Homeland Chief on terrorist attempt stopped by passengers: THE SYSTEM WORKED?!

[RobMoney$]

W.T.F.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V_Godcyq-s

So basically what she said is that it's ok if a plane gets blown up as long as right afterward we institute further screening and let people in Europe know to do the same.
The reason this plane didn't blow up was because the guy wasn't competent enough to set off the explosive he brought on board.
This is the second time a "rookie" terrorist could not get the bomb that was already on the plane lit correctly.

How stupid does she think we are?


Obama, there's no excuse for institutional incompetence. Fire this hack.

[YoungRemy]

why is there a watch list if no one watching them?

she retracted her spin today...

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano conceded Monday that the aviation security system failed when a young man on a watchlist with a U.S. visa in his pocket and a powerful explosive hidden on his body was allowed to board a flight from Amsterdam to Detroit.

[RobMoney$]

It's just that as a potential passenger of an airline, no one ever informed me that I was part of the security system.

I just can't help but wonder WTF is going on here with our elected officials?

GW was completely out to lunch.
Kerry nearly flunked out of college.
Gore is a moron.
McCain admits he knows next to nothing about economics.

Obama seemed bright, but even he has dropped the ball several times and is losing educated independents at an increasing rate.


Why the hell can't we get normal, competent, intelligent, people in office or appointed positions?

Just ridiculous.

[travesty]

Once again, I can't lay it out there any better than the prophet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcCPlkw6dO0)

[RobMoney$]

"The best minds are not in government. If any were, business would steal them away." - Ronald Reagan




In general, politics attracts either power hungry egomaniacs or slackers, the brightest Americans stay away from government.
I'm dead serious when I say there are at least 10 people in my corporate office that I have worked with that would blow your average Congressman/Senator out of the water, and that's not including our corporate executives.
Our CFO (Ivy League MBA and turned our corporation into one of the top corporations in the world) would chew these morons up and spit them out.

[yeahwho]

"The best minds are not in government. If any were, business would steal them away." - Ronald Reagan




In general, politics attracts either power hungry egomaniacs or slackers, the brightest Americans stay away from government.
I'm dead serious when I say there are at least 10 people in my corporate office that I have worked with that would blow your average Congressman/Senator out of the water, and that's not including our corporate executives.
Our CFO (Ivy League MBA and turned our corporation into one of the top corporations in the world) would chew these morons up and spit them out. It's the same down here at the carwash too. Especially with us all quoting Ronald Reagen all day.

plus mass towel snapping

[YoungRemy]

the way our country responds to terrorism is laughable.

it's such a reactionary game of finger pointing and to me it seems it has never been preventative actions being put in place.

9/11- One hand (CIA) has no clue what the other hand (FBI) is doing. Someone dropped the ball. Let's invent a branch of government (Homeland Security) and make the lowest paid federal emplyees, ie airport screeners (TSA) in charge of our safety.

meanwhile, let's search Grandma and little Bobby's stuffed bear because they were picked at random. that system really works. :rolleyes:

no pocketknives or box cutters allowed on planes, kiddos!

Dec. 2001- Richard Reid attempts to blow up a plane with an explosive made of liquid in his shoe. From now on, no liquids on planes. make up some arbitrary formula for how much liquid or gel is allowed on a carry on.

let's say it takes 5 ounces of liquid to blow up a plane. five terrorists walk on a plane with one-ounce bottles of liquid in a plastic bag.

do the math.

oh, and take your shoes off before you enter security! that'll do the trick. because every terrorist is going to use the same failed method that Richard Reid did.

Flash Forward to this latest incident under the Obama administration, the first big scare we've seen that the government has told us about.

remember, Bush said that there were actually thwarted attacks with the advent of the new restrictions and resources.

some nigerian extremist sews some powder explosives in his tighty whities and now you can't fly with a fucking book in your lap or get up to take a leak on an international flight. forget the fact that the government failed to keep tabs on a man who was on a federal watch list. a man whose father warned the US Embassy this would happen...

not a no-fly list, a watch list.

yet the last time I checked they eased the restrictions on lighters and matches, unless something changed over the last couple of days.

absolutely no rhyme or reason.

[saz]

"The best minds are not in government. If any were, business would steal them away." - Ronald Reagan




In general, politics attracts either power hungry egomaniacs or slackers, the brightest Americans stay away from government.
I'm dead serious when I say there are at least 10 people in my corporate office that I have worked with that would blow your average Congressman/Senator out of the water, and that's not including our corporate executives.
Our CFO (Ivy League MBA and turned our corporation into one of the top corporations in the world) would chew these morons up and spit them out.

except for the majority of wall street, the banking industry, the entire health insurance industry, haliburton, blackwater, the rebuilding of iraq et al.

[YoungRemy]

there's one thing I do know that works: the vigilance of the American people to take action.

I'm a believer that the true War on Terror started on Flight 93 on 9/11.

[Echewta]

except for the majority of wall street, the banking industry, the entire health insurance industry, haliburton, blackwater, the rebuilding of iraq et al.

I disagree and think that the above proves Rob's point. These people/companies take advantage of the government, create loopholes, etc. through government to get what they want. Brilliant. Government usually doesn't push back.

Perhaps if there was better pay in the government for these higher up jobs, such as the pay you would find as a CEO or corporate executive? Hahahaha, yea I know...

[RobMoney$]

I disagree and think that the above proves Rob's point. These people/companies take advantage of the government, create loopholes, etc. through government to get what they want. Brilliant. Government usually doesn't push back.


