Canadian Premier heads to US for heart surgery

[RobMoney$]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/nfld-premier-travels-to-us-for-heart-surgery/article1452810/


The heart and soul of Newfoundland politics is in for repair - and it's not in his home province or even in Canada, for that matter.

Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams is scheduled for heart surgery in the United States, a move that throws into question his province's and his nation's health-care system.

A source confirmed to The Globe and Mail late yesterday that Mr. Williams has left St. John's for an undisclosed destination in the U.S. to have heart surgery later in the week.

The 59-year-old Conservative left yesterday morning, spokesperson Elizabeth Matthews said, without disclosing his location. While some of his critics were tight-lipped last night, the online public questioned his exodus - why the care he needed was not available in Canada, or whether he preferred treatment in the U.S.



LOL
Draw your own conclusions.

[Monsieur Decuts]

You have the money, you get the healthcare you want?
You don't have the money, you die?

[Bob]

the facts are scant so it's hard to draw a correct conclusion without filling in the gaps with your preconceptions but if i had to do that i'd guess that the man has money and wants to spend it

[RobMoney$]

I love the excuses people come up with to defend stuff they know is hilarious, but is embaressing to their chosen political opinions.

[Bob]

I love the excuses people come up with to defend stuff they know is hilarious, but is embaressing to their chosen political opinions.

i don't really see what's hilarious or embarrassing about it. the US system works better than canada's if you have money, worse if you don't. when canada's unwashed masses come spilling across the border to avail themselves of our emergency rooms i'll blush for you

[RobMoney$]

But I thought our healthcare was severly lacking when compared with the rest of the world?
Countries like France, and Canada are rountinely lauded for having the ideal systems that America should pattern itself after.
Isn't that what all the pro-healthcare reform propoganda told us?

QueenAdrock has posted about loving the canadian system soo much she doesn't even want to return to the country until "we get our healthcare shit figured out" (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=1703336&postcount=18). (I seriously wouldn't know whether to laugh in their face, or weep for completely failing as a parent if either of my kids ever said something as ridiculous to me)

It's been the topic of many contemptable fights between she and I in this forum.




Serious question, Bob.
If this man truly had "money to spend", why come to a country rated so low on an international level of care?
Why not go to France?

[Bob]

But I thought our healthcare was severly lacking when compared with the rest of the world?
Countries like France, and Canada are rountinely lauded for having the ideal systems that America should pattern itself after.
Isn't that what all the pro-healthcare reform propoganda told us?

QueenAdrock has posted about loving the canadian system soo much she doesn't even want to return to the country until "we get our healthcare shit figured out" (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=1703336&postcount=18). (I seriously wouldn't know whether to laugh in their face, or weep for completely failing as a parent if either of my kids ever said something as ridiculous to me)

It's been the topic of many contemptable fights between she and I in this forum.




Serious question, Bob.
If this man truly had "money to spend", why come to a country rated so low on an international level of care?
Why not go to France?

i already said. american healthcare is great if you can afford it. this guy can. we're rated low because many can't.

[valvano]

i already said. american healthcare is great if you can afford it. this guy can. we're rated low because many can't.

you mean how like when rich democratic politicians send their own kids to private schools while refusing to push school vouchers, etc and force inner city poor kids to go to crumbling public schools? more liberal hypocrisy -do as I campaign, not as I do personally

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/11/martin.vouchers/index.html

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2009/05/why-democrat-politicians-send-their.html

[Monsieur Decuts]

are we really comparing apples to apples here? Premier = Governor = 24 year old college grad = 68 year old retiree?

[Bob]

you mean how like when rich democratic politicians send their own kids to private schools while refusing to push school vouchers, etc and force inner city poor kids to go to crumbling public schools? more liberal hypocrisy -do as I campaign, not as I do personally

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/11/martin.vouchers/index.html

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2009/05/why-democrat-politicians-send-their.html

sure, exactly like that, why not :rolleyes:

go away valvano

[RobMoney$]

are we really comparing apples to apples here? Premier = Governor = 24 year old college grad = 68 year old retiree?


And this is OK with you?

The Premier getting one level of care, and the commoners another?


I may consider this story the official Trump Card of the Healthcare debate.

[Bob]

I may consider this story the official Trump Card of the Healthcare debate.

careful, your boner is showing too

[valvano]

sure, exactly like that, why not :rolleyes:

go away valvano

16K posts...sounds like you may be the one who needs to go away and check out the real world....

