Why the police must be watched closely

[Michelle*s_Farm]

This sort of bad policing is common and politically motivated. I mean did this officer think it was it was his moral duty to assert his dominance? A little more thought before action would have been better for us all. Police officers and other servants of state (e.g., social workers, hospital workers etc) should first and foremost respect a citizen's right to defend their dignity:

Harvard professor Gates arrested

(CNN) -- African-American scholar and Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. was arrested last week on a charge of disorderly conduct after a confrontation with an officer at his home, according to a Cambridge, Massachusetts, police report.

According to the report, officers responded to a call Thursday from a woman who said she saw "a man wedging his shoulder into the front door" at Gates' house near the university. The report, obtained by CNN affiliate WCVB-TV, indicates Gates refused to identify himself to a police officer, claiming the officer was a racist.

Sgt. James Crowley of the Cambridge Police Department stated in the report that he told Gates he was investigating a report of a break-in at the residence. According to the report, Gates "opened the front door and exclaimed, 'Why, because I'm a black man in America?' "

Crowley wrote in the report that he warned Gates two times he was becoming disorderly. After Gates continued to yell and accuse him of racial bias, Crowley wrote he arrested Gates for "loud and tumultuous behavior in a public space."

A statement by Gates' lawyer and fellow Harvard professor Charles Ogletree said that the incident occurred when Gates returned to his home after a trip to China.

Gates, accompanied by a driver, found the front door damaged.

He entered the house with his key through the rear door. Then, he and and driver were able to force the front door open, Ogletree said in his statement.

The statement was published on the Web site The Root, of which Gates is editor-in-chief.

An officer arrived and told Gates he was investigating a call about a breaking-and-entering at the residence, Ogletree wrote.

Gates identified himself at the officer's request, according to Ogletree.

"He [Gates] turned to walk into the kitchen where he had left his wallet. The officer followed him. Professor Gates handed both his Harvard University identification and his valid Massachusetts driver's license to the officer," Ogletree wrote on The Root.

Ogletree's statement also said that Gates asked Crowley for his name and badge number several times without success.

Then, when Gates followed Crowley to the front door, Crowley said, "Thank you for accommodating my earlier request, and then placed him [Gates] under arrest," Ogletree said.

The Cambridge Police Department would not release any information regarding the incident.

Gates has one of 20 prestigious "university professors" positions at Harvard University, according to WCVB, and joined the faculty in 1991. He is considered one of the nation's pre-eminent scholars of African-American studies. In 1997, Time magazine placed him on its list of the 25 most influential Americans.





SOURCE: CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/21/massachusetts.harvard.professor.arrested/index.html

[b i o n i c]

dont even get me started on pigs

[Michelle*s_Farm]

dont even get me started on pigs

The strange thing is that we can hurl insults, rocks and complaints about them but young people keep applying to serve and protect the masses. I wonder if applicants to become a police officer truly believe that society would be violent without them patrolling the streets. I do not think there is any solid evidence that countries with police forces are more safe than those without.

[b i o n i c]

i would get into a debate about it, but most of the political discussion doesnt go anywhere here i think.

there's plenty of evidence that the police abuse their powers, and while i do think there is a smallish percentage of officers who do their jobs fairly and for the right reasons, i think a larger percentage of officers are either crooks in uniform or people who may've gone in for the right reasons but fall into the culture.

nypd, for one, are out of control.

[saz]

I do not think there is any solid evidence that countries with police forces are more safe than those without.

yeah, somalia is safe and sound.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

i would get into a debate about it, but most of the political discussion doesnt go anywhere here i think.

i think a larger percentage of officers are either crooks in uniform or people who may've gone in for the right reasons but fall into the culture.



Yes. It does seem that people are either too scared to discuss or so stubborn in their values (i.e., black and white thinkers) that political discussion is stiffled. It is strange how some people do not question the most basic of things (e.g., do we need to be policed at all, what is the best way to keep our communities safe from violence, do we even need to lock people up for drug selling or buying).

I saw this story (see below) that in The Netherlands they are closing down prisons because crime is at an all time low.

SOURCE:

http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2246821.ece/Netherlands_to_close_prisons_for_lack_of_criminals

[Michelle*s_Farm]

yeah, somalia is safe and sound.

Strange point considering that Somalia has a police force called the Somali Police Force (SPF):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Police_Force

[b i o n i c]

i wouldnt go so far as to say we do not need police

we do need them!

but we need police working for us... this is not what we have right now, at least not in nyc


here's something i posted a little bit back:

the cops become robbers

read this:
http://www.johnbyronkuhner.com/?p=905

this same type of thing has happened to me except i was asleep, my feet were on the ground and i wasnt taking up two seats.. my head was against the window. i woke up to the sight of a cop putting a ticket in my lap, he had taken my fucking wallet out of my jacket pocket (it was new years eve and it was late) - in other words, it was bullshit


basically the link is a story about this guy riding the nyc subway home late at night a few weeks ago. the train went into a station, and a few cops came in and pulled the men out of the car, left the women.

the were all told to sit and hand over id's without any explanation. this is in the middle of the night. and there were i think 6 cops doing this operation. the guy had to practically beg for a reason. they were told their names would be run for warrants and that they were all getting $50 tickets.

they are now doing subway sweeps and ticketing people for, in most cases, doing nothing. they said that the tickets were for things like putting your feet on a seat, but in most cases, the guys werent even doing that. but there is no questioning the nypd. see my story above. i know plenty of people who've had similar things happen.

this guy wasnt drunk, he wasnt black, he wasnt bothering anyone. he just happened to be on that train. this is not a once in a while thing, this is a campaign that they are on to make money for the city.

and some might say, hey, take it to court. right. its a waste of time. and the word is getting out that in most cases, people have to just pay up. doesnt this scare anyone? hasnt this kind of thing happened in history?

so basically its a money grab.

the people on the side of the nypd say, "well if you can't follow the rules, stay home". well, yeah.. but how would people feel about the police using their resources to put cops on every corner to ticket people for jaywalking? this is not what this guy or i did, but how is going on a ticketing spree to hold and fine people for stretching out on a half empty train at 3 in the morning much different than nabbing scores of people for jaywalking?

of course their numbers are up, when you start cracking down on bullshit like this its gonna pad the numbers. its disgusting.


i have TONS of these stories

[saz]

Strange point considering that Somalia has a police force called the Somali Police Force (SPF):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Police_Force

you missed the point, and this little blurb from the wikipedia (wikipedia also being the proverbial writing on the washroom wall) link:

After Siad Barre fled Mogadishu in January 1991, both the Darawishta and Birmadka forces ceased to operate, for all practical purposes.

somalia was in a state of total shambles when warlords and thugs overran the country, in which total chaos and anarchy ensued. i'm all for ending the war on drugs, but speculating, or better yet believing that there is no solid evidence that countries with police forces are more safe than those without is so utterly preposterous that it's laughable.

[Burnout18]

there's plenty of evidence that the police abuse their powers, and while i do think there is a smallish percentage of officers who do their jobs fairly and for the right reasons, i think a larger percentage of officers are either crooks in uniform or people who may've gone in for the right reasons but fall into the culture.



See i think its the other way around, the small percentage are the assholes who abuse thier power. When cops do go nuts, thats why it makes the front page of the daily news because its relatively rare when you consider the amount of people(and cops) in nyc. Don't act like every day some cop puts 41 shots in an unarmed black dude.

This case may be an example of an asshole but if this:

~According to the report, Gates "opened the front door and exclaimed, 'Why, because I'm a black man in America?' "~

is true, thats not smart on Gates's part is it?

[b i o n i c]

what you say about the percentages, maybe. im not closed to that possibility.

but i can tell you about my personal experiences and i can tell you that when i've needed them they've never been helpful.

like the time i got in a fender bender two blocks from times square late at night. i waited for TWO HOURS for a cop to come and take a police report that ultimately took 10 minutes. i called the police about 3 times over the course of this time.

and the "they've got better things to do" thing that some people might say doesnt fly with me.

i literally stood in the street, flagging them down. they didnt know what i wanted since me and the other guy parked our cars on the side of the road. im not exhaggerating when i say that at least 10 cop cars passed right by and kept going.

they would literally look the other way and keep driving. at the beginning of this ordeal, there was a small fire a block away, so i walked over as they were wrapping up and politely asked a bunch of cops if someone would come over when they were done. they all said, "oh yeah sure" so i went back. they wrapped up and left.

you know how i got one to stop after TWO HOURS? i took my camera out and pointed it at them as i had my hand up. the first one stopped and took the report.

now im not saying that everything in the world should stop for my little fender bender, but come on.

and i have at least 5 experiences JUST like this which i will spare you

and other experiences that involve things a little more serious than getting a police report.

from personal experiences i have a hard time giving nypd the respect that they command

[Burnout18]

yea i have shitty story similiar to that too, i waited for close to 45 mins after i called 911 after my accident on rt 80 in jersey. And the troopers that showed up were dicks. But again, who the fuck knows, maybe they showed up and saw me (i turn 24 on thursday but i can still pass for 18, i look like a baby) and thought i was some shithead kid who hit the divider while on his phone or something.

But as pissed as i was, i still didn't hold it against the entire population of cops, you know?

I have had run ins with the cops that were good and bad, in the city, in jersey and in college (in PA). Same thing everywhere, most good cops who are doing what they think is thier job, but some are hard asses just looking to fuck up your day.

[yeahwho]

I will tell you that two months ago my alarm system in my house went off inadvertently, I was asleep (it was 11:00 AM I'd been working night shift that day), woke up and reset it. While I walked around the house to check doors, windows, dogs and cats a knock came on the door. The police had been called and this officer was dispatched to my house. He actually snuck up to the house, his car was on another block.

He asked if I was the homeowner, if I knew an alarm was triggered and just like Gates experience in the above story asked to see my ID. Then he left.

I am white, I did not flip him any shit and I was tired, grateful nobody had actually ripped me off and I went to bed.

Draw your own conclusions on my incident. Was the fact that I didn't get obnoxious why I did not get charged? Or was it because I'm white? Or is it the officer was better at protecting citizens?

Or was it something else? I'm just saying that is how it happened in my case.

[RobMoney$]

According to the report, Gates "opened the front door and exclaimed, 'Why, because I'm a black man in America?' "


This is always a great idea of how to greet an officer investigating a B&E at your residence.

Perhaps if he had answered the door, exited the residence, and identified himself as the officer requested there wouldn't have been a problem.
Typical campus fuckface alarmist way to overreact.

The officer did nothing wrong, this Gates guy was the one who responded inappropriatley to the situation.
He should be removed from "teaching".

[yeahwho]

I'm not too sure how all of this actually went down for Gates, but it sounds as if he is extremely intelligent and focused on his ideology during all functions of his life.

The cop on the other hand sounds as if he's just an average guy with an a dangerous job that is disdained and respected at the furthest outreaches of society, he's doing his job and really doesn't need a lecture or schooling on societal standards. His job is about protecting you from sociopaths and thieves.

I do not correlate any wisdom coming out of this other than a bit of righteous indignation and exploitation of a guy who really had no intent to harass or be harassed.

[Documad]

Rob, get real. When a cop responds to a call of breaking and entering and sees a guy trying to jam his shoulder into the front door of the house, the cop has no right to ask the guy to step out on the lawn while the cop makes a call. What are you thinking? :rolleyes:

[saz]

actually it was an eye witness who saw a man wedging his shoulder into the front door at gates' home, and not the cop.

regardless, this is a he said-he said affair. and the charges were dropped (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_HARVARD_SCHOLAR_DISORDERLY?SITE=ILROR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT).

[b i o n i c]

Rob, get real. When a cop responds to a call of breaking and entering and sees a guy trying to jam his shoulder into the front door of the house, the cop has no right to ask the guy to step out on the lawn while the cop makes a call. What are you thinking? :rolleyes:

im curious to know what you think about the link i posted, doc? maybe also if you think that police abuse of power exists or not in the us or nyc

[yeahwho]

Why would he yell at the cop? Did this officer do anything other than respond to a call to see if a house was being robbed?

As I said before when I installed my alarm system I knew one day a mistake would happen (because I'm a fuck up not a college professor) and when it did happen I responded graciously that somebody did show up.

Just my take on this, I actually believe Gates would of been less outraged if he was robbed blind*. Then he would have nobody to publicly blame. Why doesn't he make a movie on how smart college professors are and why society is so bankrupt up because of it?

*i wanted to say colorblind

[Burnout18]

I will tell you that two months ago my alarm system in my house went off inadvertently, I was asleep (it was 11:00 AM I'd been working night shift that day), woke up and reset it. While I walked around the house to check doors, windows, dogs and cats a knock came on the door. The police had been called and this officer was dispatched to my house. He actually snuck up to the house, his car was on another block.

He asked if I was the homeowner, if I knew an alarm was triggered and just like Gates experience in the above story asked to see my ID. Then he left.

I am white, I did not flip him any shit and I was tired, grateful nobody had actually ripped me off and I went to bed.

Draw your own conclusions on my incident. Was the fact that I didn't get obnoxious why I did not get charged? Or was it because I'm white? Or is it the officer was better at protecting citizens?

Or was it something else? I'm just saying that is how it happened in my case.

Dude that story actually reminded me, when i first got my license, i left my house and put on my alarm but forgot to lock the door..... i came back ten minutes later and cops were inside my house(the door had blown open from the wind)..... dude the first thing i said when i saw those cops was "I live here, officers." I didn't flip out cause cops were in my house. They didn't even ask for ID they just said ok, laughed at my pussy ass dog who didnt even bark when they walked in and left..... again like you, i was a white kid who didn't overreact maybe that has something to do with not being charged with anything.

[yeahwho]

Police said Gates was arrested after he yelled at an officer, accused him of racial bias and refused to calm down after the officer demanded that Gates show him identification to prove he lived in the home.

Jesse Jackson also piped in,

The Rev. Jesse Jackson said he was unsatisfied with the resolution.

"The charges have been dropped, but the stain remains. ... Humiliation remains," Jackson said. "These incidents are so much of a national pattern on race."

These are the sort of people Obama distanced himself from during the 2008 campaign, draw your own conclusions.

My conclusion is they want to advance un-cooperative behavior.

[Documad]

im curious to know what you think about the link i posted, doc? maybe also if you think that police abuse of power exists or not in the us or nyc

The link doesn't work for me. I have to leave for a concert in a couple of minutes anyhow. I don't know about NYC in particular but there are certainly bad cops out there. I've had mostly good experiences myself, both as a citizen and in working with them professionally, but I also knew a few bad ones. I also know a few bad attorneys, doctors, general contractors, etc. It's a horrible job and I'm grateful that people want to do it because I sure as hell wouldn't.

[Documad]

I'm willing to believe that a cop would ask more questions of a black guy who appeared to breaking into his own home than the cop would ask of me in the same circumstance. That sucks, but I believe that it happens. And cops aren't the only people who assume things based on race. We have to be vigilant about racial issues. It sounds like the cops were correct to recommend dismissal in this case.

But it doesn't mean that we should get rid of police altogether as was suggested by the person who started this thread.

By the way, I have several friends who are raising black teenage boys and they teach their sons to cooperate with police and not to mouth off. You don't get anywhere by yelling at a cop or threatening him.

[yeahwho]

It's the Dog Days of summer already, look at the Headlines in Seattle today, 2 troopers accused in deadly clubbing of seagulls (http://www.komonews.com/news/local/51261962.html)

[b i o n i c]

when you get a chance, look up gothamist.com and search "smart guy" "nypd" you'll find the story.

OF COURSE there are good and bad whatevers.

but we;re talking about he POLICE whose jobs are ONLY to PROTECT us. the capitals are my about my own disenchantment with them, its not to you


i dont count on my neighbors' contractors to do good work for me
i dont count on my friends' doctor to treat me well.

but we all count on our public 'servants' to do us all right.

and i have a degree of gratefulness for many of our public servants to do the job they are assigned. like our troops overseas. i completely understand that they are following orders. i refuse to disrespect a soldier coming home from iraq for doing what he has been told to do. and maybe it can be looked at the same way with the nypd. i can still look at the outcome and be disgusted. and like our firemen. i HAVE and am thankful to them for what they do. but the gratitude ends when they're not doing their job. not to mention the fact that they, in the case of nypd or fdny, are well paid to do what they do. im inclinded to believe that, for some nypd, at least some of these dudes arent really joining to 'serve'. they are joining for the salaries and benefits. and they've got some KILLER benefits. check em out. its not like they're volunteers. so they should be expected to work FOR US, and not just be painted with the broad brush of wonderful public servants. they are paid to work. and they do, but i ask myself FOR WHOM?


check out the story if you get a chance.. i respect your opinions and would like to know more what you think just specifically on this matter.

[RobMoney$]

I'm admittedly not as familiar with the NYPD or the criticisms against them as you are Bionic, but I have a hard time believing anyone's joining the force simply for the salary and the bennies, no matter how good they are.
And they deserve great benefits, don't you think?

[RobMoney$]

Police said Gates was arrested after he yelled at an officer, accused him of racial bias and refused to calm down after the officer demanded that Gates show him identification to prove he lived in the home.

Jesse Jackson also piped in,

The Rev. Jesse Jackson said he was unsatisfied with the resolution.

"The charges have been dropped, but the stain remains. ... Humiliation remains," Jackson said. "These incidents are so much of a national pattern on race."

These are the sort of people Obama distanced himself from during the 2008 campaign, draw your own conclusions.

My conclusion is they want to advance un-cooperative behavior.

out-fucking-standing post.

[b i o n i c]

I'm admittedly not as familiar with the NYPD or the criticisms against them as you are Bionic, but I have a hard time believing anyone's joining the force simply for the salary and the bennies, no matter how good they are.
And they deserve great benefits, don't you think?


100% absolutely. they definitely deserve great benefits. i think that as they deserve these benefits, we deserve a force that work for us. this is what we're paying for. world class benefits for world class protection.

[Dorothy Wood]

I would just like to say that I find it hard to believe that this nerdy little old man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq_TsHadYx0) was in any way threatening to a police officer, even if he was yelling.

I mean, he just got home from China, he was probably sleepy and crabby. I'd sure as hell start yelling at a cop if he was accusing me of breaking into my own house.

the report sounds fishy to me, the "black man in america" thing just sounds kinda made up. or maybe he said it, but in a sarcastic way. I guess we'll never know.

I think that even if he got rowdy, it sounds like he did identify himself. so the officer should've just been like, "okay, man, just calm down." and explained how his reaction was uncalled for. he should never have arrested him. it's absolutely preposterous that he would be considered threatening.

I mean look at him with Oprah, she's only 5'6": http://www-tc.pbs.org/previews/images/detail/program_detail_OPRA_1.jpg

and here: http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/10.14/photos/8-dubois1-450.jpg


and here he is poking a ghost of lincoln: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p91V-BHfe6k


he's just a little nerdy dude.

[yeahwho]

he's just a little nerdy dude.

Perhaps we're missing the true problem here, the Napoleon complex.

[RobMoney$]

also, little nerdy dudes are fully capable of committing B&E.
and little nerdy dudes can also carry big weapons as well.
The police must approach every situation expecting the worst until they gain info that tells them otherwise. They also have a right to protect themselves and it's their standard proceedure they must follow in that situation.
Some of the absolute toughest dudes I've ever known in my life were little nerdy looking dudes.

Being a little nerdy dude is not an appropriate defense for disobeying a police officers' directions and being verbally abusive while he's investigating a reported crime.
SOP (standard operating proceedure) would dictate the police to place the guy being abusive and interfering with the investigation under arrest so that the investigation can continue unimpeeded.

[kaiser soze]

It's not like the cop beat the shit out of him over a shoe or choked him to death for a bag of drugs

now those are cops to be pissed off about

[saz]

I would just like to say that I find it hard to believe that this nerdy little old man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq_TsHadYx0) was in any way threatening to a police officer, even if he was yelling.

I mean, he just got home from China, he was probably sleepy and crabby. I'd sure as hell start yelling at a cop if he was accusing me of breaking into my own house.

the report sounds fishy to me, the "black man in america" thing just sounds kinda made up. or maybe he said it, but in a sarcastic way. I guess we'll never know.

I think that even if he got rowdy, it sounds like he did identify himself. so the officer should've just been like, "okay, man, just calm down." and explained how his reaction was uncalled for. he should never have arrested him. it's absolutely preposterous that he would be considered threatening.

I mean look at him with Oprah, she's only 5'6": http://www-tc.pbs.org/previews/images/detail/program_detail_OPRA_1.jpg

and here: http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/10.14/photos/8-dubois1-450.jpg


and here he is poking a ghost of lincoln: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p91V-BHfe6k


he's just a little nerdy dude.

yep, i wouldn't be surprised if gates was jetlagged and miserable and being a dick to the cop, sgt. james crowley, who may have overreacted and thought to himself "i don't have to take this crap" and arrested him. then, his captain after reviewing this probably said "are you serious?" and the charges were dropped.

[Dorothy Wood]

yep, i wouldn't be surprised if gates was jetlagged and miserable and being a dick to the cop, sgt. james crowley, who may have overreacted and thought to himself "i don't have to take this crap" and arrested him. then, his captain after reviewing this probably said "are you serious?" and the charges were dropped.

