The Real Death Panels

[kaiser soze]

In this thread lets expose the death panels *ehem* the insurance companies who refuse to provide coverage or just quit on their customers (whilst keeping profit margins comfortably high)

I'm sure we've heard about the fucks who denied a baby coverage for being fat so I won't do that one (since they have changed their position after being exposed)

So here's another warm and cuddly insurance company story for ya

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/14/ny-insurance-company-tries-to-rid-itself-of-high-c/

Ian Pearl has fought for his life every day of his 37 years. Confined to a wheelchair and hooked to a breathing tube, the muscular dystrophy victim refuses to give up.

But his insurance company already has.

Legally barred from discriminating against individuals who submit large claims, the New York-based insurer simply canceled lines of coverage altogether in entire states to avoid paying high-cost claims like Mr. Pearl's.

In an e-mail, one Guardian Life Insurance Co. executive called high-cost patients such as Mr. Pearl "dogs" that the company could "get rid of."

Guardian, a 150-year-old mutual company, reported profits of $437 million last year, a 50 percent increase over $292 million in 2007. It paid dividends of $723 million to policyholders and had $4.3 billion in capital reserves, according to its annual report. The company's investment income totaled $1.5 billion that year, a small increase from the year earlier.

Profits Always over People

[travesty]

His Medical treatments cost $1M/ year
His premium is $44,400 per year ($3,700/ month)

That means that Guardian, and thus all of their other policy holders are shelling out $955,600 per year for Ian. Does that seems reasonable?

My point here is not whether Ian deserves the medical care or the medical coverage. My point is that at some point, whether done by a private insurance company or done by a government program, you have to draw the line on what is and what is not going to be covered. Ultimately that line is drawn based on $$ and not sense, regardless of who is running the program.

If we are talking about a government plan then the budget for the plan still has to come from somewhere, i.e. taxes. Taxes are a finite resource. Just like a private company can only charge so much for a service before no one buys it, so too can a government only tax so much for it's services before the people alter the legislation or finally revolt. There is a limit to what people will pay for anything. You have to draw the line on what, and how much services you can offer within that determined budget.

If you think a government plan is going to cover everyone for everything you are in la la land. It can't and neither can private insurers. You can't afford that, I can't afford that and America can't afford that, especially right now. I guarantee Ian's 24/7 home nursing isn't going to be in ANY government plan. But that's the tip of the iceberg. How much are we as a people willing to pay to keep people alive beyond their natural life expectancy? Do we spend a couple million a year to hook Ted William's head up to some thawing machines? Should we pay for robotic exoskeletons so people who are too fat to get off the couch can get out the 7-11 for more nachos? Where do you draw the line? That's a hard fucking question no doubt but I don't see where a government bureaucrat will be any more adept or compassionate about drawing that line than your average corporate stooge.

[saz]

well, medicare and medicaid cover people already. yeah but fuck it, if it's too expensive, let 'em die. tax dollars should be used to bomb poor brown people overseas and occupy countries that didn't attack america. and reward corrupt ceos.

[kaiser soze]

travesty - do you ever bitch about your car insurance premiums paying for other drivers reckless driving considering they can CONTROL their behavior, I'll tell ya I hate seeing my premium going up for nothing I have done.

This person is genuinely in need and once again you fail to see that your position supports the "Death Panel" mentality that many insurance companies seem to be espousing as of late.

I guess you didn't see the part about the 100s of millions in profits, yeah your premium is going there too.

You bitch about how it affects you but this person in need can also bitch how it affects them. One day you might get really really sick and need extensive coverage, you really believe that for everything you pay in you'll get special treatment? Tell that to my dad who paid for health insurance through two providers and still was left to die due to dementia, The care was too expensive and the fine print said "Uh, who are you again?" - Damn straight that shit is DEATH PANEL.

So kill off the weak, is this what you support? I thought the right was fighting against that....well the joke is on us!

[travesty]

I'm with you bro. There is a whole lot of ill spent tax $$ in this country. If that were all re-routed to healthcare instead of rasing taxes, I'd be all for it. Why isn't that more of an issue of debate?

Yes Medicare and Medicaid cover people but what do they cover? The benefits of those porgrams have limits too, and fankly pretty low ones. They don't cover 24 hour in-home nursing, in fact, they barely cover senior living. When my grandmother needed round the clock supervision and medical care due to alzheimers, medicare didn't even cover the cost of a shady rest home let alone a decent one. So don't try and pretend that those programs have some great coverage that keeps people alive forever because they don't.

