Health Care Reform Passes in the House!

[DroppinScience]

Good step in the right direction and a rebuke of the tea party peoples. Only ONE Republican voted for the bill (Joseph Cao).

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/11/07/health.care/index.html

The 39 Democrats who voted against the bill need to be booted out.

[freetibet]

Yeah, evaporate those 39 obstacles to Progress.

Silly commies, you are so going to get bankrupt by providing "health care" to the useless. And the idea of penalties for not getting insured - Helloooooooo, Orwellll!

[DroppinScience]

So how do they do health care in Poland?

[Schmeltz]

^I don't know, but apparently their mental health sector has let somebody slip through the cracks.

[valvano]

congratulations to the unproductive members of our society...(y)

[Bob]

congratulations to the unproductive members of our society...(y)

what we need is a death panel to sort them out

[travesty]

what we need is a death panel to sort them out

Start with the 220 who voted "yea" on this outrageous bill. This thing stinks of desperation to just pass SOMETHING. This is not good legislation by anyone's standards. Let's hope the Senate can sort out the Bullshit, inject some reason and for God's sake bring the costs down.

[QueenAdrock]

congratulations to the unproductive members of our society...(y)

This bill will also restrict health insurance companies from denying coverage because of pre-existing conditions. Ugh, I can't believe we're actually going to let SICK PEOPLE get coverage! Gross. :rolleyes:

[Schmeltz]

It's a shitty piece of legislation alright (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/091108/us/politics_us_usa_healthcare_abortion). Proof positive that there is nothing liberal or progressive about the Democratic Party. At best they're a bunch of centrist technocrats who can just barely reign in their own right wing. Still better than the GOP though.

[valvano]

This bill will also restrict health insurance companies from denying coverage because of pre-existing conditions. Ugh, I can't believe we're actually going to let SICK PEOPLE get coverage! Gross. :rolleyes:

so you support people , who fail to get fire insurance for whatever reason, getting compensated via fire insurance on their house after its already burned down??

[mikizee]

Yep, because someone's health and someone's possessions are EXACTLY the same thing.

I'm glad I live in a civilised country with national healthcare.

[valvano]

Yep, because someone's health and someone's possessions are EXACTLY the same thing.

I'm glad I live in a civilised country with national healthcare.

i am glad for you too. keeping paying those taxes and enjoying the high unemployment.

[travesty]

Proof positive that there is nothing liberal or progressive about the Democratic Party. At best they're a bunch of centrist technocrats who can just barely reign in their own right wing.

Just like there is nothing conservative about the GOP anymore either. I prefer the label "Spinally Bereft Americans" for most big party politicians.

Kudos to the 39 Dems who saw the absurdity of this bill and had the balls to tell Pelosi to shove it. In the end I'm OK that it passed as it really is just a starting point and you gotta start somewhere. But, I am also glad that it only passsed narrowly as it proves to both sides that this is not something that should be railroaded through but rather methodically and deliberately crafted to benefit ALL Americans, not just those who currently do not have insurance. I hope the Senate has better common sense but what would make me think that?

[Echewta]

Seriously, to those who think that the uninsured are just a bunch of lazy good for nothings are not thinking clearly. Do people abuse the system? YES! From multibillion dollar contracts (Halliburton, air force, Iraq, etc.) to millionaires who use every loop hole that Congress writes for them to people who are having too many children and can't afford them or get fake social security cards to get benefits. All wrong.

But many of the uninsured are being covered by emergency rooms and 911 calls (your taxes already). That costs so much more than if they were to actually get preventative treatment. You can never not provide healthcare to someone, that’s just barbaric and irresponsible to society (spreading illness, etc). Hopefully, the government can figure out a way to do it properly and not continue to "tax" the first responders. Why have so many emergency rooms closed down?

Should I assume seniors and vets are lazy and unproductive too? Go get a job or continue to hold a gun. Why am I paying taxes for them to get coverage yet I still need to pay a co pay to be responsible for a physical?

That college kid who gets paid min. wage as a "sandwich artist" at Subway while going to school or the single mom is a useless lump and shouldn't have health insurance?

I didn't see anything in the House bill that wanted to exterminate Jews or the disabled so I still don't see any Nazi like qualities. I hope that will calm some people’s fears.

[valvano]

Seriously, to those who think that the uninsured are just a bunch of lazy good for nothings are not thinking clearly. Do people abuse the system? YES! From multibillion dollar contracts (Halliburton, air force, Iraq, etc.) to millionaires who use every loop hole that Congress writes for them to people who are having too many children and can't afford them or get fake social security cards to get benefits. All wrong.

But many of the uninsured are being covered by emergency rooms and 911 calls (your taxes already). That costs so much more than if they were to actually get preventative treatment. You can never not provide healthcare to someone, that’s just barbaric and irresponsible to society (spreading illness, etc). Hopefully, the government can figure out a way to do it properly and not continue to "tax" the first responders. Why have so many emergency rooms closed down?

Should I assume seniors and vets are lazy and unproductive too? Go get a job or continue to hold a gun. Why am I paying taxes for them to get coverage yet I still need to pay a co pay to be responsible for a physical?

That college kid who gets paid min. wage as a "sandwich artist" at Subway while going to school or the single mom is a useless lump and shouldn't have health insurance?

I didn't see anything in the House bill that wanted to exterminate Jews or the disabled so I still don't see any Nazi like qualities. I hope that will calm some people’s fears.

you are exactly right. let's raise the taxes of those who have worked hard, taken the risks, and suceeded in life instead of waiting for others to solve their problems. lets punish those who, even though they may be blue collar or low level employees but who happen to have gotten hired on to a company that values health care and provides top notch coverage to those employees, let tax the hell of those benefits to pay for others. yes, lets subsidize those people who fail to take care of themselves and lead unhealthy lifestyles with medical coverage at little or not cost courtesy of the us govt (aka the us tax payers)

yep, lets just do away with personal responsibility....(y)

[Echewta]

Your fantasy 80s Reagan scareworld of generalization is such a sad place to think in.

[valvano]

Your fantasy 80s Reagan scareworld of generalization is such a sad place to think in.

your utopian fantasy world of peace and love and everybody holding hands while big brother govt takes care and makes everybody equal is not only sad, but scary...

[Echewta]

Peace and love and everyone holding hands is scary?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..."

All men are created equal? Unalienable rights including Life? Pursuit of Happiness? Strange, you sound more like an 80s commie all the time Valvano.

[valvano]

that is correct, created equal. what you do with your life after that is up to you...even BO has proven that anybody from any background to get to be one of the most powerful people in the world...unfortunately not everybody is dealt the same deck of cards.

