The Joker? [Archive] - Beastie Boys Message Board

Dorothy Wood

08-08-2009, 12:16 AM

i just can't get over how ridiculous and overblown these "socialist" accusations are. obama's policies, even in their non-watered down form would make us less socialist than canada, the UK, france, etc, and even those places aren't really that "socialist". yes, poor people are looked after by the government, but rich people are still allowed to be rich. people still work for money. people still own things. people still buy and sell goods. people are still bound by legally enforceable contracts.

and if obama got what he wanted, we'd still be less socialist than that. and i understand if people disagree with his policies, if they think relatively unrestricted free market capitalism is the way to go, i get that, they're entitled to that opinion, even if i happen to think it's rather dangerous and irresponsible - it's a difference of opinion, great, this is a democracy and will continue to be one, we can have those.

but to spout off idiot bullshit like "death to marxists" and "FASCISM IS COMING (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTzCdY6SqDQ)" and other despicable reactionary bullshit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FHnreAwgHQ) and obama's healthcare will murder the elderly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asaMKCt66a0) and to pass those bullshit lies off as valid public discourse is just, well, i'm upset by this, considering that we are considerably less socialist than the rest of the western world, which is still fundamentally capitalist if i'm not mistaken...?

upsetting

it's really upsetting. I can't stop looking at the "socialism is no joke" facebook page. I "became a fan" so I could comment on the page. When I joined, there were about a 150 fans, now there are over 2,600.

at first I tried to actually talk to people and find out what the matter was, and all of them are just plain afraid...and most are just so fucking stupid, I'm surprised they can actually turn on a computer.

and creepy shit like this I am a loyall Glenn Beck listener and I ask all of you to watch him on Fox News at 5pm est! But, as a former Marine, today was the first day I was ever scared! Why, do you ask? When the DNC, Nancy Palosi, and Boxer come out calling all of these Americans who are asking questions and speaking out at town hall events, a bunch of baught and paid for RNC members, Nazi simpathizers. oh and my favorite, tea bagging rednecks! We have lost our country, and we better get it back! Ladies and gentleman, PLEASE stand up! Tell your friends, bring them over to your house for burgers on the grill and a cold beer. Watch episode after devo'd episode of Glenn and talk about these things that are happening! I hope the White House is reading this, I really do! Because I have faught for my country and I took an oath! "I will uphold the Constitution of the United States of America, of all enimies, both Foriegn and DOMESTIC"!

Welcome everyone, to the Fourth Reich. Fortunately, this one will only last a maximum of four years.

this whole fuckin thing: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/pages/Socialism-Is-No-Joke/246605145124?v=feed&story_fbid=248543605124

and this exchange I had was pretty funny:

Scott Holyk[/URL] I love this poster. Let's keep talking about socialism so that everyone can be truly educated on what socialism is.

Dorothy:
repeating the word "socialism" doesn't equal talking about socialism. do even know what it is or means?

Tue at 8:24pm · Delete · Report

Rebecca Hitt Martin:
we're listening..did anyone catch the Glenn beck show when he was talking about the book "The Art of War" and how it mirrors everything Obama and his administration is doing?

Tue at 8:31pm · Report

Dorothy:
no, what did he say?

Tue at 9:09pm · Delete · Report

Emily Nehring:
Socialism refers to any one of various theories of economic organization advocating state, public or common worker ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a more egalitarian method of compensation.

Sound familiar????

Tue at 9:24pm · Report

dorothy:

yes, but I'm wondering why that is scary or how that would even be possible in a country as large as ours and run and funded by so many private companies?

Tue at 9:27pm · Delete · Report

Leia D. Ralph:
dorothy, so, if you haven't even graduated high school, and I diligently work my way through grad school, you think you are owed the same as me... I don't think so!!! I work for more money, and pay back my student loans and you think you are owed the same equal amount of money, luxuries as me... no, slacker, your not!

Tue at 9:46pm · Report

Leia D. Ralph:
But, I could employ you and you could profit from my capitalism...

Tue at 9:47pm · Report

dorothy:
I think that if you go to grad school and make more money than I do with your atrocious grammar, misuse of terms and short-sightedness, it exposes a major flaw in the capitalist system.

Listen, I'm not a socialist. I work for a small business. capitalism is my bread and butter. I don't hate capitalism. I hate that stupid people can gain success by filling out the proper paperwork on time.

If you were really a capitalist, you would've worked and saved up money to pay for your schooling without getting loans. LOANS ARE A FORM OF SOCIALISM.

Tue at 10:02pm · Delete · Report

Leia D. Ralph:
Without some kind of schooling, you cannot save $40,000 + in order to go to school while raising children and managing a household. Forgive me if I do not take the time to check every word in ever sentence before I hit the comment button... I found that your criticism of my Atrocious grammar and misuse of terms to be quite an attack when you have ... Read Moreno real cause for one, I really do not see the need in such a ridiculous discussion. However, I like mindless drum in between working on assignments. I take my time to work on my assignments and rarely have to use spell check or grammar check. That is reflected in my grades. Thanks for indulging me... I am LMAO!

Tue at 10:29pm · Report

dorothy:
You shouldn't have had children or gone to school if you couldn't have afforded it on your own.

Tue at 10:36pm · Delete · Report

Leia D. Ralph:
I was completely comfortable with the money I was making before my children; however the children made it a necessity to return to school and pursue a higher education. Otherwise I would be living on your tax dollars and receiving food stamps, WIC and other forms of welfare. You don't plan for children, they are a blessing that the good Lord gives you when he feels like it.

Tue at 10:42pm · Report

Lavonne Craze:
So what is it that you do dorothy? No kids, no education? Or did daddy's big bucks take care of all that for you?

Tue at 10:52pm · Report

dorothy:

If you're so staunchly capitalist, Lavonne, why are you vilifying "big bucks"? Isn't that what capitalism is supposed to ensure? The right to make "big bucks"?

no answer after that...and I just left them alone because they started in with the abortion stuff and I wasn't in the mood to talk abortion with half wits.

Echewta

08-08-2009, 01:12 AM

Bravo Dorothy. Awesome stuff!

yeahwho

08-08-2009, 03:03 AM

The really spooky thing is the Joker is an anarchist. I mean if your going to use his image and compare that image to socialism, well, you've missed the mark by quite a bit.

The Joker is nowhere near being a socialist. No matter how hard you try and twist it.

It takes a real punch to the intellect to look at that facebook page, you're a brave soul Dorothy Wood.

Bob

08-08-2009, 03:07 AM

yeah now that you mention it, i do kind of wonder what the joker has to do with anything. socialism requires a rather staunch belief in central government, but the joker just wanted to watch the world burn

he did blow up a hospital though - maybe it's an allusion to obama's sinister desire to cull the elderly? i don't really know...

yeahwho

08-08-2009, 03:12 AM

That Glenn Beck youtube you posted, that was very joker like.

yeahwho

08-08-2009, 03:20 AM

The other thing about this poster that is very disturbing is the white face makeup. WTF is that, I'm not on any motherfuckers side who says that doesn't drum up an ugly past in American history.

I'm not black, but if I were I'd let you know I find that shit offensive. Fuck it I find it insulting and racial, without really having to think about it more than a minute.

Bob

08-08-2009, 03:31 AM

That Glenn Beck youtube you posted, that was very joker like.

glenn beck (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/223279/march-31-2009/the-10-31-project) is stunning (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-july-29-2009/so-you-think-you-can-douche)

and i should say preemptively that yes, i do get all my glenn beck information through the daily show filter - the man disgusts me so much that i really can't ever watch or listen to him. even the clips on the daily show kind of get my gag reflex a-triggering, he's just that loathesome. i mean he hams it up so much and he's so clearly faking his emotions but FUCK, people watch him and they get all teary eyed and say "lead me glenn, lead me, show me the truth" and god i need to go throw up excuse me for a minute

alright i'm back, fuck glenn beck

yeahwho

08-08-2009, 06:51 AM

Maybe in the next installment of Batman they can write in an arch enemy of the people who happens to be a socialist. This villain can sort of be like the Riddler but instead he uses limericks.

If you get ill
We provide the the pill

Knuckles

08-08-2009, 10:39 AM

it's really upsetting. I can't stop looking at the "socialism is no joke" facebook page. I "became a fan" so I could comment on the page. When I joined, there were about a 150 fans, now there are over 2,600.

at first I tried to actually talk to people and find out what the matter was, and all of them are just plain afraid...and most are just so fucking stupid, I'm surprised they can actually turn on a computer.

and creepy shit like this

this whole fuckin thing: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/pages/Socialism-Is-No-Joke/246605145124?v=feed&story_fbid=248543605124

and this exchange I had was pretty funny:

Scott Holyk[/URL] I love this poster. Let's keep talking about socialism so that everyone can be truly educated on what socialism is.

Dorothy:
repeating the word "socialism" doesn't equal talking about socialism. do even know what it is or means?

Tue at 8:24pm · Delete · Report

Rebecca Hitt Martin:
we're listening..did anyone catch the Glenn beck show when he was talking about the book "The Art of War" and how it mirrors everything Obama and his administration is doing?

Tue at 8:31pm · Report

Dorothy:
no, what did he say?

Tue at 9:09pm · Delete · Report

Emily Nehring:
Socialism refers to any one of various theories of economic organization advocating state, public or common worker ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a more egalitarian method of compensation.

Sound familiar????

Tue at 9:24pm · Report

dorothy:

yes, but I'm wondering why that is scary or how that would even be possible in a country as large as ours and run and funded by so many private companies?

Tue at 9:27pm · Delete · Report

Leia D. Ralph:
dorothy, so, if you haven't even graduated high school, and I diligently work my way through grad school, you think you are owed the same as me... I don't think so!!! I work for more money, and pay back my student loans and you think you are owed the same equal amount of money, luxuries as me... no, slacker, your not!

Tue at 9:46pm · Report

Leia D. Ralph:
But, I could employ you and you could profit from my capitalism...

Tue at 9:47pm · Report

dorothy:
I think that if you go to grad school and make more money than I do with your atrocious grammar, misuse of terms and short-sightedness, it exposes a major flaw in the capitalist system.

Listen, I'm not a socialist. I work for a small business. capitalism is my bread and butter. I don't hate capitalism. I hate that stupid people can gain success by filling out the proper paperwork on time.

If you were really a capitalist, you would've worked and saved up money to pay for your schooling without getting loans. LOANS ARE A FORM OF SOCIALISM.

Tue at 10:02pm · Delete · Report

Leia D. Ralph:
Without some kind of schooling, you cannot save $40,000 + in order to go to school while raising children and managing a household. Forgive me if I do not take the time to check every word in ever sentence before I hit the comment button... I found that your criticism of my Atrocious grammar and misuse of terms to be quite an attack when you have ... Read Moreno real cause for one, I really do not see the need in such a ridiculous discussion. However, I like mindless drum in between working on assignments. I take my time to work on my assignments and rarely have to use spell check or grammar check. That is reflected in my grades. Thanks for indulging me... I am LMAO!

Tue at 10:29pm · Report

dorothy:
You shouldn't have had children or gone to school if you couldn't have afforded it on your own.

Tue at 10:36pm · Delete · Report

Leia D. Ralph:
I was completely comfortable with the money I was making before my children; however the children made it a necessity to return to school and pursue a higher education. Otherwise I would be living on your tax dollars and receiving food stamps, WIC and other forms of welfare. You don't plan for children, they are a blessing that the good Lord gives you when he feels like it.

