Healthcare (Obamacare) Bill Passes House

[Echewta]

The bill, which passed 219 to 212 without a single Republican vote, would make a nearly $1-trillion commitment in taxpayer money over the next decade to help an estimated 32 million uninsured Americans get health coverage.

And it would establish a broad new framework of government regulation to prevent insurance companies from denying coverage and, advocates hope, to begin making healthcare more affordable to most Americans.


But the legislation would dramatically expand federal regulation of healthcare. Federal law would for the first time require insurance companies to cover all Americans, regardless of their health status, and would prohibit insurers from denying coverage to people who become sick.

Individuals would also be required to buy insurance. And large employers would have to provide employees with health benefits or in some cases face penalties.

The bill would open the nation's 45-year-old Medicaid insurance program for the poor to all Americans earning less than 133% of the federal poverty line -- $14,404 for an individual or $29,327 for a family of four.

The government would also create new state-based insurance marketplaces for millions who do not get coverage through work.

Commercial insurers would offer plans in these marketplaces, or exchanges, and be required to provide a minimum set of benefits, including mental health services, maternity care and preventive care.

The most expensive feature is a commitment by the federal government to provide nearly $500 billion in subsidies over the next decade to help millions of low- and moderate-income Americans buy insurance in an exchange.

To pay for their legislation, Democrats approved a new 3.8% tax on investment income for individuals earning more than $200,000 and couples earning more than $250,000. In 2018, people with high-end "Cadillac" health plans would be subject to a new tax on their benefits.

And medical device makers, pharmaceutical companies and insures would be subject to new excise taxes.

The bill would also cut more than $400 billion over the next decade in what Medicare pays to hospitals, nursing homes and insurance companies that provide Medicare Advantage plans, a provision that proponents hope would ultimately help make the system more efficient.

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-na-healthcare-passage22-2010mar22,0,2788293.story?page=2

[kaiser soze]

I guess the teabaggers spitting and insults (http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/31798/) had no influence

:rolleyes:

Well I won't miss Rush Limaugh (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/09/limbaugh-ill-leave-us-if_n_491536.html) - but will he take his Viagra with him?

[Echewta]

Ha, Costa Rica has universal health care.

[RobMoney$]

Maybe we can just open the borders completely and provide health insurance to the world.
Think of how much we could reduce the deficit, if insuring 30M people cuts it by a hundred million or so.
We'll be rolling in money.

Viva La Obama!!

[Burnout18]

i'm just amazed the democrats actually got something accomplished. amazed

[Burnout18]

Tax on tanning salons? Hmmmm sounds like a tax burden to WHITE america, if you ask me! Racist Tax? Yes, No?

[Drederick Tatum]

tanning salons? more likely then it's a CANCER TAX. omg cancer is bad.

[venusvenus123]

healthcare statistics from around the world... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8201711.stm)

[Echewta]

Provide health care for the rest of the world? Opening boarders? I didn't realize this bill was doing that.

[Whatitis]

Yea...it passed......can we get back to working on the economy...please.

[travesty]

The only reason I have to feel good about this is that I was alive to witness the process and I know exactly who hold responsible. So when the day comes that my children ask me what liberty is, I will at least be able to tell them about "the good ole days" before the country was forced into bankruptcy and Chinese servitude by Democratic Party entitlement programs.

On a side note, I am going to start blaming Bush for this. Had he not fucked up so badly this Administration would never be in office. I officially blame Bush for Obama.

[RobMoney$]

Ha, Costa Rica has universal health care.

Ha, you'll soon be getting the same level of healthcare as Costa Rica.

[RobMoney$]

Serious question for anyone who is excited about this bill, can you please tell me why?
I mean how are YOU benefitting?

[cj hood]

better question: who here has read the 400 some page bill?

[Bob]

Serious question for anyone who is excited about this bill, can you please tell me why?
I mean how are YOU benefitting?

some people get excited about the idea of people other than themselves benefiting as well

[RobMoney$]

better question: who here has read the 400 some page bill?

Judging by this Congress' past performance, they themselves didn't even read it.

[Adam]

Serious question for anyone who is excited about this bill, can you please tell me why?
I mean how are YOU benefitting?

So if YOU was MR JONES - I'm not american so it'll have to MR JONES instead of YOU.

MR JONES feels a little unwell, he doesn't have insurance, he goes to the GP and they give him some modest health care and MR JONES feels better goes back to work and pays his taxes feeling happy

If there was no Obamacare
MR JONES feels a little unwell, he doesn't have insurance, he carries on working and starts to feel iller and iller. MR JONES goes to the ER and has to spend some time in hospital at the cost of the TAX PAYER for now as he cannot pay. He misses out on work and his family go looking for government hand outs as the bread winner can't earn anymore. Meanwhile the hospital are spending more money in chasing the bill MR JONES cannot pay costing the TAX PAYER more. The stress causes more time off work. All he ever wanted was to get back to his normal life.

The TAX PAYER is in caps could that could be YOU.

I really don't get why some of you are so against this type of system. Call it socialist if you want but its not a bad thing as trying to explain in another thread, it keeps the country going, drives down the cost of medicine and helps fix many problems before they get worse. Too many fucking shareholders have got into the american system of doing business and running its country. Its all about being as selfish as you can and getting as much money as you can right now rather than seeing any greater good for more than a 24 hour period - that breeds into society and in place people stop caring about those who are on harder times. I say stop caring, they more forget they exist.

I expect to be critted by a blue wall of links now saying how bad UK, Costa Rica and who ever else's health care is. But take a general look as a whole country for the better, don't spin the question to make it seem that their own selfish needs should come first because they'll never fall on bad times. Maybe they won't - but some will and in 20 years time when a new generation is earning money they'll look back at this time when the country grew a little - everyone outside america sees this but there must be something you can't see when looking out rather than looking in.

I say well done america, its still pretty weak from the little I've read about it but its something you'll be thanked for by millions who'll benefit from it in generations to come (y)

[RobMoney$]

some people get excited about the idea of people other than themselves benefiting as well

I realize you're a young guy and this probably isn't going to affect you significantly, taxwise.
But the others who are benefitting are doing it at someone else's expense.
Basically at YOUR expense, if you earn enough.

So, HOORAY for someone else!

[jabumbo]

i kind of like the idea that if i were to lose my job, i'd be able to even get insurance


even with relatively decent healthcare, i still spend ~$250 a month on prescription drugs that are necessary to my life. having healthcare is probably the single most important thing in my life.



after watching nbc nightly news go over some of the major things in this bill, it makes me wonder why anyone is against it. i mean, i've seen lots of people complain about it, but nobody has actually said why.

[RobMoney$]

Because it expands the federal government even further.
Because it forces American citizens to buy a good.
Because it taxes a select group of citizens to pay for another group of citizens.
Because the federal government is now the sole provider of student loans.

[yeahwho]

I guess the teabaggers spitting and insults (http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/31798/) had no influence

:rolleyes:

Well I won't miss Rush Limaugh (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/09/limbaugh-ill-leave-us-if_n_491536.html) - but will he take his Viagra with him?

When is the going away party for Rush Limbaugh happening? He can move to Africa perhaps Kenya. Or some other wonderful land on the map of countries (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/Universal_Health_Care_World_Map.svg) without universal healthcare.

[Bob]

ah fuck it this never goes anywhere

[kaiser soze]

Because it expands the federal government even further. Would that be with ovals? (http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/thu-march-18-2010-gary-locke)

[Documad]

better question: who here has read the 400 some page bill?
I am going to try to read it if I can find the damn thing in a decent format. I don't think it's all in one bill. I wonder if I have to read the other bill too and wait to see what the senate passes. I'm confused by the whole thing. If I have to read more than one document at a time it will fuck with my head.

[b i o n i c]

i listened to this, i wonder what some of you guys who have strong views think about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs

Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine

[Burnout18]

ah fuck it this never goes anywhere

atta boy, i spent 15 minutes typing how i really felt, had the same thought you did, deleted what i had written and just typed in the tanning salon tax thing.

[Burnout18]

Because it expands the federal government even further.
Because it forces American citizens to buy a good.
Because it taxes a select group of citizens to pay for another group of citizens.
Because the federal government is now the sole provider of student loans.

not knocking you or your views, but i can honestly say nothing there bothers me to the point where i would be against obamacare.

I mean my loans are already under the federal govt, the take from the poor give to rich thing doesnt devastate me because id rather my tax money goes to public healthcare then lets say gee i dunno funding the mess in iraq.

[RobMoney$]

Because it will not only add to the Budget, but it will add to the Debt that is already at an unacceptable level.
Because new taxes = less revenue = weaker economy = less jobs.
Because people will change their behavior to get a handout. And that is also not good for the economy.
Because if you thought the GOP were uncooperative before, you ain't seen NOTHING!
Because there's no telling where and how this is going to expand.

Obama and the Dems are in control right now, they're the ones who created this bill with their vision for it.
But it won't be long until the GOP is back in power.
Ever wonder what direction they might like to take Government controlled medicine?
Picture if you will for a moment, guys like W and Dick Cheney having control over how medicine is applied in this country.

Am I reaching anyone yet?

[jabumbo]

Picture if you will for a moment, guys like W and Dick Cheney having control over how medicine is applied in this country.


well after roughly 2 and a half years of having my own healthcare, my care has not improved and everything costs me almost double what it did when i started?

[DroppinScience]

Serious question for anyone who is excited about this bill, can you please tell me why?
I mean how are YOU benefitting?

Well, here's ten immediate benefits of the bill...

http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/what-you-get-when-hcr-passes

Oh yeah and Rob, paragraphs are your friend. You don't need to write one sentence per line.

[DroppinScience]

Ha, Costa Rica has universal health care.

True, but Costa Rica doesn't have a black president...

[RobMoney$]

Well, here's ten immediate benefits of the bill...

http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/what-you-get-when-hcr-passes.

As someone who is not a US citizen, or even residing in the US, this does nothing to benefit you in particular.
I'm aware of what the bulletpoints of the bill are though. Thanks.

Oh yeah and Rob, paragraphs are your friend. You don't need to write one sentence per line.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything other than the elitist snob in you just having to come out, but I've been writing in that format for a while.
I do it because it's easier for the folks with old monitors whom the screen is too wide.
It helps avoid having to scroll L to R to read.

It's not because I'm too ignorant to form a paragraph, but thx for the insuation, snob.

[travesty]

I say well done america, its still pretty weak from the little I've read about it but its something you'll be thanked for by millions who'll benefit from it in generations to come (y)

But the millions who benefit from it will never thank the Hundred Million or so who will be getting fucked on their behalf. It never happens. They just want more and more and more.

And to add to Rob's list of reason why I oppose this bill;

- It does not reduce the cost of healthcare for all Americans, instead it increases the cost of healthcare for a lot of Americans
- I don't trust the financial estimates of this program and history has proven that these estimates will be grossly understated once implemented.
- I don't trust the US Federal government to run the smallest modicum of my healthcare....period. Do You?
- We do NOT have the money for these new programs. Period.
- The manner in which this legislation was drafted, bartered for and implemented was appalling. It's like a psylocibin mushroom. The hippies love it cause it makes them feel all compassionate and loving to their fellow man but they don't realize they are not thinking clearly and aren't really in control of themselves any more. They don't really mind who is in control as long as it keeps feeling good and they never have to face reality. The rest of us can see that it was all grown out of bull shit and is against the law.