(y)


Personally, I have been apprehended by police and accused of doing something I didn't do (breaking a taillight with my fist) in savannah, georgia on St. Patrick's day. Granted, I was hammered (along with thousands of other people), and kicked and spit and fought and yelled, "I DIDN'T DO IT! I'M INNOCENT!" because I knew that I really didn't fucking do it. and you can't just grab people off the street and manhandle them and accuse them of doing stuff they didn't do. I don't care if you're a cop or not. My friends were pleading with me to calm down, but I kept being obnoxious, albeit honest with the police. I kept asking them to show me the car, show me the person who accused me. and they wouldn't.

Finally, I guess they were having the guy look at me from across the street, because another cop came over and said, "he says it wasn't her." and I went, "SEE! SEE! I TOLD YOU I WAS INNOCENT!" and then he told me to shut up and get out of his face or he could arrest me. So then my friend and I bolted, laughing like maniacs.


Now, obviously I was being a stupid asshole, but my instinct when falsely accused was to scream and fight back. and I will say that being jet-lagged and tired is akin to being drunk...so Gates' reaction could have been less than appropriate (again, we don't know exactly what happened, since none of us were there, and the story is different on either side), due to impaired judgement. politeness and procedure washed away and he basically just screamed, "I LIVE HERE! FUCK YOU!"

which I think is totally normal, and that he wouldn't have been arrested if he were white.

[kaiser soze]

I would understand if the man was upset about the possible break-in, but for the most part I would also assume he is quite an intelligent individual which would equate to a cool and calm problem solver.

You would think his first response to the officer would be to thank them for showing and be cooperative so he can get the assistance from them that he needed (in regards to filing a police report about the possible break-in)

[Michelle*s_Farm]

you missed the point, and this little blurb from the wikipedia (wikipedia also being the proverbial writing on the washroom wall) ...

... i'm all for ending the war on drugs, but speculating, or better yet believing that there is no solid evidence that countries with police forces are more safe than those without is so utterly preposterous that it's laughable.

I think your elitist views on wikipedia are unreasonable -- it is at least as good as a source as one's personal experience lol

Is the wiki entry below at washroom wall level -- if so, then the toilet must be located in an ivy league genetics department:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_7_(human)

Source elitism aside, I disagree with you that it is laughable or preposterous to question what data there is that more police officers reduces the amount of crime. My perspective is that humans are evolved to be both good-natured (i.e., cooperative and fair-minded) and not so good-natured (i.e., cheating and violent) by design. In traditional societies (e.g., egalitarian ones, hunter-gatherer tribes etc.) which characterise millions of years of human existence there were no organised state-run police forces. It is true that things could be violent but at the same time most small scale societies were cooperative and peaceful to members of the in-group. Individuals that violated social norms would be swiftly punished and ostracised. The desire to punish those that violate social norms is likely an evolved attribute of human nature. Further non-state controlled policing evolves by means of natural selection and exists across animal societies (e.g., insect societies).

I appreciate that humans now live in large urban areas where people can be anonymous and sometimes go unpunished. The response has been to recruit more police officers to enforce laws (some of which make no sense at all). I am suprised to read in many newspapers that crime rates are rising and what we need is more police to reduce the crime rate. Below is such an article:

http://www.herald-dispatch.com/homepage/x469563527

Therefore I decided to run three quick and dirty statistical analyses correlating number of police officers with the number of crimes. The findings suggest that the two are positively correlated (p < 0.05). That is the more police officers a state has employed the more crimes are committed (not less as the article above suggests): r = 0.70, p < 0.05. I understand that my analysis is biased in part because larger states will have more people, more crime and more police officers. So the best analysis would be to control for population size (which I have not done). The second and third analyses of the relationships remove DC (DC removed r = 0.38, p < 0.05) which has a high number of police officers and a very high crime rate. Regardless I do not advocate removing police forces and going back to a hunter-gatherer existence (which I am sure was in part nasty, brutish and short). Nonetheless my main point is that state-operated police forces must be constantly questioned and when an officer determines that you are indeed on your property and not breaking into the premises they should absorb the insults, apologise and go on their way. I am glad that the charges were dropped. I hope the charges were not dropped just because this was a Harvard Professor as many African Americans likely experience police harassment each day without apology or vindication.

Please find graphs below of my analyses showing that increasing number of police officers is associated with more (not less) crime by state.

http://img38.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=policecrimecorrelationo.jpg

[Burnout18]

(y)


Personally, I have been apprehended by police and accused of doing something I didn't do (breaking a taillight with my fist) in savannah, georgia on St. Patrick's day. Granted, I was hammered (along with thousands of other people), and kicked and spit and fought and yelled, "I DIDN'T DO IT! I'M INNOCENT!" because I knew that I really didn't fucking do it. and you can't just grab people off the street and manhandle them and accuse them of doing stuff they didn't do. I don't care if you're a cop or not. My friends were pleading with me to calm down, but I kept being obnoxious, albeit honest with the police. I kept asking them to show me the car, show me the person who accused me. and they wouldn't.

Finally, I guess they were having the guy look at me from across the street, because another cop came over and said, "he says it wasn't her." and I went, "SEE! SEE! I TOLD YOU I WAS INNOCENT!" and then he told me to shut up and get out of his face or he could arrest me. So then my friend and I bolted, laughing like maniacs.


Now, obviously I was being a stupid asshole, but my instinct when falsely accused was to scream and fight back. and I will say that being jet-lagged and tired is akin to being drunk...so Gates' reaction could have been less than appropriate (again, we don't know exactly what happened, since none of us were there, and the story is different on either side), due to impaired judgement. politeness and procedure washed away and he basically just screamed, "I LIVE HERE! FUCK YOU!"

which I think is totally normal, and that he wouldn't have been arrested if he were white.

what the fuck were you doing? Trying to get maced?

[Michelle*s_Farm]

what the fuck were you doing? Trying to get maced?

Or tasered like this poor fucker below who burst into flames:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8161026.stm

[Dorothy Wood]

I would understand if the man was upset about the possible break-in, but for the most part I would also assume he is quite an intelligent individual which would equate to a cool and calm problem solver.

You would think his first response to the officer would be to thank them for showing and be cooperative so he can get the assistance from them that he needed (in regards to filing a police report about the possible break-in)


why would he be upset about a break-in, when he would have already figured out that someone thought he was the one breaking in?

I'm not sure you realize how much one's judgment and ability to rationalize can be compromised when tired.


I think it's naive to assume that racial prejudice was not involved in this situation. I've mentioned this before, but I used to work with a black guy who would go out in back inside a gate and smoke cigarettes. The guys who lived in the apartment above the store had had things stolen from their porch, as had other residents in the area (metal things like grill lids, for scrapping). So cops would roll down the alley several times a day...and so my coworker would get harassed any time he happened to be out there at the same time. They'd pull up and ask him what he was doing, and he'd refuse and say, "I work here, this is private property, I don't have to tell you shit." and he'd put out his cigarette and walk back inside and lock the door.

what happened when I was out there smoking and the cops rolled by? oh right, nothing.

[b i o n i c]

what the fuck were you doing? Trying to get maced?

why the fuck would they have to mace her? she was talking/speaking/yelling. if she was being physically aggressive, maybe.

this is the problem.

like this case in new york where the nypd was doing a sting operation, surveilling a block. a known drug neighborhood. there was an officer sitting on someone's stoop and another one on the next stoop over. the owner of the building came out and found what he thought was another drug dealer on his stoop and told the guy to beat it. the cop didnt identify himself, a scuffle ensued, the landlord was shot dead.

now, why in the fuck did this guy deserve to die?

there was another cop one stoop over. at most, he couldve run over and subdued the guy without using a gun or a taser. at most. no, the killed him. they are now saying that the cop had an earpiece in so he didnt hear the landlord and also saying that the gun went off accidentally. bullshit.

this is abuse... in that example, beyond abuse.. and so are things like what happened to d. she was out having fun. they were on duty. macing, tasering or shooting are simply injustifiable in cases where the victim is not a physical threat.

[Dorothy Wood]

what the fuck were you doing? Trying to get maced?

I don't know, I was totally wasted. I was walking with my friends to get a cab back to our hotel and a dude (a security guard) grabbed my arms from behind, twisted them back and held my wrists in a position to be cuffed. and I fought back, yelling, "LET GO OF ME!", because you can't just do that to people. I had no fear because I knew I hadn't done anything wrong, so I became enraged as he dragged me over to a bunch of cops.

I still would've fought tooth and nail if I were actually arrested, or especially if I were maced/tased. They treated me like shit, and I did NOTHING. when I was cleared by the accuser, and threatened with arrest for being drunk and disorderly, I calmed down and got out of there. because I was definitely guilty of being drunk and disorderly.

I don't know, my basic instinct when I feel threatened is to start punching and yelling. it comes down to the primitive "fight or flight" response; I fight.

example: once I woke up while spending the night at a friend's house. I thought there was someone standing in the room staring at me in the dark. so I got up, walked over and punched the creep. turns out the creep was just a vcr atop a t.v. and stereo system. the whole thing went a'tumblin. oops.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

why the fuck would they have to mace her? she was talking/speaking/yelling. if she was being physically aggressive, maybe.

this is the problem.

like this case in new york where the nypd was doing a sting operation, surveilling a block. a known drug neighborhood. there was an officer sitting on someone's stoop and another one on the next stoop over. the owner of the building came out and found what he thought was another drug dealer on his stoop and told the guy to beat it. the cop didnt identify himself, a scuffle ensued, the landlord was shot dead.

now, why in the fuck did this guy deserve to die?

there was another cop one stoop over. at most, he couldve run over and subdued the guy without using a gun or a taser. at most. no, the killed him. they are now saying that the cop had an earpiece in so he didnt hear the landlord and also saying that the gun went off accidentally. bullshit.

this is abuse... in that example, beyond abuse.. and so are things like what happened to d. she was out having fun. they were on duty. macing, tasering or shooting are simply injustifiable in cases where the victim is not a physical threat.

Now that is the truth. Disturbing as it is -- I guess "the truth" is often sobering, depressing or both.

[b i o n i c]

so it turns out gates and cop went inside the house. gates showed the cop id.

http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr

"Professor Gates immediately called the Harvard Real Estate office to report the damage to his door and requested that it be repaired immediately. As he was talking to the Harvard Real Estate office on his portable phone in his house, he observed a uniformed officer on his front porch. When Professor Gates opened the door, the officer immediately asked him to step outside. Professor Gates remained inside his home and asked the officer why he was there. The officer indicated that he was responding to a 911 call about a breaking and entering in progress at this address. Professor Gates informed the officer that he lived there and was a faculty member at Harvard University. The officer then asked Professor Gates whether he could prove that he lived there and taught at Harvard. Professor Gates said that he could, and turned to walk into his kitchen, where he had left his wallet. The officer followed him. Professor Gates handed both his Harvard University identification and his valid Massachusetts driver’s license to the officer. Both include Professor Gates’ photograph, and the license includes his address.

Professor Gates then asked the police officer if he would give him his name and his badge number. He made this request several times. The officer did not produce any identification nor did he respond to Professor Gates’ request for this information. After an additional request by Professor Gates for the officer’s name and badge number, the officer then turned and left the kitchen of Professor Gates’ home without ever acknowledging who he was or if there were charges against Professor Gates. As Professor Gates followed the officer to his own front door, he was astonished to see several police officers gathered on his front porch. Professor Gates asked the officer’s colleagues for his name and badge number. As Professor Gates stepped onto his front porch, the officer who had been inside and who had examined his identification, said to him, “Thank you for accommodating my earlier request,” and then placed Professor Gates under arrest. He was handcuffed on his own front porch."

[yeahwho]

so it turns out gates and cop went inside the house. gates showed the cop id.

http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr

That article conflicts the original written piece presented on this post;

(the first account)
According to the report, officers responded to a call Thursday from a woman who said she saw "a man wedging his shoulder into the front door" at Gates' house near the university. The report, obtained by CNN affiliate WCVB-TV, indicates Gates refused to identify himself to a police officer, claiming the officer was a racist.

Sgt. James Crowley of the Cambridge Police Department stated in the report that he told Gates he was investigating a report of a break-in at the residence. According to the report, Gates "opened the front door and exclaimed, 'Why, because I'm a black man in America?' "

Crowley wrote in the report that he warned Gates two times he was becoming disorderly. After Gates continued to yell and accuse him of racial bias, Crowley wrote he arrested Gates for "loud and tumultuous behavior in a public space."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now this second account from saz' link;

The officer then asked Professor Gates whether he could prove that he lived there and taught at Harvard. Professor Gates said that he could, and turned to walk into his kitchen, where he had left his wallet. The officer followed him. Professor Gates handed both his Harvard University identification and his valid Massachusetts driver’s license to the officer. Both include Professor Gates’ photograph, and the license includes his address.

So in one link he refuses to show ID then in another written by his attorney he shows his ID willingly.

Professor Gates is IMO a publicity freak. How embarrassing for him is all I've got to say. A very similar incident happened to me within the past 2 months and I cooperated, sure it's a bit scary to have a cop doubt who you are at your own house, but in my mind if I played devils advocate as if I were the thief and felt that as fucked up as that day was, the right thing happened.

Cops aren't the receptacle for your POV. They're just trying to keep the peace. Give 'em a bit of a break. This sort of story actually makes more compassionate towards law enforcement. It is a classic elitist trying to exploit a very normal situation into his cause while ignoring the fact the average joe is doing what he's paid to do.

[Dorothy Wood]

So in one link he refuses to show ID then in another written by his attorney he shows his ID willingly.

Professor Gates is IMO a publicity freak. How embarrassing for him is all I've got to say. A very similar incident happened to me within the past 2 months and I cooperated, sure it's a bit scary to have a cop doubt who you are at your own house, but in my mind if I played devils advocate as if I were the thief and felt that as fucked up as that day was, the right thing happened.

Cops aren't the receptacle for your POV. They're just trying to keep the peace. Give 'em a bit of a break. This sort of story actually makes more compassionate towards law enforcement. It is a classic elitist trying to exploit a very normal situation into his cause while ignoring the fact the average joe is doing what he's paid to do.


you can't be serious! what's this about a thief? there's no thief, what are you even talking about?

number 1, why the hell would a burglar answer the door to a cop? why would a burglar get upset and start arguing with the cop if he did indeed answer the door. the guilty are quiet, the innocent fight back. that is basic shit.

also, this was not in public. unless they're saying he was arrested in the middle of the street. even if he was, the incident began on private property.


I'm not taking Gates' lawyer's word completely and I'm not taking the cop's word either. both parties made mistakes, and it's an unfortunate situation. Calling Gates and elitist and accusing him of exploiting an average joe is laughable. what is his "cause" anyway? racial equality? ohhh, nooo!!!!!!


ugh, I am so annoyed with what you just said! :mad:

[Burnout18]

I don't know, I was totally wasted. I was walking with my friends to get a cab back to our hotel and a dude (a security guard) grabbed my arms from behind, twisted them back and held my wrists in a position to be cuffed. and I fought back, yelling, "LET GO OF ME!", because you can't just do that to people. I had no fear because I knew I hadn't done anything wrong, so I became enraged as he dragged me over to a bunch of cops.



still, I'm sure about 80% of the time people getting arrested yell/say "I'm innocent." Very rarely do people shout "Good Work Detective, you got me."

See i go the other way and try to be calm, cause just imagine being innocent, but ending up getting nabbed for disorderly conduct/public drunkeness or resisting arrest.... even if its a slap on the wrist or just a night in the drunk tank you dont want to add a charge to what should be nothing.... or at least thats my theory.

[RobMoney$]

The whole "but he said he was jet-lagged" excuse is absolutely hilarious.


Was he jet-lagged the next day when he decided to proceed with this racially motivated publicity campaign?

[RobMoney$]

number 1, why the hell would a burglar answer the door to a cop? why would a burglar get upset and start arguing with the cop if he did indeed answer the door. the guilty are quiet, the innocent fight back. that is basic shit.


because he's high?


A junkie tried to break in a friend of mine's house.
His neighbor saw it and called the cops.
The cops showed up and the neighbor came out to greet them where they saw the junkie sitting on yet another neighbors lawn with jewelry from that home on him.
He was too stoned to even run away.
He said it was his home he was sitting in front of and his gold jewelry.

[DroppinScience]

I think your elitist views on wikipedia are unreasonable -- it is at least as good as a source as one's personal experience lol

Is the wiki entry below at washroom wall level -- if so, then the toilet must be located in an ivy league genetics department:

Look, I know that in general Wikipedia can be a reliable resource, but you are aware that there's a whole wealth of material outside of Wikipedia, right? My God, that's what a library is for. :rolleyes:

[b i o n i c]

because he's high?

but that wasn't the case here

[Dorothy Wood]

to Rob:

we're talking about a 58 year old gray haired man wearing a polo shirt and wire rimmed glasses...not a fucking junkie. jesus.


as for the jet-lag, I said that. I didn't read that he said that. I just know that when I went to europe years ago, I felt like a fucking lunatic after the flight. I can very much imagine that he would be a bit tuckered out at least and possibly very crabby after a trip back from China and having to bust into his own stupid house.



why don't you put some links to his "publicity campaign"? because I don't know what you're talking about. is he all over the t.v.? I don't watch much t.v. anymore.

I find it hard to believe that a gentleman who talks about racism being rooted in economic status and fear, would be the type to be a crusader for the black elitist agenda.

I bet if he were a biology professor instead of an african american history professor, nobody would be accusing him of even having a "cause".

[b i o n i c]

he has come out speaking about what happened. its kind of what he does, one would expect him to speak out. and he should!

is it possibile that maybe the person who called the cops might've known whom they were calling the cops on? look at the guy! i have a hard time believing that anyone could look at gates and think this is a guy out lookin to loot some houses. a neighbor would likely know who lives around them, no?

burglars don't answer the door. burglars don't wear brooks brothers polo shirts and expensive glasses. come on, mang!

regardless, its hard to not see how the guy would be pissed off. im not going to re-state all of the above. he has every right to be pissed off and not be arrested.

btw, my issue with police has little to do with race. black cops are perfectly capable of abusing their authority. it doesnt always have to be about race. it isn't always personal. it can be about raising revenues, getting numbers up or just plain knuckleheadedness. and yes, people can be knuckleheads im sure, but they arent the ones on the clock.

ps. in ALLLLLL of my experiences with police I have ALLLLWAYS been respectful, maybe even too respectful. i don't feel that really changes much when there is a disposition to roll over someone, anyone.

[RobMoney$]

Wait, so now we want our police to judge someone by their appearance?
Hey, this guy has expensive glasses and Brooks Brothers on, he can't be a thief.

If I was a thief I'd be going out the next day to get myself one of those exact outfits.

I don't know, Dorothy's coming off as really naive if you really think a cop should have dismissed someone as a thief based on the clothes they were wearing.
I've seen and heard way too many scams people try to get away with to ever fall for anything like that.
I mean what do you think, all thiefs are dressed in all black clothes and a black ski-mask?

Imagine if the cops had arrived and actually discovered the thief but allowed him to continue robbing the place because he was dressed well and threw the race card out at the cop all indignantly.
Criminals are bold, I could see someone trying to pull it off.
They'd be fired immediatley, and rightly so.

[Dorothy Wood]

okayyy, so...burglars who are stupid enough to bash open a front door in plain view, are yet clever enough to use reverse psychology and then pretend to be the homeowner when the cops come calling?


WARNING TO AMERICA: BE ON THE LOOK OUT FOR TINY OLD MEN IN POLO SHIRTS AND GLASSES PRETENDING TO LIVE IN YOUR HOUSE, IT'S A TRICK! THEY ARE ROBBING PEOPLE BLIND!!!


so ridiculous. he would have never been arrested if he were white, bottom line.

[b i o n i c]

the thing is, he proved he lived there. the man had a right to be pissed. he had a right to be pissed because if he were a white dude in a brooks bros shirt and $500 glasses, the cops woulda waved him off. i know that, you know that.

look, i grew up in a nice white town and hung out with mostly nice 'white' kids.

when we were teenagers, we would go to the park to smoke and drink and i cannot tell you the amount of times we'd get rolled on by the cops. the times we got caught, no one ever got arrested. the worst thing that ever happened was they'd make us dump our shit and smush it into the ground with our feet (which we would later go back to with flashlights)

during that same time, when we would still get the local paper, there would be police blotter accounts of probably non-white, or more likely non-local people getting arrested or fined for the same kind of shit they laughed off when it was us. thats not fair.

ya gotta recognise that selective enforcement exists. and im not gonna say i wish we were arrested. or that i hate every single cop in the world. but the fact is that justice is not equal. thats my point.

[kaiser soze]

I'm sure this was in a nice neighborhood, In that case this guy should be thankful the cops were thorough.

Sorry to Dorothy about the break in comment - I swear I read somewhere the front door was jammed (sounded like a break-in attempt did occur)

In other news, home raids and break ins (including a daytime robbery of a popular off campus deli) are on the rise in my county. I'm a bit concerned for my mom who lives not too far where a woman was murdered a year or so ago.

