Obama uses convicted of drug fraud as example of unemployed who deserve benefits

[valvano]

http://www.newsplex.com/home/headlines/99497354.html

hope....change......failure......

[Echewta]

Is she administering policies? Is she the only reason why Obama is extending unemployment benefits? Did he sleep with her? Did she sneak in?

Man, you find the smallest things to bag on Obama when there are so many other bigger fish to pick from. This is nothing.

[Bob]

he should have called me

[abcdefz]

It is kinda hard to believe they didn't vett her, though. I think the stupidity of that may even trump the schedule 3 fraud.

[kaiser soze]

Obama uses convicted of drug fraud as example of unemployed who deserve benefits

Oxycontin is a hell of a drug

[Bob]

It is kinda hard to believe they didn't vett her, though. I think the stupidity of that may even trump the schedule 3 fraud.

that is true, yeah. i mean if you're going to find someone to use as a poster child for unemployment benefits, one of the first questions you're going to want to ask them is "so why did you lose your job?"

[kaiser soze]

ah yes....once again valvano worried about the little things in life - her crimes pale in comparison to the billions lost in iraq under bush and cheney (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/feb/08/usa.iraq1), oh....sorry, that crime is ok because well....why?

keep scraping at the bottom while those who own you float at the top

[travesty]

$12 billion vanishes in Iraq... $862 billion vanishes in Obama's stimulus program.
Hmmmmmmm.
Talk about bigger fish to fry. Neither one is good but.....

I couldn't figure out why Obama stood there talking about these people losing their jobs and trying to roust up the pity vote instead of giving these three people one of the millions of jobs his stimulus program "created or saved";). I mean wasn't that like admitting failure to the entire country. Like he couldn't even get jobs for THREE people. I know it was a dog and pony show for the unemployment bill but it still seemed like he was parading his economic ineffectiveness on national TV.

[valvano]

^ except for govt beauracrats and union workers, the obamulus has been a massive failure

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38483531/ns/business-stocks_and_economy/

i guess running a country is a bit harder than organizing voters in a chicao housing project while hanging out with your ex hippie radical friends...

funny to see him go to detroit to talk about saved jobs, while ignoring all the jobs killed under his watch....

:rolleyes:

[Echewta]

The Commerce Department report released Friday did offer some encouraging news. Businesses invested the most in 13 years on equipment and software during the second quarter. For the first time in two years, builders boosted spending on commercial projects. And home builders spent the most in 27 years, although many expect that to fade now that government homebuying tax credits have expired.

The report also showed that the economy grew at a 3.7 percent pace in the first three months of this year. That was much better than the 2.7 percent pace estimated just a month ago.

Thanks for the link V. I'll copy and paste some for you.

[valvano]

Thanks for the link V. I'll copy and paste some for you.

are you attempting to justify the multi multi multi billion dollar stimulus passed by obama and co with this minimal growth in GDP yet unemployment still hangs around 10%? and with forecasters saying a double dip recession appears very likely??? :confused:

[yeahwho]

Why do people always bitch about jobs yet never bitch about the wholesale surrender of American jobs to the lowest bidder? The reason we're fucked is because we gave away our jobs for top end corporate profits.

Even during our longest war the vets are coming home to low paying service industry jobs.

I have not heard a politician run on "Made in America" ever. That was the day I guess, back when the USA was becoming strong, gainfully employed and much less a welfare state.

[valvano]

Why do people always bitch about jobs yet never bitch about the wholesale surrender of American jobs to the lowest bidder? The reason we're fucked is because we gave away our jobs for top end corporate profits.

Even during our longest war the vets are coming home to low paying service industry jobs.

I have not heard a politician run on "Made in America" ever. That was the day I guess, back when the USA was becoming strong, gainfully employed and much less a welfare state.


do you ever wonder why "Made In America" is almost extinct?
-US tax rates
-US Govt hurdles and regulations on businesses
-an administration in bed with the unions (see Detroit for how well a heavily unionized workforce makes for a good standard of living)
-did I mention taxes?
-did I mention layers of beauracracy?
-massive govt healthcare mandates
-did I mention taxes?
-need for tort reform
-out of whack environmental regulation

its no wonder businesses move their operating bases to other countries

[Bob]

what's your opinion on taxes?