Seriously, take a look at the video I linked of Napolitano.
I think I could probably find 10 people who post on this MB who have more wit and are sharper than her.
I realize this problem predates Obama, but he appointed her.
Poor judgement on his part, and if she's the best he had to choose from, our country has a serious problem.

[RobMoney$]

there's one thing I do know that works: the vigilance of the American people to take action.

I'm a believer that the true War on Terror started on Flight 93 on 9/11.


Couldn't disagree more, Remy.

Americans are all to use to allowing our liberties to be renamed "privileges" and to have them taken away from us in the name of safety.

I mean, we are still taking off our shoes at airports for crying out loud.
And we, as Americans,... "Give us Liberty, or give us Death", take this?
We'll take whatever stupid rule goes into effect in the wake of this in the name of a promise that's impossible to deliver,
Safety.
I'm sure we can be "safer" but we'll never be safe.
We strip our dignity and rights to the bone, so that we can enjoy the "priviledge" of flying, and we'll do it without the hint of resistance.


I swear to God, I'd rather die on a plane from an incompetent shoe bomber than ever take off my shoes for some mouthbreathing high school graduate in an airport again.

[YoungRemy]

i actually couldn't agree more than what you just posted. it's back to treating the public like they are the ones suspected of being terrorists.

and putting incompetent high school graduates in charge of screening us.

but what's the part you don't agree with? Americans being vigilant?

you seem like the type of person who would crack a dude's neck if he tried shit like that on a plane.

I want more people like that on my plane, more people like Jeremy Glick (http://www.unitedheroes.com/Jeremy-Glick.html)

[RobMoney$]

Yeah, I would like to think that I would not hesitate to respond in a situation like that. I think more people than not would respond when their own life is in danger at that moment.

I don't think Americans look very much beyond the moment they are living in and are willing to give much resistance to their liberties being sumarily taken from them.

Not unless Glenn Beck tells them to.

[saz]

did this similar sort of outrage exist after 9/11 and the attempt made by the so-called shoe bomber? certainly not from the right and fox news et al, who called anyone who disagreed with the bush administration "traitors", "unpatriotic", "al-qaeda sympathizers" etc.

[yeahwho]

Seriously, take a look at the video I linked of Napolitano.
I think I could probably find 10 people who post on this MB who have more wit and are sharper than her.
.

I would like to "Thank You" up front for that compliment, because I know you have to be talking about me! Yet I am but only one, who could these other posters be? :p

I gave up trying to figure out why my company runs business the way it does. We have dealings with federal, state and local governments daily which dictate how our operations will be run. Yet our records in efficiency, safety and delivery are exceptionally higher than those agencies which regulate us. So much so that some of the largest government agencies out there have adopted our systems.

That said, I have nothing to add rather than a few excellent "Letters to the Editor (http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2009/12/29/us/29terror.html?sort=recommended)" from a NYTimes article named, Obama Seeks to Reassure U.S. After Bombing Attempt

especially this one that follows my sentiments (and all PC owners) exactly;

Official government response : Our security system worked and Santa was delayed this year due to the storm on the East coast.

Second absurd statement I keep hearing about this near disaster is that it is so hard to scan the 500,000 names on the watch list. Well, sparky, explain this : My $400 desk top computer does a virus scan everyday of 120,000 files each of which contain hundreds and thousands of words as long as people's names. That is at least 10 million names, or 20 times the watch list.. but I keep reading how "difficult" it is to check the watch list because it is a half million ! Hey, you can lease my home computer for the low low defense department price of just $29,468/week ! A real steal considering you could scan EVERY passenger's ID. Just take my pittance out of the hundreds of billons we spend on security every year. Thanks and have a nice day ! James

[travesty]

except for the majority of wall street, the banking industry, the entire health insurance industry, haliburton, blackwater, the rebuilding of iraq et al.

All of those people/ companies seem to be making tons of money (i.e. excelling at their jobs). Seems to be that you are proving Rob's point for him Saz.

[yeahwho]

Here are some interesting numbers (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/12/odds-of-airborne-terror.html) on flying into, out of and within US skies. Along with some pretty funny responses.

[saz]

All of those people/ companies seem to be making tons of money (i.e. excelling at their jobs). Seems to be that you are proving Rob's point for him Saz.

proving his point that wall street and the banks fucked over america and the global economy through their greed, scams and incompetence? proving his point how americans are not only getting screwed but also dying by having their coverage denied by greedy private health insurance scumbags? proving his point that haliburton and all of the private contractors have not only competely fucked up the rebuilding of iraq, but also bilked the american tax payer for billions of dollars which were unaccounted for? proving his point by having private mercenary firms running amok in iraq?

"making tons of money" doesn't equate success, especially considering that the country and the tax payers are getting competely fucked over in the process.

[YoungRemy]

i wouldn't discuss Glenn Beck/Fox News/Corporate America in a thread like this. they are irrelevant here.

a Robmoney$ started thread doesn't always have to go down that route in order to concede our government has failed to keep us completely safe.

of course there was an outcry/outrage of civil liberties being discussed after 9/11 & Richard Reid.

what I want to know is what has the government done to protect us from future attacks? I don't think they have done much, and in both major cases it was the people on the planes who wrecked shop and took matters into their own hands.

[saz]

what I want to know is what has the government done to protect us from future attacks? I don't think they have done much, and in both major cases it was the people on the planes who wrecked shop and took matters into their own hands.


