UK style socialized medicine is awesome!!

[valvano]

not...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article7039285.ece

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1253438/Mid-Staffordshire-NHS-hospital-routinely-neglected-patients.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-the-real-lessons-of-this-nhs-disaster-1909596.html

[Bob]

i'd be curious to hear what actual UK residents have to say about it

[travesty]

Especially the ones who died there. I bet they'd have a few words about it.
What are you looking for residents to say? That this OK? That it's really not that bad? That it could be worse? Just curious.

[Echewta]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/us-health-care-system-to-get-much-sicker-unless-its-paradoxes-are-resolved/article1479226/

http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/charleston/true-tales-about-healthcare-abroad/Content?oid=1791162

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninsured_in_the_United_States

Consequences
A report from the Institute of Medicine of the National Academies states: "Lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States." [24] A 2009 Harvard study published in the American Journal of Public Health found more than 44,800 excess deaths annually in the United States associated with uninsurance.[25][26] Johns Hopkins University professor Vicente Navarro stated, more broadly, in 2003, "the problem does not end here, with the uninsured. An even larger problem is the underinsured" and "The most credible estimate of the number of people in the United States who have died because of lack of medical care was provided by a study carried out by Harvard Medical School Professors David Himmelstein and Steffie Woolhandler (New England Journal of Medicine 336, no. 11 [1997]). They concluded that almost 100,000 people died in the United States each year because of lack of needed care—three times the number of people who died of AIDS."[27]

Offsetting that, the number of Americans with access to care who are killed by medical errors is estimated from 44,000[28] to hundreds of thousands each year.[29][30][31] A Hearst Newspapers investigation called medical error "far more deadly than inadequate medical insurance."[32]

Moreover, the best predictor of longevity is education; in study after study, money and health insurance "pale in comparison."[33]

A survey released in 2008 found that being uninsured impacts American consumers' health in the following ways: [34]

More of the uninsured chose not to see a doctor when were sick or hurt (53 percent) vs 46 percent of the insured.
Fewer of the uninsured (28 percent) report currently undergoing treatment or participating in a program to help them manage a chronic condition; 37 percent of the insured are receiving such treatment.
21 percent of the uninsured, vs. 16 percent of the insured, believe their overall health is below average for people in their age group.
The costs of treating the uninsured must often be absorbed by providers as charity care, passed on to the insured via cost-shifting and higher health insurance premiums, or paid by taxpayers through higher taxes.[35] On the other hand, the uninsured often subsidize the insured because the uninsured use fewer services[36] and are billed unfairly.[37] 60 Minutes reported, "Hospitals charge uninsured patients two, three, four or more times what an insurance company would pay for the same treatment."[38] On average, per capita health care spending on behalf of the uninsured is a bit more than half that for the insured.[13]

A study published in August 2008 in Health Affairs found that covering all of the uninsured in the US would increase national spending on health care by $122.6 billion, which would represent a 5% increase in health care spending and 0.8% of GDP. The impact on government spending could be higher, depending on the details of the plan used to increase coverage and the extent to which new public coverage crowded out existing private coverage.[39] Massachusetts' law forcing everyone to buy insurance has reportedly caused costs there to increase faster than in the rest of the country.[40]

A study published in the American Journal of Public Health in 2009 found that "[u]ninsurance is associated with mortality. The strength of that association appears similar to that from a study that evaluated data from the mid-1980s, despite changes in medical therapeutics and the demography of the uninsured since that time."[41] The study estimated that lack of insurance is associated with 45,000 deaths annually.[41] This is two and a half times higher than an estimate produced by the Institute of Medicine in 2002.[42] One of the authors characterized the results as "now one dies every 12 minutes."[42]

[Bob]

Especially the ones who died there. I bet they'd have a few words about it.
What are you looking for residents to say? That this OK? That it's really not that bad? That it could be worse? Just curious.

well i don't know, that's why i'd like to hear from them. do they get this kind of shoddy treatment regularly? are they routinely left to rot in soiled sheets? would they prefer a US-style system? etc

[Adam]

le sigh...