[Sir SkratchaLot]

do you ever wonder why "Made In America" is almost extinct?
-US tax rates
-US Govt hurdles and regulations on businesses
-an administration in bed with the unions (see Detroit for how well a heavily unionized workforce makes for a good standard of living)
-did I mention taxes?
-did I mention layers of beauracracy?
-massive govt healthcare mandates
-did I mention taxes?
-need for tort reform
-out of whack environmental regulation

its no wonder businesses move their operating bases to other countries

Hell yeah! That! And also the fact that you can't pay a 10 year old American kid 12 cents an hour to make shoes and electronics. That's what I'm on about. A few kids lose fingers and hands back in the industrial revolution and everyone freaks out. People start suing wanting compensation for that! WTF? Now they have to put kids in "school" (i.e. Obamamentory School). And that just raises OUR fucking taxes!!!!!! I don't know about you guys but if you compare that antifreedomization to the $300 we got from the Bush tax cuts I'm taking my $300!!! $300!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Echewta]

do you ever wonder why "Made In America" is almost extinct?
-US tax rates
-US Govt hurdles and regulations on businesses
-an administration in bed with the unions (see Detroit for how well a heavily unionized workforce makes for a good standard of living)
-did I mention taxes?
-did I mention layers of beauracracy?
-massive govt healthcare mandates
-did I mention taxes?
-need for tort reform
-out of whack environmental regulation

its no wonder businesses move their operating bases to other countries

Good thing none of the above was going on the 8 years before Obama. Man, those were the golden years.

Out of whack environmental regulation...hahahaha. SEE GULF OF MEXICO

[Sir SkratchaLot]

Good thing none of the above was going on the 8 years before Obama. Man, those were the golden years.

Out of whack environmental regulation...hahahaha. SEE GULF OF MEXICO

You mean the Gulfbama Ofbamo Obamico? If it were'n't for Obamacare then our Taxbamas whouldn't be so refudiated. :mad: TAXES!!!!!!!!! FREEDOM!!!!!! :mad:

[Guy Incognito]

Hell yeah! That! And also the fact that you can't pay a 10 year old American kid 12 cents an hour to make shoes and electronics. That's what I'm on about. A few kids lose fingers and hands back in the industrial revolution and everyone freaks out. People start suing wanting compensation for that! WTF? Now they have to put kids in "school" (i.e. Obamamentory School). And that just raises OUR fucking taxes!!!!!! I don't know about you guys but if you compare that antifreedomization to the $300 we got from the Bush tax cuts I'm taking my $300!!! $300!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry to interrupt but why was this post wider than all the others?

[yeahwho]

do you ever wonder why "Made In America" is almost extinct?
-US tax rates
-US Govt hurdles and regulations on businesses
-an administration in bed with the unions (see Detroit for how well a heavily unionized workforce makes for a good standard of living)
-did I mention taxes?
-did I mention layers of beauracracy?
-massive govt healthcare mandates
-did I mention taxes?
-need for tort reform
-out of whack environmental regulation

its no wonder businesses move their operating bases to other countries

Did you mention being a responsible corporate citizen? Or is it "Fuck USA' we the corporate manufacturer's only want your dwindling dollars USA. Our jobs go to communist China and other countries that turn a blind eye to child labor, the environment and health.

I see you've embraced the Republican NO bandwagon that is destroying our Country.

[yeahwho]

-an administration in bed with the unions (see Detroit for how well a heavily unionized workforce makes for a good standard of living)


I just looked at Detroit (http://www.bls.gov/web/metro/laummtrk.htm)

[Sir SkratchaLot]

sorry to interrupt but why was this post wider than all the others?

Because I pay taxes and I don't want the Federal government coming around telling me how wide my posts can be. Only God or Rush Limbaugh can tell me what to do.

[kaiser soze]

Maybe the U.S. should just start a war on it's own soil -

Hey at least we will send billions to ourselves!

[Echewta]

I just looked at Detroit (http://www.bls.gov/web/metro/laummtrk.htm)

Motown is still bringing in some cash so thats not fair.

[yeahwho]

The UAW has a new president I'm pretty impressed with, Bob King (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/10/opinion/10herbert.html?ref=bob_king).

