Pennsylvania teens acquitted of murder of Mexican Immigrant - All White Jury

[kaiser soze]

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/01/pa.immigrant.beating/index.html?eref=edition

POTTSVILLE, Pennsylvania (CNN) -- A fomer Pennsylvania high school football player was acquitted of murder Friday in the beating death of a Mexican immigrant last summer.



Prosecutors alleged the teens baited the undocumented Mexican immigrant into a fight with racial epithets, provoking an exchange of punches and kicks that ended with Ramirez convulsing in the street, foaming from the mouth.

He died two days later in a hospital in Danville.

Piekarsky, 17, had faced a charge of third-degree murder for allegedly delivering a fatal kick to Ramirez's head after he was knocked to the ground. He also was found not guilty of ethnic intimidation, aggravated assault and attempting to solicit a cover-up.

Prosecutors alleged the teens baited the undocumented Mexican immigrant into a fight with racial epithets, provoking an exchange of punches and kicks that ended with Ramirez convulsing in the street, foaming from the mouth.

He died two days later in a hospital in Danville.

Piekarsky, 17, had faced a charge of third-degree murder for allegedly delivering a fatal kick to Ramirez's head after he was knocked to the ground. He also was found not guilty of ethnic intimidation, aggravated assault and attempting to solicit a cover-up.

So what is this then? Manslaughter? The guy is dead, someone KILLED him, but I don't see any word of them being convicted of that either.

I doubt justice was served

[Burnout18]

high school football players get away with anything.


Ha what a joke, local hero kills a man and gets away with it. I don't care if he was here legally or illegally, who the fuck made that decision, the oj jury?

[Knuckles]

Were either of you two guys on the jury? Do you have all the details of the case?

I'm not trying to be a dick but I really think it's hard to pass judgment without knowing all the details.

[YoungRemy]

blame the incompetent prosecutor who couldn't close the case.

the article says that the kids only were guilty of assault because they couldn't prove that they provided the fatal blow to the head.

there is one scapegoat in the case who is a juvenile and is taking most of te blame.

this I read by clicking the link provided

the key words in the article are alleged and allegedly

[Bob]

it's been a while since criminal law, but this feels like felony murder to me. i can't remember how that works though, or how pennsylvania does it

[saz]

sounds like a serious swarming in which one kid took the fall, and that the prosecution royally screwed up.

i won't be surprised if right-wing hate talk radio will spin this as some sort of victory for america.

[RobMoney$]

Were either of you two guys on the jury? Do you have all the details of the case?

I'm not trying to be a dick but I really think it's hard to pass judgment without knowing all the details.


The level of white guilt that exists in this forum never ceases to amaze me.

White kids accused of killing a minority and being found not guilty?
It's just too good of a story for the campus fuckface's NOT to jump all over.

[Bob]

The level of white guilt that exists in this forum never ceases to amaze me.

White kids accused of killing a minority and being found not guilty?
It's just too good of a story for the campus fuckface's NOT to jump all over.

well to be fair it goes a little beyond being "accused of killing a minority", there doesn't seem to be any dispute that the defendants were part of a group of (drunk) kids who accosted a mexican, called him a spic (or something), and then beat him to death, the issue is just whether the individual defendants were the ones that kicked him in the head while he was down. whether they did it or not, they were involved in something very, very, very wrong, i don't think there's any debate...about...that...?

THAT SAID, i don't think it's fair to look at this and say "ugh, racist jury". the jury was being asked to convict a teenager of murder. that's a heavy, heavy thing to do, even when they are obviously guilty. it's even harder when you're not sure. they heard the evidence, they got the judge's instructions, they deliberated, and decided to acquit. i don't know why they did it, nobody does but them. maybe racism had something to do with it (conciously or not), or maybe they considered the evidence and, in light of the judge's instructions on the applicable law, they concluded that there was reasonable doubt such that they couldn't unanimously convict a teenager for murder. i dunno. juries are weird. maybe it was the right decision, maybe it wasn't. if there were a way to objectively know that, then we wouldn't need juries. but there's not.

[kaiser soze]

The level of white guilt that exists in this forum never ceases to amaze me.

White kids accused of killing a minority and being found not guilty?
It's just too good of a story for the campus fuckface's NOT to jump all over.

talk about elitist fuckface, your racism always shines through rob

you couldn't tell injustice from that crusty hole in your ass

[yeahwho]

When convicted of murder, many teens will not get the full effect of the justice system anyway. Here in Seattle we had another case similar in crime but different in justice, the teens were convicted of beating a local icon to death outside of a sports arena.

They jumped the Tuba Man and beat him to death for $5. They will be out of jail in months. That is what happens and that is how justice works. Story (http://www.nwcn.com/statenews/washington/stories/NW_042209WAB-AP_tuba-man-killers-sentence-JM.fec26872.html).

[yeahwho]

The level of white guilt that exists in this forum never ceases to amaze me.

White kids accused of killing a minority and being found not guilty?
It's just too good of a story for the campus fuckface's NOT to jump all over.

talk about elitist fuckface, your racism always shines through rob

you couldn't tell injustice from that crusty hole in your ass


I too was puzzled by the header of this post which included "All White Jury" it just provokes race into the thread, doesn't it?

The actual news story didn't have All White Jury in it's headline.

[saz]

but it's included in the story:


An all-white jury of six men and six women heard from several prosecution witnesses, including a juvenile co-defendant and another teen who pleaded guilty in federal court for his role in the fight.

While the jury heard conflicting accounts about who initiated the encounter or delivered the final kick to Ramirez's head, defense lawyers attempted to place the blame on another co-defendant, who is facing charges in juvenile court, and Colin Walsh, who has pleaded guilty to violating Ramirez's civil rights.


we really don't know if the all-white jury was a factor or not. it could be, but honestly we really don't know. it's must mere speculation. at this point i have to say that the prosecution failed, and that one teenager wasn't responsible, but all of them were as they attacked and brutally assaulted luis ramirez. we'll have to wait and see what else comes out in order to learn more about this story, which frankly is extremely disturbing and sickening.

[yeahwho]

There were multiple race and gang affiliations in the Tuba Mans death, the nutcases around our part of the Country tried to make that an issue, which to me only aggravates the problem.

The issue is violence as a solution to anything. It could of well of been Asian's who killed the Mexican. But really what it boils down to is violence, murder and some pretty fucked up individuals.

[Bob]

i think there's some pretty strong evidence that this is a racial crime, though, i mean



The juvenile admitted on the stand to shouting "go home you Mexican [expletive]" after the first fight dispersed, prompting Ramirez to turn back and attack him.

[yeahwho]

i think there's some pretty strong evidence that this is a racial crime, though, i mean
Yes I understand that he was charged with ethnic intimidation. I also know that the justice system has a back log of hate crimes.

I have sort of become numb to the accessories that brutal violence and death has had attached to it by our legal system. If it is a hate crime, crime of passion, martyr murder/suicide whatever the fuck the court system wants to label them, I find the actual violence and brutality inherent in the perps make-up to be enough to condemn and convict.

This may be a story of race to some, but to me race is just a trigger to the larger problem of violence and brutality in our society and how we label it to fit our identikit.