Look, NHS has its faults but the british press has even more faults. Really should stop linking our newspapers, they really are the worst in the world. They'd kill a princess to get a story.

Anyway. You'd be hard pressed to find 1 on 10 people here who would go without healthcare just to save on taxes. Personally, if it wasn't for our healthcare my sister would be dead, my mum and dad would of suffered more than I'd want to imagine. We aren't rich, but maybe if we lived in the land of the free we would be and could afford it but then my upbringing taught me to be caring to each other and the society round me has been largely that. So we take the NHS for granted - yes, we complain to but we are British - find a Brit who ain't complaining and you've found a needle in this haystack.

What a lot of Brits don't get is that a lot of americans think socialism is a bad idea. I only really learnt this since Obama took presidency, I thought it would be aim of most countries to have some sort of caring state for its people?

I would love to hear from a brit or any1 who has lived here for a long time that would swap healthcare systems with america.

[ms.peachy]

My experience of it was that is pretty awesome, actually. My local surgery was always busy but even so I could always get an appointment when needed. My maternity care was superb - my area had a community midwife service, so for regular ante-natal visits, I never had to go to the hospital, she would come to me. I only had to go to the hospital for ultrasound and the diabetes tests. Oh, and the birth, but actually if I had wanted a home birth, that was an option I could have chosen. My care in hospital was fine when I had to stay in a few days after the birth for minor complications, no complaints. When DD was not gaining weight 2 weeks after her birth, she had to be readmitted and I was allowed to stay with her, in a private room, and got 3 decent hot meals a day. Follow on care from her health visitor was excellent. When I broke a tooth, I was able to get an emergency dental appointment within 24 hours. I can't think of a single instance where we did not get at minimum satisfactory service; usually good to excellent.

Is it a perfect system? No, it isn't - it is true that some areas of the country are better served than others. But, people in the UK often like to bitch about the NHS because frankly people in the UK like to bitch about pretty much anything given the slightest opportunity, but overall they'd stab your eyes out rather than have as dysfunctional a system as the US has.

[Adam]

^I work with Health Visitors, from what I see from the inside - I doubt many other countries have the ante & postnatal support/care the UK can provide as a minimum. And the midwives, support nurses and health visitors feel its far too little. But they really care about the service.

Also, the NHS is getting better - it has done since Labour took over from what I have seen but there is sooo much waste its unreal. But its hard to change and I doubt anyone knows where to start. The much talked about NHS computer system is a good start, it has over run costs and not been very well managed but I think its a mistake to put it on hold like it currently is. Its a political hot potato that is the death of any government if they touch it, which is a shame.

However, I'm happy to lose pensions, good interest/exchange rates, cheap food and goods before I'd lose the NHS. But I'd rather have it all :o

[Echewta]

sorry, your positive opinions of first hand experiences dont count here.

Newspapers only please.

[Adam]

sorry, your positive opinions of first hand experiences dont count here.

Newspapers only please.

Yeah, kinda killed the thread didn't it. Sorry.

I heard when you go into a British hospital they don't have any medicine, the walls are blood stained and everyone gets MRSA after a minute of breathing the same air. A&E you have to queue for 17 hours.

[HAL 9000]

I have never had any problem with the NHS. They delivered my son, monitor and treat his kidney condition, stitched up my forehead, looked after my dying granddad and cured my friends cancer – all without any noticeable delay, error or issue (actually they lost my wife’s blood sample once, but that’s it).

We also have a private healthcare system which you can use if you don’t want the free one (and I have had some additional healthcare for my son in the private sector). I don’t really understand why a country can’t have both. It is my view that certain things should be available to all in a civilised country – police, fire services, medical care/aid, defence, a legal framework, judicial system, etc.

I have no problem with people who can afford it purchasing additional healthcare, I just want to know that no matter what, there is a satisfactory basic level there. I quite like the idea of imposing healthcare taxes to help pay for it according to health risks caused. Fatty foods, alcohol, cigarettes – you can have em, but they will make you sick so there is a levy to fix you built in to the price. That way there is an incentive to live healthy and if you don’t take it, you pay for your treatment. I realise that most people don't like this level of state intervention but it does not bother me.