NYC Terror Plot Accomplices Known: AP

Tom Hays and Devlin Barrett l 09/28/09 09:10 PM | The Associated Press

NEW YORK — After interrupting what they believed was a terrorist plot on New York City with a series of raids and arrests, authorities have intensified their focus on possible accomplices of the suspected al-Qaida associate at the heart of the case, a law enforcement official said Monday.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation continues, confirmed that investigators know the identities of at least three people believed to be in on a bombing plot they say might have targeted mass transit in the New York area.

Authorities released a flurry of terrorism warnings for sports complexes, hotels and transit systems even while saying the plot was disrupted before it become an immediate threat. But many questions remain unanswered, including the whereabouts of co-conspirators and whether any may be cooperating with the probe.

There also have been no reports that any of the bomb-making materials have been recovered.

The accomplices are suspected of traveling from New York City to suburban Denver this summer and using stolen credit cards to help Najibullah Zazi stockpile beauty products containing hydrogen peroxide and acetone, which can be key ingredients for homemade bombs, authorities have said.

Before the raids, police detectives showed a source – a Queens imam at a mosque where Zazi had once worshipped – photographs of him and three people considered possible suspects, court papers say. It was unclear whether those three were the same ones suspected of traveling to Denver.

The official who spoke to The Associated Press declined to comment further Monday. Spokesmen James Margolin for the FBI, Edward Mullen for the New York Police Department and Robert Nardoza for the U.S. attorney's office in Brooklyn declined to discuss the case.

After initially being charged along with his father and the imam with lying to investigators, Zazi was due in federal court in Brooklyn on Tuesday for an arraignment on charges he conspired to use weapons of mass destruction. The 24-year-old airport van driver has denied any wrongdoing.

A letter filed by Brooklyn prosecutors last week argued that that Zazi should be jailed indefinitely because, as an Afghan immigrant with ties to Pakistan, he could flee, and because he "poses a significant danger" to the community.

Evidence gathered so far – including bomb-making instructions found on his laptop computer – shows "that Zazi remained committed to detonating an explosive device" until he was arrested, the letter said.

Prosecutors allege that Zazi has admitted that while living in Queens, he traveled last year to Pakistan and received explosives training from al-Qaida. Security videos and store receipts show that when he returned and moved to Aurora, Colo., he and three others bought several bottles of beauty products over the course of several weeks, court papers said.

On Sept. 6, Zazi took some of his products into a Colorado hotel room outfitted with a stove on which he later left acetone residue, authorities said. He repeatedly sought another person's help cooking up the bomb, "each communication more urgent in tone than the last," the papers said.

The FBI was listening to Zazi and becoming increasingly concerned as the anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and a New York visit by President Barack Obama approached, officials said. They decided to track him on Sept. 9 when he rented a car and drove to New York.

On Sept. 10, Zazi told the Queens imam in an intercepted phone call that he feared he was being watched, court papers said. The imam later tipped Zazi off, saying police had come around and asked questions, the papers said.

Zazi cut a five-day trip short and flew back to Denver on Sept. 12. He was arrested a week later.

.

[YoungRemy]

I'm more concerned about airplane safety.

considering the TSA recently published a how-to-manual for terrorists on the procedures of getting through security, I won't concede that they are doing their jobs...

It was a security breach and a big embarrassment for the Transportation Security Administration. A secret manual that tells airport screeners around the country how to do their jobs somehow wound up on line for all the world to see.

It detailed who should be screened, how often bags are checked for explosives, how to deal with CIA agents traveling with high-value intelligence assets - even provided images of various special identification cards, as CBS News correspondent Bob Orr reports.

The breach reveals some of the government's most sensitive aviation security secrets. A 93-page manual prepared for federal airport screeners shows samples of law enforcement and official credentials - federal air marshals, CIA officers, and members of Congress - IDs which criminals or terrorists could copy.

The document also reveals that travelers from a dozen countries including Cuba, North Korea, Somalia and Yemen are always subjected to extra screening.

The Transportation Security Administration says the security playbook, prepared in May 2008, is out of date and sensitive methods have been updated six times since then, adding in a statement that "TSA is confident that screening procedures currently in place remain strong."

Still, the TSA never meant for this information to be public. Each page of the report carries a notice reading, "WARNING: This record contains sensitive security information ... No part of this record may be disclosed to persons without a 'need to know.'"

The TSA says the whole report "improperly posted" by the agency on a government jobs site -
with redactions.

But the redaction consisted of black boxes added to a PDF document that are simple to remove. Anyone with some basic knowledge of working with Adobe Acrobat could have removed them with a few keystrokes.

"I mean clearly this was a rookie mistake," said Wired Magazine editor John Abell. "So let's just call this a very early Christmas present to the kinds of people that traffic this kind of secret information."

Some of the compromised information is just routine common sense: "An on-duty airport-assigned LEO (law enforcement officer) ... may be cleared ... without undergoing screening."

But, other guidance may be less intuitive. For example, searches for explosive residue are not required for wheelchairs, prosthetic devices and orthopedic shoes.

The TSA is investigating and says it takes the failure seriously. But, critics say with aviation a known terrorist target, it's a little late to get serious.



Spin City

[travesty]

"making tons of money" doesn't equate success, especially considering that the country and the tax payers are getting competely fucked over in the process.

It does if you are running a for profit business. That's kinda the point isn't it?