Wealth distribution in the US has incrementally destroyed the middle class. Scroll down this link (http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html) (which BTW is an excellent read) to see the statistical change is wealth since 1983.

I hate to say this but I've come to the conclusion that since the republican party has a campaign of NO to every bill presented by this administration I will have a campaign of NO to every republican that runs for office this election.

[valvano]

Motown is still bringing in some cash so thats not fair.

motown moved out of Detroit in the 1970s/early 1980s ...

[valvano]

I just looked at Detroit (http://www.bls.gov/web/metro/laummtrk.htm)

are you bragging about a 14.3% unemployment rate?

[valvano]

The UAW has a new president I'm pretty impressed with, Bob King (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/10/opinion/10herbert.html?ref=bob_king).

Wealth distribution in the US has incrementally destroyed the middle class. Scroll down this link (http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html) (which BTW is an excellent read) to see the statistical change is wealth since 1983.

I hate to say this but I've come to the conclusion that since the republican party has a campaign of NO to every bill presented by this administration I will have a campaign of NO to every republican that runs for office this election.

so people don't work for their incomes anymore, it just gets distributed to them???

[travesty]

I hate to say this but I've come to the conclusion that since the republican party has a campaign of NO to every bill presented by this administration I will have a campaign of NO to every republican that runs for office this election.

You don't hate to say it all. Like you ever had enough backbone to vote for a Republican anyway. No big loss for the GOP I'm sure.

However it does bring up how Obama has conitnued to exacerbate the political divide that has been growing for a decade or more now.The Republicans have opposed most of the Dems legislation...duhhh that's what they're supposed to do. Obama and the Dems only make it worse by ignoring GOP proposals and the vicious cycle continues. If you think the economic middle class has been destroyed, I think the same is happening to the political middle ground. There isn't any anymore. Enjoy it while you can if your folks are in power now because when the tables turn, I pormise you, the GOP are going to make Obama and the Dems look like incompetent dullards at ramming through idealogical legislation. Someone needs to bridge the Gap between the two and get America back on nuetral gound before that happens or the wild fluctuations of policy will damn us all.

[yeahwho]

That is correct, it just gets distributed to them via whatever the boss feels your worth, not the going rate in todays economy of the US, we're talking distributed in a global economy of which the lowest bidder sets your wage.

Otherwise how can the extremely wealthy continue to become even more wealthy?

The last thriving Middle Class was working because of the fact that a strong progressive tax system was in place at this period of time. Under the Eisenhower Administration (the last decent Republican Administration we have had) the top tax rate was 90%. The top tax rate was 70% before the Reagan Administration began the assault upon middle class with its disastrous theory of "trickle down economics". In 30 years Republican Administrations brought the top rate down to 35% and promoted their fiscally insane policies of borrow and spend.

How the fuck is the current tax structure ever going to work when the corporations who became successful on our backs leave? They split our land. They said Fuck You USA under the guise of a Global Community which requires our tax dollars to support the wars that keep them fluid. I'm an US citizen who has stayed the fuck out of Wal-Mart style stores for years.

When will it become clear to all of those who profess such patriotic bullshit that they too, will support US businesses which create US jobs other than service jobs?

[travesty]

The Suckers Lament.

Until you realize that you are worth exactly what you are getting paid, no more and no less, you will continue to blame other people for your problems in life. You libs wanted globalization and NAFTA and a "working wage" for the third world and now you're getting it and you're still not happy. You want to tax the wealthy more than other people and when they move their companies offshore you blame them for being "unpatriotic" and "Heartless". What did you think was going to happen? Newsflash, your worth in the workforce is only as much as the lowest bidder, period.

As long as Americans turn their souls over to a God, Their careers over to a Union, their wellbeing to the government and their opinions to the mass media they will always have other people to blame for their problems and they will never have to be responsible for their own actions. Life here in America has got to suck with that mindset...why would you even stay here?
No one is fucking you but you. You can be anything you want to be in America...quit choosing to be a victim.

[Echewta]

Jesus Travesty, at least I haven't been convicted of drug fraud. Doesn't that mean anything?

[yeahwho]

I must of hit a raw nerve or open sore I see travesty is posting again. :p

[travesty]

people pissing and moaning about how OTHER people are responsible for their lives being shitty in America is the rawest nerve I have. I'm glad you finally took me off ignore, I'll try and be nicer.