If you get the flu or break an arm Medicaid will help you out. If you have lymphoma and need serious treatment you are not going to like Medicaid's coverage at all. Some private physicians will not provide chemotherapy in their offices to patients with Medicaid as primary or secondary insurance because of the low payment allowances. In most areas, they are under no obligation to treat Medicaid patients at all.

So the end of the day my point holds true....everything has a limit and no matter what kind of reform is put in place somewhere someone is not going to get the care they and their families feel they deserve. I know it's hard for liberals to think about that but fuck, everyone eventually dies dude. If you can't deal with that and think it's unfair, take it up with your God.

[travesty]

travesty - do you ever bitch about your car insurance premiums paying for other drivers reckless driving considering they can CONTROL their behavior, I'll tell ya I hate seeing my premium going up for nothing I have done.

This person is genuinely in need and once again you fail to see that your position supports the "Death Panel" mentality that many insurance companies seem to be espousing as of late.

I guess you didn't see the part about the 100s of millions in profits, yeah your premium is going there too.

You bitch about how it affects you but this person in need can also bitch how it affects them. One day you might get really really sick and need extensive coverage, you really believe that for everything you pay in you'll get special treatment? Tell that to my dad who paid for health insurance through two providers and still was left to die due to dementia, The care was too expensive and the fine print said "Uh, who are you again?" - Damn straight that shit is DEATH PANEL.

So kill off the weak, is this what you support? I thought the right was fighting against that....well the joke is on us!

Dude you are missing the point. My point is, sigh AGAIN, that neither having a government plan, a private plan nor a plan run by aliens from outer space is going to eliminate the fact someone, somewhere is going to have to decide what to cover and what not to cover. Yes the insurance companies do it now based on profits, but the gubment is going to have to make those same actuarial decisions (and they already do with Medicare and Medicaid) and those decisions are still going to be based on $$. These "Death Panels" you are so worked up about are never going away bro, it's called reality.

In Ian's case Medicare and Medicaid are already saying that his care is too expensive, because they don't cover the exhorbitant care he requires either. He would likely have never made it as long as he has if he had been under government care. WTF does that prove?

Bro I am sorry for your loss and I can't even imagine what losing my father would be like.

[saz]

Dude you are missing the point. My point is, sigh AGAIN, that neither having a government plan, a private plan nor a plan run by aliens from outer space is going to eliminate the fact someone, somewhere is going to have to decide what to cover and what not to cover. Yes the insurance companies do it now based on profits, but the gubment is going to have to make those same actuarial decisions (and they already do with Medicare and Medicaid) and those decisions are still going to be based on $$. These "Death Panels" you are so worked up about are never going away bro, it's called reality.

no, the reality is that i have guaranteed public health insurance which will cover everything, no matter how extreme your condition might be. if every other western nation can guarantee either public health insurance, or regulate the hell out of private health insurance companies (ie holland (http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2009/08/10/ldt.netherlands.healthcare.cnn)), than so can america.

[travesty]

Where do you live dude?

[saz]

canuckistan

[kaiser soze]

"Your house rotting from the inside out? Well Fuck Off!"

Insurance companies denying claims and dropping renewals for homeowners who have houses made from Chinese Drywall - known to damage pipes, electronics, certain precious metals, and quite possibly poison the homeowners.

http://www.comcast.net/articles/finance/20091015/US.Chinese.Drywall/

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — James and Maria Ivory's dreams of a relaxing retirement on Florida's Gulf Coast were put on hold when they discovered their new home had been built with Chinese drywall that emits sulfuric fumes and corrodes pipes. It got worse when they asked their insurer for help — and not only was their claim denied, but they've been told their entire policy won't be renewed.

Tom Zutell, spokesman for the Florida Office of Insurance Regulation, said the cancellations are troubling, but legal. No law prevents insurance companies from canceling policies because of Chinese drywall.

"We are staying out of the fray at the moment," he said.

Even if a homeowner does not file a claim over the drywall and remains covered, they could later be denied a claim for a fire or another calamity if insurance investigators determine the home contained undisclosed Chinese drywall.

Damned if you do, Damned if you don't. Now I believe the contractors or manufacturers of this shit drywall should be held accountable undoubtedly, but how much in tax payers dollars will the lawsuits cost...hmmm. But these insurance companies are looking all too great with the denials and dropping of renewals as well.



P.S.

