The Difference

[NoFenders]

From what I've seen, heard, read, and been shown, it seems to me there's one key difference in the liberal way of thought and the the conservative.

The liberals always think there's some simple solution to just about every problem. Like when you say to a Dr, my arm hurts when I do this and he says, well then don't do that.

The conservatives realise there's no easy answers just trade offs. Yes, you can give everyone free healthcare, free housing, free lunch whatever, but what's the trade off? Is it worth it in the long run?

I can't say one is better than the other, but I do see that single difference in every political argument I've ever seen.

I happen to think there's never some quick easy solution to problems. I think there's only trade offs. When you assume you have an easy solution to big a problem (Like most political twats in DC assume) you'll solve that part of it, but create unintended consiquences further down the road. It's been that way forever.

Just sayin........


Neva, put tooth picks, in yo pocket

[Bob]

i think i tend to hear conservatives describe things as "plain and simple" more often than liberals (including you (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/search.php?searchid=931981)). if conservatives are such big-picture folk, why'd they prop up guys like saddam hussein and the taliban? because they were better than the soviets, or better than a chaotic middle east or whatever reasoning they used. plain and simple.

overall, though, i don't think that the tendency to gloss over the complexity of political issues is unique to either conservatives or liberals, everyone does it

[Schmeltz]

About five bank accounts, three ounces, and two vehicles.

The liberals always think there's some simple solution to just about every problem. Like when you say to a Dr, my arm hurts when I do this and he says, well then don't do that.

I do see that single difference in every political argument I've ever seen.


Do you think you could provide some examples of that trend as witnessed here? Because I really do not see where you're coming from at all with this. If anything it seems to me as though the liberal members on this board, like saz and Droppin, tend to support their positions much more strongly than conservatives like valvano and Robmoney who typically come up with insubstantial info that doesn't even make the point they think it does.

Moreover I seem to recall that you are a fervent supporter of the Iraq War and base your position mostly on the premise that "it's better to fight them over there than over here," which I would call extremely simplistic and totally ignorant of the possibility of unintended consequences. In fact in this thread (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=85255&highlight=war&page=2) you compared international terrorism to ants at a picnic and explicitly expressed your pride in not reading about the war or looking at statistics related to it. Not much in there about tradeoffs or consequences.

[RobMoney$]

nvrmnd

[yeahwho]

Do you think you could provide some examples of that trend as witnessed here? Because I really do not see where you're coming from at all with this.

What are you missing here Schmeltz



The liberals always think there's some simple solution to just about every problem. Like when you say to a Dr, my arm hurts when I do this and he says, well then don't do that.

The conservatives realise there's no easy answers just trade offs. Yes, you can give everyone free healthcare, free housing, free lunch whatever, but what's the trade off? Is it worth it in the long run?



liberals have sore arms and conservatives think you should be making some sort of payment to get it checked out during your lunch hour from the job that pays the mortgage.
I think

[Documad]

What are you missing here Schmeltz



liberals have sore arms and conservatives think you should be making some sort of payment to get it checked out during your lunch hour from the job that pays the mortgage.
I think

Yeah, near as I can tell from the nonsensical first post, "liberals" are people who think that you have some responsibility for the bad things in your life and "conservatives" want to blame someone else.

These labels are meaningless. There was little that was "conservative" about George W. Bush (except the religious stuff perhaps) and there is little that is "liberal" about Obama.

[NoFenders]

LMAO typical.....all of you. lol

[DroppinScience]

LMAO typical.....all of you. lol

What a nuanced, "big picture" and not at all simplistic response. You sure showed us!

[Schmeltz]

LMAO typical.....all of you. lol

Wow, how substantial. Seriously though, if this difference has played such a major role in every single political debate you've ever seen this board must be chock-full of examples of it. Can you not come up with one or two to prove your point? Or were you just talking out your ass all along?

[NoFenders]

I guess you really are all that stupid.

Have fun in message board land people.

No more time for kiddie games.

Enjoy cyber life!

:cool:

[Bob]

plain and simple

[kaiser soze]

that sounds like an excellent trade off

nofenders leaves and then we get to enjoy cyber life :)

how simply wonderful

[RobMoney$]

Do you think you could provide some examples of that trend as witnessed here? Because I really do not see where you're coming from at all with this. If anything it seems to me as though the liberal members on this board, like saz and Droppin, tend to support their positions much more strongly than conservatives like valvano and Robmoney who typically come up with insubstantial info that doesn't even make the point they think it does.