[Schmeltz]

your worth in the workforce is only as much as the lowest bidder, period.

You can be anything you want to be in America

If you don't see the powerful incongruity between these two statements you've made in a single breath, it's small wonder that what you have to say frequently makes so little sense.

Like that crock about Obama not listening to Republican proposals - in fact that's exactly why the healthcare package ultimately proved so worthless, and exactly why his administration is proving so inept at taking on the various social and economic crises afflicting your country: because they keep bending over backwards to accommodate the GOP, the fanatic ideologues who gave you Iraq and Katrina and deficits and recession. It's because Obama doesn't have the guts to turn around the GOP's worthless policies that he already looks like a dullard when it comes to getting the job done. He gives them too many inches when they've already put your country miles up the creek. That's the real problem here.

[travesty]

Fucking laughable Schmeltz...stick to the politics in your has-been of a country whose citizenry is content to wallow in collective mediocrity. Most of us don't want our country to become another "also ran" like yours has so pardon me if we don't like the direction this administration is taking us. If your OK with having been great, instead of being great then keep it to yourself. And if you think Obama has been bending over backwards to accommodate the GOP then you are obviously getting some pre-spun accounts of what is actually happening over here.

Do you care to refute the two statements of mine that you quoted or are you just going to continue dwelling in generalizations?

[Schmeltz]

Typical right-wing jingoism. Do you even know what country I'm from?

I don't need to refute those two statements, they refute each other. That's the point. If nobody in America is worth no more than the lowest possible common denominator, where on earth do you get off with this fantastic claim that anyone can be anything? Workers are trash who deserve no more than they get, but anyone can be rich if they just work hard enough? It just doesn't make any sense. But then I've come to expect that from conservatives.

[valvano]

Typical right-wing jingoism. Do you even know what country I'm from?

I don't need to refute those two statements, they refute each other. That's the point. If nobody in America is worth no more than the lowest possible common denominator, where on earth do you get off with this fantastic claim that anyone can be anything? Workers are trash who deserve no more than they get, but anyone can be rich if they just work hard enough? It just doesn't make any sense. But then I've come to expect that from conservatives.


I guess you never heard of Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, etc. Even blowhard Rush Limbaugh started off as some AM radio station DJ flunkie, now look at him...

I guess hard work, smartness, taking risks, etc had nothing to do with these folks current successes?

[Sir SkratchaLot]

I guess you never heard of Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, etc. Even blowhard Rush Limbaugh started off as some AM radio station DJ flunkie, now look at him...

I guess hard work, smartness, taking risks, etc had nothing to do with these folks current successes?

And if you listen Rush and say, out loud, "I do care, I will be rich" over and over, then it will happen! You can do it! "My examples are not anecdotal." Say it! It makes it true. You too can be rich one day if you just care enough and put in some hard American work. If you care enough, the system will not be inherently designed to make the insanely wealthy even more wealthy at the expense of the lower and middle class. "I do care, I do care!" If everyone at home reading this says it, it will come true! Cum on everybody!

[Bob]

if it weren't for those damn liberals holding us back this could be an entire country full of bill gates and rush limbaughs, and we could design robots and subservient chimps to do our low wage labor. and we could treat them like dirt! DIRT!

[travesty]

Typical right-wing jingoism. Do you even know what country I'm from?
It doesn't matter to me. No matter where you are from, I don't want my country to be like yours. Our country, for now, is still very different from any other and I like it that way. Call that whatever -ism you want.

I don't need to refute those two statements, they refute each other. That's the point. If nobody in America is worth no more than the lowest possible common denominator, where on earth do you get off with this fantastic claim that anyone can be anything? Workers are trash who deserve no more than they get, but anyone can be rich if they just work hard enough? It just doesn't make any sense. But then I've come to expect that from conservatives.