Fuck China again

[travesty]

no, the reality is that i have guaranteed public health insurance which will cover everything, no matter how extreme your condition might be. if every other western nation can guarantee either public health insurance, or regulate the hell out of private health insurance companies (ie holland (http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2009/08/10/ldt.netherlands.healthcare.cnn)), than so can america.

Well no, let's be honest here. They don't cover EVERYTHING and that is my point. Your system doesn't necessarily cover chiropractics, perscription drugs, bariatric surgeries and other beneficial and potentially life changing procedures that it does not deem "medically necessary". Again that's my point.....someone, somewhere ( allegedly sitting on a "death panel") is deciding what "medically necessary" means in your society. Besides, if you can't get in to a doctor for a brain tumor removal until after it has already killed you then what good is it knowing that it would have been covered? Healthcare delayed IS healthcare denied. I'm not arguing that the bar is probably set far higher in Canada than the US, but just that there is, in fact, a bar; regardless of who is running the system.

Your system is essentially a state run sysem not a federal one. My understanding is that the provinces collect the taxes and distribute the payments, not the federal government. They also decide what is and what is not covered and there is variation amongst them on this topic which again proves my point. However a true Federal system, which is what we are debating down here, is a complety different animal. I, and I think most Americans, would be far less leery of our State Government running our healthcare than the douchebags in Washington.

[saz]

no, it doesn't cover everything (ie superficial comestic surgery etc), but it covers your general health. our provincial governments decide what is medically necessary and we are very satisfied with that. and people are not denied life saving surgery because they can't see a doctor or surgeon (american right-wing fear mongering). "healthcare delayed is healthcare denied" is bullshit, because you will eventually get what you need and what your tax dollars pay for. in some instances you may have to wait a little bit, but you will receive what you need. federal government cutbacks to health care funding in the 1990s helped cause this dillema, and waiting lists are one of the top priorities of provinicial governments across the country.

we have public health insurance, but doctors operate privately. doctors bill our provinical governments. we don't have scum-sucking private health insurance firms, who act as a mafia like middle-man, who pay doctors and collect 30% of your money for their profit.

our system isn't as kick ass as france's our italy's, but we love it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDeYBGLTHN4&feature=related

[kaiser soze]

"Need Coverage? Sorry! Our lobbyists are feverishly spending your money to keep us in control"

"p.s. Your premiums will go up to incur the cost of fucking politicians and your sick grandmother. Have a nice Day."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/10/15/health.care.lobbying/index.html

(CNN) -- The amount of money lobbyists are spending on health care reform could break records, and now that the five bills before Congress have cleared committee, that spending is expected to go into overdrive.
Lobbyists are hitting the Capitol to schmooze lawmakers.

Lobbyists are hitting the Capitol to schmooze lawmakers.

"It is sort of a Super Bowl of lobbying for health care reform. The lobbyists are winning so far. But the game's not over yet," said Rep. Jim Cooper, D-Tennessee.

[travesty]

and people are not denied life saving surgery because they can't see a doctor or surgeon (american right-wing fear mongering). "healthcare delayed is healthcare denied" is bullshit, because you will eventually get what you need and what your tax dollars pay for.


Who defines what "general health" entails for your society?

If no one dies in your country from waiting for healthcare then why do companies like this one (http://www.timelymedical.ca/news-video-6.html) even exist in Canada? Why does "supplemental insurance (http://www.insurance-canada.ca/health-products/health-supplemental/health-supplemental.php)" even exist? I can't find anything refuting the fact that Mr. McCreith's (http://www.timelymedical.ca/news-video-6.html) video story is untrue so I have to believe this couple is telling the truth. If they can't get in to get an MRI for 4 months in Toronto how long are people waiting in Saskatoon? To say that you will "eventually" get the care you need is extremely disconcerning. More often than not, critical healthcare is not something that can wait and you yourself admit that this is a problem in your system.

OH, and apparently in Canada you also have to pay out of your pocket for an Ambulance ride (http://dailygleaner.canadaeast.com/rss/article/715422) from your wrecked car to the hospital. But don't worry, they'll bill you later (n)

[saz]

the lindsay mcreith story is absolute bullshit. in any emergency situation, you receive immediate care. there hasn't been one single case of someone dying because they've had to wait for a surgery. mcreith teamed up with fellow schyster shona holmes, and have attempted to launch a lawsuit against the ontario government. holmes' claims have been completely debunked.


Anti-medicare ad an exaggeration: experts (http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/07/31/medicare-ad-exaggeration523.html)

CBC News
Last Updated: Friday, July 31, 2009 | 8:20 AM ET


A U.S. ad featuring an Ontario woman who spoke out against the Canadian health-care system may be exaggerating the severity of her condition, say medical experts.