[Documad]

Second absurd statement I keep hearing about this near disaster is that it is so hard to scan the 500,000 names on the watch list.

See, I buy that to some extent. If we really have 500,000 enemies then we might as well throw in the towel right now. No way can we guarantee that none of them are going to get to us. An enemies list is completely useless if it has that many names on it.

I also don't think we can stop a committed nutball. All the nonsense they've done to us at airports is just window dressing. They know it's pointless. (And Harry Shearer gets to crow this week.)

[saz]

It does if you are running a for profit business. That's kinda the point isn't it?

no, it's just disgusting, despicable, unrelenting greed.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

what I want to know is what has the government done to protect us from future attacks? I don't think they have done much...

to be honest i do not want the government to do anything. this may sound strange but i do not feel the threat is serious enough to warrant further action since the number of american citizen deaths or injuries / year since 2001 is too low to warrant losses of civil liberties. the chances of swine flu are greater than being injured in a terrorist attack and i do not think the west deserves credit as it must be extremely difficult to recruit people for a suicide mission (regardless of how passionate the nutcases are) given the personal costs (virgins notwithstanding). basically the number of nutcases willing to die for a lame cause must be a limited resource (much rarer than fossil fuels i presume).

[Laver1969]

All the nonsense they've done to us at airports is just window dressing. They know it's pointless.

I had my PlayDoh StarWars xmas present investigated thoroughly at the airport last week.

[RobMoney$]

See, I buy that to some extent. If we really have 500,000 enemies then we might as well throw in the towel right now. No way can we guarantee that none of them are going to get to us. An enemies list is completely useless if it has that many names on it.




Some guy's father calls to say he's a radical, that guy's name should be in red on a screen in the airport within 30 seconds. Hell, these days you could probably link to his Facebook page and 30 pictures within a few clicks of the mouse.

[RobMoney$]

what I want to know is what has the government done to protect us from future attacks? I don't think they have done much, and in both major cases it was the people on the planes who wrecked shop and took matters into their own hands.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_airline_attack_regulations

Airlines: New rules keep passengers in seats

By JOAN LOWY, Associated Press Writer Joan Lowy, Associated Press Writer – Sat Dec 26, 3:53 pm ET WASHINGTON – Some airlines were telling passengers on Saturday that new government security regulations prohibit them from leaving their seats beginning an hour before landing

The regulations are a response to a suspected terrorism incident on Christmas Day.

Air Canada said in a statement that new rules imposed by the Transportation Security Administration limit on-board activities by passengers and crew in U.S. airspace. The airline said that during the final hour of flight passengers must remain seated. They won't be allowed access to carryon baggage or to have any items on their laps.

Flight attendants on some domestic flights are informing passengers of similar rules. Passengers on a flight from New York to Tampa Saturday morning were also told they must remain in their seats and couldn't have items in their laps, including laptops and pillows.

The TSA issued a security directive for U.S.-bound flights from overseas, according to a transportation security official who spoke on condition of anonymity because the official was not authorized to speak publicly.

The official said passengers traveling internationally could see increased security screening at gates and when they check their bags, as well as additional measures on flights such as stowing carryons and personal items before the plane lands.

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said in a statement Saturday that passengers flying to the U.S. from overseas may notice extra security, but she said the measures "are designed to be unpredictable, so passengers should not expect to see the same thing everywhere."

A Nigerian passenger on a Northwest Airlines flight from Amsterdam allegedly attempted to start a fire as the plane prepared to land in Detroit on Friday, according to authorities. The incident has sparked a major international terrorism investigation.

Air Canada said it was limiting passengers to one carryon bag in response to a request from the U.S. and Canadian governments.

The airline advised U.S.-bound passengers to restrict their carryon item to "the absolute minimum" or to not carry any bag on board at all.

"Carriage of any carryon item will result in lengthy security delays for the customer," the airline said.

U.S.-bound flights on all airlines are experiencing significant delays, said Duncan Dee, Air Canada's executive vice president and chief operating officer.

A spokeswoman with Infraero, a Brazilian government agency that oversees airport infrastructure, said that airlines had been asked by federal authorities to add another layer of security for international flights originating in the country after the attempted attack in the U.S.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because she was not authorized to discuss the matter, said that passengers would face an extra screening that would take place just before they boarded planes. She would give no more details, citing security concerns.

David Castelveter, a spokesman for the Air Transport Association, said the domestic airline industry has been in close coordination with the security administration since Friday's incident and there will be increased scrutiny of passengers. He declined to comment on whether new regulations have been put in place.




THIS is why the government is fucking stupid when it comes to dealing with this stuff.
"So a guy had a bomb in his lap 20 minutes before landing? Well, let's make a rule that you can't have anything in your lap during the last hour of your flight."
GENIUS!...I feel safer already.
How am I supposed to do my job in "the system" if I can't get up and stop the next terrorist in the last hour of the flight?


In other news, the saddest part of this is that instead of this terrorist being interrogated as an enemy combatant, he's given a lawyer and miranda rights... FUCKING LIBERALS!

Get me Dick Cheney, a bucket, a towel, and about 15 minutes.

[saz]

In other news, the saddest part of this is that instead of this terrorist being interrogated as an enemy combatant, he's given a lawyer and miranda rights... FUCKING LIBERALS!

Get me Dick Cheney, a bucket, a towel, and about 15 minutes.

no, that's called due process, a key component of western democracies, such as the united states. but perhaps you'd prefer the practices utilized in nazi germany or the soviet union.