For those of you outside of the US who think that tacking on another $1T entitlement program on to the backs of America's working class is a good idea let me ask you how may of your countrymen actually pay income tax in your country to support all of the Federal Government functions and programs? Here in the US it's a little more than half. Only about 53% of all Americans pay any (http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/30/pf/taxes/who_pays_taxes/index.htm) income tax into the federal government. And those of us who do are getting mighty fucking tired of carrying the load for those who don't just to hear them piss and moan about us not "caring" enough.

[The Notorious LOL]

Ha, you'll soon be getting the same level of healthcare as Costa Rica.

The World Health Organization's ranking
of the world's health systems.

36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America


its a step up!!!!

[RobMoney$]

For those of you outside of the US who think that tacking on another $1T entitlement program on to the backs of America's working class is a good idea let me ask you how may of your countrymen actually pay income tax in your country to support all of the Federal Government functions and programs? Here in the US it's a little more than half. Only about 53% of all Americans pay any (http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/30/pf/taxes/who_pays_taxes/index.htm) income tax into the federal government. And those of us who do are getting mighty fucking tired of carrying the load for those who don't just to hear them piss and moan about us not "caring" enough.


Brings to mind the old story of the Ant and the Grashopper...


The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long,building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed.

The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Be responsible for yourself!
————————————————

MODERN VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving.

CBS, NBC, PBS, CNN, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast.

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?

Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries when they sing, Its Not Easy Being Green"

Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the news stations film the group singing, "We shall overcome" Jesse then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake.

Nancy Pelosi & John Kerry exclaim in an interview with Larry King that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.

Finally, the EEOC drafts the Economic Equity & Anti-Grasshopper Act retroactive to the beginning of the summer.

The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government.

Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of federal judges that Bill Clinton appointed from a list of single parent welfare recipients.

The ant loses the case.

The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it

The ant has disappeared in the snow.

The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident and the house,now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.

[travesty]

Well, here's ten immediate benefits of the bill...

http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/what-you-get-when-hcr-passes

Oh yeah and Rob, paragraphs are your friend. You don't need to write one sentence per line.

Which ONE of those points is going to reduce the cost of healthcare?
Answer NONE! They will all INCREASE the cost of healthcare for everyone.

[RobMoney$]

i listened to this, i wonder what some of you guys who have strong views think about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs

Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine


BTW, This was great.
Thanks for posting it.

[travesty]

The World Health Organization's ranking
of the world's health systems.

36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America


its a step up!!!!

PUH-LEASE.....The WHO? Really?
It is well documented that WHO rankings are skewed on many factors not the least of which is heavy weighting of a formula to determine the "fariness" of who pays for the healthcare. Take it from the leader of WHO as she explains it to you kool aid drinking Michael Moore beleivers;

In 2000, when the report was issued, WHO was run by Gro Harlem Brundtland, a former prime minister of Norway and a socialist. She doesn’t think the results of a health system alone are important. Rather, she wants to know if the system is “fair.” In introducing the WHO report she wrote that while the goal of a health system “is to improve and protect health,” it also has “other intrinsic goals [that] are concerned with fairness in the way people pay for health care.” She is clear about the ideological factors she thinks are important: “Where health and responsiveness are concerned, achieving a high average level is not good enough: the goals of a health system must also include reducing inequalities, in ways that improve the situation of the worst-off. In this report attainment in relation to these goals provides the basis for measuring the performance of health systems.”

Obviously there is some bias in this testing.(n)

[DroppinScience]

Rob,

You're still a fan of Bill Clinton, aren't you? The things you're railing against seem quite similar to what your hero tried to get done in the '90s:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_health_care_plan_of_1993

It was okay in the '90s, but today it's tyranny?

[DroppinScience]

Which ONE of those points is going to reduce the cost of healthcare?
Answer NONE! They will all INCREASE the cost of healthcare for everyone.

I think the better question to ask is if the cost of health care (whether it goes up or not) actually translates into benefits for the people. I don't know about you, but people should get what they pay for. In its present state, Americans weren't getting what they're paying for.

[checkyourprez]

i listened to this, i wonder what some of you guys who have strong views think about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs

Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine

ironic that it was ron who got us in the biggest peace time budget deficit in history (at the time) when you think about it.

[DroppinScience]

Rob,

You're still a fan of Bill Clinton, aren't you? The things you're railing against seem quite similar to what your hero tried to get done in the '90s:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_health_care_plan_of_1993

It was okay in the '90s, but today it's tyranny?

While we're at it, Hillary Clinton (as a candidate for the presidency) offered universal health care as one of her campaign pledges:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20819827/

As I recall, you said you supported her in '08. Again I ask what the problem is...

[Adam]

This forum should be renamed idiot tennis.

Like bob said, it never goes anywhere the loser is whoever gets bored of the rally first.

[venusvenus123]

some people get excited about the idea of people other than themselves benefiting as well

actually, from what i've read, i thought that everyone would be better off, except the very high earners -- £250k+.

but i don't really want to get pulled into a debate on this. i would just like to add that over the 9months that i have been unwell i have had world class care and i am under a top consultant at a London teaching hospital.

i note that none of the naysayers have responded to Adam's Mr Jones story.

[RobMoney$]

I think the better question to ask is if the cost of health care (whether it goes up or not) actually translates into benefits for the people. I don't know about you, but people should get what they pay for. In its present state, Americans weren't getting what they're paying for.


There's one small difference between what Clinton and Hillary tried to do and what Obama is doing.

BILL WAS RUNNING THE COUNTRY IN THE BLACK
Obama, not soo much.


The Gov't could provide it's citizens with mansions and yachts as long as we had a legitimate avenue to pay for it.

[RobMoney$]

This forum should be renamed idiot tennis.

Like bob said, it never goes anywhere the loser is whoever gets bored of the rally first.


Cool, then why don't you just head back to the other forum and go back to talking about strip clubs, whether you plan on being HOT when you get old, or what Dorothy Woods boyfriend ate for dinner last night, or whatever other inane nonsense that's discussed over there.

Your input here barely ever made much sense anyway.

[Sir SkratchaLot]

THIS IS SO UNFAIR!

ME ME ME ME ME!!!!!

I WANT AN OMPAH LOOMPA NOW!!!!!!

[travesty]

I think the better question to ask is if the cost of health care (whether it goes up or not) actually translates into benefits for the people. I don't know about you, but people should get what they pay for. In its present state, Americans weren't getting what they're paying for.

Fair enough. But if we are already saying that we are spending too much for the level of care we get then increasing the benefit while increasing the cost still means we aren't getting what we're paying for. We may be getting more, but we're paying way more too. It doesn't make sense.

That's like saying that paying $40k for a used Yugo is way too expensive BUT paying $50k for a used Yugo with slammin wheels and hopped up stereo system is a good deal? WTF? It's still a Yugo.

[jabumbo]

how about instead of adding a bit of tax for medicare, we just shift all of our school taxes to pay for it instead and let the schools fend for themselves.

i mean, that would mean we don't have to pay any more money to our grubbing government, and we all still can get what we want, right?

[travesty]

i note that none of the naysayers have responded to Adam's Mr Jones story.

I'll bite. Contrary to what reports outside of our country may have you believe here's how it works in Mr. Jones' case in the US prior to Obamacare.

Mr. Jones feels ill and he doesn't have insurance. Why he doesn't have insurance we don't know. Maybe he didn't think he needed it, maybe he would rather drive a used Benz on 22" rims than pay for it, maybe he's too lazy to apply for Medicaid or state funded insurance, maybe he's here illegally or maybe, just maybe, he is one of the only 4% in this country who truly can not get coverage. For the sake of the argument we'll assume the latter.:)

Mr Jones hauls his ass of to one of the thousands of free medical clinics in the US (here's a few (http://www.freeclinics.us/freeclinic.php?&page=3)) OR one of the thousands of already federally funded health centers (http://findahealthcenter.hrsa.gov/)which accept payment based on ability.OR at the very worst he shows up at the local Emergency Room that is obligated to provide care. They give him some modest health care and MR JONES feels better and goes back to work and pays his taxes feeling happy.

So what's the problem? Obviously there are is a much disinformation about the US system outside of this country as there is disinforamtion about other country's system inside the US.

Mr. Jones' case is, of course, too simplistic. Obviously the system above worked for Mr. Jones who only needed some minor treatment but the same system is unlikely to provide extensive chemotherapy for Ms. Jones when her cigarette crusted lungs finally give out. Yes there is a problem that needs to be addressed in the US but for the most part all but about 4% of Americans had access to medical coverage before Obamacare. The major problem in the US has always been cost first and foremost and access second. Obamacare is attempting to address the latter by exacerbating the former. It's an absurd approach to problem solving for a suppossedly intelligent leader.

[Echewta]

Please everyone. Let history judge this bill. Until then, sit tight.

[b i o n i c]

BTW, This was great.
Thanks for posting it.

you're welcome, its worthy of a little discussion - at least a listen, i think. im glad a couple of you listened to it

This forum should be renamed idiot tennis.

Like bob said, it never goes anywhere the loser is whoever gets bored of the rally first.

this is true :eek: comically true

[travesty]

Please everyone. Let history judge this bill. Until then, sit tight.

Wow, that's a great approach chew. When should we pass jusdgement, after the country collapses? We can stand around in our red chinese uniforms and go "man that Obamacare really wasn't such a good idea after all was it"?
Once entitlements like this are in place, they never go away.

[Echewta]

I was just quoting number 43 Travesity. A majority of this country for 8 years agreed with his views when he did things. Those who didn't, he suggested they let history judge. I'm suggesting the same for those who don't like this bill that Obama is pushing.

And if you honestly believe that this country is going to be taken over by any other country and wear their uniforms, you are in a fantasy world and obviously haven't watched Red Dawn.

[travesty]

Gotcha, makes sense now. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

Love that movie....WOLVERINES!!!!!!!!!
I like how the commander of the red forces was Cuban...always makes me giggle.

[Echewta]

Funny thing is I don't know why some of us balk at Cuba's medical system. Fidel has lived forever. I'm pretty sure he will be at my funeral.

[Sir SkratchaLot]

Wow, that's a great approach chew. When should we pass jusdgement, after the country collapses? We can stand around in our red chinese uniforms and go "man that Obamacare really wasn't such a good idea after all was it"?
Once entitlements like this are in place, they never go away.

You're right! This totally fucking communist man! Totally dood. We have to stand up and fight for our freedom! We're losing EVERYTHING man! Next thing you know everyone will be forced to be anally raped by Chinese people! It's a slippery slope you know (no homo, no racist).

[DroppinScience]

Funny thing is I don't know why some of us balk at Cuba's medical system. Fidel has lived forever. I'm pretty sure he will be at my funeral.

Considering Cuba's situation, they manage to do not too badly for health care. Sure there may not always be an abundant amount of food at the supermarket and it's rationed, but they don't seem to die over health care.

[Guy Incognito]

i dont know about idiot tennis, thats a bit strong. the tennis is bit is bang on but there are some good points on here.

Whilst i see the objections about cost and benefits and worries about who will eventually control this i think it has to be tried. In UK in late 40's Britain was in a toatl state after war, skint, no jobs, lots of poverty and the NHS was formed. Its taken a long time and its still not perfect and there are things wrong at every level but i wouldnt even like to put a figure on how many lives have been saved that wouldnt have been the case if there was no nhs.

I think you have to start somewhere and like someone said wait and see what happens, its a journey into the unknown but its got good intentions.

I take it all of you opposing enjoy good standard of healthcare under the current system.

[Guy Incognito]

Cool, then why don't you just head back to the other forum and go back to talking about strip clubs, whether you plan on being HOT when you get old, or what Dorothy Woods boyfriend ate for dinner last night, or whatever other inane nonsense that's discussed over there.