[Echewta]

Again, those who have personal experiences, you aren't getting what this thread is about. Valvano is just joking. UK health care is not awesome nor could any type of socialized medicine ever be.

[faz]

I was born there (y)

[RobMoney$]

Again, those who have personal experiences, you aren't getting what this thread is about. Valvano is just joking. UK health care is not awesome nor could any type of socialized medicine ever be.


So valvano's wrong for using this story to further his political agenda.
But isn't attacking him and attempting to minimize the story furthering your political agenda?

If the NHS has inferior or abusive hospice for the elderly, and there's legitimate evidence of neglect in the name of cost-cutting, isn't that relevant to the issue of America adopting an NHS style system?

[yeahwho]

Yes, the US taxpayer provided Medicare and Medicaid (http://www.cms.hhs.gov/) are vastly superior.

[ms.peachy]

So valvano's wrong for using this story to further his political agenda.
But isn't attacking him and attempting to minimize the story furthering your political agenda?

If the NHS has inferior or abusive hospice for the elderly, and there's legitimate evidence of neglect in the name of cost-cutting, isn't that relevant to the issue of America adopting an NHS style system?

I don't see where he's been 'attacked', only that people with firsthand experience of this system (which he does not have) are pointing out that actually, yes, there are things about it that are, erm, awesome.

As I said, it's not perfect, but that does not make this model of health care delivery unworthy of studying. The NHS is a continually modifying system, and socially the UK has not traditionally had the same way of dealing with the elderly population that the US has had (more effort has been put into keeping people in their own homes, rather than in 'retirement communities'; the UK has no Florida) so they are struggling more with adapting to the needs of a swelling, aging population. Again, this does not invalidate the overall model of NHS care.

[DroppinScience]

If the NHS has inferior or abusive hospice for the elderly, and there's legitimate evidence of neglect in the name of cost-cutting, isn't that relevant to the issue of America adopting an NHS style system?

Except they're not.

[RobMoney$]

I don't see where he's been 'attacked', only that people with firsthand experience of this system (which he does not have) are pointing out that actually, yes, there are things about it that are, erm, awesome.

As I said, it's not perfect, but that does not make this model of health care delivery unworthy of studying. The NHS is a continually modifying system, and socially the UK has not traditionally had the same way of dealing with the elderly population that the US has had (more effort has been put into keeping people in their own homes, rather than in 'retirement communities'; the UK has no Florida) so they are struggling more with adapting to the needs of a swelling, aging population. Again, this does not invalidate the overall model of NHS care.


Ok, so Adam, Peachy, and Hal have had nothing but pleasent experiences with England's NHS.

three people.

I'm sure there are millions that share your opinion, but your experience isn't really relevant to this story, unless you've been in an end-of-life hospice in England.

I've lived my entire 38 years of life in the US and have never had anything less than outstanding medical care experiences.
I don't even know anyone who has had a problem with their medical provider, and that includes cancer survivors with no health insurance.
But that's irrelevant to the people who have had a problem with our US system.

[saz]

America adopting an NHS style system?

that will never happen

[travesty]

Wait a minute. HAL did you say that the NHS can cure cancer? That's definitely something we don't have here.

[ms.peachy]

Wait a minute. HAL did you say that the NHS can cure cancer? That's definitely something we don't have here.

I am not sure about all cancers, but with breast cancer I know that if you are in remission beyond five years, you are considered to have been effectively 'cured' (the premise being, the fact that there has been no further development of the disease indicates that treatment has purged the body of cancerous cells). Perhaps this is what HAL means.

[DroppinScience]

I think travesty was being facetious.

They caught the cancer early enough to treat it. They haven't discovered the cure for cancer -- yet.

[ms.peachy]

I'm sure there are millions that share your opinion, but your experience isn't really relevant to this story, unless you've been in an end-of-life hospice in England.