[Bob]

fuck it, that was rude

[RobMoney$]

i already said. american healthcare is great if you can afford it. this guy can. we're rated low because many can't.


But I thought the US system was unacceptably behind on the international level, and thus was the reason we needed to reform it?
Not the affordability, but the level of care itself.

That's what the pro-reform people said?

Pro-reformers usually use these numbers to lobby for the need for reform.
WHO's rankings we came in 37th (http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html),
Canada actaully ranked higher than us coming in at 30th?

[Monsieur Decuts]

And this is OK with you?

The Premier getting one level of care, and the commoners another?


I may consider this story the official Trump Card of the Healthcare debate.


The advantage of capitalism. Sheiks and Kings come to the US for Healthcare as well. Doesn't phase me.

I didn't realize this debate was about access to Healthcare for the rich. In fact this goes to highlight what is wrong with the American healthcare system. Its for sale, not for the people.

[Monsieur Decuts]

But I thought the US system was unacceptably behind on the international level, and thus was the reason we needed to reform it?
Not the affordability, but the level of care itself.

That's what the pro-reform people said?

Pro-reformers usually use these numbers to lobby for the need for reform.
WHO's rankings we came in 37th (http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html),
Canada actaully ranked higher than us coming in at 30th?

what is the "level of care" a measure of ? the average level of care? is this guy coming to the US for the average level of care or for the level of care that keeps Dick Cheney's heart working with some kind of weird medical voodoo?

No one disputes that a for profit model will provide the best service to those who can afford the highest price do they? Is that what you're point was?

[RobMoney$]

The advantage of capitalism. Sheiks and Kings come to the US for Healthcare as well. Doesn't phase me.

Why? Because they can afford it, or because it's the best care available?

I didn't realize this debate was about access to Healthcare for the rich. In fact this goes to highlight what is wrong with the American healthcare system. Its for sale, not for the people.

How about the Canadian system then?
Good enough for the commoners, but if head south of the border if you need real care?

[RobMoney$]

No one disputes that a for profit model will provide the best service to those who can afford the highest price do they? Is that what you're point was?

But France's system isn't for profit, and they're ranked first in the world?

[Bob]

But I thought the US system was unacceptably behind on the international level, and thus was the reason we needed to reform it?
Not the affordability, but the level of care itself.

That's what the pro-reform people said?

Pro-reformers usually use these numbers to lobby for the need for reform.
WHO's rankings we came in 37th (http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html),
Canada actaully ranked higher than us coming in at 30th?

i don't think you can cite the quality of care available to a canadian premier as a representative example of the quality of care available to the average american (and then compare it to the quality of care available to average citizens of other countries in general). it's like watching people eat at a five star restaurant and saying "people in this country enjoy the best food in the world"

the highest quality care in the universe is irrelevant to most people if they don't have access to it. this doesn't mean nearly as much as you're blowing it up to be.

[Monsieur Decuts]

yes that's what I"m saying.

Pointless to debate if the comparisons aren't even close to being rational.

The Russian Space program will let anyone with 30 million dollars fly into orbit, but the US program is ranked the best in the world
even though most Americans have to run to Russia to get into orbit?

[RobMoney$]

OK, it's time to admit I'm playing possum a little here with you guys.

I'm trying to illustrate a point that we don't need healthcare reform in the US. You've just described to me how we have a more than adequate system.
The US has amazing healthcare, it's the U.S. healthcare insurance that is cruel and destructive.
What we need is health insurance reform.

[Bob]

OK, it's time to admit I'm playing possum a little here with you guys.

I'm trying to illustrate a point that we don't need healthcare reform in the US. You've just described to me how we have a more than adequate system.

we haven't, though. the quality of care available to the wealthy is still heads and shoulders above the quality of even most insured americans. unless you have some kind of plan to reform health insurance to the point where everyone's covered as well as a canadian premier i still don't see how this story is relevant because that level of care isn't representative of the quality of american healthcare in general.

all we've been saying is that the healthcare system works great for the wealthy. if there's a way to reform health insurance so that it works that well for everyone, great, but is there?

i mean, if you force home depot and subway to give their employees health insurance, and a minimum wage sandwich artist needs heart surgery, is he going to be as well off as this canadian premier (or a citizen of france or canada?)