[Burnout18]

It's a shitty piece of legislation alright (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/091108/us/politics_us_usa_healthcare_abortion). Proof positive that there is nothing liberal or progressive about the Democratic Party. At best they're a bunch of centrist technocrats who can just barely reign in their own right wing. Still better than the GOP though.

i am pro choice but i have no problem with no public funding for abortions.... in fact good, the bill is that much easier to pass by the religious right.

unless of course that was just one thing you hate about the bill.

[Echewta]

Unfortunately? That sounds like you have some remorse to those who were dealt the bad deck of cards. So does that mean if you were dealt a bad hand and really cant win, you shouldn't have basic health coverage? They should be thrown in with those who bet poorly? You are basing society on those who are bad and take advantage versus those who are good and actually try. There are good people who have it hard who deserve decent health care. There are tax payers, cities, counties, states, and a country that deserves good health care and its time for some type of positive action and reform so that it happens.

[travesty]

Unfortunately? That sounds like you have some remorse to those who were dealt the bad deck of cards. So does that mean if you were dealt a bad hand and really cant win, you shouldn't have basic health coverage?

What does that mean exactly "dealt a bad deck of cards"? Or "can't win"?
How come descriptors of human lives like that always seem to come from the left? Show me someone who you think has been "dealt a bad hand and can't win" and I'll find someone in America who was in the exact same position who did win without the help of the government. The only way any American "can't win" is when they cede control of their lives to others. Reliance on the government for your personal betterment is the surest way to failure.

[RobMoney$]

Should I assume seniors and vets are lazy and unproductive too? Go get a job or continue to hold a gun. Why am I paying taxes for them to get coverage yet I still need to pay a co pay to be responsible for a physical?

Umm, seniors and vets already have coverage.

That college kid who gets paid min. wage as a "sandwich artist" at Subway while going to school or the single mom is a useless lump and shouldn't have health insurance?

Kids, or adult single moms for that matter, in college can get a plan through the University.

Also, why should the US gov. pay for Subway employees healthcare?
Anybody know what that franchise's profits were?
I don't know, but I'm willing to bet they do pretty well.
Why not simply make legislation that requires SUBWAY (and similar employers ie. Walmart, Home Depot, ect.) to provide healthcare to it's own employees.
A hand up, instead of a hand out!

I'll tell you why that'll never happen. Because the Subways and the Wallmarts would rather spend millions in DC to lobby for a gov. run option than spend two cents to benefit their own employees.

And that's what's wrong with this country. The only employment left for people holding anything less than a Masters in Chemistry or something is the "Sandwich Artist" type of jobs.
The average guy can't support a wife a child as a "Sandwich Artist". Hell, they can't even afford to provide them with healthcare.

Corporate fucking America at it's finest, my friend. (y)

[Echewta]

I agree Rob. Subway (owned by Doctors Associates, though its nothing medical related but still funny) and other corporations that spend millions to not have to insure the uninsured is disgusting. And point was those who work those jobs and can't afford insurance, even if its offered subsidized.

My crack on the vets and seniors is that they are no longer working or serving, so should I assume they are lazy and don't deserve coverage? Of course not.

Is that health care coverage offered by Universities affordable to someone on min. wage or working part time (back to the Subway discussion)? Is the proposed plan by the government for that matter?

As for the bad deck of cards, I was refering to Valvano's post about not being delt the same deck of cards.

Show me someone who you think has been "dealt a bad hand and can't win" and I'll find someone in America who was in the exact same position who did win without the help of the government. African Americans from 1776 to ????

[RobMoney$]

I agree Rob. Subway (owned by Doctors Associates, though its nothing medical related but still funny) and other corporations that spend millions to not have to insure the uninsured is disgusting. And point was those who work those jobs and can't afford insurance, even if its offered subsidized.


The problem is that the manufacturing jobs our grandfathers worked 50 years ago, and supported their families comfortably working them, have disappeared and been replaced with "sandwich artist" jobs.

I just think we're focusing on the wrong type of reform.
Our politicians are more interested in helping corporate america than the working man.

[Burnout18]

whats up with post college kids who can't find a job? Can they stay on thier parents insurance or what? I have no idea, i can't fin the truth on the internet (believe it or not) and it doesn't effect me since im working now but i still want to know.

[RobMoney$]

Serious question.

If you're a post grad and you "can't" find a job, how do you support yourself? How do you live?
How do you buy food, shelter, and clothing?

Are you living at home, living off mommy & daddy?
Are you living off of some sort of gov't dole, like unemployment or welfare?
Are you doing something illegal like selling weed to make money?


Don't bother answering. The answer to all of these is the same.
You can find a job, just perhaps not in the area of your degree, right?
Get off your high horse and lower your standards.
Be a "sandwich artist" until you can find what your looking for.

If I were commissioner of the world, "sandwich artist" would recieve a healthcare benefits package.


edit: I don't really mean YOU, Burnout...just your hypothetical post grad who can't find a job.

[travesty]

African Americans from 1776 to ????

I'll bite....why can't African Americans win in America? Are you really that racist? Do you think their skin color has dealt them a bad hand? I don't get what you are trying to say.

On a side note my little brother worked at Subway many years ago. At that particular store (I don't know if it was all of them) they only hired people part time, like 20 hours a week so they didn't have to offer benefits. As for manufacturing jobs

[Schmeltz]

i am pro choice but i have no problem with no public funding for abortions.... in fact good, the bill is that much easier to pass by the religious right.

unless of course that was just one thing you hate about the bill.

There are many, many problems with the bill, and indeed with Obama's entire approach to this health care issue. I just thought that particular amendment was worth commenting on for what it reveals about the Dems. But I'm curious - if you're pro-choice, why would you support cutting off funding for, and therefore access to, abortions? It's no good to pass legislation that's had the guts cut out of it by ideologues and fanatics.

that is correct, created equal. what you do with your life after that is up to you... ...unfortunately not everybody is dealt the same deck of cards.

You're not even worth laughing at, let alone responding to, but I think this post of yours shows us all just how inconsistent, inadequate, and clumsy your thinking is. Everyone's equal, but not everyone is equal. Thanks for that blinding flash of intellectual illumination.

I am also glad that it only passsed narrowly as it proves to both sides that this is not something that should be railroaded through but rather methodically and deliberately crafted to benefit ALL Americans, not just those who currently do not have insurance.

I like this point. One of the many things that has clouded this health care debate is the focus on people who don't have insurance, and the inflation of their (admittedly tragic and senseless) circumstances as a selling point for weak legislation. It devolves the discussion into histrionics about victimhood and responsibility, and in the end no progress is made for either the common good or the underprivileged. Like you said, at least this is a starting point - I just hope that the entire issue can move forward more productively from here.

I'll bite....why can't African Americans win in America? Are you really that racist? Do you think their skin color has dealt them a bad hand?

For the best part of half a millenium the entire Western world was convinced that black skin was a bad hand. The people who wrote that "all men are created equal" were slave owners at the top of a trading triangle with the sale of Africans as one of its cornerstones. And if you think that there are no lingering effects or lasting consequences from all of this history... well, I don't like to descend to the level of valvano's inane platitudes about the real world, but in the real world history does matter.