Your input here barely ever made much sense anyway.



Whenever i have commented on this board, you were very respectful and welcoming to this board despite not really agreeing with anything i said but at least you listened and gave sensible well thought out responses and my posts made a lot less sense than adams. i dont think the idiot tennis remark was that serious but i am sure adam can speak for himself

[DroppinScience]

There's one small difference between what Clinton and Hillary tried to do and what Obama is doing.

BILL WAS RUNNING THE COUNTRY IN THE BLACK
Obama, not soo much.


The Gov't could provide it's citizens with mansions and yachts as long as we had a legitimate avenue to pay for it.

In 1993, the economy still wasn't very strong. The economy wouldn't improve until 1994 or so. You didn't even address Hillary Clinton's universal health care proposal as a presidential candidate. The country wasn't in the black then either.

What the hell is with you saying the government can provide yachts? I thought you're some fiscal conservative who is for being "fiscally responsible"?

I know consistency isn't your strong point, so I'll take your response as you were for it before you were against it.

[yeahwho]

Has anyone found out what is required and how you sign up to be on one of the death panels? Now that we have guaranteed health insurance I'm thinking about switching jobs.

[b i o n i c]

has anyone's mind ever been changed on here? anyone ever said they were wrong? i took the idiot tennis to mean people treat politics like a sport and generally support their own side no matter what, minds dont get changed.. there is never any progress

[kaiser soze]

Whenever i have commented on this board, you were very respectful and welcoming to this board despite not really agreeing with anything i said but at least you listened and gave sensible well thought out responses and my posts made a lot less sense than adams. i dont think the idiot tennis remark was that serious but i am sure adam can speak for himself

robmoney is just a fucking asshole, whenever he feels the conversation isn't going his way he'll regress to his typical crude self treating everything others say as inferior (thus the return to your hole comment by him....even though He has participated as well in many of those inane discussions). Don't be surprised from what drivel comes out of his mouth.

But yo, at least he's fucking hiphop

It's funny how the people who held up the FREE IRAQ signs are the same ones holding up the DEATH PANEL signs.....do they have ANY idea how many innocent people are suffering, have or will die and are permanently damaged from that war? Fucking hypocrites.

[Adam]

has anyone's mind ever been changed on here? anyone ever said they were wrong? i took the idiot tennis to mean people treat politics like a sport and generally support their own side no matter what, minds dont get changed.. there is never any progress

Ah, just caught up with this thread and was about to reply but you hit it exactly on the head.

I play this game all the time, I'm calling us all idiots as no will go "oh yeah, I see your point, my view has been skewed since the start and thanks for putting the record straight". It wasn't meaning to offend, sorry.

You see, I know very little of the american health care system and I've only heard bad things about it compared to ours. And ours isn't great but its there and doesn't let you down generally when you need it. So there might be an A&E wait for 3 hours cus you fell over drunk and its an inconvenience but at least I don't have to fill out any forms or claim a rebate or whatever your system is - I just turn up, get rolled eyes by the poor doctors who have to deal with us chumps who can't handle our alcohol and drugs and then they can kick me out after fixing me up (Mr Jones and Me are gonna be big big stars). But I know while I wait, there is people lives being saved by people who care and they've done it to people I care about - the oath these doctors and nurses takes to look after anyone who is in need of their professional assistance without any prejudice is an oath that is worth a higher tax. If Obama has only one term because of this, he'll be in the history books in doing something the US has failed to do for 50 years - he did the right thing for all the right reasons.

Again, this doesn't effect me in anyway. My healthcare hasn't changed but to me it was a Human Rights issue america had to address, there is no reason why one person in this world should be without a minimum standard of healthcare - we look after our own species, its way we grow maaaaaaaaaan.

As for going back to Beastie-free, I will. You forgot to add believing stories about women becoming pregnant after being stabbed with a knife with spunk on but not believing man-made climate change is real

;)

[DroppinScience]

has anyone's mind ever been changed on here? anyone ever said they were wrong? i took the idiot tennis to mean people treat politics like a sport and generally support their own side no matter what, minds dont get changed.. there is never any progress

When it comes to opinions, it is seldom to see anyone's positions have changed... at least through argument and debate. That's fine by me, but what really gets me is those who ignore the facts and refuse to process new information and details as they come up.

I'll give you a big example: valvano. All he wants to do is regurgitate the same right-wing buzzwords and when his claims turn out to be debunked, he turns silent and creates a new thread to talk about another bullshit claim... which then gets debunked again and he ignores it.

If any of my claims get proven wrong when new information surfaces, I will concede the point. I have yet to see this from the other side. Somebody like travesty is quite all right in my book because he is interested in facts and will make concessions once new information surfaces. I can appreciate and respect that.

[Guy Incognito]

robmoney is just a fucking asshole, whenever he feels the conversation isn't going his way he'll regress to his typical crude self treating everything others say as inferior (thus the return to your hole comment by him....even though He has participated as well in many of those inane discussions). Don't be surprised from what drivel comes out of his mouth.

But yo, at least he's fucking hiphop

.

As i said he has always been okay with me despite me really not agreeing with most of his posts but i thought his remarks to adam were a bit hypocritical and over stepped the mark a bit. I mean, robs name is all over BF and i think he's posted in most of the threads he mentioned.

[kaiser soze]

fuck that shit

WE WIN YOU LOSE WHICH MEANS WE ARE ALWAYS RIGHT!!!!

NO MORE PIMPIN' IN THE ACORN OFFICE NOW FUCKERS!!!

:rolleyes:
























yeah I know they closed shop ;)

[kaiser soze]

As i said he has always been okay with me despite me really not agreeing with most of his posts but i thought his remarks to adam were a bit hypocritical and over stepped the mark a bit. I mean, robs name is all over BF and i think he's posted in most of the threads he mentioned.

oh he's ok, an ok asshole.

people got opinions and assholes and sometimes people's opinions are assholes and sometimes their assholes are opinions and sometimes the people are assholes with opinions and maybe opinions with assholes and....

fuck looks like I need some of that good ol' American free mental health care

where's my straight jacket and complimentary lobotomy?

[yeahwho]

. Somebody like travesty is quite all right in my book because he is interested in facts and will make concessions once new information surfaces. I can appreciate and respect that.

That cracks me up, I have travesty on ignore due to his personal attacks on me. Multiple posts of anger and vitriol demanding I answer him and that I had my head up Obamas ass. He's a real charming fellow.

[Guy Incognito]

oh he's ok, an ok asshole.

people got opinions and assholes and sometimes people's opinions are assholes and sometimes their assholes are opinions and sometimes the people are assholes with opinions and maybe opinions with assholes and....

fuck looks like I need some of that good ol' American free mental health care

where's my straight jacket and complimentary lobotomy?

i realise you two have got previous by your sig, thats not my issue. I just wanted to say i thought he was out of line for what he said to adam. If he's an asshole to me i'll tell him but he hasnt been yet.

[yeahwho]

This is how most threads end... scroll down to the last two posts

Yet another "Mistake" by the AGW "Scientists" (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=94149)

I'm still waiting for the correction to my numbers

[yeahwho]

If the Republican Party really wanted to participate all it took was having a set of balls and compromising so some of their concerns could of been addressed (which many of were even without a single vote) but that isn't the Republicans real problem.

The real problem is how to change from this perception of "NO" to one of action and positivity. I do not feel anything other than pure disdain for the lack of participation.

What will the leaders of this party do next? Spittle hatred of Obama and do nothing to help govern, just be poor sports? They could affect change if they did participate. It would be a stronger policy than no governing. Go back to at least small government.

[kaiser soze]

Are opinions turning favorable towards the bill?

nooooo

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-03-23-health-poll-favorable_N.htm

WASHINGTON — Americans by 9 percentage points have a favorable view of the health care overhaul that President Obama signed into law Tuesday, a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll finds, a notable turnaround from surveys before the vote that showed a plurality against it.

By 49%-40% those surveyed say it was "a good thing" rather than a bad one that Congress passed the bill. Half describe their reaction in positive terms, as "enthusiastic" or "pleased," while about four in 10 describe it in negative ways, as "disappointed" or "angry."

Maybe it'll have legs?

[RobMoney$]

I won't bother addressing most of the personal attacks against me in this thread. Don't really care.
I will respond to the "idiot volleyball" comment just to give some clarity.


I took the idiot volleyball comment personally because I consider myself one of the more active people in this forum.
Having someone who isn't as active pass judgement on me like that, I took as an attack.
Or at the least, Adam showing me his Ass a bit, so to speak.
Also, this healthcare bill is the preeminent story.
Most of the Americans here seem to have strong feelings about it, on both sides.
Where does someone not from this country get off making a comment like that in the middle of people expressing how they feel about the preeminent American topic. b
Someone who admittedly doesn't know very much about this bill, or the state of American Healthcare in general because you aren't from this country.
Way out of line IMO.

And Guy Incognito, you're cool with me.
The rule I try to live by around here is I will be friendly and patient with anyone on here as long as you show me the same respect.
Talk trash to me or make a disrespectful comment and I'll return the favor, twice as hard.

[kaiser soze]

The rule I try to live by around here is I will be friendly and patient with anyone on here as long as you show me the same respect.
Talk trash to me or make a disrespectful comment and I'll return the favor, twice as hard.

ok eminem

funny many of us follow the same philosophy

well some of us have yet to stoop to your level...maybe we should make some crude comments about your home/family/children

oooh look at me I'm politically correct rob when I want to be

[yeahwho]

Anyone is a welcome addition to this forum, especially if they have firsthand knowledge of universal health care. Those have been some of the best posts I've read here.

Nobody should restrain from speaking their mind, nor should you feel as if you need to tolerate another posters abusiveness

It's great to hear somebody else besides the 5 or so who have the same predictable ideology.

[kaiser soze]

I feel ya yeahwho - I have dealt with abusive language to the point that someone thought it would be nice to make a crude comment about my house, my home, where I raise my child - someone who has noooo idea how hard I work for my family and home.

and then...when they get a little bit a dishin' it's all tears for fears and shit, fuck that.

Back to news connected to this - Looks like the Brownshirts are coming out - Vandalism has been reported at multiple Democratic Representative offices across the country - a death threat against the daughter of one of the representatives was also reported.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/23/slaughter-threats/

Yesterday, ThinkProgress reported that several Democratic offices around the nation had been vandalized in the days surrounding the House health care vote. Vandals have struck the Tuscon office of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ), the Monroe County Democratic Committee headquarters in upstate New York, Rep. Louise Slaughter’s (D-NY) Niagara Falls office, the Knox County Democratic headquarters in Ohio, and the Sedgwick County Democratic Party headquarters in Wichita, KS. The local Rochester ABC affiliate now has more information on the upstate NY vandalism, including an assassination threat against the children of lawmakers who voted for health reform:

http://www.13wham.com/news/local/story/Health-Care-Reform-Leads-to-Threats/TAZWZcNqz0aapIAGYDut-A.cspx

Rochester/Niagara Falls, N.Y. -- The same day a brick crashed through her Niagara Falls office, Rep. Louise Slaughter (D) says her staff discovered an assassination threat aimed at her family members. The Democratic headquarters in Rochester was also targeted.

and they wonder why some of us thought the guns were a little bit too much.

maybe the Dems should post a sniper outside their office (y)

[RobMoney$]

KAISER'S THE VICTIM!!