[yeahwho]

Without any information on the details of what this surgery is,

"Having the surgery
done in the province was never an option that was offered to him," Dunderdale said. She refused to provide any medical background on Williams' condition, but said "his prognosis is very, very good."

I wouldn't venture too far into why he came to the US other than he is the Canadian Premier and it's serious. The speculation is running amok though,

from the Vancouver Sun (http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Doctors+unsure+Williams+would+heart+surgery/2514545/story.html);

While some of the more specialized procedures are concentrated in larger centres, "for the most part as far as I can tell everything is available in Canada," Feindel said.

The one significant exception would be surgery to the thoracic aorta, the giant blood vessel that carries blood that's pumped out of the heart to other organs. If a person develops a swelling or aneurysm, an abnormal bulging, in the thoracic aorta, and needs surgery to open the chest cavity, "that's a very extensive operation," Feindel said.

"It's generally very rarely done. It's done in Quebec but it's also so rare, certainly in Ontario, when we run across these cases we tend to send them to one of the heart centres in Texas."

The Baylor University Medical Center in Dallas, Texas, "has tremendous expertise in this. They're doing almost one or two of these cases a day, whereas in Ontario we might get two or three cases a year," Feindel said.

Someone with a thoracic aortic aneurysm is followed for many years.

"It's usually a fairly elective procedure and we usually have lots of warning to determine what should be done," Feindel says.

[Monsieur Decuts]

OK, it's time to admit I'm playing possum a little here with you guys.

I'm trying to illustrate a point that we don't need healthcare reform in the US. You've just described to me how we have a more than adequate system.
The US has amazing healthcare, it's the U.S. healthcare insurance that is cruel and destructive.
What we need is health insurance reform.

As someone very close to the US medical industry let me say that there is ALWAYS room for improvement in the delivery of care. I would say that Healthcare reform is exactly what is needed. A few simple regulatory actions could save millions of administrative costs that could go back into the system. The lack of standards and the drive for profit create decision making that benefits the bottom line.

Look at the HIPPA act of the 90s that created numerous claim submission standards so that MEDICARE didn't need to interpret proprietary data submissions but could dictate to the insurance companies how they need to communicate to get paid. This legislation kicked off a digital revolution in healthcare that has save countless millions.

The industry needs to be pushed by regulation, what industry doesn't need to be?

[saz]

The US has amazing healthcare, it's the U.S. healthcare insurance that is cruel and destructive.
What we need is health insurance reform.

yes rob, that is correct. (y)


now as a canuck, let me provide some insight into this story.

for the longest time newfoundland & labrador was one of the poorest provinces in our canadian federation - the american equivalent would probably be mississippi in your american union. it has long been deemed a "have not" province, until just recently, in the last few years or so, with oil revenues turning the tide. now over the years and decades, newfoundland & labrador's provincial governments have done a very shit job in strengthening its hospitals, health centres, clinics et al. it's been due to neglect, incompetence, and also extremely limited revenue. another crucial aspect to this is that newfoundland & labrador has been battling the canadian federal government for years, for greater revenue sharing or transfer payments.

now, every canadian in every province is guaranteed health insurance and access to a doctor. in this specific case with premier danny williams, it's been claimed that the procedure he requires is not available in the province of newfoundland & labrador, so williams is taking that as a que to fly south for his procedure. however, williams could very easily just travel to neighbouring provinces, such as quebec, for the procedure. i'm also skeptical that the procedure williams requires is not available in newfoundland & labrador.

finally, what's most important here is that not only is premier danny williams extremely wealthy, but he's also had a history of fighting with the federal government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Williams_(politician)#Controversies), and many suspect that he's attempting to embarrass the federal government by flying south for this procedure. regardless what he's done has likely not only pissed his constituents in his home province, but also millions of canadians across the country.



Danny Williams could have stayed in Canada for top cardiac care, doctors say

Tom Blackwell, National Post (http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2514581)
Published: Tuesday, February 02, 2010


Danny Williams' decision to seek out heart surgery in the United States may seem like an embarrassing blow to Canadian health care, but cardiac specialists say the Newfoundland Premier could have obtained virtually any heart treatment in his own country, carried out by top-notch doctors.

Long wait times for cardiac surgery were a problem 15 years ago but are generally "a thing of the past" in most parts of Canada, physicians insist. Where queues develop for elective operations, patients are routinely sent to other provinces for speedy care, with their own government's medicare plan picking up the tab, they say.