[Bob]

Get me Dick Cheney, a bucket, a towel, and about 15 minutes.

which will solve...

[RobMoney$]

Which will get us INFORMATION.

I want to know everything this failure in life knows.

[Bob]

well, when neapolitano gets fired, you should apply to replace her; you seem to know exactly how to handle this kind of stuff, you'd be great

[RobMoney$]

no, that's called due process, a key component of western democracies, such as the united states. but perhaps you'd prefer the practices utilized in nazi germany or the soviet union.

pathetic

Quickly, name me another "western democracy" that grants Miranda rights.


Miranda rights are an American right.
Not German, Russian, French, or any other country. AMERICAN.
This guy tries to blow up an AMERICAN plane out of his hatred of our morals, rights, freedoms, and ways of life.


Ahh fuck it. I just can't be bothered with this.
I hope it's not one of your loved ones who are ever the victim of a terror attack from one of these subhumans.

[Bob]

pathetic

Quickly, name me another "western democracy" that grants Miranda rights.


Miranda rights are an American right.
Not German, Russian, French, or any other country. AMERICAN.
This guy tries to blow up an AMERICAN plane out of his hatred of our morals, rights, freedoms, and ways of life.


Ahh fuck it. I just can't be bothered with this.
I hope it's not one of your loved ones who are ever the victim of a terror attack from one of these subhumans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_rights#Equivalent_rights_in_other_countrie s

[YoungRemy]

THIS is why the government is fucking stupid when it comes to dealing with this stuff.
"So a guy had a bomb in his lap 20 minutes before landing? Well, let's make a rule that you can't have anything in your lap during the last hour of your flight."

GENIUS!...I feel safer already.
How am I supposed to do my job in "the system" if I can't get up and stop the next terrorist in the last hour of the flight?


In other news, the saddest part of this is that instead of this terrorist being interrogated as an enemy combatant, he's given a lawyer and miranda rights... FUCKING LIBERALS!

Get me Dick Cheney, a bucket, a towel, and about 15 minutes.

that's exactly what I was saying about the reactionary style of these latest attempts. whatever a failed terrorist tries to do on an airplane becomes TSA's flavor of the month as far as what's allowed or not allowed on a flight.

lol, since the government is basically relying on the flying public and mass transit riders to fight terrorism for them, (IF YOU SEE SOMETHING SAY SOMETHING) I'm sure no one will mind if 8 or so passengers bum-rush the next guy who tries something...

I really can't agree with you any more Rob, but i wish it wasn't an Obama Administration thing/ Liberal thing for you...

Jose Padilla and Zacarias Moussaoui received due process just like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is about to... (even though he was waterboarded)

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Quickly, name me another "western democracy" that grants Miranda rights.


Rob, unsure what you meant by this. Of course other Western nations have miranda rights. They probably originated in England...

[RobMoney$]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_rights#Equivalent_rights_in_other_countrie s


Perhaps you didn't read the very first line of your own link there, counselor...


A Miranda warning is a warning given by police in the United States to criminal suspects in police custody, or in a custodial situation, before they are interrogated.



According to your link, other countries may give you the right to be silent as not to incriminate yourself, but no one else will offer you free legal council for any questioning if you're too destitute to afford it on your own.
And that's really what my outrage over Mirandizing him was about, the fact we make sure he's all lawyered up before we question him to insure his fucking "American" rights are protected.

Also the fact that we caught him red fucking handed means he doesn't even need to be questioned about the crime. We have sufficient evidence to indict.
No Miranda warning is necessary, counselor.
I don't need to question him about the plane bombing, I want info about who and what he knows about AQ.


He's a POW, IMO. He's not accused of DUI, or Assault.
He tried to blow up a plane.
He's an agent of AQ, who we are in a Congressionally sanctioned war against.
He's a POW, PERIOD.

Perhaps we could ask John McCain what the rights are that he received as a POW?

[Echewta]

See, but some here are saying that the rules are too over the top. So the guy has something in his lap 20 minutes before landing. Easy fix, nothing in your lap. Guy tries to light his shoe on fire because its a bomb. Easy fix, take your shoes off to be inspected. Guys storm the cockpit and take over the plane. Easy fix, cockpit doors can never be opened during flight and reenforced.
We think the rules are over the top and crazy and yet the government doesn't do enough. The system is never going to be perfect. People are going to slip through. The best intensions and laws are only as good as the person enforcing them at the time. We complain about the stereotypical TSA worker as being barely high school educated but cry about airline prices being so high. I made the cake and I want to eat it too.

Terrorist are going to win a few battles, no matter what we ever do. Even the movie Minority Report showed flaws in predicting future crimes.
The first step in finding the solution to "winning the war on terror" is that you are never going to win it. Its like winning the war on drunk driving, cancer, earthquakes, etc.

[Dorothy Wood]

See, but some here are saying that the rules are too over the top. So the guy has something in his lap 20 minutes before landing. Easy fix, nothing in your lap. Guy tries to light his shoe on fire because its a bomb. Easy fix, take your shoes off to be inspected. Guys storm the cockpit and take over the plane. Easy fix, cockpit doors can never be opened during flight and reenforced.
We think the rules are over the top and crazy and yet the government doesn't do enough. The system is never going to be perfect. People are going to slip through. The best intensions and laws are only as good as the person enforcing them at the time. We complain about the stereotypical TSA worker as being barely high school educated but cry about airline prices being so high. I made the cake and I want to eat it too.