If you like, I can simply compile the crap you've hurled at me just in this thread alone as evidence of your failure at life in general, and your agenda against me.
You do more to embaress your wife and child on your own than anything I could ever say.



But seriously, who has discouraged anyone from speaking their mind, Yeahwho?
I submit The Guy's remark as exhibit "A":

Whenever i have commented on this board, you were very respectful and welcoming to this board despite not really agreeing with anything i said but at least you listened and gave sensible well thought out responses and my posts made a lot less sense than adams. i dont think the idiot tennis remark was that serious but i am sure adam can speak for himself

I welcome new voices, regardless of what side of the fence they're on.
What none of us needs though, are insulting comments made by people who are ignorant about an issue that someone is trying to have a dialogue about.

[RobMoney$]

In 1993, the economy still wasn't very strong. The economy wouldn't improve until 1994 or so. You didn't even address Hillary Clinton's universal health care proposal as a presidential candidate. The country wasn't in the black then either.

What the hell is with you saying the government can provide yachts? I thought you're some fiscal conservative who is for being "fiscally responsible"?


Perhaps you should quit trying to put me in some sort of "fiscal conservative" box.
I form my opinions on a topic completely independent of what my political leanings say they should be.
Obama and The Great Bill Clinton are evidence enough that all politicians with a (D) after their name, are not created equal.
Just because I considered myself a Democrat my entire life does not mean I will support every Democrat like some sort of Democratic sheep.
But Yeah, I'd be all for the Government providing Mansions and Yachts and free healthcare, IF WE HAD A FISCALLY VIABLE WAY TO PAY FOR IT.
Why should the Government find a way to spend it?
Give the excess revenue back to the people. Let us buy Mansions and Yachts and Cadillac Healthcare plans!!!


My political opinions, like most people's tend to do, have changed with age.
It's why I look at most of the young, campus liberals here and laugh.
Because I've been there. I was young and idealistic, and thought I had all the answers.
You know what, turns out I wasn't as smart as I thought I was.
When you start to make some real money after you've established yourself in your profession for a number of years, your priorities change.
I started to see the other side of issues and where conservatives were coming from.

I was supportive of providing healthcare the less fortunate.
Still am actually. I never said I was against it.
What I am against is doing it now, and doing it this way.

Yes, Bill Clinton campaigned on the platform of introducing universal healthcare in 1992, but tht wasn't the main reason I supported him.
Mainly, I supported him because I considered myself a good union blue-collar Democrat, and Bill was the most blue-collar guy of the bunch.
Also, the Regan-Bush Republican era needed to be changed. It was just time for a Democrat to be in the White House for a change.
Clinton's first order of business was not to introduce massive spending and entitlement programs, like Obama. The first thing he did was cap the deficit.
IMAGINE THAT!
He focused on fixing GHWB's mess first, something Obama isn't doing.
That went along with the hard truth that we needed to raise taxes and balance the budget.
And you know what, most of America supported that idea.
SHOCKING, isn't it.
He didn't attempt to tackle the universal healthcare issue until later, and even then it was more of Hillary's issue to handle.

Now that brings us to your question about my supporting Hillary in 2008.
Considering the track record of fiscal responsibility demonstrated by her husband's administration, I felt more comfortable with her than a junior senator who had never been responsible for managing a single penny of public money before.
And again, nationalized healthcare was not one of the priorities I had for a candidate.
Iraq and the Economy far outweighed healthcare for me.
Giving away free stuff bought with other people's money is an easy way to gain popularity, but it in no way indicates that you're a good leader.

I hope I answered your question on why supporting the Clintons is so much different than supporting Obama.

[yeahwho]

Nobody should restrain from speaking their mind, nor should you feel as if you need to tolerate another posters abusiveness



But seriously, who has discouraged anyone from speaking their mind, Yeahwho?


How you construe what I said into asking that question I do not know.

[travesty]

has anyone's mind ever been changed on here? anyone ever said they were wrong? i took the idiot tennis to mean people treat politics like a sport and generally support their own side no matter what, minds dont get changed.. there is never any progress

Yes I have done both. I have apologized and I have been swayed. If not, I wouldn't bother coming here to see the other side of the coin. Thanks for recognizing DS.

That cracks me up, I have travesty on ignore due to his personal attacks on me. Multiple posts of anger and vitriol demanding I answer him and that I had my head up Obamas ass. He's a real charming fellow.

Yeahwho just got all wadded up cause he could never logically answer the questions I posed to him so when I told him he argued like a senseless dolt bereft of any ability to string together cohesive sentences explaining his thoughts, or lack thereof, he put me on ignore. Things have been great ever since. Although even though he ignores my posts he still takes the time to bash me. Frustrating those who can only spew factless talking points is another reason I enjoy this board, though without Yeahwho I don't get to do it nearly as often.

[yeahwho]

Yes, Bill Clinton campaigned on the platform of introducing universal healthcare in 1992, but tht wasn't the main reason I supported him.
Mainly, I supported him because I considered myself a good union blue-collar Democrat, and Bill was the most blue-collar guy of the bunch.
Also, the Regan-Bush Republican era needed to be changed. It was just time for a Democrat to be in the White House for a change.
Clinton's first order of business was not to introduce massive spending and entitlement programs, like Obama. The first thing he did was cap the deficit.
IMAGINE THAT!
He focused on fixing GHWB's mess first, something Obama isn't doing.
That went along with the hard truth that we needed to raise taxes and balance the budget.
And you know what, most of America supported that idea.
SHOCKING, isn't it.
He didn't attempt to tackle the universal healthcare issue until later, and even then it was more of Hillary's issue to handle.

You do know that the Boehmer, Gregg and a slew of top republicans were opposed to Obama's idea of a bi-partisan panel to tackle deficit spending (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/21/us/politics/21deficit.html), before this health care reform bill passed?

The deficit spending panel (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/jan-june10/deficit_02-18.html) is now formed and in place now. It's very transparent and easily accessed information. Not to pop any momentum you may be trying to gain supporting the republican way but it looks as if they in fact were against this idea. Like every idea presented by Barack Obama.

So for the record it is not like the current administration is oblivious.

[RobMoney$]

I think it's pretty clear this Adminitration doesn't give a damn about a deficit.
What other explanation is there for their continuing to introduce trillion dollar spending program after trillion dollar spending program.

Interesting that it was the liberals who were jumping up and down about the deficit during the Bush years.
They still are, actually.
Blaming the cost of Iraq and Afghan on Bush, as if Obama has no control over it.
Defense spending has become their crutch for every new entitlement they roll out.

It's as if they have no fear that the economy could ever collapse.
I've never seen anyone as reckless and out of control in this office.

[yeahwho]

They have proven to give a damn about deficit spending. They have a bi-partisan panel as we post here. It's pretty impossible to deny that fact. I have linked you two separate articles speaking of the formation of this panel and here is another link (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1218034120100312?type=marketsNews).

I think it's obvious that Obama does have a clue, check the markets, unemployment, the jobs bill and this deficit panel all just a few actions taken on behalf of Americans everywhere. They're working.

[kaiser soze]

I think I've found the assholes tossing bricks through windows

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXsRH73Cnw8&feature=player_embedded

Despicable, Disgusting, Irrational, Inhumane - These are conservative christian values as of late. They are the REAL Death Panel.

http://www.progressohio.org/page/community/post/daveharding/CXYm

Who was the man "looking for a handout"?

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/03/19/angry-protesters-warp-focus-of-debate.html?sid=101

A demonstrator at a Columbus health-care rally who was chided for looking for a handout "on the wrong end of town" actually is a former nuclear engineer with a doctorate from Cornell University.

[Echewta]

^ Just a few super wackos. Every wacko group on the left and right has them.

[cj hood]

i'd be interested to hear from the Dems that voted no to hear an unbiased opinion on why they voted that way...

rather than the i'm an obama-hater, so this must be wrong...or i'm an obama-loyalist, so it must be right....

cuz i've yet to hear from anyone (pro or con) that does not have an agenda (here or on tv)....

[Sir SkratchaLot]

My political opinions, like most people's tend to do, have changed with age.
It's why I look at most of the young, campus liberals here and laugh.
Because I've been there. I was young and idealistic, and thought I had all the answers.
You know what, turns out I wasn't as smart as I thought I was.
When you start to make some real money after you've established yourself in your profession for a number of years, your priorities change.
I started to see the other side of issues and where conservatives were coming from.

Yeah, this is very common. It's because a lot people are focused on themselves. They think it's cool to have all of these social programs when they're young and not paying much in taxes. But as soon as they have to pay money out of thier own pocket they get all complainy. That is, until one of their loved-ones ends up with their insurance cancelled because they got cancer. THEN they want to complain about health care.

Also, there are plenty of people out there who make plenty of money and still support social programs like education, healthcare, roads, libraries. Usually these people see the benefit in having a society where people are educated, taken care of, and able to get from point A to point B. They are fine with paying more taxes.

It's not "socialist" to think that some things are better left to the government. Rather, it's pluralist. It's a mix of capitalism and socialism. To think that we live a purely capitalist society is ignorant, but more than half of our society thinks we do. It's equally ignorant to think that the U.K. is purely socialist.

But anyway, it's really about capitalism or socialism. Most people can't even define those terms if you ask them. The root of a lot of the disagreement is people who are more concerned about themselves vs. people who feel it's okay to give up some of what they have to help better the whole society. Universal Healthcare isn't obliviating the capitalism in our society. Not by a long shot.

[JimmyTheScumbag]

I have only written one letter to a politician in my lifetime.

That was a letter to Obama a few years ago when he was still a Senator. It was a letter encouraging him to take a run at the title and fix shit, including the health care industry.

I was broke at the time, mainly because I was paying $880 a month for health insurance. I couldn't shop around for insurance because I have a child that had a pre-existing condition.

Blame all the madness on me, and people like me.

Here are ten benefits which come online within six months of the President's signature on the health care bill: (http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/what-you-get-when-hcr-passes)

1. Adult children may remain as dependents on their parents’ policy until their 27th birthday
2. Children under age 19 may not be excluded for pre-existing conditions
3. No more lifetime or annual caps on coverage
4. Free preventative care for all
5. Adults with pre-existing conditions may buy into a national high-risk pool until the exchanges come online. While these will not be cheap, they’re still better than total exclusion and get some benefit from a wider pool of insureds.
6. Small businesses will be entitled to a tax credit for 2009 and 2010, which could be as much as 50% of what they pay for employees’ health insurance.
7. The “donut hole” closes for Medicare patients, making prescription medications more affordable for seniors.
8. Requirement that all insurers must post their balance sheets on the Internet and fully disclose administrative costs, executive compensation packages, and benefit payments.
9. Authorizes early funding of community health centers in all 50 states (Bernie Sanders’ amendment). Community health centers provide primary, dental and vision services to people in the community, based on a sliding scale for payment according to ability to pay.
10. AND no more rescissions. Effective immediately, you can't lose your insurance because you get sick.


5 Overblown Fears About Healthcare Reform (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/5-Overblown-Fears-About-usnews-1662044017.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=)

The federal debt will explode. It might, but not because of healthcare reform. The Congressional Budget Office--which is probably the most reliable, nonpartisan number-crunching outfit in Washington--says the reforms will reduce government deficits by $143 billion through 2019, thanks to new taxes and fees and cost savings in government healthcare programs like Medicare. But opponents of the bill and powerful lobbying groups like the U.S. Chamber of Commerce say otherwise, and they seem to have had a stronger influence on public opinion than CBO's methodical analysis. A recent poll by the Kaiser Family Foundation, for example, found that 55 percent of Americans mistakenly believe the CBO has said the healthcare legislation will add to the deficit. Only 15 percent know that CBO has said the opposite.

