a history of crime and being in & out of prison their whole lives. They obviously had a lack of respect for society and it's rules. It's a troubling, but growing fad in urban culture that being in prison and shooting a cop is worn as some badge or honor.

[yeahwho]

Yes and No.
.

2 of the 3 cases sited on this thread involved a form of murder/suicide.

Sure, I'm sort of seeing a pattern here of just contrary minutiae that amounts to a pissing match down to curvature of the guns trigger. In order to expedite the discussion why not go back to the very simple premise of the recent spike in gun sales, that coincidentally (or perhaps by some crazy statistical evidence) in this same time period more gun killings have happened.

From this I've come up with a basic formula, guns don't kill people, they just make it easier.

[Whatitis]

Who's really the one offended here. Not me. My whole point was to defend the reasoning the owning a gun is for protection because guns will always be around not matter how hard gun control gets. It's been pointed out that guns are the problem so what's the solution? I for one don't have a solution other than being able to protect myself and others if, and only, the occasion arises.

[yeahwho]

Who's really the one offended here. Not me. My whole point was to defend the reasoning the owning a gun is for protection because guns will always be around not matter how hard gun control gets. It's been pointed out that guns are the problem so what's the solution? I for one don't have a solution other than being able to protect myself and others if, and only, the occasion arises.

The only thing that's offensive is accepting society as it is. I'm offended that we could justify innocent people being killed by guns or that I have to own a gun and be put on alert at all times because society has accepted that lifestyle. Reasonable people do not accept that.

[RobMoney$]

Guns don't kill people, rappers do. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv-2XYOtgCg)

[checkyourprez]

Guns don't kill people, rappers do. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv-2XYOtgCg)

only the black ones.

[yeahwho]

Guns don't kill people, rappers do. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv-2XYOtgCg)

Which brings on another issue, unfortunately as was with most folks I know and knew who were into punk, it is/was/continues to be fun. I can't help but be surprized that somebody would take it as a legitimate lifestyle. The glorification of violence is/was/continues to be a much accepted art form in all mediums, yet some of this goes into the very heart of the matter, though very real in it's portrayal in rap music, I see it as an abstract form.

Does this make me a wimp? Or does it make the rapperz wimpz for not being much more violent while on tour?

[Bob]

It's been pointed out that guns are the problem so what's the solution?

that's the biggest problem i have, yeah. i don't advocate outright banning guns. i mean, when obama got elected, gun nuts started stockpiling guns and ammo because they were afraid he was going to try and take them away, even though as far as i know he never really gave any hint that he was going to apart from the "clinging to guns and religion" comment, so god knows what would happen if the government actually tried to do it. and as rob pointed out, banning things doesn't make them go away, it just increases the amount of violence surrounding them. prohibition brought in the mob. illegal drugs draws gang violence. god only knows what kind of shit illegal guns would bring considering that guns are designed with killing in mind to begin with.

so i don't like that idea. i like the idea of keeping guns out of the hands of people who do crazy shit like shoot up community centers and then turn the guns on themselves, or shoot 17 year old carjackers in the back, but how do you effectively do that? we already have gun control, and whenever you try to tighten that up, the gun nuts get nuttier, and that's no good.

so i don't know. i don't own a gun, i don't want a gun, and i certainly don't want to need a gun, but i recognize that a lot of americans (responsibly) have guns and they (responsibly) love their guns and they (responsibly) get pissed whenever the government tries to make it harder to get more guns, and the last thing you want is a bunch of pissed-off people with guns, so i don't know. i wish that americans would love guns a little less, but this is america, you can't tell people what to love.

so basically, yeah, you're right, i don't know the solution to that problem.

[checkyourprez]

it is quite the conundrum.


can add this one to the list.

A man shot and killed his estranged wife, their teenage daughter and two other relatives in rural north Alabama before returning to his home in a nearby town and killing himself the day before their divorce trial, authorities said Tuesday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090408/ap_on_re_us/alabama_four_dead


cant go a day without it lately it seems.

[Burnout18]

i don't have a gun to "show off," or even for protection... it fact, it is hidden and locked away, incase someone breaks in to steal shit (hopefully) they won't find it. In fact, i think if someone broke in while i was home, i doubt i would even have enough time to get to it....

And as for gun sales.... the NRA sent out a bunch of shit in thier newsletters quoting obama from as far back as 1999. They said shit such as he was going to ban assualt rifles, and tax ammo like 500%. Fucking talk about fear tactics... As far as i know obama hasn't brought up either issue in the past 18months, sooooo the NRA is more responsible for the gun sale boost then obama getting elected.