[Dorothy Wood]

the thing is, he proved he lived there. the man had a right to be pissed. he had a right to be pissed because if he were a white dude in a brooks bros shirt and $500 glasses, the cops woulda waved him off. i know that, you know that.

look, i grew up in a nice white town and hung out with mostly nice 'white' kids.

when we were teenagers, we would go to the park to smoke and drink and i cannot tell you the amount of times we'd get rolled on by the cops. the times we got caught, no one ever got arrested. the worst thing that ever happened was they'd make us dump our shit and smush it into the ground with our feet (which we would later go back to with flashlights)

during that same time, when we would still get the local paper, there would be police blotter accounts of probably non-white, or more likely non-local people getting arrested or fined for the same kind of shit they laughed off when it was us. thats not fair.

ya gotta recognise that selective enforcement exists. and im not gonna say i wish we were arrested. or that i hate every single cop in the world. but the fact is that justice is not equal. thats my point.


yup. my friend works at the kiddie jail and there are so many black kids in there on possession of marijuana, that's it, not even for selling it, just having it on them. she said there are never white kids in there on possession of marijuana, it's always something much harder.

white kid with pot=warning
black kid with pot=jail


it's bullshit.

[b i o n i c]

yes and to be honest, like i said, it could be just socio-economic discrimination sometimes.

[RobMoney$]

he would have never been arrested if he were white, bottom line.


I think that a distinguished Harvard University proffessor like Mr. Gates is likely to get much more respect than the average white man in most situations in society.
The idea that he's somehow the victim of the same racism that sends poor black men to prison simply doesn't fly with me, and Gates should be careful about exploiting the plight of black men across America to win his battle of egos with the Cambridge Police Department.

Stereotypical campus fuckface Harvard arrogance.

Where was Mr Gates when the Jena Six incident was happening?
The Duke Lacrosse team alleged rape?
Michael Richards even?...NOTHING!

Perhaps the next time there is another Jena Six incident, Dr. Gates will fight as diligently for poor black men as he is fighting for himself.

[b i o n i c]

rob, simple question from a simpleton like me..

do you believe that there is no such thing as racism/socio-economic discrimination in american law enforcement?

[RobMoney$]

I think racism is as old as man itself.
When we were writing on the walls of caves and we were forming tribes in order to survive, I'm sure man looked at members of his own tribe differently than members of another tribe.

It's unfortunate, but it's a fact that everyone identifies with their own race more than another. It's human nature.

[b i o n i c]

so you do agree that racism/socio-economic discrimination may or does exist in american law enforcement?

[RobMoney$]

Yes.
It exists everywhere.

If I walked into a black-owned business and applied for a job, and I knew I was up against someone who is black for the position, I'd expect not to get the job.
It's natural for a black business owner to feel more comfortable with and trust another black person.
That goes for every race of people.

Is it fair?
Of course not.
Guess what...Life's not fair.

[Documad]

I hate stories like this because we will never know what happened, yet people cite to someone's version as if it's fact. The professor probably said some things he shouldn't have said (I'm guessing that because of my experience with professors, not because he's black -- it's my professor bias talking) and the cop probably didn't handle it well. He escalated when he should have de-escalated. The way this has been publicized -- the things that have been said from the professor's side -- make me more likely to believe that he said some dumb things at the time. It tends to happen when powerful people deal with cops from a position of no power. Lawyers tend to say really dumb things in confrontations with cops too.

I think I agree with Rob on this one -- But these are my words not his. I believe that cops tend to treat people differently based upon appearance and sometimes appearances are deceiving. I have been through all kinds of training and I try really hard not to draw conclusions from appearances and past experience but I still find myself doing it sometimes. I also think that a cop in that town who is faced with a middle aged black Harvard professor would tend to treat him better than he treats the average 18 year old white guy. I don't know anything about this particular cop though.

[DroppinScience]

Where was Mr Gates when the Jena Six incident was happening?
The Duke Lacrosse team alleged rape?
Michael Richards even?...NOTHING!

Perhaps the next time there is another Jena Six incident, Dr. Gates will fight as diligently for poor black men as he is fighting for himself.

You haven't heard of Henry Louis Gates Jr. before this headline, have you?

[Dorothy Wood]

I think that a distinguished Harvard University proffessor like Mr. Gates is likely to get much more respect than the average white man in most situations in society.
The idea that he's somehow the victim of the same racism that sends poor black men to prison simply doesn't fly with me, and Gates should be careful about exploiting the plight of black men across America to win his battle of egos with the Cambridge Police Department.

Stereotypical campus fuckface Harvard arrogance.

Where was Mr Gates when the Jena Six incident was happening?
The Duke Lacrosse team alleged rape?
Michael Richards even?...NOTHING!

Perhaps the next time there is another Jena Six incident, Dr. Gates will fight as diligently for poor black men as he is fighting for himself.

okay, first off, I think the man has a right to stick up for himself. secondly, he's not an activist, he's a historian.


Yes.
It exists everywhere.

If I walked into a black-owned business and applied for a job, and I knew I was up against someone who is black for the position, I'd expect not to get the job.
It's natural for a black business owner to feel more comfortable with and trust another black person.
That goes for every race of people.

Is it fair?
Of course not.
Guess what...Life's not fair.

I think what you've just said is pretty dangerous, and that you shouldn't say something like that unless you've actually heard of it happening or it's happened to you.

I used to work for a black business owner, who employed people of all races. where I teach, I was hired by a black woman, and I'm a teaching assistant to a black professor. and again, the school employees people of all races. the student body is mostly minorities.

I think you've got a really old-fashioned attitude about race and it's pretty sad to me.


anyway, I just watched Hardball and Chris Matthews read the police report and talked to two dudes about it (I'll link the clip when it goes up). It was pretty funny, the discussion that is...it kind of covered a lot of what's being said in this thread and the guys discussed it with level heads and kept emotion out of it and put some humor in.

Gates did act obnoxiously in my opinion. there's no disputing that. everyone made mistakes in this situation, but I can't see any reason at all why he should've been arrested.


I really wish I could read some witness accounts or something, to get the whole picture.

[Bob]

the whole picture.

those are rare

the media doesn't help

[Documad]

Yeah, it almost always comes down to the word of one person vs. the word of another person. We're more likely to have a video shot by some stranger than in the past but it's still rare and videos mislead too.

[Dorothy Wood]

I think that a distinguished Harvard University proffessor like Mr. Gates is likely to get much more respect than the average white man in most situations in society.
The idea that he's somehow the victim of the same racism that sends poor black men to prison simply doesn't fly with me, and Gates should be careful about exploiting the plight of black men across America to win his battle of egos with the Cambridge Police Department.





whoa whoa whoa, hold the phone here...how you gon' quote a brotha and not give him credit???


a portion of an opinion piece written by Dr. Boyce Watkins:

I might be kicked out of "The Black scholars club" for saying this, but the truth is that I don't feel sorry for Henry Louis Gates. America is far more capitalist than it is racist, so a distinguished Harvard University Professor like Gates is likely to get more respect than the average White American. The idea that he is somehow the victim of the same racism that sends poor Black men to prison simply doesn't fly with me, and Gates should be careful about appearing to exploit the plight of Black men across America to win his battle of egos with the Cambridge Police Department.


from http://www.thegrio.com/2009/07/i-am-not-al-sharpton.php

read it, it's a decent article that brings up a lot of important points and kind of bridges the gap between a bunch of us in here.

why rob decided to pass off a quote as his own to bolster his more divisive opinion instead of linking the whole article is beyond me.

[funk63]

police report (http://www.amnation.com/vfr/Police%20report%20on%20Gates%20arrest.PDF)
“The Sgt., along with the gentleman, were now on the porch of __ Ware St. and again he was shouting, now to the onlookers (about seven). “THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO BLACK MEN IN AMERICA”! The gentleman refused to listen as to why the Cambridge police were there. While on the porch, the gentleman refused to be cooperative and continued shouting that the Sgt. is racist police officer.”

Sounds like he was being a dick.

[b i o n i c]

I think racism is as old as man itself.
When we were writing on the walls of caves and we were forming tribes in order to survive, I'm sure man looked at members of his own tribe differently than members of another tribe.

It's unfortunate, but it's a fact that everyone identifies with their own race more than another. It's human nature.

well, yes. so is sexism.

the difference between us and early man or, say... animals... is that you / me / we have the potential ability to resist 'human' urges. some animals might have the urge to steal a weaker competitors food or mate, kill a rival over ownership of a tree or abandon their unhealthy or physically compromised offspring to survive.

our society generally looks down on adultery, theft and selfishness. your average parent would go against all survival instincts to protect a child.

what kind of world would we live in if everyone just submitted to human nature as a rule?

why should we accept racism?

and im not saying im like jesus christ or some crap like that, but i like to think im always a work in progress. i can be an asshole, just like anyone else. but at the very least, my assholeyness is unacceptable if im representing a larger institution.


Yes.
It exists everywhere.

If I walked into a black-owned business and applied for a job, and I knew I was up against someone who is black for the position, I'd expect not to get the job.
It's natural for a black business owner to feel more comfortable with and trust another black person.
That goes for every race of people.

Is it fair?
Of course not.
Guess what...Life's not fair.

no doubt it exists. and i couldnt agree with you more that life is not fair. believe me. but because unfairness exists, do you mean we should all just be unfair? because racist people exist, should we all just be racist? kinda like, 'if you can't beat em, join em?'

no one's perfect, of course. but we should kinda try to be as good as we can be, right?

I hate stories like this because we will never know what happened, yet people cite to someone's version as if it's fact.

we do know what happened.

I believe that cops tend to treat people differently based upon appearance and sometimes appearances are deceiving.

sure the world is unfair. sure there are always first impressions and things like that, but its kind of their job to be above that and use some sort of more evolved judgment which they are supposedly trained to do. would "treat<ing> people differently based upon appearance" be acceptable if we were talking about judges?

in my opinion, as the first line of the justice / law enforcement system this is unacceptable. i refuse to give anyone a pass for that when as stewards of the law they are being well paid to be fair. what may be acceptable behavior to some for a shopkeeper does not make the same behaviour acceptable for a public servant. they can submit to human nature all they want on their off hours i suppose.

[kaiser soze]

Four Score and seven years ago....oh wait, you might know that one too ;)

All the facts are still not in so I'm still on the fence with this one. Like I said....he should be happy that the police responded in a timely manner.

[Documad]

Sounds like he was being a dick.

I agree that the report makes it sound that way. Keep in mind that it was written by the cop, and that Gates and his attorney apparently deny it.



we do know what happened.
How? What is the absolute truth?



sure the world is unfair. sure there are always first impressions and things like that, but its kind of their job to be above that and use some sort of more evolved judgment which they are supposedly trained to do. would "treat<ing> people differently based upon appearance" be acceptable if we were talking about judges?

in my opinion, as the first line of the justice / law enforcement system this is unacceptable. i refuse to give anyone a pass for that when as stewards of the law they are being well paid to be fair. what may be acceptable behavior to some for a shopkeeper does not make the same behaviour acceptable for a public servant. they can submit to human nature all they want on their off hours i suppose.

I'd like to discuss this outside the facts of this case, because I don't know the facts of this case (even though you apparently do).

In general, cops should make assumptions and act on them. They need to constantly re-assess of course, and those assumptions shouldn't be based merely on race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., but they would be foolish to try and assess a situation without taking into account their past experiences. That would include past experiences with persons of different backgrounds.

[Dorothy Wood]

I just wanted to alert everyone to my previous reply, #69 (heh)

so that you don't miss out on reading an article with an interesting point of view. and also so you don't miss out on me catching rob plagiarizing. :cool:

[Documad]

You might be right about witnesses. If all those people were watching, maybe some of them will come forward. But I wouldn't if I were them given the media attention.

If the facts in the police report are true, then Gates could be guilty of disorderly conduct but I still don't think the cop should have arrested him. It was a waste of resources.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Look, I know that in general Wikipedia can be a reliable resource, but you are aware that there's a whole wealth of material outside of Wikipedia, right? My God, that's what a library is for. :rolleyes:

Yes I prefer primary sources over Wikipedia and other types of second hand accounts / opinions. Libraries are wonderful and I hope they are not replaced by online virtual systems. But we are straying off the topic...

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Obama weighs in on the Gates incident:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32092715/ns/us_news-race_and_ethnicity/

[RobMoney$]

Don'tcha just love Obama?

He prefaces his statement with, "I dont know all of the facts." and then says, "It is obvious that the Cambridge police acted stupidly."
Way to tell everyone you're uninformed about the issue and then proceed to give an uninformed opinion.

About par for the course, I'd say.

[RobMoney$]

All the facts are still not in so I'm still on the fence with this one. Like I said....he should be happy that the police responded in a timely manner.


Based on what is being reported - this is my understanding of what happened:

- Gates came home from a trip and was unable to get into his front door.
- Gates tried to gain access to the backdoor and was not successful.
- Gates with the assistance of his driver push open the front door
- Neighbor (Lucia Whalen) notices two men pushing their way into a house and calls the police
- Police arrive after Gates is already inside.
- Police call for Gates to step outside and identify himself
- Gates does not do this and yells, 'Is it because I am a black man in America?'
- Police enter the house
- Police ask for identification and Gates refuses initially saying 'Do you know who I am? You believe white women over black men. This is racial profiling'
- Gates finally produces a Harvard id card and police place a call with the Harvard police
- Gates continues to act out loudly (this is backed up by several eye witnesses)
- Gates is arrested by the police


I can't see how the police did anything other than "by the book".
The police recieved a report of two black men trying to force their way into a home.
When the police arrive on the scene they find one black man inside the home.
How is that racial profiling, as Gates was repoted to have been yelling?
It's not like the cops stopped a disproportionate number of black people and gave them tickets?



I'll offer this up to the critics of this story like Bionic and Dorothy,...

The police get a B&E call. What should they do when they arrive on the scene and find people inside the house?

[yeahwho]

Having had an incident happen in my life within the past 60 days eerily similar, I can say I was freaked when I knew the cop knocked on my door and was unsure if I was the perpetrator or homeowner, common sense took over and I cooperated, he told me why he was there, he said he had already walked around my place (he checked windows, doors etc.) then asked to see my ID.

Just as when I go to the bank, make a big purchase or get pulled over for driving higher than a motherfucking kite. I don't automatically assume there is a larger agenda. I think in a primal survival mode that something serious is happening and I should cooperate.

He said he waited until he was 58 years old before he got arrested.

I am white and I'd been down that road a dozen times before I was 21. Welcome to my World professor.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Based on what is being reported - this is my understanding of what happened:

- Gates came home from a trip and was unable to get into his front door.
- Gates tried to gain access to the backdoor and was not successful.
- Gates with the assistance of his driver push open the front door
- Neighbor (Lucia Whalen) notices two men pushing their way into a house and calls the police
- Police arrive after Gates is already inside.
- Police call for Gates to step outside and identify himself
- Gates does not do this and yells, 'Is it because I am a black man in America?'
- Police enter the house
- Police ask for identification and Gates refuses initially saying 'Do you know who I am? You believe white women over black men. This is racial profiling'
- Gates finally produces a Harvard id card and police place a call with the Harvard police
- Gates continues to act out loudly (this is backed up by several eye witnesses)
- Gates is arrested by the police


I can't see how the police did anything other than "by the book".
The police recieved a report of two black men trying to force their way into a home.
When the police arrive on the scene they find one black man inside the home.
How is that racial profiling, as Gates was repoted to have been yelling?
It's not like the cops stopped a disproportionate number of black people and gave them tickets?



I'll offer this up to the critics of this story like Bionic and Dorothy,...

The police get a B&E call. What should they do when they arrive on the scene and find people inside the house?

I disagree with your conclusions (also the presentation of the 'facts' are biased clearly on purpose to bolster your conclusions by the way). I think most people would agree that once the police determined that it was Gates' home they should have backed off immediately. Unless the US is now a police state where people do not have the right to be law abiding in their own private home. There is no evidence that Gates physically threatened the police. However one would hope that a person still has the right to tell the police to get the fuck off their property without getting arrested.

[yeahwho]

also, this was not in public. unless they're saying he was arrested in the middle of the street. even if he was, the incident began on private property.


I'm not taking Gates' lawyer's word completely and I'm not taking the cop's word either. both parties made mistakes, and it's an unfortunate situation. Calling Gates and elitist and accusing him of exploiting an average joe is laughable. what is his "cause" anyway? racial equality? ohhh, nooo!!!!!!


ugh, I am so annoyed with what you just said! :mad:

I'm no angel and trouble surrounded me for years. If someone has managed to make Professor Gates age and just this once found himself in a precarious position with the law, I'll be honest with you, white, black or green with cheese I cannot relate to that lifestyle.

Nobody was physically harmed during all of this. Here is what I'm gathering from all of the information I've gleamed so far...

This is a smaller issue than the media is making it out to be. They want to flame the racism issue and many are way too happy to oblige. It was more of a mistake than anything else.

[DroppinScience]

Yes I prefer primary sources over Wikipedia and other types of second hand accounts / opinions. Libraries are wonderful and I hope they are not replaced by online virtual systems. But we are straying off the topic...

The physical library won't be replaced by "online virtual systems" but even as the world becomes more and more digital, the library itself has responded with a lot of digital libraries, digitization initiatives, and so on and so forth. Thus the library will always be active in both the physical and the virtual world.

It's got nothing to do with anything, but just thought I'd point that out. :)

[Michelle*s_Farm]

The physical library won't be replaced by "online virtual systems" but even as the world becomes more and more digital, the library itself has responded with a lot of digital libraries, digitization initiatives, and so on and so forth. Thus the library will always be active in both the physical and the virtual world.

It's got nothing to do with anything, but just thought I'd point that out. :)

Cool avocados :)

Perhaps even more off the topic I want to suggest the following book which does tangentially deal with the politics of the digital world (sound and mostly its history). The author was interviewed the other day on BBC radio and he is a fountain of knowledge when it comes to recorded sound, its perception, history and politics.

For example:

I did not realise that the LP Nebraska was one of the first 'planned' lo-fi recordings, that Thomas Edison was a purist when it came to analog sound (e.g., the wax cylinder), that Les Paul experimented early on with layered recordings (pre two track), and finally that due to compressed dynamic range Californication sounds strange (i.e., the soft parts are as loud as the hard parts). Below is the citation:

Perfecting Sound Forever: An Aural History of Recorded Music: Greg Milner (2009)

http://www.amazon.com/Perfecting-Sound-Forever-History-Recorded/dp/0571211658

[Burnout18]

Based on what is being reported - this is my understanding of what happened:


- Gates finally produces a Harvard id card and police place a call with the Harvard police




Does anybody know if a harvard ID has an address of residence on it? Because, i have never seen a school ID with a home address on it.

If the id doesn't have an address, then yea i don't blame the cops for going on checking him out.

But Why else would he show his harvard ID if it didn't have an address on it other than to show off who he is. Here's a guy who spends his days lecturing ivy league kids, who prolly was so disgusted that a blue collar cop was bustin his balls, he prolly didn't know how to react.

[Burnout18]

Sgt Crowley was the first police officer to respond to the gym when Boston Celtic Reggie Lewis collapsed and died. Crowley attempted CPR but could not revive him.

He also won't apologize for the incident in question.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/07/23/officer_at_eye_of_storm_says_he_wont_apologize/

[Dorothy Wood]

ugh, I was really disappointed in what obama said.

at this point I think those guys just need to sit down with a mediator and apologize to each other, and then to america.

because now Crowley's going to be like some white hero that racists can rally around. even if that wasn't his intention. :(

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Below is great post from the Harvard Crimson newspaper website:

I'm baffled that disorderly conduct is an acceptable charge in this circumstance -- that is, when the alleged misconduct occurred in Gates's own home in the presence of police officers (and no others). In Commonwealth v. Mulvey 57 Mass. App. Ct. 579 (March 14, 2003), according to the Massachusetts District Attorneys Association:

"The defendant was charged with disorderly conduct for yelling and pacing on private property that was set back from the road in a secluded area. There was no one around at the time except police officers. While the statute requires that the disturbance be such that it had or was likely to have an impact upon people in an area accessible to the public, the presence of police officers alone will not suffice to prove the public element.

In reaching its decision, the Court noted that the rationale behind criminalizing disorderly conduct rests on the belief that a disorderly person can provoke violence in others. Given that an inherent part of police work involves being in the presence of distraught individuals, and given that police officers are trained to maintain order, the Court concluded that police should be the least likely to be provoked. Therefore, police presence alone does not satisfy the public element."

SOURCE: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=528584

[DroppinScience]

yep, i wouldn't be surprised if gates was jetlagged and miserable and being a dick to the cop, sgt. james crowley, who may have overreacted and thought to himself "i don't have to take this crap" and arrested him. then, his captain after reviewing this probably said "are you serious?" and the charges were dropped.

This is likely the most plausible scenario for how the situation went down. Even if Gates was indeed in the wrong, it couldn't have been that wrong since the charges were dropped almost immediately.

[yeahwho]

ugh, AI was really disappointed in what obama said.

at this point I think those guys just need to sit down with a mediator and apologize to each other, and then to america.

because now Crowley's going to be like some white hero that racists can rally around. even if that wasn't his intention. :(

WTF is Obama piping in for? Christ fix this fucked economy and make the middle east safe, let Gilligan and the professor be, they'll sort it out with all their new media and blog buddies.