But I don't think valvano's point - to the extent he has one - is that elder care in the NHS is not all it could be so therefore we shouldn't look to their model for elder care; he was trying to paint a broad brushstroke and say "well it just doesn't work, does it." My point - and the one that others are making - is that in fact aspects of it work extremely well, and so, the US would do well to look at why that is and how that can be emulated.

[HAL 9000]

Wait a minute. HAL did you say that the NHS can cure cancer? That's definitely something we don't have here.

Well, she didnt die, is what I meant. Successfully treated, is more accurate as it was 10 years ago.

[HAL 9000]

Ok, so Adam, Peachy, and Hal have had nothing but pleasent experiences with England's NHS.

three people.

I'm sure there are millions that share your opinion, but your experience isn't really relevant to this story, unless you've been in an end-of-life hospice in England.

I've lived my entire 38 years of life in the US and have never had anything less than outstanding medical care experiences.
I don't even know anyone who has had a problem with their medical provider, and that includes cancer survivors with no health insurance.
But that's irrelevant to the people who have had a problem with our US system.

Our anecdotes are relevant to Bob's question above but you are certainly correct in that they do not, in anyway, represent an accurate view of the whole NHS.

I suspect that the best way to do that is a statistical comparison of survival and secondary infection rates (and even then it will be biased by lifestyle and economic differences). It would also be interesing to see the average spend per person on healthcare, or some other cost breakdown.

[Adam]

Don't america do everything bigger and better than the rest of the world anyway? I'm sure you can do that again

America has a chance to start a brand new healthcare system... NHS came out of the ashes of WWII as a better life for all and Hilary Clinton has been pushing for this since there was last a Democrat in the Whitehouse. Its worth pursuing again because it will be good for the nation, maybe not for the wallets of some but overall good for its people. America are currently smouldering in losing its superpower status, they've pissed off the world in a way that will take time (at least a generation) to heal - do something domestic & good for the nation, something that will have benefits for all. Healthcare seems perfect.

I'm sure if I looked I could find bad healthcare instances from america even with those with insurance, but a minimum standard for all is what its all about, but when you have 60m people as your client list there is gonna be a few who are failed by the system.

If you know a typical British person you'll know they are not patriotic, they don't see a good future, they are pretty much miserable 90% of the year and cynical at any good news. Mention taking the NHS off them or swapping it for a US-style system and the last bit of Britishness comes out and defends it because we know its good for us. Instantly memories come up that its saved someone we know life. Comfort in knowing that it is there, a safety blanket that even if we lose everything else, if then we are injured or sick there is somewhere to go and get care. So surely if us Brits aren't ripping apart our healthcare (outside the press), it must be good enough to adopt in some way?

Yes, bob asked the question and the discussion has gone off subject. The stories are terrible, what do you want us to say? If every good news story was in the news, they'd be no room for bad and we'd all be ignorant at just how shit life is :rolleyes:

[RobMoney$]

True, but we really don't need to hear about the succes stories, we only really need to know about the failures in order to answer the question of whether the system works or not.
And a story about a government run nursing home neglecting dozens of your nations elderly in the name of cost-cutting would certainly qualify as a failure in my book.

[Bob]

True, but we really don't need to hear about the succes stories, we only really need to know about the failures in order to answer the question of whether the system works or not.

i can't say i agree with that. if that were true, then any system with failures would be classified as "not working"

[Planetary]

This is my local hospital, i live in Stafford.

Adam you keep making these wild assumptions about how the NHS will instantly spring memories of life saving heroics, and how deep down all British citizens appreciate the service the NHS provides. 'le sigh', what the fuck does that mean? I find it insulting that, having had more than one bad experience there personally as well as having had a family member die there in poor conditions, you disregard the validity/seriousness of these reports.

By the sounds of it, Sheffield provides relatively sound health care but that's no reason to becomes dismissive or impatient of the reports emerging about this particular hospital. The same goes for ms.peachy as well. It's nice that you've had good experiences with the NHS, but something tells me that had you had bad experiences at this place, you wouldn't be so quick to pass this story off as "bitching at the slightest opportunity".