In Health Care Bill, Obama Attacks Wealth Inequality (http://finance.yahoo.com/insurance/article/109158/in-health-care-bill-obama-attacks-wealth-inequality?sec=topStories&pos=4&asset=&ccode=)

Before he became Mr. Obama's top economic adviser, Lawrence Summers told me a story about helping his daughter study for her Advanced Placement exam in American history. While doing so, Mr. Summers realized that the federal government had not passed major social legislation in decades. There was the frenzy of the New Deal, followed by the G.I. Bill, the Interstate Highway System, civil rights and Medicare -- and then nothing worth its own section in the history books.

Now there is.

[RobMoney$]

has anyone's mind ever been changed on here? anyone ever said they were wrong? i took the idiot tennis to mean people treat politics like a sport and generally support their own side no matter what, minds dont get changed.. there is never any progress


Perhaps you overestimate the people who post here.
Speaking only for myself, it's not that I'm too stubborn to hear the oppositions POV.
In fact, I have pointed out that is part of what's wrong in American politics.
Democrats, Republicans are not your enemy, (and vice-versa).
We all should have representation on this country's policy. working together to make the country better for everyone.
Not just for the folks who happen to hold a majority.

I mean do you really expect me to be changed by the 3rd grade mentality that kaiser soze exhibits of "fuck that WE WIN YOU LOSE WHICH MEANS WERE ALWAYS RIGHT"?

It's not that I'm unwilling to listen, it's just that the pro-Obama people here are a joke.

[yeahwho]

It's not that I'm unwilling to listen, it's just that the pro-Obama people here are a joke.

If you support a sitting president are you a joke? Meaning every president this country has had?

What criteria does a president need to be supported? Without one being a joke?

[RobMoney$]

What I'm saying is, of the 3 staunch pro-obama people who post here,
Kaiser soze
you - Yeahwho
Brett Lambert

None of you are that convincing.

Opinions such as "WE WIN YOU LOSE", isn't going to change anyone's opinions.

In other words, Your political arguments are weak.
Not the content itself, but your personal arguments supporting that content.

[DroppinScience]

None of you are that convincing.


In the words of saz, "ditto."

[Burnout18]

Because it will not only add to the Budget, but it will add to the Debt that is already at an unacceptable level.
Because new taxes = less revenue = weaker economy = less jobs.
Because people will change their behavior to get a handout. And that is also not good for the economy.
Because if you thought the GOP were uncooperative before, you ain't seen NOTHING!
Because there's no telling where and how this is going to expand.

First point, i can't disagree with. With all the pieces in place obama and the democrats couldn't pass up this opprtunity even if the treasury is empty. Right place wrong time. Still not enought for me to kill myself over the bill.

Second point, you have to keep in mind there are people paying out thier ass for thier own health insurance, or someone who is debt and paying off 60 grand for 20 years.... that money turns into disposable income that can be used within the economy. I know you rebuttle would be the money from the poor would not replace money from the rich, and probably mathematically thats correct, but my point is there becomes if more families have more money to spend, that puts it back in the economy.

Third point, im sure theres cases of ppl who will bend over to make sure they get free healthcare,,, but come on theres people working two jobs now to support a family, and insurance for kids. And if you have a fucked up kid? These are the people this is for. Im not gonna lie to you and say lazy/shitty ppl dont exsist but i mean you have to look at the single parents, or parents who are working shit dead end jobs and barely surving.

As for growing to large, I do not fear government expansion or inappropriate overstepping by the governement. The people pay attention. It may be a slow moving shift, but the shifts occur. Look at Jersey, a blue state obama carried easily. Even Jersey looked at itself saw the shitshow the political landscape was and went Fuck this, get a republican in here.

As for the GOP, if less and less people show up to the tea parties, and this healthcare thing turns out to be a win-win-win for everyone, watch how quickly they cooperate. Maybe...Maybe They'll cooperate.

[yeahwho]

In other words, Your political arguments are weak.
Not the content itself, but your personal arguments supporting that content.

Usually once the content is presented you have no reply. Because honestly there is no argument after you've been corrected on the falseness of your postings.

[kaiser soze]

wait

Tax cuts generated revenue? By the look of our economy these past 9 years the cuts haven't generated money nor jobs.

I've found a bunch of pro and con opinion sites on this but nothing substantial in the way of real government numbers.

The "WE WIN YOU LOSE" comment was actually my poor attempt at satire with the way you treat arguments as a competition rob

I think it is perfectly fine for the rich to prop up the poor considering in almost every facet of industry it is the poor who work their asses off for pennies that prop up the profits of the rich.

[RobMoney$]

Please.

You think I'm failing to respond.
The reality of the situation is that the conversation is done, you just continue arguing the same points over & over.
No matter how wrong you are on a topic, you need to have the last word.
I don't.

I don't have time to respond to the same point over and over.

[kaiser soze]

*badum ching!*

that was a joke right?

[kaiser soze]

Senate Republicans invoke nap-time in protest of losing HCR vote

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24/gop-senators-refusing-to_n_511639.html

Senate Republicans fuming over the passage of health care reform are now refusing to work past 2 p.m. -- a tactic they can employ by invoking a little-known Senate rule.

On Wednesday, the Judiciary Committee was forced to cancel a hearing as was the Senate Armed Services Committee.

Rethugs, Teabuggers, and CONservatives should be pissed that their money is being wasted on these lazy fucks.

[kaiser soze]

Setting up the alibi for violence

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201003240060

Palin's map

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24/sarah-palins-pac-puts-gun_n_511433.html

maybe just a few bad apples are striking out, but who are the puppetmasters?

[travesty]

First point, i can't disagree with. With all the pieces in place obama and the democrats couldn't pass up this opprtunity even if the treasury is empty. Right place wrong time. Still not enought for me to kill myself over the bill.
I think you hit the bullseye. That is the absolute truth. This has been their Holly Grail for a century. The state of nations coffers is meaningless.

Second point, you have to keep in mind there are people paying out thier ass for thier own health insurance, or someone who is debt and paying off 60 grand for 20 years.... that money turns into disposable income that can be used within the economy. I know you rebuttle would be the money from the poor would not replace money from the rich, and probably mathematically thats correct, but my point is there becomes if more families have more money to spend, that puts it back in the economy.
You are right, I think of this just the opposite way. I look at it like you are taking disposable income from the people who actually have it in order to pay for healthcare for someone who can't afford it. Well, if they can't afford it, that means they have LESS disposable income than the actual cost of the insurance/care/service/whatever. SO you have actually taken MORE disposable income out of the economy. At the very least it's a wash on the dollar figures so I can't buy the "it helps the economy" argument as the dollars have to come out of the economy regardless of who pays it. Maybe I'm missing your point.

Third point, im sure theres cases of ppl who will bend over to make sure they get free healthcare,,, but come on theres people working two jobs now to support a family, and insurance for kids. And if you have a fucked up kid? These are the people this is for. Im not gonna lie to you and say lazy/shitty ppl dont exsist but i mean you have to look at the single parents, or parents who are working shit dead end jobs and barely surving.

So can we all support term limits on subsidized healthcare? I 'm all for helping people when they need it. Everyone goes through rough patches. But when families live for decades and even generations depending on welfare, etc. then there is a problem that can not be cured with more handouts.

As for growing to large, I do not fear government expansion or inappropriate overstepping by the governement. The people pay attention. It may be a slow moving shift, but the shifts occur. Look at Jersey, a blue state obama carried easily. Even Jersey looked at itself saw the shitshow the political landscape was and went Fuck this, get a republican in here.

There are days when I wish I didn't. I really do

[travesty]

Senate Republicans invoke nap-time in protest of losing HCR vote

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24/gop-senators-refusing-to_n_511639.html



Rethugs, Teabuggers, and CONservatives should be pissed that their money is being wasted on these lazy fucks.

That is some sore loser type shit. Not a great way pitch your cause. Morons.

[kaiser soze]

Add this to your list of criticism

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/03/24/dollar-bill-throw.html

Health-reform rally heckler says he's sorry and scared

The man who berated and tossed dollar bills at a man with Parkinson's disease during a health care protest last week says he is remorseful and scared.

"I snapped. I absolutely snapped and I can't explain it any other way," said Chris Reichert of Victorian Village, in a Dispatch interview.

Sorry for the verbal attack or just sorry for getting caught?

The new Teabagger motto - NOT HELPING THE CAUSE AT ALL

[b i o n i c]

republicans will pay for this!

[Dorothy Wood]

Palin's map

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24/sarah-palins-pac-puts-gun_n_511433.html

maybe just a few bad apples are striking out, but who are the puppetmasters?

holy shit, this almost made me cry.


I don't actually know how to feel about this bill, but it upsets me that it's spawning violence.

I wish that people would spend more time thinking about what they can do to improve society, rather than how they can tear it apart and "win".

[RobMoney$]

Kaiser= The Liberal Jerry Springer of the BBMB.
I look at him the same way most of you look at valvano.


OMG!!! Shocking Sensationalistic Partisan media coverage of some idiot I will attempt to label everyone that is not on my side of the argument like!!!

Is it really any different than "Hope,...Change,...Fail"


I'd also like to know what uber-liberal hippie blog he's ripping these links from.

[RobMoney$]

That is some sore loser type shit. Not a great way pitch your cause. Morons.


What do you expect?
This is what happens when you give one party full control of all three branches. They become drunk with power, think that because they hold the majority that they don't need to include the other side in the process, and then you have what we have here.


It's all in direct response to W's completely failing as a president that we find ourselves where we are today.

[travesty]

True. However This kind of shit is only making it worse. If the GOP really wants to win it back they need to rise above this kind of BS and show the electorate that they are earnestly trying to get along with the Democraps. We all know the Obama and the D's (sounds like a Motown group) are going to continue to cram through all of the unpopular liberal shit that they can anyway so throwing childish temper tantrums like this only lessens the GOP's case when they try to explain that they have been trying to get along the whole time.

Someone needs to start mending the massive political divide in this country. Obama has proven himself to be a complete charlatan and bold face liar based on his campaign promises of change and hope. He has made the divide much, much worse than Bush could have ever thought. However, both sides are playing the game. All I'm saying is that at some point someone in the GOP needs to live up to Obama's campaign promises :D

[kaiser soze]

I'd also like to know what uber-liberal hippie blog he's ripping these links from.

hey at least I'm not trying to sell it as my own :rolleyes:

*badum ching!*

most people post links and quotes from other sites around here, this is nothing new - hell some of your posts are just quotes and a link, at least I add a little commentary no matter how sensational or silly.

And well....I believe and do many of these lawmakers and now the FBI that these threats and attacks (bricks in windows are attacks not threats) shouldn't be taken lightly -Time to dust off the ol' All American Patriot Act and use it on some domestic terrorists.

[travesty]

I understand these people's frustration and general contempt for all things involving the federal government right now but this shit needs to be squashed, and fast. These dooshbags need to be caught and prosecuted and I am sure they are expecting it. People like this usually know the consequences yet their anger exceeds it. These won't be the last events like this if the government, both parties, continue to trample the people underfoot. Maybe they are just opposing the liberals using their own play book;

“You don’t ever want a crisis to go to waste; it’s an opportunity to do important things that you would otherwise avoid.”

— Rahm Emanuel

[kaiser soze]

Exactly!

This behavior is starting to shift media attention from the Republican's Legislative savvy to radicalism. These individuals are making threats towards the opposition rather than providing support for their downtrodden leaders....or is this how the GOP wants their constituents to behave, is intimidation the only political tool they have now?