The Tubaman's death was handled by the NW media without much information on the teens gang affiliation, but the comments in the media brought out thousands of white supremacists points of view. It was a hate fest last month after sentencing. How that helps anybody resolve the brutality of these acts I haven't a clue.

The same goes here for the All White Jury remark.

[RobMoney$]

talk about elitist fuckface, your racism always shines through rob

you couldn't tell injustice from that crusty hole in your ass


Or perhaps the prosecution did not prove their case BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.
As Bob and others have pointed out, that is still the law.

Your ongoing agenda against whites, white juries, white cops, and the old white GOP is more racist than anything I've ever posted, it's just that it happens to be racism of a non-traditional variety so-to-speak.
It's a veiled racism nonetheless tho.

[kaiser soze]

Sure thing, I hate whitey :rolleyes:

no, I hate assholes - it just seems that the ones I post about are white

Are you saying the GOP is strictly white people? If so....maybe there is a reason why.

This jury was filled with white people (maybe it is a matter of circumstance due to the demographics of the area this crime was committed) and there must be a reason why the media is picking up on this. But how could anyone not see that this was a racial crime and murder or manslaughter in the least?

[RobMoney$]

Sure thing, I hate whitey :rolleyes:

no, I hate assholes - it just seems that the ones I post about are white

Are you saying the GOP is strictly white people? If so....maybe there is a reason why.

This jury was filled with white people (maybe it is a matter of circumstance due to the demographics of the area this crime was committed) and there must be a reason why the media is picking up on this. But how could anyone not see that this was a racial crime and murder or manslaughter in the least?

People of all races are found not guilty everyday of crimes that they most likely committed that the media doesn't report anything about.
I don't think you're that naive to think guilty are always found guilty.

As the saying goes, our judicial system is not a perfect system, but it's the best mankind has come up with yet.

[Documad]

there must be a reason why the media is picking up on this

The media frustrates the hell out of me. The media goes for sensationalism every time instead of actually teaching people about their government and their justice system.

I don't know anything about the case--maybe it was a travesty of justice--I can't tell from the article. Here's what I do know, in general. When a bunch of people were in a fight and they're all accused of doing something wrong, and one of them is on trial, and one of them pled guilty to a lesser charge and got a sweet deal for testifying against the one on trial, a jury can find reasonable doubt pretty easily. They can believe that the guy who did the testifying was lying to get the deal and get himself off the hook. If there is another guy in the empty chair (in this case the juvenile) who also might be the bad guy, then that's even more room for doubt. It's tough to be on a jury. It's tough to decide who to believe when there are conflicting stories. It's not CSI. There's almost never forensic evidence to solve the case. It usually comes down to a jury deciding who they believe. If they can't decide who to believe, they have to acquit because the government has a high burden of proof to meet. The prosecution didn't necessarily fuck up. These cases are messy and difficult cases to try.

And the bit about the all white jury might be a fact of the case, but it's hardly surprising. Most people who show up for jury service are white, even if it's a county with a diverse population.

Also, I've never heard of a crime called ethnic intimidation. We don't have that here. I can't imagine what the prosecution has to prove to get a guilty verdict.

[yeahwho]

Also, I've never heard of a crime called ethnic intimidation. We don't have that here. I can't imagine what the prosecution has to prove to get a guilty verdict.

This where I am admittedly naive, the premise is somebody was killed. That seems unto itself a simple premise.

Like Charlie Manson who was convicted of conspiracy to kill, yet (correct me if I'm wrong) he never was tried for the actual murders, just that it was his idea. He basically was not the trigger man, just the idea man who encouraged murder. Fair enough, justice was served.

But when somebody actually had a physical hand in the death of somebody else, is there really anything outside of self defense to protect you from the simple charge of murder? It seems as if the courts offer a drive through selection of options and the newest ones are hate crimes, obviously the love wasn't flowing and temporary insanity doesn't flow in 90% of any murder I've read about in my life.

I guess I'm just old fashion in how I want to see murderers depicted to jury's.

Do you really think if this was just a case of a high school kid killing another identical kid of the same race the outcome would be different? You could call it "Too Much Like Me Intimidation" if that were the case.

Too many options and slippery roads to go down in our justice system, if anything this is an example of that insanity.

[kaiser soze]

Did the autopsy results have any influence on this case?

The kid admitted kicking the victim in the temple when he was down - most people should know that this type of impact is often devastating if not fatal

sorry, but the case sounds thrown to me

simple assault was the ruling, my guess is this should involuntary manslaughter in the least

small town football heros 1
mexican immigrant 0

I'm sure (and hope) civil charges will follow

[funk63]

Yo kaiser, I think I saw you in the Barnes n Nobles the other day. Weren't you that white guy in the v-neck sweater proclaiming your admiration for black liberation theology? Btw I think you should peep the mexican/white crime statistics nationwide before you point out one tiny little non-incident to try and make yourself look like racial jesus.

[kaiser soze]

Ah yes, a death is a tiny little non-incident, tell that to the children and fiance of the victim.

Do you feel this way about the murders of homosexuals as well? Statically they are as "non-incident" as this according to your opinion.

[Whatitis]

small town football heros1
mexican immigrant 0


Sensationalism at it's best. Kaiser - the Fox News of the BBMB

I most certainately don't agree with the decission of the case but the twist that some football "hero" got away with something is bothersome. How did you come up with that? Nothing in the article said anything about the kid being a football hero, just a football player. Dude could have been a waterboy.

It's the little things that piss me off.

[kaiser soze]

sorry about that - popular football player

:rolleyes:

http://www.wtkr.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-us-immigrant-killing-students,0,1895397.story

Brandon Piekarsky, 17, was acquitted of third-degree murder and ethnic intimidation, while Derrick Donchak, 19, was acquitted of aggravated assault and ethnic intimidation. Both were convicted of simple assault late Friday following a trial in which jurors were left to sort out the facts of an epithet-filled brawl that pitted popular football players against a 25-year-old Hispanic man, Luis Ramirez, who appeared willing to fight.

nothing fox newsy here

[Burnout18]

my opinion was based on the information provided.

[kaiser soze]

huh?

oh the "hero" statement

[yeahwho]

I guess the only logical way to examine this case would be to re-try it in El Paso Texas with an all Mexican/US citizen jury. If this case were presented in the exact same way, I believe an all Mexican/US citizen jury would of acquitted them too.

I have a feeling the outcome would still be just the same and the case would never be talked about here or in the media. It would have to compete with 7000 murders across the border this past year.

Just from what I'm gathering here (http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-immigrant-trial-050109-cn,0,6772203.story)the prosecution fucked up the case, they left reasonable doubt open. The defense pounced on it (sorry about the pun).

[Documad]

Just from what I'm gathering here (http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-immigrant-trial-050109-cn,0,6772203.story)the prosecution fucked up the case, they left reasonable doubt open. The defense pounced on it (sorry about the pun).

The prosecution attorneys didn't necessarily do anything wrong. It's not like in the OJ criminal murder case where they failed to fight the change of venue and decided to treat OJ like a hero instead of a murderer throughout the case.