So I make a thread citing all sorts of data and "substantial info" that suggests the number of people losing faith in Obama's economic policies is growing rapidly, and no one responds.

http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=91662

Go Figure.

[Dorothy Wood]

that post is just stating statistics. what is anybody supposed to say about it?

I personally think it's ridiculous to blame the economy on obama, and that people who do are dumb. a lot more has led up to its collapse than what's happened in the past 6 months.

[RobMoney$]

the liberal members on this board, like saz and Droppin, tend to support their positions much more strongly than conservatives like valvano and Robmoney who typically come up with insubstantial info

that post is just stating statistics. what is anybody supposed to say about it?

LOL




I personally think it's ridiculous to blame the economy on obama, and that people who do are dumb. a lot more has led up to its collapse than what's happened in the past 6 months.

The longer he is the president, the more he takes ownership of all the problems facing the nation.
That's the reason you elected him, because you thought he was the best person to right the ship after Bush.


Also, the economy is a pretty broad topic, you find it hard to find anything to comment on about it?

[Dorothy Wood]

LOL






The longer he is the president, the more he takes ownership of all the problems facing the nation.
That's the reason you elected him, because you thought he was the best person to right the ship after Bush.


Also, the economy is a pretty broad topic, you find it hard to find anything to comment on about it?


if your position was that people are blaming obama for the economy, then your figures would support that position. it doesn't say anything about why they blame him, or state specifics about how obama's policies have affected the economy in real terms.

taking ownership of problems does not equal taking the blame. it's going to take a hell of a lot longer than 6 months to fix the economy. that's just common sense.

there, I commented.

[RobMoney$]

My position is,...

I was criticized for not offering any "substantial info" to back up any of my criticisms of Obama.
So I decided to make a thread quoting one of the most respected and credible polling firms out there, Rasmussen, which offered plenty of "substantial info" for my critics to chew on.
The fact that it was info showing that the number of people happen to agree with me in my criticisms are growing rather rapidly was just my way of being "ironic" I guess.

No one responded with any "substantial" responses, at all.


Then you said it was just all a bunch of info, and what did I expect anyone to comment on.




and then hilarity ensued.

[RobMoney$]

Now as for my position on people blaming Obama for the economy...

I believe there are people who expect this economic problem to start getting solved in 3 months.
Then there are some who expect it solved in 6 months,
and some in 9 months,
and some give it a year, and so on.
The longer we go, the more people there will be who expect to start seeing some results.

So far, all we've seen is massive amounts of money being thrown at the problem, which Biden has admitted that the administration "Guessed wrong" on.
And now we're being presented with the proposal of a nationalized medical program, (the medical industry accounts for about 20% of our GDP).
I think there's plenty of blame to be thrown Obama's way even tho he's only been around roughly 6 months.
People have very legitmite reasons to be concerned.

[Dorothy Wood]

My position is,...

I was criticized for not offering any "substantial info" to back up any of my criticisms of Obama.
So I decided to make a thread quoting one of the most respected and credible polling firms out there, Rasmussen, which offered plenty of "substantial info" for my critics to chew on.
The fact that it was info showing that the number of people happen to agree with me in my criticisms are growing rather rapidly was just my way of being "ironic" I guess.

No one responded with any "substantial" responses, at all.


Then you said it was just all a bunch of info, and what did I expect anyone to comment on.




and then hilarity ensued.


umm, posting a bunch of percentages doesn't prove anything. it's just showing public opinion.

now, if you had some sort of proof that obama's policies have worsened the economy, that would be substantial.

I'm glad you think this is so funny. I'm pretty much just annoyed that you think you're so smart.

I for one, have no idea how to fix the economy, and would never claim to know. the fact that 60% of regular schmoes think they know more than a harvard-educated man who was savvy enough to become the president of the united fucking states is completely laughable. it is literally insane.

[Dorothy Wood]

I believe there are people who expect this economic problem to start getting solved in 3 months.
Then there are some who expect it solved in 6 months,
and some in 9 months,
and some give it a year, and so on.



these people are idiots.

[RobMoney$]

the fact that 60% of regular schmoes think they know more than a harvard-educated man who was savvy enough to become the president of the united fucking states is completely laughable. it is literally insane.


I happen to work with a guy who was a Professor of Chemical Biology at Harvard at one time.
I personally think he's an idiot.

