Soldier allegedly waterboarded 4 year old daughter over failure to recite alphabet

[kaiser soze]

Fucking Disgusting, this monster is not a soldier, veteran, or human being - sad to say it appears he is a victim of severe PTSD.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1249191/Soldier-father-accused-waterboarding-daughter-4-recite-alphabet.html

A soldier waterboarded his four-year-old daughter because she was unable to recite her alphabet.

Joshua Tabor admitted to police he had used the CIA torture technique because he was so angry.

As his daughter 'squirmed' to get away, Tabor said he submerged her face three or four times until the water was lapping around her forehead and jawline.

Tabor, 27, who had won custody of his daughter only four weeks earlier, admitted choosing the punishment because the girl was terrified of water.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1249191/Soldier-father-accused-waterboarding-daughter-4-recite-alphabet.html#ixzz0euavua0l


How many more will suffer here for the wars they fight there?

[RobMoney$]

I'm confused on what point you're attempting to make?

One minute you're calling the guy a monster,
and the next you're presenting us with an explanation for the act as he suffers from a mental illness,
and the next sentance you seem like you're making a protest against the war for doing this to him?

I'm not saying I disagree with any of these, but you're all over the place here.
What is it you're trying to say?

[kaiser soze]

I guess you're not as confused as you think fuckface

This guy is a monster for torturing his daughter, I know you agree with this

This guy is more than likely a victim of PTSD as well- we are seeing increased suicides, murders, and assaults from our soldiers returning from war.

He deserves to go to jail, lose custody, but also deserves treatment - where did he learn to waterboard...hmmm. HE might need some serious debriefing.

military/veteran mental health is a fucking cesspool right now.

I was just opening the waterboarding discussion again.

[RobMoney$]

This isn't really a story about waterboarding though. It's broader than just that.
It's a story about child abuse.
And I, for one am not really comfortable with using a story about child abuse to strengthen you political agenda on waterboarding.

BTW, there's nothing in that story to suggest the father was dealing with, or had been diagnosed with PTSD.
You're making a lot of assumptions here, Kaiser.
It's completely irresponsible.

If he does in fact suffer from PTSD, or as I suspect was a victim of child abuse himself, we should have pity on him and what he's done to his family, not villify him.

[kaiser soze]

This is a story about waterboarding rob - the guy WATERBOARDED his child.

Now, how many people do that? It is not a common occurrence amongst child abusers last I checked.

we can talk child abuse
we can talk child abuse by people in uniform
we can talk child abuse in the form of torture used by people in uniform
we can talk the mental health issues affecting our soldiers and their families and friends

This is about what is waterboarding (a college prank eh?), what is happening to our soldiers and their families, and how to handle our soldiers (and other people in uniform) committing heinous crimes

as you've said, don't blame the messenger

it is very political, many conservatives believe waterboarding isn't much of anything, so yes I'm curious what people think

[RobMoney$]

We see the story completely different then.
There's no way to diagnose exactly what this guy suffers from or why he did what he did.


I happen to be good friends with someone who returned home from serving two years in the middle of Bahgdad and he's the most loving father you'd ever want to meet.
Just because someone served time in Iraq or Afghanistahn doesn't automatically mean they are going to suffer PTSD.

[kaiser soze]

Well that's to be expected of you not being able to understand what I or many others bring up on these boards, I am not surprised - I tried to open the discussion and explain my position - if you're having difficulties I am not sorry.

Now, just because your friend is a loving father does not mean that certain people who serve in war are susceptible to mental health issues. I'm gonna guess you are a loving father but does that mean you were a great husband?

I am not saying that people who serve will automatically suffer PTSD - but with the research I have done on PTSD ( I am a vet and psych student ). It would be the politically correct way to say that this guy suffers from it. Now he could be a fucking asshole and likes to abuse his child - but seeing that he won custody I like to give him the benefit of the doubt and attribute his learned "technique" to being unable to decipher the enemy from his own flesh and blood (ie: shellshock).

now seeing that you are quick to defend heinous assholes in uniform, what are your thoughts with this guy?

[valvano]

so if the guy beat his kid with a baseball bat, then it would be a story about the corruption via MLB??

[kaiser soze]

right valvano - just like that!

do you want a cookie now?

proves my point - those on the right just don't see how heinous this is on so many levels

[Dorothy Wood]

well...I kinda don't get this thread either. I see where you're going with it, but I don't see how it's about waterboarding.

soldiers learn about waterboarding because in training they learn about all kinds of torture...because it's important information to know if you're in combat. right? I thought soldiers even practiced withstanding it in order to be prepared if they're captured and subject to torture.

from the article: During a police interview Tabor allegedly admitted grabbing his daughter, placing her on the kitchen counter and submerging her face into a bowl of water.


now, that's not textbook waterboarding at all. it's just plain child abuse.