From the article you linked to, it sounds like a bunch of people were there and they told different stories to the police and later to the jury. That's not the fault of the prosecutors. Most of the time there are different, competing stories. The prosecutors decide who they believe and then go with that theory, but the jury might believe other witnesses instead. Again, I don't know anything except what's in the articles people are posting so I'm just talking out of my ass.

Imagine if a woman claims that she was a victim of date rape. She says it was rape, he says it was consensual. There is no physical evidence showing who is telling the truth. The prosecutor interviews the victim and sincerely believes her. The prosecutor goes forward with the trial, knowing that the prosecutor might lose if the jury believes the defendant instead of the woman, but believing that it's the right thing to do. Those are just the breaks. The prosecutor didn't do anything wrong. The defendants didn't do anything particularly sneaky. Everyone is just doing their jobs. The system is working the way it's supposed to.

[Documad]

Did the autopsy results have any influence on this case?

The kid admitted kicking the victim in the temple when he was down - most people should know that this type of impact is often devastating if not fatal

I'm curious, where are you getting these facts? The articles people have linked to seem to say that the guys who blamed the defendant for the kick were the guys who were trying to get out of trouble themselves (the guy who got the sweet deal and the juvenile). Those guys would have a strong motive to blame someone else. If you live locally maybe you're seeing something more on local news?

[RobMoney$]

The kid admitted kicking the victim in the temple when he was down - most people should know that this type of impact is often devastating if not fatal

What are you talking about?
I watched Randy Orton kick Vince McMahon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgDd0OqT_Ss) directly in the temple, and McMahon came back only a few weeks later and got his revenge on RKO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2rYhaYdJEc&feature=related).

[funk63]

Ah yes, a death is a tiny little non-incident, tell that to the children and fiance of the victim.

Do you feel this way about the murders of homosexuals as well? Statically they are as "non-incident" as this according to your opinion.

Gays straights blacks whites die every day.

[yeahwho]

Everyone is just doing their jobs. The system is working the way it's supposed to.

Exactly, which is what I am gathering from what I've read, hence the "White Jury" comment is nil IMO. I think that this case with the same testimony and closing arguments would get the same results with an all Mexican/US citizen jury in El Paso.

There is reasonable doubt.

[kaiser soze]

Gays straights blacks whites die every day.

wow, you are right. I should've known that!

[funk63]

wow, you are right. I should've known that!

Yeah I know I make some profound arguments don't I.

[kaiser soze]

Reactions

http://www.wnep.com/wnep-shyl-beating-witness-questions-verdict,0,3168148.story

Watch the Video - A former philly police officer subpoenaed and never called to testify

Brandon Piekarsky was charged with third-degree murder. Derrick Donchak was charged with aggravated assault. Both were accused in the beating death of illegal immigrant Luis Ramirez.

A jury threw out the most serious charges, finding the teens guilty of simple assault.

"He had his head, his skull basically taken off to relieve the pressure on the brain and he ends up dying. I am surprised about simple assault, very surprised," said Eileen Burke,a former Philadelphia police officer and a witness to the fight.


http://wfmz.com/view/?id=875774

This Schuylkill County community looks peaceful from afar, but the beating death of 25- year-old Luis Ramirez last summer, exposed long-simmering racial tensions here. Now many in Shenandoah are further divided by Friday's verdict.


Federal Investigations considered

http://www.citizensvoice.com/articles/2009/05/05/news/wb_voice.20090505.t.pg8.cv05cdtrialfollo_s1.249853 1_loc.txt

Federal officials are investigating whether to prosecute two teenagers convicted of simple assault in connection with the fatal beating of an illegal Mexican immigrant in July in Shenandoah, a U.S. Department of Justice spokesman said Monday.


Justice will be served, these kids deserve nothing less than life in prison.

[yeahwho]

All in all a great thread.

Reactions

http://www.wnep.com/wnep-shyl-beating-witness-questions-verdict,0,3168148.story

Watch the Video - A former philly police officer subpoenaed and never called to testify



http://wfmz.com/view/?id=875774



Federal Investigations considered

http://www.citizensvoice.com/articles/2009/05/05/news/wb_voice.20090505.t.pg8.cv05cdtrialfollo_s1.249853 1_loc.txt



Justice will be served, these kids deserve nothing less than life in prison.

When convicted of murder, many teens will not get the full effect of the justice system anyway. Here in Seattle we had another case similar in crime but different in justice, the teens were convicted of beating a local icon to death outside of a sports arena.

They jumped the Tuba Man and beat him to death for $5. They will be out of jail in months. That is what happens and that is how justice works. Story (http://www.nwcn.com/statenews/washington/stories/NW_042209WAB-AP_tuba-man-killers-sentence-JM.fec26872.html).

I'm going to have to say that the reactions of the media in that part of the Country is not helping. I'm not too sure why this case is getting so much attention in a negative sense.

I'm not saying that I'm happy in one sense or another with the outcome of this case, it's the portrayal of the case by the media and blogging idealists that disturbs me.

I also think that people are responsible to a degree to try and learn, make some sense out of this madness, as did the tuba mans brother (http://www.seattlepi.com/local/405403_tubaman22.html?source=mypi) in an eerily similar case here in Seattle.

In the days following his brother's death, Kelsey McMichael said he was overwhelmed by the outpouring of grief in the city.

"When I learned of his death, I was extremely angry and wanted to see who ever was responsible to spend years in prison," he said.

That anger, he said, mellowed as he began to hear from Seattle sports fans that cherished his brother.

In court, he asked only that three boys receive the agreed-upon sentencing recommendation, 15 to 36 weeks for the 15-year-old and twice that for the two 16-year-olds. The two 16-year-olds sentenced Wednesday had also pleaded guilty to a robbery that occurred earlier that night.

[RobMoney$]

So where exactly are you directing your outrage?

First, it was the "ALL-WHITE JURY" who let the "HS Football Stars" get away with murder, now you're posting links that show a witness blaming the Prosecution for not trying a good enough case?

Are you angry with everyone who's white that is related with this case?


I mean imagine that, they were teenagers who got into a fight and were using ethnic slurs. What the hell do you think people say to one another when they're fighting, compliments?

[RobMoney$]

Also, I'd like to know Racial Jesus's opinion on the fact that the victim was here ILLEGALLY.

Maybe these young lads were just trying to apprehend a fugitive from justice and had to employ extreme measures to prevent the criminal from escaping?



And as a resident and taxpayer of the great state of Pennsylvania, I'm curious how the ILLEGAL criminal's medical bills are going to be paid?
Who exactly is going to be paying for this guy's skull to be removed? Sounds pricey to me...Don't look at the taxpayer is all I'm saying, because our state is already in enough of a financial mess.
Somebody grab that relative they interviewed on the news, and check his greencard while we're at it.

[pshabi]

Still can't figure out why they had to include "former high school football player." I mean, isn't that like 50% of American men anyway? WTF?

If I go out tonight and solicit a prostitute and then kill her in the bathtub at the Howard Johnson are the headlines going to read "former high school basketball player fucks and then kills a hooker?"

[Bob]

Also, I'd like to know Racial Jesus's opinion on the fact that the victim was here ILLEGALLY.

Maybe these young lads were just trying to apprehend a fugitive from justice and had to employ extreme measures to prevent the criminal from escaping?