Oh, he can recite to you at a moments notice the molecular weight of just about any element on the Periodic table, but he normally needs help completing even 10% of the tasks everyone else of "normal" intelligence completes daily.
He over analyzes everything to the point of paralyzation.
He also wears velcro sneakers.



It's faulty logic to assign "intelligence" to someone based on the name of the University they attended.

[Schmeltz]

I guess you really are all that stupid.

Have fun in message board land people.

No more time for kiddie games.

Enjoy cyber life!

:cool:

So I guess the point NoFenders was really trying to make is that the difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals like to talk about issues, while conservatives would rather run away. Thank you, NoFenders.

As for you, Robmoney - it was probably unfair of me to lump you in with a genuine idiot like valvano, so you have my apologies. But I happen to agree that six months is not nearly enough time to fix the problems afflicting the largest and most complex economy in history, especially when you consider that the economy is not the only issue confronting the government. Anybody who voted for Obama on the premise that he would have everything fixed by now would have to be pretty dim, and I would say the same about anyone who would blame him for problems that arose years before his presidential campaign even got off the ground.

[Dorothy Wood]

I happen to work with a guy who was a Professor of Chemical Biology at Harvard at one time.
I personally think he's an idiot.

Oh, he can recite to you at a moments notice the molecular weight of just about any element on the Periodic table, but he normally needs help completing even 10% of the tasks everyone else of "normal" intelligence completes daily.
He over analyzes everything to the point of paralyzation.
He also wears velcro sneakers.



It's faulty logic to assign "intelligence" to someone based on the name of the University they attended.


ah geez, I knew you would glom on to the "harvard" thing and ignore the "savvy" part.

scientists are a whole different breed anyway. I have a friend who is absolutely brilliant in physical science and medicine. he recently ripped the shit out of the MCAT, scoring in the 99th percentile. however, he is a social retard* and knows very little about religion or literature. he probably doesn't know how to fix the economy either.

I'm just saying, I'm almost positive that barack obama is smarter than most people. an overwhelming percentage of them. therefore, I trust him more than I trust the 60% of people who think they know better. that's not to say he can't and won't make mistakes. I'm just not going to judge until I see proof that his decisions are the wrong ones. because the truth is, nobody really knows shit, this whole thing is a complete mess and it's never been encountered before. you can't even really look to the Great Depression as a model because the world's a whole lot more complicated today than it was back then. I'm just sayin, it's too early to say and it's pointless to gripe about what ifs.


*not the shy kind, the kind who swears in front of your grandmother, farts in public and flirts with women on dates in restaurants in front of their boyfriends.

[RobMoney$]

I happen to agree that six months is not nearly enough time to fix the problems afflicting the largest and most complex economy in history, especially when you consider that the economy is not the only issue confronting the government. Anybody who voted for Obama on the premise that he would have everything fixed by now would have to be pretty dim


I don't expect him to have the economy completely turned around and the US to be operating under a surplus in 6 months either,
but I also don't think it's unreasonable for people to want to see a bit of an upswing, or a little light at the end of the tunnel for their trillion dollars, so to speak either.

[DroppinScience]

you can't even really look to the Great Depression as a model because the world's a whole lot more complicated today than it was back then. I'm just sayin, it's too early to say and it's pointless to gripe about what ifs.


See, and the Great Depression wasn't solved in FDR's first six months as President either. I know the man had some of the most vociferous and ugly critics who wanted him to fail in his day as well (though they may have not had 3-hour talk radio shows, but still).

[RobMoney$]

Why are you guys acting as if he's only had 6 mos. to figure this thing out?

Yes, he's only been in office 6 mos, but the problem is much older than that. Bush rolled out the first $150 billion dollar stimulus package back in Feb. of '08. Obama had, at the very minimum, a year to prepare for this economic problem.

The $750 billion dollar stimulus package was one of the first things Obama did upon entering office, he was absolutely was aware of this problem prior to being elected, as well as everyone who voted for him should have been, and had this plan ready to roll upon entering office.
Was the economy not one of the hot button issues during the election?
I thought this economic plan was one of the major issues that led people to Obama in the first place?

All I can say is the Conservatives, like me, told you so.

[Schmeltz]

Why are you guys acting as if he's only had 6 mos. to figure this thing out?