Tue at 10:42pm · Report

Lavonne Craze:
So what is it that you do dorothy? No kids, no education? Or did daddy's big bucks take care of all that for you?

Tue at 10:52pm · Report

dorothy:

If you're so staunchly capitalist, Lavonne, why are you vilifying "big bucks"? Isn't that what capitalism is supposed to ensure? The right to make "big bucks"?

no answer after that...and I just left them alone because they started in with the abortion stuff and I wasn't in the mood to talk abortion with half wits.

This was fantastic. (y)
Thanks for posting it.

DroppinScience

08-08-2009, 11:49 AM

RobMoney$

08-08-2009, 12:18 PM

Outside the DC Metro stations, there are sometimes people giving out pamphlets saying "Stop Obama's Nazi Health Care Plan." When they offer it to me, I just shake my head and continue walking, but if I see them again, I seriously may tell them to look up "Nazi" in a dictionary before they go off spouting the word towards anything they may not like. Then again, many of these people are Lyndon LaRouche people, and in all fairness, he believes EVERYONE is a Nazi (Bush, Schwarzenegger, etc.). :rolleyes:

(!) So even in your dreams, you're pompous.

yeahwho

08-08-2009, 02:11 PM

Yeah, the racial accusations have already been drawn.

I really don't believe this has anything to do with race.

(!) So even in your dreams, you're pompous.

You call Droppin Science pompous?

Yet automatically you've dismissed the racist accusations, why?

DroppinScience

08-08-2009, 04:43 PM

(!) So even in your dreams, you're pompous.

Oh no, I'm wide awake when this happens. Wanna join me at the Archives/Navy Memorial station (Yellow or Green line) and we can have a frank discussion with the people who want to stop "Obama's Nazi Health Care Plan"?

saz

08-08-2009, 06:21 PM

these people are nothing more than knuckle-dragging, mouthbreathing neaderthal meatheads, who are up in arms because there is a black man in the white house. it comes down to nothing but sheer ignorance and hatred. they are bonafide racists.

speaking of glen beck, not only did he have a total breakdown (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA7-BvVDV10) on the air, but he's also talked on his radio show about killing michael moore (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctwqnkWdCJg), and joked about poisoning nancy pelosi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAii_MxDklw). he's such an irresponsible lowlife. all this garbage does is potenially provoke his crazy, wingnut audience into doing something dangerous.

RobMoney$

08-08-2009, 07:02 PM

Oh no, I'm wide awake when this happens. Wanna join me at the Archives/Navy Memorial station (Yellow or Green line) and we can have a frank discussion with the people who want to stop "Obama's Nazi Health Care Plan"?

1. You said you just keep walking, but if I see them again...
Too funny.

2. Do you really think that DC is the only place these guys work? I see them in Philly too. I do give them respect for standing on a corner in a predominantly black area and handing out their Obama-Hitler propaganda crap tho.

yeahwho

08-08-2009, 07:37 PM

1. You said you just keep walking, but if I see them again...
Too funny.

2. Do you really think that DC is the only place these guys work? I see them in Philly too. I do give them respect for standing on a corner in a predominantly black area and handing out their Obama-Hitler propaganda crap tho.

Are they wearing Obama Joker T-Shirts? Both in Philly and DC?

kaiser soze

08-08-2009, 08:50 PM

speaking of glen beck, not only did he have a total breakdown (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA7-BvVDV10)

This is where all his advertisers should drop him like a brick, I think he has lost a couple in the past few days.

yeahwho

08-08-2009, 09:17 PM

I just don't get it. We're not looking for WMD, we haven't been threatened or attacked by a foreign country.

A discussion on heathcare turns people into complete fucking racist, raving lunatic morons? I think of all the positive things I accomplish during the course of a day then I see this fellow Glenn Beck on the posted clips and just hang my head in disbelief. Then I checkout that Socialism is no Joke "facebook" page, these people must have a hard time with every motor function they're going through each and every moment of their pathetic loser lives.

Idiots, complete unabashed idiots. The propaganda that FOX news is letting out on an international level is more hurtful to America and it's citizens that I have ever seen in my lifetime.

saz

08-08-2009, 09:28 PM

Healthcare reform sparks meeting mayhem
Posted By: Beau Zimmer

10 Connects News
Tampa Bay, Florida

Tampa, Florida-- Fireworks were expected, but organizers of a town hall meeting on health care reform were caught off guard Thursday night by just how explosive the issue became.

Hundreds showed up for the 6:00 forum held at the Children's Board of Hillsborough County on Palm Avenue in Tampa. The auditorium which holds around 250 people, filled up so quickly eventually Tampa Police were ordered to begin turning people away.

Inside, U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor of Tampa and State Rep. Betty Reed barely made it through opening remarks before angry protestors began shouting and interrupting their remarks.

Moments later, violence broke out just outside the main auditorium doors, prompting police to close off the meeting room. A freelance photojournalist was among those roughed up suffering damage to both his glasses and camera equipment.

"That's the most violent anyone has been towards me," said Mark Bishop, who drove from Orlando to video tape the event. "It was surprising to say the least."

At least one person was treated for minor injuries following the altercation and could be seen on video with a shirt partially torn off his body.

Outside, both those for and against President Obama's health care reform ideas chanted and yelled, at times banging on the outside of the auditorium windows. Some argued face to face in the parking lot, shouting and screaming at each other as police officers looked on.

"We walk a fine line between freedom of speech and public safety," said one of the commanding Tampa Police officers on scene who indicated no arrests were made.

Not long into the meeting, Rep. Castor was escorted out of the building after being encouraged by an event organizer to leave. It appeared the congresswoman gave up on trying to get her points across after the crowd inside grew unruly.

Those on all sides of the issue say people were so passionate and outspoken about healthcare reform, it was hard for any one person to speak.

"They think they're exercising their right to free speech, but they're only exercising their right to disrupt civil discourse," said George Guthrie, who drove from Largo to attend Thursday night's meeting.

Andrew Reder, a recent college graduate against Obama's ideas for health care reform, was among those yelling during the meeting.

"There were clearly people who were very, very upset," said Reder, who feels some people were shut out of the meeting. "People are concerned about the direction of the county right now."

But Reder, who eventually made his way inside, admits very little was accomplished in discussing the actual issue.

"Somewhere in all the screaming, no one got heard."

Tampa Police eventually began ordering anyone not inside the meeting, to leave the Children's Board property. Journalists covering the protests outside were among those told they could not stay.

Event organizers say they grossly underestimated the turnout, but plan on rescheduling the event for a bigger venue in the future, in hopes of a more civil discussion where everyone can have their opinion heard.

Anticipating problems at health care forums, Florida Democratic Party Chair Karen Thurman released the following statement today:

"Throughout the summer, we have been reaching out to Floridians to engage in an important debate on the future our health care system. We have heard story after story from people who are struggling to get the care they need. "Recently, their thoughtful discussions are being interrupted by angry mobs - well funded and organized by Washington special interests - attempting to drown out the voices of the hard-working Floridians who are desperate for health insurance reform. These groups are not concerned about Americans' access to quality heath care, but are extreme ideologues, only interested in 'breaking' the President and thwarting the change Americans voted for last November."

from the st. petersburg times (http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/article1025529.ece):

Instead, hundreds of vocal critics turned out, many of them saying they had been spurred on through the Tampa 912 activist group promoted by conservative radio and television personality Glenn Beck. Others had received e-mails from the Hillsborough Republican party that urged people to speak out against the plan and offered talking points to challenge supporters.

The spectacle at the Children's Board in Ybor City sounded more like a wrestling cage match than a panel discussion on national policy, and it was just the latest example of a health care meeting disrupted by livid protesters.

from the tampa tribune (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/aug/06/061949/protests-passions-roiling-town-hall-meeting-health/news-breaking/):

Several of the protesters' signs bore an image of Obama with his face painted as the Joker, an image that drew protests of racism locally when it appeared on a Web site thought to be associated with the Pinellas Republican party.

There were at least two scuffles between protesters trying to enter and organizers manning the doors.

One of those involved in a scuffle, Randy Arthur, of Oldsmar said he was injured by those manning the doors and said he would file a police report... Randy Arthur, who owns an air conditioning service company, later talked to police officers, his knit shirt ripped and a few scratches visible on his chest. "They slammed him into the wall,'' Kathy Arthur said.

video footage from kathy castor's town hall meeting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX4F_cb9AXk)

from politico (http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0809/Another_Dem_overrun_by_protesters_at_town_hall.htm l):

Rep. Ann Kirkpatrick of Arizona is the latest Democrat overrun by protesters at a local town hall event.

Sources say the protesters showed up after a robocall -- it's unclear from whom -- went out to Arizona voters encouraging them to show up at the event. The event was supposed to involve one on one chats with Kirkpatrick, a freshman member of Congress.

Kirkpatrick was unable to get the event started and canceled it.

"I am disappointed that the event was disrupted by a small but vocal group," Kirkpatrick said. "I grew up in Greater Arizona, and I remember the days when folks who disagreed would do so respectfully and were still able to work together on the important issues to find solutions."

kaiser soze

08-08-2009, 09:42 PM

IT was so quiet with the cost (in dollars and lives) of war

The Patriot Act (I thought if these people want their country free from big government they should have started there)

And yes the media manipulation of these people's minds. It is massive, it is vicious, it is unrequited - or will someone politiely ask Limbaugh to stop the Nazi vitriol?

By the way, Prescott Bush (GWB's granddaddy) did business with the Nazis.

Don't get me started on the fear mongering and gun hugging. Jesus chill the fuck out!

If this was bush's country those people would have been met with pepper spray and billy clubs.

Bob

08-08-2009, 09:44 PM

yes, let's protest healthcare reform by sending people to the hospital. this is the best idea

saz

08-08-2009, 09:48 PM

obama-allied unions threatened with gun violence for town hall participation (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/07/obama-allied-unions-threa_n_254204.html):

One of the country's largest unions has been hit by a wave of hostile calls and even death threats from people upset with its involvement (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/06/unions-to-take-on-conserv_n_252720.html) in town-hall health care debates.

The Service Employers International Union was, as one aide put it, "deluged" with calls on Friday after several conservative media outlets accused the organization of trying to assault demonstrators who had showed up to protest Obama's health care agenda. Making it even scarier for union employees, the address of the union's St. Louis headquarters was mentioned on air by conservative talk show host Rush Limbaugh (http://mediamatters.org/limbaughwire/2009/08/07).

Callers who reached both the front desk and the communications department compared the union officials to Nazis, union aides say. On Twitter (http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23tlot), organizers of the town hall protest urged people to take pictures and write down the license plate numbers of attending SEIU officials. More alarming than anything else, angry callers and protesters pledged to take up arms against the union.

"If ACORN/SEIU attends these meetings for disruptive purposes, and you have a license to carry....carry," read one tweet.

"I suggest you tell your people to calm down, act like American citizens, and stop trying to repress people's First Amendment rights," one caller warned (http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/labor/seiu-gets-threatening-phone-call-youre-gonna-come-up-against-the-second-amendment/). "That, or you all are gonna come up against the Second Amendment." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPMqVIFe7z4)

The union had actually put up a petition (http://action.seiu.org/page/s/townhall) on Thursday for its organizers and members to attend these town hall events and "honor the long-standing American tradition of town hall meetings and public forums to allow citizens to participate in our democracy." Things got a bit hairy during the evening, however, when the SEIU helped turn away people at a forum in Tampa Bay, Florida, and a near riot ensued. Similarly, in St. Louis, an SEIU staffer was arrested (http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2009/08/07/town_halls/) after a scuffle ensued with protesters at a town hall event with Rep. Russ Carnahan (D-Mo.).