And as a resident and taxpayer of the great state of Pennsylvania, I'm curious how the ILLEGAL criminal's medical bills are going to be paid?
Who exactly is going to be paying for this guy's skull to be removed? Sounds pricey to me...Don't look at the taxpayer is all I'm saying, because our state is already in enough of a financial mess.
Somebody grab that relative they interviewed on the news, and check his greencard while we're at it.

can't tell if you're being serious or not, help

[yeahwho]

To make the case about race, citizenship, age or football is to pull away from the root of the problem which is gratuitous violence to the point of death.

The perpetuation of race being the motive is not a solution nor a reasonable way to search for a solution. It's almost as if it is having the opposite effect, by God it's 2009... this is a man beaten to death and it is unacceptable, there is no good reason or rationale.

[yeahwho]

can't tell if you're being serious or not, help

Bob, we are at war with Mexico, obviously this fellow was part of the Mexican army.

[yeahwho]

S
First, it was the "ALL-WHITE JURY" who let the "HS Football Stars" get away with murder, now you're posting links that show a witness blaming the Prosecution for not trying a good enough case?

Are you angry with everyone who's white that is related with this case?



That link is to a witness, not a whiteness.

[kaiser soze]

Sounds like robmoney needs a good teabagging

Hmmm, Racial Jesus has a nice tone considering I do not believe Jesus is as white as most people like to paint him out to be.

I don't care if the man was here illegally, he was killed.....blame the murderer for putting this guys medical tab on your taxes. (oh and blame border patrol for wasting your tax dollars as well).

By the way how much will it cost you? You surely know seeing you're so concerned.

Don't attack me for the news stories, the headlines and the interviews...I just post em here to see what kind of reaction I can illicit from you

Write the journalists, write the editors, write the news, write the affiliates, write the whatever.

have a nice day

[YoungRemy]

I just saw this episode on Law & Order the other night.

except they took the immigrant off life support so they could charge the kids with murder.

[saz]

Also, I'd like to know Racial Jesus's opinion on the fact that the victim was here ILLEGALLY.

Maybe these young lads were just trying to apprehend a fugitive from justice and had to employ extreme measures to prevent the criminal from escaping?



And as a resident and taxpayer of the great state of Pennsylvania, I'm curious how the ILLEGAL criminal's medical bills are going to be paid?
Who exactly is going to be paying for this guy's skull to be removed? Sounds pricey to me...Don't look at the taxpayer is all I'm saying, because our state is already in enough of a financial mess.
Somebody grab that relative they interviewed on the news, and check his greencard while we're at it.

no rob, these "young lads" weren't trying to apprehend "a fugitive from justice". they were bunch of young punk jocks who beat a man to death, plain and simple. no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

i find it pretty disturbing that you're more concerned with taxes (meanwhile iraq is costing you three trillion) as opposed to a brutal homicide. sure, the victim, luis ramirez, was an illegal immigrant. but that by no means, in any way, shape or manner justifies brutally murdering him.

[RobMoney$]

You know, I'm no lawyer but I'm pretty sure you're legally permitted to use deadly force if someone illegally enters your property.

Why is this any different? He illegally entered the United States of America.

[saz]

so, according to your logic, all illegal immigrants should be beaten to death?

[RobMoney$]

no rob, these "young lads" weren't trying to apprehend "a fugitive from justice". they were bunch of young punk jocks who beat a man to death, plain and simple. no ifs, ands, or buts about it.


I find it pretty sad that you choose to label someone and reduce them to being "punk jocks" without knowing very much about them.

Just wondering, but was there anything said about what may have started the fight? I'm sure the ILLEGAL was just wandering down the street on his way to church, or perhaps to the home for the elderly to volunteer when he was accosted by these "punk jocks" for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

[RobMoney$]

so, according to your logic, all illegal immigrants should be beaten to death?


I think they should be tied up to a pole in the town square and stoned to death.

[Whatitis]

You know, I'm no lawyer but I'm pretty sure you're legally permitted to use deadly force if someone illegally enters your property.

Why is this any different? He illegally entered the United States of America.
That's shitty logic.

Not even logical.

[RobMoney$]

I also find it sad that soo many supposedly educated people can't see through a sensationalized story.

From the "All White Jury" comment to the "Popular HS Football players" comment, this is a horrible display of journalism.
The reporter OBVIOUSLY was blinded by their own personal POV. and let that get in the way of doing their job, which was to just report the facts.

If the prosecution lead off by reading that piece, he would have been interupted by the defense within two seconds by an objection of leading the jury.

[RobMoney$]

That's shitty logic.

Not even logical.


Care to expand on why?

[saz]

I find it pretty sad that you choose to label someone and reduce them to being "punk jocks" without knowing very much about them.

Just wondering, but was there anything said about what may have started the fight? I'm sure the ILLEGAL was just wandering down the street on his way to church, or perhaps to the home for the elderly to volunteer when he was accosted by these "punk jocks" for absolutely no reason whatsoever.


Luis Ramirez Killers Found Not Guilty After Beating Mexican Immigrant To Death

Michael Rubinkam l May 2, 2009 07:21 PM EST l Associated Press


The fight began late July 12 when a half-dozen teens, all Shenandoah residents who played football at Shenandoah Valley High School, were walking home from a block party and came across Ramirez and his 15-year-old girlfriend in a park.

Brian Scully, 18, asked the girl, "Isn't it a little late for you to be out?" That enraged Ramirez, who began yelling in Spanish and dialing friends on his cell phone. Scully admitted shouting ethnic slurs. The verbal sparring soon turned into a physical altercation as Ramirez and Piekarsky traded blows, though prosecutors and defense attorneys disputed who threw the first punch.

Donchak then entered the fray and wound up on top of Ramirez. Prosecutors said he pummeled Ramirez, holding a small piece of metal in his fist to give his punches more power. Defense attorneys said Donchak tried to break up the fight between Piekarsky and Ramirez and denied he had a weapon.

The two sides eventually went their separate ways. But Scully kept yelling at Ramirez, leading the immigrant to charge after the group.

Colin Walsh, 17, then hit Ramirez, knocking him out.

"Does Mr. Ramirez fit the description of an innocent soul who just happened to get picked on by a group of kids?" Piekarsky defense attorney Fred Fanelli asked jurors in closing arguments. "He's the only adult, and he makes some bad choices."

Fanelli accused prosecutors of ignoring exculpatory evidence, including statements by two of Ramirez's friends shortly after the fight that the kicker wore white sneakers - the color Scully was wearing.


link (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/04/luis-ramirez-killers-foun_n_195535.html)


I think they should be tied up to a pole in the town square and stoned to death.

that's disgusting and despicable, but whatever (http://www.pulsetc.com/image/2004/0225/duluth-lynching.jpg) floats your boat (http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070205/070205_neonazi_hmed_3p.hmedium.jpg).

[kaiser soze]

I find it pretty sad that you choose to label someone and reduce them to being "punk jocks" without knowing very much about them.

I guess "campus fuckface" is a term of endearment then?

*high five!*

:rolleyes:

[Bob]

still holding out hope that you're not serious, rob

for example:

Care to expand on why?

do you really need somebody to explain to you why it shouldn't be legal to kill illegal immigrants on sight, or are you just saying that to rile the campus fuckfaces? i wouldn't know where to start...