Shona Holmes has appeared in U.S. ads saying she had to go to the Mayo Clinic in Arizona to be treated for a rare type of cyst at the base of her brain — a Rathke's cleft cyst. She mortgaged her home and paid $100,000 to be treated there because getting care in Canada involved a six-month wait, she said. She is currently suing OHIP to recoup those costs.

Holmes, from Waterdown, Ont., said she would have died had she relied on the Canadian health-care system and waited to see a specialist.

But the director of the brain tumour research centre at the Montreal Neurological Institute says he thinks that claim is "an exaggeration."

Dr. Rolando Del Maestro says the lesion Holmes was diagnosed with is benign, and usually slow-growing. It typically does not require urgent attention, he said.

"If it's a real emergency in the sense that the patient's visual function is getting substantially worse, the patients would be brought in immediately and would be operated on the next day," he said.

In 2005, Holmes, complaining of headaches and vision loss, went to see a Canadian doctor and was put on a six-month waiting list to see specialist.

After trying unsuccessfully to expedite the process, she was diagnosed and treated at the Mayo Clinic. Holmes said U.S. doctors considered the cyst a tumour, and that it would cause death if not removed immediately.

But neurosurgeon Michael Schwartz of Toronto's Sunnybrook Hospital says he's never seen or heard of a death from a Rathke's cyst. He told CBC News symptoms can be alleviated if the cyst is drained or part of it removed to take pressure off the optic nerve. "Then the person's vision almost always improves.

"If somebody called me about a patient that was losing her vision or had a structural abnormality of the brain I would see them within days."



A reality check on a reality check

For years, Canadians have feared the American health care system; now Americans are being told to fear ours

By Julie Mason, The Ottawa Citizen
July 11, 2009


Both CNN and McConnell made a big deal out of Shona Holmes, an Ontario woman who claims she was forced by Ontario's health system to go to the United States for life-saving surgery for a brain tumour. She claims that in 2005 delays in access to treatment at home made it necessary to go to the Mayo Clinic in Arizona and pay $97,000 for her care.

In 2007, Holmes was part of a court case brought by the Canadian Constitution Foundation against the government of Ontario. The case challenges Ontario's "government-run monopolistic" health system that prohibits the sale of private health care and private health insurance for essential health services. It is still before the courts.

Holmes has become the darling of conservatives and the stop-public-health-care movement in the United States. She's testified before Congress, been on Fox TV as well as CNN, and her story is retold on hundreds of right wing blogs. She's now doing a nasty TV ad for Patients United Now, a Republican-led group opposed to Obama's reforms. You can see the ad at www.patientsunitednow.com. The group is spending almost $2 million on it to target politicians in Washington.

For a person living with cancer, the idea that someone's care could be unreasonably delayed is truly scary. It also doesn't reflect the experience I've had or the experiences that have been shared with me by so many other patients. Even CNN interviewed Doug Wright, a more typical patient in Toronto who is receiving very speedy treatment for his cancer.

Still, I found Holmes tale both compelling and troubling. So I decided to check a little further. On the Mayo Clinic's website, Shona Holmes is a success story. But it's somewhat different story than all the headlines might have implied. Holmes' "brain tumour" was actually a Rathke's Cleft Cyst on her pituitary gland. To quote an American source, the John Wayne Cancer Center, "Rathke's Cleft Cysts are not true tumors or neoplasms; instead they are benign cysts."

There's no doubt Holmes had a problem that needed treatment, and she was given appointments with the appropriate specialists in Ontario. She chose not to wait the few months to see them. But it's a far cry from the life-or-death picture portrayed by Holmes on the TV ads or by McConnell in his attacks.

In Senator McConnell's home state of Kentucky, one out of three people under age 65 do not have any health insurance. They don't have to worry about wait times for hip or knee replacement or cancer surgery -- they can't get care. The median household income in Kentucky is $37,186 -- not quite enough for the $97,000 bill at the Mayo Clinic. CNN didn't mention that in its "Reality Check."

As the debate on health care reform heats up the United States, it seems certain that Canada's public health care system will be used, or more accurately misused, in the battle for hearts and minds. For years, Canadians have feared the American health care system; now Americans are being told to fear ours.