[Burnout18]

Serious question.

If you're a post grad and you "can't" find a job, how do you support yourself? How do you live?
How do you buy food, shelter, and clothing?

Are you living at home, living off mommy & daddy?
Are you living off of some sort of gov't dole, like unemployment or welfare?
Are you doing something illegal like selling weed to make money?


Don't bother answering. The answer to all of these is the same.
You can find a job, just perhaps not in the area of your degree, right?
Get off your high horse and lower your standards.
Be a "sandwich artist" until you can find what your looking for.

If I were commissioner of the world, "sandwich artist" would recieve a healthcare benefits package.


edit: I don't really mean YOU, Burnout...just your hypothetical post grad who can't find a job.

Most of my friends who don't have jobs just live at home like super high school kids.... off thier parents and shit. One kid is, no joke, a sandwhich artist at a deli. Another friend of mine who wasnt so lucky to mooch, joined the army and he is doing fine.

but actually I completely agree with you and thats what i did, i lowered my standards for a job and took whatever i could get. I have no complaints, and at least its basic bookeeping work so its somewhat related to my degree.

[travesty]

My point is simply that even slavery did not keep ALL African Americans down. In fact the likes of Booker T. Washington and even Martin Luther King Jr. would have to agree that their greatness was fueld by oppression. Look, every race, color and creed has been put upon at some point in history. I truly believe the only thing holding people back in America today is themselves. We live in an amazing, amazing time and people should appreciate that more.

[Burnout18]

But I'm curious - if you're pro-choice, why would you support cutting off funding for, and therefore access to, abortions? It's no good to pass legislation that's had the guts cut out of it by ideologues and fanatics.




I am personally against abortion, i would never want my girl to get one. However i also don't belief my personal views should effect what you, or what anyone else wants to do. Like if i had to vote id keep it legal. I guess thats why i say i am politically pro-choice. hypocritical? sure, maybe. But one thing that disgusts me is self righteous bastards. I don't smoke pot, but i dont stop people at parties who want to. In a way, same thing here.

And i know i said something about passing it by the religious right, well i guess to be honest that was a pussy way to say pass it by me. Simple answer is i would rather have my tax dollars going towards necessary health crises, than something that is optional. Id rather pay for crutches for a kid then an abortion because someone was irresponsible. Keep it legal and pay for it yourself.

[Echewta]

I'll bite....why can't African Americans win in America? Are you really that racist? Do you think their skin color has dealt them a bad hand? I don't get what you are trying to say.


I'm not racist at all. Not sure why you would go there. What type of racist uses the term African Americans?

My point was that it took the government to step in for those that were delt a bad hand, which was their skin color. I don't think that way, but like Schmeltz said, most of the Western world did for a long time. National Guard troops to protect children going to school just because of their skin color? Government to force car companies to have seatbelts? EPA to protect us from poison water? "Big" government has had to force many good ideas for the overall good. Too me, its just as silly not to some how figure out how everyone can have resonable healthcare, and I certainly don't mind my tax dollars going to make that a reality since the private sector can't seem to figure it out.

I would assume that Martin Luther King would have gladly given up his greatness in exchange for there not to have been any oppresion. And yes, we live in an amazing time with more opportunities then ever before. Thank goodness for the 60s and early 70s.

[Echewta]

And i know i said something about passing it by the religious right, well i guess to be honest that was a pussy way to say pass it by me. Simple answer is i would rather have my tax dollars going towards necessary health crises, than something that is optional. Id rather pay for crutches for a kid then an abortion because someone was irresponsible. Keep it legal and pay for it yourself.

I'd rather see my tax money going to realistic sexual education.

[QueenAdrock]

i am glad for you too. keeping paying those taxes and enjoying the high unemployment.

My taxes here are the same as the States. And Edmonton's unemployment is only at 4%, comparable to 10% in Washington, DC....

The difference is, the Canadian government is able to pay for universal health care because it hasn't paid billions of dollars to Iraq. They have money to help people, which is where some of the bloated defense funding should go in the US, too.

But that's just lil' ole liberal me. Believing that it's better to help people rather than to kill them. I know, I'm such a pussy. :rolleyes:

[RobMoney$]

How smug.


All the while completely refusing to assign any of the blame for the unemployment numbers and the continued war in Iraq that you're bitching about to the guy in your own avatar.

[QueenAdrock]

How smug.


All the while completely refusing to assign any of the blame for the unemployment numbers and the continued war in Iraq that you're bitching about to the guy in your own avatar.

That's news to me. Please, point out where I refuse to assign any blame to Obama. I'd love to see it, Robby.

And "how smug"? Give me a break. One person is trying to say that countries with universal health care have crappy taxes and high unemployment, when that's a broad generalization that doesn't apply all the time.

I'm sure you won't care about those points though, because you're obsessed with some sort of personal vendetta against me.

[saz]

exactly, and it's getting a little disturbing.

[RobMoney$]

yet you're the one making personal comments and using my first name like you know me.
I've said nothing personal to you. Look at your post.

My taxes here are the same as the States. And Edmonton's unemployment is only at 4%, comparable to 10% in Washington, DC....

The difference is, the Canadian government is able to pay for universal health care because it hasn't paid billions of dollars to Iraq. They have money to help people, which is where some of the bloated defense funding should go in the US, too.

But that's just lil' ole liberal me. Believing that it's better to help people rather than to kill them. I know, I'm such a pussy. :rolleyes:

SMUG
–adjective, smug⋅ger, smug⋅gest.
1.contentedly confident of one's ability, superiority, or correctness; complacent.
2.trim; spruce; smooth; sleek.



Your post was smug. It's your problem if you take it personal.
It's also really great that your liberal cheering section reinforces your position of smugness and your own paranoid martyr complex.

BTW, don't flatter yourself by thinking that I would spend more than two seconds of my day concerned with you. :)

[QueenAdrock]

yet you're the one making personal comments and using my first name like you know me.
I've said nothing personal to you. Look at your post.



SMUG
–adjective, smug⋅ger, smug⋅gest.
1.contentedly confident of one's ability, superiority, or correctness; complacent.
2.trim; spruce; smooth; sleek.



Your post was smug. It's your problem if you take it personal.
It's also really great that your liberal cheering section reinforces your position of smugness and your own paranoid martyr complex.

BTW, don't flatter yourself by thinking that I would spend more than two seconds of my day concerned with you. :)

Ah, okay. So you meant that I was confident in my correctness, and am smooth and sleek. That is true. Thanks for explaining! (y)

PS, do you see the irony in you saying that you're not concerned with me, yet you're the one to directly reply to a comment not even directed at you, then make this post in response (complete with looking up a dictionary definition and everything), and then EDIT it 6 minutes later, and then say you're not spending more than "two seconds" concerned with me?