It's honestly a big cluster fuck, kids will buy guns when they want to shoot up thier school, and thats really bad.... but you can't outlaw guns, then just the criminally minded individuals will be the ones buying guns on the black market and thats also really bad.

[kaiser soze]

Senior citizen shoots 4, kills 1 at church retreat

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30100435

TEMECULA, Calif. - Authorities said late on Tuesday that at least four people had been shot and one killed at a Korean Christian retreat in Southern California.

Riverside County Sheriff's spokesman Dennis Guttierez said the gunman was likely one of the people hospitalized after the shooting Tuesday night in Temecula, about 85 miles southeast of Los Angeles.

He said at least two of the victims had been critically injured.

Mario Lopez of the California Highway Patrol said officers responded to the retreat at about 7 p.m. after hearing a man had shot his wife. He said one person was dead when they arrived.

Guttierez said the language barrier was making it hard to get all the facts and that some nuns at the scene were very distraught.

Guns don't kill people, guns help extremely despondent people injure and kill other people more quickly and with little effort

[yeahwho]

The American Dream was pretty much just vandalized by 8 years of presidential neglect, we're spending between $1 billion at the low end, up to $9 billion at the high end.... per week in Iraq. That money is borrowed. The mortgage crisis, banking failure, insurance losses and bankruptcy of American icons such as GM, Ford and Chrysler still have dust in the air, the reality hasn't settled and I'm afraid when it does we're all in for some very tough times.

That coupled with trillions of dollars of debt in bailouts/ which nobody I associate with understands even 5% of the program, has Americans getting pissed off. The cash flow is gone, gone, gone. It's affected me, it's affected people I know who are now dealing with clusterfuck bureaucracies such as the unemployment office and now it's hitting people who realize nothing they do can overcome the bullshit they've been dealt.

People get mad and make bad decisions everyday, in those moments of rage they plot, scheme, justify and fantasize and that is natural, it is of course the worse time to ever make a decision when your mad at the world.

I think it's also the worse time to be a gun owner and that we have more gun owners now than at any other time in our countries short history.

[funk63]

Is this about that viatnamese guy that shot up a bunch of other viatnamese guys?

[yeahwho]

Is this about that viatnamese guy that shot up a bunch of other viatnamese guys?

That and the daily onslaught of innocent people who've become victims in gun violence this year here in the USA. There has been a spike this past year in innocent people being killed by mentally unstable shooters, usually someone their related to, work with or school association.

It's personal, not criminal. Though criminal usage of guns has also spiked. I have a very hard time accepting this aspect of our rights, I'm not about a ban on guns but I sure am not going to let some fucker tell me it's in the constitution so this is the way it is. That's unacceptable, kids, moms, aunts, uncles, dads, grandpa and grandma don't need to be destroyed without some sort of explanation from gun activists. Justify the rational for this recent carnage.

[saz]

i'm tired of this hippy shit. "ban guns and everything will be fine." idiots.

that's probably one of the most ignorant statements i've read on here of late. no one here has stated that, that banning guns will result in everything being "just fine". as an outsider, i find it completely perplexing that americans feel such a devout attachment to firearms. if you're a hunter or sportsman, fine, i can understand. however, i don't think you need to fear a return of the imperial redcoats. i also imagine too that the founding fathers did not have assault weapons and machine guns in mind when they wrote the bill of rights. regardless, i really don't see why assault weapons can't be banned in the us -just what exactly does a citizen need a machine gun for?


anyways, something else i wanted to bring up here, how the paranoid rantings of alex jones are being picked up and accepted by right-wing commentators like glenn beck, who is stoking the flames of gun wielding nut jobs out there with rants about fema concentration camps and obama taking your guns away:


Did Paranoid Right-Wing Media Fuel the Pittsburgh Cop Killer's Rage?

By Max Blumenthal, The Daily Beast. Posted April 8, 2009.


Richard Poplawski, the man who allegedly murdered three Pittsburgh cops, was clearly influenced by Fox News's Glenn Beck and right-wing radio.

On April 6, two days after the 22-year-old Richard Poplawski allegedly murdered three police officers in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, a radio host named Alex Jones settled in before a microphone in his studio in Austin, Texas to do some damage control. "The mainstream media has certainly enjoyed tying me into this story," Jones complained. "They're attacking me and saying I'm delusional and there's no New World Order The Second Amendment, what the country's founded on--it's all my fault!"