The SEIU wasn't the only Obama ally receiving threats on Friday. An official of the AFL-CIO, which has pledged to counter conservative protests at these town hall events across the country, said that union received angry emails throughout the day as well -- mostly accusations that it was promoting communism and socialism.

unions receive increasingly scary threats of violence for town hall participation (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/08/unions-receive-increasing_n_254704.html):

Union officials continued to receive a barrage of threats on Friday evening and into Saturday punctuated by warnings that if organizers were sent to counter-demonstrate at health care town halls they would be met with violence.

An official with the AFL-CIO, a federation of labor organizations, passed on what he described as a "pretty direct threat" to those union hands who were showing up to balance out anti-Obama demonstrations being waged at local Democratic forums.

"I will be going to a local town hall this weekend, all you union members BEWARE!" an emailer wrote at 9:40 Saturday morning. "We will be waiting for you. better make sure you have arrangements with your local ER. today is the day when the goon meets the gun. see you there."

The email was first sent to the media-watching organization Newshounds before being passed to Eddie Vale, a spokesman for the AFL-CIO. The IP address used to post the email was traced back to Georgia.

The AFL-CIO isn't the only labor organization to be on the receiving end of threats of violence. During a day in which a woman called up its national office threatening to use her Second Amendment rights should her First Amendment rights be repressed, officials at the Service Employees International Union continued to be deluged with emails and phone calls with ominous undertones.

An official with the SEIU said she had received 50 such emails, including the following one, which was edited to make suitable for publication.

You socialist f---s have the nerve to say stop the violence at the town hall meetings when they weren't violent until you p---ies showed up because your n----- leader obama said to?????? When we have ours in Racine, Wi, I want you there. I want one of your little b----- to put his hands on this Marine. I want one of you to look or talk to me wrong. I'll be the last thing your ignorant faux body guards will remember for a very long time. You can f---ing guarantee that.

The escalating language and threats have caused union officials to grow increasingly worried about the possibility of serious violence at these town hall gatherings. On Thursday, a scuffle broke out outside a town hall in St. Louis, resulting in the arrest of an SEIU official and the injury of several participants. That same evening a near riot erupted in Tampa Bay after union hands tried to prevent an overflowing crowd from storming a town hall gathering.

Lawmakers, too, are feeling the heat to keep these forums civil. A reader initialed B.W. wrote the Huffington Post that during a town hall in Plymouth, Indiana, Rep. Joe Donnelly, (D-Ind.) was forced to try out alternative measures to keep the interruptions and demonstrations at a minimum.

"Instead of addressing the crowd and taking questions, his staff had every one fill out a card with a number and he met with people face to face," the reader wrote. "There were more people than time but at least 32 people spoke directly to him out of earshot of the rest of the crowd. The event had people with differing views on health care but remained very respectful. It was encouraging."

Bob

08-08-2009, 09:50 PM

i really wish people could make up their mind about whether obama's a nazi or a socialist. you can't be both!

saz

08-08-2009, 10:08 PM

frank schaeffer summarizes it very well (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E1SLJgATvM)

kaiser soze

08-08-2009, 10:11 PM

i really wish people could make up their mind about whether obama's a nazi or a socialist. you can't be both!

What are you dumb?

He's a racist muslin!

They're the wurst!

yeahwho

08-08-2009, 10:14 PM

I give things about 48 hours at this pace then some violence will breakout. This sort of idiocy has always involves a physical skirmish at minimum. The whole lunacy of taking your Country back.... back from what?

Here is Bill Maher's comment from last nights show,

New Rule: Just because a country elects a smart president doesn't make it a smart country. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/new-rule-smart-president_b_253996.html)

And before I go about demonstrating how, sadly, easy it is to prove the dumbness dragging down our country, let me just say that ignorance has life and death consequences. On the eve of the Iraq War, 69% of Americans thought Saddam Hussein was personally involved in 9/11. Four years later, 34% still did. Or take the health care debate we're presently having: members of Congress have recessed now so they can go home and "listen to their constituents." An urge they should resist because their constituents don't know anything. At a recent town-hall meeting in South Carolina, a man stood up and told his Congressman to "keep your government hands off my Medicare," which is kind of like driving cross country to protest highways.

I'm the bad guy for saying it's a stupid country, yet polls show that a majority of Americans cannot name a single branch of government, or explain what the Bill of Rights is. 24% could not name the country America fought in the Revolutionary War. More than two-thirds of Americans don't know what's in Roe v. Wade. Two-thirds don't know what the Food and Drug Administration does. Some of this stuff you should be able to pick up simply by being alive. You know, like the way the Slumdog kid knew about cricket.

Bit I contend to my own personal kneejerk belief, all the anger being bantered around by very confused looking people at these town hall meetings is going to become violent.

And that I'm sure will make Glenn Beck a slobbering tear eyed idiot.

Bob

08-08-2009, 10:22 PM

What are you dumb?

He's a racist muslin!

They're the wurst!

and he's not even an ameerican ciitizin!

kaiser soze

08-08-2009, 10:35 PM

oooh

he's an illeeeegal!

How about Palin's claim of Obama's "death panel" on her Facebook

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/08/08/2009-08-08_sarah_palin_facebook_posting_claims_obama_healt h_care_would_create_a_death_panel.html

"The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care," she wrote.

"Such a system is downright evil."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/08/08/2009-08-08_sarah_palin_facebook_posting_claims_obama_healt h_care_would_create_a_death_panel.html#ixzz0NeKznc NA

And downright fictional, according to Obama, who said "political point-scorers" are spreading misleading information in an attempt to torpedo reform.

"Let me start by dispelling the outlandish rumors that reform will promote euthanasia, cut Medicaid, or bring about a government takeover of health care," Obama said.

"That's simply not true."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/08/08/2009-08-08_sarah_palin_facebook_posting_claims_obama_healt h_care_would_create_a_death_panel.html#ixzz0NeLBIj TH

Talk about exploiting your child...again....and again....and again

I guess it was ok for her to cart her very young Down Syndrome child around the country from cold to warm climate, through airport and campaign stop.

Talk about CLAss

Bob

08-08-2009, 10:42 PM

"death panel". jesus fucking christ

universal health care will not put the elderly out to pasture. see, for example...every single country with universal health care. canadians, what happens when your old people go to the hospital?

where did this rumor come from? why do people buy it? WHY ARE ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES PERPETUATING IT? if i understand it, the fear is that some bureaucrat will be looking at a spreadsheet and be saying "well the elderly have a lot of health problems and if we crunch the numbers, we find that it will be very expensive to provide them with what they need" but hello, that's what actuaries already do! my mom's one! i know! old people don't need to worry about being euthanized under universal health care any more than they already do under the current system.

saz

08-08-2009, 11:08 PM

some interesting comments from one of the news stories:

I always find it interesting that opponents to health care reform argue that it will be the "death to all of us" or "it will restrict our choices" or "medical decisions will be made by bureaucrats".

It is the current unregulated capitalistic private insurance companies who are actually fulfilling their worst nightmare right now. "Death to us all" - private insurance companies are literally killing patients right now by denying lifesaving care like in the case of Cigna's denial of Natalie Sarkisyan's care.

"It will restrict our choices" which is exactly what our private insurers are doing. I have private coverage myself as a medical professional through my hospital who employs me. I'm restricted to a list of doctors I can see and also to only 4 hospitals in the local Tampa Bay area and if I seek medical care outside of this my insurer will put a majority of the financial cost on me so if I want somewhat affordable medical care I'm forced into their restrictive measures.

"Medical decisions will be made by bureaucrats" - in the private insurance market medical decisions aren't made by myself or my doctor but rather by bureaucrats (executives and internal business analysts) from my private insurers when they decide what is covered and what is not.

Healthcare reform would put a stop to all this and I've actually researched for hours on what the best way to achieve this is. Here's my solutions - http://bit.ly/9QLV8

The Notorious LOL

08-09-2009, 12:01 PM

I love people who toss the word "socialist" around without having a clear understanding of what socialism actually is.

The Notorious LOL

08-09-2009, 12:05 PM

Futhermore, dude was essentially handed a pile of shit and a can of shoe polish when he took office. Anyone who expects massive improvement in 200+ days is ridiculous.

RobMoney$

08-09-2009, 01:00 PM

...and proceeded to fuck the situation up exponentially by giving away a trillion dollars in stimulus money which is achieving very little.
And then created the cash-for-clunkers program, which although is a great program, was out of money in less than 2 months.

And now wants to spend another trillion on a socialized healthcare program.

And some wonder why people are finding reason for pause?

Suggesting Obama isn't to blame for anything because it's only the first 200 days is just as foolish as the people you're mocking for blaming him for everything.
I'm not really expecting a "massive improvement in 200 days", but not going on a fucking spending spree when you can't afford to pay this month's rent wouldn't be such a bad idear.

Dorothy Wood

08-09-2009, 01:13 PM

RobMoney$

08-09-2009, 01:22 PM

well...as much as I don't really agree with focusing so much on the damn car industry all the time, the cash for clunkers thing totally worked. it just worked faster than anybody thought.

I agree.
They totally underestimated tho.

Does the cash for clunkers fiasco give you pause about the government getting into healthcare?

Dorothy Wood

08-09-2009, 01:56 PM

I agree.
They totally underestimated tho.

Does the cash for clunkers fiasco give you pause about the government getting into healthcare?

well, if you agree that it worked, you can't really call it a fiasco can you?

I'm not worried about the government getting into healthcare. It's already in there. I think that there are a lot of problems with healthcare and it's too much of a for-profit business when it shouldn't be.

I mean, people are worried about having no choices...but I don't really have choices with my health plan. I mean, I have various doctors to choose from, but I can't pick any doctor...they have to be a part of my plan. and I guess I could reject my employer-provided coverage and buy my own for 3 times as much if there was a doctor I really wanted to see...but how would I even know that?

I don't know, I think people are under the impression that they have more choice than they really do, and that under a government program, they'd have those non-existant choices taken away.

and anyway, obama's not doing away with private coverage. just creating a public option.

Echewta

08-09-2009, 03:02 PM

and anyway, obama's not doing away with private coverage. just creating a public option.

(!)

yeahwho

08-09-2009, 03:12 PM

well, if you agree that it worked, you can't really call it a fiasco can you?

I'm not worried about the government getting into healthcare. It's already in there. I think that there are a lot of problems with healthcare and it's too much of a for-profit business when it shouldn't be.

I mean, people are worried about having no choices...but I don't really have choices with my health plan. I mean, I have various doctors to choose from, but I can't pick any doctor...they have to be a part of my plan. and I guess I could reject my employer-provided coverage and buy my own for 3 times as much if there was a doctor I really wanted to see...but how would I even know that?

I don't know, I think people are under the impression that they have more choice than they really do, and that under a government program, they'd have those non-existant choices taken away.

and anyway, obama's not doing away with private coverage. just creating a public option.

People have been stirred up by organized efforts by various self interested groups (http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/52798952.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aUUsA), to the point of sounding like morons. I've had insurance the past few years that is excellent, if I want I can keep it. If I don't want to I can change... if the shit hits the fan I can still be covered by insurance.

The below from Frank Rich @ NYTimes (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/opinion/09rich.html?_r=1)today...

As Democrats have pointed out, the angry hecklers disrupting town-hall meetings convened by members of Congress are not always ordinary citizens engaging in spontaneous grass-roots protests or even G.O.P. operatives, but proxies for corporate lobbyists. One group facilitating the screamers is FreedomWorks, which is run by the former Congressman Dick Armey, now a lobbyist at the DLA Piper law firm. Medicines Company, a global pharmaceutical business, has paid DLA Piper more than $6 million in lobbying fees in the five years Armey has worked there.