Terrorist are going to win a few battles, no matter what we ever do. Even the movie Minority Report showed flaws in predicting future crimes.
The first step in finding the solution to "winning the war on terror" is that you are never going to win it. Its like winning the war on drunk driving, cancer, earthquakes, etc.

this.

personally, I'm happy that average citizens are aware enough to thwart bombers. I don't think everyone should go around suspecting everyone who looks bomby, but it's important to be aware of your surroundings.

there are rules and regulations for travel to keep the majority of people safe, I don't mind being scanned for metal or not taking liquids in my carry-on. I do mind that they waste time with stupid things like taking my boyfriend's sharpie markers.

honestly, even if a TSA manual was leaked, just one practice trip to the airport would allow someone to figure out a way to bring an explosive on board a plane.

[RobMoney$]

See, but some here are saying that the rules are too over the top. So the guy has something in his lap 20 minutes before landing. Easy fix, nothing in your lap. Guy tries to light his shoe on fire because its a bomb. Easy fix, take your shoes off to be inspected. Guys storm the cockpit and take over the plane. Easy fix, cockpit doors can never be opened during flight and reenforced.

We think the rules are over the top and crazy and yet the government doesn't do enough. The system is never going to be perfect. People are going to slip through. The best intensions and laws are only as good as the person enforcing them at the time. We complain about the stereotypical TSA worker as being barely high school educated but cry about airline prices being so high. I made the cake and I want to eat it too.

Terrorist are going to win a few battles, no matter what we ever do. Even the movie Minority Report showed flaws in predicting future crimes.
The first step in finding the solution to "winning the war on terror" is that you are never going to win it. Its like winning the war on drunk driving, cancer, earthquakes, etc.

You're right, when you're putting trillions of dollars into health care and bailing out corporate america, it's kind of hard to expect us to spend anything else on airline safety. We'll just make more rules that entail making the American sheep jump through more hoops so that all the soccer moms will feel like they're "safe" again.
The polls have to reflect that public opinion first before our leaders will commit funding to it.


Anyone who thinks reactionary rules like this will ever solve anything is a fool. Every parent who's ever raised a child on this earth knows that.
I wonder if he was singing "Mary had a little lamb" before he attempted to try to detonate his bomb, would the DHS outlaw singing on a plane?
Make a rule to defend against this, they'll do that...
Make a rule to defend against that, they'll do something else...
And when you're just to the point of exhausting your resources to make air travel practically impenetrable, they'll attack a train, and then a building, and then a bridge.
It's pointless to even travel down that path.

Think about it, AQ committed exactly one pawn from their arsenal of followers to this bombing attempt. They didn't even commit to properly training him to detonate the bomb because a successful detonation isn't their main goal. It's merely a bonus.
Getting the US to commit more resources to reacting to this attempt is their goal.
Getting the US to forfiet more of it's liberties and freedoms as an overreaction to this bombing attempt is their goal, and their goal is achieved.
So this mission is a success for AQ in that regard, and every mission that gets us to react and commit more resources will be further success in destroying America for them.

I think the problem at the root of this is not something you can fund, its a mindset of the American public. Our reaction to terror is:
"let this never happen again, let's do whatever we can do to prevent this from happening!!!", rather than seeing any given incident for what it is, an incident.
Often unfortunate, and yes, not without collateral damage. But god damn, we're ceding so much of our basic liberty without a fight.
The bottom line is that you're still safer in the air and on an airplane than you are in your own home. There's no need to committ such resources to such a small problem.
I advocate spending money on 3D imaging machines at all terminals that have US bound flights throughout the world.
No taking off your shoes, or jumping through hoops like a trained seal, just a scan of your person to see if you're concealing anything.
That's about all I'm willing to forfeit to these terrorists.

[saz]

What al-Qaeda Can't Do

By Peter Beinart
Monday, Jan. 18, 2010
Time.com (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1952315,00.html)


Here's a fact about the underwear attack that you might have missed in the media shoutfest: it failed. It failed, first of all, because Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab was just one terrorist. Once upon a time, al-Qaeda's modus operandi was to launch multiple, simultaneous attacks. That way, even if one attack failed, the entire operation wouldn't. On 9/11, the network deployed 19 hijackers on four planes; on 12/25, by contrast, it managed only one. Second, the underwear attack failed because Abdulmutallab wasn't particularly well trained. The 19 Sept. 11 hijackers were personally selected by Osama bin Laden from the tens of thousands of potential killers who went through al-Qaeda's Afghan training camps in the 1990s. The ringleaders got extensive training on the design of airplanes and the behavior of aircraft crews, even before they enrolled in U.S. flight schools. The grunts were made to slit the throats of camels and sheep to overcome their inhibitions about murder. Abdulmutallab, by contrast, reportedly used a syringe to try to detonate a notoriously hard-to-detonate explosive called PETN. "To make this stuff work," says Van Romero, an explosives expert at New Mexico Tech, "you have to know what you're doing." Abdulmutallab, it appears, did not.

What's more, even if Abdulmutallab had succeeded in blowing up Northwest Flight 253, he would have killed only one-tenth as many people as died on 9/11. Yes, using the word only is ghoulish when you're talking about hundreds of lives. But after Sept. 11, George W. Bush warned about terrorists killing "hundreds of thousands of innocent people" in "a day of horror like none we have ever known." The conventional wisdom was that the next terrorist attack would not merely equal 9/11 but be worse.