Poplawski was a neo-Nazi wannabe (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09095/960750-53.stm) who railed against blacks, Jews, "Zionists," and gun control. And like many members of the far-right fringe, he allegedly visited Jones' Web sites and posted alarming reports by Jones' writers on the white supremacist message board, Stormfront. (Poplawski's posts are here (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/search.php?searchid=6773059), authored under the handle, "Braced For Fate.") While Alex Jones generally avoids overt racism, he has found an eager audience on Stormfront by conjuring dark visions of an impending New World Order, claiming (http://www.infowars.com/fema-trains-to-take-you-to-the-camps/) FEMA is secretly building a national concentration camp network, and announcing that President Barack Obama has planned mass gun seizures on his way to establishing a leftist dictatorship. "Remember, the first step in establishing a dictatorship is to disarm the citizens," warned a March 13 commentary (http://www.prisonplanet.com/obamas-gun-ban-list-is-out.html) on Jones' website, Prison Planet.

In the wake of Poplawski's alleged murder spree, the killer's friends and family members painted a portrait of a paranoid young man whose worldview was informed almost totally by the kind of conspiratorial themes entertained by Jones. Poplawski's best friend, Edward Perkovic, who also spouted white supremacist rhetoric, told (http://www.pittsburghlive.com:8000/x/pittsburghtrib/news/cityregion/s_619323.html) the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review that his friend "grew angry recently over fears Obama would outlaw guns." Poplawski's mother remarked to police investigators that her son targeted cops "because he believed that as a result of economic collapse, the police were no longer able to protect society."

But hysterical warnings of government gun grabs and a socialist takeover of the U.S. are no longer the sole proprietary interest of fringe players like Jones. In the Obama era, Jones' conspiracy theories have graduated to primetime on Fox News. And radicals like Poplawski are tuning in. Indeed, according (http://www.adl.org/learn/extremism_in_the_news/White_Supremacy/poplawski+report.htm?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_the_News) to the Anti-Defamation League, the alleged killer posted a YouTube clip to Stormfront of top-rated Fox News host Glenn Beck contemplating the existence of FEMA-managed concentration camps. ("He backed out," Poplawski wrote cryptically beside the video.) Three weeks later, Poplawski posted (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?p=6682284#post6682284) another Youtube clip to Stormfront, this time of a video blogger advocating "Tea Parties," or grassroots conservative protests organized by Beck and Fox News contributor Newt Gingrich (see here (http://theglennbeck912project.com/tea-parties-2/%20) and here (http://www.americansolutions.com/ResourceCenter/Read.aspx?guid=0ecb8389-000d-48ac-8b74-5747960e2739)) against President Barack Obama's bailout plan.

Jones has gradually come to be accepted by the right-wing media. In September 2007, Jones interrupted (http://www.roguegovernment.com/news.php?id=3860) a live broadcast by Fox News host Geraldo Rivera (Rivera was reporting at the time on "the secret world of restroom gay sex") by shouting into a megaphone, "9-11 was an inside job!" He was hauled away by NYPD officers soon after. On March 18, however, Jones became a guest of honor inside Fox studios, introduced as "the great Alex Jones" by Fox News contributor Judge Andrew Napolitano during a lengthy segment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZMdA06xbcU&feature=player_embedded) on the online show, The Strategy Room. Towards the end of his spot, Jones celebrated his sudden and dramatic influence on the conservative movement's biggest media personalities.

"I've never seen an awakening this big. I'm seeing Glenn Beck talk about the New World Order on Fox, I'm seeing you talk about it," Jones told Napolitano. "We're seeing Lou Dobbs talk about it, we're seeing mainline hosts--Limbaugh's even talking about global government. Michael Savage is talking about how Obama may stage crises to bring in martial law. So all the things that I was talking about in the wilderness ten plus years ago are now hitting mainstream, and it is great!"

David Neiwert, a veteran reporter on right-wing militia movements and author of the forthcoming book, The Eliminationists: How Hate Talk Radicalized the American Right (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0981576982/thedaibea-20/), explained that by co-opting conspiratorial rhetoric from the farthest shores of the right, mainstream conservative talkers can inflame the passions of paranoiacs like Poplawski to a dangerous degree. "It's always been a problem when major league demagogues start promulgating false information for political gain," Neiwert told me. "What it does is unhinge fringe players from reality and dislodges them even further. When someone like Poplawski hears Glenn Beck touting One World Government and they're gonna take your gun theories, they believe then that it must be true. And that's when they really become crazy."