Go back to wars and unchecked multi billion dollar handouts Obama.

[b i o n i c]

i agree, he should shut the fuck up about it

[yeahwho]

The most fucked up lie about this story is the one where both the arresting officer and the Harvard professor are being played by the media as well balanced normal dudes and neither of them have had any sort of animosity toward anybody ever.

That is a lie. Somebody is telling a whopper here. You don't have the fucking POTUS taking a moment out of his day over two normal citizens ordeal.

The professor has many connections and he is using every last card on the table. Is that normal?

The officer arrested him for being lippy and now finds even the fucking president of the USA is on his ass, still he doesn't want to apologize, is that normal?

Fuckers aren't normal fucking people.

[RobMoney$]

Go back to wars and unchecked multi billion dollar handouts Obama.


That's TRILLION dollar handouts, sir.


I know I've been one of Obama's most outspoken critics on here, but most of the time I'm criticizing his policies. I not usually critical of him personally.

But the fact that he, as POTUS, chose not to stand behind his civil servants when he admittedly was not aware of all the facts of the case causes me to lose a ton of respect for him as a man.
I can not think of another President who would have been capable of such a thing. Not even Bush.

[yeahwho]

That's TRILLION dollar handouts, sir.


I know I've been one of Obama's most outspoken critics on here, but most of the time I'm criticizing his policies. I not usually critical of him personally.

But the fact that he, as POTUS, chose not to stand behind his civil servants when he admittedly was not aware of all the facts of the case causes me to lose a ton of respect for him as a man.

I don't feel as strongly as you do about his speaking out on this case, but I do agree he did more damage than good and it is just the thing he tried to avoid during his campaign.

The republicans rightfully will have a heyday with this, his stature likely will unravel along with his poor decision to side on something savvy politicians wouldn't touch with a 10,000 foot pole.

It's really none of his business to speculate or judge the police department. It is also poor form to speak on behalf of someone he is acquainted with.

He needs to respond in a much more neutral tone immediately or risk credibility with one of the strongest unions in the United States.

[Dorothy Wood]

I'm mostly pissed that he got the facts about the story wrong, but then used highly judgmental terminology to describe the police. it was a big mistake. I don't even think the president should be using words like "stupid", ever.

I really just don't like perpetuation of false information. I can't stand it when someone speaks with authority about a situation without knowing all the details.

[yeahwho]

Rank & File 1+ "Cop who arrested black scholar is profiling expert (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j4S-r9G0m8HEq4JAFUw7_epFRb9QD99KF8S00)"

Elite Professor 1- "President: Harvard Professor's Arrest Highlights Race Inequities (http://abcnews.go.com/US/comments?type=story&id=8148986)"

Republicans had better start swooping in

[yeahwho]

It's very fluid out there,

Rush President Obama Comes Alive When the Topic Turns to Racism (http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_072309/content/01125111.guest.html)

Savage Nation
Boston Globe Scrubs Henry Louis Gates Arrest Report From Website (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2009/07/23/boston-globe-scrubs-henry-louis-gates-arrest-report-website)

Bill Cosby (that's right) Bill Cosby ’shocked’ at Obama’s statement on Harvard prof’s arrest (http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/07/23/bill-cosby-shocked-at-obamas-statement-on-harvard-profs-arrest/)

FoxNews Cambridge Cop, Disappointed in Obama's 'Stupidly' Comment, Refuses to Apologize (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/22/obama-says-police-acted-stupidly-harvard-professors-arrest/)

[yeahwho]

The Smoking gun Disorderly Conduct incident report (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html)with eyewitness testimony.

[RobMoney$]

at least his fellow officers (both black and white BTW) and his union are standing behind him and his decision not to apologize.

[Documad]

I don't want to cause trouble here, but did you notice that the police report was printed four days after the event? Sometimes cops dictate their report or type up the guts of the report at the end of their shits, and a secretarial type person puts it on the actual form later on, so it's possible that the officer dictated it right after the event. But the delay is sometimes cause for questions, because if he waited till the following Monday to write down what happened it wouldn't be fresh in his mind anymore. Did he write the report right after the event, or after the media shitstorm happened?

This has been going on for a week now and it needs to stop. Obama looks foolish and it diverted his health care juggernaut. Before this, he doing pretty well pointing out that the house republicans admitted to playing games with health care. I'm kind of glad that he committed his first big blunder.

By the way, I've got an icky feeling in my tummy about the health care juggernaut so I'm alright with the distraction.

[Documad]

at least his fellow officers (both black and white BTW) and his union are standing behind him and his decision not to apologize.

On paper, the guy sure looks like a solid officer and I thought that he handled the news bite well.

[yeahwho]

so... Obama doesn't regret 'acted stupidly' remark about Henry Gates Jr. arrest....

The President is not the Jr. Senator from Illinois anymore, and when he speaks on a topic, he's speaking to the Country and the World. It's arrogant and naive to say that "he can say whatever he wants to say". It's called diplomacy. Words mean something and regret means something. Clarity and composure mean something. Stupid? Really?

Obama is digging himself a hole, he needs to retract, reflect and reiterate

If he doesn't you will hear that soundbite over and over and over again. I'm amazed at how this story is playing out. It is being flamed by two factions, I bet Crowley voted for him, I also bet the majority of law enforcement and all civic employees voted for him.

He blew it. This is much larger than any story being followed and he blew it. Wow.

That is all I have to say about that.

[Bob]

oh for fuck's sake

the leader of the free world used literally one single objectionable word and now he's the worst president since hitler

you're all worse than sean hannity and glenn beck combined

yeah he pulled a boner but goddamn do you not think this is a mild overreaction to a mild overreaction to a story that shouldn't have been in the national news to begin with

the world has real problems, people

[Dorothy Wood]

crowley said he didn't vote for obama. but he says he supports him because he's the president or whatever.


I dunno, this whole thing is so out of hand. I watched a clip of crowley and he just seemed like a regular man, not a creep. he wasn't nervous and was straightforward with the interviewer.

again, I think both parties need to sit down and resolve the situation and come out to the public with a united front.

[yeahwho]

oh for fuck's sake

the leader of the free world used literally one single objectionable word and now he's the worst president since hitler

you're all worse than sean hannity and glenn beck combined

yeah he pulled a boner but goddamn do you not think this is a mild overreaction to a mild overreaction to a story that shouldn't have been in the national news to begin with

the world has real problems, people

I'm saying all of this from a supporters stance, a fan. What I'm seeing is a political flaw, nobody is paying attention to KIA #s (http://antiwar.com/casualties/list.php) or the $1.4 million spent daily by insurance corporations to screw us out of a single payer choice, because now the conglomerate of media outlets is obsessed with race.

His agenda is awash in this fucked up bitchfest.

[yeahwho]

again, I think both parties need to sit down and resolve the situation and come out to the public with a united front.

like they do in kindergarten

[yeahwho]

oh for fuck's sake

I expect some sort of respect for trying real hard to sound like Jesse Jackson with "he needs to retract, reflect and reiterate" that took me a full 30 seconds of thought

I'm hopelessly white

[yeahwho]

It's started (http://www.nrsc.org/200907233022/news/in-the-news/gop-questions-obamas-police-criticsm.html)

[b i o n i c]

this is exactly why the bammer should've kept his mouth shut.

shoulda known better than to give rope to people with short attention spans and selective memories.

[b i o n i c]

dumb.

[Bob]

i'm sure professor gates is pleased at the result of all of this

[b i o n i c]

the one thing i learned in this whole thing is that its natural for blacks to feel more comfortable with and trust other blacks and whites to feel more comfortable with and trust whites. also that everyone identifies with their own race more than another. its human nature.

thanks braaaack!

[RobMoney$]

OBAMA SPEAKS


President Obama today stood by his comments that the Cambridge, Mass., police department acted "stupidly" in its arrest of Henry Louis Gates, telling ABC News that the Harvard University professor should not have been arrested.
Share
President says he doesn't regret his criticism of Cambridge police department.

"I have to say I am surprised by the controversy surrounding my statement, because I think it was a pretty straightforward commentary that you probably don't need to handcuff a guy, a middle-aged man who uses a cane, who's in his own home," Obama said.

In an exclusive interview with ABC's Terry Moran to air on "Nightline" tonight, Obama said it doesn't make sense to him that the situation escalated to the point that Gates was arrested.

"I think that I have extraordinary respect for the difficulties of the job that police officers do," the president told Moran. "And my suspicion is that words were exchanged between the police officer and Mr. Gates and that everybody should have just settled down and cooler heads should have prevailed. That's my suspicion."

The president said he understands the sergeant who arrested Gates is an "outstanding police officer." But he added that with all that's going on in the country with health care and the economy and the wars abroad, "it doesn't make sense to arrest a guy in his own home if he's not causing a serious disturbance."

Watch "Nightline" Tonight at 11:35 p.m. ET for Terry Moran's full interview with President Obama

Sgt. James Crowley, who arrested Gates for disorderly conduct, and his union slammed the president today for his comments about the incident at Gates' house last week.

Obama "was dead wrong to malign this police officer specifically and the department in general," Alan McDonald, the lawyer for the Cambridge Police Superior Officers Association, told ABC News today.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=8153681&page=1


I'm sorry, but I really just can't stand Obama anymore.

I can't imagine what it must be like trying to be a cop and the stress that must put on you dealing with the dregs of society on a day to day basis, only to have that stress compounded exponentially when a well-respected and well-connected member of the community unjustly accuses you of being a racist, and his buddy, the President of the United fucking States comes out in support against you.

Officer Crowley is presenting a more dignified and professional position than even the President.
Pretty fucking sad.

[RobMoney$]

...

[RobMoney$]

the one thing i learned in this whole thing is that its natural for blacks to feel more comfortable with and trust other blacks and whites to feel more comfortable with and trust whites. also that everyone identifies with their own race more than another. its human nature.

thanks braaaack!


It's things like this that are helping keep racism alive and well.
I'm sure blacks and whites all love each other just a little more today because of all of this.


thanks braaaaaak, indeed.

[Documad]

yeah he pulled a boner but goddamn do you not think this is a mild overreaction to a mild overreaction to a story that shouldn't have been in the national news to begin with

Bob, you're right about all of it. I think it's because Obama hasn't set a foot wrong with the press since the election and he finally screwed up. That made this little story ten times more interesting.

But it's time to move on.

[DroppinScience]

oh for fuck's sake

the leader of the free world used literally one single objectionable word and now he's the worst president since hitler

you're all worse than sean hannity and glenn beck combined

yeah he pulled a boner but goddamn do you not think this is a mild overreaction to a mild overreaction to a story that shouldn't have been in the national news to begin with

the world has real problems, people

Thank you!

This self-righteous indignation is really tired by now, and I'm surprised you guys haven't collapsed from sheer exhaustion yet over who wants to out-Rush Limbaugh Rush Limbaugh.

Rather than demonize the police (which some have been doing here) or demonize Gates or professors in general (you know who you are), I'm going to give them both the benefit of the doubt. The two are most likely all-around decent men who acted out in fits of unreason and got the situation out of control and there's just no turning back. I don't think this is the place to hurl insults like "campus fuckface" left and right. Oh wait, I guess it is. But the level of discourse here is certainly appalling.

[b i o n i c]

the one thing i learned in this whole thing is that its natural for blacks to feel more comfortable with and trust other blacks and whites to feel more comfortable with and trust whites. also that everyone identifies with their own race more than another. its human nature.

thanks braaaack!

It's things like this that are helping keep racism alive and well.



lol, wait.... what? that was almost a verbatim quote of something you said a couple of pages back.. :confused:

[QueenAdrock]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=8153681&page=1


I'm sorry, but I really just can't stand Obama anymore.

I can't imagine what it must be like trying to be a cop and the stress that must put on you dealing with the dregs of society on a day to day basis, only to have that stress compounded exponentially when a well-respected and well-connected member of the community unjustly accuses you of being a racist, and his buddy, the President of the United fucking States comes out in support against you.

Officer Crowley is presenting a more dignified and professional position than even the President.
Pretty fucking sad.


"I have to say I am surprised by the controversy surrounding my statement, because I think it was a pretty straightforward commentary that you probably don't need to handcuff a guy, a middle-aged man who uses a cane, who's in his own home," Obama said.

"I think that I have extraordinary respect for the difficulties of the job that police officers do," the president told Moran. "And my suspicion is that words were exchanged between the police officer and Mr. Gates and that everybody should have just settled down and cooler heads should have prevailed. That's my suspicion."

I don't really get how that makes him an asshole. The facts of the case are, he was arrested AFTER he showed them his ID. So yes, I agree that you probably don't need to arrest a guy when it has been proven that he is in his own home.

Plus, Obama said he's got respect for officers, and said this particular officer is an "outstanding one" who made a bad decision this one time. I don't get how these comments are so infuriating.

[DroppinScience]

Plus, Obama said he's got respect for officers, and said this particular officer is an "outstanding one" who made a bad decision this one time. I don't get how these comments are so infuriating.

It's easy to get infuriated when you don't read the whole thing.

[b i o n i c]

the fact is he should've probably kept his opinion to himself and concentrated on more important issues. it wasnt productive in light of the much larger and more important issues he should be dealing with.

issues that really divide us.

and my whole thing with this isnt that gates was done the biggest injustice ever. people who dont want to see the truth will amplify opposing opinions to ridicule a series of facts that equal a sensible conclusion, making their own more ridiculous opinions seem sensible. this is just one example that gives the opportunity to discuss the larger issue.

the fact is that after rob said
it's a fact that everyone identifies with their own race more than another. It's human nature.

he responded to
so you do agree that racism/socio-economic discrimination may or does exist in american law enforcement?

and said
Yes. It exists everywhere.

If I walked into a black-owned business and applied for a job, and I knew I was up against someone who is black for the position, I'd expect not to get the job. It's natural for a black business owner to feel more comfortable with and trust another black person. That goes for every race of people.


which by extension i took to imply that rob and others believe that its natural for whites to feel more comfortable with and trust other whites.

since this is the kind of opinion that comes from someone who's defending the police, im not sure what to think of that. everyone has a right to feel however they want to feel, it is america after all. im not sure id be comfortable with knowing that some police might subscribe to that same line of thinking.

at the very least, we can agree that police can be / are unfair to some people based on race or class. with that concensus in place, i dont understand how anyone can wholeheartedly defend the police


im confused how i or anyone who point out the the injustice of these inequities is seen as divisive?


whatever, like i said at the beginning, most of the debates in here end up going in circles.

[Dorothy Wood]

who can even concentrate on racism when Sgt. Crowley is so dreamy?!

Sgt. Crowley is HOT! (http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/rnr/1286216082.html)

[Dorothy Wood]

okay, here, this is actually what I meant to post, just couldn't find it:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j4S-r9G0m8HEq4JAFUw7_epFRb9QD99KF8S00

For five of the past six years, Crowley also has volunteered alongside a black colleague in teaching 60 cadets per year about how to avoid targeting suspects merely because of their race, and how to respond to an array of scenarios they might encounter on the beat. Thomas Fleming, director of the Lowell Police Academy, said Crowley was asked by former police Lowell Commissioner Ronny Watson, who is black, to be an instructor.
"I have nothing but the highest respect for him as a police officer. He is very professional and he is a good role model for the young recruits in the police academy," Fleming said.




geez louise, I think now more than ever that this was just a huge misunderstanding and these dudes need to talk to each other so this whole thing can be over!

[kaiser soze]

I find it a bit odd that people bitch about Obama's statement but when bush made jokes about missing WMD's (not to mention the thousands of lives who were murdered for said WMD's) hardly anyone batted an eyelash

unbefuckinglievable

[Dorothy Wood]

I find it a bit odd that people bitch about Obama's statement but when bush made jokes about missing WMD's (not to mention the thousands of lives who were murdered for said WMD's) hardly anyone batted an eyelash

unbefuckinglievable


wait, you mean on here, or in the world and on t.v.?

I batted a billion eyelashes during bush's reign. I hate his guts. and plenty of people still protested him every single day he was in office.

don't act like you're the only one who disliked him.

it's okay to question leadership. obama exacerbated a situation that needed to be quashed. that's just a fact. you can't just stand up and vilify a whole town' police department when you're the president. I'm sorry, it's just not right.

and not because they're all, "wahh, obama doesn't like us." it's because now people are like, "grrr, I don't like obama".

[Documad]

Indeed. I know who I am.

[kaiser soze]

don't act like you're the only one who disliked him.



did I?

[yeahwho]

Does it ever occur to the President that Professor Gates acted stupidly? What criteria puts Harvard Professors on a different level than Police Officers?


Obama calls white policeman who arrested scholar (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g4TAbX5fIxkXoj9R_-Uldl6a8jygD99L06280)

Both are honest endeavors and I have to say each are Noble, but one of these professions means putting your life on the line everyday.

I do envision some sort of impasse or cooling down, Gates need to avoid a Gates Gate by simmering down his high intellect and just maybe admit that his insulting of Crowley doing his job was uncalled for. He wasn't arrested because he was Black. I've read about this enough to realize the reason his front door was barricaded was to prevent a break-in.

Our neighborhood has been hit by a series of daytime break-ins all year, 3 on my immediate block. This prompted me to buy a pretty fancy alarm system since I'm usually gone half a year.

This isn't about Obama bashing, the story started out as "Why the police must be watched closely" and I have to say in this case the Police acted accordingly. Especially after having an almost identical incident happen to myself.

[yeahwho]

Thank you!

This self-righteous indignation is really tired by now, and I'm surprised you guys haven't collapsed from sheer exhaustion yet over who wants to out-Rush Limbaugh Rush Limbaugh.

Rather than demonize the police (which some have been doing here) or demonize Gates or professors in general (you know who you are), I'm going to give them both the benefit of the doubt. The two are most likely all-around decent men who acted out in fits of unreason and got the situation out of control and there's just no turning back. I don't think this is the place to hurl insults like "campus fuckface" left and right. Oh wait, I guess it is. But the level of discourse here is certainly appalling.

The above comment is the without a doubt the most self indignant comment I've read on this thread so far.

uh... this is the hottest story on the internet, on the TV, on radio and in the papers here in the United States. Everybody is talking about it and everybody is a lot of people.

[yeahwho]

It's easy to get infuriated when you don't read the whole thing.

Saying the Cambridge police department, specifically Officer Crowley acted stupidly then not immediately retracting the statement but actually reaffirming it during a second news conference is political suicide.

I started a thread here December 18, 2007 saying I support Obama for our next president. Just like others here I donated, volunteered and voted for him.

I didn't expect him to say something as ignorant as what he did. He now must "mark my words" spend time on damage control. The republicans have begun an ad campaign with his "stupidity" remarks as the key focusof the ad. The conglomerate owned media is on fire.

Obama fucked up, I've read all of it.

[yeahwho]

This is the guy I voted for, now he's doing the right thing.

Crowley pleased by president’s phone call (http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/07/crowley_pleaded.html)

Will Professor Gates have anything positive to add to this?

[Dorothy Wood]

did I?


I don't know, you said nobody cared when bush said stupid things. but they surely did.

[saz]

The above comment is the without a doubt the most self indignant comment I've read on this thread so far.

uh... this is the hottest story on the internet, on the TV, on radio and in the papers here in the United States. Everybody is talking about it and everybody is a lot of people.

so according to that logic then, should we also be talking about american idol and dancing with the stars and other tabloid fodder?


Saying the Cambridge police department, specifically Officer Crowley acted stupidly then not immediately retracting the statement but actually reaffirming it during a second news conference is political suicide.

I started a thread here December 18, 2007 saying I support Obama for our next president. Just like others here I donated, volunteered and voted for him.

I didn't expect him to say something as ignorant as what he did. He now must "mark my words" spend time on damage control. The republicans have begun an ad campaign with his "stupidity" remarks as the key focusof the ad. The conglomerate owned media is on fire.

Obama fucked up, I've read all of it.

crowley was stupid for arresting gates, as the charges were dropped. and gates was stupid too for acting like a dick. this whole story is stupid, as well as all of the coverage it is receiving.

[RobMoney$]

I don't get how these comments are so infuriating.


...said the young lady with the Obama avatar.

[yeahwho]

I don't know, you said nobody cared when bush said stupid things. but they surely did.

It just seemed as if everything he said was stupid, so we did get blase' 'bout it after awhile. Eight years of mush mouthed presidenting statementer's wears you down.

[jennyb]

...this whole story is stupid, as well as all of the coverage it is receiving.

word.

[yeahwho]

so according to that logic then, should we also be talking about american idol and dancing with the stars and other tabloid fodder?

Sure, but since it's more entertainment than political post it in the Beastie free general discussion. (y)




crowley was stupid for arresting gates, as the charges were dropped. and gates was stupid too for acting like a dick. this whole story is stupid, as well as all of the coverage it is receiving.

The whole story is actually fascinating. If you simplify it down to cliff notes and take the main player (POTUS) out, it becomes stupid.

But of course you're above all of this and have posted nothing but criticism of those who have commented on it all along. You're sort of dick now that I think about it.