Hate to say it and I know you and rob will guffaw, but the right-wing talking heads have such a way of making gospel the bullshit they spew and you know this. Hell, Glen Beck is talking about Commandments and the government coming after him - enabling the same mentality most 2nd Amendment fanatics hold, it is obvious to both sides of the fence.


I'm sure you have heard of Radio Rwanda

[Sir SkratchaLot]

Exactly!Hate to say it and I know you and rob will guffaw, but the right-wing talking heads have such a way of making gospel the bullshit they spew and you know this. Hell, Glen Beck is talking about Commandments and the government coming after him - enabling the same mentality most 2nd Amendment fanatics hold, it is obvious to both sides of the fence.

Pandering is how you make money in the conservative talk-show realm. Play on fears and prejudices, blow reality out of proportion x 100, get people worked up with off the wall rhetoric = rake in the $$$$$$$$.

[valvano]

i am sure MSNBC wont report this, but the violence against lawmakers is being directed at both sides of the aisle:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/25/rep-cantors-richmond-campaign-office-shot-overnight/

and since he is Jewish, is this considered a hate crime / hate speech?
Kaiser????
Yeah Who??
Dorothy??

[HAL 9000]

and since he is Jewish, is this considered a hate crime / hate speech?
Kaiser????
Yeah Who??
Dorothy??

It says the recent threats have been about health care not religion. So it is only a hate crime if you consider people who oppose or support socialised health care to be a social group. I dont think that so I would say it isnt.

[Echewta]

Cantor said Thursday that such threats should not be a "partisan issue."
So it shouldn't be a partisan issue.

[kaiser soze]

i am sure MSNBC wont report this, but the violence against lawmakers is being directed at both sides of the aisle:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/25/rep-cantors-richmond-campaign-office-shot-overnight/

and since he is Jewish, is this considered a hate crime / hate speech?
Kaiser????
Yeah Who??
Dorothy??

It should be treated as a dangerous crime and domestic terrorism and shouldn't be treated lightly. It is utter bullshit that anyone would be violent over a bill like this.

But Thank God our Second Amendment is still intact!

Cantor's story has a shitload of holes - They have said the shot might have been monday or tuesday, near the office (not into it), no talk of windows being hit or whether it was his office or the office of individuals working for his campaign.

Instead of calling an end to ALL violence, he is blaming Democrats for the violence - uh ok.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/state_regional/article/possible_shot_fired_at_office_building_of_cantor_c onsultant/332877

http://www2.dailyprogress.com/cdp/news/local/crime/article/shots_fired_outside_eric_cantors_campaign_office/54067

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2010/03/eric_cantor_accuses_democrats.html

[Burnout18]

So can we all support term limits on subsidized healthcare? I 'm all for helping people when they need it. Everyone goes through rough patches. But when families live for decades and even generations depending on welfare, etc. then there is a problem that can not be cured with more handouts.


I would support term limits on healthcare, thats a very valid point. But Ughh that would be tricky, i cant even begin to give you an acceptable example. But i certainly wouldn't rule it out.

Everything else is, like you said, how one views the situation.

[yeahwho]

Has anyone read anything about limits or co-pays on massages or what sort of certification massage parlors are required to have under this new house bill?

I'm thinking of changing massage parlors.

[RobMoney$]

The mother of a friend of mine works at a pharmacy.
She was telling me about how she can't believe the amount of people who have come into her pharmacy asking if they can get free scrips now under the new "free" healthcare bill.

[Burnout18]

The mother of a friend of mine works at a pharmacy.
She was telling me about how she can't believe the amount of people who have come into her pharmacy asking if they can get free scrips now under the new "free" healthcare bill.

hahaha i believe it too.

Amazing. Absolutely amazing.

[RobMoney$]

Dems reject amendment to ban Viagra for sex offenders
http://www.politico.com/livepulse/0310/Dems_reject_amendment_to_ban_Viagra_for_sex_offend ers.html


Democrats killed an amendment (http://www.politico.com/livepulse/0310/No_Viagra_for_sex_offenders.html) by Republican Sen. Tom Coburn to prevent the newly created insurance exchanges from using federal money to cover Viagra and other erectile dysfunction drugs for rapists, pedophiles and other sex offenders. The amendment failed 57-42
"The vast majority of Americans don't want their taxpayer dollars paying for this kind of drug for those kind of people," Coburn said.
Democratic Sen. Max Baucus urged his colleagues to defeat the amendment.
"This is a serious bill. This is a serious debate. The amendment offered by the senator from Oklahoma makes a mockery of the Senate, the debate and the American people. It is not a serious amendment. It is a crass political stunt aimed at making 30-second commercials, not public policy," he said.
Democrats have defeated every amendment offered by Republicans so far, arguing that any change will kill the bill.

[yeahwho]

No man is truly free if he cannot get a state-sponsored abortion.

[b i o n i c]

maybe there's some state sponsored castration for sex offenders in the works.
all that free viagra would be torture(y) i wouldnt put it past those sneaks dems

[DroppinScience]

Nothing's worse than a sex offender who can't even get it up...

[DroppinScience]

The mother of a friend of mine works at a pharmacy.
She was telling me about how she can't believe the amount of people who have come into her pharmacy asking if they can get free scrips now under the new "free" healthcare bill.

Yeah well, people call me at the library wanting to BUY a book and I have to tell them we're a library, not a bookstore. (And yes, that does actually happen to me).

Your point?

[Documad]

.

[kaiser soze]

Looks like Rep Cantor's story is bullshit

http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-us-health-care-threats-cantor,0,5342289.story

sorry valvano :(

[DroppinScience]

Looks like Rep Cantor's story is bullshit

http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-us-health-care-threats-cantor,0,5342289.story

sorry valvano :(

So this gun was fired in the air and the bullet fell down and happened to hit Cantor's window? Who fired the gun in the first place?

[travesty]

Iraqis, they do that shit all the time. Must have been a wedding or something.

Looks like Rep Cantor's story is bullshit
What was his story? I didn't hear anything other than speculation. Did he say he saw someone shoot it? What am I missing?

[Bob]

Looks like Rep Cantor's story is bullshit

http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-us-health-care-threats-cantor,0,5342289.story

sorry valvano :(

you can't really blame cantor for that though, can you? if you're a politician and you come into your office to find a bullet hole in your window in the midst of a heated political controversy i don't think it's unreasonable to think "somebody must have shot at my window because they don't like me". unless you're david caruso or something you couldn't really tell where the bullet came from

[DroppinScience]

Iraqis, they do that shit all the time. Must have been a wedding or something.


What was his story? I didn't hear anything other than speculation. Did he say he saw someone shoot it? What am I missing?

The Democrats have been getting threats of violence leveled against them. Cantor responded by saying he's been getting threats too, citing the bullet that went through his window. I'm not sure if there's more to it...

[kaiser soze]

you can't really blame cantor for that though, can you? if you're a politician and you come into your office to find a bullet hole in your window in the midst of a heated political controversy i don't think it's unreasonable to think "somebody must have shot at my window because they don't like me". unless you're david caruso or something you couldn't really tell where the bullet came from

We can blame him for lying - for saying the Democrats are flaming the violence and connecting that to this random incident which had NOTHING to do with him nor incitement of violence.

[kaiser soze]

Suspicious powder sent to Anthony Weiner's office

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20001197-503544.html

An envelope containing white powder and a threatening letter was today delivered to the office of Democratic Rep. Anthony Weiner of New York, who has been an outspoken proponent of health care reform efforts.

Flag shreds doused in gasoline sent to another rep?

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/25/condom-sent-to-democrat-who-voted-for-health-care-bill/?fbid=C9Yn8R-MLmN

Washington (CNN) - Rep. Betty McCollum, D-Minnesota, was one of several members of Congress who reported receiving obscene and threatening letters after voting for the health care reform bill passed by Democrats on Sunday.

Her office also reported receiving part of a shredded American flag doused in gasoline and a typed letter addressed to McCollum, Rep. Keith Ellison, Sen. Amy Klobuchar and Sen. Al Franken - all Democrats from Minnesota.

These acts are Terrorism without a doubt. Another reason why the nuts should not be allowed to gather with their guns in our Nation's Capitol.

[travesty]

C'mon dude really? A shredded flag doused in gasoline is an act of terrorism? Please bro, get a grip.

The powder is a stretch but your closer with that one.

Is there anything you're not scared of? Cute little kittens. Puppy's breath?
I don't know how you leave the house.

I don't condone these acts (though I think the flag one is hilarious) but the majority of America are at their wits end with this administration. Their voices have been trampled and ignored and nothing thus far has made them think they will ever be considered. What did you think was going to happen? That people were just going to go back to work and accept this gross injustice? This healthcare bill and this president has created a divide in this country that I feel will prove much, much more dangerous to the population than expensive health insurance could ever be.

[DroppinScience]

I don't know who you're referring to when you say they're "at their wits end" about this administration.

After the bill was passed, there was a jump in favorability towards the bill. There is still a divide, but we'll see what happens when these measures are actually implemented. The people throwing bricks at windows represent a mob mentality, not majority will. I will even hazard to guess that the majority of those opposed to health care reform do not approve of violence or threats of violence against elected officials.

Nevertheless, I am dismayed at the passivity and complacency you have towards these acts. Are you not concerned that there's threats against some of these elected officials' family? Some nutjob actually cut the gas to the home of a congressman's brother (mistakenly believing that the home belonged to the congressman), and the place would have blown up had anyone lit a match.

What will you say if the next Timothy McVeigh blows up a building, what then? Do they still have it coming?

[kaiser soze]

Their voices have been trampled and ignored and nothing thus far has made them think they will ever be considered. What did you think was going to happen? That people were just going to go back to work and accept this gross injustice? This healthcare bill and this president has created a divide in this country that I feel will prove much, much more dangerous to the population than expensive health insurance could ever be.

ok, so when people lose elections because the MAJORITY wins - it is ok to become borderline terrorists. I guess you forgot about the "FREE SPEECH" zones and the arbitrary locking up of peaceful protesters who did not agree with the previous administration. Where was your outrage of such tyrannous actions and your support for those true patriots?

nowhere to be found or heard

Might I add sending unmarked flammable and hazardous materials are violations of state and federal law?

If they start sending cute kittens and puppies you're damn straight I'll be scared out of my wits - could be a pussy or puppy bomb

[kaiser soze]

Letter sent to (Ark) Rep Snyder (father of triplets) intercepted by Capitol Police

http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article.aspx?aID=121023.54928.133165

LITTLE ROCK - U.S. Rep. Vic Snyder of Arkansas says a letter saying he's a target for assassination was intercepted by U.S. Capitol Police.

terrorists, straight up

[Knuckles]

He has made the divide much, much worse than Bush could have ever thought.

You can't be serious.

[kaiser soze]

well that's what Beck, Hannity, and Limbaugh have said

Threats are mounting, this is not a just a few bad apples

http://www.wkyc.com/news/politics_govt/politics_article.aspx?storyid=133124&catid=130

http://www.wkyc.com/video/default.aspx?bctid=73926459001#/Local+News/FBI+investigating+threats+against+to+NE+Ohio+congr essmen/52842945001/52747301001/73926459001

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/politics/state/stories/DN-txcongthreats_26tex.ART.State.Edition1.4cbd953.htm l

[Echewta]

A majority is fed up? I'd like to see the numbers on that one.