More health care letters (http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/671001)

The Toronto Star
July 25, 2009

Shona Holmes is not the only Waterdown woman to have been diagnosed with a brain tumor. But I disagree with her completely. I can't recall a single case of people dying because they have had to wait for a surgery to be scheduled, unless an organ donor couldn't be found. In my experience, priority cases receive attention. I was diagnosed with a brain tumor and had surgery at Hamilton General four weeks ago to remove it. It took place in a reasonable amount of time and with an exceptional quality of care and to my utmost satisfaction. From personal experience, I know our health care system works and if Holmes didn't have a problem with her physician what exactly are her motives for taking part in this media spectacle?



setting the record straight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u8n3pZBd5A)

also, from personal experience, a family member of mine had major surgery a few years back or so. not only did my family member not have to wait for the surgery, but the operation was a great success and he received outstanding care.

[rirv]

My experience of public healthcare: my dad was diagnosed with a brain tumour after collapsing on a run one night. He was operated on within 24 hours. The tumours recurred over the next two years and he was always looked after. Even when the tumours became inoperable and the cancer had manifested itself all over his body he was cared for. No one pulled a plug because he was going to die anyway and it was a waste of money. There was a nurse next to his bed in our house the night he passed.

[travesty]

Saz- I knew some of those stories had to be BS, I just couldn't find anything saying they were. Nothing gets that much exposure down here without being a little shady but I thought I'd throw them up here any way as we always seem to suss out the bullshit on this board.

Anyhow we've gotten a little off topic on this thread. I am not trying to have a pissing match about Canadian Healthcare, in fact I greatly admire it. I don't think it's perfect but it's a great model for a state level single payer system which I would be just fine with. Unfortunately that is far from what is being discussed in Washington. The road they have chosen to drive us down is simply appalling and is not going to fix anything.

As for this thread, I think I have proved my intial point that everything is rationed to a degree regardless of what kind of plan is used so....well, I have nothing further to add.

[QueenAdrock]

no, it doesn't cover everything (ie superficial comestic surgery etc), but it covers your general health. our provincial governments decide what is medically necessary and we are very satisfied with that. and people are not denied life saving surgery because they can't see a doctor or surgeon (american right-wing fear mongering). "healthcare delayed is healthcare denied" is bullshit, because you will eventually get what you need and what your tax dollars pay for. in some instances you may have to wait a little bit, but you will receive what you need. federal government cutbacks to health care funding in the 1990s helped cause this dillema, and waiting lists are one of the top priorities of provinicial governments across the country.

we have public health insurance, but doctors operate privately. doctors bill our provinical governments. we don't have scum-sucking private health insurance firms, who act as a mafia like middle-man, who pay doctors and collect 30% of your money for their profit.

our system isn't as kick ass as france's our italy's, but we love it.


Very true. My parents asked me when I'd be coming back to the States and I told them whenever they got their healthcare shit figured out. I've been under both systems and prefer the Canadian system by far. I've been to the hospital a few times, have been seen in a timely manner, and walked out without paying a dime. I've had longer wait times when I was living in Maryland, mostly because when you go into the ER, they take you into Triage and you spend an hour with them confirming your insurance information and making sure it's still active (calling the insurance company to make sure), and so on. In Canada, they take you into Triage, ask for your ID# and confirm your address and you're done in literally 10 minutes. The red tape I've had to deal with in the US is a pain in the ass and ADDS to wait times.

As for supplemental insurance, it's not necessary. Prescription drugs up here are ridiculously cheap (my birth control costs $5 without insurance, $1 with insurance -- compare to the US at $50 without insurance, $20 with insurance), so you can still afford medication if you don't have a plan. Things like chiropractors and dental are covered under supplemental plans as well, which are non-life threatening things (though if it is, such as mouth infections, those are covered by provincial insurance). The supplemental plans are pretty cheap though, I bought mine for $300 for the year. If I got it through my job, it would have been free. Just an FYI of how that stuff works. (y)

[kaiser soze]

Kid Too Thin? We won't cover the skinny!

http://dscriber.com/denver/547-caught-red-handed-by-media-company-suddenly-insures-thin-baby.html

UPDATE -- As we noted yesterday, 2-year-old, 22-pound Aislin Bates was denied health insurance by UnitedHealthcare's Golden Rule Insurance Co. in Colorado because she was too thin. But now, in a definite trend, the company is reversing its stand after the family contacted news organizations.

No need to get an attorney, call the media! Expose these fuckers!

skinny, fat, white, black, illegal, pre-existing condition - insurance companies know a thing or two about exclusivity.

[Echewta]

Insurance : "A promise of compensation for specific potential future losses in exchange for a periodic payment."