I think it's better to pace yourself on a policy as important as healthcare, not come in screaming your brains out with organized protests. Fuck the USA is killing people in the middle east with real death panels for a billion dollars a week, prioritize.

RobMoney$

08-09-2009, 05:03 PM

No doubt, the cash for clunkers program is a popular one, but popularity isn't the standard I use when determining whether a government program is being run well. Everybody loves it because they feel like they're getting free money.
Call me crazy, but taking tax money to give to people to make a bad financial decision to support an industry that has a bad business model just seems like a bad idea to me.

I mean if it's soo great, why stop with cars? Why not houses, boats, vacations, washing machines, computers, ect? That would really stimulate things.
And why stop at $4500, why not $20,000. Cars would be flying out of the dealerships then.
The larger the handout, the more likely people are to take advantage of the program, thus the more "successful" it will be.

Don't I recall you posting about only having an old analog TV, Dorothy?Why not cash for clunker TV's? I mean I'd love to trade in my old 50"1080i HDTV for a nice new 50" 1080p model.

Giving away free money will usually help make someone pretty popular, but I don't think it's the best idea, long-term.
I'm setting the betting line at $50 trillion Obama will spend before he's done.

In the end, I think we should just call it what it is,...ANOTHER AUTO BAILOUT. But I'm sure some tree-hugging nit-wit will point out the fact that they're taking our money to do all kinds of wasteful things with it, like making bombs that they use to kill people with.

yeahwho

08-09-2009, 05:19 PM

In the end, I think we should just call it what it is,...ANOTHER AUTO BAILOUT. But I'm sure some tree-hugging nit-wit will point out the fact that they're taking our money to do all kinds of wasteful things with it, like making bombs that they use to kill people with.

Do you really sound like this in person?

RobMoney$

08-09-2009, 06:50 PM

You were totally gonna post about money spent on some defense measure until you read that, weren't you?

kaiser soze

08-09-2009, 06:58 PM

Well you can't argue with the fact that wasting money on your own country rather than squandering it on two failed wars is still a better idea.

I can't wait for my girlfriend's conservative brother takes advantage of the cash for clunkers (he's been driving around his mom's rotting mini van). I will ask him how it feels to be a socialist.

RobMoney$

08-09-2009, 07:28 PM

yeahwho

08-09-2009, 07:36 PM

You were totally gonna post about money spent on some defense measure until you read that, weren't you?

No.

I corn holed a tree last night at the local park.

kaiser soze

08-09-2009, 09:22 PM

Defense, in the case of the US, is clearly set forth as a responsibility of the Federal Government in the Constitution.

Cash for Clunker programs? Not so much.

LOL @ using defense spending to justify every frivolous entitlement program that comes along.

Ah yes the "We must spend billions for war meme".

It is disturbing that you think an illegal war is money (your and my taxes) worthwhile spent. Please prove that Iraq and Afghanistan are much larger successes than Cash for Clunkers.

At least nobody is being killed through this program, plus I might add people with working vehicles can become working citizens, people feel better about their status with improved mobility, and an industry that has helped build this country can keep it's head above water just a little bit longer.

Tell it to your grandchildren that the war has been a great investment, tell it to the dead.

RobMoney$

08-09-2009, 09:56 PM

This is where you and I fundamentally and wholeheartedly part ways on the policy of the US government, kaiser.

I, along with every other conservative, hold the belief that the Government isn't there to insure certain businesses remain operating. That's called capitalism.
We do believe that one of the few things that government is there to insure is the defense of our nation, in other words to run a fully operational army for the purpose of defending ourselves.

Now the validity of the Iraq and Afghan wars is absolutely debatable, but that's an entirely different issue.

kaiser soze

08-09-2009, 11:33 PM

So let me get this straight

You believe that Capitalism and a Democratic Government or Republic (whatever you prefer) are not connected, have no influence on each other and should be just as separate as church and state. There is not such thing as lobbying, there is no such thing as federal and state subsidies, tax provisions, and most importantly ears in the government buildings who believe the powers

You also believe that the military complex and the wars it fights with your tax dollars has no vested interest in Capitalism, just protecting you and me from the big meanies? That is it. Defense is Defense, it has nothing to do with corporate interest, boosting economies, removing competition, or taking control of resources.

You also believe that the government has never given the elite an advantage nor entitlement. You believe that Capitalism is strictly a dog eat dog construct completely separate from the principles of national defense.

How many budgets have there been where the government and capitalism didn't have some kind of influence on each other?

Please provide a government free capitalist model please.

RobMoney$

08-09-2009, 11:41 PM

kaiser soze

08-10-2009, 12:18 AM

Be as minimal in it's dealing with their, ehem I mean our money

But keep the defense up. Should they also make their own weapons?

What good is it to defend something you can't have influence over?

Schmeltz

08-10-2009, 08:04 AM

I believe our government should be as minimal as possible.

Then in that case you have no business deriding the people who take pains to point out the excessive spending your government lavishes on "defending" your country. In fact you should be on the front lines with them. How do you expect to have a government that could be called "minimal" when it spends more on its armies than every other country in the world put together?

It still puzzles me that you can so freely castigate people who want to spend money on helping their countrymen instead of on killing strangers on the other side of the globe. It makes no sense to me. But then conservatism in general seems increasingly distant from common sense in this day and age.

saz

08-10-2009, 03:18 PM

brad miller death threat: capitol police looking into phone call made to congressman over health care reform

WASHINGTON — A North Carolina congressman who supports an overhaul of the health care system had his life threatened by a caller upset that he was not holding a public forum on the proposal, his office said Friday.

Democratic Rep. Brad Miller received the call Monday, one of hundreds the congressman's office has fielded demanding town-hall meetings on the health care proposal, said his spokeswoman, LuAnn Canipe. She said the callers were "trying to instigate town halls so they can show up and disrupt."

"We had one of those kind of calls that escalated to what we considered a threat" on the congressman's life, said Canipe. "These are some strong-arm tactics, and we are trying to deal with and trying to talk to people in good faith about health care reform."

Democratic lawmakers expected protests and demonstrations as they headed back to their states and districts over the August recess to sell health care reform legislation. Earlier this week, White House officials counseled Democratic senators on coping with disruptions at public events this summer.

In the week since the House began its break, several town-hall meetings have already been disrupted by noisy demonstrators.

The latest occurrence was at back-to-back town hall meetings held by Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich., which got so raucous police had to escort people out.

Dingell vowed Friday to push ahead with Democratic-led efforts to extend coverage to all, saying he won't be intimidated by protesters.

"I am eager to talk about the bill with anyone who wants to discuss it. That doesn't open the door to everyone who wants to demagogue the discussion," Dingell said in a statement.

The boos, jeers and shouts of "Shame on you!" at the events in a gym in Romulus, Mich., mirror what other Democrats are encountering around the country. Activists have shown up at town-hall meetings held recently by Arlen Specter, D-Pa. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., was greeted by about 200 protesters at an event in Denver, about half supporting Democrats and half opposed.

In Saratoga Springs, N.Y., about 20 protesters showed up at an event held by Democratic Rep. Scott Murphy to let him know they oppose the health care plans in Washington. They carried signs saying: "Obamacare Seniors beware! Rationing is here," and "If socialized medicine is best ... why didn't Ted Kennedy go to Canada?"

The episodes have drawn widespread media attention, and Republicans have seized on them as well as polls showing a decline in support for President Barack Obama and his agenda as evidence that public support is lacking for his signature legislation.

Pushing back, Democrats have accused Republicans of sanctioning mob tactics, and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., accused protesters earlier this week of trying to sabotage the democratic process.

Miller never had plans to hold a town-hall meeting during the August recess, Canipe said. Instead, he was sitting down with smaller groups of people to discuss the plan. During one of those smaller gatherings on Friday, hundreds of people from a group called Triangle Conservatives peacefully protested at Miller's Raleigh office.

The threatening caller, when told by a staffer that Miller was not planning a meeting, claimed the congressman didn't want to meet with people face to face because he knew it would cost him his life, according to Canipe. The staffer then asked if the caller was making a threat. The caller, said Canipe, replied that there are a lot of angry people out there.

The U.S. Capitol Police confirmed Friday they were looking into a threat against a congressman, but wouldn't provide further details.

___

Associated Press Writer Erica Werner contributed to this report.

yeahwho

08-10-2009, 04:17 PM

brad miller death threat: capitol police looking into phone call made to congressman over health care reform

just call me nostradamus or nostril-dumbass (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=1688201&postcount=39)... course it really isn't that hard to call when so many ill-informed corporate brainwashed morons foment together, eventually someone is going to go berserk.

yeahwho

08-10-2009, 04:31 PM

Futhermore, dude was essentially handed a pile of shit and a can of shoe polish when he took office. Anyone who expects massive improvement in 200+ days is ridiculous.

That is a astute observation, I don't feel sorry for Obama he knew what he was getting into last summer when Bush's economical nightmare collapsed right in front of the planet.

Obama took the shit sandwich out of our mouths- but it's still on the table.

RobMoney$

08-10-2009, 06:28 PM

Then in that case you have no business deriding the people who take pains to point out the excessive spending your government lavishes on "defending" your country. In fact you should be on the front lines with them. How do you expect to have a government that could be called "minimal" when it spends more on its armies than every other country in the world put together?

It still puzzles me that you can so freely castigate people who want to spend money on helping their countrymen instead of on killing strangers on the other side of the globe. It makes no sense to me. But then conservatism in general seems increasingly distant from common sense in this day and age.

The defense budget being "excessive" is your opinion.
Is anyone telling you your taxes are going up because we need more money for defense?
Are we spending more than we have on it?

I'd rather my taxes go to supporting the military, an actual function of the government, than subsidizing a loan for a fucking Corolla.

RobMoney$

08-10-2009, 06:31 PM

Obama took the shit sandwich out of our mouths- but it's still on the table.

THERE IT IS.

OBAMA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR RESCUING THE MARKET!!!

yeahwho

08-10-2009, 06:34 PM

I'd rather my taxes go to supporting the military, an actual function of the government, than subsidizing a loan for a fucking Corolla.

We should be warring with Corolla, not subsidizing them. If all the Corollas were blown to smithereens I don't think we would have to worry about spending so much on the Military.

saz

08-10-2009, 06:44 PM

man...

Political Notebook: Giffords' following of conservative activists grows

ARIZONA DAILY STAR

Southern Arizona congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords has a new loyal following — but not the one she probably hoped for when she ran for office in 2006.

Conservative activists, opposed to the Democrats’ health care proposals, are jumping at the chance to confront the second-term Democrat and vent their frustrations.

But for now Giffords is not interested in engaging with people her staff says are using “manipulation” and “racism” to spread their message.

“Yelling and screaming is counterproductive,” she told the Sierra Vista Herald at a Congress on Your Corner event last week. There, one visitor dropped a gun at the meet n’ greet held in a Douglas Safeway, her staff says.

That has aides, who called police to the event, concerned for her safety.

“We have never felt the need before to notify law enforcement when we hold these events,” said spokesman C.J. Karamargin.

Such activists are showing-up at Democratic events coast to coast, including a recent one held by Northern Arizona congresswoman Ann Kirkpatrick.

But the leader of the Tucson movement, Trent Humphries, a former legislative candidate, says Giffords is lying. He says his followers have no intention of hurting her. And they’re not racists, he said.

