Best Rap Crew/Group Ever

[BangBangBunny]

Tangent from another post that merited its own discussion. Only the truth is, there is no discussion. The Best Rap Crew/Group Ever is easily – ready for it? - N.W.A.

In terms of influence, no other crew even comes remotely close. Sure, you can make the Beasties longetivity / more better albums / minimal guest stars argument directly against N.W.A (as a group), but come on.

N.W.A not only are credited for spawning the entire West Coast / Gangsta Rap movement (they might not have been first, but they definitely made the biggest early splash), but are directly responsible for the careers of Dr. Dre, Ice Cube, Snoop Dogg, Eminem, Death Row Records, and less directly, but hard to argue - 50 Cent, Bone Thugs & Harmony, Tha Dogg Pound, D-12, The Game, Nate Dogg, Warren G, and countless other acts.

Ice Cube was one of the first rappers doing real movies (I do love me some Krush Groove, but again, come on), opening the door for countless rappers to realize there were avenues of making a brand outside of just laying raps. Boyz n the Hood & Friday are both epic movies (1991 and 1995 –- 2Pac had some notoriety for his acting with Juice, Poetic Justice, and Above the Rim, but was probably more recognized for his acting skills vs. rapping skills at the time these films were released), not too mention all the soundtracks spawned from movies Cube had influence over (and other soundtracks Cube appeared on). Not too mention Amerikkka’s Most Wanted, Kill at Will, Death Certificate, and Predator were all classics

And Dre probably brought The Chronic into the mainstream in more ways than one. That album and those videos alone influenced a whole culture of misguided suburban kids. And after that? Helped bring up Snoop (who is a worldwide brand), brought the sound to Death Row Records (Suge is definitely to credit for a lot of their success), brought Eminem to the mainstream (who in turn helps 50 Cent / G-Unit), released 2001 (I still hear those songs practically every time I go out), helped bring up Game, and is still relevant having just wrapped up a top selling album with Relapse.

You don’t even have to like a lot / any of these acts, but it is hard to deny they have tons of fans. And when you look at that Forbes 2009 Hip Hop Money list, (50, Eminem, Dre, Snoop, & The Game), they might not directly be N.W.A., but without the success of N.W.A., I don’t think this sort of influence/wealth gets created. Not to mention the tons of people who have jobs just from these guys and their brands.

Respect to Eazy E, Ren, and Yella… Props to the Arabian Prince, Egyptian Lover, and the D.O.C…

So yeah, album for album, the Beasties vs. N.W.A., the Beasties may win that battle from that perspective, but when you look at the bigger picture regarding the culture, music, influence, the business of hip hop, and everything that has spawned from the success of the World’s Most Dangerous Crew, it’s pretty obvious. I feel like I haven’t even scratched the surface.


Respect, Peace, and too much free time,
BBB

[Deep_Sea_Rain]

De La Soul.

[adam_f]

2 Live Jews

[Guy Incognito]

De La Soul.

yes or maybe MC Miker G and Dejay Sven

Beastie boys?

[checkyourprez]

wu tang

[mickill]

That was very well put.

I wanted to make a similar thread a while back. But I think you worded it better than I could have. I agree that NWA is easily the most influential/important rap group ever. You can't even count how many branches grew from that tree anymore.

Groups like De La, Tribe, Mobb Deep, EpMd and Outkast are obviously among the best, and have made some of the greatest albums ever, but their influences aren't as far-reaching. They never just completely dominated the genre at one point. And while the Beasties are without a doubt one of the greatest groups ever, they a) haven't done anything to influence the course of hip hop in any way since 1989 and b) are beyond being labeled just a "rap group".

As far as absolute greatest rap groups of all time go, I think only a few groups are actual contenders:

NWA
Run DMC
Wu-Tang
Public Enemy

Probably in that order. These groups were all at one point the face of rap music. And not because radio played them or they got tons of promo from the machine. They established themselves as brands and the people got behind them because they made quality music that moved the culture forward without selling out to the mainstream.

[checkyourprez]

That was very well put.

I wanted to make a similar thread a while back. But I think you worded it better than I could have. I agree that NWA is easily the most influential/important rap group ever. You can't even count how many branches grew from that tree anymore.

Groups like De La, Tribe, Mobb Deep, EpMd and Outkast are obviously among the best, and have made some of the greatest albums ever, but their influences aren't as far-reaching. They never just completely dominated the genre at one point. And while the Beasties are without a doubt one of the greatest groups ever, they a) haven't done anything to influence the course of hip hop in any way since 1989 and b) are beyond being labeled just a "rap group".