How about if you AREN'T concerned with me, you don't reply? Otherwise, you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth. :rolleyes:

[RobMoney$]

Nah.
I'll continue to reply to whatever I want, Ms. Moderator of the MB.

[QueenAdrock]

Sure. Just don't say you don't spend more than 2 seconds a day concerned with me, because you'd be lying.

[RobMoney$]

Yeah.
And the world really does revolve around YOU.

[QueenAdrock]

You certainly act like it does.

[freetibet]

So how do they do health care in Poland?

It's communist public and sucks badly and "badlier" all the time. And you're so happy about going in the same direction.

---
And the argument about me being a mental patient who got away - that was really brilliant. Goebells brilliant. Oh wait, that reminds me that the pulic health care system is as socialist as the German system in the 1930s:)

[freetibet]

My point is simply that even slavery did not keep ALL African Americans down. In fact the likes of Booker T. Washington and even Martin Luther King Jr. would have to agree that their greatness was fueld by oppression. Look, every race, color and creed has been put upon at some point in history. I truly believe the only thing holding people back in America today is themselves. We live in an amazing, amazing time and people should appreciate that more.

Dunno what slavery has to do with public health care, but hey - slavery is the only political system (so to say) in which everybody is employed. Socialism with its job agencies and trillion dollar programs for fighting unemployment (instead of allowing the Free Market to do it itself) - is heading towards slavery. Let me remind you of the most famous socialists of all times, A. Hitler and J. Stalin and their konzentration lagers. Change, we believe in!!;]

Once, again: public health care sucks and helps the unproductive who steal from the results of productive people's hard work. Howgh.

[mikizee]

i am glad for you too. keeping paying those taxes and enjoying the high unemployment.

Are you fucking serious dude?

Do you know where I live? Have you done research?

Australia is one of the few western economies that has completely avoided recession. We have a comparably very low unemployment rate.

And our taxes aren't higher than any other western country.

Honestly, I'd be happy to take on board any opinions or viewpoints you had, if only you weren't a complete and utter fucking joke. JESUS.

read this (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/australia-avoids-recession-as-gdp-grows-in-first-quarter/story-0-1225720564451)

and this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate)

and this, dickbrain. (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/World-Economy/Unemployment-Rates.aspx)

[mikizee]

Oh and valvano, heres a couple of factsheets, so next time you want to rebut, you have at least an *inkling* of background to your argument.

You fucking idiot. FUCK.

http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/healthcare.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Australia

[travesty]

An American's conversation with the Wiki concerning Aussie Healthcare.

Australia has "universal Healthcare" right?
Health Services in Australia are universal. The Federal Government pays a large percentage of the cost of services in public hospitals.
"A large percentage"? Can you clarify?
This percentage is calculated on:
1. Whether the Government subsidizes this service (based on the Medicare Benefits Schedule. Typically, 100% of in-hospital costs, and 75-85% of General Practitioner and specialist services are covered.
2. Whether the Patient is a Concession or Receives other Benefits[2]
3. Whether the Patient has crossed the threshold for further subsidised service (based on total health expenditure for the year)[2]
"Threshold"? That certainly rings of "rationing" and potentially....dare I say... death panels? Ohhh I said it.
Well if the government only pays a percentage, who pays the rest?
the patient pays the remainder out of pocket,
Huh. Any way to minimize that risk or exposure?
Individuals can choose to take out Private Health Insurance to cover these costs, with either a plan that covers just selected services, to a full coverage plan.
I like choices!
Individuals are encouraged to purchase private health services. The Government achieves this through a Surcharge in tax at which an individuals above a set income level are penalised for not taking out private health insurance, and a means-tested rebate.
So really I can only choose what type of additional insurance I have, not really whether I want it all or I will be penalized. Well, I don't like that choice.
Anyway, tell me more about this private insurance market you have.
The private health system in Australia operates on a "community rating" basis, whereby premiums do not vary solely because of a person's previous medical history, current state of health, or (generally speaking) their age (but see Lifetime Health Cover below).
This sounds great. We're looking to do put reforms like this in place with the private insurance companies in America.
Balancing this are waiting periods, in particular for pre-existing conditions (usually referred to within the industry as PEA, which stands for "pre-existing ailment").
What? We're real progressive here in America so we won't tolerate any limitations on Pre-X. Why would you do that to people?
The benefits paid out for these conditions would create pressure on premiums for all the fund's members, causing some to drop their membership, which would lead to further rises, and a vicious cycle would ensue
Oh!! So what your saying is that blanket acceptance of pre-existing conditions causes premiums to rise significantly. Consequently the number of individuals able to pay the premiums shrinks menaning that less people are insured than when we started? There must be someway to keep that from happening right?
If a person has not taken out private hospital cover by the 1st July after their 30th birthday, then when (and if) they do so after this time, their premiums must include a loading of 2% per annum. Thus, a person taking out private cover for the first time at age 40 will pay a 20 per cent loading. The loading continues for 10 years.
Brilliant! If people don't want to pay the higher premiums, penalize them. That is pure evil genius.

(n)





A "Low Income Earner" card?- So you have ID to prove you are poor? How humiliating. Does it get you to the front of the line for surplus Kangaroo road kill meat?

[Echewta]

Slavery = Employement haha, thats rich. I'm sure the slaves of this country were given awesome benefits and fine healthcare.

[saz]

Once, again: public health care sucks and helps the unproductive who steal from the results of productive people's hard work. Howgh.



Healthcare system wastes up to $800 billion a year

Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:10pm EDT
By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. healthcare system is just as wasteful as President Barack Obama says it is, and proposed reforms could be paid for by fixing some of the most obvious inefficiencies, preventing mistakes and fighting fraud, according to a Thomson Reuters report released on Monday.

The U.S. healthcare system wastes between $505 billion and $850 billion every year, the report from Robert Kelley, vice president of healthcare analytics at Thomson Reuters, found.

"America's healthcare system is indeed hemorrhaging billions of dollars, and the opportunities to slow the fiscal bleeding are substantial," the report reads.

"The bad news is that an estimated $700 billion is wasted annually. That's one-third of the nation's healthcare bill," Kelley said in a statement.

"The good news is that by attacking waste we can reduce healthcare costs without adversely affecting the quality of care or access to care."

One example -- a paper-based system that discourages sharing of medical records accounts for 6 percent of annual overspending.

"It is waste when caregivers duplicate tests because results recorded in a patient's record with one provider are not available to another or when medical staff provides inappropriate treatment because relevant history of previous treatment cannot be accessed," the report reads.

Some other findings in the report from Thomson Reuters, the parent company of Reuters:

• Unnecessary care such as the overuse of antibiotics and lab tests to protect against malpractice exposure makes up 37 percent of healthcare waste or $200 to $300 billion a year.

