Could the Yankees be cursed ?!?

[kaiser soze]

I fear they are

As a yanks fan for 26 years I hate knowing that they are becoming something other than a family past time. The stadium is utter bullshit excess, prices for tickets and food are fucking disgusting and the team is looking like shit.

I don't know how much longer I can care about them.....

[YoungRemy]

who knows, but I loved this story about new Yankee Stadium:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3344825

[b i o n i c]

i hope so, fuck baseball(n)

the assault on peoples wallets at ballgames, its way too much

[kaiser soze]

who knows, but I loved this story about new Yankee Stadium:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3344825

That is classy of them, could they also donate some quality game time for their fans now?

[RobMoney$]

Yes, the Yankees were never greedy before this year.
I don't blame you for abandoning them now that they can't win anymore.

[Whatitis]

Wang is sucking huge ass!

/traded

[RobMoney$]

I actually could not be happier.
The Yankees have been ruining the game of baseball with their greed and excess for years.
They will once again spend $200 million for absolutely no reason at all because they will not be in the playoffs again.

Don't call it a curse, it's just plain old karma.

[jabumbo]

amen to that, rob


i know quite a few yankee fans, and they complete deny this every time it comes up in baseball talk. they pin it all on the fact that just because my team is pathetic, i have to pin the blame on somebody else

[RobMoney$]

I seriously have to laugh at someone from Buffalo even claiming the Yankees as their team.
You live 2 hours from Toronto and 6.5 hours to NYC.
You do the math.

[kaiser soze]

This coming from a Cardinal fan from Philly :rolleyes:
Last I checked Buffalo is in New York State
you do the math.

oh and just wanted to let you know that the Yanks still have a better record than the Phillies

[YoungRemy]

i got swallowed up in the 2001 Series with the Yankees and the Diamondbacks, with the whole 9/11 storyline in the background...

in 2003, I was punched in the face by a Yankee fan during Interleague Play with the Houston Astros. The Yankees had won and we were wearing our (Houston) gear. Assholes started shit like the classy fans that they are.

The next night, 6 Astros (Roy Oswalt, Pete Munro, Kirk Saarloos, Brad Lidge, Octavio Dotel and Billy Wagner) threw a historic no-hitter , the first no-no against the Yankees in Yankee Stadium since 1952 .

[RobMoney$]

You're 2 hours from Toronto, and 6.5 hours from NYC.
Sorry bro, but you're in Jays territory in my book.

Phillies are the losingest franchise in the North American sports, with over 10,000 loses. They have a winning team once every decade.
And you don't see me jumping off the bandwagon.

Yankees have 26 championships and you're making threads crying that they can't compete anymore. Your fandom is a disgrace.
$200 million and they lost by 18 runs today, and you're making fun of my team? That's jsut typical Yankee fan behavior right there.




...and I'm not a fan of the Cardinals, I rooted for them in the SB.
I do have much respect for Warner and Fitz too.

[kaiser soze]

oh jesus - like I don't know what rooting for a losing team is like :rolleyes:

Obviously your single celled mind has quickly forgotten that I'm from Buffalo - The city known for losing with style. I have also been a fan of the Yankees since the day I knew what baseball was - 26 years. They weren't always champions those 26 years. I remember my friends who were fans of the Mets rubbing it in my face in middle school.

I didn't give up than and I won't give up now - I was just venting a bit, I guess I can't do that dear BBMB overlord

chill out

[RobMoney$]

You're probably a Lakers, Red Wings, and Cowboys fan too, right?

[kaiser soze]

omg how'd you guess?!?!

[Whatitis]

You know...I hate the Yankees just as much as the next but I have always admired the way they tried to stay competitive. And thats comming from a die hard Dodger fan. I hate the Yanks. Can't blame them for trying but deep down love to see em lose. Yankee fan is everywhere, can't blame them for sticking with a storied/competitive team.