I think it's an unfortunate, yet isolated incident. Yes, the war is destroying people's lives every day, but I don't see how the article is political. It doesn't say anything about this soldier's background or if he was specifically trained in torture methods...where he even was stationed or for how long.

I find the article to be sensational journalism at best.

sorry man.

[RobMoney$]

proves my point - those on the right just don't see how heinous this is on so many levels

This was my question from the begining.
What exactly is your point?

You took a hop, skip, and a jump to this being directly related to a protest against the war and waterboarding.

I just don't buy that.

It's likely this guy would have been just as abusive if he had never served a day in the military. That's just where he learned this technique.
He probably used waterboarding because he's been told that it's not as physically abusive as it is mentally abusive.
So in his mind he was reprimanding his daughter without being "violent".
I'm assuming a lot here and have absolutely zero evidence to support this, but I can see someone having this train of thought.


Now I'm not a psych student, but I do have family members who have been diagnosed with PTSD, and my limited understanding of it is that
PTSD carries a broad spectrum.
Some people become extremely depressed, some become violent, some others self medicate or become self-abusers (alcoholic & drug abuse), some women become extremely promiscuous...everyone is different.

IMO, psychologists seem to want to apply it to everything and everyone because it is such a broad diagnosis.

War Vet? PTSD
Victim of a rape? PTSD
Survived an Auto accident? PTSD
None of the girls liked you when you were a teenager? PTSD

It's applied to every issue they see.

[kaiser soze]

actually waterboarding has many different techniques or styles. So there is specific no "textbook" waterboarding out there.

It is ok for me to post this for a myriad of reasons

1) I am a veteran who holds ALL soldiers to a higher set of standards than some of their commanding officers

2) I am against the wars

3) I am against torture

4) I am against child abuse

5) I believe our soldiers are suffering from post war traumas

6) This is a soldier who waterboarded his child - think about it - who usually gets the waterboarding? Who are known to be the waterboarders as of late?

[kaiser soze]

This was my question from the begining.
What exactly is your point?

You took a hop, skip, and a jump to this being directly related to a protest against the war and waterboarding.

I just don't buy that.

It's likely this guy would have been just as abusive if he had never served a day in the military. That's just where he learned this technique.
He probably used waterboarding because he's been told that it's not as physically abusive as it is mentally abusive.
So in his mind he was reprimanding his daughter without being "violent".
I'm assuming a lot here and have absolutely zero evidence to support this, but I can see someone having this train of thought.


Now I'm not a psych student, but I do have family members who have been diagnosed with PTSD, and my limited understanding of it is that
PTSD carries a broad spectrum.
Some people become extremely depressed, some become violent, some others self medicate or become self-abusers (alcoholic & drug abuse), some women become extremely promiscuous...everyone is different.

IMO, psychologists seem to want to apply it to everything and everyone because it is such a broad diagnosis.

War Vet? PTSD
Victim of a rape? PTSD
Survived an Auto accident? PTSD
None of the girls liked you when you were a teenager? PTSD

It's applied to every issue they see.

Yes many people suffer from PTSD, I am not an idiot to know that. And I am sure most if not all people know someone who suffer from some form of it.

Many outside of the military spectrum suffer from PTSD but none execute specific torture techniques such as waterboarding outside of a military context (unless you know something I don't). So yes - I am bringing this up because it is waterboarding, it is waterboarding being used on a civilian, it is waterboarding being used on a civilian child of a soldier who served in the middle east.

So you're saying I shouldn't assume this guy is suffering from PTSD in the same sentence that you are saying it could be likely that he is naturally abusive? Telling me not to assume while assuming yourself. Ok...fair argument I guess :rolleyes:

[Dorothy Wood]

well, I figured waterboarding was pretty much what I've read it was, putting someone on a declining board and pouring water on his/her face.

and the article shows a picture of that type of waterboarding.


I'm just saying...all the articles in the sidebar are about celebrities and scandal. This is a tabloid article, devoid of solid information.

I agree with what you're trying to say, I just don't think this article means anything. Children are abused every day in this country. My dad never served in any wars, but he did stuff like pin me down in the basement, interrogating me about my mom's life, and forcing me to listen to angry answering machine messages she'd left for him so I would turn against her during their divorce. I was 6 years old. I managed to scream my head off and escape most times. Who knows what else he did that I either don't remember or blocked out. He never physically harmed me, but he was a total lunatic.


The soldier is a fucked up individual, maybe the war made him even more fucked up...but this story isn't a solid case against waterboarding by any means.

If there's a rash of PSTD cases waterboarding their own kids, then, by all means, make a stink about it. I just don't think that him being a soldier and just knowing about waterboarding made him commit the act. because pretty much everyone knows what it is and how to do it by now. and dunking someone's head in water to get information or punish them is in all kinds of movies.