[Documad]

Luis Ramirez Killers Found Not Guilty After Beating Mexican Immigrant To Death

Michael Rubinkam l May 2, 2009 07:21 PM EST l Associated Press


The fight began late July 12 when a half-dozen teens, all Shenandoah residents who played football at Shenandoah Valley High School, were walking home from a block party and came across Ramirez and his 15-year-old girlfriend in a park.

Brian Scully, 18, asked the girl, "Isn't it a little late for you to be out?" That enraged Ramirez, who began yelling in Spanish and dialing friends on his cell phone. Scully admitted shouting ethnic slurs. The verbal sparring soon turned into a physical altercation as Ramirez and Piekarsky traded blows, though prosecutors and defense attorneys disputed who threw the first punch.

Donchak then entered the fray and wound up on top of Ramirez. Prosecutors said he pummeled Ramirez, holding a small piece of metal in his fist to give his punches more power. Defense attorneys said Donchak tried to break up the fight between Piekarsky and Ramirez and denied he had a weapon.

The two sides eventually went their separate ways. But Scully kept yelling at Ramirez, leading the immigrant to charge after the group.

Colin Walsh, 17, then hit Ramirez, knocking him out.

"Does Mr. Ramirez fit the description of an innocent soul who just happened to get picked on by a group of kids?" Piekarsky defense attorney Fred Fanelli asked jurors in closing arguments. "He's the only adult, and he makes some bad choices."

Fanelli accused prosecutors of ignoring exculpatory evidence, including statements by two of Ramirez's friends shortly after the fight that the kicker wore white sneakers - the color Scully was wearing.



So Scully was the guy who testified against the two guys who were acquitted, right? And Walsh is the juvenile who wasn't tried yet and wasn't a defendant in this case, right? That article makes it pretty clear that the defense attorneys did a good job and it makes the jury verdict sound appropriate.

Also, that account has the fight over, with just words being exchanged when the victim charges back at the group of teenagers and starts the physical part of the fight up again.

I'm not saying the guy deserved to die. He certainly did not deserve to die. I'm just saying that young guys do dumb shit sometimes and everyone should have exercised better judgment. The jury could find reasonable doubt regarding who was at fault and could think it's fair to give the guys a felony assault conviction, but not a murder conviction.

Also, I have to believe that Rob is just trying to start something with you guys. No way does he really believe that illegal aliens deserve to be beaten by vigilantes. And anyhow, there's no evidence that the illegal status of the guy had anything to do with it. Sounds like it was just too many young male hormones in one place and a lot of bad judgment from all of the participants.

[Documad]

So I take it this means that there is no evidence that either of the acquitted defendants admitted to kicking the guy in the head when he was down? That was incorrect when KS said it many posts ago?

Seriously, I hate the fucking media.

[saz]

Also, I have to believe that Rob is just trying to start something with you guys. No way does he really believe that illegal aliens deserve to be beaten by vigilantes.

yeah, keep telling (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=89316) yourself that (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=1625406&postcount=229).


And anyhow, there's no evidence that the illegal status of the guy had anything to do with it.

Scully admitted shouting ethnic slurs.

[Knuckles]

Once again Documad is spot on.

I find it sad that people are trying to make this into some type of race issue when it clearly is not.

[saz]

Scully admitted shouting ethnic slurs.

yeah, race had nothing to do with it.

[Knuckles]

yeah, race had nothing to do with it.

I believe the article clearly states that what started the whole incident was the comments the young men made about the fifteen year old he was "dating". It wasn't until after the first scuffle that the racial slurs were thrown about.

This was just about as much to do with race as when I was a young man (21 I believe) and got into a fight with three Mexicans who thought it might be funny to throw rocks at passing cars. I was a young testosterone filled idiot and decide to pull over and fight them. I'm pretty sure the word "honky" was used right before I knocked the first guy out. Does this mean it had anything to do with race? No. It was just some young, dumb men who lost their tempers. Unfortunately in this instance someone lost their life as well.

[RobMoney$]

I guess "campus fuckface" is a term of endearment then?

*high five!*

:rolleyes:

Yeah, but I see enough of your "Fight the Power, Kill Whitey" threads to know that's what you are.

[RobMoney$]

still holding out hope that you're not serious, rob

for example:


Sarcasm is most effective when the target IS NOT aware of it.

[RobMoney$]

that's disgusting and despicable, but whatever (http://www.pulsetc.com/image/2004/0225/duluth-lynching.jpg) floats your boat (http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070205/070205_neonazi_hmed_3p.hmedium.jpg).

hahahaaa.
Aren't you just so outraged and offended.
Care to explain what the lynch mob hanging of the black guys have to do with illegal immigrants?

Or were you just going for shock value there?

[RobMoney$]

Ok, I'll come clean.

I making outrageously ridiculous statements because this thread is outrageously ridiculous.
Only some people aren't doing it on purpose, like me.

Sazi's making comparisons to lynch mob hangings and I think Kaiser may have shed a tear or two at some point.

This is simply what Knuckles said, a bunch of teenagers fighting that went way to far.
A situation many teens, including most of us posting here have found themselves in at that age.

[Documad]

Sazi, I wasn't denying that race was an element of the fight. Clearly racial slurs were thrown around (primarily by the prosecution's witness rather than the defendants unfortunately). I said that we don't know whether the white guys knew he was in the country illegally. You can be Hispanic and be a US citizen you know. :rolleyes:

[Bob]

Ok, I'll come clean.

I making outrageously ridiculous statements because this thread is outrageously ridiculous.
Only some people aren't doing it on purpose, like me.

phew

[kaiser soze]

Yeah, but I see enough of your "Fight the Power, Kill Whitey" threads to know that's what you are.

:rolleyes:

no need to say anything to this weak sauce

Ok, I'll come clean.

I making outrageously ridiculous statements because this thread is outrageously ridiculous.
Only some people aren't doing it on purpose, like me.

Sazi's making comparisons to lynch mob hangings and I think Kaiser may have shed a tear or two at some point.

This is simply what Knuckles said, a bunch of teenagers fighting that went way to far.
A situation many teens, including most of us posting here have found themselves in at that age.

Well there is no need to respond to ridiculous threads rob. Nobody is grabbing you by your neck and shoving your nose into this or any other thread. I notice your tone was not so "silly" at the beginning and this thread has actually generated a substantial amount of debate/arguments. We don't need you prancing around in your tutu yelling look at me! If you think it is silly go someplace more serious for your taste and let us "children" or "campus fuckfaces" if you prefer figure shit out.

[RobMoney$]

What it's generating is a bunch of people telling you how out of line it is that "white vs. hispanic" is being used to sensationalize this story for the purpose of selling it and illiciting a response from bleeding hearts such as yourself.

[King PSYZ]

What it's generating is a bunch of people telling you how out of line it is that "white vs. hispanic" is being used to sensationalize this story for the purpose of selling it and illiciting a response from bleeding hearts such as yourself.

You do at some base level realise of course it did start because some more than likely privlaged (or at least in the sense of small town HS Football players IE: Friday Night Lights, Varisty Blues, etc) white kids going after someone based on their race which resulted in the death of someone.