All things being equal the lowest cost provider always wins regardless of your political system. There is no exception to this rule. The thing is that very rarely are all things equal. In human labor variables such as experience, creativity, strength, etc, etc. never make human workers exactly equal to each other in all but the most basic of jobs. However, your liberal ideaology of enslavement in unions and collective working scenarios would have the labor force valued not on human variables, merits, or intangibles but simply on showing up at the place of employement during the assigned hours and providing the required minimum service. It is the most dehumanizing way to spend a life; as that of a robot. It's not the conservative ideology that decides that workers are only worth the price of the lowest bidder but rather the progressives who prefer to set an arbitrary market value for an increment of labor regardless of the quality of output. IF that's the case then "showing up" is the only requirement for continued employment and the value of your human life has been reduced to that of robot or computer or SLAVE. What short sighted progressive idiots fail to recognize with this scenario is that it virtually ensures that when the employer locates another workforce willing to "show up" for an abitrary value of labor less than the current workforce then they will hire that goup (GASP!) move the company to that country or worse replace the worker with automation. The more you believe in progressive/scoialist ideals the more the statement that workers are only worth that of the lowest bidder holds true.

It is a little idealistic to say that anyone can be anything in America but it is certainly the country that affords the most opportunity to do so.

[valvano]

The UAW has a new president I'm pretty impressed with, Bob King (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/10/opinion/10herbert.html?ref=bob_king).

Wealth distribution in the US has incrementally destroyed the middle class. Scroll down this link (http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html) (which BTW is an excellent read) to see the statistical change is wealth since 1983.

I hate to say this but I've come to the conclusion that since the republican party has a campaign of NO to every bill presented by this administration I will have a campaign of NO to every republican that runs for office this election.

looks like some union bosses can afford to have their wealth shared as well:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=21533

[Sir SkratchaLot]

It doesn't matter to me. No matter where you are from, I don't want my country to be like yours. Our country, for now, is still very different from any other and I like it that way. Call that whatever -ism you want.

Where else have you been to? (FYI, the "North" is not another Country, nor is Dollywood.)

[Sir SkratchaLot]

looks like some union bosses can afford to have their wealth shared as well:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=21533

More anecdotal arguments? :eek:

[yeahwho]

looks like some union bosses can afford to have their wealth shared as well:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=21533

They negotiated some pretty sweet contracts, their worth it. And the product is from the USA! NBA (http://www.insidehoops.com/nbasalaries.shtml), NFL (http://www.ehow.com/facts_5005211_what-average-salary-nfl-players.html), the NBA has 435 players and the NFL has 1700 players. Pretty amazing economic organization which so far has been recession proof. (don't ask me about my beloved supersonics :mad: or fucking starbucks ceo howard schultz).

Why the sudden anti-union crusade? What a lost cause that is. Unions aren't part of the TARP program. They really have nothing to do with banking or insurance firms... that would be the heavily non-unionized predatory lending practices that currently are taking your tax dollars. The GM bailout has some questionable areas (http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2010/08/doing_the_math_on_obamas_detroit_bailout.html) but overall it has been extremely positive.

We have to have some sort of positivity and confidence to get this economy rolling. The bullshit I've heard from the Tea Party and Republican Party is just that. Do nothing and wait for the Republicans to borrow and spend while you get a tax break. WTF is that even suppose to mean? It's moronic.



I'm not proposing sharing wealth, I'm not promoting unionism. I'm not even sure why you would go out of your way to turn from tax codes to unions so quick. I guess that is your argument that unions are the reason we're not working currently.

It doesn't make any sense in the context of the current economic crisis we've realized.

[travesty]

Psssshht....Predatory Lending?

Someone offers to lend money to someone who doesn't have any, doesn't have any collateral and it is highly questionable that it will ever get paid back and the fucking Dems want to call it Predatory Lending. How is that not Predatory Borrowing? In business we call the scenario Angel Investing or Venture Funding and the lenders are praised for "taking a chance" to help someone out, or for risking their money to invest in a community or create jobs. But somehow now we need to blame and demonize the lenders for giving money to people who otherwise would never have had access to it? Am I in bazzarro world or isn't this exactly what you self-loathing liberals have been wanting all along? This is your wet dream. Fucking Robin Hood and Mother Theresa all rolled into one. You want the people with the money to give it to the people without the money right? Well, we did. We even forced the banks to do it. No surprise it ended up screwing us all. How many times are the Dems going to to continue to slam their dicks in the door with shit like this before they actually learn something? You people have seriously lost your minds.