• Fraud makes up 22 percent of healthcare waste, or up to $200 billion a year in fraudulent Medicare claims, kickbacks for referrals for unnecessary services and other scams.

• Administrative inefficiency and redundant paperwork account for 18 percent of healthcare waste.

• Medical mistakes account for $50 billion to $100 billion in unnecessary spending each year, or 11 percent of the total.

• Preventable conditions such as uncontrolled diabetes cost $30 billion to $50 billion a year.

"The average U.S. hospital spends one-quarter of its budget on billing and administration, nearly twice the average in Canada," reads the report, citing dozens of other research papers.

"American physicians spend nearly eight hours per week on paperwork and employ 1.66 clerical workers per doctor, far more than in Canada," it says, quoting a 2003 New England Journal of Medicine paper by Harvard University researcher Dr. Steffie Woolhandler.

Yet primary care doctors are lacking, forcing wasteful use of emergency rooms, for instance, the report reads.

All this could help explain why Americans spend more per capita and the highest percentage of GDP on healthcare than any other OECD country, yet has an unhealthier population with more diabetes, obesity and heart disease and higher rates of neonatal deaths than other developed nations.

Democratic Senator Charles Schumer said on Sunday that Senate Democratic leaders are close to securing enough votes to pass legislation to start reform of the country's $2.5 trillion healthcare system.

.

[travesty]

Slaves were probably the only people in the history of this country to receive some form of basic, universal healthcare. It's deplorable but there are some parallels to be drawn from that appalling cost of medicine vs. productive worth of the person system to the constraints and rationing of any modern universal system. The most striking being that someone else is determining those constraints for you and assigning the level of care you can receive.

[travesty]

Saz your article is great and on point. My question has always been if there is so much fixable waste in healthcare, why can't we reduce that waste and just lower costs by the one-third mentioned? The House Bill plan that fixing the waste will pay for the cost of the new bill is insane. Fixing the waste just to use that money to pay for another government run program isn't really eliminating the waste. It's just moving it to another inefficient operation. That makes no sense to me and does nothing to lower the cost of care or make it more affordable to all Americans.

[Bob]

Oh wait, that reminds me that the pulic health care system is as socialist as the German system in the 1930s:)

remind me, how did that system work?

[kaiser soze]

I wish I knew too, please do tell freetibet

we'll wait while you scour the internet for answers

[yeahwho]

Slaves were probably the only people in the history of this country to receive some form of basic, universal healthcare. It's deplorable but there are some parallels to be drawn from that appalling cost of medicine vs. productive worth of the person system to the constraints and rationing of any modern universal system. The most striking being that someone else is determining those constraints for you and assigning the level of care you can receive.

So now it's almost 2010 and things have changed dramatically here on the planet earth since the United States has abolished slavery, especially medicine. I'm still not too sure how the idea of Universal Health Care would limit anyone's health options more than the current system limits 40 to 50 million U.S. citizens to 0 health insurance. I mean really how equitable is this current system?

Before slavery was abolished it didn't matter if you had health insurance, being sick wasn't a corporate monopoly, if you were the POTUS or the slave you went to a quack who would give you an Elixir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elixir) and you would be on your way... usually stoned. Just saying health care was very cheap before the mid 20th century.

Saz your article is great and on point. My question has always been if there is so much fixable waste in healthcare, why can't we reduce that waste and just lower costs by the one-third mentioned? The House Bill plan that fixing the waste will pay for the cost of the new bill is insane. Fixing the waste just to use that money to pay for another government run program isn't really eliminating the waste. It's just moving it to another inefficient operation. That makes no sense to me and does nothing to lower the cost of care or make it more affordable to all Americans.

The plan just keeps getting worse the longer it drags on because of obvious reasons, but it has passed a gigantic hurdle by making it through the House and to be quite honest I haven't seen yet one clear explanation of the final bill.

I am happy though that at least we've decided as a country to take care of each other. If we can't do that we're going to fail anyway.

[Documad]

Before slavery was abolished it didn't matter if you had health insurance, being sick wasn't a corporate monopoly, if you were the POTUS or the slave you went to a quack who would give you an Elixir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elixir) and you would be on your way... usually stoned. Just saying health care was very cheap before the mid 20th century.
There was something on NPR about that. There was no need for medical insurance of any kind until they started finding surgeries or medicines that worked. That's a fairly recent phenomenon. If you got cancer in 1865, you simply threw in the towel. People weren't on prescription medications for half their lives like they are now. When did that start? After WWII? After Vietnam?

Medical insurance came about when medicine started finding cures. Employer-provided medical insurance surged when the government encouraged it by giving substantial tax breaks to businesses. Medical insurance in the US was government sponsored from the get go.

[travesty]

I'm still not too sure how the idea of Universal Health Care would limit anyone's health options more than the current system limits 40 to 50 million U.S. citizens to 0 health insurance. .

I think that's more than a tad misleading and I hate people throwing that number out. Let's drill that number down a bit...

There are roughly 50 million people uninsured in the US right now ( I rounded up to be conservative given the unemployment rate)

According to the National Coalition on Healthcare (http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml)only 85% of those people are native or naturalized citizens. We're not going to cover illegal aliens are we Mr. President?
So we're down to 42.5 million

According to the Lib's own Kaiser Family Foundation (http://facts.kff.org/chart.aspx?ch=910) findings of reasons why Americans are uninsured you'll find that only 37% fall into categories related to lack of access like, lost Job, employer doesn't offer it, not eligible for employer plan and refused due to health, age etc. That means that there is really only about 15.725 million people who actually CAN'T get insurance even if they wanted it, or roughly 4.5% of the population.
Also, according to the CBO (http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=5152&type=0) 45% of those who have lost their insurance will replace it within four months. Only 30% of uninsure Americans will go an entire year without insurance.
Those are the facts, you can throw around these magic numbers of 50 million people all you want but they are sensationlist misinformation at best and outright lies at worst..

If we would focus on reducing costs for EVERYONE then the vast majority of those uninsured will jump on board.

[yeahwho]

Also, according to the CBO (http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=5152&type=0) 45% of those who have lost their insurance will replace it within four months. Only 30% of uninsure Americans will go an entire year without insurance.
Those are the facts, you can throw around these magic numbers of 50 million people all you want but they are sensationlist misinformation at best and outright lies at worst..



At any given moment you may find yourself without insurance for a period of time, so please do not get sick or develop a medical condition during this time because if you do get sick while un-insured and then try to get insurance while suffering from a chronic or any continuing illness above the amount you pay for your premium,

you'll be denied under the current status quo.

Convince all of the media to not throw out those numbers. I'm not quoting your statistics. The NCHC says 48 million in 2008, 48 million Americans.

[travesty]

You are absolutely right according to the NCHC, at any given time there are 48 million people in America without health insurance. That is not the same as 48 million Americans.