[Adam]

imho, the system works

le sigh - from Pepe Le Pew. I use it a lot, love cartoons - didn't mean insult. Its because this issue comes up a lot and from what little I know of the American medical care it doesn't compare (overall) - had cause to use it once in 2001 and in the end we left because even as a fully insured tourist, I was feeling iller from my american friends trying to get me to see a doctor (I collapsed from heat-stroke). I was pretty much out of it though and did have pot inside me so I think a little paranoia on all out behalves was coming through... anyway...

^edit: just read that back and I suppose I could of just had a one-off poor experience in a system that isn't broken, but from reports I hear from america, it needs looking at.

Sheffield does have two decent teaching hospitals yes, so maybe I am lucky. I'm sorry you've had bad experiences, I probably should of also say its not perfect and could do with improvements. Maybe I am also bias that I and a lot of other people I know work for the NHS, and they really do care its just that you are constantly working through red tape and breaking down brick walls to get your job done. But it does get done (mostly) which I think is part of the success story of the NHS. So maybe most people I know love the NHS because most people I know have been served well by it. Also most people I know are constant moaners (like me) but mention the NHS and they'll support it but then I suppose they are my peers who will be similar frame of mind as me. And I don't know many people relatively so its no way a scientific opinion of masses.

So yes, its an issue that I am passionate about, its something I believe should be a human right in any civilised society - the right to a ok standard of free healthcare.

If it was a private company it wouldn't be fit for purpose but then I can't see how you can close a hospital down - you can only audit and force improvements on it.

[Planetary]

its something I believe should be a human right in any civilised society - the right to a ok standard of free healthcare.

i agree

[RobMoney$]

i can't say i agree with that. if that were true, then any system with failures would be classified as "not working"


When those "failures" are human beings being neglected or abused,
then YES, it's absolutely not working.

[Adam]

^If the current system is so great then why does it need to be changed? I thought the point you guys was talking about this was because it was failing so many?

[RobMoney$]

I'm not saying the current system is great. Nobody is.

But just because something isn't great doesn't mean it needs to be torn down for something "different".
And that's all Nationalized Healthcare is, something different, because apparently every other country with a similar system has problems too.

This issue has become nothing more than Obama's last ditch effort to do something, anything, to hang his hat on as an accomplishment.
It's just pure desperation at this point.
The guy couldn't even secure an olympics bid by appearing in person to appeal for it.


Healthcare isn't even the top issue IMO in this country, yet Obama and his minstrels are putting on this charade of a "summit" with the republicans.
It's such a waste of time.

[Adam]

What is the top issue? Climate change?

[saz]

unemployment, foreclosures, improving the fortunes of the middle, working and lower classes, regulating wall street and the financial industry, creating a consumer protection agency etc.

[RobMoney$]

How about UNEMPLOYMENT?

When is the Employment Summit?
When are we going to have a National Jobs Expo?

I loved the 60 minutes piece on the Bloom Box (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6228923n&tag=related;photovideo)this past weekend.
It seemed apparent that this guy simply needs more resources so he can build more factories and create commerce.
That whole industry should be exploding right now, the same way computers/operating systems did in the 80's, and Automobiles/assembly lines did in the 40's & 50's, even if it proves 10-20 years down the road to not be efficient, along the way a lot of people will collect paychecks and have jobs.
We have gotten so reliant on others for work. We need to create.

Nationalized Health is about priority #22 on the list, IMO.

If people can even find a job, then they will worry about how they get bent over the rail by healthcare in this country, which by the way, none of the proposed solutions to this seem to inspire anyone or make us feel that they have all the right answers.
Just doing something different for the sake of it and assuming that anything different will be better is pretty arrogant if you ask me.

[Adam]

Didn't you guys vote this dude in with healthcare as his priorities?

Can't he deal with a 22 things at once?

I dunno, Its your domestics, I'm just here bigging up the NHS, I get defensive when its bad-mouthed by what seems to me a worse system.