[RobMoney$]

Funny thing is, they don't "stick with them".
They abandon ship as soon as they realize they aren't gonna win, or start making excuses like a "curse" or some dumb shit.
They usually lack any moral fiber whatsoever and it makes me sick.
Yes, 26 championships and YOU are the ones who are cursed,
B-O-O H-O-O.
The very definition of Frontrunners.
Pathetic.

[YoungRemy]

and yes, the Yankees are cursed.

remember the days when the chant "1918" meant something?

[RobMoney$]

We haven't been able to buy a championship in almost 10 years,
We must be cursed!


Claiming that's a curse is an insult to all teams who actually are cursed.

[adam_f]

200 million dollar payroll and Nick Swisher has been their best player. Hell, even their best pitcher...and yes, he's on my fantasy team so I'm biased.

[RobMoney$]

10 reasons the Yankees suck other than a "curse"

1. A-Roid
2. Jeter is the worst defensive SS in the game anymore.
3. He's also not a leadoff hitter either. Never was.
4. Posada is too old
5. Joba...he's a reliever, he's a starter, no he's a reliever. Pitchers need to know their roles in order to pitch with any kind of confidence. Stop fucking with the kid and decide what role you want him to play for you.
6. CC won't be any good until around the break. He didn't do anything last year until Cleveland sent him to Milwaukee around that time. Again, give him time to settle into his role in the new city
7. $180 million for Texiera? He's a good player, but he ain't THAT good.
8. Johnny Damon stopped caring a long time ago.
9. Mariano's a legend, but he's no good to you if you don't have any other pitching to get you to him.
10. You need to get younger and faster, but that'll never happen as long as you keep over-paying for mid-thirties FA's. Start producing some of your own players and stop over-paying for everyone else's.
It's the reason why a team like Tampa is now winning your division and making runs deep into the playoffs while you sit home all off-season to read what A-Roid is doing to embaress himself on a daily basis.

[mathcart]

I fear they are

As a yanks fan for 26 years I hate knowing that they are becoming something other than a family past time. The stadium is utter bullshit excess, prices for tickets and food are fucking disgusting and the team is looking like shit.

I don't know how much longer I can care about them.....

Funny I said nearly the exact same thing this week when i refused my friends kind offer of tix!

Oh and fuck you for suggesting that shit!

DAMN YOU YANKEES! I CANT QUIT YOU!
:mad:

[mathcart]

So I only read all the other posts (after the first) after my above posts. Think its so funny how people hate on the Yanks. Nobody complains when its time to cash in those luxury tax checks do they now? Shit Tampa g'd Bay could only exist because the Yankees were keeping them, and at least a third the league by the way, afloat financially till they were able to build the young team to attract fans so they could make some money on their own. And I say good for them- good for every team that was able to pocket several million dollars from the Yankees every year to claim they were profitable and short the team and their fans by not investing in their organization. OH HOW HAVE I NEVER SEEN THAT BEFORE, WHAT A CONVINCING ARGUMENT! Thank you for opening my eyes, I would much rather be a fan of your crappy teams that treat the fans with such respect. Oh wait, no I wouldn't.

With anything this is about the tyranny of expectations. Our expectations are to win a championship every year. Yours are to be able to get a nice hat and a sack of nachos while singing take me out to the ball game during the stretch. Don't hate because you don't even remember the damn point. Never underestimate the power of the dark side...

[Whatitis]

^ Typical myopic Yankee fan. You clearly underestimate the expectations of nearly every other team in the league. And it may be said the the Yanks do too by thinking they can try to buy a championship every year. Well, it hasn't worked for quite a while. You might have talent but chemistry goes a long way. The last 8 years are proof of that.

[bigblu89]

As a Mets fan, I obviously have a slight dislike for the Yankees. I have to.

But knowing that the last time they won it all, they have raised the payroll by more than $120 million, and have nothing to show for it, makes me smile a little.

That being said, the whole "Yankees buy Championships" way of thinking is highly flawed. They broke the bank to keep the main core of home grown players (Jeter, Bernie, Rivera, Pettite before he went to Houston), but ever since they starting really paying over the top to put an All Star team on the field, they haven't won shit.

It would be like non-Philly fans complaining that the Phillies raised their payroll to keep Howard, Utley and Rollins on the team.