As far as absolute greatest rap groups of all time go, I think only a few groups are actual contenders:

NWA
Run DMC
Wu-Tang
Public Enemy

Probably in that order. These groups were all at one point the face of rap music. And not because radio played them or they got tons of promo from the machine. They established themselves as brands and the people got behind them because they made quality music that moved the culture forward without selling out to the mainstream.

ahh public enemy how could i forget.


that makes it tougher on me.

wu tang or public enemy. hmm.

[mickill]

Yeah, PE broke a lot of barriers. They were a serious threat at one point.

Can't forget about Eric B & Rakim for kicking off the golden age. They'd be in the top 5 just based on them being the first to sample James Brown and Rakim chaging the way everybody rapped forever. But their influence on rap was huge.

[RobMoney$]

I remember the first time I saw PE.
Between the S1W's doing their act, and Flava running around on stage cracked out of his mind, the entire arena full of people had no idea what to make of them.
Know who they were opening for?
The Beasties. 1987 License to Ill tour.


And I'm sure everyone knows the story about Horovitz basically discovering LL's demo in Rubin's dorm and convincing Rubin to sign him.

The Beasties influence on Hip Hop is very underrated.

[mickill]

Yes, but again, they didn't really influence anything in hip hop after 1989. And both of those examples were contributions, not influences. Besides, they didn't select PE as an opening act, PE had recently signed to Def Jam and were given the opportunity by default.

Nobody's denying that they have an incredible body of work or that they were once very influential as a rap group. They just never did it to the degree where you'd think they were completely running shit. I mean, I listen to the Clipse more than any of these groups, but I'd never suggest they were the best rap group ever.

For the record, I think the Beasties have had more consistently good albums than any other rap group ever, but how many have made a direct impact on RAP MUSIC?

[The Notorious LOL]

Yeah Id go with NWA as well.






Nothing really more to discuss, its been summed up well.

[Randetica]

so far so right

[RobMoney$]

It's just a matter of opinion.

You're from the Left coast, and were a teenager around the time NWA was coming out. It probably had more of an impact on you than the Beasties.
I'm from the East coast and I was growing up when Run and the Beasties were the face of Hip Hop.


Also, I'm shocked by your marginalizing their impact on Hip Hop post '89.
They're probably responsible for pushing the definition of "Hip Hop" further than anyone.
And most of that boundary pushing came after 1989.

[Odie]

Thats a long list of "what they did after".

[destructo]

The Lonely Island.

Fuck land, I'm on a boat, motherfucker
Fuck trees, I climb buoys, motherfucker
I'm on the deck with my boys, motherfucker
This boat engine make noise, motherfucker

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/lonelyisland/imonaboat.html

[Guy Incognito]

I think the beasties have had a huge impact on music and expanding what hip hop can do and who listens it but i do understand what mickill is saying.

However, a lot of the points about NWA being infuential were things that happened after they split up and the fact that the beasties are still together still trying new and different stuff shouldnt be ignored. I'm not saying NWA werent a very important group cos they were and i can see both sides of this argument i just dont think the beastie boys can be dismissed as quickly as some have on here.

Dre has continued to be very influential but has everybody else in that band? Not sure about that. Compared to a group who are still doin it and still puttin out good stuff. Is there an NWA remixes board? I dunno, but there is a beastie boys one and that is one example of how they are still infuencing music.

[The Notorious LOL]

Consider all the artists that became popular as a result of the core members of NWA....and no one else is even coming close to touching that level of influence.

[roosta]

MC Ren deserved a successful solo career.

I had the cassette tape of Kizz My Black Azz, has some tunes on it, if I recall.

Yeah, NWA.

The group that got me into hip-hop, so from a purely personal point of view they were the most influential group.

But as has been said, look at NWA's influence...untouchable.

[cj hood]

crew: Wu -with so many members they're all over the game.
group: Beasties-longevity, longevity, longevity!

as far as influencing hiphop goes...what about Stetsasonic? they were incorporating instruments into hiphop before the beasties, roots, jay-z etc.

[Guy Incognito]

Consider all the artists that became popular as a result of the core members of NWA....and no one else is even coming close to touching that level of influence.

i am not doubting NWA's members infuence or importance but this thread is called Best Rap Crew Ever. Not "Best Rap Crew who were really good then split up and did lots of different amazing infuential stuff". they would win that thread hands down.