Your earlier comment was that the current system limits 40 to 50 million U.S. citizens to 0 health insurance
Which is patently untrue as I have proven. A large portion of uninsured Americans are so due to choice not because they don't have access. Like I said, use whatever numbers you want while you chug latte's with your liberal Seattle buddies but if you speak out in public you need to be truthful and you'll have to use the facts.

[yeahwho]

People are Americans too, I'm quoting the NHCH (http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml) which actually happens to say Americans. It doesn't say "in America" it says Americans.

Low Balling that number isn't going to make the uninsured more healthy or less real.

The low ball argument makes less sense than the high ball argument, since now we have established absolutely 10's of millions of Americans have no health insurance. That number is growing and the projections are it will be 66 million by 2019 (or if you low ball 50 million).

If it turns out less than 40-50 million people are uninsured and those illegals do not get insurance, this reform will be less expensive. It will be an easier pill to swallow.

Also I haven't the time or the inclination to go through your math today, but having a rotating number of uninsured that progressively gets larger year after year is not technically good math or low balling, it's denying coverage anyway you look at it.

[travesty]

People are Americans too
C'mon, that's absurd. Not all people are Americans and, in fact, some would find that highly offensive.

I'm quoting the NHCH (http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml) which actually happens to say Americans. It doesn't say "in America" it says Americans.
Yes the NCNC does throw the term American around but in it's analysis it plainly makes the differentiation by stating;
The large majority of the uninsured (85 percent) are native or naturalized citizens.

Once again you are completely ignoring what I am saying to you and instead are desperately grasping at some inane disconnect between what you said and what you want to believe. I have agreed all along that yes there about 50 million uninsured in the US, more every day. If you had made that statement you have been correct. But you didn't; what you said was....sigh...again....
the current system limits 40 to 50 million U.S. citizens to 0 health insurance
Which is not true and is what I have proven. Only about a third of that number is actually "limited by the system" to 0 health insurance. The rest do have access to insurance and choose not to use it. That is not the "system limiting them to 0 health insurance". That is the individual choosing to have 0 health insurance. I realize that many, many of them are choosing between other basic necessities but that starts a whole other debate.

Also I haven't the time or the inclination to go through your math today,
I know you won't look at the math, I put it here more for others than you. Actually analyzing the facts would cause your flippant liberal paradigm to explode and I know that is scary to think about in Seattle.

but having a rotating number of uninsured that progressively gets larger year after year is not technically good math or low balling, it's denying coverage anyway you look at it.
Yes having more and more people uinsured needs to be addressed. I think that's what we are all working on here, though the rising number is far more tied to the economy that healthcare industry problems. Finding a solution for people who can not afford it is far different from finding a solution for people who have been denied coverage. My point has always been that the far more of uninsured fall in the former category than the latter. Both need to be addressed but lumping everyone into one category or the other is not going to yeild an adequate solution for all.

[yeahwho]

My only reply to you Travesty is this, I am living in the Seattle area and your numbers are "your numbers".

The problem is it drives you to the point of insults whenever I discuss healthcare with you. I don't give a shit what you think, I'm going by statistical evidence that shows multiple millions of US citizens w/o healthcare insurance, plus on top of that they are broke.

If your so convinced with your numbers quote me any politician that agrees with your math.

[travesty]

No you are living in yeahwho-land where you choose to ignore the facts as I have already laid them out for you. I have cited my facts from the National Coalition on Health Care (NCHC) and the Kaiser Family Foundation both liberal leaning organizations. If you want me to cite the Heritage Foundation, Lewin Group or Cato Institute the numbers slide more in my favor. As with anything on this board, citing any organization that is the least bit conservative brings cries of foul play so I'm using numbers from your side of the aisle for fuck's sake. You have such a closed mind you can't even be bothered with the data. I guess you won't believe anything but that which is not spouted straight from Messiah Obama's all knowing and ever trustworthy mouth so here you go......
Here (http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN1040276120090910)
or Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXHMfqCOTY8)

What drives me to insult you is my frustration with your incoherent and irrational manner of debate. I don't know why I keep trying with you. You are completely bereft of reason and rationality. It's like trying to reason with a chimp on LSD. I wouldn't have to keep calling you out on shit like this if you'd quit regurgitating liberal misinformation and talking points without ever questioning them. You're like a liberal valvano. I know so many mindless sheeple like you on both sides of the spectrum and it makes me ill to see people being led through life by the talking heads. You're no different than the mouth breathing Beck and Limbaugh fans you despise so much.

[yeahwho]

"There are now more than 30 million American citizens who cannot get coverage," is exactly what Obama said.

Is that insane or what? I mean now we're coming to a number of those who go without health insurance in America who are United States citizens.

What do you propose we do?

Is this acceptable?

What offends you more, Universal Health Care, Illegal Aliens or War?

[travesty]

You need help bro, serious, serious help.

[yeahwho]

I need help? You've taken a number of 40-50 million and reduced it down to below 16 million. I really do not need any help, I have health insurance and a great job.

Here is a link to the White House Briefing of 9/10/2009 (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Briefing-by-White-House-Press-Secretary-Robert-Gibbs-9/10/09);

excerpted Press Secretary Robert Gibbs daily briefing,

Q Right. So why did the President limit it to 36 million -- or 30 million citizens? Was this a way to draw a distinction between American citizens and those who are illegal immigrants and the subject of contention, or what --
MR. GIBBS: Obviously this has been a point of some contention during the speech, as I recall.
Q Right. So --
MR. GIBBS: The legislation -- the proposal that the President outlined covers American citizens. I think he was clear for almost everyone that the legislation does not cover -- his plan would not cover illegal immigrants. If you subtract a rough estimate from that 46.3 million, you get a number that's somewhat unknown but in the 30s that represents American citizens, as the President pointed out. I would go one step further to point out that last night was not the first time that the President has talked about the fact that illegal immigrants aren't covered -- or would not be covered as part of his plan. He said that most recently in the interview -- radio interview that was done here, and said that also in the campaign in 2008.
Q So in effect he's saying that a quarter or more of the people who currently lack insurance will still lack insurance once the plan is passed, is that correct?
MR. GIBBS: Well, again, I don't know --
Q -- many uninsured people in this country presumably driving up health care costs. Is that correct?
MR. GIBBS: Well, I think the President would look at -- because he's -- would look at how many American citizens are covered under our proposal, rather than looking at different numbers that don't include American citizens.
Q What I'm asking, though, is it then his vision that there could still be at the end of the day as many as, say, 16 million people living in this country without health insurance who --
MR. GIBBS: Again, I don't think it's -- the President outlined a plan that doesn't cover illegal immigrants. The number that the President seeks to cover is to provide universal access to coverage for American citizens. I think you heard the President even discuss last night that there are going to be some American citizens who decide they don't want or don't need health insurance that are also going to be living here.