[RobMoney$]

People voted for Obama for a number of reasons, healthcare being around 5th, at best...

1. He was on the opposite team as Bush.
2. He's the first Black, electable candidate
3. He was advocating ending the war in Iraq (something else he's failed at miserably, just as I predicted)
4. Sarah Palin
5. Health reform



And I was the lone voice on here at the time publicly campaigning against Obama.

[Adam]

Well, he's doing alright from my end of the spectrum. Doesn't seem to act like such a douche towards europe anymore. Plus, lifting ban on stem cell research, gay rights seems to be improving, erm - I'm sure there is others, but three things is better than some do.

Again, I know we have different values but socialism is not a bad thing really (y)

[yeahwho]

People voted for Obama for a number of reasons, healthcare being around 5th, at best...

1. He was on the opposite team as Bush.
2. He's the first Black, electable candidate
3. He was advocating ending the war in Iraq (something else he's failed at miserably, just as I predicted)
4. Sarah Palin
5. Health reform



And I was the lone voice on here at the time publicly campaigning against Obama.

Just reading the above bolsters my respect for President Obama and the sort of lame criticisms laid upon him day in and day out by you and the others on this board, other forums and across the Country.

The President of the United States, Barack Obama, leader of the Free World. That is what you have decided to pounce upon.

Taxes are lower for working families, the market is gaining (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/charts/chartdl.aspx?Symbol=%24INDU) and as promised health care was presented in an open forum of which the republicans were invited to and given an opportunity to contribute.

What was their contribution? What has been the Republicans contribution all along?

I know what their health insurance plan is, it's pretty fucking sweet (http://public-healthcare-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/health_care_for_the_us_congress) compared to those who have limited to 0 coverage.

So yeah I'm pretty proud of our President for not caving in and sticking up for those who need health care. The pressure has been immense, it is an amazing process.

[travesty]

Again, I know we have different values but socialism is not a bad thing really (y)

Wow! Yes we definitely have different values Adam. Enjoy your socialism....you can have it. I prefer otherwise thank you. Even in torubled times I still could not be more thankful that my ancestors left your fucked up country.

Yeahwho I can't believe you would begin to say that healthcare was presented in an open forum "as promised". What a fucking joke and you know it. Even with your nose up Obama's ass you know that so called summit was an out and out charade to buy some small amount of support before ass fucking the US population with this shitty healthcare bill without the common decency of a reach-around. I hope you are getting what you want out of this President while you can because it will be short lived.

[Adam]

hehe, I think when your ancestors left it was because the UK was a superpower, an empire, a control freak of the world. You're became exactly the thing you left for - funny that. You wanted somewhere more free, more equal, more evenly distributed and less taxes. Only thing I think you've kept out of all that is less taxes.

Don't get me wrong, I love america - I wasn't having a go at it, thought seriously several times about moving there but the equality divide between rich and poor is something that is really disappointing for the richest country in the world. So many go without basic healthcare, it just seems wrong. There is that saying "at least you have your health", seems to me that is something your government currently don't protect, they should and it seems they are having a go, right?

I think this thread is getting too close to Godwin's Law now, gonna stop replying before I help make it true ;)

[yeahwho]

Wow! Yes we definitely have different values Adam. Enjoy your socialism....you can have it. I prefer otherwise thank you. Even in torubled times I still could not be more thankful that my ancestors left your fucked up country.

Yeahwho I can't believe you would begin to say that healthcare was presented in an open forum "as promised". What a fucking joke and you know it. Even with your nose up Obama's ass you know that so called summit was an out and out charade to buy some small amount of support before ass fucking the US population with this shitty healthcare bill without the common decency of a reach-around. I hope you are getting what you want out of this President while you can because it will be short lived.

I'll stick with the winners, the losers seem pretty bitter and have not fully realized they've lost. Your hatred of Obama only bolsters my support. I gave the Tea Party the benefit of the doubt, I gave the Republican party the benefit of the doubt and I even gave some of the nutjob's I've read here the benefit of the doubt.