[kaiser soze]

I think he meant majority as in majority of assholes

[Bob]

A majority is fed up? I'd like to see the numbers on that one.

i suspect that people might be confusing numbers with loudness

[checkyourprez]

C'mon dude really? A shredded flag doused in gasoline is an act of terrorism? Please bro, get a grip.

The powder is a stretch but your closer with that one.

Is there anything you're not scared of? Cute little kittens. Puppy's breath?
I don't know how you leave the house.

I don't condone these acts (though I think the flag one is hilarious) but the majority of America are at their wits end with this administration. Their voices have been trampled and ignored and nothing thus far has made them think they will ever be considered. What did you think was going to happen? That people were just going to go back to work and accept this gross injustice? This healthcare bill and this president has created a divide in this country that I feel will prove much, much more dangerous to the population than expensive health insurance could ever be.

haha you can't really be serious with that.



and if you are.....well thats what that segment of the population gets for being such dumbasses and voting in the dubya. twice.

[yeahwho]

Krugman and NYTimes readers have this state of bullying and actual physical harm nailed in his "Going Extreme (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/opinion/26krugman.html)" piece written today.

The wild response to health care reform becoming law has exposed the dangerous state of the Republican Party.

To me this is a political party that has lost touch of actual governing (that is suppose to be a politicians job right?).

The comments section (http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/opinion/26krugman.html?sort=recommended) per usual has some gems such as this one,

------ Dr. Krugman gleefully points to Mitt Romney doing the hucklebuck - one step forward, another one back. But what is even more of a hoot is watching Senators Hatch and Grassley do an even more intricate dance while trying to distance themselves from the amendment they proposed to modify the Hillary Clinton health care reform bill. That amendment included a Federal mandate that everyone buy health insurance. When asked how it was that the mandate was constitutional in 1993 and unconstitutional in 2010, the both danced to the tune of "well, I didn't even think about the constitutionality then." Really, both senators should not be allowed on the Senate floor unless they are wearing tutus. and ballerina slippers.

And by the way, the Massachusetts bill that Mitt Romney supported and signed included a state mandate to purchase health insurance. I'll allow grassley to be clad in a blue tutu but Romney must wear pink, the color of hypocrisy.------

[RobMoney$]

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/industries/telecom/att-taking-b-charge-cover-costs-new-health-care-legislation/

AT&T (T: 26.24, 0.08, 0.31%) said Friday that tax ramifications related to the newly passed health-care legislation will force it to take a $1 billion non-cash charge in the first quarter.

In papers filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, AT&T said the charge stems from changes in the tax laws regarding the Medicare Part D subsidy. AT&T will no longer be able to deduct tax-free subsidies it receives from the government for providing retirees prescription-drug benefits.

“AT&T Inc. intends to take a non-cash charge of approximately $1 billion in the first quarter of 2010 to reflect the impact of this change,” the company said.

Furthermore, AT&T said in the filing that, as a result of this legislation, including the additional tax burden, “AT&T will be evaluating prospective changes to the active and retiree health care benefits offered by the company.”

President Barack Obama signed into law this week a sweeping health-care reform bill that requires companies of a certain size to provide coverage to their workers in an effort to provide coverage to some 30 million Americans without insurance.

Taxes on some companies are being raised to help defray the cost of the legislation.

Businesses organizations such as the U.S. Chamber of Commerce have slammed the new law, arguing it will hurt companies by adding new costs and additional tax burdens.

In the first two days after the law was signed, three major companies — Deere & Co. (DE: 60.399, 0.189, 0.31%), Caterpillar Inc. (CAT: 62.35, 0.19, 0.31%) and Valero Energy — said they expect to take a total hit of $265 million to account for smaller tax deductions in the future.

So previously, in order to entice companies to keep prescription drug coverage in retirement packages (and off Medicare), the gov't offered a tax break to the companies that did so, because it was cheaper to give them a little cash to do it than take all those retirees into the gov't system.
Then the HCR bill got rid of the tax break, "saving" 5.4 B dollars.
But now the companies are being forced to dump the coverage instead of paying the full, non-tax break cost, throwing all these people back into Medicare, saving nothing and costing more.

See, this is the problem with the static tax analysis the CBO reported.
They consider changes in tax policy without considering its impact on behavior.
The closure of this “loophole” is a perfect example of this stunted thinking.

[travesty]

ok, so when people lose elections because the MAJORITY wins - it is ok to become borderline terrorists. I guess you forgot about the "FREE SPEECH" zones and the arbitrary locking up of peaceful protesters who did not agree with the previous administration. Where was your outrage of such tyrannous actions and your support for those true patriots?

nowhere to be found or heard

Might I add sending unmarked flammable and hazardous materials are violations of state and federal law?

If they start sending cute kittens and puppies you're damn straight I'll be scared out of my wits - could be a pussy or puppy bomb

Check my history. I've lampooned free speach zones before, search my posts.
As I said, I don't condone these actions but I think it's a bit premature to call it "terrorism" no one has has been the least bit harmed except for some tender Democrat feelings. Now I know that "feelings" are what's really important to you types so I can understand you don't want anyone hurting them.

If what these poeple did violates the law, they should be prosecuted, period. I have never said otherwise. I just find it amusing that the Democrats try and get so much media play out of it. It's sorry really, now they are begging (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/25/democrats-raise-funds-over-threats-of-violence/?fbid=wamdhD2RjbC)for your money to help them with their security. Obama is in on it too using it to juice up the DNC war chest 'cause they know they are going to need it to fight off some very tough elections in 2010. These people are pathetic.

As for my majority of americans comment, it was probably a bit overstated. I concede, but there are a lot of them and they are becoming more and more vocal.

For DS-
I don't know who you're referring to when you say they're "at their wits end" about this administration.
Mostly just people with any rational sense of liberty or financial aplomb.

After the bill was passed, there was a jump in favorability towards the bill. There is still a divide, but we'll see what happens when these measures are actually implemented.
Yeah but I don't think it will come soon enough. The taxation is starting now but the real benefits come much later, like 2014.That is a pretty big window for the GOP to campaign on eliminatiing the taxes without a whole lot of repercussion about the actual healthcare part because no one will have even seen it yet. Both parties will continue to try and drive the spike home. The divide will get much much worse than you can imagine, I guarantee it. This issue is not going to unite us.

Nevertheless, I am dismayed at the passivity and complacency you have towards these acts. Are you not concerned that there's threats against some of these elected officials' family? Some nutjob actually cut the gas to the home of a congressman's brother (mistakenly believing that the home belonged to the congressman), and the place would have blown up had anyone lit a match.
There is no suspect or perpetrator in the case of severed gas line. Any allusion to what that person's motive or mental state was is complete and utter speculation. FOr all we know this is another Democrat false flag atttack on their own. It's obvious that your are buying the theory that MSNBC is selling. Should it prove wrong will you apologize once and for all for jumping to conclusions about who or what did this like you never did concerning your knee jerk accusations with the census worker suicide?

As for passivity, what are you looking for? People are pissed at the government, shit like this happens, when shit like that happens. I said I don't condone it. What else are YOU doing besides speaking out against it?

What will you say if the next Timothy McVeigh blows up a building, what then? Do they still have it coming?
You know that I do not condone violence under any circumstance. That's not me. But to be honest there is a great handful of cocksucker, lying scumbag, politicans that I could ALMOST say do have it coming. But I prefer to vent about it on message boards and be active locally rather than threaten or condone the threat of people's lives.

[travesty]

[URL]

See, this is the problem with the static tax analysis the CBO reported.
They consider changes in tax policy without considering its impact on behavior.
The closure of this “loophole” is a perfect example of this stunted thinking.

(y) Yeah but the CBO said this bill will reduce the deficit. You believe them right?I mean they ARE "non-partisan" right? That doesn't mean they factored in every potential scenario in their estimate. The numbers are just too boggling to get a definitive answer on. I wish I worked at the CBO sounds like a place where it would nearly impossible to be proven wrong.

[yeahwho]

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/industries/telecom/att-taking-b-charge-cover-costs-new-health-care-legislation/



So previously, in order to entice companies to keep prescription drug coverage in retirement packages (and off Medicare), the gov't offered a tax break to the companies that did so, because it was cheaper to give them a little cash to do it than take all those retirees into the gov't system.
Then the HCR bill got rid of the tax break, "saving" 5.4 B dollars.
But now the companies are being forced to dump the coverage instead of paying the full, non-tax break cost, throwing all these people back into Medicare, saving nothing and costing more.

See, this is the problem with the static tax analysis the CBO reported.
They consider changes in tax policy without considering its impact on behavior.
The closure of this “loophole” is a perfect example of this stunted thinking.

Yes loophole is the correct term, from the CBS Marketwatch blog;

Is health law already hurting business? Maybe, maybe not. (http://blogs.marketwatch.com/election/2010/03/26/is-health-law-already-hurting-business-maybe-maybe-not/)

Here’s how it used to work. Companies got a federal subsidy worth up to $1,330 per retiree to continue to offer coverage for prescription drugs. Retirees could stay on the company plan and the government wouldn’t have to shell out more money via Medicare for prescription drugs.

But wait. Just like in all those late-night infomercials, there’s more. Companies also got to deduct the federal subsidy from their taxes. In effect, it was a double benefit for the company. It was sort of like the government giving every citizen a $5,000 stimulus check each year and letting them reduce their taxable income by the same amount (Sign me up!).

It has been a controversial tax break for years (http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2010/03/25/health-reform-and-america-s-businesses-bottom-line), mainly because a loophole in the law allowed businesses to deduct the value of that subsidy twice – they can exclude the 28% from their income and at the same time deduct the 28% from their income for tax purposes.

[kaiser soze]

Yes loophole is the correct term, from the CBS Marketwatch blog;

Is health law already hurting business? Maybe, maybe not. (http://blogs.marketwatch.com/election/2010/03/26/is-health-law-already-hurting-business-maybe-maybe-not/)

Here’s how it used to work. Companies got a federal subsidy worth up to $1,330 per retiree to continue to offer coverage for prescription drugs. Retirees could stay on the company plan and the government wouldn’t have to shell out more money via Medicare for prescription drugs.

But wait. Just like in all those late-night infomercials, there’s more. Companies also got to deduct the federal subsidy from their taxes. In effect, it was a double benefit for the company. It was sort of like the government giving every citizen a $5,000 stimulus check each year and letting them reduce their taxable income by the same amount (Sign me up!).

It has been a controversial tax break for years (http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2010/03/25/health-reform-and-america-s-businesses-bottom-line), mainly because a loophole in the law allowed businesses to deduct the value of that subsidy twice – they can exclude the 28% from their income and at the same time deduct the 28% from their income for tax purposes.

My guess this is how the AT&T situation is coming about

[DroppinScience]

There is no suspect or perpetrator in the case of severed gas line. Any allusion to what that person's motive or mental state was is complete and utter speculation. FOr all we know this is another Democrat false flag atttack on their own. It's obvious that your are buying the theory that MSNBC is selling. Should it prove wrong will you apologize once and for all for jumping to conclusions about who or what did this like you never did concerning your knee jerk accusations with the census worker suicide?

Here is the story:

Over the next 24 hours, thrown bricks shattered the glass doors and windows of party headquarters from Rochester, N.Y., to Cincinnati. A gas line at the Charlottesville, Va., home of the brother of Rep. Tom Perriello, D-Va., was severed Tuesday after a self-identified "tea party" activist posted what he believed to be the Virginia Democrat's address on a Web site and urged opponents to "drop by" to convey their opposition to his yes vote on health care.

http://www.pressherald.com/news/nationworld/vote-unleashes-torrent-of-vandalism-death-threats_2010-03-25.html

Yes, a "Democratic false flag" to be sure.