"Virtually all forms of cardiac surgery are looked after in Canada, and I would say extremely well," said Dr. Chris Feindel, a cardiac surgeon at Toronto's University Health Network. "Personally ... I would have my cardiac surgery done in Canada, no matter what resources I had at my disposal."

In fact, he said, patients from the United States and other countries come to the UHN's Peter Munk Cardiac Centre for valve repairs, a procedure developed by Toronto surgeons. Meanwhile, the death rate after bypass surgery in Ontario is among the lowest in North America, reports the province's Cardiac Care Network.

Kathy Dunderdale, Newfoundland and Labrador's deputy premier, confirmed yesterday the popular Premier, pictured, left for the United States on Monday to undergo heart surgery.

However, Ms. Dunderdale declined to detail his condition or the nature of the treatment he was receiving.

She said the operation is not available in Newfoundland and the decision to go south of the border was made after weeks of consultation with his doctors. Mr. Williams, 60, is expected to make a full recovery, said Ms. Dunderdale.

The spectacle of a prominent Canadian politician seeking out important health care in the U.S. is already being seized upon by opponents of health reform in the States, who tend to portray the proposed changes there as a move toward Canadian-style care.

"What a Newfie Joke!" blared David Horowitz's Newsreal, a conservative blog site. "[Mr. Williams] has so much confidence in his country's compassionate, socially just health care system he's come to the U.S. for heart surgery."

In fact, Newfoundland is able to provide bypasses and other common heart operations at home, but routinely ships patients to Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa for rarer procedures, such as transplants and treatment of congenital heart defects, said Dr. Eric Stone, a St. John's cardiologist.

There are simply not enough cases of that sort for surgeons in Newfoundland to develop the requisite expertise, he said. In 28 years, though, Dr. Stone said he has never had to refer a patient to the U.S.

"What is wrong is to create the impression the Canadian health care system can't take care of things," he said. "To get excited about that makes no sense to me."

Dr. Feindel said he is aware of only a single non-experimental heart operation not available in Canada: one to repair a rare aneurysm in the part of the aorta descending through the chest. While about 11,000 heart surgeries are carried out in Ontario every year, only one or two patients are sent to Baylor University Hospital in Texas to undergo the complex aorta operation, he said.

A half-dozen or so other Ontario patients are sent to the States yearly for emergency heart surgery that is closer at hand in the States because the patient lives near the border, said Kori Kingsbury, CEO of the Cardiac Care Network.

This country's heart care is otherwise on a par with the States, agreed Dr. Blair O'Neill, vice president-elect of the Canadian Cardiovascular Society. "I would say the expertise in Canadian centres is quite high and the type of procedures they do are definitely leading edge," said the Edmonton cardiologist.


The one problem area is in treatment of some heart-rhythm problems. The waits for so-called "ablations" to fix atrial fibrillation -- an abnormal rhythm in the heart's upper chamber -- can stretch to over a year in some parts of the country, said Dr. O'Neill, though the condition is generally not life threatening.

In fact, 99% of people with the problem can be treated easily with inexpensive drugs, and the ablation procedure itself has never been proven effective in a randomized controlled trial, said Dr. Colin Rose, a Montreal cardiologist.

All that being said, heart doctors say there have always been Canadians who, like Mr. Williams, are rich enough that they can choose to get care in the United States at their own expense.

"Having sophisticated, wealthy patients pick the places they want to go is not a new thing," said Dr. Stone. "Someone who has enough money can get on a plane and go anywhere they want for health care."

[Documad]

i don't really see what's hilarious or embarrassing about it. the US system works better than canada's if you have money, worse if you don't. when canada's unwashed masses come spilling across the border to avail themselves of our emergency rooms i'll blush for you

Ha ha.

[QueenAdrock]

QueenAdrock has posted about loving the canadian system soo much she doesn't even want to return to the country until "we get our healthcare shit figured out" (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=1703336&postcount=18). (I seriously wouldn't know whether to laugh in their face, or weep for completely failing as a parent if either of my kids ever said something as ridiculous to me)

Didn't you tell me two months ago "not to flatter myself" by even thinking you'd spend more than two seconds of your time on me? So why bring me up?