Should the older guy have walked away? Yeah. Should the kids have kept their mouths shut? Hell yes. Should someone have died that night or should teenagers have the capacity to kill and have to carry that on for the rest of their lives? FUCK NO.

[Knuckles]

You do at some base level realise of course it did start because some more than likely privlaged (or at least in the sense of small town HS Football players IE: Friday Night Lights, Varisty Blues, etc) white kids going after someone based on their race which resulted in the death of someone.



I really don't see that they started this because of race. They made a comment about his waaaaaaaay too young for him girlfriend. Maybe they were prejudice against pedophiles?

[RobMoney$]

Did you read what sazi posted?
According to the report, the white kids aren't even the ones who started the fight. They commented to the ILLEGAL'S 15 YO GIRLFRIEND (yes, I said 15) that it was a little late for her to be out, and the ILLEGAL flipped out and started getting aggressive towards them.

What does the fact that they played football for their HS have to do with that? Comparing them to Varsity Blues or Friday Night Lights just proves that you too have been sucked in to the generalizations of the way this story is being reported.
I mean do you really believe ALL of the millions of kids who play HS football in this country are treated like some superstar, or like they were in the two films you mentioned? Believe me, most of the time it's not that big a deal.

[kaiser soze]

I thought you were being ridiculous about this?

[RobMoney$]

Apparently it was too confusing for some.




But the Varsity Blues, Friday Night Lights reference was yet another display of ridiculousness, so maybe I'll go back?

[saz]

I believe the article clearly states that what started the whole incident was the comments the young men made about the fifteen year old he was "dating". It wasn't until after the first scuffle that the racial slurs were thrown about.

true. however when racial slurs are hurled, sorry, race becomes an issue.


This was just about as much to do with race as when I was a young man (21 I believe) and got into a fight with three Mexicans who thought it might be funny to throw rocks at passing cars. I was a young testosterone filled idiot and decide to pull over and fight them. I'm pretty sure the word "honky" was used right before I knocked the first guy out. Does this mean it had anything to do with race? No. It was just some young, dumb men who lost their tempers. Unfortunately in this instance someone lost their life as well.

yes, it does have to do with race. it became an issue or element in your experience. the guy used a racial slur. this would be like me attempting to argue that if just before i got into a fight with black guy, i referred to him as the n-word, but then tried explaining that race had nothing to do with the fight, even if the fight started over something else. race would've become a factor, just like what happened with yourself and with luis ramirez.


Sarcasm is most effective when the target IS NOT aware of it.

hahahaaa.
Aren't you just so outraged and offended.
Care to explain what the lynch mob hanging of the black guys have to do with illegal immigrants?

Or were you just going for shock value there?

the ol' sarcasm defence is an easy cop-out. i took into consideration that you may have been joking, however considering your disdain for obama supporters (which doesn't include myself) and other previous comments, it wasn't that much of a stretch to consider that perhaps you were being serious about "I think they should be tied up to a pole in the town square and stoned to death", hence the lynching pic.


This is simply what Knuckles said, a bunch of teenagers fighting that went way to far.

yeah and a dude got beaten to death, and the perpetrators are getting off with what looks like a slap on the wrist.

You can be Hispanic and be a US citizen you know. :rolleyes:

oh really? i wasn't aware of that. thanks for informing me. :rolleyes:

[Documad]

oh really? i wasn't aware of that. thanks for informing me. :rolleyes:
It apparently slipped your mind in your post No. 60.

[King PSYZ]

Apparently it was too confusing for some.




But the Varsity Blues, Friday Night Lights reference was yet another display of ridiculousness, so maybe I'll go back?

jesus... what's the weather like in your world?

how is that ridiculous? you do realise in many small towns football players are treated like minor celebrities, right?

and honestly, once you start calling after someone goading them into a fight it very much becomes an issue of race, but you and knucks keep wanting to gloss over that.

don't lump me in with any group though, I avoided this thread up til now for a reason. but it's obvious you missed the gist of my post and glomed on to something you thought you could pick apart without any real argument other than 'really?'

these boys might not be card carying klan members, but they did kill a man, intentionally or not isn't at hand anymore since the jury made their decision.

and in the death of this man it seems to have stirred up some very real racial tensions there. none of us discussing this matter are from this small town as far as I can see, so saying it's a racist town, or the kids got off because of racism is retarded.

regardless, they still goaded the guy with racial slurs and it got the better of the guy and it cost him his life. was he a model human being? far from it from the looks of things. but that gives ZERO right for a group of high schoolers from beating him up and killing him.

if the cops aren't doing the job in this town, that should be the national story, not some kids that have to live with knowing they had a hand in taking someone's life. they might feel vindicated now, but ask them in 10 years how many times they woke up in a cold sweat thinking about that night.

[King PSYZ]

I really don't see that they started this because of race. They made a comment about his waaaaaaaay too young for him girlfriend. Maybe they were prejudice against pedophiles?

AGAIN, one it's been mentioned even in court by these kids that they hurled racial remarks at the victim and he reacted poorly and he died for it.

But even still, what right do these kids have to walk up to anyone and start shit? Being that they were drunk (illegally I might add since everyone is pointing out the dead guys crimes) they were likely looking for trouble as young people who aren't accustomed to holding their liquor or impulses are want to do.

[funk63]

Why don't you make a thread about all the Americans that are killed by illegal aliens. In 2006 illegal aliens killed 12 Americans DAILY! (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103) Thats more than the Iraq war, thats more than fucking 9-11!!!
I can't exactly put this eloquently, so I'll just say this, wake the fuck up and shut the fuck up about this bullshit. You self-deprecating fucks sicken me.
Seriously? How the fuck can you look at the statistics and make fucking threads like this? Do you hate yourself that much? Do you bat a fucking eye when people who are here ILLEGALLY kill Americans? Makes me fucking sick.

[Dorothy Wood]

I'm voting for documad for mayor of sensible city!



there's a lot of craziness in this thread. I think a lot of people are making a lot of assumptions.

I think it's wrong to exploit racial tension, but I think that tempers really are flaring about illegal immigrants more and more because of the poor economy and lack of jobs. so it's an important topic to discuss, or pay attention to I guess.

I honestly think this story is less about race and more about dumb drunk kids. the point is that a man died. killing a man is wrong, accidental or not. there should be consequences.

[funk63]

I think it's wrong to exploit racial tension, but I think that tempers really are flaring about illegal immigrants more and more because of the poor economy and lack of jobs. so it's an important topic to discuss, or pay attention to I guess.


Or the death toll at the hands of illegal aliens being higher than the entire Iraq war??????

[Dorothy Wood]

Why don't you make a thread about all the Americans that are killed by illegal aliens. In 2006 illegal aliens killed 12 Americans DAILY! (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103) Thats more than the Iraq war, thats more than fucking 9-11!!!
I can't exactly put this eloquently, so I'll just say this, wake the fuck up and shut the fuck up about this bullshit. You self-deprecating fucks sicken me.
Seriously? How the fuck can you look at the statistics and make fucking threads like this? Do you hate yourself that much? Do you bat a fucking eye when people who are here ILLEGALLY kill Americans? Makes me fucking sick.

hey now, there are some awfully flimsy "statistics" in that article.

you ever think about how many americans kill other americans? because that's a whole hell of a lot more.

people kill each other sometimes for different reasons, it doesn't matter if they were born here or filled out paperwork or hopped a fence.