“Nobody is threatening Gabby,” Humphries said. “But she does need to get in front of her constituents and answer to her constituents.”
Her staff says she’s done that.

Before this organized movement against Democrats started, Giffords held a health care town hall early this summer that drew more than 1,000 people. And just this month she held a tele-town hall, with 5,000 invited guests from her district on the line.

The more important point? What Giffords actually decides to do if there’s a vote on health care reform. Despite Humphries claims that Giffords supports the Democratic reforms, she’s stopped short of saying that much.

It’s that vote which could determine whether this frantic crowd — or angry health care reformers in her own party — are the ones following this Blue Dog around T-town.

RobMoney$

08-10-2009, 07:39 PM

We should be warring with Corolla, not subsidizing them. If all the Corollas were blown to smithereens I don't think we would have to worry about spending so much on the Military.

You're a weird cat.

yeahwho

08-11-2009, 02:54 PM

You're a weird cat.

Yes I am. I am a recovering drunk/drug abuser. I also have very little in common with the mainstream of America. I don't give a shit what you may think about me, I'm extremely happy with my lot in life, I'm proud as hell.

What I've accomplished in the past 5 years just while posting here on this board is a miracle. I'm actually way beyond being a weird cat. I'm off the charts.

BTW, that Joker poster is racist.

RobMoney$

08-11-2009, 05:25 PM

Yes I am. I am a recovering drunk/drug abuser. I also have very little in common with the mainstream of America. I don't give a shit what you may think about me, I'm extremely happy with my lot in life, I'm proud as hell.

What I've accomplished in the past 5 years just while posting here on this board is a miracle. I'm actually way beyond being a weird cat. I'm off the charts.

BTW, that Joker poster is racist.

We have a lot in common then.
I've been through a fair share of drug and alcohol counciling myself.
Not that I ever did the 12 step thing, or consider myself a friend of Bill W., but I've been down that road. I guess it's been a good 10 years since my days of court ordered AA and outpatient rehab.
Funny, but I was actually just thinking about going back into therapy for some personal shit that's been going on in my life right before I came on here, not drugs or alcohol related.

saz

08-11-2009, 10:22 PM

protester with gun outside obama town hall

shocking video from nbc news caught this protester with a hand gun strapped to his leg, waiting for president obama to arrive in portsmouth, new hampshire. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IFhJtijX88)

A man carried a handgun strapped to his leg to a town hall meeting being held by President Obama in Portsmouth, New Hampshire on Tuesday.

It's legal for him to have the gun as long as it is unconcealed, the police told MSNBC. The man was on private property -- church ground on the roadway leading to the high school where Obama would speak. The church gave the man permission to be there. However, according to police officers, he is under constant surveillance and is not anywhere near where the president will speak.

Talking Points Memo points out that the man was carrying a sign referencing this Jefferson quote (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/08/armed_and_dangerous.php?ref=fpb): "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Hours before Obama was to arrive at Portsmouth High School, the road leading to the event site was lined with people (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/11/obama-pitching-health-car_n_256357.html) - about 100 supporters of Obama's health care overhaul on one side and about half as many opponents on the other. White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said that the president was prepared for possible disruptions.

chris matthews to obama town hall protester: why did you bring a "god damn gun"?

video (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/vp/32378192#32378192)

On Tuesday's Hardball with Chris Matthews, Matthews' guest was William Kostric, the man who brought a gun earlier in the day (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/11/protester-with-gun-found_n_256614.html) to protest President Obama's health care town hall meeting in Portsmouth, New Hampshire.

Kostric was wearing a (legal) handgun strapped to his leg and holding a sign referencing this Jefferson quote: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

The segment grew more and more heated as Matthews repeatedly asked Kostric why he came to the meeting wearing a gun. "Well, why did you bring a gun to a Presidential event today?"

"That's not even a relevant question," Kostric said, shrugging. "The question is, why don't people bear arms these days."

"Okay, you bought a sign that said 'The tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants' and you're carrying a god damn gun at a Presidential event. I think those things make people wonder what you're about."

Kostric for his part, was unrepentant, and maintained that he was there in a totally non-violent capacity. "No one from New Hampshire was alarmed. Maybe some of the people they bussed in from Massachusets were alarmed. But we're not really concerned about them."

Bob

08-11-2009, 10:29 PM

new hampshire is basically the texas of new england, i actually wouldn't be surprised if that guy just kind of generally carries a gun around in the same way that you and i take our keys everywhere

still fucked up though

kaiser soze

08-11-2009, 10:33 PM

protester with gun outside obama town hall

I guess it is legal in NH for open carry, but allow political protesting (and quite suggestive at that) from the lawn of a church should be enough to relinquish their tax exempt status (n)

Just Found this as well!

http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20090811-NEWS-908119961

Young was found inside Portsmouth High School, where Obama later in the day held his town hall-style forum. Young was detained by the Secret Service and subsequently arrested by Portsmouth Lt. Corey MacDonald. Young was carrying a pocket knife, police said. A subsequent search of his vehicle, parked on school property, revealed a loaded hand gun, police said.

Good for the Secret Service - It is time to take these wackos seriously.

kaiser soze

08-12-2009, 02:04 PM

oh look

a bigger Joker!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYbqZf53hHk&eurl

I guess Beck doesn't mind watching his advertisers drop like flies

yeahwho

08-12-2009, 02:33 PM

Glenn Beck may actually be stupider than Sarah Palin. Has somebody in the Health Insurance industry put a gun to his families head? That piece of crap picture show is desperation so far out there I can't help but think he is being forced to act this way by sheer force.

Otherwise this is a very sick paranoid man with a national tv show. Maybe this is the best health care FOXNews has to offer.

Just in case some of you don't know... (I'm sure you do) the Insurance Industry does have a cost analysis of Human Life (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1808049,00.html).

saz

08-12-2009, 06:17 PM

a few women brought posters with them to senator claire mccaskill's health care town hall meeting yesterday, but after being berated by the crowd, they rolled up the posters and put them down. then, a reporter approached the woman, and asked to see what the poster was. so, the woman unrolled the poster for the reporter. then, an angry man approached the woman and the reporter, grabbed the poster, and scrunched it up and threw it down. it was a poster of rosa parks. when the woman tried to get her poster back, the police intervened and escorted both the angry man and the woman from the building.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7zfawMm-So

RobMoney$

08-12-2009, 06:28 PM

Please tell me what Rosa Parks has to do with healthcare?

yeahwho

08-12-2009, 07:38 PM

Please tell me what Rosa Parks has to do with healthcare?

Rosa Parks has much more to do with health care than Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany.

RobMoney$

08-12-2009, 07:58 PM

No, Hitler has much more to do with a discussion on nationalized healthcare program and socialism than Rosa Parks, a symbol of civil rights does.

yeahwho

08-12-2009, 08:00 PM

No, Hitler has much more to do with a discussion on nationalized healthcare program and socialism than Rosa Parks, a symbol of civil rights does.

are you honestly that easily distracted from reality?

RobMoney$

08-12-2009, 08:14 PM

I'm very easily distraced from reality, but that doesn't change the fact that Rosa Parks has nothing to do with healthcare.

Now c'mon and admit it.
The Rosa Parks poster is simply the race card being thrown in front of this.

saz

08-12-2009, 08:31 PM

Please tell me what Rosa Parks has to do with healthcare?

that's not the point. the point is the hostility and anger of the man, and how these wingnuts are doing their very best to intimidate anyone with a different point of view.

No, Hitler has much more to do with a discussion on nationalized healthcare program and socialism than Rosa Parks, a symbol of civil rights does.

ah once again, the ol' adolf hitler limbaugh talking point. i guess then, according to that logic, that hitler and socialism have something to do with the police and firefighters as well?

I'm very easily distraced from reality, but that doesn't change the fact that Rosa Parks has nothing to do with healthcare.

Now c'mon and admit it.
The Rosa Parks poster is simply the race card being thrown in front of this.

having health insurance is a right, just like having access to law enforcement and the fire department.

RobMoney$

08-12-2009, 08:37 PM

having health insurance is a right,

Should we ammend the Constitution to reflect that, then?

saz

08-12-2009, 08:39 PM

so you don't think then that you should access to the police and the fire department?

saz

08-12-2009, 08:47 PM

representative davis scott, a democrat from florida, first had a swatstika (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTLpb1y2ao0) spray painted on a sign (http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/ap/679ea145-22b6-47b8-9a39-9964b79d3cfd.h2.jpg) which directs visitors to his office.

scott today appeared on cnn to show some of the letters and faxes his office has been receiving of late, including one which had an image of president obama with a hammer and sickle on his forehead, with the congressman referred to as "nigga david scott" and more racist remarks contained in the message.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeWUTP6Uhko

RobMoney$

08-12-2009, 08:56 PM

so you don't think then that you should access to the police and the fire department?

But everyone has access to healthcare.

How about shelter, shouldn't we include that in things people should have a right to have?
The Government should buy eveyone a house then, right?

saz

08-12-2009, 09:04 PM

no, not everyone has access to health insurance in the us, especially when you consider that 18,000 americans (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/healthcare/2002-05-22-insurance-deaths.htm) die because they don't have access.

travesty

08-14-2009, 12:35 PM

Obama took the shit sandwich out of our mouths- but it's still on the table.

And it's still making me nauseous!

Echewta

08-14-2009, 12:55 PM

Its amazing that a public health care option is getting so much attention. Its great and bizzare at the sametime. Its stunning to know that this country, espcially elected officials on both sides, will pour billions along with the billions of unaccounted and waste into Iraq (oh yea, the dead and injured), but aren't interested in a discussion about trying to offer more affordable health care. You can call it socialism, communism, capitalism, taoism, whatever, its just something descent to do for everyone and doesn't need a label. When I get my bills, pay my taxes, go to the doctor, drive the roads, I don't think about what economic and/or social system I live in. Having another healthplan isn't going to mean they destroy the constitution or cancel the 4th of July. If a plan is passed, it could create more compitition or possibly even fail. I don't see why it isn't even given a chance.
Yes, healthcare is avaiable to all but an emergency room or calling 911 shouldn't be that source and is usually used when things get very bad and could have been prevented ($$$) or people are using it for preventative medicine ($$$) which is what a doctors office is for. If there were a number of free and well funded clinics, things could be different and a policy might not be necessary.

ramble...

travesty

08-14-2009, 01:02 PM

having health insurance is a right, just like having access to law enforcement and the fire department.

Bwahahahahaha.... I love that line. Health insurance is a RIGHT? Bwahahahahahaha

You really are a fool

Think about what you just said, really, and then think about the examples you give.

Do you know what a Volunteer Fire Department is? That's a fire department where the community gets together to provide the SERVICE because the government won't. Usually found where a small number of people live in a large geographic area.

Do you know what Constables are? Again usually found in instances of small polulation across large geographic areas like Alaska. In fact outside of most metropolitain areas the state police force is often the only law enforcement available and bases/stations are few and far between.

In short the "RIGHTS" you use as examples are SERVICES provided by other people. A "RIGHT" is not something that you have to rely on other people for. You can also not force other people to supply your "RIGHT" for you. What if all the firemen and police got sick and couldn't go to work one day. Who is going to supply your "RIGHT" for you that day???

And the big kicker is this, by your examples a "RIGHT" is something which can be supplied in varying forms or level of quality to different people depending on a cost/benefit analysis by the government........