[RobMoney$]

I find it a bit odd that people bitch about Obama's statement but when bush made jokes about missing WMD's (not to mention the thousands of lives who were murdered for said WMD's) hardly anyone batted an eyelash

unbefuckinglievable


Yeah, Bush was hardly ever criticized at all in the media.
It was weird how none of the news networks or talk show hosts ever questioned him about WMD's.


:confused:

[kaiser soze]

I'm well aware he was criticized, I just feel the one instance where he made light of the WMD situation (The correspondents dinner) it didn't go viral....I don't even remember it being discussed much in the major news outlets.

oh well

[yeahwho]

Yeah, Bush was hardly ever criticized at all in the media.
It was weird how none of the news networks or talk show hosts ever questioned him about WMD's.


:confused:

I have to say even though we are both coming from ideologically opposed points of view you have conducted yourself extremely intelligently throughout this discussion, you have been more informed and on point than what I feel is the liberal's flaw of hiding their head in the sand when hypocrisy rears itself.

It's been nice to have someone willing to get it all out there in the open with on a real time topic that has galvanized most of the Nation this past few days.

Cheers.

[RobMoney$]

I've enjoyed the fact that I'm not standing alone on one side (the conservative side) of the debate while everyone else is lined up against me on the other (the liberal side).

There's much more balance on this topic than most and it's made for a better debate.
Even kaiser's been uncommonly even on this.

[QueenAdrock]

...said the young lady with the Obama avatar.

...which has been up for months and months, since I rarely change out my avatars since I don't give a crap once one is up. If you're trying to insinuate that I've got some kind of blinded Obama-love going on, try again.

Separate the man from the comments, and tell me how one MAN saying that Crowley is "outstanding" yet made a mistake and probably shouldn't have arrested a man within his own home after producing an ID is so infuriating.

[RobMoney$]

You posted a link that showed you appearing on your local Canadian news station campaigning for the man for crying out loud.

I don't recall you ever coming down on the opposite side of Obama on a single topic.

Face it, you two are his most staunch supporters here.
Either one of you guys posting a pro-obama opinion is about as predictable as it gets in here.

[QueenAdrock]

I have said that there are things I don't agree with him on. You just like to glaze over them and ignore it, and paint me in your mind to be his #1 fan because it suits your needs.

Regardless, you still fail to explain to me why his comments are so infuriating. You said you were mad, and then when he comes out and explains his comments and says that he in fact finds the cop to be "outstanding" you get even madder, and it makes no sense.

And me asking this doesn't make me "pro-Obama." There are two totally differing stories on each side, and it's a classic case of he said-she said, and I think it's stupid to say "Oh this side is absolutely right," if both of the accounts are completely different from one another. It's just picking one side over the other based on personal preference. I just simply asked why you're twice as pissed off after comments that weren't controversial, it was him clarifying.

[Documad]

QA: I like Obama in general and I have much respect for him, but I still think he was wrong to comment on this story. The president of the US shouldn't comment on local criminal proceedings period. It's even more wrong if he has personal connections to one of the parties. I guess he's called the cop to apologize so it's not an issue anymore.

If the professor and the cop actually meet with Obama at the White House to settle this I will be so fucking pissed off. The president should have better things to do. Good lord.

PS, once again, the Daily Show had the best coverage. :p

[saz]

But of course you're above all of this and have posted nothing but criticism of those who have commented on it all along. You're sort of dick now that I think about it.

i was criticizing the media's coverage of such a silly story, not criticizing those who have been commenting in this thread. seems to me though that you were criticizing droppin' though with the self-indulgent remark. anyways, i don't see the point in hurling insults and getting hostile.

[Bob]

PS, once again, the Daily Show had the best coverage. :p

i agree and was going to post the same thing but i forgot

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-july-23-2009/white-house-m-d- (skip to about 6:00)

i don't watch the daily show to get my news but i do watch it to get my news about the news

and as long as i'm posting daily show clips this rules too http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-july-23-2009/daily-colbert---universal-health-care

[RobMoney$]

I have said that there are things I don't agree with him on. You just like to glaze over them and ignore it, and paint me in your mind to be his #1 fan because it suits your needs.

Or maybe I think you're his #1 fan because you have an avatar of his logo and posted a video of you campaigning for him, like I already said.
What other conclusion would someone get about you, taking those things into account?
It has nothing to do with suiting my needs really.


Regardless, you still fail to explain to me why his comments are so infuriating. You said you were mad, and then when he comes out and explains his comments and says that he in fact finds the cop to be "outstanding" you get even madder, and it makes no sense.





What I said was that I lost respect for him as a man. I don't know how you interpreted that as my "getting mad"?
I can only conclude it's because you're just trying to spin this as me being some angry, loose cannon?

While you are correct that Obama did call the officer "outstanding", it's you who are the one "glazing over" the comment and using the "part that suits your needs".

This is the part of that statement that I found to be indefensible.

President Obama today stood by his comments that the Cambridge, Mass., police department acted "stupidly" in its arrest of Henry Louis Gates, telling ABC News that the Harvard University professor should not have been arrested.
President says he doesn't regret his criticism of Cambridge police department.


This is the POTUS after he had sufficient time to reflect on his comments.
Don't you find that shocking?
Do you think these comments are part of the solution, or are they contributing to being part of the problem?
Don't you realize what kind of impact this could potentially have on the Cambridge PD's ability to police their community?
Obama potentially just gave every black man in America a license to be disorderly when approached by a cop.
I seriously think that Obama may be the most egocentric President that we've ever had.
It's like every single thing that ever happens in the world somehow revolves around him and his worldview.

It's shocking to me that an educated person such as yourself would need this explained to you.
I mean you asked me, TWICE, why someone would find his comments so infuriating?
I can't understand how an intelligent person wouldn't be upset by them.


And me asking this doesn't make me "pro-Obama." There are two totally differing stories on each side, and it's a classic case of he said-she said, and I think it's stupid to say "Oh this side is absolutely right," if both of the accounts are completely different from one another. It's just picking one side over the other based on personal preference. I just simply asked why you're twice as pissed off after comments that weren't controversial, it was him clarifying.


You know when Chris Matthews takes a shot at Obama, there's a problem.
He said that Presidents have no business speaking out on police matters regardless the case, and Obama made a mistake speaking out on this one.

[RobMoney$]

The president of the US shouldn't comment on local criminal proceedings period. It's even more wrong if he has personal connections to one of the parties. I guess he's called the cop to apologize so it's not an issue anymore.



Ya think Obama may have influenced anyone by declaring the PD to have acted "stupidly"? LOLZ


A completely different level of WRONG that I hadn't considered.

[Documad]

i agree and was going to post the same thing but i forgot

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-july-23-2009/white-house-m-d- (skip to about 6:00)

i don't watch the daily show to get my news but i do watch it to get my news about the news

and as long as i'm posting daily show clips this rules too http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-july-23-2009/daily-colbert---universal-health-care
Yes, that's what I was thinking of. And I love that second clip. I love when they crack each other up and can't continue the bit.


Ya think Obama may have influenced anyone by declaring the PD to have acted "stupidly"? LOLZ


A completely different level of WRONG that I hadn't considered.

The good news is that they had dropped the charges before Obama's comment. At least I think that's the chronology.

[QueenAdrock]

Or maybe I think you're his #1 fan because you have an avatar of his logo and posted a video of you campaigning for him, like I already said.
What other conclusion would someone get about you, taking those things into account?
It has nothing to do with suiting my needs really.


And all those times I've criticized the president and you've attacked me for "flip flopping" on my support for him, you seem to forget. I have an avatar of the "That one" logo as a riff on McCain, and yes, I did campaign for him but that doesn't mean he was my number one Democrat I would have liked to see in office. Just like in 2004, I campaigned for John Kerry. There are other Democrats I like out there more, but sometimes they're not viable alternatives or unelectable. So no, I am not his #1 fan, but I was very passionate about getting a Democrat in the office to get some progress done, rather than having a third Bush term.



What I said was that I lost respect for him as a man. I don't know how you interpreted that as my "getting mad"?
I can only conclude it's because you're just trying to spin this as me being some angry, loose cannon?

You didn't say you lost respect. You said "I'm sorry, but I really just can't stand Obama anymore." In the article you posted up, he further explained his comments and gave a reasonable explanation as to why he feels that way, and so no, I didn't understand why at that point, you "couldn't stand Obama anymore," like that was the final straw.


This is the part of that statement that I found to be indefensible.


That's fine, if you don't agree with what he said or did, then that's understandable. I personally think he should have stayed out of it too. However, after I read that ABC explanation, I think he clarified his position a bit better and did some damage control. I didn't take that article as "Obama is stubbornly sticking to what he originally said," I took it as "Obama is trying to smooth over what he said by saying the officer was outstanding and just made a mistake," thus me asking you why you got upset by it. Since you obviously took the article in the first way, that explains that.



It's shocking to me that an educated person such as yourself would need this explained to you.
I mean you asked me, TWICE, why someone would find his comments so infuriating?
I can't understand how an intelligent person wouldn't be upset by them.



Sigh. I don't need anything explained to me, thanks. Like I said, I personally think he should have kept his personal opinion out of the situation. He's biased because he's friends with the professor. However, I asked you TWICE why you would be seemingly MORE pissed off after Obama has come out to explain his position, which you have answered.

For the record, I do agree with Obama that the man shouldn't have been arrested after producing his ID and that the cop did act stupidly by doing so, but I don't think it's Obama's place to interject on a national level.

[yeahwho]

i was criticizing the media's coverage of such a silly story, not criticizing those who have been commenting in this thread. seems to me though that you were criticizing droppin' though with the self-indulgent remark. anyways, i don't see the point in hurling insults and getting hostile.

I find it odd you quote me, but those quotes are a reference for something else altogether. I'm criticizing 0 input, no contribution other than statements such as "Out Rush Rush Limbaugh".

Every hour this story sat here it became more interesting and amazingly enough it ended up with the most powerful person on the planet earth taking not only a side, but calling the other side stupid.

That is far from boring, it is far from silly, it's fucking amazing and really a blast to be part of it with those who participated, not only here but Nationally as it happened.

[Schmeltz]

Others have made the point already, but I'll agree that Obama has definitely made a misstep here, and not just for sticking an unwarranted federal nose into what should have fizzled out as a local non-issue. The elephant in the room, the ugly subtext to this thread, is the race card, and in these terms I really feel that Obama chose the wrong battle this time. He's set a very unstable precedent by involving his office in a thorny question at the wrong time - this isn't back-of-the-bus material and never would have been if he hadn't decided to step outside the boundaries of his position. Being the President is a position that should transcend racial boundaries, not pander to their lingering echoes, and being the first black President doesn't mean that he should intervene on the behalf of every black leader caught in a compromising position. I would much rather have seen Obama come down on the side of civil equality, than to see him make such a clumsy and ideological gaffe. It's his pretzel moment, or as close as he's come so far.

I'd also like to say that I too am very pleased to read over the variety of opinions so well expressed in this thread without the enmity and backbiting we sometimes see here. Surely we can all express our opinions without being useless dicks, like some people I could mention, whose names start with v and end with alvano.

[yeahwho]

LOL! Gates agrees to beer with Obama, policeman
Black Harvard scholar ‘happy to oblige’ in peace-making effort! (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32144000/ns/us_news-race_and_ethnicity/)

Obama's enemies and naysayers have just been trumped, best Americana photo op I can even think of in recent history, let alone the history of the Nation!

I Love It!!!!

[RobMoney$]

This whole thing is so weird.
Once I realize I've done something completely and utterly stupid I usually pray that people forget about it as well.
I'm fortunate in that it usually doesn't become a national issue.
And it's usually when I wake up with a hangover and realize how drunk I was when I committed the idiotically stupid act.

I wonder if Gates was drinking on the way back from China.....



It's fortunate that Officer Crowley has an outstanding history as it pertains to race relations or he'd be chum.

[Dorothy Wood]

LOL! Gates agrees to beer with Obama, policeman
Black Harvard scholar ‘happy to oblige’ in peace-making effort! (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32144000/ns/us_news-race_and_ethnicity/)

Obama's enemies and naysayers have just been trumped, best Americana photo op I can even think of in recent history, let alone the history of the Nation!

I Love It!!!!


yay! beer! they should go bowling!

[Dorothy Wood]

It's fortunate that Officer Crowley has an outstanding history as it pertains to race relations or he'd be chum.


*record scratch*

um, what?

[RobMoney$]

Officer in Henry Gates flap tried to save Reggie Lewis (http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20090722cop_who_arrested_henry_gates_im_not_apolog izing/srvc=home&position=0)

Crowley teaches racial profiling class at academy (http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1186708)


“Former police commissioner Ronny Watson, who is a person of color, hand-picked Sgt. Crowley. ...
I presume because he would be the most qualified and most professional.
He’s a very good instructor.
He gets very high reviews by the students.”

Watson, who is black, is the former Cambridge police commissioner


The fact that he was picked by a black police commissioner to teach a class on how to prevent racial profiling pretty much left Gates and Obama with not much of an option but to back off of this and do damage control.



Also, I think giving mouf 2 mouf to an already deceased black man automatically gives you a "get out of racist accusation" card 4 lyfe. :rolleyes:

[RobMoney$]

Is it me or what? I just don't understand this quote by Obama...

during his Friday remarks, Obama said he hoped the controversy surrounding Gates' arrest provides Americans with "a teachable moment" on how they can improve "relations between police officers and minority communities."


What is "teachable" about this situation and why is race brought up, YET AGAIN?
To me it seems like Obama still sees this as a racial motivated arrest.

So Obama realizes his friend the Civil Rights activist is way off base, so Obama's willing to concede that maybe "both sides" were off base?
Cops can't get a win, just a tie at best.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

...just maybe admit that his insulting of Crowley doing his job was uncalled for. He wasn't arrested because he was Black.

...the story started out as "Why the police must be watched closely" and I have to say in this case the Police acted accordingly. Especially after having an almost identical incident happen to myself.

I am fine with defending the police -- they are treated poorly (and often are). Nonetheless, not watching police behaviour and the politicians that control their mandate (the real culprits?) would be a huge mistake by the citizens of the world. I mean the police sometimes harass, beat and kill minorities and protesters, and disturbingly control our behaviours in ways that are unethical and immoral. There are loads of examples and I think we ignore the lessons of history at our own peril. The facts are that even if Gates mouthed off to the cops due to a misperception on his part he was within his constitutional right to do so and there was no good reason to arrest him in his own home because he mouthed off. Once the officer determined that Gates was who he said he was he should have left Gates alone. Arresting him just worsened the situation. It is not right to arrest people for no reason or just to get back at them because they mouthed off at you. Do you want to live in a country where you cannot tell a cop that you perceive to be bullying you to fuck off?

I would hope that when falsely accused by a cop that the you are not the person who lives legally in your home, and you tell them to fuck off they cannot retaliate by arresting you. Do you want that not to be the case?

As Bob Mould once wrote: "Everybody's an authority in a free land".

[Michelle*s_Farm]

The Smoking gun Disorderly Conduct incident report (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html)with eyewitness testimony.


Great find -- thank you.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

I hope everyone agrees that people should not be arrested for impoliteness toward police officers. For example calling them homophic or racist even when you are incorrect. The fact that Gates was arrested is proof enough that the police officer allowed his emotions to cloud his judgment. What drove this loss of control is unknown (could have been a deep seated resentment against powerful black men, academics in general, dominant men, or people who are outspoken). As interesting as it is speculating on what caused his poor judgment (likely in part Gates' agitated behaviour), police should not arrest people for being outspoken on their own property (or during peaceful protest in my opinion) -- it is simply wrong.

[yeahwho]

I would hope that when falsely accused by a cop that the you are not the person who lives legally in your home, and you tell them to fuck off they cannot retaliate by arresting you. Do you want that not to be the case?



I think we're very much on the same page. I had my own bias on this story which of course is always easier to spot after reflection and more reading. My bias wasn't of a racial matter, but more of a class distinction matter. I wrongly labeled Gates as an elitist. The more I've read about the man I realize he is a genius, quite brilliant and far from being an elitist. Not all college professors are elitist nor or all civil servants "joe the plumber" morons.

I do believe both made tactical errors. Re-reading the police report I realize officer Crowley repeatedly asks Mr. Gates to leave his residence and step onto his front porch. He was baiting Gates while gates was berating him. When Gates did step out onto his porch after it was established this was his home, Crowley arrested him for Disorderly Conduct, because it would be pretty fucking impossible to arrest a man inside his home for disorderly conduct and make it stick.

It was ugly and yes shit gone horribly wrong happens every week in America because of overzealous/improper policing.

[yeahwho]

Cops can't get a win, just a tie at best.

He gets to go to the White House and drink free beer with the President and a College Professor. He also has a place in history that turns out positive that his family will cherish forever.

I would say Officer Crowley did win and in the end perhaps we all get a win/win out of this.

[Dorothy Wood]

for fuck's sake rob, you're so racist you don't even know you're racist.

[RobMoney$]

I do believe both made tactical errors. Re-reading the police report I realize officer Crowley repeatedly asks Mr. Gates to leave his residence and step onto his front porch. He was baiting Gates while gates was berating him. When Gates did step out onto his porch after it was established this was his home, Crowley arrested him for Disorderly Conduct, because it would be pretty fucking impossible to arrest a man inside his home for disorderly conduct and make it stick.

It was ugly and yes shit gone horribly wrong happens every week in America because of overzealous/improper policing.


Baiting,...What?


The police are responding to an unsubstantiated report of a break in by two, count them two black males.
Crowley arrives on scene unsupported, and sees a front door that has, even according to the Professor, been forced and the lock broken such that the professor is calling for a repair.
The Cop, still alone now has substantiation of the initial report.
Maybe he does have burglers. You know, criminals with maybe burgler tools like pry bars, screw drivers, screen and glass cutters, or weapons.
The tools of the trade so to speak.

The cop looks in and sees one man with a story.
The cop wants to identify the man. For officer safety he wants the man to step outside where, if he is a burgler, he will be unable to maybe grab a gun, knife, or pry bar he had secreted around the home as the officer approached.
This is within the officer's training and within the law to issue this lawful order.
Remember too that there is another yet unaccounted for man loose that the officer is concerned with.
The house is a potential trap where he can get killed.

The Professor gives him lip.
He gets loud, belligerent, and is uncooperative.
He failed to obey a lawful order. This is a crime in many jurisdictions.
He is loud, offensive, disruptive and is delaying identifying persons and even locating the second person, a very dangerous act.

If this happened in Pennsylvania, he absolutely would have been charged and I would suggest had he fought the charge he would have lost. Perhaps one of the legal professionals who post here such as Bob or Doc will be able to back me up on this.

Now, was this necessary? I do not think so.
The officer has discretion and not every misdemeanor has to be charged. Even had it been charged would I have wanted the officer to take the gentleman into custody, no.
Again there the officer has discretion.
Although I'm sure officers choose, when they sense contempt, to not exercise that discretion.

Yes the Professor got heated and was a jackass, and technically he committed a crime, but it was not much of a crime. Good policing here, good explanations, restraint of emotions could have resolved the matter without charges or ugliness.


Had I been the Professor my response would have been along these lines.

Hands raised and in plain sight as I was slowly stepping towards the porch where the officer wanted me:
"I am Professor Gates. This is my home. I have just returned from oversees.
My door has been broken but you will find my I.D. in my back pocket and My key to the back door on the kitchen table next to my flight bag.
You will also see my picture taken with the President, on the wall of the den.
Would you like me to reach for my wallet to show you my I.D. or will you?"

The situation would have been fine in seconds adn he would have been obeying the order.
Once the initial uncertainty had passed and the scene been stabilized the professor, if he felt he needed to comment on the officer's behavior could have then very calmly and easily obtained the officer's information.

I'm sure cops always get the "name and badge number" routine from assholes.
All people need to do is calm down enough to read, as the officers wear name tags and badges with their number clearly displayed.
I bet Crowley had identifying information right there on his uniform but the harvard professor, a literate man, was not really interested in the info.
He was interested in doing what he thought would put him in controll of the situation. He was hoping to bring the officer up short.
He thought that demand was a threat to the officer.
Inherent in the snotty demand is the supposition that the officer is in the wrong and will be reported to his superiors for discipline.

Again, I do not think it was necessary to cuff the professor.
There was no need for a custodial arrest.
The professor could have been served a summons and released on scene. The officer could even have ignored the minor technical violation of the law.
I would have preferred he did so.
The officer, however, let the situation control him some and that was wrong and his mistake.
He placed a tired, elderly man in cuffs and dragged him to the station and improperly charged the professor.
That's bad police work in the end after doing things right throughout most of the encounter.

Had I been the cop I would have announced that:
"We have a report of a break in. I need to identify everyone in the house and secure the scene.
We need your cooperation if you are the owner of the home.
Step on to the porch where I can see you better and can identify you.
This will only take a minute and I appreciate your cooperation."
A little respect and explanation up front may have gone a long ways to preventing the situation.

[Documad]

Do you want to live in a country where you cannot tell a cop that you perceive to be bullying you to fuck off?