As for GM...a $40k car that gets 1/2 the electric range of it's competitor and costs $10k more while carrying less passengers and cargo is positive? Oh you must mean the $7500 credit that all of us productive citizens are kicking in to help you buy an obsolete vehicle? Again, you must be insane. The Chevy Volt is exactly what you will get with your government run healthcare... mediocrity and higher prices....enjoy. (n)

[Schmeltz]

It doesn't matter to me. No matter where you are from, I don't want my country to be like yours.

It matters to me. You went off on a stream of borderline racist invective about the history and current condition of my country of origin and now you're backpedalling because you've realized you don't even know what country that is (that's not an -ism, it's an -ocy, specifically idiocy). You're sacrificing your credibility for what appears to be no reason at all. Very strange. I've explicitly stated where I'm from multiple times on this board, too, so it's not like you couldn't have figured it out. I suspect you're just not intelligent enough to do it (as the rest of your post seems to bear out), but at the risk of improving this thread into an international pissing contest here's a couple of hints:

1) I am from a country that did not have to bail out its financial system during the recent financial crisis - no government money was directed to banks or lending institutions.

2) I am from a country that weathered the global recession extremely well and just this year set new national records for job creation and diminished unemployment, while the value of the national currency rose steadily against that of your own.

3) I am from a country that guarantees its citizenry free healthcare and is not subject to insurance-industry lobbies that restrict the citizenry's access to medical assistance.

4) I am from a country with a fraction of the gun crime that characterizes yours, in spite of a comparable rate of firearm ownership.

5) I am from a country that consistently outranks yours on the Human Development Index and other such global yardsticks of national health, wealth, and happiness.

Use those clues to figure it out! Along the way you might want to consider exactly why it is that you don't want the USA to be like my country. I think if your country were more like mine you might be a happier and more well-off person.

All things being equal the lowest cost provider always wins regardless of your political system... The thing is that very rarely are all things equal.[/quote]

So all things being equal the lowest bidder always wins... but all things are not equal so the lowest bidder always wins. Again, you're just not making any sense.

However, your liberal ideaology of enslavement in unions and collective working scenarios would have the labor force valued not on human variables, merits, or intangibles but simply on showing up at the place of employement during the assigned hours and providing the required minimum service.

If people are consistently evaluated according to the lowest possible common denominator, all you will get from them is the lowest possible minimum service. That's a no-brainer. The labour force has no other commodity to sell to a labour market but its time and effort. If the capitalists who run the labour market consistently devalue that commodity, they will receive diminishing returns on a diminishing investment. That's a no-brainer. It's not progressives who assign value to labour forces, it's progressives who fight to maintain that value at a level that provides a decent wage and standard of living to their members. American workers don't want to be robots like the Chinese and the Indians. That's why they unionize. You have it all backwards (no surprises there).

[QUOTE=travesty;1740114]Am I in bazzarro world /QUOTE]

Sure seems like it to me.

[travesty]

let me reiterate, I don't care what country you live in. If it's so great then quit worrying about what we do here and what I think about it. But I suspect your interest in our political system has something to do with the fact that your country is inexorably tied to ours economically or otherwise. Besides I've spent plenty of time in the Great White North, it's a nice place to visit but....I am plenty happy and plenty well off here. Enjoy the snow.

If people are consistently evaluated according to the lowest possible common denominator, all you will get from them is the lowest possible minimum service. That's a no-brainer.
Yet that is what a union does. It puts no other requirement on labor other than meeting a minimum standard of attendance. Exceptional or outstanding work is not rewarded and substandard work is rarely penalized. If you want steady mediocre output....call in union work force. But I guess that's th liberal dream right? It's good to be mediocre as long as EVERYONE is mediocre. I'm begginning to understand.
The labour force has no other commodity to sell to a labour market but its time and effort.
Except creativity, innovation, entrepenuership and intelligence. All of which a progressive system chooses to ignore.

If the capitalists who run the labour market consistently devalue that commodity, they will receive diminishing returns on a diminishing investment.
Who are "the capitalists who run the labour market" and how are they devaluing it?

It's not progressives who assign value to labour forces, it's progressives who fight to maintain that value at a level that provides a decent wage and standard of living to their members.
Yeah minimum wage is a conservative dictate. Please. How do you fight to maintain something at an artificially determined level without "assigning a value". Your statement contradicts itself, as does all progressive labor policy. You all think you are worth far more than you actually get paid. Self-righteous delusions of grandeur.