Not anymore, this isn't some sort of bipartisan fight, you have no answers, the republicans have no answers and compromising with folks that only spittle vitriol is not healthy.

So yes, i think the proof is in the ideas that are being presented and I don't really care anymore how angry those opposed to health care feel, they have no option other than pay rising costs and deny those who cannot afford equal care.

Or to put it in short honest terms, you have completely lost my attention with your angry response. I'm sick of it.

[travesty]

Boo hooo. Wittle weahwho got his wittle feewing hurt.

Your hide the suasage game doesn't fly with me. You are trading increases in health insurance for increases in taxes AND increases in health insurance. That makes sense. Your support for the stupid never ceases to amaze me yeahwho. What exactly do you like about this bill? What part of it is going to benefit America? Like I said....enjoy this while you can as eventually we will get someone smart in the White House and you won't know what to do. More than likely we will get some smart Democrats who stop this charade right here and now.

[yeahwho]

Boo hooo. Wittle weahwho got his wittle feewing hurt.

Your hide the suasage game doesn't fly with me. You are trading increases in health insurance for increases in taxes AND increases in health insurance. That makes sense. Your support for the stupid never ceases to amaze me yeahwho. What exactly do you like about this bill? What part of it is going to benefit America? Like I said....enjoy this while you can as eventually we will get someone smart in the White House and you won't know what to do. More than likely we will get some smart Democrats who stop this charade right here and now.

You may think my feelings are hurt and that throwing around abusive language will enter you into a discussion.

All your doing is wasting your time. Because my feelings are not hurt in the slightest (quite the opposite) and we'll not be discussing anything.

So go ahead and get it all out.

[travesty]

Taking your ball and going home huh? That sounds about right.

[yeahwho]

Taking your ball and going home huh? That sounds about right.
I'm not going anywhere, I just don't talk to people who think they're going to come on the internet and call me names, say my head is up someones ass and insult me with obscene language.

Rules of engagement for people who don't live in movies. What I know about this discussion for sure is who I am. I am not that guy who takes well to the idea of belittling abusive behavior.

[travesty]

So why are you still responding to me? You have real issue with getting in the last word dontcha? And I don't see how I'm belittleing you if you "for sure" know who you are. Calling an idiot an idiot is not belittling.

[yeahwho]

So why are you still responding to me? You have real issue with getting in the last word dontcha? And I don't see how I'm belittleing you if you "for sure" know who you are. Calling an idiot an idiot is not belittling.

just for posterity lets quote you.

[saz]

Wow! Yes we definitely have different values Adam. Enjoy your socialism....you can have it.

ditto the marine core, the air force, the army, the navy, the us post office, medicare, medicaid, the port authorities, the police and fire departments, the coast guard, pbs, the national endowement for the arts, the cia, fbi, dia, bridges, roads, highways et al.

[travesty]

Exactly.

[Adam]

Comrade, don't rise to them. You'll have the last laugh once they realise America has been a failed experiment and revolution comes (y)

[Planetary]

Wow! Yes we definitely have different values Adam. Enjoy your socialism....you can have it. I prefer otherwise thank you. Even in torubled times I still could not be more thankful that my ancestors left your fucked up country.

Yeahwho I can't believe you would begin to say that healthcare was presented in an open forum "as promised". What a fucking joke and you know it. Even with your nose up Obama's ass you know that so called summit was an out and out charade to buy some small amount of support before ass fucking the US population with this shitty healthcare bill without the common decency of a reach-around. I hope you are getting what you want out of this President while you can because it will be short lived.

How do you expect to be taken seriously when your contribution is packed full of crudeness and profanity? You sound like an angry little teenager.

[RobMoney$]

From what I saw of the "summit", it was a Democrat rambling on for upwards of 30 mins about some personal story about someone they know who has been wronged by some Insurance company to intelligence in Afghanistahn (I'm not kidding, I actually saw someone talking about Afghanistahn), followed by 5 mins of a Republican being interrupted by the Dems that he was exceeding his time.