Yes, he's only been in office 6 mos

Nobody is saying Obama has only had six months to think about this; if you read the posts above you will see that people are saying he's only had six months for his policies to take effect. Big difference. Having a plan is one thing, putting it into action is another. And if you yourself admit that he's only had six months to enact his policies, I don't see what grounds you have to act so smug. What exactly was it you told everyone? "I bet Obama won't have the economy fixed in six months"?

[RobMoney$]

The Dow dropped another -23.05 today.

I'm just sayin'.

[yeahwho]

The Dow dropped another -23.05 today.

I'm just sayin'.

It's obvious you like to equate any failure, whether it be domestic or international to President Obama. As insane as that is, it is your modus operandi.

The other thing you like to do is talk about how brilliant Bill Clinton was.

Yet Bill doesn't have any fucking ideas today, does he? He isn't doing anything for anyone since his genius presidential stint. The one where he let the fucking neo-conservative religious nutcases impeach him and take our country down to it's fucking knees.

[Dorothy Wood]

durable goods purchases up 2 months in a row (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105850402)

Orders for non-defense capital goods, a key proxy for business investment plans, jumped 4.8 percent, the biggest increase since September 2004. That could signal that businesses have stopped trimming their investment spending.

also, the nasdaq is up, so is the snp.


can we commend obama for this?

also also, -23.05 points amounts to .28%

[RobMoney$]

The other thing you like to do is talk about how brilliant Bill Clinton was.

Yet Bill doesn't have any fucking ideas today, does he? He isn't doing anything for anyone since his genius presidential stint. The one where he let the fucking neo-conservative religious nutcases impeach him and take our country down to it's fucking knees.


Are you serious? Allow me to list some of the Initiatives he's been responsible for starting since leaving office.

The Clinton Initiative (http://www.clintonglobalinitiative.org/Page.aspx?pid=2356)

WIKI - Clinton Foundation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_Foundation)


The Clinton Foundation HIV/AIDS Initiative (CHAI) - strives to make treatment for HIV/AIDS more affordable and to implement large-scale integrated care, treatment, and prevention programs.
Since its inception, CHAI has helped bring AIDS care and treatment to over 750,000 people living with HIV/AIDS around the world. Its activities have included AIDS care and treatment in Africa, including the brokering of drug distribution agreements. During President Clinton's 2006 trip to Africa, CHAI signed agreements with several new countries

The Clinton Global Initiative - CGI is stated as being a non-partisan catalyst for action, bringing together global leaders including heads of state, non-profit organizations, charities, and business leaders to discuss challenges facing the world today and devise and implement innovative solutions to some of the world’s most pressing challenges. The initiative culminates in an annual conference, at which each invited guest must make a specific commitment to address one of the focus areas discussed. CGI staff then monitors the progress and success of these commitments throughout the year.
Clinton himself has stated that the 2005 conference saw US$2.3 billion in commitments to donations, and that by the conclusion of the 2006 event, over US$7.3 billion was committed, including British entrepreneur Richard Branson's pledge to donate the profits of Virgin Atlantic and Virgin Trains, two of his Virgin Group's companies, over the next ten years to research environmentally friendly fuels. The donation is estimated to be worth US$3 billion.
In the conference's first announcement, First Lady Laura Bush announced a public-private partnership with the Case Foundation and others to install 4,000 Roundabout PlayPumps to bring water to up to 10 million people in Africa.

MyCommitment.org - Recognizing the power of private citizens to make a positive impact on the lives of others, President Clinton launched MyCommitment.org, an online portal that gives citizens around the world the opportunity to make their own Commitment to Action.

CGI University - In 2007, the Clinton Global Initiative (CGI) focused on expanding its successful model to engage new audiences in tackling global problems with practical, innovative solutions.

At its inaugural meeting, CGI University was held in March 2008 at Tulane University in New Orleans. More than 600 students and universities presidents from almost every state and 14 countries came together to inspire action on college campuses. Students and universities have made more than 800 Commitments to Action, in the areas of energy and climate change, global health, human rights and peace, and poverty alleviation.

CGI International - Responding to increasing interest among business and governments around the world, President Clinton launched CGI International to supplement the Annual Meeting in New York with additional meetings in various regions of the globe.
In December 2008, President Clinton convened the first CGI International meeting in Hong Kong to address local, regional and global challenges. The focus of the CGI meeting in Asia was on three main areas: education, energy and climate change, and public health. The two day meeting attracted over 3,000 accredited delegates, a record number for an NGO gathering in Asia. Prominent participants included: business leaders such as Ajay Banga, Ronnie Chan, Victor Fung, Christopher Graves and Stephen Roach; government leaders such as Gloria Arroyo, Lee Kuan Yew, Nambaryn Enkhbayar, and Donald Tsang Yum Kuen; NGO heads such as Elisea Gozun, David Ho, and Xiaoyi Liao; thought leaders such as Maris Martinsons, Sugata Mitra, and Hong Zhang; and the Secretary-Generals of both ASEAN and the United Nations - Surin Pitsuwan and Ban Ki-moon, respectively.