It's a sad story, it's terrible. torture is terrible, the war is TERRIBLE! I agree on all these points. I just can't get behind a tabloid article with such little information. I just don't get how it illustrates your point.

[RobMoney$]

I'm in no way trying to infer that you're an idiot here, and I'm not attacking you, so stop being soo defensive.

I was just telling you my about my limited knowledge and experience and my opinions about PTSD.

As for the waterboarding, I guess my main point is that if he didn't use the waterboarding technique (that he may or may not have learned from his military training, there is no evidence at this point that says he did learn it there) then he would have most likely abused his child another way, like making her stand in the corner while being forced to hold a bible in each hand with her arms extended straight out for 30mins., and forcing her to start over if her arm dropped more than 2 inches, all while blowing smoke in her face and telling her what a worthless, stupid bastard she was.

Or perhaps hanging her by her thumbs until she could recite the alphabet perfectly?

[kaiser soze]

actually I'm not all OMG, barf and pee like some assholes are over overrated rappers...

I just wanted to point out this unique case and how it could very well be connected to service related mental trauma and also bring up the fact again that waterboarding is a heinous act contrary to what some (including ex-presidents) have said.

but obviously the waterboarding thing isn't what concerns you - so it appears

Like I said our soldiers are returning with abusive behaviors, suicides, and murders and this falls into that.

then he would have most likely abused his child another way, like making her stand in the corner while being forced to hold a bible in each hand with her arms extended straight out for 30mins., and forcing her to start over if her arm dropped more than 2 inches, all while blowing smoke in her face and telling her what a worthless, stupid bastard she was.

Or perhaps hanging her by her thumbs until she could recite the alphabet perfectly?

oh the "what if" or the "he could have" argument - I swear you've used this against others in this forum before - the fact is he WATERBOARDED his child - he didn't use a bible or hang her from her thumbs

so please discuss the topic at hand - soldiers returning from the middle east waterboarding their children

[RobMoney$]

This thread is fail.

[kaiser soze]

ok valvano

[ms.peachy]

This isn't really a story about waterboarding though. It's broader than just that.
It's a story about child abuse.
And I, for one am not really comfortable with using a story about child abuse to strengthen you political agenda on waterboarding.

BTW, there's nothing in that story to suggest the father was dealing with, or had been diagnosed with PTSD.
You're making a lot of assumptions here, Kaiser.
It's completely irresponsible.

If he does in fact suffer from PTSD, or as I suspect was a victim of child abuse himself, we should have pity on him and what he's done to his family, not villify him.

This.

I think you're waaaaaay overreaching here, kaiser.

I get that you don't think so, but I'm willing to wager that's the general consensus.

[kaiser soze]

oh well

it still disgusts me, it is still a crime, it is still a practice that has been marginalized by a population of people with specific political beliefs and it is still used as a torture...ehem I mean enhanced interrogation practice.

I guess I shouldn't be concerned - it's the new spanking!

[Dorothy Wood]

dude, the point is, this is an isolated incident.

soldiers also learn to use deadly force when necessary, and some of those soldiers suffering from PTSD occasionally use that against innocent americans when they come home.

it's an awful thing, but acting like it's some kind of epidemic doesn't make any sense.

[Lyman Zerga]

5) I believe our soldiers are suffering from post war traumas



yeah, some are ticking bombs

no wonder, now that they see/do things humans shouldnt see/do

[kaiser soze]

Maybe your not paying the kind of attention I am. As a Gulf Veteran myself I am quite concerned at the levels of suicides and crimes committed by our returning soldiers. Is it due to the stresses war or the lowered quality of character the military is recruiting is debatable.

I don't care if it's an isolated incident - if people who supported waterboarding as an "interrogation" technique find this appalling, then they should reconsider their position.

[Dorothy Wood]

Maybe your not paying the kind of attention I am. As a Gulf Veteran myself I am quite concerned at the levels of suicides and crimes committed by our returning soldiers. Is it due to the stresses war or the lowered quality of character the military is recruiting is debatable.

I don't care if it's an isolated incident - if people who supported waterboarding as an "interrogation" technique find this appalling, then they should reconsider their position.


Yes, PTSD is a very big concern and is one of a million terrible results of war, I'm not debating that. I don't think anyone is.

I just don't think that this incident is relevant to the case against waterboarding because I don't think that this soldier's knowledge of waterboarding is what caused him to abuse his child. plain and simple.

[RobMoney$]

If this poor fellow had just never learned to waterboard, I'm sure none of this would ever have happened.

Damn Dogs of War...

[Burnout18]

Is it due to the stresses war or the lowered quality of character the military is recruiting is debatable.



Thats actually a very interesting point and i never thought of that myself.