I'm not even arguing that the beasties are more influential than NWA, i am saying that to dismiss them as not influential for 20 years is an error. They are still doing it, and still trying new stuff.
Sure, they may influence all manner of genres and not "RAP" but they are still infuential and instrumental in getting hip hop in all kinds of areas.

I do understand why they arent just accepted as a rap group because of their output but i still think in essence they are a rap group, using their own style and ideas which is basically what i consider hip hop to be.

[RobMoney$]

Consider all the artists that became popular as a result of the core members of NWA....and no one else is even coming close to touching that level of influence.


Just the other day while talking to my 60 yr. old neighbor, I heard him say "Back in the day".

Walk into any Men's store and see what type of hats they have for sale.
The Beastie style Fedora's are everywhere.
I'm not saying they invented those hats, but they weren't selling them at the Men's Warehouse before the Beasties started sporting them on TMU tour.

Not to mention that LTI was basically responsible for introducing hip hop to white america.

When you consider how much the Beasties not only influenced hip-hop music, but other shit like fashion, and verbage that is commonly used in the english language today, I think their level of influence trumps NWA's by miles.


It's like arguing that the Yardbirds are the most influencial band in rock history because Clapton, Beck, and Jimmy Page all came out of that band and went on to greatness later on.

NWA had one good album, and the only barriers they broke with their music was advocating violence towards cops with "Fuck tha Police".
I'd argue they're pretty much responsible for setting the black cause back with that album more than anything.

[adam_f]

For all intents and purposes, NWA only released one album because after Cube left, well, things fell apart. And if you look at Straight Outta Compton itself, really only the first three tracks (the title track, Fuck Tha Police and Gangsta, Gangsta), they're really the only tracks that delve into the ghetto life and gangsta side of hip hop. The rest of the album, aside from Express Yourself is standard hip hop, and even delves into mainstream, almost electro sounds with Something 2 Dance 2 and Quiet on the Set.

It's a good album, don't get me wrong, but the most influential tracks only consume about 1/5 of the album with the rest being what today is considered standard hip hop, nothing incredibly memorable. When you look at a group such as PE, who has sustained as a group for twenty years now even given Flav's side antics, I would consider them the most influential rap group ever. They had an agenda that they made clear, and have managed to keep it fresh over a twenty year span even as their popularity has declined. At their peak, arguably with Fight the Power, they managed to make a message mainstream and created a mantra that still is relevant today. They fueled the fire for other militant rap groups or MC's with a message to share, MC's like Mr. Lif whose recent I Heard It Today album has been slept on pretty hard by pretty much everybody.

Maybe it's the style of hip hop you prefer, whether it's gangsta or mainstream or backpacker, but personally I have to say PE is the most influential group because they continue to stress their message as a group and not as solo artists who turned out popular.

[mickill]

Not that I'm disagreeing with you on the PE thing or anything, adam, but the last 5 or so PE albums haven't really been that fresh. Just sayin.

By the way guys, NWA had two good albums. Two of the best rap albums ever. And citing Fuck The Police as their only notable contribution to Rap is a pretty unfair assessment of their overall significance.

By the way, Rob, you can't seriously be trying to imply that the Beasties are responsible for the popularity of fedoras. You think nobody was wearing those hats before 2007 and they're hot now because The Men's Warehouse sells them?

Like I said, they've had plenty of influence over popular culture throughout their careers, but their influences don't really resonate in the hip hop sense.

[mickill]

Just to clarify what I've been trying to get at here, I'll use Jay-Z as an example: he's a taste-maker, not only in the sense that he can literally start and end a trend through his participation or renouncing of it, but he does it within the genre. He's a mainstream icon, but he still has a lot of influence over what happens in RAP MUSIC. He has rap audiences as well as other rappers emulating all of his moves (jacking his flow, rhyming over soulful beats, wearing button ups, listening to gay shit like Linkin Park and Coldplay etc). He's "dominated" rap culture for a while now. The same way that PE, Wu Tang, Run DMC and NWA all once did. Not to mention he raps really really good.

Unfortunately, as incredible as the Beasties are as a group, they've NEVER been responsible for changing the course of RAP MUSIC to the extent that those groups have. It's not because they couldn't, it just never happened. For example, De La Soul was working on 3 Feet High and Rising at the same time the Beasties were working on PB, which a lot of people thought had a quite a few similarities (especially at the time). However, being that 3 Feet came out 2 months before PB, De La went on to receive the lion's share of the credit for being the first group to take sampling to that level.