Clinton Climate Initiative - Building on his long term commitment to preserving the environment, President Clinton launched the Clinton Foundation’s Climate Initiative (CCI) in August 2006, with the mission of applying the Foundation’s business-oriented approach to fight against climate change in practical, measurable, and significant ways.

In May, 2007, CCI announced its first project which will help some large cities cut greenhouse gas emissions by facilitating retrofitting of existing buildings. Five large banks committed $1 billion each to help cities and building owners make energy-saving improvements aimed at lowering energy use and energy costs.

On May 19th, 2009, CCI announced the global Climate Positive Development Program. In collaboration with the U.S. Green Building Council, the program will support large-scale urban projects demonstrating that cities can grow in "climate positive" ways. Sixteen projects on six continents are announced as participating in the program.

Clinton Hunter Development Initiative (CHDI) - The Clinton Hunter Development Initiative was formed in 2006 as a partnership between Scottish philanthropist Sir Tom Hunter’s Hunter Foundation and former President Bill Clinton’s Clinton Foundation to target the root causes of poverty in Africa and promote sustainable economic growth.
The initiative will invest $100 million over the next 10 years in projects that will improve food security, clean water and sanitation, and quality health care. Right now, these programs are focused in Rwanda and Malawi, but can potentially be expanded to other countries in the future.

The Alliance for a Healthier Generation - Following his quadruple bypass surgery in 2004, President Clinton became even more outspoken importance of a healthy lifestyle and to the prevalence of childhood obesity in America. The Alliance for a Healthier Generation is a partnership between the Clinton Foundation and the American Heart Association that is working to end the childhood obesity epidemic in the United States by 2010.
Co-led by California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, the Alliance includes four: the Healthy Schools Program Go Healthy Challenge, a food and beverage industry program, and a healthcare initiative.

Clinton Economic Opportunity Initiative - President Clinton established the Clinton Economic Opportunity Initiative to help individuals and families succeed and business grow. The Foundation’s domestic efforts began in 2002 with the Harlem Small Business Initiative, which provided local business with pro bono consulting services. In 2007, CEO initiated the Financial Mainstream Program, which increases the access of unbanked populations to starter bank accounts and the Entrepreneur Mentoring Program, which pairs inner city entrepreneurs with successful business mentors. These new initiatives broadened CEO’s focus by promoting financial stability and money management skills and helping to develop sound business knowledge.

Clinton Giustra Sustainable Growth Initiative - Launched in 2007, CGSGI is working with local communities, the private sector, governments and other non-governmental organizations to develop new, practical models for businesses to spur sustainable social and economic development as an integral part of their operations in the developing world. CGSGI is focusing on market-driven development that creates jobs and increases incomes, and on enabling factors such as health and education.
CGSGI will focus on Latin America in its early phases, and anticipates expanding its work to additional countries to Latin America, Africa and beyond.




I actually can't think of a more active ex-president in history off the top of my head. The man should be considered for sainthood.

[Dorothy Wood]

pfft, take a bath, hippie

[Schmeltz]

The Dow dropped another -23.05 today.

I'm just sayin'.

GOD DAMMIT!! IF JOHN MCCAIN WAS THE PRESIDENT IT WOULD BE UP TEN THOUSAND POINTS BY NOW AND WE'D ALL BE RICH!!!

[yeahwho]

I actually can't think of a more active ex-president in history off the top of my head. The man should be considered for sainthood.

Jimmy Carter

[Documad]

Taft was the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court for about nine years.

[yeahwho]

The Dow dropped another -23.05 today.

I'm just sayin'.

psssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssst the Dow is +172.54 today.

I'm just sayin'.

[RobMoney$]

LOL @ you
Hope you didn't lose any sleep, up praying the DOW went up today just so you could come back and post that.

[yeahwho]

LOL @ you
Hope you didn't lose any sleep, up praying the DOW went up today just so you could come back and post that.

imitation is the sincerest form of being complimented or something like that