[RobMoney$]

It would be like non-Philly fans complaining that the Phillies raised their payroll to keep Howard, Utley and Rollins on the team.

What are you talking about?
Utley makes around $12 mil. a year, and Rollins makes around $8.
They're both locked up for the next few years too.

They did have to pay Howard, but being an MVP in '07 and runner-up in '08 (and thanks to the Yankees for inflating the market) he stood to make $20 mil a year in arbitration anyway, so they signed him for the 3 years he was arbitration eligible at $56 mil.

All three are examples of a team showing sound financial planning to keep their payroll under control. They won the WS and their payroll increased by about $10 mil. overall.

They let Pat Burell go (a Phillie drafted player) because of money.
The Yankee mentality would have been to sign Burrell because you just can't afford to let your "core" players walk away, right?

[RobMoney$]

Nobody complains when its time to cash in those luxury tax checks do they now? Shit Tampa g'd Bay could only exist because the Yankees were keeping them, and at least a third the league by the way, afloat financially till they were able to build the young team to attract fans so they could make some money on their own. And I say good for them- good for every team that was able to pocket several million dollars from the Yankees every year to claim they were profitable and short the team and their fans by not investing in their organization.


Ok genius, let's shoot this "luxury tax" argument to shreds.

1. The Yankees luxury tax was a total of $26.9 mil. for the 2008 season.
There are 29 other teams in the league. That equals $927 thousand per team.
How Grand! Everyone is + $927,000.

2. Now you went out and decided to pay Texiera $180 mil over 8 years to play 1st base for you. That's an average of $22.5 mil a year for a player who's never won an MVP.
Congradulations, you're the big, rich Yankees and you can afford to overpay for any FA you want.
But now you just fucked the rest of the league because you just raised the salary structure for 1st basemen for the entire league.
Ryan Howard is now worth more than $22.5 mil because he hits 10 more HR's and twenty more RBI's a year than Texiera.
He's gonna want $25 mil.

So the Yankees can take their $925 grand in luxury tax and shove it up their ass. They're out of control spending is doing far more harm than good and it'll eventually lead to MLB adopting a salary cap.
I predict within the next 5 years.

[mathcart]

not sure why the FACT that the Yankees give every team a million dollars shoots my argument to shreds. Especially in this economy when teams are treading on razor thin margins to be profitable. In fact I think it only strengthens the argument. I suggest you do a little research on the fact that most teams are NOT making money and of those that are most are making the amount of the luxury tax they get (not just from the Yankees by the damn way) OR LESS! So thanks so recognizing my genius Rob, its good to be recognized in your own time.

Its also a little disingenuous to say that Free Agent spending is out of control due to the Yankees. It's also absurdly stupid. The Yankees are far the only team signing FA's to big contracts or even bad contracts. Anaheim, Boston, LA shit the mid market teams all do it too.

Actually I find this argument SO fucking embarrassingly illogical. The system's been aware of the excesses of the "have" teams for some time and have done nothing to correct it.

I just want to point out that there's a lot of people crying about the disparities in baseball and how unfair it is but how much you wanna bet call Obama a socalist that he proposed raising taxes on the richest 1% of the country 3%. Fucking absurd the crying in baseball disportionate to the lack of understanding of where class really makes a difference in peoples lives.
That last bits not in response to anyone. Just got my panties all in a bunch is all.

I actually am more of a moneyballer than my Yankee fandom would seem to indicate, but its just a time I've had to reconcile that the team I grew up loving doesn't operate the way i would like them to. Shit welcome to NY, it happens all the time (anyone have any intrest in kidnapping the dolans...)

[RobMoney$]

not sure why the FACT that the Yankees give every team a million dollars shoots my argument to shreds. Especially in this economy when teams are treading on razor thin margins to be profitable.

They give every team $927 grand while raising the price for every position around the league.
You give a team like the Phillies a $1 mil, yet you just raised Howard's price by $5 mil.
So you aren't saving anyone anything.
Get it?