Thirty Million Uninsured (http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/thirty-million-uninsured/)

Obama changes talking points on uninsured (http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN1040276120090910)

I think this number is going to suffice. I'll keep it at 30 million. I have an extremely hard tome believing we have 17 million illegals living here, but I'll go with that number of 30 million...

[travesty]

What a shocker! Of course you will believe it now that you find out Obama said it. You wouldn't believe that facts I told you but as soon as I show you where Obama said it then you think it must be true, right? For fuck's sake when Obama says there are 17 million illegals in the uninsured pool you find that "exteremely hard to believe" but you are willing to go with it because it came from the mouth of the Messiah. But when I show you data from the NCHC saying there are only, a much more believeable, 7.2 million illegals (the 15% of uninsured) you refuse to consider that information. You are the epitome of a mindless Obamaton. Just sit back and let him do all the thinking for you sir... I hope he guides your life well.

[yeahwho]

What a shocker! Of course you will believe it now that you find out Obama said it. You wouldn't believe that facts I told you but as soon as I show you where Obama said it then you think it must be true, right? For fuck's sake when Obama says there are 17 million illegals in the uninsured pool you find that "exteremely hard to believe" but you are willing to go with it because it came from the mouth of the Messiah. But when I show you data from the NCHC saying there are only, a much more believeable, 7.2 million illegals (the 15% of uninsured) you refuse to consider that information. You are the epitome of a mindless Obamaton. Just sit back and let him do all the thinking for you sir... I hope he guides your life well.

The thing here is this, I'm not going to try and convince you of anything about my politics other than I will tell you this, Barack Obama has a much better grasp on reality than you.

I'm completely amazed at how much of a waste of time this conversation is, I haven't the slightest clue why you do not just supply the link at the beginning and avoid all the insults. I'm completely happy.

When I said I didn't have the time or inclination, it wasn't a personal assault on you, I have work to do and meetings to go to. I'm busy and really wish you would post the information. When I check back in I'm being call a monkey on LSD and a ultra liberal Seattle dude who worships Obama. Obama is far from liberal.

[travesty]

Less than one page back from this exact post (i.e. the beginning of this conversation) are all of the links to all of the data I have cited to this point. You chose to ignore them. If you want to go back and read them now feel free.

[yeahwho]

Less than one page back from this exact post (i.e. the beginning of this conversation) are all of the links to all of the data I have cited to this point. You chose to ignore them. If you want to go back and read them now feel free.

I did,

According to the Lib's own Kaiser Family Foundation findings of reasons why Americans are uninsured you'll find that only 37% fall into categories related to lack of access like, lost Job, employer doesn't offer it, not eligible for employer plan and refused due to health, age etc. That means that there is really only about 15.725 million people who actually CAN'T get insurance even if they wanted it, or roughly 4.5% of the population.
Also, according to the CBO 45% of those who have lost their insurance will replace it within four months. Only 30% of uninsure Americans will go an entire year without insurance.
Those are the facts, you can throw around these magic numbers of 50 million people all you want but they are sensationlist misinformation at best and outright lies at worst..

15.725 million is not 30 million. It is a low ball number. Everything after "Also" is a ponzi sheme of math, a rotating number of uninsured which statistically has grown yearly for the past two decades. A larger number each year. Over the last decade, employer-sponsored health insurance premiums have increased 131 percent. (http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml)

15.725 million is not correct.

30 million is much closer to being honest, especially when taking into account the US unemployment is currently at the highest rate in 26 years.

I have no qualms trying to get this mess fixed by the government, like I said before if we cannot take care of our own we will not survive anyway. We don't even give a shit about our jobs, we've shipped them to the lowest bidder. Lets try and start taking care of each other.

[travesty]

I realize that CAN'T has become a quite a nebulous word in this debate and likely we are looking at it differently. To me "can't" means can not. To me that is much different from will not, would, not or do not. To me "can't implies that something is absolutely impossible. To me can't get insurance is much different than can't afford insurance.

I guess it's symantics but as I stated before, and my main point in all this, is that the large majority of the uninsured CAN get insurance. They have access to it through some means. They either choose not to pay for it or they can't afford it. That's where the 15 million number came from. There are really only about 15 million who could not get insurance even if they could afford it. The rest of the 40 million simply can not afford it. As I said before both reasons for being uninsured require different solutions.

Yes wee need to take better care of each other.

[Echewta]

In the spirit of everyone taking better care of each other, I recommend that you all live a healthier life style. More fruits and veggies. Less video games and going outside to play.

[travesty]

If more people would tazke that advice we wouldn't have a healthcare issue.

[RobMoney$]

In this video Pelosi is asked if she advocates jailing those who refuse to purchase health insurance. She dodges the question twice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUkzV8h3Wp0&feature=player_embedded

Does this concern anyone else?

[yeahwho]

Not really, there is universal health care in prison. It's a vicious cycle (http://www.amazon.com/Prison-Nation-Warehousing-Americas-Poor/dp/0415935385)that says volumes about our current system of health care.

[RobMoney$]

Jail time would most likely cost tax payers more than the insurance would.

Her answer about it being unfair to make insured pay for the uninsured would lead me to believe that the answer is YES, there will be fines or jail for those that do not buy insurance.

I would also presume based upon that logic that she also supports jail time for those who live off the system without paying into it, since that is unfair.
Like illegals...

It also alarming that she said if you are poor and decide not to buy insurance, the government will provide it for you.
If you are middle class or above and opt not to buy insurance, fines and jail time are in your future.


I'm sorry, but this piece of legislation is only getting crappier the more I learn about it.

[travesty]

Make no doubt, it's a steamy pile of fecal matter being crammed down the collective American throat. Need an Altoid?

[yeahwho]

I have so many reservations about so many things happening in the United States of America. Now we actually having somebody trying to fix a problem that has been harming everybody, even those of us who have insurance.

Eventually if you scam the system you are eligible for jail. This isn't a free ride. Just as your car isn't a free ride. Unlike your vehicle your health, our health and the health of your family is and has always been your responsibility.

Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance? (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/11/interview-with-the-president-jail-time-for-those-without-health-care-insurance.html) 11/9/09

“I think the general broad principle is simply that people who are paying for their health insurance aren't subsidizing folks who simply choose not to until they get sick and then suddenly they expect free health insurance. That's -- that's basic concept of responsibility that I think most Americans abide by,” Mr. Obama said, “penalties are appropriate for people who try to free ride the system and force others to pay for their health insurance.”

[RobMoney$]

I have so many reservations about so many things happening in the United States of America. Now we actually having somebody trying to fix a problem that has been harming everybody, even those of us who have insurance.

Eventually if you scam the system you are eligible for jail. This isn't a free ride. Just as your car isn't a free ride. Unlike your vehicle your health, our health and the health of your family is and has always been your responsibility.

Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance? (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/11/interview-with-the-president-jail-time-for-those-without-health-care-insurance.html) 11/9/09

“I think the general broad principle is simply that people who are paying for their health insurance aren't subsidizing folks who simply choose not to until they get sick and then suddenly they expect free health insurance. That's -- that's basic concept of responsibility that I think most Americans abide by,” Mr. Obama said, “penalties are appropriate for people who try to free ride the system and force others to pay for their health insurance.”


Unlike a vehicle, I can take the bus, taxi, bicycle, skateboard, or just plain walk if I can't afford, or chose not to buy insurance for my car, Mr. Obama.

[yeahwho]

Unlike a vehicle, I can take the bus, taxi, bicycle, skateboard, or just plain walk if I can't afford, or chose not to buy insurance for my car, Mr. Obama.

You have health while your alive, the costs for health care have risen over 100% in the past 10 years. It is completely out of line with inflation and millions of our fellow citizens cannot get health insurance, which puts the burden on all of us today.

I'm paying for uninsured motorists today as I have for several years. It's part of my policy and it's law.

[RobMoney$]

you're paying for uninsured motorists.

"Motorists" being the key word in that.
You aren't paying for anyone who isn't a motorist.
You have a choice not to be.

The government also does not offer to pay for your auto insurance if your income is too low, while the threat of fines and jail are present for those who'se incomes are higher.
I don't see how that's even legal.

[yeahwho]

you're paying for uninsured motorists.

"Motorists" being the key word in that.
You aren't paying for anyone who isn't a motorist.
You have a choice not to be.

So you feel as if you have a right to not insure yourself (and your family if the case may be) under the Constitution and you want to defend that?

I'm already subsidizing that attitude with my current health insurance and local/federal taxes.

[RobMoney$]

My point is, I can chose not to own a car, and therefore not be required to insure anyone or anything, if that's how I wish to lead my life.
I'm sure millions of americans don't have auto insurance and don't need it.

It's unbelievable to me that you can actually defend Barack Obama turning the US Government into an insurance company.

[yeahwho]

We already are an insurance company, we've insured the elderly for decades, we've handed out food stamps for decades and we've provided social security for decades.

I'm going to take care of my fellow citizens now I've had it with the health care industry and their blatant lies, deception, illness and death brought on through complete inattention to everything but profits.

We are paying right now this very moment taxes and insurance premiums for for the uninsured. I am insured and yes I am willing to pay even a little more knowing my neighbors are insured. I want to treat my fellow citizens with the same amount of money we've wasted on wars. It is true.

My support or non-support of Obama does not enter into the equation. I do respect that he has large enough nads to get this topic out and on the forefront of the peoples minds.

[travesty]

I'm going to take care of my fellow citizens now I've had it with the health care industry and their blatant lies, deception, illness and death brought on through complete inattention to everything but profits.

So are you going to open up your own clinic or just start visiting the local shaman when you get cancer?

[yeahwho]

A shaman is better than 0 heath care, or the devil denying you health care due to a pre-existing medical condition such as cancer.

[travesty]

ooooooh...the devil has a hand in this now......scary!:eek:

I would think that the devil would be the one that gives you cancer to begin with.

[yeahwho]

ooooooh...the devil has a hand in this now......scary!:eek:

I would think that the devil would be the one that gives you cancer to begin with.

Travesty, you are the one who started throwing around intermediaries between the human and spirit worlds. What sort of response were you expecting?

I have a different viewpoint on health care than you. That is the beginning, middle and end point of this discussion. I suspect it's rather boring to anyone else on this board, which is OK.

I'll gladly respond to your jabs and serious points.

[travesty]

sweet. otherwise this board would be boring to me, and I suspect you as well.

[freetibet]

In reply to comments on my comments:

Yep, in slavery every little African had a job. And possibly a bowl of soup everyday. I'm not saying it was a good system (the Democrats liked it in the 1850s ;D).

No need to "scour the Internet". First, public healthcare is socialist just as the Third Reich was (in general - face it, it was no rightwing hell). Second, in such a system people get stuck in queues waiting for an appointment with the doctor who has no dates left in his calendar for the next six months. Resources (especially human in the form of doctors) are wasted in every possible way which means that people in the need don't get the help they require because doctors are stuck with paperwork or curing petty diseases (eg knife stabs of [[[immigrant]]] mob members, haha) of other insured people. As the system gets short on money, ideas like euthanasia or not-wasting-money-on-treatment-of-people-over-70 pop up. And there we are in point: third, a doctor acts just like socialist doctor J. Mengele of Germany, ie he/she decides who will live and who will not. Inhumane.

Naturally, if the patient hadn't been robbed in the form of insurance and taxes in the first place, he/she would have the money to pay any private doctor and get proper treatment fast. This would be a good incentive to the doctors who would then actually have their interest in the longest life expectancy of such paying patient.

[Bob]

i missed the part where you explained how nazi germany's healthcare system worked. i honestly don't know what nazi germany's healthcare system was like, can you explain it to me with, i dunno one or two details? i'd ask you to cite something but that's asking a lot of you, i understand if you don't want to

[freetibet]

*sigh* It deliberately eliminated the weak ones (euthanasia, abortion). And that's the logic of public healthcare, even if there is no actual Mengele.

[freetibet]

There you go-oogle.

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/national-health-care-medicine-in-germany-1918-1945/#

[Bob]

you're so cute

[Echewta]

The logic of public health care is to eliminate the weak?

Unlike private health care that is avaialble and affordable to those who are "strong" by having decent paying or above jobs?

[RobMoney$]

I'm going to take care of my fellow citizens now I've had it with the health care industry and their blatant lies, deception, illness and death brought on through complete inattention to everything but profits.

Oh, YOU'VE decided YOU'RE going to take care of YOUR fellow citizens now?
They're all yours now, right?
How fucking nobel of you.

Shall I send them your address so they know where to go to get taken care of?

And I'm sure you'll be happy to accomodate not only YOUR fellow citizens, but the millions of citizens from other countries living here illegally too, right?



Brav-fucking-OH.

[yeahwho]

Oh, YOU'VE decided YOU'RE going to take care of YOUR fellow citizens now?
They're all yours now, right?
How fucking nobel of you.

Shall I send them your address so they know where to go to get taken care of?

And I'm sure you'll be happy to accomodate not only YOUR fellow citizens, but the millions of citizens from other countries living here illegally too, right?



Brav-fucking-OH.

Such a positive message you're presenting. It gives me hope.

[yeahwho]

Here is a little discussed bill passed in 1986 which many of you may be aware of some perhaps not, this is the way it works right now today when you show up without insurance, citizenship or money at the local hospital, it's called the

Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act)

Obama made a slight reference to it a few days ago when he mention we already are paying a hidden tax for these patients to the tune of appx. $1000 per per person in the usa.