Everyone's saying all this wonderful stuff about bipartisanship, but nobody's agreeing. It's just a ploy by the Dems to put the Republicans in a bad position.
Republicans should have just ceded all of their time to Pelosi and I think they would be perceived as having won this whole thing.


But Yeahwho's "proud" of his president.
Fucking spare me, as if you'd EVER be critical of a thing he's done.

[yeahwho]

People voted for Obama for a number of reasons, healthcare being around 5th, at best...

1. He was on the opposite team as Bush.
2. He's the first Black, electable candidate
3. He was advocating ending the war in Iraq (something else he's failed at miserably, just as I predicted)
4. Sarah Palin
5. Health reform



And I was the lone voice on here at the time publicly campaigning against Obama.






But Yeahwho's "proud" of his president.
Fucking spare me, as if you'd EVER be critical of a thing he's done.

I'm so sorry my critical cred isn't as cool as all of those who have speaking points plastered on their bumper-stickers. I am much happier than you are because I actually voted for him. Funny how that works.

The 1964 Civil Rights Act had a filibuster which lasted 57 working days, including 6 Saturdays. There was bitter in-fighting and media Opine throughout both the Welfare and Medicare bills, Social Security you name it.

This whole spin and those who get so wrapped up into it don't seem to realize the fact that currently nothing has changed except their anger level. Intellectually it would be nice to see options rather than the "Obama Fail" mentality.

Once the bill passes, all of this will be forgotten and the bill, just like the Civil Rights Act, Social Security, Medicare, Unemployment benefits and Welfare will be judged on it's own merits. The wholesale dismantling of the above never seems to gain traction. We protected Social Security from a market driven economy that Bush felt would be great. We will survive and we will still pay the majority of our taxes to have a military arm with the most sophisticated bombs.

[yeahwho]

How do you expect to be taken seriously when your contribution is packed full of crudeness and profanity? You sound like an angry little teenager.

I was an incredible juvenile delinquent, I would not talk to people the way some of the posters here talk, nothing but anger. It's unproductive and I'm certainly not finding it funny. Nobody would talk to you, me or anyone in your family like that and expect to not be told to knock it off.

travesty usually contains himself and has a sense of decorum, not trying to paint everything he says as childish, just surprised at the tone on this thread. It's OK to disagree, it isn't OK to use an Ad Hominem attack on the poster rather than the topic.

[travesty]

Was "ad hominem" on your daily vocabulary builder calendar recently or what? Seems to be your favorite line lately. I apologize for getting a little worked up, sometime it gets the better of me. You are right that once this passes we are never going to get rid of it. I think that is why myself and others, want to stop this right here and now. Social security should be a lesson to everyone. Entitlement programs that start out with good intentions and are sold to us with XXX dollars in cost inevtably bloat themselves into these bohemoth programs that have the potential to damn the entire country. We don't need any more of them. You think the Military budget is out of whack, get a load of Social Security.

[yeahwho]

Was "ad hominem" on your daily vocabulary builder calendar recently or what? Seems to be your favorite line lately. I apologize for getting a little worked up, sometime it gets the better of me. You are right that once this passes we are never going to get rid of it. I think that is why myself and others, want to stop this right here and now. Social security should be a lesson to everyone. Entitlement programs that start out with good intentions and are sold to us with XXX dollars in cost inevtably bloat themselves into these bohemoth programs that have the potential to damn the entire country. We don't need any more of them. You think the Military budget is out of whack, get a load of Social Security.

You attack the messenger, you critique my use of the word ""ad hominem (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html)"" then you apologize. Thick. Very Thick.

I think I'll just do us both a favor and I'll put you on ignore.

[travesty]

Not critiquing it at all. I have one of those calendars too and find myself using new words I learn frequently after learning them, that's why I asked. Drives my wife crazy! Just seemed to be getting used a lot, that's all.

[Adam]

haha, you now have a watery form of health care. America turning into a developed nation? looking after some of its less fortunate citizens? I bet some of you are hating this?

Next you'll be building alternatives for getting around when the oil runs out. Then what? Ban on murder by the state?

Is it the end of being free?