In fact I think it only strengthens the argument. I suggest you do a little research on the fact that most teams are NOT making money and of those that are most are making the amount of the luxury tax they get (not just from the Yankees by the damn way) OR LESS! So thanks so recognizing my genius Rob, its good to be recognized in your own time.

So you're suggesting that there are MLB clubs making less than $1 mil dollars a year (the amount of the Yankees luxury tax)?
What a foolish assumption.

Considering the MLB operates under an anti-trust exemption and is not required to make public any teams' financial statements. I don't see how you can say how much any team is making or losing.
I challenge you to link anything stating factual financial statements for any MLB club.
You can't.
Any financial numbers you can find will be nothing more than speculative estimates on profit & loss.

Also, when you consider that regardless of how much any team may be operating in the red in any certain year is clearly offset by the increase of the value of the franchise, you'll understand how foolish your claims that the Yankees measly $1 mil dollar luxury tax revenue having any impact at all to any club become.
I mean what do you think, that these franchise owners are such benevolent people that they would continue to operate a franchise that loses millions of dollars out of the kindness of their hearts or because they enjoy baseball and want to provide it for the people of ther city? LOL.

[mathcart]

Rob you really don't think any teams are losing money?

A quick google search turned up the following from such reputable sources as WSJ & NYT:

about the Rangers:
"Here's what the Wall Street Journal has to add to the story of Tom Hicks's refusal to pay off Hicks Sports Group's debt:
Creditors to Texas financier Tom Hicks's Hicks Sports Group have declared the company in default, a measure that could eventually dislodge the Texas Rangers baseball club and Dallas Stars hockey franchise from his control.

To which The New York Times adds, for those without Journal access: "The Rangers baseball team and the Stars hockey team are now unable to pay both their operating expenses and their debt service, the newspaper said."

about the Angels:
"While Disney can wave the Angels' first World Series flag, it has lost $100 million during its ownership. It also discovered that owning sports teams (its Anaheim Mighty Ducks team is also for sale) did not lead to synergies with its movies, TV programs, networks like ESPN and theme parks.

While World Series success pumped up Angels' season tickets by 61 percent to 21,000, the team will still probably lose money because its payroll jumped 21 percent"


Very Interesting things in this article about the rays: about tampa bay here (http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/article798361.ece)

highlights-
"Are the Tampa Bay Rays turning a profit?
The team declines to open its books but says it lost $20-million to $30-million the past two seasons and has budgeted for a loss this year(2008)"

"he rest of the Rays' revenues come from somewhere else.

The first pot, called the Major League Baseball Central Fund, is split equally among teams and represents the payouts for baseball's national television contract and successful Internet business. That payout will be around $35-million per team in 2008.

The second pot of national baseball revenues shifts money made by the league's highest-earning clubs to the league's lowest-earning franchises. Tampa Bay will receive almost another $35-million in revenue sharing. "

"Trying to justify public investment in a retractable-roof stadium in Milwaukee, baseball officials released 10 years of financial statements starting in 1994.

The audited statements suggest about half of the expenses were player salaries.

As it turns out, Major League Baseball financial statements published from 2001 suggest a similar ratio. According to MLB's own analysis, payroll costs accounted for no less 41 percent of a team's overall expenses and no more than 68 percent."

[mathcart]

They give every team $927 grand while raising the price for every position around the league.
You give a team like the Phillies a $1 mil, yet you just raised Howard's price by $5 mil.
So you aren't saving anyone anything.
Get it?

See numbers above they are getting $35 mil in lux tax money total (remember its not just the Yankees) AND another $35 mil in revenue sharing from MLB. so with the help of very rich clubs like the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Red Sox and Angels clubs like Tampa, Milwaukee, Minnesota, Florida (etc) are covering their operating expenses or as has been widely writen about turning a profit based on the overall health of the industry- NOT of their franchise. This is has been so widely reported it seems truly unlikely you are unaware of this- just makes being condescending easier I suppose.




So you're suggesting that there are MLB clubs making less than $1 mil dollars a year (the amount of the Yankees luxury tax)?
What a foolish assumption.