Yeah, I'm fine with that. Just so you know, you probably can't yell "fuck you" at anyone in front of someone else without risking a disorderly conduct charge. Most of the time, cops ignore minor violations of the law--like speeding and jaywalking. But technically it's against the law and you can be charged. Again, I think it's a waste of resources in a case like this unless the guy was really disturbing his neighbors. But I wouldn't yell "Fuck you" at a cop, bartender, security guard, etc. There are better options.

[RobMoney$]

He gets to go to the White House and drink free beer with the President and a College Professor. He also has a place in history that turns out positive that his family will cherish forever.

I would say Officer Crowley did win and in the end perhaps we all get a win/win out of this.


This thing sounds a bit condescending.

"I am pleased that he, too, is eager to use my experience as a teaching moment, and if meeting Sgt. Crowley for a beer with the president will further that end, then I would be happy to oblige,"
Gates said in a statement on TheRoot.com, an Internet newsletter he edits.

Teaching moment?

I imagine Gates plans on doing teaching (with Obama as his TA).
I'm not sure yet (I'm sure there's a comment clarifying somewhere), but I'd bet he means racial profiling.
This will be a chance for a couple of educated men to sit down with a dumb cop to further educate him on the dangers of racial profiling, as well educate the public.

I have a feeling that Gates plans on continuing the same lesson he was trying to teach on his front porch (this time, in a different tone, to a much broader audience).

There are many ways to use this episode as a "teaching moment", I can't imagine how any of those involve Gates doing the teaching.

They are bringing Crowley to be taught something. From this experience, there is only one thing he (possibly) needs to be taught: How to better control the situation when dealing with a deranged, out-of-control, old man who's being verbally abusive and making threats.
I assure you that's not on the lesson plan.

It's a shame Crowley has to accept this invitation.
He's going to be made out to be dumb redneck and the condescending tones in all of this will still make him out to be a racist (if these two men are saying this is a teaching moment regarding racial profiling).

Again, I have no problem with the idea, but it's very likely that rhetoric leading up to this event will defeat the entire purpose
(well, not for Gates and Obama).



BTW,
Here are a few of the headlining stories from Gates' TheRoot.com

Obama finally sounds like a Black Man (http://www.theroot.com/views/obama-finally-sounds-black-man)


Why Obama Did Not, Should Not apologize to Officer Crowley (http://www.theroot.com/views/why-obama-did-not-should-not-apologize-officer-crowley)



...and this one is my favorite
Please, Professor Gates (http://www.theroot.com/views/please-professor-gates)


In an interview with The Root, after the ordeal of his arrest in his home in Cambridge, this week Harvard professor (and The Root’s editor-in-chief) Henry Louis “Skip” Gates Jr. announced his intention to make a PBS special about race and the criminal justice system. It would bring welcome attention to an important and still underreported issue.
Although Gates’ experience has been described as racial profiling, the problem of race and the criminal justice system is more complex. It includes police brutality (including the increasing and sometimes deadly use of Tasers), disparate sentencing, poor prison conditions, harsh and often racially disparate sentencing, and a range of barriers to the reintegration of ex-offenders. Any one of these issues would benefit from a thoughtful PBS special, especially one with the scholarly imprimatur of a Gates production.


Again I ask, how was this racial profiling?
The police recieved a report of two black men forcing their way into a home (that had already been recently broken into BTW).
Crowley arrives on the scene to find one black man.

How is this racial profiling?

[yeahwho]

Baiting,...What?

Wow, you must be pretty disappointed that this is going to work out in President Obama's favor. All I am saying is if Gates stays in his house and never steps outside of his house disorderly conduct is not going to fly. Crowley seems like a reasonably intelligent man, he had him step outside his house. That is fucked up.

Crowley knows he cannot enter the house and arrest him for the same crime, he fucking knows this... he has proven he is smarter than the average cop.

[yeahwho]

This thing sounds a bit condescending.

"I am pleased that he, too, is eager to use my experience as a teaching moment, and if meeting Sgt. Crowley for a beer with the president will further that end, then I would be happy to oblige,"
Gates said in a statement on TheRoot.com, an Internet newsletter he edits.

Teaching moment?



What the fuck is wrong with remaining teachable? I have learned plenty through this incident. I do not find this to be a condescending statement nor do I see anything but good coming out of the incident.

Do you think Obama is going to encourage black people to resist police investigations? I don't think so.

[Documad]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, and I'm not sure about the various reports, but I read the officer's report as saying that Gates yelled at him inside the house and that the officer called other officers and then went outside where those officers were. I can see why an officer would want to be outside at that point, where other officers might be of help, instead of remaining alone inside the house with a person who is yelling at him. I read it as Gates continuing to yell at the officer outside of the house, rather than the officer trying to entrap him. Maybe I'm putting things together that aren't there, but that was my impression. :confused:

I nearly threw up my dinner last night after hearing that this was going to be a teaching moment at the white house -- both because I think the president ought to have better things to do and because I don't know what he's hoping to teach. Maybe we all learned that when we are faced with conflicting/uncertain facts, we see what we want to see, or what we expect to see.

[yeahwho]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, and I'm not sure about the various reports, but I read the officer's report as saying that Gates yelled at him inside the house and that the officer called other officers and then went outside where those officers were. I can see why an officer would want to be outside at that point, where other officers might be of help, instead of remaining alone inside the house with a person who is yelling at him. I read it as Gates continuing to yell at the officer outside of the house, rather than the officer trying to entrap him. Maybe I'm putting things together that aren't there, but that was my impression. :confused:

I nearly threw up my dinner last night after hearing that this was going to be a teaching moment at the white house -- both because I think the president ought to have better things to do and because I don't know what he's hoping to teach. Maybe we all learned that when we are faced with conflicting/uncertain facts, we see what we want to see, or what we expect to see.

Crowley told Gates to come outside because the acoustics of the foyer combined with his yelling made it hard to hear him. Of course Gates was yelling "Whats your name and badge number" I think a little more than acoustics came into play.

I think the teachable line is just an excuse, Obama seems to be a beer drinking fanatic and at this point in his Presidency any excuse to knock off a Colt 45 will have to suffice.

[Whatitis]

The most disturbing thing about this story is "why, because I'm a black man in America?" That line alone thrusts racism twards the officer that he has to defend right off the bat. Gate +1 officer -1 without knowing anything about the two individuals. Why couldn't Gates cooperate with the officer? Because he did not want to. Plain and simple or else he would have provided what the officer wanted, which was only an I.D. and cooperation. Gates could have provided but chose to make the situation worse by his actions. Now, I do not agree with how the officer got Gates to come out of his house to arrest him but it is safe to say that if Gates cooperated it would not have escalated to what it did. Rob is right. If the officer had any flaws to his record he would have been chum, would have been blasted by the media, would not have been invited for a beer at the White House...It sickens me how people can use race to cloud a situation. I've had it happen to me through work and I treat everbody the same but because I could not do what the customer wanted me to do I was told by him it was because he was black. Which was the furthest from the truth. Racism is the ultimate trump card for those that like to exploit it.

[Dorothy Wood]

I don't really like the "teachable moment" term, but I think it's important that both parties reconcile so that everybody can learn something.

I think Gates needs to admit that he reacted poorly to the situation, but that he reacted that way because there is a problem with racial profiling by police. Just this time maybe, he jumped the gun and assumed too quickly that that was what he was a victim of.

and Crowley needs to admit that he let his emotions get the better of him.

[RobMoney$]

Wow, you must be pretty disappointed that this is going to work out in President Obama's favor. All I am saying is if Gates stays in his house and never steps outside of his house disorderly conduct is not going to fly. Crowley seems like a reasonably intelligent man, he had him step outside his house. That is fucked up.

Crowley knows he cannot enter the house and arrest him for the same crime, he fucking knows this... he has proven he is smarter than the average cop.


You do realize that it's perfectly legal for a police officer to direct you to step outside and identify yourself, and that it is a crime to disobey that order.
If a police officer issues a lawful order and you do not comply creating a risk of a violent or disorderly situation arising, then yes, you have committed a crime.

I just don't buy your "baiting" theory.

As I stated before, Crowley being the only police officer on scene at the time, responding to a report of TWO black men attempting a break-in was asking Gates to step outside for both his own safety and the safety of Gates.

What if there were intruders still in the home?
Officer Crowley had located ONE man. He still needed to locate or get information regarding the second individual, who we now know was the driver who had already left the residence.

[Dorothy Wood]

SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP

[RobMoney$]

Nah.

Seriously tho Dorothy, what's your fucking problem?

[RobMoney$]

It sickens me how people can use race to cloud a situation. I've had it happen to me through work and I treat everbody the same but because I could not do what the customer wanted me to do I was told by him it was because he was black. Which was the furthest from the truth. Racism is the ultimate trump card for those that like to exploit it.

I for one, can't wait until whites are the minority in America so I can blame all my problems on racism.

Doing 80 in a 50,...punk cop knows he pulled me over because I'm white.

Try to return my opened video game at Best Buy without a reciept and the bitch-ass says he only wants to give me store credit,...OH WHY, BECAUSE I'M WHITE? You know they give cash to everyone else.

They can't keep the white man down.




I'll bet you one dollar that if we took the professor out of his swanky Haavaad provided home and put him through police academy training, that he'd make an unlawful arrest within 6 months.
That's a "teachable moment" I'd be interested in seeing

[b i o n i c]

im repeating these things because either you don't get why they're offensive or you don't care that they are..

you said:
it's a fact that everyone identifies with their own race more than another. It's human nature.

which, frankly... almost by definition.. is a racist point of view. are you saying everyone else in the world is racist and you're not? either way it's either a pretty prejudiced or at least kinda racist thing to say. then i asked you:

so you do agree that racism/socio-economic discrimination may or does exist in american law enforcement?

and you responded:
Yes. It exists everywhere.

If I walked into a black-owned business and applied for a job, and I knew I was up against someone who is black for the position, I'd expect not to get the job. It's natural for a black business owner to feel more comfortable with and trust another black person. That goes for every race of people.

which in itself is a statement that expresses some sort of racism and by implication means that you believe a white person feels more comfortable with and trusts another white person more than anyone of another race. even if you don't believe what you intentionally or unintentionally implied with, using that statement in defense of police actions is just kind of... off. by stating that as your point of view, at the very least, you've pointed the finger at yourself. you said it.

and you agreed that there is racism and socio-economic discrimination in law enforcement... why are you defending it so blindly then?

Also, I think giving mouf 2 mouf to an already deceased black man automatically gives you a "get out of racist accusation" card 4 lyfe. :rolleyes:

ebonics, haha. anywhere else... whatever.

but what are you trying to say by using it in this conversation? are you trying to show that you're, like, 'with the kids' and you 'get it' or are you trying to say that anyone who is black, like prof. gates in this conversation, and has made an 'accusation of racism' is whatever it is that ebonics represents to you?

not to mention implying the sentiment that, as a white person, giving "mouf 2 mouf" to a black man takes even more effort and should be perceived as more heroic than doing so for another white person? i dunno, a lot of people could certainly take it that way

'not only was he dead... HE WAS BLACK! someone build that guy a statue!' i don't know, i don't get it.

some of these things in themselves might not be so terrible maybe, but when you add it all up, they smell kind of racistey.

and just a little funny thing..

Had I been the cop I would have announced that:
Step on to the porch where I can see you better and can identify you.


i really hope i missed something..

'step on the porch so i can see you better?' really? you would've said that? did i miss the part of the report where it said there was no electricity in the house? no windows? really? 'the better to see you with!'

"my, what a big posse you've got outside!" said gates.
"the better to fuck you with, come out!" said sgt. crowley

you've got a right to not feel as comfortable with or trust me more than any other 'white' person. you've got a right to not identify with me just because i'm 'not white' to you. if that's not a divisive point of view, i don't know what is.

i understand that you accept racism as part of human nature. and i suppose you have the right to defend police (the bad cops AND the good cops) with that type of rationale. but you're not really doing anyone any favors. and im not sure the good cops or even the bad ones would appreciate being spoken for with those kinds of assumptions.

im just saying this in case you really are confused about why anyone would have a problem with your stance on this issue. i won't speak for everyone, but these things might have something to do with it.

what is it? i've had a lot of bad experiences and i can still say that not all cops are bad. have you had that many bad and not so many good experiences with black people?

to be clear, im pretty sure you're not the worst person in the world just because of this and im pretty sure youre great to people you care about. but here, im a little offended, but moreso - im concerned with how some people may interpret and perhaps propagate these points of view.

come on, mang


dassit, yo.. ive spent waaay too much time on this thread.

[Dorothy Wood]

Nah.

Seriously tho Dorothy, what's your fucking problem?

basically everything that bionic just pointed out.

and how you've got such a big boner over this whole thing. it's disgusting, you're like sitting there sweating, dick in hand, just mulling over every fucking detail, putting yourself there, saying what you would do, acting like you were there.

yeah yeah, fuck the black man, he's been bringing you down so hard all your fucking life, you just can't get break. and now, finally, the image of the successful educated black man is broken down so we can all really see! it's all a farce, their success is at the expense of the poor white man! they built their lives on the backs of white people and now they've been caught!

it's you vs. the world, robbie, and you've got all the answers, your life is the best, your way is the best, YOU ARE THE BEST!

everyone else is just garbage.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Post below.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Had I been the Professor my response would have been along these lines.

Hands raised and in plain sight as I was slowly stepping towards the porch where the officer wanted me:
"I am Professor Gates. This is my home. I have just returned from oversees.
My door has been broken but you will find my I.D. in my back pocket and My key to the back door on the kitchen table next to my flight bag.
You will also see my picture taken with the President, on the wall of the den.
Would you like me to reach for my wallet to show you my I.D. or will you?"



Sure this would have probably worked perfectly. The only problem is that the police and the government do not train us to conduct ourselves this way. Indeed they do not tell us how to be careful with dealing with police officers. Perhaps it is common sense. But I think the fact remains that people get annoyed at the police (or anyone for that matter) when we are accused of doing something wrong when we have not. Being uncooperative is usually the first response by the person falsely accused. The false accuser likely responds uncooperatively in response and the situation escalates further. It is a shame. Since the police officer counter-intuitively is the person who officially 'controls' the situation, he or she must use caution to avoid escalation. Escalation is costly and in some cases could have lead to nasty short and long-term consquences (e.g., such as violence then or later).

I have not been following what Obama is doing with this situation, but if he is trying to reconcile both parties this seems like a sage move. Even symbolic reconciliation between Gates and Crowley would likely prevent any chance of rioting over this issue or seemingly related future events. Rioting is not good for anyone and it is surprising how quick a riot develops due to strange combinations between injustice, emotion and misperception. Surely it is wiser to resolve and move on from this relatively minor situation now rather than allow it to escalate into relatiatory aggression, race riots etc.

Granted it may seem far-fetched that a race riot could emerge from such a seemingly trivial situation (afterall the charges were dropped by the City of Cambridge). However imagine two weeks from now a young black man is beaten by white police officers in a large American city. Some people may connect the two events and the combination could lead to general unrest rather quickly (e.g., I am thinking about Rodney King and LA riots in the 90's). De-escalation and reconcilation is often the best option in these sort of situations. Maybe Oabama is making a good move here.

[Schmeltz]

Seriously tho Dorothy, what's your fucking problem?

I for one, can't wait until whites are the minority in America so I can blame all my problems on racism.

Doing 80 in a 50,...punk cop knows he pulled me over because I'm white.

Try to return my opened video game at Best Buy without a reciept and the bitch-ass says he only wants to give me store credit,...OH WHY, BECAUSE I'M WHITE? You know they give cash to everyone else.

They can't keep the white man down.

I think you may have answered your own question there, Robmoney. As bionic has very aptly pointed out, the "problem" is that your comically antiquated racism makes it difficult for anyone to take your perspective seriously.

[Burnout18]

Sure this would have probably worked perfectly. The only problem is that the police and the government do not train us to conduct ourselves this way. Indeed they do not tell us how to be careful with dealing with police officers. Perhaps it is common sense. But I think the fact remains that people get annoyed at the police (or anyone for that matter) when we are accused of doing something wrong when we have not. Being uncooperative is usually the first response by the person falsely accused. The false accuser likely responds uncooperatively in response and the situation escalates further. It is a shame. Since the police officer counter-intuitively is the person who officially 'controls' the situation, he or she must use caution to avoid escalation. Escalation is costly and in some cases could have lead to nasty short and long-term consquences (e.g., such as violence then or later).



It is common sense, what type of (sober) asshole flips out or causes a ruckus. I don't blame cops or the government for not being taught how to act. Really? Seriously? We, as a society, need to be told how to act? Someone needs to be taught to do what Rob said? Thats almost absurd. Are you saying that someone should get a pass for flipping out on cops because we aren't taught how to behave? Every situation i've been in with the cops, including traffic stops, accidents, underage and public drinking, and homicide(JK ON THAT ONE LOLZ), I have remained polite, calm and respectful because chances are if you aren't nuts, they will let you go.

[Dorothy Wood]

It is common sense, what type of (sober) asshole flips out or causes a ruckus. I don't blame cops or the government for not being taught how to act. Really? Seriously? We, as a society, need to be told how to act? Someone needs to be taught to do what Rob said? Thats almost absurd. Are you saying that someone should get a pass for flipping out on cops because we aren't taught how to behave? Every situation i've been in with the cops, including traffic stops, accidents, underage and public drinking, and homicide(JK ON THAT ONE LOLZ), I have remained polite, calm and respectful because chances are if you aren't nuts, they will let you go.


see you can say this, but how many times have you been falsely accused of something?

there was another time that I was uncooperative with police. I won't get too much into it, but I was a teenager, and SOBER, and being questioned by a detective in one of those rooms with the two-way mirror like on t.v. (except not as dark and dreary I guess). long story short, the questions were leading in a direction where I was being accused of hiding information, and I wasn't. they treated me as if I was guilty of something, and I wasn't. so I got pretty mad and just stopped talking altogether.


my mom on the other hand, flipped her shit and was screaming. we didn't do anything, and the cops treated us like we did. we didn't know we lived with a monster.



I'm just saying, it is a normal reaction for some people to freak out when being falsely accused.

[Whatitis]

LOL at we're not trained how to act by the police or government, seriously. Flipping out never helps a situation and only turns the situation into havoc, gets everyone involved unnerved and creates more problems like what happened between Gates and Crowley. It could have been avoided had cooler heads prevailed. On both sides. That's common sense.

[yeahwho]

hate to stir the pot, but this story is now becoming a "he said/he said/she said" story.

911 caller in Gates arrest never referred to 'black suspects' (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/27/gates.arrest/)

Attorney Wendy Murphy, who represents Whalen, also categorically rejected part of the police report that said Whalen talked with Sgt. James Crowley, the arresting officer, at the scene.

"Let me be clear: She never had a conversation with Sgt. Crowley at the scene," Murphy told CNN by phone. "And she never said to any police officer or to anybody 'two black men.' She never used the word 'black.' Period."

She added, "I'm not sure what the police explanation will be. Frankly, I don't care. Her only goal is to make it clear she never described them as black. She never saw their race. ... All she reported was behavior, not skin color."

In the police report, filed by Crowley, he says he spoke with Whalen outside the home before he approached Gates' house.

"She went on to tell me that she observed what appeared to be two black males with backpacks on the porch of Ware Street," the report says. "She told me that her suspicions were aroused when she observed one of the men wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry."

[Dorothy Wood]

oops. maybe she would like to drink some beer with obama too.

[RobMoney$]

She did say TWO men though, right.

Was her describing them as black even an issue?

[yeahwho]

She did say TWO men though, right.

Was her describing them as black even an issue?

According to Crowley it was. Enough to allegedly falsify his police report.

In the police report, filed by Crowley, he says he spoke with Whalen outside the home before he approached Gates' house.

"She went on to tell me that she observed what appeared to be two black males with backpacks on the porch of Ware Street," the report says. "She told me that her suspicions were aroused when she observed one of the men wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry."

[RobMoney$]

Sure this would have probably worked perfectly. The only problem is that the police and the government do not train us to conduct ourselves this way. Indeed they do not tell us how to be careful with dealing with police officers. Perhaps it is common sense.

I know liberals want the government to do everything for us, but this is just too funny.
It's not the responsibility of the police or the government to train you how to conduct yourself in society, your parents or your parental figure should.
The fact that Prof. Gates has achieved the level of education he has, it goes without saying that he should have known how to conduct himself when being confronted by a police officer investigating a reported crime in progress.
Hell, he fancies himself as some sort of authority on the issue of racism in society, correct?
It's laughable that you dismiss his actions as the fault of the government or the police.




But I think the fact remains that people get annoyed at the police (or anyone for that matter) when we are accused of doing something wrong when we have not. Being uncooperative is usually the first response by the person falsely accused.

You're confusing the facts, and I think intentionally.
He wasn't accused of a crime before he became belligerant, he was asked to exit the home for both the officers' safety and Gates' safety, and to provide identification.
He then became belligerant, continued to be belligerant from his front porch as the officer exited the home, and continued even as the officer warned him twice, making comments about Crowley's mother in full view of two other officers arriving on the scene and a gathering crowd of neighbors.
That's where he crossed the line and the officer decided to arrest Gates.