And now you know what scares people the most about givernment run healthcare!!!! Are we clear now? That's not so hard to understand is it?

saz

08-14-2009, 01:34 PM

you know, i always respected you because in the past you were respectful yourself and weren't usually prone to being patronizing, ridiculing or hurling insults. i see this isn't the case now. that's a shame.

anyways, as a citizen of a democratic government nation state, my tax dollars go towards providing such services you mentioned because they are rights: the rights to law enforcement, fire services, a military and health care. without the aforementioned, i'd be pretty much living in anarchy. and i don't want to live in anarchy. these are basic services that the majority demand and need. in regards to people in smaller communities and rural areas who may not have the same sort of access to police and fire services, well that is damn shame and from my perspective intolerable.

i'm sorry, but the scenario you presented, that perhaps one day every cop and fire figther were to get sick, is utterly absurd.

anyways, i can't see why someone would be scared by public health insurance (unless of course you're being fed non-stop misinformation, lies and smears by right-wing hate talk radio, fox news, and right-wing pundits who don't have a clue what they're talking about). as i've mentioned before, a family member just had major, serious surgery a few years back, and it didn't cost my family a dime. the care was incredible. america is the only western, industrialized nation that doesn't have some form of public health insurance, and because of this, 18,000 americans die every year (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/healthcare/2002-05-22-insurance-deaths.htm). that is really wrong and a serious problem. i don't see how providing another service, just like the military, police or fire department is encroaching communism. conservatives in canada and europe seem to have no problems with it, so it boggles the mind how people could be so opposed to it.

edit: oh wait, america has medicare, and medicare is public health insurance, for senior citizens. and it's pretty funny that people aren't going nuts over medicare, and have been telling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJp-roulVsA) the administration to keep the government out of their medicare (lol).

yeahwho

08-14-2009, 02:07 PM

Bwahahahahaha.... I love that line. Health insurance is a RIGHT? Bwahahahahahaha

You really are a fool

Think about what you just said, really, and then think about the examples you give.

Do you know what a Volunteer Fire Department is? That's a fire department where the community gets together to provide the SERVICE because the government won't. Usually found where a small number of people live in a large geographic area.

Do you know what Constables are? Again usually found in instances of small polulation across large geographic areas like Alaska. In fact outside of most metropolitain areas the state police force is often the only law enforcement available and bases/stations are few and far between.

In short the "RIGHTS" you use as examples are SERVICES provided by other people. A "RIGHT" is not something that you have to rely on other people for. You can also not force other people to supply your "RIGHT" for you. What if all the firemen and police got sick and couldn't go to work one day. Who is going to supply your "RIGHT" for you that day???

And the big kicker is this, by your examples a "RIGHT" is something which can be supplied in varying forms or level of quality to different people depending on a cost/benefit analysis by the government........

And now you know what scares people the most about givernment run healthcare!!!! Are we clear now? That's not so hard to understand is it?

Been listening to Sarah Palin a lot lately?

What if those 341 firemen who gave their lives didn't respond to the WTC on 9/11? I find your input to be disrespectful at best and completely cruel, twisted and punch worthy at worst.

Constables? I have lived and worked in Alaska and currently have relatives living and working in Alaska. I am going to tell you something I've noticed about Alaska, there are cops in Alaska. The volunteer fire stations are all taxpayer assisted.

Here's the kicker about Alaska, Sarah (DEATH PANEL) Palin's Alaska. The Alaskan health program is not doing so well, Sarah Palin's state run health care system, pay particularly close attention to the sixth paragraph

Troubled Alaska health programs face federal restriction (http://www.adn.com/life/health/story/864670.html)

travesty

08-14-2009, 04:01 PM

you know, i always respected you because in the past you were respectful yourself and weren't usually prone to being patronizing, ridiculing or hurling insults. i see this isn't the case now. that's a shame. ).

I apologize for the jab, and thanks for fostering a decent disucssion. Frankly that's why I pop on this board from time to time to get a sense of oposing opinion and I value your input. Please don't take terms like fool personally they are jusy banter. If I wanted to insult you I'd use much harsher language.

My point was simply the difference bewteen a service and a right. A service provided by others can not be a right, look up the definition. My point was also that there are varying degrees of all government provided services based on demographics, population, geographic location and most importantly tax base. Everyone has access to public school, but all public schools are not the same. Everyone has access to a law enforcement agency but not all are the same. SOme are even corrupt and work against the public interest. My point is that people are concerned that a government run health plan will run into these same problems and thus be forced to implement these same inequities.

This idea that healthcare, or any of these other services is a right is very much a 20th century idea. It wasn't even a hundred years ago that people actually relied on themselves for these services. Now, just because the delivery of these services has become much more efficient we think they are a "right"? To me that's laughable.

Trust me, I am very much FOR healthcare reform but I am very much AGAINST HR3200 and I am only about 450 pages in to it. That shit is boring.

i'm sorry, but the scenario you presented, that perhaps one day every cop and fire figther were to get sick, is utterly absurd. ).

Is it? what happened to all the people in the air the day all of the air traffic controllers went on strike? What happens in NYC every so often when the garbage men go on strike? What happened to people's homes in CA when there wren't enough firefighters to protect them all? Guess what... then you have to provide those services for yourself or hire someone else to do it for you. No one is going to magically fall form the sky to fulfill your "rights" to these services.

anyways, i can't see why someone would be scared by public health insurance ).
I am not aginst everyone having health insurance, in fcat I am all for it. I think that if it were affordable to most it would be a non-issue given that Medicare and Medicaid are already in place (though failing financially). I am, however, very leary at the prsopect of the gubment running it let alone forcing me on to it.

(unless of course you're being fed non-stop misinformation, lies and smears by right-wing hate talk radio, fox news, and right-wing pundits who don't have a clue what they're talking about)).

What that a jab at me ? Weak.

as i've mentioned before, a family member just had major, serious surgery a few years back, and it didn't cost my family a dime. the care was incredible. america is the only western, industrialized nation that doesn't have some form of public health insurance, and because of this, 18,000 americans die every year (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/healthcare/2002-05-22-insurance-deaths.htm). that is really wrong and a serious problem. i don't see how providing another service, just like the military, police or fire department is encroaching communism. conservatives in canada and europe seem to have no problems with it, so it boggles the mind how people could be so opposed to it. )).

I think that's great. and as you mention about Medicare and Medicaid...we DO have public health insurance... it's just badly, badly broken and frnkly the reason behind much of the cost increases in medical care since the 60's.

In the end I don't have the answer to it all. Just because something works in one country doesn't mean it's going to work here (After all that's why we have borders and armies and shit right?). I am not opposed to a public plan as long as it doesn't force the private insurance sector out of business. But to do that you have to draw lines and "ration" things like any other government program. It simply can't be everything for everyone. I think that those in Canada are "used" to their system and therefore may not see the shortcomings like wait times and such. You have to understand that they may in fact be no big deal but to us who haven't had to deal with things like that much they are a bit daunting. We need change, no doubt! It's just that neither what we have, nor what's been proposed are sustainable.

travesty

08-14-2009, 04:17 PM

Been listening to Sarah Palin a lot lately?

What if those 341 firemen who gave their lives didn't respond to the WTC on 9/11? I find your input to be disrespectful at best and completely cruel, twisted and punch worthy at worst.

Constables? I have lived and worked in Alaska and currently have relatives living and working in Alaska. I am going to tell you something I've noticed about Alaska, there are cops in Alaska. The volunteer fire stations are all taxpayer assisted.

Here's the kicker about Alaska, Sarah (DEATH PANEL) Palin's Alaska. The Alaskan health program is not doing so well, Sarah Palin's state run health care system, pay particularly close attention to the sixth paragraph

Troubled Alaska health programs face federal restriction (http://www.adn.com/life/health/story/864670.html)

Don't try and pigeonhole me as some super right winger. It won't work

What if those 341 didn't show up? What are you trying to say, that they would all still be alive? That more people would have died? I don't get it. Are you saying that they died for other people's "Rights"? They certainly provided and incredibly honorable service but what "right" did they provide that day?
I fail to see the logic.

Are you telling me that the people that the remote tribal areas in Alaska have a Police department and fire brigade as well funded and equipped as the ones in Wasilla down the street from your favorite Governor's house? Of course not. That's my point...at some point, for whatever reason, it is not feasible or cost effective to offer those pople the same level of government services as those provided to others. That is called I-N-E-Q-U-I-T-Y. Is this how you want your health care run?

So because another state government run health program is failing (ie. Mass.) you believe that we should implement a nationwide version and somehow the results will be different? Again, I fail to see the logic.

yeahwho

08-14-2009, 04:57 PM

Don't try and pigeonhole me as some super right winger. It won't work

What if those 341 didn't show up? What are you trying to say, that they would all still be alive? That more people would have died? I don't get it. Are you saying that they died for other people's "Rights"? They certainly provided and incredibly honorable service but what "right" did they provide that day?
I fail to see the logic.

My Dad provided for my family by being a Seattle Fire Fighter his whole life, you simpleminded fuck. How do you like that logic?

Are you telling me that the people that the remote tribal areas in Alaska have a Police department and fire brigade as well funded and equipped as the ones in Wasilla down the street from your favorite Governor's house? Of course not. That's my point...at some point, for whatever reason, it is not feasible or cost effective to offer those pople the same level of government services as those provided to others. That is called I-N-E-Q-U-I-T-Y. Is this how you want your health care run?

I'm telling you I have been in villages up and down the State of Alaska and they have police, tax paid. I'm also telling you YES, I want the people of Alaska to get the same health care as the people in Seattle, which many do now at great expense to all, except the insurance industry. We're paying for it now, regardless of how you may think it's being paid for, the only true I-N-E-Q-U-I-T-Y is the corporate health care industry isn't paying shit so we as taxpayers are paying the extravagant rates Health Care Industry has set in place.

So because another state government run health program is failing (ie. Mass.) you believe that we should implement a nationwide version and somehow the results will be different? Again, I fail to see the logic.

Then you are either obtuse or you are a moron, because the most publicized vocal opponent of Universal Health Care is the woman who quit as Governor of Alaska, the example I sighted.

travesty

08-14-2009, 06:14 PM

My Dad provided for my family by being a Seattle Fireman his whole life, you simpleminded fuck. How do you like that logic?

I'm telling you I have been in villages up and down the State of Alaska and they have police, tax paid. I'm also telling you YES, I want the people of Alaska to get the same health care as the people in Seattle, which many do now at great expense to all, except the insurance industry. We're paying for it now, regardless of how you may think it's being paid for, the only true I-N-E-Q-U-I-T-Y is the corporate health care industry isn't paying shit so we as taxpayers are paying the extravagant rates Health Care Industry has set in place.

Then you are either obtuse or you are a moron, because the most publicized vocal opponent of Universal Health Care is the woman who quit as Governor of Alaska, the example I sighted.

Easy there Conan... I apologize if direct logic upsets you. I had heard that rational conversation can upset some simpletons but I had not experienced it until now. Let me see if I can make this as 8th grade readable as possible. If you do the same then we can meet in the middle.

My brother is also a firefighter (wildland) and also provides for his family that way....so what? It's a very honorable profession. Where did I ever disparage firefighters? I made my point very clearly. What is your point?

Once again....where did I ever say people in remote area of Alaska do not have state funded police? In any case what we are talking about is the level and quality of law enforcement. Can you read? There are lots of remote villages where state law enforcement officers are forced to fly by plane in cases of an emergency because the areas they patrol are inaccessible by road. Until that point these villages are left to police themselves. Just like when a burglar is in your house, you have to be the police uuntil the police arrive. I know my typing is not great but it's not as bad as your reading comprehension. My point was that those remote law enforcment officers do not have the same resources and budgets that the officers in larger cities do therefor the constituents of that area do not receive the same level of service.