Same with LTI; at the time, it was seen as a distinctly Run DMC-influenced album. They were even accused of making a mockery of rap music. Obviously rap audiences were kind of split on the whole thing, but I remember seeing an interview from around '87 where even Biz Markie was calling them out for making a joke out of rap. Nobody questioned the validity of Run DMC, NWA, Wu or PE ever.

And since it's already been brought up - to elaborate on how they've never really had that control over hip hop audiences - maybe race was a big factor back then. I think it's fair to say that there wasn't as many white people listening to rap during the '85-'89 era. Whereas now, the majority of people buying rap are caucasian suburbanites. So yeah, they're largely responsible for that. But in the time since those barriers were knocked down, how many truly incredible caucasian rappers/rap groups would you say were spawned as a result of the Beastie Boys?

[RobMoney$]

By the way, Rob, you can't seriously be trying to imply that the Beasties are responsible for the popularity of fedoras. You think nobody was wearing those hats before 2007 and they're hot now because The Men's Warehouse sells them?

I said "I know they didn't invent fedoras".

I'm just saying that Fedoras are "enjoying a renaissance" for lack of a better way of putting it, and that the Beasties definitely played a role in it.
They've had a huge influence on Hip Hop fashion over the years.

The fact that the style is as widespread as being in somewhere like Men's Warehouse is pretty significant.

[RobMoney$]

Same with LTI; at the time, it was seen as a distinctly Run DMC-influenced album.

Hip Hop as a whole, was heavily Run-DMC influenced at the time.
Also, both Raising Hell & LTI were heavily Russel & Rubin influenced.


They were even accused of making a mockery of rap music. Obviously rap audiences were kind of split on the whole thing, but I remember seeing an interview from around '87 where even Biz Markie was calling them out for making a joke out of rap. Nobody questioned the validity of Run DMC, NWA, Wu or PE ever.

The Beasties themselves said that album was intended to be a mockery, which is one of the many reasons they left Russ & Rubin...creative differences.
It's still one of the best Hip Hop albums of all-time, even as a mockery.



I think were just both interpreting the definition of "Most Influencial Group" differently at this point.

[Gareth]

you know you've done something when dynamite hack covers your shit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsqONjjMDfw

[RobMoney$]

I can dig it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw0VVRqlf3U)

[RobMoney$]

Also, I would like to direct the jury's attention to this thread I will be entering as "Exhibit A" for the defense of the Beastie Boys.


Ice Cube heavily influenced by Beastie Boys? (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=92192)
started by one Mr. Michael Ill?


So the Beasties inspired Ice Cube & NWA. Which means using your logic, everything that NWA is responsible for inspiring in Hip Hop, should also be credited to the Beasties.

[Gareth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG2EGOB9-lc

ok let's end this covers thing
cos the straight outta compton one (above) makes me cringe really badly!

[cj hood]

any nonblack mc to ever touch a mic has been directly influenced by the beasties...not to mention all the heavy metal rap (korn, limp bizkit, etc)...

house of pain, 3rd bass, eminem, cypress hill etc .....

in Source's 10 year anniversary? issue with kool herc and afrika b. on the cover...they ask mc's what their favorite hiphop album of all time is....beasite records were mentioned more than once....i gotta dig that one out of the basement.

[Kid Presentable]

It's interesting because NWA have done all of this by imploding. Cube's departure spawned not only his incredible solo career, but also was the catalyst for Dre's shift in production style and eventual move to Death Row, which had a cascading effect that I needn't re-cap for anybody.

Thing is, I start thinking that their mention here is more to do with the good (mis)fortune that the group split, for their music taken as is may not have been as powerful a force of influence. Efil4zaggin is hands down one of the best produced albums of 90s, but as it is, if it had stopped there even with Cube doing his thing, their historical impact may not be so far reaching.

So then I start thinking about other points in the thread. Beasties, yeah they sort of changed what you put on a hip-hop record (and still call it hip-hop). Even so, the early 90s treated them more as a grunge anomaly (mainstream did, at the very least). The hats point is a little bit ridic. I think around 2004 the Boys started embracing trends rather than setting them, but I dunno.