Considering the MLB operates under an anti-trust exemption and is not required to make public any teams' financial statements. I don't see how you can say how much any team is making or losing.
I challenge you to link anything stating factual financial statements for any MLB club.
You can't.
Any financial numbers you can find will be nothing more than speculative estimates on profit & loss.

See above, although again I just want to point out that I never said the Yankees were keeping these teams afloat with their $1 mil payouts, but instead in concert with all the luxury tax money and revenue sharing many teams were able to be financially viable w/out investing in their own operations.

Also, when you consider that regardless of how much any team may be operating in the red in any certain year is clearly offset by the increase of the value of the franchise, you'll understand how foolish your claims that the Yankees measly $1 mil dollar luxury tax revenue having any impact at all to any club become.
I mean what do you think, that these franchise owners are such benevolent people that they would continue to operate a franchise that loses millions of dollars out of the kindness of their hearts or because they enjoy baseball and want to provide it for the people of ther city? LOL.

C'mon Rob. What I think bothers me most about any exchange with you is that your so condescending and rude. I take time to think about any argument you or anyone else makes without dismissing it out of hand but totally misrepresenting the original intent. Maybe I'm giving you too much credit. Just botheres me. But back to the discussion;

Actually as you said the increase in the value of the franchise is the only sure way for teams to be profitable- the sale of a team seems to be one of the only sure ways for teams to make the majority of their money. As for teams acting in the benevolent interests of their municipalities Moneyball actually describes that as the exact operating philosophy of the Oakland A's until the owners decided they couldn't lose any more money on them so they started the new philosophy, but that was the operating model for 3 decades. Not a great business model but also not something to snicker at and say it would never happen!

I think I'm all done with this since we aren't going to convince each other of anything. Enjoy the season.
:)

[Burnout18]

I was at the new yankee stadium today.... it was cool, but nothing really blew me away.... i heard Citifield is nicer and i believe it.

You cannot buy championships, the yankees are proof of that, ( and the redskins are proof of that, too).... when the yankees won in the late 90's I think the mariners had the highest payroll. There is something to be said about athletes getting thier big money contract, then coasting. They spent a shitload on guys that didnt play well. Pavano, kevin brown, giambi sucked after he got caught with roids, and fucken arod sucks every other year. In fact, i'm willing to bet the yankees won't win a world series with A-rod in thier uniform. I don't like him and I'm embarassed to wear my yankees #13 jersey.... in fact its in the closet next to my plaxico and shockey jerseys.

[adam_f]

You know what's nice about having a shitty team in a really nice stadium (PNC Park)?

The cheap seats are $9 and they're still good seats. I'm just saying. There's no underlying point here.

[RobMoney$]

See numbers above they are getting $35 mil in lux tax money total (remember its not just the Yankees) AND another $35 mil in revenue sharing from MLB. so with the help of very rich clubs like the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Red Sox and Angels clubs like Tampa, Milwaukee, Minnesota, Florida (etc) are covering their operating expenses or as has been widely writen about turning a profit based on the overall health of the industry- NOT of their franchise. This is has been so widely reported it seems truly unlikely you are unaware of this- just makes being condescending easier I suppose.

Oh, you decided not to post any factual financial figures and decided to continue with your suppositions and estimates?
Well allow me to provide some factual figures for you then.

Perhaps if your ego would allow you to forget this notion that the YankMee's are supporting the entire league, or a good portion of it for two seconds you might be able to learn something.

Do you know what the threshold for the luxury tax is for this year, 2009 is?
It's $162 million.
Luxury Tax figures for each year of the 5 year Labor Agreement signed in 2007 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2637615)
Now tell me how many teams have a payroll over $162 million.

Give up?

THAT'S RIGHT....ONE. The New York Yankees with $201 million dollars. That means they're the only team paying it this year.
The team with the next highest payroll is the other NY team, the Mets who come in at $135 million (and I'd argue that even that is out of control). So that means they're well below luxury tax territory, $27 million below.
2009 MLB Team Payrolls (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090408&content_id=4170640&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb&partnerId=rss_mlb)


So none of those so-called rich clubs you listed are anywhere close to having to pay one dime in luxury tax.
In fact, the Red Sox, being the rich club that they are, are actually one of the major proponents lobbying FOR a salary cap (http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090218&content_id=3843924&vkey=news_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos).
And BTW, The '04 and '07 Red Sox are the only teams to ever win a WS with a payroll over $100 million.