Tell you what, I'll apologize if the gas line turns out to be something else entirely. I sure hope you apologize for dismissing and making light of threats, intimidation, vandalism, etc... especially if these threats turn into actual violence. I know getting calls saying that a sniper is going to take you out is just whining and bitching to you, so I guess we all have our double standards.

[travesty]

Ummm... gee I still don't see any evidence that the gas line incident was perpetrated by tea partiers. I can get the home address of any elected official I want online, that doesn't make the White Pages a terrorist organization. Look, there is a good chance you are right about this BUT there is simply no evidence to support it at this time so right now it is all speculation, not unlike Cantor jumping the gun:D about the bullet through his window.

For chrissake DS, now when did I ever dismiss these threats? I have rebuked them since the start. Because I thought the flag shreds where hilarious? Really I think it was more clever than hilarious since this bill and this administration have continued the shredding of America as we know it that has been the modus operandi in Washington for the last few decades. Spare me for seeing the symbolism. If that shredded flag blows up and hurts someone I will apologize for finding it "hilarious".

Now THIS (http://jalopnik.com/5502832/lunatic-smashes-into-car-over-obama+biden-bumper-sticker) is terrorism...

[RobMoney$]

Yes loophole is the correct term, from the CBS Marketwatch blog;

Is health law already hurting business? Maybe, maybe not. (http://blogs.marketwatch.com/election/2010/03/26/is-health-law-already-hurting-business-maybe-maybe-not/)

Here’s how it used to work. Companies got a federal subsidy worth up to $1,330 per retiree to continue to offer coverage for prescription drugs. Retirees could stay on the company plan and the government wouldn’t have to shell out more money via Medicare for prescription drugs.

But wait. Just like in all those late-night infomercials, there’s more. Companies also got to deduct the federal subsidy from their taxes. In effect, it was a double benefit for the company. It was sort of like the government giving every citizen a $5,000 stimulus check each year and letting them reduce their taxable income by the same amount (Sign me up!).

It has been a controversial tax break for years (http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2010/03/25/health-reform-and-america-s-businesses-bottom-line), mainly because a loophole in the law allowed businesses to deduct the value of that subsidy twice – they can exclude the 28% from their income and at the same time deduct the 28% from their income for tax purposes.

Right, and that's because that was still cheaper for the Government than putting all those retirees on Medicare, which will now most likely happen.

The Democrats in Congress actually argued that they would gain $5.4 billion in revenue by eliminating the tax break enacted in the 2003 Medicare Part D program as an incentive for businesses to keep their retirees out of the Medicare system.
Instead, they have given businesses a reason to dump their retirees out of the private networks and into the Part D system now.
Not only will the expected tax revenues never appear, but now we will have to spend a lot more money covering those prescriptions out of public funds.
The seniors in these programs will suffer most of all, as the Part D coverage is vastly inferior to the private plans offered by businesses in the private sector.

Who could have foreseen this?
Well, businesses have been trying to get attention to this problem for months
And I'm sure AT&T, Caterpiller, 3M, and companies like them will just absorb these added tax burdens.
I'm sure no one's benefit contributions, level of benefits package, or jobs PERIOD will be affected in the least.
Sounds like this is going to do a great deal to create jobs and spur on the economy. WIN-WIN!

This is probably going to be just the tip of the iceberg of the very negative unintended consequences.
The bill is just days old.

Yeah, this bill is going to turn out well.

[yeahwho]

A lot of people foresaw this, it was one of the reasons corporate lobbying was so strong, Healthcare Reform Losers: Companies Providing Retiree Benefits Face Multi-Million Dollar Tax Costs (http://moneymorning.com/2010/03/26/healthcare-reform-5/),

After sending letters of protest to Congress in the months prior to the healthcare law's approval, U.S. companies are now facing multi-million dollar after-tax hits this year due to a tax provision in the new legislation, labeling them healthcare reform losers instead of winners. The CFOs contested the "double-dipping" accusation that they receive a tax-deduction for the cost of coverage in addition to the 28% subsidy, saying companies are still absorbing more costs than the government or the retirees. Adding to those expenses could encourage companies to drop the coverage, leaving retirees to shift to Medicare and costing the government more than estimated.


I have mixed feelings, that was a sweet deal for a business that size, but for a guy like me the only way I can lower 28% and deduct 28% is to go to jail. It was controversial in 2004 and was going to stay controversial until the medicare plan D addressed it.

It's a hit and I'm not denying it, but for crying out loud I'm being taxed for banks right now forcibly through my paycheck, I can't fucking feel sorry about a corporate entity like AT&T with billions of dollars having to pay more than partial taxes. They will dump this onto us for sure, but their profits will go up and people will work for them because they will be insured. That is how universal health care works.

And where is the statistical evidence that private insurers do a better job than medicare or any universal health care plan? My insurance is fucking horrible at pharmaceuticals, the cost, the administration of and the actual brand names vs. generic battle that is presented whenever a new drug comes out. I have had medicine run out and been on the phone between insurer, pharmacy and doctor for days while being sick. Only to find out the private insurer had punched in bad data.

I have better insurance that anyone I know, it isn't some ham & egg operation my insurer insures 30 million employees on the west coast. That cost has gone up just this last year 20%. They make a tidy profit.

[RobMoney$]

If we agree that providing health insurance to employees is a legitimate cost of doing business, then it should be deductible.

This concept that the Government allows tax deductions = taxpayers footing the bill is a Democrat mindset that I don't understand.
Allowing legitimate expenses such as health care expenses for employees to be deducted and taxing on the remaining profit seems only fair and logical, and not some generous gift from the government.
Now what seems will be the result is that companies are forced to cut benefits they are currently giving employees and sending that money to the government so they can throw on even more layers of bureaucracy and then spend the remaining 10-20% to benefit some non-productive member of society.
Forgetting about all the government bureaucracy, the difference is the people who at a company who actually earned the revenues to pay for their own insurance are being punished, and that money is being transfered to individuals who are not earning enough money to pay.
In relative terms, you are taking money from the more productive and giving it to the less productive.
Instead of letting markets decide which products are good and desirable, these types of programs punish the successful companies and rewards the unsuccessful.
It takes away the incentive to succeed which hurts economic growth.
AT&T will have $1 billion less to grow and possibly hire new people.

[Documad]

Rob, do you know whether AT&T's issue is that it lost the double dipping tax benefit? I'm trying to figure out whether you and yeahwho are talking about the same thing.

Your own article said that AT&T is upset about losing a deduction for a subsidy. I think of a subsidy as government funding. Do you agree that a business should be able to deduct money it received in revenue and spent on health care for its employees, but not deduct money that it got from the government to spend on health care for its employees?

Have you seen anything re what part of the bill supposedly takes away a true deduction for employees' health care? That doesn't sound right.

[RobMoney$]

I have no idea what AT&T's issues are other than what the article I posted stated.



AT&T said Friday that tax ramifications related to the newly passed health-care legislation will force it to take a $1 billion non-cash charge in the first quarter.
A handful of other companies have also announced projected losses stemming from the new law, but AT&T's is by far the largest. Also Friday, 3M said it expects a $85 million to $90 million charge.
In papers filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, AT&T said the charge stems from changes in the tax laws regarding the Medicare Part D subsidy. AT&T will no longer be able to deduct tax-free subsidies it receives from the government for providing retirees prescription-drug benefits.
“AT&T Inc. intends to take a non-cash charge of approximately $1 billion in the first quarter of 2010 to reflect the impact of this change,” the company said.
Furthermore, AT&T said in the filing that, as a result of this legislation, including the additional tax burden, “AT&T will be evaluating prospective changes to the active and retiree health care benefits offered by the company.”



As I understand it, the companies will defray this cost by either charging more, dropping benefits, or finding cheaper labor elsewhere.
Which of these do you think is the better option?

[Documad]

AT&T will no longer be able to deduct tax-free subsidies it receives from the government
I don't understand why any company should get to deduct a tax free subsidy unless it means something different from the common meaning. It seems like they're closing a loophole that shouldn't have been there, but I'm not an expert.

I can see why the government might let me deduct $5000 if I spent it on energy efficient windows. But if the government gave me the $5000 for the purpose of buying windows in the first place, then why should I get to write it off on my taxes? It seems like it should be one or the other, not both at the same time.

I understand why AT&T is upset about this sweet deal coming to an end, but it seems like they shouldn't have gotten it in the first place, so I'll save my outrage for something else.

[RobMoney$]

There's nothing wrong with a deduction that encourages business to give more to it's employees.
If the article is true and the same coverage under medicare is worse, then this is a bad thing for the individuals affected.
Not sure why anyone would oppose such a plan?
Maybe an extreme incentive like that is what it takes to get a company to fund its retiree's prescription drug costs?
The problem companies like AT&T have is that they are locked into union contracts that require them to continue to provide this benefit.

Certainly this is not an "unintended" or unexpected result as this part of the bill was heavily debated and discussed and these same companies raised this issue.

[yeahwho]

It's always interesting how these bills get passed for major players, but at my wages I am considered remote interest.

The question should be: How did these corporations manage to ever get taxpayer drug subsidies for their underfunded retirement program in the first place? Billy Tauzin-(R)LA (http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/pressroomredirect.cfm?ID=1635) pushed this bill through just before he quit and took a $2,000,000/year job as CEO of PhRMA.

Now the gravy train has stopped. And from what I hear Mr. Tauzin (http://www.phrma.org/news_room/press_releases/phrma_president_and_ceo_tauzin_decides_end_tenure_ june_search_successor_beg)is no longer President and CEO of the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA).

Damn.

[Documad]

There's nothing wrong with a deduction that encourages business to give more to it's employees.

I agree, especially if the company is giving its employees medical benefits. That's not the issue here.

The issue here is that AT&T apparently pays for the employees' benefits with government money instead of its own money. I think that AT&T should either get the handout or the deduction, but not both.

(I have no idea whether the facts are true re AT&T -- it's just what it says in the article you posted.)

[RobMoney$]

I agree, especially if the company is giving its employees medical benefits. That's not the issue here.

The issue here is that AT&T apparently pays for the employees' benefits with government money instead of its own money. I think that AT&T should either get the handout or the deduction, but not both.

(I have no idea whether the facts are true re AT&T -- it's just what it says in the article you posted.)

I do not believe companies used the subsidy to fund the prescription plan 100% and then used the tax deduction to fill it's coffers.

I'd be willing to bet both the subsidy and the tax deduction equaled less than 50% of the companies total contribution for the plan.

[Echewta]

It's always interesting how these bills get passed for major players, but at my wages I am considered remote interest.

The question should be: How did these corporations manage to ever get taxpayer drug subsidies for their underfunded retirement program in the first place? Billy Tauzin-(R)LA (http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/pressroomredirect.cfm?ID=1635) pushed this bill through just before he quit and took a $2,000,000/year job as CEO of PhRMA.

Now the gravy train has stopped. And from what I hear Mr. Tauzin (http://www.phrma.org/news_room/press_releases/phrma_president_and_ceo_tauzin_decides_end_tenure_ june_search_successor_beg)is no longer President and CEO of the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA).

Damn.

Interesting.

[DroppinScience]

Good to know that these crazies threatening violence and murder are getting what they deserve...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/06/charles-alan-wilson-charg_n_527328.html

[yeahwho]

Yes!

Fuck Yes!

Vindication for 'Obamacare' (http://www.latimes.com/health/la-ed-health-20120629,0,6646434.story)