[RobMoney$]

According to Crowley it was. Enough to allegedly falsify his police report.

In the police report, filed by Crowley, he says he spoke with Whalen outside the home before he approached Gates' house.

"She went on to tell me that she observed what appeared to be two black males with backpacks on the porch of Ware Street," the report says. "She told me that her suspicions were aroused when she observed one of the men wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry."


Sorry, I just don't see how her either providing a race in the description, or not providing it changes anything?

[Dorothy Wood]

Sorry, I just don't see how her either providing a race in the description, or not providing it changes anything?

get your head out of your ass, seriously. I mean, really, please, just try to understand logic.

she's being accused of racial profiling by the media/bloggers/people on the street, and she just wants people to know that she didn't even say anything about them being black so she couldn't have been profiling.

it doesn't change anything, but it does show that crowley put false information in his report, so that calls in to question everything else he has to say. in my opinion.

[yeahwho]

Wow, you must be pretty disappointed that this is going to work out in President Obama's favor. All I am saying is if Gates stays in his house and never steps outside of his house disorderly conduct is not going to fly. Crowley seems like a reasonably intelligent man, he had him step outside his house. That is fucked up.

Crowley knows he cannot enter the house and arrest him for the same crime, he fucking knows this... he has proven he is smarter than the average cop.

Here is another take on what I was trying to convey a few days ago

A Lot Said, and Unsaid, About Race (http://warner.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/a-lot-said-and-unsaid-about-race/)

In his story of their verbal tussle, Crowley describes himself as overwhelmed by the noise in Gates’s kitchen, as the black professor loudly accused the white cop of racial profiling. Seeing that Gates could not be persuaded to use an inside voice, Crowley retreated to the street, inviting Gates to join him outdoors.

“Ya, I’ll speak with your mama outside,” Gates allegedly told him.

The above statement according to Gates never happened. All of sudden his credibility has far outscored Crowley's.

Had Gates been a white man, approached in his home and abruptly told to step outside, he might well have bristled at the cold officiousness of the officer’s tone, but he probably wouldn’t have thought, or known, that to leave the haven of his house would expose him to the possibility of sudden arrest.

[Burnout18]

see you can say this, but how many times have you been falsely accused of something?



Yes, and remaining calm is a great way to prove you are innocent. Whatitis nailed it, too.

[yeahwho]

Sorry, I just don't see how her either providing a race in the description, or not providing it changes anything?

LOL! C'mon, this is the most publicized, reported and talked about case of Disorderly Conduct known in the history of the Universe.

All of a sudden you, of all people, forgot why? We are in a thread about watching the police closely.

You remind me of that land shark bit from SNL (http://www.spike.com/video/saturday-night-live/2802070). As the story changes you remain a land shark. It's comic relief.

[RobMoney$]

get your head out of your ass, seriously. I mean, really, please, just try to understand logic.

she's being accused of racial profiling by the media/bloggers/people on the street, and she just wants people to know that she didn't even say anything about them being black so she couldn't have been profiling.

it doesn't change anything, but it does show that crowley put false information in his report, so that calls in to question everything else he has to say. in my opinion.


But they were two black males, one of which was trying to force his way into the home.
So even if she did report their race to the police, how the hell is that racial profiling?


W.T.F.


Perhaps she's not getting enough of the spotlight?

also, I'm getting tired of the personal digs at me, Dorothy.

[Bob]

i hate agreeing with robmoney but yeah i don't see why it's such a big deal whether or not she called the police with a report of "two males" or "two black males" pushing their way into a house. either way, crowley arrived at the scene expecting two males of some sort.

i'm not convinced that the fact he wrote "two black males" in his report means anything sinister. sure, i suppose he could have purposely lied in order to....uh.....or maybe, in the chaos of everything that happened that day, he couldn't remember whether he received a call of "two males" or "two black males" and he inadvertently wrote it down wrong. and that's assuming that the witness actually did leave out the "black" part - she could be remembering it wrong, too

not a big deal, i don't think

[Dorothy Wood]

But they were two black males, one of which was trying to force his way into the home.
So even if she did report their race to the police, how the hell is that racial profiling?


W.T.F.


Perhaps she's not getting enough of the spotlight?

also, I'm getting tired of the personal digs at me, Dorothy.

beyond your blatant disregard for facts, and your ham-fisted plagiarism, some of the things you've said in here are despicable, awful things, I will not stand by and let them go without protest. so maybe you should take a nap if you're tired.

to the question, you are missing the point completely. people thought she was being a snobby white lady who saw black people and freaked. they just jumped to that conclusion. much like you jumped to the conclusion that every fucking word out of crowley's mouth is gospel.

he said that he spoke with her on the scene. she says she did not. the 911 tape clearly shows that she didn't know what race the individuals were, yet Crowley said that she said they were two black men.

He reported false information. therefore anything else in that police report is suspect. and since YOU WEREN'T THERE, and I wasn't there, nobody can really say what happened since everyone has a different story.

that's why all four of them need to get drunk and arm wrestle it out.

[Burnout18]

how the hell is that racial profiling?



I always thought that racial profiling implied that someone was stopped because they were a certain race, they were pulled over, they were falsely arrested....

But when someone who is black is trying to break into a house, and i say hey a black male is trying to break into a house, I'm not lying, I'm not profiling, I'm giving an accurate description.

Chances are, unless someone is extremely fat, tall or short, when giving a description after you mention the person's sex,,,, well you are going to mention the race.

[Dorothy Wood]

i hate agreeing with robmoney but yeah i don't see why it's such a big deal whether or not she called the police with a report of "two males" or "two black males" pushing their way into a house. either way, crowley arrived at the scene expecting two males of some sort.

i'm not convinced that the fact he wrote "two black males" in his report means anything sinister. sure, i suppose he could have purposely lied in order to....uh.....or maybe, in the chaos of everything that happened that day, he couldn't remember whether he received a call of "two males" or "two black males" and he inadvertently wrote it down wrong. and that's assuming that the witness actually did leave out the "black" part - she could be remembering it wrong, too

not a big deal, i don't think


did you listen to the 911 tape, bob? she clearly says that she didn't know the race of either man.

[Burnout18]

that's why all four of them need to get drunk and arm wrestle it out.

agree!

[RobMoney$]

beyond your blatant disregard for facts, and your ham-fisted plagiarism, some of the things you've said in here are despicable, awful things, I will not stand by and let them go without protest. so maybe you should take a nap if you're tired.


On my way out for lunch today, I gave a black vagrant $5.
He was playing a ukulele and was taking requests.
I asked for the theme to the Flintstones, and not only did he play it but sang the words as well.

He certainly deserved something for the effort, and I got a "God Bless You" out of it....so at least I've got that going for me.

[RobMoney$]

i hate agreeing with robmoney


This cut me deep.

[Documad]

I think you're now jumping to conclusions in accusing him of "Falsifying his police report."

First, I don't think that a minor error should qualify for that sort of characterization. Again, I go back to my comment that the report was printed out days after the event. Did he write it several days later or did he dictate it or draft it several hours later and then it was finalized several days after that? He's not taking notes as he works. He has to rely upon his memory. What if he honestly remembered some detail wrong several hours or several days later? That's a mistake but it's not some conspiracy. I've made loads of mistakes on my job.

But we don't even know whether it was his mistake or not. Patrol officers don't usually listen to 911 calls themselves. They get a call or a computer read out from the dispatcher. The message is relayed through several people. I handled DUI cases years ago and the cop who pulled the car over for suspected drunk driving never heard the 911 call from the tipster before pulling the car over. He relied upon the dispatcher. Sometimes minimal details would be summarized on his computer screen. Later on, the cop would sometimes put things in his report that he saw in other reports, like the info from dispatch.

As for the conversation on the lawn, the 911 caller references another neighbor who was the one who was really concerned that it was a break in. That other neighbor was the one who wanted police contacted. Maybe when Crowley arrived, that other neighbor approached him on the lawn, because according to the 911 caller, that neighbor was more concerned than the 911 caller.

As with the alleged 9/11 cover-up, I don't understand why people are so apt to believe in a government conspiracy when human error is the more likely scenario.

For the millionth time, I don't know what happened that day. None of us do. I don't get why some of you are so certain about the facts. I encourage you to read all media accounts of this and other such stories with a critical eye.

[RobMoney$]

Audio (http://boston.com/?refresh=true)

So much for the racial profiling argument.

[Dorothy Wood]

I think you're now jumping to conclusions in accusing him of "Falsifying his police report."

First, I don't think that a minor error should qualify for that sort of characterization. Again, I go back to my comment that the report was printed out days after the event. Did he write it several days later or did he dictate it or draft it several hours later and then it was finalized several days after that? He's not taking notes as he works. He has to rely upon his memory. What if he honestly remembered some detail wrong several hours or several days later? That's a mistake but it's not some conspiracy. I've made loads of mistakes on my job.

But we don't even know whether it was his mistake or not. Patrol officers don't usually listen to 911 calls themselves. They get a call or a computer read out from the dispatcher. The message is relayed through several people. I handled DUI cases years ago and the cop who pulled the car over for suspected drunk driving never heard the 911 call from the tipster before pulling the car over. He relied upon the dispatcher. Sometimes minimal details would be summarized on his computer screen. Later on, the cop would sometimes put things in his report that he saw in other reports, like the info from dispatch.

As for the conversation on the lawn, the 911 caller references another neighbor who was the one who was really concerned that it was a break in. That other neighbor was the one who wanted police contacted. Maybe when Crowley arrived, that other neighbor approached him on the lawn, because according to the 911 caller, that neighbor was more concerned than the 911 caller.

As with the alleged 9/11 cover-up, I don't understand why people are so apt to believe in a government conspiracy when human error is the more likely scenario.

For the millionth time, I don't know what happened that day. None of us do. I don't get why some of you are so certain about the facts. I encourage you to read all media accounts of this and other such stories with a critical eye.


me? I actually agree with what you're saying. I guess what I personally meant by him reporting "false information", is that his account may not be entirely accurate, so it's hard to assume (for me, at least) that everything written in the report is exactly as it happened.

and as mad as I'm getting at robmoney for being a bigot, I actually don't think that racial profiling was involved in this at all, from the policeman's point of view. but I can see how Gates would feel like he was a victim of racial profiling, which would explain his reaction.

and again, like you said, none of us were there, or even really know what that reaction exactly was. he's saying he calmly cooperated and crowley says he was throwing out "yo mama".

I don't want to make Crowley into a villain, but I don't want him to be a hero either.

[yeahwho]

I think you're now jumping to conclusions in accusing him of "Falsifying his police report."

First, I don't think that a minor error should qualify for that sort of characterization.

OK, lets just stop right there, what you, I and literally millions of other people think isn't the reason Mrs. Whalen hired an attorney. She obviously wants it to be perfectly clear what she reported. It would be all too convenient for her report to be swept under the rug.

She is making absolutely sure her part of this story is the truth. She has taken extraordinary steps to do so.

Gates 911 call: Witness not sure she sees crime (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jqwi0TSVtxC458-6AKpUuaTpH5FgD99N40G00)

In her 911 call, Lucia Whalen, who works at the Harvard alumni magazine, repeatedly tells the operator she is not sure what is happening.

I don't mind a few mistakes here and there, but like I said earlier I have the suspicion Crowley may be too smart for his own good. I am prolific in my profession, but when something goes wrong I admit it. If I have to answer to a higher entity, write a report, I'm extremely honest. The worse that can happen then is a suspension. If caught falsifying I'm in serious legal trouble without a job. I think Crowley just may have stepped over the line here.

And that is a complete 180 from my original POV.

[RobMoney$]

me? I actually agree with what you're saying. I guess what I personally meant by him reporting "false information", is that his account may not be entirely accurate, so it's hard to assume (for me, at least) that everything written in the report is exactly as it happened.

and as mad as I'm getting at robmoney for being a bigot, I actually don't think that racial profiling was involved in this at all, from the policeman's point of view. but I can see how Gates would feel like he was a victim of racial profiling, which would explain his reaction.

and again, like you said, none of us were there, or even really know what that reaction exactly was. he's saying he calmly cooperated and crowley says he was throwing out "yo mama".

I don't want to make Crowley into a villain, but I don't want him to be a hero either.

You're obviously identifying with Gates in this because you've posted numerous stories of how each and everytime YOU were confronted by a cop, you reacted with belligerance, or you Mother was being belligerant on your behalf.
You won't admit that Gates' behavior was wrong because that'll be admitting that your behavior was wrong, and we all know that you're too self centered to ever admit that you were ever wrong.

You can't even admit that you're wrong about accusing Crowley of "falsifying the report" even though a legal professional (Doc) is telling you otherwise, and all of the other eye-witness testimony supports Crowley's story.

I think you're just arguing for arguments sake at this point.
It's sad really.

[Documad]

OK, lets just stop right there, what you, I and literally millions of other people think isn't the reason Mrs. Whalen hired an attorney. She obviously wants it to be perfectly clear what she reported. It would be all too convenient for her report to be swept under the rug.

She is making absolutely sure her part of this story is the truth. She has taken extraordinary steps to do so.

Gates 911 call: Witness not sure she sees crime (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jqwi0TSVtxC458-6AKpUuaTpH5FgD99N40G00)

In her 911 call, Lucia Whalen, who works at the Harvard alumni magazine, repeatedly tells the operator she is not sure what is happening.

I don't mind a few mistakes here and there, but like I said earlier I have the suspicion Crowley may be too smart for his own good. I am prolific in my profession, but when something goes wrong I admit it. If I have to answer to a higher entity, write a report, I'm extremely honest. The worse that can happen then is a suspension. If caught falsifying I'm in serious legal trouble without a job. I think Crowley just may have stepped over the line here.

And that is a complete 180 from my original POV.
In the rest of my post, I said that patrol officers who respond to calls almost never hear the actual call before they respond. They respond based upon someone else's short summary of the report. So I'll bet that he was told that a neighbor reported seeing a potential break-in at the residence. I doubt that the little blurb that goes to the squad car says "she's calling on behalf of someone else and she's not sure whether they had luggage". Patrol officers are supposed to respond right away. They're supposed to rely upon the information provided by others who work for the police department. We don't usually want them to drive back to the station and listen to the 10 minute 911 call before they act.

[Documad]

Hey, I appreciate Dorothy's viewpoint here, and yeahwho's. No one has an agenda. We're just filtering the limited facts available through our own experiences. Sort of like Crowley and Gates did that day. :rolleyes:

[Dorothy Wood]

In the rest of my post, I said that patrol officers who respond to calls almost never hear the actual call before they respond. They respond based upon someone else's short summary of the report. So I'll bet that he was told that a neighbor reported seeing a potential break-in at the residence. I doubt that the little blurb that goes to the squad car says "she's calling on behalf of someone else and she's not sure whether they had luggage". Patrol officers are supposed to respond right away. They're supposed to rely upon the information provided by others who work for the police department. We don't usually want them to drive back to the station and listen to the 10 minute 911 call before they act.

yeah, but even in that link that rob posted, with the radio transmissions, the dispatcher clearly says that nobody knows what race the two men were. she says "unknown on race", "one may be hispanic, not sure".

just sayin'. it's not consistent with his report.

[RobMoney$]

On another note, is anyone else bothered by this whole beer-summit thing?

I mean sure, it's probably only like $10,000 for flights, limos, security, beers, and incedentials,
but I don't see why the taxpayers should have to pick up the tab to smooth over a speaking gaffe that Obama made.

I'll give Obama credit on one thing tho,
There isn't a PR moment that he hasn't figured out how to exploit or simply make, to make sure his pretty face stays in the limelight.
The talking heads will be eating this up.
"See, the President can sit down with regular people and admit that mistakes were made and have a beer with them. Isn't he great!"

[Documad]

yeah, but even in that link that rob posted, with the radio transmissions, the dispatcher clearly says that nobody knows what race the two men were. she says "unknown on race", "one may be hispanic, not sure".

just sayin'. it's not consistent with his report.

Yeah, he sure could have made a mistake. I don't see how it matters though. He's told that two men were breaking into a house. He hears it for a second while he's responding. He gets to the house and finds a black man inside who had just broken into his own home. He gets into a dispute and arrests the guy (which I still think was dumb when he could have issued him a ticket or given him a warning). Then he goes about his other business for a few hours and dictates his report. When he's describing the dispatch he says black men instead of men. Not because he hates black people. Not because there would have been no justification for his responding the call if it said men instead of black men. But because he just interacted with a black man, his mind fills in the blank. He remembers it wrong. That's a mistake that happens to everyone. It's just lucky that most of never have the quality of our memory tested everyday on our jobs.

It's entirely different than a situation where the patrol cop gets a dispatch saying "a caller reported a driver who was acting suspiciously but didn't describe what made it suspicious" and the cop pulls the car over and arrests the driver and then writes a report saying "the caller reported that the driver was weaving all over the road and drove through a red light." That would be falsifying a police report.

[Dorothy Wood]

You're obviously identifying with Gates in this because you've posted numerous stories of how each and everytime YOU were confronted by a cop, you reacted with belligerance, or you Mother was being belligerant on your behalf.
You won't admit that Gates' behavior was wrong because that'll be admitting that your behavior was wrong, and we all know that you're too self centered to ever admit that you were ever wrong.

I can understand reacting negatively to an authority, yes, because I have in the past. and my mom wasn't "belligerent" on my behalf, she was upset and defending herself because she was being accused of awful things she did not do and was not a part of. AT ALL. she had a right to scream. and in the end, the police had to apologize to us for handling the situation poorly and approaching us as criminals instead of the innocent bystanders we were.


I've been saying Gates was wrong the whole time, he overreacted. All I'm saying is that I understand why. Self-centered or not, I do not believe that my behavior was wrong in the Georgia case, because I think it was wrong that I was physically apprehended and restrained on false suspicion. A man put his hands on me and I reacted aggressively. Which I find to be a perfectly valid reaction. Should I have continued to yell at the cops and act like a jackass after I was cleared of wrong-doing? no, probably not, but I won't apologize for standing up for myself prior to that.



You can't even admit that you're wrong about accusing Crowley of "falsifying the report" even though a legal professional (Doc) is telling you otherwise, and all of the other eye-witness testimony supports Crowley's story.

I think you're just arguing for arguments sake at this point.
It's sad really.

okay well, I never said that he was "falsifying the report". I said:

it doesn't change anything, but it does show that crowley put false information in his report, so that calls in to question everything else he has to say. in my opinion.


He reported false information.

There's a difference.


I'm arguing for clarification. We've all made assumptions in this thread. I've back tracked on my stance as more information has come out. You're the only one who seems to be completely sure of the situation. The only thing I'm completely sure of is that you're a bigot.

[Dorothy Wood]

Yeah, he sure could have made a mistake. I don't see how it matters though. He's told that two men were breaking into a house. He hears it for a second while he's responding. He gets to the house and finds a black man inside who had just broken into his own home. He gets into a dispute and arrests the guy (which I still think was dumb when he could have issued him a ticket or given him a warning). Then he goes about his other business for a few hours and dictates his report. When he's describing the dispatch he says black men instead of men. Not because he hates black people. Not because there would have been no justification for his responding the call if it said men instead of black men. But because he just interacted with a black man, his mind fills in the blank. He remembers it wrong. That's a mistake that happens to everyone. It's just lucky that most of never have the quality of our memory tested everyday on our jobs.

It's entirely different than a situation where the patrol cop gets a dispatch saying "a caller reported a driver who was acting suspiciously but didn't describe what made it suspicious" and the cop pulls the car over and arrests the driver and then writes a report saying "the caller reported that the driver was weaving all over the road and drove through a red light." That would be falsifying a police report.

oh no, you're totally right. and like I said before, I never claimed that he falsified the report knowingly. I just said he reported false information, so there could be other falsities (that's a word, right?) too. or maybe I should say "mistakes", because the word "false" implies lying.

gah, I honestly don't think the arrest was racially motivated. I think race played a part in escalating the situation on Gates side (because he assumed racism), but that Crowley's problem was more about letting his emotions get the better of him. in his way, he was standing up for himself because he felt disrespected.


anyway, I think Obama and Gates should travel on their own dime and have the beer at Crowley's house. BYO.

[Bob]

i don't think i'd want to have a beer with obama. sure he's charming and all but he seems like one of those guys who would smile big and laugh real hard at all your jokes but in such a way where you're like "ok, you're just trying to make me feel good, i get it", i don't think i'd have fun. i'd rather let him get back to health insurance and afghanistan and whatever

[Dorothy Wood]

i don't think i'd want to have a beer with obama. sure he's charming and all but he seems like one of those guys who would smile big and laugh real hard at all your jokes but in such a way where you're like "ok, you're just trying to make me feel good, i get it", i don't think i'd have fun. i'd rather let him get back to health insurance and afghanistan and whatever


yeah, it'd probably be really awkward.

I do think it's important that there's some sort of resolution to this issue though. because people are freaking out about it. I'm mostly worried that it's making racists more racist. white and black racists.

I really not pleased that obama commented the way he did, and I think the beer thing is silly. but at this point, he's made his bed and everyone has to sleep it in.

[RobMoney$]

Just saw someone on my local news suggest that the question was planted by Obama. He was prepared for it.
It was his decision to have this question included.
Lynn Sweet is from Chicago, she was asking the question for a reason.