[funk63]

hey now, there are some awfully flimsy "statistics" in that article.

you ever think about how many americans kill other americans? because that's a whole hell of a lot more.

people kill each other sometimes for different reasons, it doesn't matter if they were born here or filled out paperwork or hopped a fence.

Who's doing the killing? Should I link you murder rates based on race?
More illegals kill whites than whites kill illegals, more mexicans kill whites than whites kill mexicans, legal or not, by a LONG shot.

[Dorothy Wood]

Who's doing the killing? Should I link you murder rates based on race?
More illegals kill whites than whites kill illegals, more mexicans kill whites than whites kill mexicans, legal or not.


according to the FBI there were 15,972 murders reported in 2006. that's about 44 a day. so based on the 12 committed by illegal immigrants, the 32 left are committed by americans.

I think you're being an alarmist. but yeah, go ahead and link me. they better be reputable sites though.

[funk63]

according to the FBI there were 15,972 murders reported in 2006. that's about 44 a day. so based on the 12 committed by illegal immigrants, the 32 left are committed by americans.

I think you're being an alarmist. but yeah, go ahead and link me. they better be reputable sites though.

Or else what? And what the fuck is an alarmist?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/47561/The-Color-Of-Crime
Race, Crime and Justice in America
The Color
of
Crime
New Century Foundation
Oakton, VA 22124

Second, Expanded Edition
Major Findings
• Police and the justice system are not biased against minorities.
Crime Rates
• Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder,
and eight times more likely to commit robbery.
• When blacks commit crimes of violence, they are nearly three times more likely
than non-blacks to use a gun, and more than twice as likely to use a knife.
• Hispanics commit violent crimes at roughly three times the white rate, and
Asians commit violent crimes at about one quarter the white rate.
• The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of
the population that is black and Hispanic.
Interracial Crime
• Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving
blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent.
• Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Fortyfive
percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are
Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are
black.
• Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against
a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.
• Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes
against whites than vice versa.
Gangs
• Only 10 percent of youth gang members are white.
• Hispanics are 19 times more likely than whites to be members of youth gangs.
Blacks are 15 times more likely, and Asians are nine times more likely.
Incarceration
• Between 1980 and 2003 the US incarceration rate more than tripled, from 139
to 482 per 100,000, and the number of prisoners increased from 320,000 to 1.39
million.
• Blacks are seven times more likely to be in prison than whites. Hispanics are
three times more likely.
You can also find that shit on the Justice Department sites if that doesn't do it for you.

[Fern]

I believe the article clearly states that what started the whole incident was the comments the young men made about the fifteen year old he was "dating". It wasn't until after the first scuffle that the racial slurs were thrown about.

This was just about as much to do with race as when I was a young man (21 I believe) and got into a fight with three Mexicans who thought it might be funny to throw rocks at passing cars. I was a young testosterone filled idiot and decide to pull over and fight them. I'm pretty sure the word "honky" was used right before I knocked the first guy out. Does this mean it had anything to do with race? No. It was just some young, dumb men who lost their tempers. Unfortunately in this instance someone lost their life as well.

The first words out of my mouth are racial when I am getting ready to fight someone. To me it is the same as calling someone fat or ugly.

[Schmeltz]

What exactly is your point here, funk63? You're no longer talking about the topic of the thread, and you're not even talking about illegal aliens anymore. It sounds like you've been reduced to parroting more of the tired old extreme right-wing peddling of crime statistics in an attempt to demonize entire subsets of the population. In which case you're not being an alarmist, you're being a moron.

Fern, as usual, isn't worth even a passing comment.

[kaiser soze]

Why don't you make a thread about all the Americans that are killed by illegal aliens. In 2006 illegal aliens killed 12 Americans DAILY! (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103) Thats more than the Iraq war, thats more than fucking 9-11!!!
I can't exactly put this eloquently, so I'll just say this, wake the fuck up and shut the fuck up about this bullshit. You self-deprecating fucks sicken me.
Seriously? How the fuck can you look at the statistics and make fucking threads like this? Do you hate yourself that much? Do you bat a fucking eye when people who are here ILLEGALLY kill Americans? Makes me fucking sick.

Why don't you start a thread about Americans being killed by illegal aliens. If it is something that concerns you, please do it.

I don't think you know the meaning of Self-deprecating - nobody is undervaluing themselves or pointing out their shortcomings ( are you referring to the people who are trying to belittle me? )

Anyways, yes people die (or become non-incidents according to you) and I don't see any reason why people cannot post about things like this. I pick up stories I find unique and challenge our values/morals (ie: police brutality, troop abuse of detainees, political scandals, guns, race, religion, and what might appear as injustice). These are themes people are very divided on, even around here.

[Documad]

You can also find that shit on the Justice Department sites if that doesn't do it for you.

Then cite a justice department report instead of a white supremacist group's website.

I like enforcing the law and I want to sort out the immigration system, but I would also like to point out that about 11 million illegal immigrants are not murdering anyone.

[kaiser soze]

DOJ to investigate and a juror speaks

http://www.wnep.com/wnep-schuyl-jurors-argue-deliberation-6-link,0,4439656.worldnowvideo

[Documad]

The DOJ has to investigate because of the media attention. That means the DOJ is taking time away from other ongoing investigations. I hope it's worth it. I haven't heard one single concrete piece of information indicating that the system didn't work here. We don't have a member of the jury saying that other jurors voted based on race. We don't have evidence that the defense did anything unethical. It's all just guesswork. You said that one of the guys who was acquitted had confessed to kicking the guy in the head when he was down and got off anyhow. Apparently that wasn't true.

Did you watch the juror interview? The juror seemed like a reasonable guy. He didn't look like a reactionary thug. He seemed to take his duties seriously. He said the case was full of holes. Isn't he the opposite of what you expected?

He sat in the courtroom and heard all of the evidence that he's supposed to consider. But you're so sure that you know better having read some articles. It's awfully unfair to call him a racist. It is also dangerous because the next jury picked in that county is going to know that if they vote based on the evidence instead of based upon what some people in the community want they're going to be crucified in the national media. What decent person would want to sit on a jury in a high profile case going forward? I don't want american jurors to worry about media reaction when they're sitting on a murder case.

I don't care about this case at all. I'm just pissed off by the sloppiness of the media and I hate it when private citizens like that juror are persecuted by the media.

[saz]

According to the report, the white kids aren't even the ones who started the fight. They commented to the ILLEGAL'S 15 YO GIRLFRIEND (yes, I said 15) that it was a little late for her to be out, and the ILLEGAL flipped out and started getting aggressive towards them.


i completely agree, however i believe in the rule of law. luis ramirez sounds like a bonafide lowlife sex offender, not to mention he was in the us illegally. i don't like sex offenders in our society no more than the next guy, but neither do i like those who beat a man to death.


these boys might not be card carying klan members, but they did kill a man, intentionally or not isn't at hand anymore since the jury made their decision.

and in the death of this man it seems to have stirred up some very real racial tensions there. none of us discussing this matter are from this small town as far as I can see, so saying it's a racist town, or the kids got off because of racism is retarded.

regardless, they still goaded the guy with racial slurs and it got the better of the guy and it cost him his life. was he a model human being? far from it from the looks of things. but that gives ZERO right for a group of high schoolers from beating him up and killing him.

spot on.