Either way, I love my free health care here. I threw out my back on Saturday, got seen by a doctor on Sunday, was able to walk by Monday, and will be getting x-rays for the underlying problem once I find the time in my schedule to go in and get it. Know how much it cost me? Zilch. Know how much the same injury cost me in the States? $500. And the therapy took over 3 months, this will only take me about 3 weeks.

For someone who applauds the idea of "experience" so much, it's pretty ironic that you think it's laughable for me to compare my experiences under two different systems, whereas you base your opinion simply on a flimsy newspaper article you read about one man. Who's the elitist now? :rolleyes:

The US has amazing healthcare, it's the U.S. healthcare insurance that is cruel and destructive.
What we need is health insurance reform.

I agree. If you read the post you linked to, I never bashed on the health care, I bashed on the insurance system. You're arguing semantics -- read the post IN-CONTEXT. I surely hope this argument hasn't been because of a simple word mix-up. I've had fabulous care here, I've had fabulous care in the States. However, I don't like paying for copays, deductibles, and premiums, and I don't like seeing people not have access to that sort of care. The only thing I've ever argued is money, how much I've had to pay in the States, and debunking the ideas that Canadian care takes so long since America has taken just as long, if not longer due to dealing with insurance issues (i.e. debunking an argument for people that don't want to adopt a Canadian-style government-run insurance plan). If I can pay the same amount of taxes in Canada as I do in the US AND get free health insurance, then I don't know why the US can't shuffle around their priorities and get free coverage for Americans.

So yes, I agree, we need health insurance reform.

[yeahwho]

The odd thing about this argument is that many people leave the US for health care in foreign Countries too, especially the rich and famous. What does that say about anything?

[RobMoney$]

yes rob, that is correct. (y)


now as a canuck, let me provide some insight into this story.

for the longest time newfoundland & labrador was one of the poorest provinces in our canadian federation - the american equivalent would probably be mississippi in your american union. it has long been deemed a "have not" province, until just recently, in the last few years or so, with oil revenues turning the tide. now over the years and decades, newfoundland & labrador's provincial governments have done a very shit job in strengthening its hospitals, health centres, clinics et al. it's been due to neglect, incompetence, and also extremely limited revenue. another crucial aspect to this is that newfoundland & labrador has been battling the canadian federal government for years, for greater revenue sharing or transfer payments.

now, every canadian in every province is guaranteed health insurance and access to a doctor. in this specific case with premier danny williams, it's been claimed that the procedure he requires is not available in the province of newfoundland & labrador, so williams is taking that as a que to fly south for his procedure. however, williams could very easily just travel to neighbouring provinces, such as quebec, for the procedure. i'm also skeptical that the procedure williams requires is not available in newfoundland & labrador.

finally, what's most important here is that not only is premier danny williams extremely wealthy, but he's also had a history of fighting with the federal government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Williams_(politician)#Controversies), and many suspect that he's attempting to embarrass the federal government by flying south for this procedure. regardless what he's done has likely not only pissed his constituents in his home province, but also millions of canadians across the country.


So I guess the people of Mississippi (or any area with corrupt and inefficient political mechanisms) should expect a poor level of healthcare under this canadian model that the pro-reformers are touting?

That's what I thought, allowing "Government" to run an industry is just asking it to be riddled with inefficiency and corruption.
You've illustrated perfectly why the US should NOT be using this system.


Also, you realize eveyone has access to healthcare in the US, right?
You don't need to be "rich" to recieve some of the best care available anywhere in the world.

[RobMoney$]

i don't really see what's hilarious or embarrassing about it. the US system works better than canada's if you have money, worse if you don't. when canada's unwashed masses come spilling across the border to avail themselves of our emergency rooms i'll blush for you


Start blushing then...


http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/919578.html


Kaleida goes north of the border for patients
Buffalo-based hospital system starts advertising campaign in Canada

The ads encourage patients to fast-track their medical care to Kaleida Health, the area's largest hospital system.

But you won't find the billboards and television, radio and newspaper spots in Western New York.

Instead, Kaleida Health is testing the market across the border in Canada.

Canadian patients have sought medical care in the United States over the years, mainly for a handful of treatments and tests in short supply or unavailable in their country, leading to long wait times for some services there.

Kaleida Health is one of the first American organizations actively seeking patients in Canada in response to a rise in cross-border traffic for medical care.

It began the marketing campaign late last year in southern Ontario in hopes of picking up a larger share of the business.