See above, although again I just want to point out that I never said the Yankees were keeping these teams afloat with their $1 mil payouts, but instead in concert with all the luxury tax money and revenue sharing many teams were able to be financially viable w/out investing in their own operations.

ORLY?
Remember posting this:

mathcart:
Think its so funny how people hate on the Yanks. Nobody complains when its time to cash in those luxury tax checks do they now? Shit Tampa g'd Bay could only exist because the Yankees were keeping them, and at least a third the league by the way, afloat financially till they were able to build the young team to attract fans so they could make some money on their own. And I say good for them- good for every team that was able to pocket several million dollars from the Yankees every year to claim they were profitable and short the team and their fans by not investing in their organization.

With anything this is about the tyranny of expectations. Our expectations are to win a championship every year. Yours are to be able to get a nice hat and a sack of nachos while singing take me out to the ball game during the stretch. Don't hate because you don't even remember the damn point. Never underestimate the power of the dark side...
/quote

You even go so far as to think that the Yankees are the only team who has expectations to win a championship, and you're calling me condescending?



C'mon Rob. What I think bothers me most about any exchange with you is that your so condescending and rude. I take time to think about any argument you or anyone else makes without dismissing it out of hand but totally misrepresenting the original intent. Maybe I'm giving you too much credit. Just botheres me. But back to the discussion;

**COUGH** How fucking open minded of you **COUGH**
BTW, DID YOU READ THE PART OF YOUR POST THAT I BOLDED FOR YOU, MR SMUG YANKEE FAN???

Actually as you said the increase in the value of the franchise is the only sure way for teams to be profitable- the sale of a team seems to be one of the only sure ways for teams to make the majority of their money. As for teams acting in the benevolent interests of their municipalities Moneyball actually describes that as the exact operating philosophy of the Oakland A's until the owners decided they couldn't lose any more money on them so they started the new philosophy, but that was the operating model for 3 decades. Not a great business model but also not something to snicker at and say it would never happen!

Yes, thanks for reitirating my point back to me.
Glad you're starting to see things my way.

[bigblu89]

What are you talking about?
Utley makes around $12 mil. a year, and Rollins makes around $8.
They're both locked up for the next few years too.

They did have to pay Howard, but being an MVP in '07 and runner-up in '08 (and thanks to the Yankees for inflating the market) he stood to make $20 mil a year in arbitration anyway, so they signed him for the 3 years he was arbitration eligible at $56 mil.

All three are examples of a team showing sound financial planning to keep their payroll under control. They won the WS and their payroll increased by about $10 mil. overall.

They let Pat Burell go (a Phillie drafted player) because of money.
The Yankee mentality would have been to sign Burrell because you just can't afford to let your "core" players walk away, right?

No no, you read it wrong. I was saying that you can't fault a team for breaking the bank to keep their core group of players together.

My main thing is, I don't understand why everyone hates the Yankees because of how they spend. Since 2000, when they really started the whole "outbidding/over pay for everyone" mentality, they have nothing to show for it, other then a huge luxury tax bill.

[Burnout18]

You know what's nice about having a shitty team in a really nice stadium (PNC Park)?

The cheap seats are $9 and they're still good seats. I'm just saying. There's no underlying point here.

At yankee stadium the bleacher seats are 11 bucks.... so thats not so bad i guess.

[bigblu89]

At yankee stadium the bleacher seats are 11 bucks.... so thats not so bad i guess.

Depends. Do you like seeing the rightfielder?

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/redcardshoe/cheap_span.jpg

[Whatitis]

Dodger stadium nosebleeds are at $9 and you get a nice view from up there. But for $35 you can sit out in the right field all-you-can-eat section with all the fatties.