For Jones, whatever bad publicity he incurred from a fan's alleged killing spree paled in significance to the sudden cachet he has gained among conservative media bigwigs. During his April 6 broadcast, two days after the murders, he boasted, "Now, if you listen to [Sean] Hannity's show, if you listen to Savage; you listen to Limbaugh, it's almost like Alex Jones is hosting the show."


link (http://www.alternet.org/rights/135592/did_paranoid_right-wing_media_fuel_the_pittsburgh_cop_killer%27s_rage/?page=1)

[Burnout18]

so basically what the article is suggesting is that talking heads are manipulating already unstable people to pick up arms and fight for thier rights. Rights btw that obama has yet to try to infringe on.

[yeahwho]

so basically what the article is suggesting is that talking heads are manipulating already unstable people to pick up arms and fight for thier rights. Rights btw that obama has yet to try to infringe on.

It's just one persons point of view, i think the article has it's strengths and it's weaknesses. I also see multiple reasons for the recent upswing in gun related murders. The #1 reason being more guns in the general population than at any other time in our short history as a country.

I'm as guilty as the next person and many of the media's pundits on this issue by just tagging a pet agenda onto the reason for the latest killing spree, be it Obama, NRA, Right Wing Radio, The Economy, all of these and many other stories can be layered into the mix.

From an objective mathematical view, it's numbers.

I agree many of these people are probably not gun nuts, just plain fucking nuts.

Yet we as a society have a responsibility to find some sort of solution to the daily slaughter. What we're doing now apparently is making things worst. I have no answers but I am willing to listen to common sense, not just "I have a right to own a gun" bullshit. Otherwise I am willing to entertain an all out ban on handguns. Because fuck it, either be responsible for finding a solution or give up your right.

Like driving a car, which isn't your right, it's a privilege that comes with responsibility to those around you.

Of course I know the BBMB is probably the worst forum to find an answer to guns and murder on the net, but WTF, it's actually as good as anything the government has done since the BBMB has come into fruition.

[Burnout18]

I actually agreed with the article, or at least what i understood of it..... People are very impressionable, and when you turn to glenn beck or sean hannity for your news and opinions you start to trust them. For eight years they stood up for Bush (mostly, i know beck jumped ship at the end), so if you agreed with bush, you turned to them. You would trust them, so if mr.beck wants people to take up arms and fight for thier rights thaaaaaaan....

Really tho, with my first post in this topic, i said mentally unstable people kill people.... mentally unstable people will listen to the people they trust and act on what they think they hear. I think thats what we saw in pitt.

As for banning handguns i don't think that is the way to go. I'm beginning to think that stupidity and crazies give gun owners a bad name.... Fucken everytime we hear a kid found dad's gun and shoots his friend we blame the guns, not the shitheaded father..... as for the crazies, who knows....

but you are correct sir, we need a solution... and its not easy.

[checkyourprez]

I actually agreed with the article, or at least what i understood of it..... People are very impressionable, and when you turn to glenn beck or sean hannity for your news and opinions you start to trust them. For eight years they stood up for Bush (mostly, i know beck jumped ship at the end), so if you agreed with bush, you turned to them. You would trust them, so if mr.beck wants people to take up arms and fight for thier rights thaaaaaaan....

Really tho, with my first post in this topic, i said mentally unstable people kill people.... mentally unstable people will listen to the people they trust and act on what they think they hear. I think thats what we saw in pitt.

As for banning handguns i don't think that is the way to go. I'm beginning to think that stupidity and crazies give gun owners a bad name.... Fucken everytime we hear a kid found dad's gun and shoots his friend we blame the guns, not the shitheaded father..... as for the crazies, who knows....

but you are correct sir, we need a solution... and its not easy.

yeaaaa but when kid finds daddies playboys, he goes and jerks off. when kid finds daddies gun he plays with it, and kills his sister.

idk. like weve all said difficult situation.

[DroppinScience]

anyways, something else i wanted to bring up here, how the paranoid rantings of alex jones are being picked up and accepted by right-wing commentators like glenn beck, who is stoking the flames of gun wielding nut jobs out there with rants about fema concentration camps and obama taking your guns away:

Christ almighty, I knew Alex Jones was bad news. Even worse that Glenn Beck is borrowing his sheer stupidity.

[D_Raay]

The problem as I see it is not in the guns, rather in the inflammatory rhetoric spewing out regularly from people such as Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity. These guys show absolutely no responsibility when they are screaming every day about how we are on the road to oblivion and how our guns will be taken away. Some of these people really take these guys seriously. It is surprising to me, but it is true.

The fact of the matter is that none of what they say has happened and for them to declare that it definitely will is more than just wrong, it is culpable.