I like hoods point about Stet, not only for the instruments (and the impact that has had on hip-hop in a live setting is huge), but if you follow that path, Paul went on to De La and Frukwan & Paul did Gravediggaz with RZA before 36 Chambers had even been released. Yeah Niggamortis came out after 36 but you could attribute some of the success of Wu-Tang to the same kind of flow-chart family-tree that the OP chose to do with NWA. At the very least you can connect them by circumstance.

In fact, if you go a step further, Stet --> De La then fed into the Native Tongues movement, which has had a pretty big impact throughout the 90s. The 'Tongue' groups particularly, but even shit like Brand Nubian, the Roots to an extent, Digable Planets rode that, Pharcyde, Souls Of Mischief - anything that eschewed violent imagery, with that whole positivity thing. Maybe. Then artists like Talib and Mos, they definitely don't fall far from that tree. Obvious modern examples would be your Kanyes and Lupes. Think then about all of the artists you can attach to every one of those branches. It sort of makes the Native Tongues influence look quite massive.

I think it holds weight, but we'd all love to write our own reviews, right? I really liked the original post, and short of saying 'I agree' it was hard to add anything that hadn't already been well said. Native Tongues has been my response previously, but only because of the fact that the group(s) influenced others musically and philosophically through their music, rather than a domino effect caused by breakups etc. NWA would be the 'best' if the parameters around 'best' dealt strictly with how far reaching and longstanding were the implications and outcomes of their dissolution.

Depending on where your tastes go, you could make a reasonable case for either, I guess. I still hear NWA's musical influence in hip-hop, but I wonder how that would have gone without them breaking up. It sort of becomes Dre's influence, Cube's influence, Ezy's influence rather than NWA's.

[checkyourprez]

wu tang as a group and solo between 93-97 is the most hard hitting rap in put out by any group i feel. no other 4 year period of work can beat what they did there.

more or less my reasoning for putting them at the top.


even after that they have still put out good stuff, but those years just had classic after classic pumping out of the wu chambers.

[mickill]

I have that anniversary issue of the Source. If I remember correctly, Prince Paul chose LTI and Q-Tip cited PB as his favorite. But count how many times Raising Hell, SOC and Nation of Millions (Incidentally, I think one of the Beasties chose Yo! Bumrush The Show) are mentioned.

Rob, if you really feel that the Beasties and NWA deserve equal credit for influencing many of the groups that followed, that's fine. But like I said, the Beastie's influence (in terms of directing the movement of the culture) after '89 was very limited. To continue to use NWA as an example, their influences went beyond just music; good or bad, they are singularly responsible for popularizing everything from Old English to Raiders gear to '64 Impalas to Dickies to the sudden influx of profanity that suddenly became the norm in rap music from then on. That's not to say that everyone from the Beasties to Ice-T and Schoolly D hadn't already touched on a lot of those things, but they didn't influence kids in the most suburban/non-ghetto places to suddenly start adopting these things into their lifestyles. And that's where the biggest difference is: How significant was the impact of either group in a cultural sense?

The Beasties never had that kind of control over rap audiences. The only way you could really tell if someone was intentionally emulating their style is if you saw a VW emblem around their neck. You couldn't necessarily tell if someone listened to the Beastie Boys based on how they looked prior to the CYH era. I'm not saying that this is absolutely critical, but with any genre of music, the audiences (especially younger ones) look for those fashion cues. As the Kid so eloquently put it in the above post, the Beasties sort of became an anomaly in rap. They were more embraced by audiences that didn't even listen to rap, really. Which, admittedly, is an impressive feat all its own, anyway.

[Guy Incognito]

^ good points but i think the whole nwa are the beast is an argument that people on here are always obviuosly gonna disagree with but i agree with the impact thing. only just though, in uk the beasties had a massive impact due to the press bullshit but it opened a lot of teenagers eys to hip hop for the first time over here so a siminlar impact to nwa in states i suppose

[Jiberish]

Also, I would like to direct the jury's attention to this thread I will be entering as "Exhibit A" for the defense of the Beastie Boys. Ice Cube heavily influenced by Beastie Boys? (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=92192)
started by one Mr. Michael Ill?
So the Beasties inspired Ice Cube & NWA. Which means using your logic, everything that NWA is responsible for inspiring in Hip Hop, should also be credited to the Beasties.

You make a great point here. They were so obviously into the Beastie's version of hip hop, plus I remember N.W.A. rapping over some Beastie instrumentals.

Did JFK inspire people to stop wearing fedoras? Yes.
Did the Beastie Boys inspire people to start wearing them again? No.