"We're not trying to be predatory. We want to be seen as a resource for those services that are scarce or aren't being provided," said Donald Boyd, senior vice president of business development.

The interest arose in the last three years as the Ontario health system sent more patients to Kaleida's Millard Fillmore Hospital for stroke treatment. The transfers led to a formal arrangement that has resulted in the transfer of 15 to 20 patients a month over the the last two years, Boyd said.

In addition to urgent cases, the Ontario health system received 12,350 applications to cover the cost of out-of-country care in 2008, more than double the applications in 2004-05, according to the provincial Ministry of Health.


Either way, I say good for him. I'm glad the Premier is going to be getting the care that he needs.

Now imagine we had the same system.
Where would he go?

[yeahwho]

Grasping. At. Straws. If the people of Canada were given a vote today on which health care system to choose do you actually think they would give up their system and implement the US system? Of course they wouldn't.


Medical services aimed at Ontarians via billboard (http://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2300227)



"I think we have one of the best systems in the world," Dennis said. "Having an overflow service available across the border is by no means a condemnation of our health system here."

Niagara Falls MPP Kim Craitor agrees.

"I think over on the American side, because people have to pay and there are people who cannot afford to pay, that they're going out and trying to find new customers to generate money in order to keep their system going," said Craitor.

"They're looking for rich people here who they think will jump the queue and go ahead of somebody else and pay for it.

"And we're right next door." Welland MPP Peter Kormos, a New Democratic Party representative, views the campaign as an indictment of Ontario's health-care system and he lays blame at the feet of the Liberal government.

"Frustrated people who have the money are prepared to purchase health care in the American health-care system," Kormos said.

"That's not how we address the problem of under-funding."

Boyd said the campaign, which directs people to go to the health care-provider's website, is designed to give patients in Canada information.

Since the campaign began, Kaleida Health has received more than 5,000 calls from Canadians.

"It's not a sales pitch," Boyd said. "You can go to it to gather information you need to make a decision."

Kormos, however, said the aggressive ad campaign is an affront to believers in public health care.

"These billboards don't suggest that they're going to offer pro bono health care to those who can't afford it. These are ads are directed specifically at people who have got the cash ready to lay it on the counter in advance." -with files from QMI Agency

[saz]

So I guess the people of Mississippi (or any area with corrupt and inefficient political mechanisms) should expect a poor level of healthcare under this canadian model that the pro-reformers are touting?

That's what I thought, allowing "Government" to run an industry is just asking it to be riddled with inefficiency and corruption.
You've illustrated perfectly why the US should NOT be using this system.


Also, you realize eveyone has access to healthcare in the US, right?
You don't need to be "rich" to recieve some of the best care available anywhere in the world.

no, i don't know anything about health services in mississippi. i was just comparing the prior condition and poor economic condition of newfoundland & labrador to mississippi, as an example of how poor the province once was. now they're rolling in dough, due partially to oil revenue.

no, i haven't proved anything that illustrates the point you're trying to make. you obviously completely ignored the article i posted, as you're also competely ignoring the fact my life experiences with public health insurance have been fantastic, as well my family's life experiences with public health insurance. i had a family member who had very serious surgery a few years back, and we didn't have to pay a dime. but if we were american, we probably would have had to put our homes up in order to afford the costs. everyone here is covered and receives treatment. no denials, no co-pays, deductables and pre-existing conditions. also, the us has already been using this system for decades, as medicare, medicaid and the department of veterans affairs are extremely popular.

i'm aware that the us has great hospitals, health clinics, doctors, surgeons etc. however it's the private insurance industry which is completely corrupt, ammoral and despicable, as you just previously pointed out in an earlier post. and i'm not aware of any other country that dumps patients on skid row (http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local&id=5588413).

[saz]

16K posts...sounds like you may be the one who needs to go away and check out the real world....

this isn't ideology, it's being a dick.

[Echewta]

This thread goes to show you how complicated healthcare is and how many different topics that need to be addressed individually.

My doctors next avaialble appoint for a phsycial is two months away so in the meantime, I'm going to drive to Canada to get cheaper prescription drugs (and check out a hockey game), fly to Asia to get my breast enhanced on the cheap, see my Mexican dentist, and be back in time to draw my blood here to make sure I'm ok. I'm sure my prostate will have a problem at my age.