[kaiser soze]

The problem as I see it is not in the guns, rather in the inflammatory rhetoric spewing out regularly from people such as Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity. These guys show absolutely no responsibility when they are screaming every day about how we are on the road to oblivion and how our guns will be taken away. Some of these people really take these guys seriously. It is surprising to me, but it is true.


This is becoming a more popular concept of what is fueling these shootings. I have watched and listened to some of these talkign heads and they are seriously on a rampage about something. If they had half a brain they'd realize the nation is in the condition it is because of their leaders. Here is an article of a shooting last year - It can still be interpreted as coincidence and might possibly be

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/93198/right-wing_pathologies_revealed_after_adkisson_shooting_ at_unitarian_church/

a 59-year-old white man named Jim Adkisson, who left a four-page letter ranting against liberals, was known by his acquaintances to hate "blacks, gays and anyone who was different from him," left a pile of books by O'Reilly, Savage and Hannity behind in his car, and even wore a red-white-and-blue shirt to his church killing spree.

Tons of different articles about this shooting

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=w8E&ei=x_XdSZm-GZLoMIfm6fUJ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=adkisson+shooting&spell=1

[fucktopgirl]

USA should do massive competition of massive shooting and give reward/medal. It could become a national sport.

[kaiser soze]

^ I know that's not your style (n)

Two college shootings!

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/10/mich.college.shooting/

Two people were shot and killed Friday at a community college in Dearborn, Michigan, in what police believe was a murder-suicide, an official said.
The Henry Ford Community College campus in Dearborn, Michigan, was locked down after the shooting.

The Henry Ford Community College campus in Dearborn, Michigan, was locked down after the shooting.

A man and woman were found dead in a classroom building on the campus of Henry Ford Community College, Dearborn Deputy Chief Gregg Brighton said.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_GREECE_COLLEGE_SHOOTING?SITE=MALOW&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

ATHENS, Greece (AP) -- A teenage gunman who wounded three people at a college in Greece and killed himself had warned of the attack hours earlier on an Internet posting that included photographs of him posing with weapons, police said.

The attacker warned hours before and nothing? WTF! People are becoming complacent to internet threats of this nature because violence and thuggery are becoming so commonplace as a style.

[Burnout18]

I found an article that is two years old, but still kind of relevent.

http://www.wsmv.com/news/13547471/detail.html

The article basically points out how in tennessee if you register to get a gun, because of a privacy clause they cannot access your mental health records. So the people doing a background check on you don't see your mental condition. Kind of absurd if you ask me. In Virginia they had a similiar clause up until after the VT massacre, but i know in jersey you have to give permission to let them access your Mental health records.... It is different from state to state, but should be a no brainer...

[saz]

Another Deadly Gunman "Severely Disturbed" Over Obama's Election

Joshua Cartwright l Huffington Post l 04/27/09 06:33 PM


Elizabeth Cartwright woke up at 9:30 in the morning on Saturday when her husband couldn't find the Clearasil.

Her husband Joshua "started an argument because he insisted that it was in her purse," according to the police report. She "told him that it was in the bathroom but her husband became increasingly upset."

The couple started brawling in their Florida apartment. Elizabeth managed to escape and get herself to a hospital and call the police, but Joshua didn't stop raging until after he had killed two sheriff's deputies at a gun range, and police officers shot him dead.

According to the police report, Elizabeth Cartwright said her husband "believed that the US Government was conspiring against him. She said he had been severely disturbed that Barack Obama had been elected President."

It isn't the first shooting incident in recent weeks after which a crazed gunman's political ravings have made headlines. On April 4, after Richard Poplawski killed three police officers, several of Poplawski's friends told the Associated Press (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/04/police-several-pa-officer_n_183130.html) that Poplawski "feared the Obama administration was poised to ban guns."

From the Northwest Florida Daily News (http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/cartwright_16963___article.html/elizabeth_deputies.html):

"None of it's logical, none of it makes sense," said interim Sheriff Ed Spooner on Sunday. "He'd obviously just got something else in his mind."

The AP reports that Cartwright exchanged fire with the deputies after being stunned with a Taser: (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gt3N6I1HRjHJ7_SJK4SMwsRNzVcgD97QEI400)

"When that Taser released after five seconds, he came up shooting," Interim Okaloosa County Sheriff Edward Spooner said.

"He went from just being disagreeable to using deadly force in a matter of seconds. It was a very aggressive move with a concealed weapon on his part."

Spooner said that between 30 and 40 rounds were exchanged between Cartwright and the two deputies.


link (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/27/joshua-cartwright-cop-kil_n_191929.html)