The current health insurance system is broken, I agree with you (again...can you read?) However, when you bash the "greedy insurance companies" you are lumping all insurance companies into the pot of backstabbing corporate douchebags when, however well founded it is for some, that is still nothing more than a generalization. Like saying ALL of Wall Street is corrupt....that is simply not the case. Here in NC BCBS is a not-for-profit organization and frankly their rates are pretty reasonable compared to other places. I know, I shop rates for my employees every year. I assume that this helps keep other for-profit companies prices in check too as I know business owners in other states that pay significantly more. BUT if you live in VA you can't have these NC rates. Why? Same I am sure goes for Alaska, I am sure the cost of providing care, like everything else up there is more expensive than the lower 48. So why not allow those people to be put in a bigger pool by allowing companies with large risk pools in the lower 48 to sell insurance in Alaska? Nationalizing everything is not the only solution you know and fankly it should always be the last resort. If the government is convinced that adding a Public Plan as competition will reduce private insurance costs then surely allowing the hundreds of existing insurers to truly compete across state lines would reduce costs even more, right? Are you seeing the blatant hypocrisy in this theory?

I am sorry, I know that is a lot to chew on...go ahead and take few days to read it a couple times and get back to me later.

yeahwho

08-14-2009, 06:45 PM

Easy there Conan... I apologize if direct logic upsets you.

You are obnoxious, you haven't made any valid points about health care other than it's broken. Durrrrrrrrr. You want to tell me about Alaska and Firefighting and I can tell you I have vast superior knowledge on both topics, seeings how my life has been directly involved with actual daily life situations intimately involving both.

Your tone is condescending. You are a child. It's not enough to ever recognize you may have just met someone who knows what he's talking about, you want to continue on as if you have some upper hand on the subject.

Another interesting thing about my family is this, my mother worked in the health insurance industry her whole life at one of Nations #1 providers for 25+ years, she still consults. My sister in law works for a major health provider in Anchorage Alaska.

travesty

08-14-2009, 07:04 PM

You are obnoxious, you haven't made any valid points about health care other than it's broken. Durrrrrrrrr. You want to tell me about Alaska and Firefighting and I can tell you I have vast superior knowledge on both topics, seeings how my life has been directly involved with actual daily life situations intimately involving both.

Your tone is condescending. You are a child. It's not enough to ever recognize you may have just met someone who knows what he's talking about, you want to continue on as if you have some upper hand on the subject.

Another interesting thing about my family is this, my mother worked in the health insurance industry her whole life at one of Nations #1 providers for 25+ years, she still consults. My sister in law works for a major health provider in Anchorage Alaska.

You are retarded and can not read. None of my threads had anything to do with either firefighting or Alaska however since you can not debate the heathcare issue you decided to make this thread about something you might know something about. I however did not. I agree that you may know something about firefighting and Alaska but you have yet to prove that you know anything about the Healthcare issue or that you can grasp simple cause and effect realtionships. Congratulations. I hope your consultant mother and firefighter father are proud of their incoherent imbecile child.

Wait a minute... Now I know why you you want a blanket public option healthcare plan. It all makes sense. There is no way you could ever get a job in which to pay for health insurance otherwise. You could have just said that to begin with. Believe me I want to make sure the mentally disabled are covered as well. I am actually trying to look out for you. You should love me.

Now run along and ask your Mommy why insurance companies can't sell policies across states lines and let her try and explain it to you. I obviously can't get the point across using words with less than five letters.

travesty

08-14-2009, 07:09 PM

yeahwho

08-14-2009, 07:09 PM

You are retarded and can not read. None of my threads had anything to do with either firefighting or Alaska however since you can not debate the heathcare issue you decided to make this thread about something you might know something about. I however did not. I agree that you may know something about firefighting and Alaska but you have yet to prove that you know anything about the Healthcare issue or that you can grasp simple cause and effect realtionships. Congratulations. I hope your consultant mother and firefighter father are proud of their incoherent imbecile child.

Wait a minute... Now I know why you you want a blanket public option healthcare plan. It all makes sense. There is no way you could ever get a job in which to pay for health insurance otherwise. You could have just said that to begin with. Believe me I want to make sure the mentally disabled are covered as well. I am actually trying to look out for you. You should love me.

Now run along and ask your Mommy why insurance companies can't sell policies across states lines and let her try and explain it you.

Just proving my point

yeahwho

08-14-2009, 07:15 PM

Oh... and nothing in this thread was rude or condescending until you came up with ...." you simpleminded fuck". It was brilliant but I fear you don't have the brain power to keep quips like that coming for very long.

I'm pretty sure you may need to reread your drivel. It started with "You really are a fool" and continued on until, well until now.

travesty

08-14-2009, 07:42 PM

I'm done with you. Trying to carry on a productive conversation with you is pointless. Enjoy your life.

Randetica

08-14-2009, 07:49 PM

my health care is healthier than yours

saz

08-14-2009, 09:51 PM

I apologize for the jab, and thanks for fostering a decent disucssion. Frankly that's why I pop on this board from time to time to get a sense of oposing opinion and I value your input. Please don't take terms like fool personally they are jusy banter. If I wanted to insult you I'd use much harsher language.

My point was simply the difference bewteen a service and a right. A service provided by others can not be a right, look up the definition. My point was also that there are varying degrees of all government provided services based on demographics, population, geographic location and most importantly tax base. Everyone has access to public school, but all public schools are not the same. Everyone has access to a law enforcement agency but not all are the same. SOme are even corrupt and work against the public interest. My point is that people are concerned that a government run health plan will run into these same problems and thus be forced to implement these same inequities.

This idea that healthcare, or any of these other services is a right is very much a 20th century idea. It wasn't even a hundred years ago that people actually relied on themselves for these services. Now, just because the delivery of these services has become much more efficient we think they are a "right"? To me that's laughable.

Trust me, I am very much FOR healthcare reform but I am very much AGAINST HR3200 and I am only about 450 pages in to it. That shit is boring.

Is it? what happened to all the people in the air the day all of the air traffic controllers went on strike? What happens in NYC every so often when the garbage men go on strike? What happened to people's homes in CA when there wren't enough firefighters to protect them all? Guess what... then you have to provide those services for yourself or hire someone else to do it for you. No one is going to magically fall form the sky to fulfill your "rights" to these services.

I am not aginst everyone having health insurance, in fcat I am all for it. I think that if it were affordable to most it would be a non-issue given that Medicare and Medicaid are already in place (though failing financially). I am, however, very leary at the prsopect of the gubment running it let alone forcing me on to it.

What that a jab at me ? Weak.

I think that's great. and as you mention about Medicare and Medicaid...we DO have public health insurance... it's just badly, badly broken and frnkly the reason behind much of the cost increases in medical care since the 60's.

In the end I don't have the answer to it all. Just because something works in one country doesn't mean it's going to work here (After all that's why we have borders and armies and shit right?). I am not opposed to a public plan as long as it doesn't force the private insurance sector out of business. But to do that you have to draw lines and "ration" things like any other government program. It simply can't be everything for everyone. I think that those in Canada are "used" to their system and therefore may not see the shortcomings like wait times and such. You have to understand that they may in fact be no big deal but to us who haven't had to deal with things like that much they are a bit daunting. We need change, no doubt! It's just that neither what we have, nor what's been proposed are sustainable.

i see what you're getting at between a service and a right. however, while it is easy to say that a service, such as the police or fire department, is provided by others, the bottom line is still that you and i, the tax payer, pay their salaries, benefits etc. so, yes, as citizens of a functioning, strong and vibrant democracy, in which we want order and not chaos, we as tax payers, have a right to this service. as tax payers, especially in the western industrialized world, we also have a right to public health insurance. without it, we would be royally screwed, as is the case for millions of americans. having public health insurance will not be the end of free markets or capitalism. canada, as the rest of europe, are western democracies, capitalist and provide both public and private health insurance. that is especially the case in france.

now, to address your concern that public health insurance will run into problems as you mentioned, well let me provide you with the canadian experience or example. here, our system is publically funded, but privately delivered. no one is ever denied treatment for anything. all you have to do is provide your health card upon visiting a doctor's office or hospital, and you will be treated. if it is a serious emergency, you will not be forced to provide your health card and will be treated. it's as simple as that. now, there are some minor problems here with waiting lists and doctor shortages in rural areas, but overall these are not serious problems and are being addressed by provincial governments. schmeltz did a great job of summarizing our system here (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=1685673&postcount=51), and, this column (http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_12523427) here is absolutely spot on in regards to debunking canadian health care myths.

the kinds of problems or demonization of public health insurance which you're likely currently hearing or reading about are simply falsehoods. at the end of the day, the private health insurance industry, their lobbyists, and the gop don't want a public health insurance option to compete with private health insurance companies. frankly, the problems with the american private-for-profit system, are quite frightening and even criminal. dr. linda pino, a former health reviewer at humana, testified before a congressional committee (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwGLdYBm1bY) back in '96 about her denying many insured clients coverage or insurance, simply to maintain a profit for humana, which also resulted in a man dying. i'm sorry, but that kind of system is really screwed up and immoral. everybody loves capitalism, it is a great, raw economic engine. however, not everything should be for-profit, especially health insurance which people depend on for their health, well-being and their lives. sorry, i can't attach a dollar sign to that.

people's lives and well-being aren't laughable to me. i don't think in 19th century, or early 20th century terms. i don't have that mindset nor would i ever contemplate having that mentality. it's outdated and backwards. not everyone has thousands and thousands of dollars to fork out for private health insurance. interestingly enough, fire departments in the 19th century also used to run for-profit. so, according to your logic then, if people should rely on themselves, and their house is on fire and they can't afford to pay the fire department, should their house simply burn down then?

we just had a 36 day or so garbage strike in toronto. we managed through it quite easily, although without of course a lot of gripes from upset citizens. temporary dumps were established, and before we knew it the strike was settled. in regards to california wild fires and fire departments not being able to protect every home possible, sorry but that is completely different. everyone who can't afford private insurance can be easily covered with public insurance. as i explained above, once you're covered, you're covered. it is as simple as that. i can't see why a public insurance option, for those who want one and can't afford private insurance, can't exist side-by-side and even compete with private health insurance. to be denied health care, because you can't afford it, is the equivalent of saying "your life isn't worth anything".

and obama's proposal doesn't involve forcing you to take public health insurance. he's presenting a public health insurance option. you can stick with a private insurance company, or go with the public health insurance option. and again, having a public health insurance option won't spell the end of private insurance companies. they are enormous, multi-billion dollar operations, reaping profits. it's just going to provide some competition.

and if you are for everyone having health insurance, even public health insurance, than that is fantastic. it isnt communism or socialism or whatever. it's humane and sound public policy.

medicare and medicaid desperately need more funding. however i know that i don't have to tell you this, but over the decades, both democratic and republican administrations have been far too preoccupied with funding unnecessary wars, military excursions and expensive tax cuts. the public well being and public infrastructure, and national security should be the upmost priorities for presidential administrations, and not the expansion of american empire, or oil lust, or pleasing the electorate or their political base with tax cuts, which deprive the treasury and state of much needed revenue.

public health insurance works in every western, industrialized country, and medicare and medicaid seem to be very popular in the us and people don't ever want those programs done away with, so why not have a public health insurance option for those who can't afford private insurance? doesn't that sound fair and reasonable to you?

and no it wasn't a jab at you, but rather the mouth breathers who think obama is a communist nazi hitler dude.

travesty

08-15-2009, 12:27 AM

we as tax payers, have a right to this service. .