In fact, terrorists have not pulled off another attack on the scale of 9/11 anywhere in the world. A 2007 study by Canada's Simon Fraser University found the global death toll from terrorist attacks has substantially decreased since 2001. While al-Qaeda plots do sometimes succeed--like the double-agent operation that killed seven CIA officers in Afghanistan last month--they have become, Rand terrorism expert Brian Jenkins points out, less frequent and less potent.

Why can al-Qaeda no longer pull off the big one? For one thing, it's under more pressure. In preparing the 9/11 attacks, the hijackers and their bosses took dozens of international flights and repeatedly opened U.S. bank accounts under their own names. Al-Qaeda operated a document center at the Kandahar airport. All that would be virtually impossible today, as hordes of counterterrorism officials scrutinize financial transactions and cell-phone calls, and drones track al-Qaeda leaders around the clock. And while government no-fly lists remain flawed, at least they exist. Today, the number of suspected terrorists prohibited from boarding a plane in the U.S. is about 4,000. Before Sept. 11, according to al-Qaeda expert Peter Bergen, it was 16.

Al-Qaeda is not just under more pressure from the West. It's also under more pressure from fellow Muslims. Across the greater Middle East, notes Jenkins, governments that once took a passive, or even indulgent, view of al-Qaeda have been frightened into action by jihadist attacks on their soil. Al-Qaeda's butchery has wrecked its image among ordinary Muslims. After jihadists bombed a wedding in Amman in 2005, the percentage of Jordanians who said they trusted bin Laden to "do the right thing" dropped from 25% to less than 1%. In Pakistan, the site of repeated attacks, support for al-Qaeda fell from 25% in 2008 to 9% the next year. In 2007, the Pew Research Center found that in Pakistan, Lebanon, Indonesia and Bangladesh, support for terrorism had dropped by at least half since 2002.

All this means that even in places like Pakistan and Yemen where al-Qaeda or its affiliates retain some organizational presence, it is much harder to train lots of would-be terrorists for complex, mass-casualty attacks. In response, al-Qaeda seems to be relying more on solo operators, people like Abdulmutallab, Fort Hood gunman Major Nidal Malik Hasan and Najibullah Zazi, the Afghan American arrested last year for allegedly plotting to blow up buildings in New York. These lone wolves are harder to catch, but they're also less likely to do massive damage. Al-Qaeda's new motto, according to New York City police commissioner Raymond Kelly, seems to be "If you can't do the big attacks, do the small attacks." Not exactly cause for celebration, but certainly not cause for the hysteria that has gripped Washington since Christmas Day.

.

[saz]

CNN Poll: Majority confident Obama can handle terrorism
Posted: January 11th, 2010 01:53 PM ET


Washington (CNN) – In the wake of the Christmas day attempt to blow up a U.S. airliner, most Americans remain confident that the Obama administration can protect the country from terrorism, according to a new national poll.

A CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey (http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/01/11/rel1aa.pdf) released Monday also indicates that the vast majority of Americans believe that full-body scanners should be used in airports across the country.

Nearly two-thirds of people questioned in the poll say they have a moderate or great deal of confidence in the administration to protect the public from future terrorist attacks, up 2 points from August. Thirty-five percent say they have not much or no confidence at all, down 1 point from August.

A number of Republicans have criticized the president over his handling of the attempted bombing of Northwest flight 253 from Amsterdam to Detroit. But according to the survey, 57 percent approve of the way President Barack Obama's responded, with 39 percent disapproving of how he handled the situation.

"Only a third of Republicans have a positive view of Obama on this matter, but the key for the administration is the 55 percent of independents who approve of how the president responded to the incident on Christmas Day," says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland.

The poll also indicates no increase in overall concerns about terrorism. "In October, about a third said they were worried that a family member would become a victim of terrorism, and that number is unchanged in the wake of the attempted attack in December," Holland notes.
"The public seems to react calmly to individual incidents, possibly because most Americans believe that the government cannot prevent every single terrorist plot from occurring."

Six in 10 say the terrorists will always find a way to launch an attack, no matter what the government does, he adds - identical to the number who felt that way during the Bush administration.

The poll indicates that a majority of the public, 57 percent, think suspect Umar Farouk AbdulMutallab, should be tried in military court and not the civilian criminal courts that are currently handling this case. Forty-two percent back handling this case in civilian court.

According to the survey, Americans are also split on whether heads should roll because as a result of the attempted bombing of the airliner. Forty-six percent of people questioned feel that top officials in the federal agencies responsible for handling the issue of terrorism should be fired, with 51 percent saying no.

The poll indicates that nearly eight in 10 believe that full-body scanners should be used in U.S. airports, and only 15 percent say they would refuse to go through one of the new machines at an airport, if asked to do so.

"Most Americans don't see full-body scanners as a health risk, and more than seven in 10 say they would be unconcerned if asked to go through one at an airport. Women in particular seem to prefer the idea of a full-body scanner to being frisked by a security guard, even when the question makes clear that the guard doing the manual pat-down would also be a woman."

The CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll was conducted Friday through Sunday, with 1,021 adult Americans questioned by telephone. The survey's overall sampling error is plus or minus 3 percentage points.

–CNN Deputy Political Director Paul Steinhauser contributed to this report


.