[Knuckles]

I'm just pissed off by the sloppiness of the media and I hate it when private citizens like that juror are persecuted by the media.

YES

[kaiser soze]

The DOJ has to investigate because of the media attention. That means the DOJ is taking time away from other ongoing investigations. I hope it's worth it. I haven't heard one single concrete piece of information indicating that the system didn't work here. We don't have a member of the jury saying that other jurors voted based on race. We don't have evidence that the defense did anything unethical. It's all just guesswork. You said that one of the guys who was acquitted had confessed to kicking the guy in the head when he was down and got off anyhow. Apparently that wasn't true.

Did you watch the juror interview? The juror seemed like a reasonable guy. He didn't look like a reactionary thug. He seemed to take his duties seriously. He said the case was full of holes. Isn't he the opposite of what you expected?

He sat in the courtroom and heard all of the evidence that he's supposed to consider. But you're so sure that you know better having read some articles. It's awfully unfair to call him a racist. It is also dangerous because the next jury picked in that county is going to know that if they vote based on the evidence instead of based upon what some people in the community want they're going to be crucified in the national media. What decent person would want to sit on a jury in a high profile case going forward? I don't want american jurors to worry about media reaction when they're sitting on a murder case.

I don't care about this case at all. I'm just pissed off by the sloppiness of the media and I hate it when private citizens like that juror are persecuted by the media.

Now I understand that you might assume I don't agree with the juror or even think he is a racist, but I have never called any of the jurors, the judge, nor the defense racist. I felt that his response was legit. I really haven't called for the lynching of this jury, I was just putting up what the media put up - Do I believe this case is a mess, absolutely. I would also champion a conviction for Ramirez as a pedophile, but oddly it appears his relationship with a 15 year was never questioned - quite possibly she might be an overlooked piece of the puzzle in this case ( considering her being accosted by the teens apparently started this )

I do believe that there was a murder and justice was not served

[Dorothy Wood]

Or else what? And what the fuck is an alarmist?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/47561/The-Color-Of-Crime

You can also find that shit on the Justice Department sites if that doesn't do it for you.


Or else I will tear your argument to shreds with factual information!

a·larm·ist
n. A person who needlessly alarms or attempts to alarm others, as by inventing or spreading false or exaggerated rumors of impending danger or catastrophe.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Also,
The New Century Foundation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Century_Foundation) is a White Nationalist organization. (white nationalism) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nationalism)

You're native american, right? the NCF probably hates you too. and don't tell them you're gay.

I don't mean to brings these things up to taunt you, I'm just surprised that you would be sucked in by extremist literature that inflates figures to suit their own theories of white supremacy. because these are the very same people that would seek to persecute you in a heartbeat.

immigration is a complex issue, there's no use getting upset that other people are upset about a mexican immigrant being beat to death. the point is, beating people to death is wrong.

granted, I have a certain amount of white guilt myself, but mostly because I'm a direct descendant of spanish conquistadors. those smallpox ridden bastards were responsible for the destructions of millions of lives. the rest of me is Finnish, but in the early 1900's those cats moved to the upper pennisula of michigan where nobody really wanted to live anyway.

ANYWAY, it sucks that people move here illegally, but they come here to find a better life, not to terrorize the americans who already live here.

[funk63]

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm)

[kaiser soze]

Not sure if you knew this, but the defendants in this case are white

The charts seem to show that offenders and victims of homicide are exceptionally black, so this would lead me to believe that the majority of the crimes were perpetrated within the race (94%) and 86% for white on white crime. The percentile of homicide is pretty darn even, considering the highest percentage total above 50% (10) for white compared to black (4) goes but yet the higher total goes to black offenders. I'm not great with stats but maybe someone can straighten that out.

[RobMoney$]

ANYWAY, it sucks that people move here illegally, but they come here to find a better life, not to terrorize the americans who already live here.


...and some could care less about the Americans who already live here. Some think and act as if we owe them something and they should be catered to.
They come to our country and think they'll do as they please, like start some mini Iran, or spread some fucking disease.

[kaiser soze]

You must have some blame for the people hiring the illegal immigrants for cheap labor. For most it is more to offer than what's in Mexico.

[Documad]

Not sure if you knew this, but the defendants in this case are white

The charts seem to show that offenders and victims of homicide are exceptionally black, so this would lead me to believe that the majority of the crimes were perpetrated within the race (94%) and 86% for white on white crime. The percentile of homicide is pretty darn even, considering the highest percentage total above 50% (10) for white compared to black (4) goes but yet the higher total goes to black offenders. I'm not great with stats but maybe someone can straighten that out.

You've got the gist of it. The DOJ statistics don't back up the white supremacist talking points.

Most people kill their own. If you're a white woman, you're way more likely to be killed by your white spouse than by a black stranger, unless you're involved in a high risk occupation like dealing drugs.

[Bob]

You've got the gist of it. The DOJ statistics don't back up the white supremacist talking points.

Most people kill their own. If you're a white woman, you're way more likely to be killed by your white spouse than by a black stranger, unless you're involved in a high risk occupation like dealing drugs.

but things were so much simpler and more convenient when i was blaming immigrants and minorities

[RobMoney$]

...ain't it the truth!

[Dorothy Wood]

...and some could care less about the Americans who already live here. Some think and act as if we owe them something and they should be catered to.
They come to our country and think they'll do as they please, like start some mini Iran, or spread some fucking disease.


umm, where are you getting this information?

you realize that plenty of americans couldn't care less about other americans and act like the world owes them something.

I really do not believe that the intention of immigrants is to take over america. they come here and get hired to do jobs that most americans won't do. that's a fact. and it's the businesses that hire illegals and pay under the table that have created such a flood of illegal immigration. if there was no work to be had, nobody would come here.


frankly, I think that america was built on the backs of minorities. white americans (who were the orginal illegal immigrants) have been exploiting people they consider "less than" for hundreds of years. and now it's coming back to bite everyone in the ass. everyone's all, "oh no, mexicans are taking over, I can't get a job, wahhh". but hello, that's capitalism, that's dog eat dog right there. the people who are willing to do the dirty work for considerably less money are the ones who are winning (i.e., creating better lives for themselves and procreating at higher rates to boot) it's dead on free market shit. it's just that the people winning aren't white and that's scary as shit for some people.

I really don't care of mexicans take over. if that's the way it's gonna go down, that's the way it's gonna go down. I have no allegiance to the white race and I am in no way concerned with its proliferation. my only allegiance is to the human race. that might sound like hippie bullshit, but it's how I feel.

[tpk]

robmoney stop fuckin around. i've only read a few of your comments here but that was enough to close this thread and address you personally. if you keep your racist bullshit going we will have to ban you (again). whether or not you're just fuckin around kidding or whatever, it doesn't matter cause some shit comin from you just ain't funny how ever you put it. congratulations on making me lock a thread you didn't even start.