Absolutely! you have a right to recieve services you have paid for... I could not agree more. Howvere itt is going to be a major paradigm shift to get the American public to realize that paying a little more taxes will offest their current out of pocket healthcare costs. Right now it's a hard sell.

having public health insurance will not be the end of free markets or capitalism. canada, as the rest of europe, are western democracies, capitalist and provide both public and private health insurance. that is especially the case in france. .

That is all fine and goood and seems to be working for you, but again it doesn't mean it will work for us. That is kind of like me saying that you really need to have an overly funded military complex and persue empirical theology becuase it will really benefit your economy....look at what it has done for ours!

now, to address your concern that public health insurance will run into problems as you mentioned, well let me provide you with the canadian experience or example. here, our system is publically funded, but privately delivered. no one is ever denied treatment for anything. all you have to do is provide your health card upon visiting a doctor's office or hospital, and you will be treated. if it is a serious emergency, you will not be forced to provide your health card and will be treated. it's as simple as that. now, there are some minor problems here with waiting lists and doctor shortages in rural areas, but overall these are not serious problems and are being addressed by provincial governments. schmeltz did a great job of summarizing our system here (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=1685673&postcount=51), and, this column (http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_12523427) here is absolutely spot on in regards to debunking canadian health care myths. .
So there are never any limits? How many CAT scans can a terminally ill patient request? C'mon there have to be some limits. I know even US insurance companies have limits. Its a plain dollars and sense equation. Morally or not..at the end of the day it's all business.

he kinds of problems or demonization of public health insurance which you're likely currently hearing or reading about are simply falsehoods. at the end of the day, the private health insurance industry, their lobbyists, and the gop don't want a public health insurance option to compete with private health insurance companies. frankly, the problems with the american private-for-profit system, are quite frightening and even criminal. dr. linda pino, a former health reviewer at humana, testified before a congressional committee (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwGLdYBm1bY) back in '96 about her denying many insured clients coverage or insurance, simply to maintain a profit for humana, which also resulted in a man dying. i'm sorry, but that kind of system is really screwed up and immoral. everybody loves capitalism, it is a great, raw economic engine. however, not everything should be for-profit, especially health insurance which people depend on for their health, well-being and their lives. sorry, i can't attach a dollar sign to that. .

There are some horror stories on both fronts. None of it is perfect but everything has a dolar sign attached to it regardless of the program you are in. Even a national plan is run on a budget, if lots more people require more healthcare than was budgeted for... you are going to get taxed more ( or your county goes into deep debt......let's not get started on that)

people's lives and well-being aren't laughable to me. i don't think in 19th century, or early 20th century terms. i don't have that mindset nor would i ever contemplate having that mentality. it's outdated and backwards. not everyone has thousands and thousands of dollars to fork out for private health insurance..

Ahhhh but you do... you just don't realize it becasue it is includeed in your taxes. One way or another you in Canada are paying an average of $3,500/year per person on healthcare. Whether you are paying to an insurance company or to the gubment you are still paing it. Nothing is free.

interestingly enough, fire departments in the 19th century also used to run for-profit. so, according to your logic then, if people should rely on themselves, and their house is on fire and they can't afford to pay the fire department, should their house simply burn down then? .
I might be an asshole but in my opinion ..yes. I think fire departments are obligated by the tax payers to respond to an emergency regardless of whether you have paid your tax bill or not as it may cause additional damage to others if not contained. But I do know there have been circumstances where the citizen was required to pay for services above and beyond the normal "call of duty" provided by the tax payers. Its helps limit wasteful and fraudulent calls. By that same logic is the water company or the electric company obligated to provide their services? what happens when you fail to pay them?
Do you have a "right" to clean drinking water if you don't pay the water company?

we just had a 36 day or so garbage strike in toronto. we managed through it quite easily, although without of course a lot of gripes from upset citizens. temporary dumps were established, and before we knew it the strike was settled. in regards to california wild fires and fire departments not being able to protect every home possible, sorry but that is completely different. everyone who can't afford private insurance can be easily covered with public insurance. .

Yes but at what expense to the rest of us? Like I said, you all have been doing this for some time so it is old hat and readily accepted but to us the idea of paying more to cover people we don't know ( and and what level?) is kinda scary. Obama has done a really poor job of explaining the whole thing and telling us exactly what it will cost. Right now people are just selling the idea but not providing the details....like the real cost. Unfortunately both side are supporting or refuting a bill that has not even been finalized.

and obama's proposal doesn't involve forcing you to take public health insurance. he's presenting a public health insurance option. you can stick with a private insurance company, or go with the public health insurance option. and again, having a public health insurance option won't spell the end of private insurance companies. they are enormous, multi-billion dollar operations, reaping profits. it's just going to provide some competition. .

again I don't think you really understand the intricacies of what we have right now and how implementing a Public policy would effect that. I am not saying you should either as I can hardly comprehend it myself. in short let me say this... the only public option that can compete with the private option would need to be a very comperehensive plan and thus...expensive to all of us. If it is a "basic" plan then that means it has limits and is not as good as the private plans. Either way that sucks for everyone... see what I'm saying? I just want to others to realize that it's not as simple as saying "now we have national healthcare...everyone is covered". That would be like telling everyone in Canada that "no one has healthcare...everyone go buy insurance". You can't wave a magic wand at this.

and if you are for everyone having health insurance, even public health insurance, than that is fantastic. it isnt communism or socialism or whatever. it's humane and sound public policy..

(y)(y) But we have to get there rationally from where we are now.

medicare and medicaid desperately need more funding. however i know that i don't have to tell you this, but over the decades, both democratic and republican administrations have been far too preoccupied with funding unnecessary wars, military excursions and expensive tax cuts. the public well being and public infrastructure, and national security should be the upmost priorities for presidential administrations, and not the expansion of american empire, or oil lust, or pleasing the electorate or their political base with tax cuts, which deprive the treasury and state of much needed revenue. .

If the percntage of tax revenue that we spend on "defense" were more in line with you and European countries.... this would be a non-issue and everyone in the US would driving Mercedes!

public health insurance works in every western, industrialized country, and medicare and medicaid seem to be very popular in the us and people don't ever want those programs done away with, so why not have a public health insurance option for those who can't afford private insurance? doesn't that sound fair and reasonable to you?

Making sure everyone has access to affordable healthacer is certainly a priority for me. Having the government provide it is the last resort.

PS SAZ- I love the conversation. This is what I don't get from from talking to like mided people. Thank you.

yeahwho

08-15-2009, 12:31 AM

I'm done with you. Trying to carry on a productive conversation with you is pointless. Enjoy your life.

:D

DroppinScience

08-18-2009, 09:49 AM

The man behind the Obama "Joker" portrait is unmasked.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/08/obama-joker-artist.html

However, the whole "Socialism is no Joke" was co-opted by someone else entirely (who is yet to be identified). The guy who made this was a Kucinich supporter, if you can believe!

saz

08-18-2009, 06:21 PM

Absolutely! you have a right to recieve services you have paid for... I could not agree more. Howvere itt is going to be a major paradigm shift to get the American public to realize that paying a little more taxes will offest their current out of pocket healthcare costs. Right now it's a hard sell.

you have got to the most rational libertarian ever (y)

That is all fine and goood and seems to be working for you, but again it doesn't mean it will work for us. That is kind of like me saying that you really need to have an overly funded military complex and persue empirical theology becuase it will really benefit your economy....look at what it has done for ours!

but up until the recent financial burdens, medicare and medicaid have been extremely successful and popular in the us.

So there are never any limits? How many CAT scans can a terminally ill patient request? C'mon there have to be some limits. I know even US insurance companies have limits. Its a plain dollars and sense equation. Morally or not..at the end of the day it's all business.

i'm not sure about limits but you can easily get them, and will usually have to wait about a week to two weeks to get one.

There are some horror stories on both fronts. None of it is perfect but everything has a dolar sign attached to it regardless of the program you are in. Even a national plan is run on a budget, if lots more people require more healthcare than was budgeted for... you are going to get taxed more ( or your county goes into deep debt......let's not get started on that)

there aren't any really horror stories here. the only problems we have encountered here, due to cutbacks to health care in the 1990s by the federal government, are waiting times and doctor shortages in rural areas. and we now have medical walk-in clinics virtually everwhere, in nearly every local plaza.

Ahhhh but you do... you just don't realize it becasue it is includeed in your taxes. One way or another you in Canada are paying an average of $3,500/year per person on healthcare. Whether you are paying to an insurance company or to the gubment you are still paing it. Nothing is free.

technically that is true, however i don't have to worry about mortgaging my home to meet medical bills. i don't have to worry about getting screwed out of my coverage and insurance. i don't have to worry about expensive operations that i can't afford. any procedure and operation is covered.

By that same logic is the water company or the electric company obligated to provide their services? what happens when you fail to pay them?
Do you have a "right" to clean drinking water if you don't pay the water company?

clean drinking water is provided by the municipality you live in. here, we pay for what we use, otherwise people would be abusing it and wasting water. i can see why you brought up water, however water can be wasted and the system abused, whereas you can't keep going back and back and back to your doctor when you're perfectly healthy and there is nothing wrong with you.

Yes but at what expense to the rest of us? Like I said, you all have been doing this for some time so it is old hat and readily accepted but to us the idea of paying more to cover people we don't know ( and and what level?) is kinda scary. Obama has done a really poor job of explaining the whole thing and telling us exactly what it will cost. Right now people are just selling the idea but not providing the details....like the real cost. Unfortunately both side are supporting or refuting a bill that has not even been finalized.

you wouldn't necessarily be paying more. there is so much waste in the defence budget, as well as the costs of american empire. and, obama and dems are proposing higher taxes on the wealthy to meet health care costs, which a majority seem to support. i do agree though that obama has done a terrible job of explaining and pitching the legislation to the american people. while americans overwhelmingly still support a public health insurance option and higher taxes on the wealthy, a majority disapprove of the way obama has been handling the issue, ie doing a crummy job:

American voters disapprove 52 - 39 percent of the way President Obama is handling health care, down from 46 - 42 percent approval July 1, with 60 - 34percent disapproval from independent voters.

There is still strong support for critical elements of the Obama/Democratic plan:

• 62 - 32 percent in favor of giving people the option of a government insurance plan;
• 61 - 36 percent for higher taxes on high income earners to pay for health care reform;

quinnipiac university poll (http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1357)

again I don't think you really understand the intricacies of what we have right now and how implementing a Public policy would effect that. I am not saying you should either as I can hardly comprehend it myself. in short let me say this... the only public option that can compete with the private option would need to be a very comperehensive plan and thus...expensive to all of us. If it is a "basic" plan then that means it has limits and is not as good as the private plans. Either way that sucks for everyone... see what I'm saying?

not really. with public health insurance, such as medicare and medicaid, you get it immediately. americans love it. however, with private insurance, it's not a 100% guarantee that the private insurance company is going to provide your coverage. you can get denied as they will meticulously go through your medical history and try and find a way to deny you coverage, in order to maintain a profit.

I just want to others to realize that it's not as simple as saying "now we have national healthcare...everyone is covered". That would be like telling everyone in Canada that "no one has healthcare...everyone go buy insurance". You can't wave a magic wand at this.

no of course not. but the health care reform is only proposing a public option to compete with the private health insurance industry.

PS SAZ- I love the conversation. This is what I don't get from from talking to like mided people. Thank you.

you're welcome. it's a nice change to have a rational, civil and polite conservative around here.