The problem is it backfired on him BIG TIME.

[Bob]

Just saw someone on my local news suggest that the question was planted by Obama. He was prepared for it.
It was his decision to have this question included.
Lynn Sweet is from Chicago, she was asking the question for a reason.

The problem is it backfired on him BIG TIME.

case closed

[Dorothy Wood]

lol

what was the reason?

[yeahwho]

In the rest of my post, I said that patrol officers who respond to calls almost never hear the actual call before they respond. We don't usually want them to drive back to the station and listen to the 10 minute 911 call before they act.

I'm very familiar with these procedures, none of the this escapes me.

Yeah, he sure could have made a mistake. I don't see how it matters though. He's told that two men were breaking into a house. He hears it for a second while he's responding. He gets to the house and finds a black man inside who had just broken into his own home. He gets into a dispute and arrests the guy (which I still think was dumb when he could have issued him a ticket or given him a warning). Then he goes about his other business for a few hours and dictates his report. When he's describing the dispatch he says black men instead of men. Not because he hates black people. Not because there would have been no justification for his responding the call if it said men instead of black men. But because he just interacted with a black man, his mind fills in the blank. He remembers it wrong. That's a mistake that happens to everyone. It's just lucky that most of never have the quality of our memory tested everyday on our jobs.

It's entirely different than a situation where the patrol cop gets a dispatch saying "a caller reported a driver who was acting suspiciously but didn't describe what made it suspicious" and the cop pulls the car over and arrests the driver and then writes a report saying "the caller reported that the driver was weaving all over the road and drove through a red light." That would be falsifying a police report.

Sure, I can recall everything that happened last week at work. I bet Officer Crowley can too. I honestly don't think he was that stressed out over Mr. Gates. In fact if he was he probably needs to change careers. It seems like a pretty straight forward ordeal.... I had something eerily similar happen to me within the past 60 days.

The clincher for me is when he asked Mr. Gates to step outside. I am pretty good at my job and all of us tell each other tricks of the trade, after a few years it's second nature to go through all the options you become familiar with as you become a pro. That "step outside" was the breaking point for me. Now with the 911 caller coming forward with an attorney stating the facts I'm beyond giving Crowley a break.

You must work in the prosecutors office or with police union, I have a friend who worked as an attorney for the Seattle police union. He's in private practice now... sea lawyer... I'll ask him what he thinks. BTW, he hated working for the Police union, too many petty grievances.

[Documad]

Yeahwho, I have a natural instinct to defend the underdog. So when people are piling on, I almost always play devil's advocate, just to try to get people to see both sides. Basically, I argue because I like to argue.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

I find it revealing that the 911 caller stated that the people trying to get into the house could have lived there and had luggage with them. Surely the dispatcher told Crowley this critical information. The fact that Crowley's report contains inaccuracies may reflect poor judgment as well. As pointed out by another post the fact that Crowley handcuffed an elderly man who was not a threat to anyone's safety is also problematic. Together this is beginning to sound like an officer who does not like to be challenged and retaliates toward those who stand up to him. I have no problem with the police using reasonable restraint tactics when there are threats to their own or others safety. Indeed I expect them to do so. However when an officer of the law makes a citizen's life difficult just because they made the officer angry or just because the police officier wants to assert their dominance over them that is inappropriate. How about we recruit and increase the salaries of officers who are physically and mentally fit for fair and firm policing? The public may feel safer around police if this were the case -- and that would be a good thing.

Gates 911 call: Witness not sure she sees crime
By RUSSELL CONTRERAS (AP) – 9 hours ago

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. — The 911 caller who reported two men possibly breaking into the home of black Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. did not describe their race, acknowledged they might just be having a hard time with the door and said she saw two suitcases on the porch.

Cambridge police on Monday released the 911 recording and radio transmissions from the scene in an effort to show they had nothing to hide, but the tapes raised new questions about how and why the situation escalated.

Gates' July 16 arrest on a disorderly conduct charge sparked a national debate about whether the professor was a victim of racial profiling. Gates, returning from a trip to China, and his driver had forced their way through the front door because it was jammed, and the charge was later dropped.

In her 911 call, Lucia Whalen, who works at the Harvard alumni magazine, repeatedly tells the operator she is not sure what is happening.

Speaking calmly, she tells the operator that she was stopped by an elderly woman who told her she noticed two men trying to get into a house. Whalen initially says she saw two men pushing on the door, but later says one of the men entered the home and she didn't get a good look at him. She says she noticed two suitcases.

"I don't know if they live there and they just had a hard time with their key. But I did notice they used their shoulder to try to barge in and they got in. I don't know if they had a key or not, 'cause I couldn't see from my angle," Whalen says.

She does not mention the race of the men until pressed by a dispatcher to describe them.

"Um, well, there were two larger men," Whalen says. "One looked kind of Hispanic, but I'm not really sure. And the other one entered and I didn't see what he looked like at all. I just saw it from a distance and this older woman was worried, thinking, 'Someone's been breaking in someone's house. They've been barging in.'"

The officer who arrested Gates, Sgt. James Crowley, said in his police report that he talked to Whalen soon after he arrived at Gates' home. "She went on to tell me that she observed what appeared to be two black males with backpacks on the porch," Crowley, who's white, wrote in his report.

Whalen's attorney, Wendy Murphy, said her client never mentioned the men's race to Crowley and is upset by news reports she believes have unfairly depicted her as a racist.

"She doesn't live in the area. She is by no means the entitled white neighbor. ... That has been the theme in the blogs and the implication in some of the mainstream news media," Murphy said in a phone interview Monday.

In his written report, Crowley said Gates became angry when he told him he was investigating a report of a break-in, then yelled at him and called him a racist.

In a radio communication with a dispatcher, also released Monday, Crowley said Gates was not cooperating.

"I'm up with a gentleman, says he resides here, but was uncooperative, but keep the cars coming," Crowley said.

Another voice can be heard in the background of the transmission, but it is unintelligible and unclear if it is Gates.

Cambridge police Commissioner Robert Haas acknowledged that the police report contains a reference to race, but said the report is merely a summary of events.

Gates did not immediately return an e-mail message, and his spokesman did not return e-mail and telephone messages.

Crowley could not be reached for comment. A message left at the police station was not returned, and no one answered the phone at his Natick home.

The professor's supporters called his arrest an outrageous act of racial profiling. Crowley's supporters say Gates was arrested because he was belligerent and that race was not a factor.

Interest in the case intensified when President Barack Obama said at a White House news conference last week that Cambridge police "acted stupidly" in arresting Gates. He later tried to quell the uproar about his comments and invited both Gates and Crowley to the White House for a beer. That meeting was scheduled for Thursday evening, an administration official said on the condition of anonymity because the meeting had not been announced.

David Kennedy, director of the Center for Crime Prevention and Control at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, said he did not think the latest revelations related to the 911 caller would change many opinions on the case.

"My guess is that that adds nothing to the conviction of black Americans that the cops like to lie a lot," Kennedy said. "It's just another example of something they already thoroughly believe, and that if it affects the views of those who generally trust the police, it would affect it in a very small way at most."

Gov. Deval Patrick, a black friend of Gates who last week called the arrest "every black man's nightmare," said Monday he wouldn't apologize for his remarks.

A multiracial group of police officers and union officials supporting Crowley had called on the governor to say he was sorry. But the governor said he wasn't sure why he was being asked to apologize.

Patrick said he acknowledged from the beginning he wasn't at Gates' home to witness the arrest, and he said Crowley seemed to be "a pretty good guy."

Associated Press writers Denise Lavoie in Boston and Philip Elliott in Washington contributed to this report.



SOURCE ASSOCIATED PRESS:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jqwi0TSVtxC458-6AKpUuaTpH5FgD99N6BVG0

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Documad wrote:

"Yeahwho, I have a natural instinct to defend the underdog. So when people are piling on, I almost always play devil's advocate, just to try to get people to see both sides. Basically, I argue because I like to argue."

That is funny. I guess that is the great (or not so great?) thing about political debates humans are designed to have them regardless of the topic or their true feelings.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

I know liberals want the government to do everything for us, but this is just too funny.
It's not the responsibility of the police or the government to train you how to conduct yourself in society, your parents or your parental figure should.
It's laughable that you dismiss his actions as the fault of the government or the police.

Actually I lean toward libertarianism. I should have been more clear -- all I meant was that people need to know the following things when they deal with the police (but they often do not conduct themselves this way):

1) Be very polite otherwise they will often make your life miserable. And if you get aggressive god help you.

2) Tell them nothing, otherwise they will use that information against you in a court of law.

The second few people tell you -- indeed our gut reaction is to talk to them (this is what they want so they can contort that information and charge you if possible). The police generally do not tell you these things because (a) they like physical aggression; and (b) they want you to hang yourself with your words.




You're confusing the facts, and I think intentionally.
He wasn't accused of a crime before he became belligerant, he was asked to exit the home for both the officers' safety and Gates' safety, and to provide identification.
He then became belligerant, continued to be belligerant from his front porch as the officer exited the home, and continued even as the officer warned him twice, making comments about Crowley's mother in full view of two other officers arriving on the scene and a gathering crowd of neighbors.
That's where he crossed the line and the officer decided to arrest Gates.

Well if Crowley asked Prof Gates to go outside his home so the officer could search the house for criminals to make sure it was safe I suppose that would be fine. However without a warrant or reasonable cause it does make me wonder. I would presume Gates perceived the officer as assuming that he was the possible culprit. Crowley could have easily looked around the house and seen photos of Gates making the request for ID a little peculiar under the circumstances. Simply entering Gates name into the cop car's driver's licence database the officer would have had a photo of Gates and address before arriving at the scene -- no need to even ask for ID.

What if Crowley was the person who did the break and enter and was posing as a police officer to gain entry (is it far-fetched?). Demanding to see Crowley's ID probably would have been more appropriate (than Crowley asking for Gates') considering Crowley was driving an unmarked police car.

[yeahwho]

What if Crowley was the person who did the break and enter and was posing as a police officer to gain entry (is it far-fetched?). Demanding to see Crowley's ID probably would have been more appropriate (than Crowley asking for Gates') considering Crowley was driving an unmarked police car.

When my alarm system went off in May and I gave the Brinks people my wrong codeword the police were dispatched to my house. Even though I knew this was probably going to happen it freaked me out.

At that point and until this day I do not know why my alarm went off, I myself had just came out of a solid sleep to a screaming siren and had to stumble around push codes and check doors, windows, see if my cats or dog were trying to rip me off, I was a mess and just when shit settles down a knock on my door.

When you do that first sizing up of the police at your front door, the badge always seems cheesier and uniform seems slightly fake. There was no patrol car out front. Even though I knew it was completely legit, the scam-o-meter in my head never shuts off and my constant background scam-o-meter scanner is working while we have a civil conversation about my pathetic event.

The difference is I want to go back to sleep, he wants to back to whatever it is he does so when he asks for my ID I hand it over, I literally tell him while he's looking at my ID, "Hey there is nobody else as good looking as that picture, so you can be sure it's me" he laughs a little, I smile and go immediately back to sleep.

Like documad stated above I usually side on the little guys side and even though in my mind I believe Crowley used unfair leverage in both the arrest report and actual arrest, he is in a "Damn if you do, Damn if you don't" position. If the house did get completely ripped off the Police failed, when the Police do respond to a possible ripoff they're hassling the homeowner.

Crowley has that going for him, it's got to be one thankless, dangerous job. With pay that would never allow him some of the benefits Gates has enjoyed as a Harvard Professor.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Crowley has that going for him, it's got to be one thankless, dangerous job. With pay that would never allow him some of the benefits Gates has enjoyed as a Harvard Professor.

I must admit I have always had a soft spot for the underdog as well. Plus my Dad was a cop for 20 years so I do have a bias in favour of them. Nonetheless cops have done some nasty things over the years and in some cases were ordered to do so.

1) Staged terrorist attacks in Canada (FLQ crisis in the 1960's (http://www.gatecreepers.com/entries/exclusive-the-role-of-the-media-in-the-october/))
2) Helped lynch people in the past (7 August 1930 Indiana) but racially motivated police brutality still occurs today (http://hiphopnews.yuku.com/topic/1047)
3) Arresting a person for their sexual orientation (2002 (http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=18556&group=webcast))

[RobMoney$]

Henry Gates Yale application
http://principallypolitical.wordpress.com/2009/07/27/a-changed-man-gates-used-racial-slur-in-college-application/


“As always, whitey now sits in judgment of me, preparing to cast my fate. It is your decision either to let me blow with the wind as a nonentity or to encourage the development of self. Allow me to prove myself.”



Seems Prof. Gates has had a chip on his shoulder for a long time.

[Dorothy Wood]

hmm, when they plucked that quote from another article, I wonder why they didn't include the whole context?


from the AP
To his eventual embarrassment, he wrote in his Yale application:


"As always, whitey now sits in judgment of me, preparing to cast my fate. It is your decision either to let me blow with the wind as a nonentity or to encourage the development of self. Allow me to prove myself."


He was substantial enough to get into Yale anyway, politicized enough to protest racism and the Vietnam War, but never so disheartened by his country that he didn't consider himself a part of it.


As a scholar, he has advocated African American history as part of American history, distrusting "the rhetoric of crisis" and unwilling to enter the "sweepstakes of oppression." Change has been effected from the top. At Harvard, Gates is credited with turning the school's African American studies program into a "hub" for intellectual history, Appiah said, with fellows and faculty advisers including Guinier, William Julius Wilson and Nobel laureate Wole Soyinka.

Gates' pull is also political. He is close to the Clintons and initially supported Hillary Rodham Clinton's presidential run.



http://www.wtop.com/?nid=104&pid=0&sid=1725138&page=1

dude, it was like the early 70's or something, whitey was in charge of everyone and everything.


and, hey rob, can you answer my question about why Lynn Sweet was planted to ask Obama about this situation? what was the reason? you said she had a reason and I am really curious about what you think the reason was? please?

[RobMoney$]

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=104&pid=0&sid=1725138&page=1

dude, it was like the early 70's or something, whitey was in charge of everyone and everything.

...and Gates' attutide still hasn't changed since.


and, hey rob, can you answer my question about why Lynn Sweet was planted to ask Obama about this situation? what was the reason? you said she had a reason and I am really curious about what you think the reason was? please?

You want me to explain to you why Obama would like to literally use his pulpit to publicly comment about his friend and make a statement about race?
Sorry, but I'm just as lost as you are about Obama's motivation.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

You want me to explain to you why Obama would like to literally use his pulpit to publicly comment about his friend and make a statement about race?
Sorry, but I'm just as lost as you are about Obama's motivation.

Like I posted previously I think Obama's motivation is to calm the waters. This is exactly what a figure-head of the state should be doing as opposed to getting people engraged. Good political leadership (in part) is about reconciliation between groups. If this is Obama's motivation what is there to disagree with.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Henry Gates Yale application
http://principallypolitical.wordpress.com/2009/07/27/a-changed-man-gates-used-racial-slur-in-college-application/




Seems Prof. Gates has had a chip on his shoulder for a long time.


I always thought 'whitey' was funny -- honkey and cracker are hilarious as well. Names for the dominating ethnic group seem to be perceived more as funny as opposed to insulting or prejorative. Calling it a racial slur (which is literally true seems to miss the point). When Beastie Boys wrote Honkey Rink the context was motivated in a positive direction. Context is everything.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Yeahwho, I have a natural instinct to defend the underdog. So when people are piling on, I almost always play devil's advocate, just to try to get people to see both sides. Basically, I argue because I like to argue.

African Americans are underdogs as well. So are women, blue collar workers, gay people, the homeless, physically or mentally challenged people, physically disfigured people, and others being unfairly repressed for no morally sound reason. Sometimes one cannot take sides based solely on socioeconomic status (prof versus cop) despite a natural desire to do so among some of us (I have been particularly guilty in the past for that one -- engaging in diatribes and over-generalisations against 'the richies' and the harm they have caused).

[RobMoney$]

Like I posted previously I think Obama's motivation is to calm the waters. This is exactly what a figure-head of the state should be doing as opposed to getting people engraged. Good political leadership (in part) is about reconciliation between groups. If this is Obama's motivation what is there to disagree with.


I have a hard time believing he was trying to calm anything when he makes the statement that the white guy acted stupidly.

For the President of the United States to come out publicly against his own civil servant is unheard of, to say the least.


Calling it a racial slur (which is literally true seems to miss the point). When Beastie Boys wrote Honkey Rink the context was motivated in a positive direction. Context is everything.


The Beastie Boys are white. Black people throw the "N" word around all the time and it's somehow acceptable to them. Also, Whitey, Honkey, and Cracker are somehow much more acceptable than the n word and you know it.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

I have a hard time believing he was trying to calm anything when he makes the statement that the white guy acted stupidly.

For the President of the United States to come out publicly against his own civil servant is unheard of, to say the least.





The Beastie Boys are white. Black people throw the "N" word around all the time and it's somehow acceptable to them. Also, Whitey, Honkey, and Cracker are somehow much more acceptable than the n word and you know it.

Leaders of state have to come out against civil servants all the time (e.g., when they do something wrong or when they go on strike preventing critical services). In the past the state has had to come down on civil servants for their treatment of blacks. See this link related to the so-called "Mississippi Burning" trial. (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/FTrials/price&bowers/price&bowers.htm)
As for the racial slurs I think it comes down to context. Lenny Bruce's stand-up routines contained lots of racial slurs and most people did not think he was a racist. The reason that slurs against dominant groups are more tolerable (or acceptable) than slurs against downtrodden groups is that people must naturally endorse the underdog in some circumstances. I do not know really. It is just a guess.

[funk63]

Young person here, can someone summarize what I should learn from this teachable moment?

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Young person here, can someone summarize what I should learn from this teachable moment?

Not sure how young you are but perhaps the most important thing to learn is that Barney (http://www.hitentertainment.com/barney/flash_mx/sites/player.asp) is a good role model and we should all be good to one another.

Barney the loveable purple dinosaur's lyrics:

"I love you You love me
we're a happy family
with a great big hug and a kiss from me to you.
won't you say you love me too"

Maybe they will play Barney's song and America will be much better off (stressed race relations will cease to exist). Then again maybe this whole situation is just a load of bullshit and we should accept the fact that life sucks for political and self-deceptive animals like ourselves. For some reason I do not think that these issues will be raised during the teachable moment -- but the Barney song will be played while they drink a few pints of beer on the taxpayers' buck. ;)

[funk63]

Yeah, didn't think there was anything to learn. Jesus christ 8 pages?

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Yeah, didn't think there was anything to learn. Jesus christ 8 pages?

I do not think the 8 pages are a complete waste. At least we are communicating about something politically current and relevant to our stressed out human existence. The thread started out as a suggestion that the police should be watched closely because they cannot be blindly trusted. Police officers are not always looking out for our best interests. The thread has mutated in a variety of directions (which is healthy) and some interesting issues and debates have emerged. At least this issue is not solely American and confined just to this one isolated point in history -- that would be a slightly wasted 8 pages.

[DroppinScience]

I think it's time to install a new home security system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aylyRfHyDJo) now. (y)

[Michelle*s_Farm]

I think it's time to install a new home security system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aylyRfHyDJo) now. (y)

We definitely have to watch out for Belafonte -- we can't let his "King of Calypso" title fool us :)

[valvano]

Considering Gates' tax issues which have become public following his temper tantrum, he may be an excellent candidate for Obama's cabinet:

http://www.propublica.org/article/foundation-run-by-harvards-gates-is-revising-tax-return-after-questions-727

http://www.webcpa.com/news/Henry-Louis-Gates-Foundation-Revise-Tax-Return-51156-1.html

can he blame this on the "racial stereotyping" as well??

:rolleyes:

[b i o n i c]

coppers twist up a story to frame a white lady for their accident (http://living.aol.com/morning-rush/crooked-cops-today/31186624001?icid=main|main|dl7|link3|http%3A%2F%2F living.aol.com%2Fmorning-rush%2Fcrooked-cops-today%2F31186624001)

because its always about race(y)

[saz]

Just saw someone on my local news suggest that the question was planted by Obama. He was prepared for it.
It was his decision to have this question included.
Lynn Sweet is from Chicago, she was asking the question for a reason.

The problem is it backfired on him BIG TIME.

you mean it was concocted by ann coulter and michelle malkin (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/07/29/ann-coulter-michelle-malkin-looking-wrong-place-for-obama-gates/).

[Bob]

obama's having a fucking bud light???? NOT MY PRESIDENT

[QueenAdrock]

Brett and I were walking around in Old Town Alexandria today and I noticed two security dudes with metal detector wands outside of a restaurant and was like "I wonder if Obama's in there" and he told me "No, he's off having a beer at the White House" but I was half right, turns out that Michelle took the girls out to dinner there while hubby was off drinking crap beer

[Documad]

Having criticized the event, it's only fair for me to admit that all three guys apparently issued eloquent statements after the meeting. I only saw the excerpts but it was better than I feared. Still a tremendous waste of the president's time alas.

[DroppinScience]

Small Beer, Big Hangover (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/opinion/02rich.html?_r=1)