[Echewta]

Excluding the line you have to wait in, how much time does it really take to jump through the hoops domesticaly? Hours? Dozens of minutes? Hardly, unless you are pulled aside, but even then. I think the longest search I had was in Hawaii where they inspect your carry on and check in luggage for agricultural items as well as your shoes, laptops, etc. 10 minutes tops once you went through the process? 15 minutes? The line was probably about 1/2 hour? I have no problem or issue with this and it helps me to buy new socks often so I won't be embarressed by holes. Seriously, my big toes destroy socks like crazy. Win win.

[Documad]

My longest wait for a search was my last flight out of Gatwick. I'll admit that I would have completely lost my shit except I feared that they wouldn't let me on the plane if I did that. I am not one of the clowns with the gigantic carry on but they pulled apart everything in my backpack for about 30 minutes. This was after I had gone through the regular search. It was supposed to be a random extra search right before I boarded the plane. And the part that pissed me off was that they weren't actually looking at the things. It was this elaborate fake search that moved incredibly slowly. The search only ended because the plane was going to leave. And then when I finally get on the plane I can't use the overhead bin because I'm the last one on the plane. Yeah, my little bag fit under my feet but I wanted a tiny bit of leg room for a flight across the fucking ocean.

It would all be fine if this was helping to sort out the terrorists but it's not. It's just a show.

[RobMoney$]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/28/AR2010012803511.html?sub=AR



The handling of the Christmas Day bombing suspect: the scandal grows


By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, January 29, 2010


The real scandal surrounding the failed Christmas Day airline bombing was not the fact that a terrorist got on a plane -- that can happen to any administration, as it surely did to the Bush administration -- but what happened afterward when Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab was captured and came under the full control of the U.S. government.

After 50 minutes of questioning him, the Obama administration chose, reflexively and mindlessly, to give the chatty terrorist the right to remain silent. Which he immediately did, undoubtedly denying us crucial information about al-Qaeda in Yemen, which had trained, armed and dispatched him.

We have since learned that the decision to Mirandize Abdulmutallab had been made without the knowledge of or consultation with (1) the secretary of defense, (2) the secretary of homeland security, (3) the director of the FBI, (4) the director of the National Counterterrorism Center or (5) the director of national intelligence (DNI).

The Justice Department acted not just unilaterally but unaccountably. Obama's own DNI said that Abdulmutallab should have been interrogated by the HIG, the administration's new High-Value Detainee Interrogation Group.

Perhaps you hadn't heard the term. Well, in the very first week of his presidency, Obama abolished by executive order the Bush-Cheney interrogation procedures and pledged to study a substitute mechanism. In August, the administration announced the establishment of the HIG, housed in the FBI but overseen by the National Security Council.

Where was it during the Abdulmutallab case? Not available, admitted National Intelligence Director Dennis Blair, because it had been conceived for use only abroad. Had not one person in this vast administration of highly nuanced sophisticates considered the possibility of a terror attack on American soil?


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It gets worse. Blair later had to explain that the HIG was not deployed because it does not yet exist. After a year! I suppose this administration was so busy deploying scores of the country's best lawyerly minds on finding the most rapid way to release Gitmo miscreants that it could not be bothered to establish a single operational HIG team to interrogate at-large miscreants with actionable intelligence that might save American lives.

Travesties of this magnitude are not lost on the American people. One of the reasons Scott Brown won in Massachusetts was his focus on the Mirandizing of Abdulmutallab.

Of course, this case is just a reflection of a larger problem: an administration that insists on treating Islamist terrorism as a law-enforcement issue. Which is why the Justice Department's other egregious terror decision, granting Khalid Sheik Mohammed a civilian trial in New York, is now the subject of a letter from six senators -- three Republicans, two Democrats and Joe Lieberman -- asking Attorney General Eric Holder to reverse the decision.

Lieberman and Sen. Susan Collins had written an earlier letter asking for Abdulmutallab to be turned over to the military for renewed interrogation. The problem is, it's hard to see how that decision gets reversed. Once you've read a man Miranda rights, what do you say? We are idiots? On second thought . . .
Hence the agitation over the KSM trial. This one can be reversed, and it's a good surrogate for this administration's insistence upon criminalizing -- and therefore trivializing -- a war on terror that has now struck three times in one year within the United States, twice with effect (the Arkansas killer and the Fort Hood shooter) and once with a shockingly near miss (Abdulmutallab).

On the KSM civilian trial, sentiment is widespread that it is quite insane to spend $200 million a year to give the killer of 3,000 innocents the largest propaganda platform on earth, while at the same time granting civilian rights of cross-examination and discovery that risk betraying U.S. intelligence sources and methods.

Accordingly, Sen. Lindsey Graham and Rep. Frank Wolf have gone beyond appeals to the administration and are planning to introduce a bill to block funding for the trial. It's an important measure. It makes flesh an otherwise abstract issue -- should terrorists be treated as enemy combatants or criminal defendants? The vote will force members of Congress to declare themselves. There will be no hiding from the question.

Congress may not be able to roll back the Abdulmutallab travesty. But there will be future Abdulmutallabs. By cutting off funding for the KSM trial, Congress can send Obama a clear message: The Constitution is neither a safety net for illegal enemy combatants nor a suicide pact for us.

letters@charleskrauthammer.com (letters@charleskrauthammer.com)






Not that we've come to expect anything less, but this is insanity from this Administration.
If the Republicans just ran on this sort of nonsense and nothing else, they would crush Democrats in November.


Bobby, please respond.
Considering your previous opinions in this thread, I'm interested in what your opinion is on this piece.
Also keep in mind that KSM's trial costs are being estimated at $100 Billion per year.