American workers don't want to be robots like the Chinese and the Indians. That's why they unionize.
Yes they do, a lot of them do. Americans have been complaining about losing their "robot" jobs for decades now. "They took our jobs!" Lots of Americans choose to take robot like jobs and find themselves very content with them and make a good life with them. The system needs these jobs. In fact ask most folks how life was in Detroit 25 years ago when most of the city had "robot" jobs. I'm pretty sure most of them would take those jobs in a heartbeat today. Thanks to the Unions, those jobs are pretty scarce right now because they either A) bankrupted the companies with artificially high wages and pensions, B) forced them offshore to remain competitive or C) the company replaced them with automation in order to remain viable. Now those guys are flipping burgers if they even have a job at all and still can't understand why America is losing manufacturing jobs. This has been going on for decades now and the progressives still want to ignore the blatant facts and blame the evil corporations for being greedy.
You have it all backwards (no surprises there).

[Sir SkratchaLot]

It doesn't matter to me. No matter where you are from, I don't want my country to be like yours. Our country, for now, is still very different from any other and I like it that way. Call that whatever -ism you want.

It matters to me.

Well you ain't from Amerca so you don't know what uR talkin' 'bout! Trust me, I've been to Cananda and I went to Cancun for vacation onest and when you go to get a "large" Cocacola at McDonalds that thang ain't even large, it's medium! You call that freedom? See, me and my friends all stay within a 120 mile radius and we all think the same way, like the same things, and watch the same sports (Nascar and AMERICAN Football) and we've never really been anywhere else or seen anything else so that qualifies me to say "AMERICA NUMBER 1!!!" If you don't like it, then go back to Switzerland or whaterver else Country youst came frum with your "high standards of living" and "engineering genius" and "large mediums cokes at McDonalds." I'll be right here in the good ole US of A drinking a real large Coke, pissing on you. Take that Frenchy!!!!

[yeahwho]

Unions did not put the US worker in the current recession. The banking and insurance industry threw America under the bus because they could. Why not? They had no regulations to stop them from taking every last penny each sucker had in America.

Then when the time came to lose, to falter and fail... they put a gun up to our heads and said "You need to pay us billions, hundreds of billions of dollars or things will not be the same in America".

We gave them TARP. This current stretch of unemployment isn't because of unions, that is a scapegoat or some form of denial, it is not looking at the obvious. Your blaming the US work force, which just blows me away.

You live in a world where people struggling for an honest living are the problem. What I'm reading is the police dept, fire dept., shipwrights, plumbers, machinists, carpenters, electricians and all of those crazy maniacs trying to make $50,000 or more a year so they can pay a $1700+ mortgage caused double digit unemployment. That is impossible to comprehend.

That's a tough sell to anyone who just had their house foreclosed on due to businesses unable to get a loan to operate. Up here in Seattle I read that we had a banking failure and sub-prime mortgage crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932010). That is what happened in the Northwest. Where you live I guess the workforce stole all the money.

That is a republican mana. It makes no sense. None. If anything the opposite theory would hold true, unions have been in decline for the past 5 decades. 50 years. 12.3% of the US workforce is union (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm).

[travesty]

Get a grip yeawho. Let me break it down for you;
Unions have been causing businesse to fail or move offshore for decades. I never blamed them for the current recesion (although they are heavily to blame for the failure of GM and Chrysler and 100% of the reason Obama bailed them out).

Once again you continue to ignore history and facts. The banking industry sis not throw american under the bus "baecause they could". That is simply lefty propaganda. Ask yourself this; if they did it just because they could, why did it take them centuries to do it? Why weren't they doing this all along? What you continue to fail to recognize is that the Comminuty Re-Investment act FORCED banks to make laons that they would never have done on their own due to the risks involved. This was not something most banks chose to do on their own. Congress mandated it and government darlings Fanny and Fredie promoted it. That is fact sir. Re-write your own history if you want but don't expct rational people to buy in to it.

Once again I never blamed the unions for the current financial crises. I blame them for the slow continual decline of American production and fostering an environment of medicority in everything they touch.

People struggling for an honest living are not my problem. People absolving themselves of any repsonsibility for the state of their own lives IS MY #1 PROBLEM with anyone who does it. Those examples you cited ARE maniacs of they are trying to make $50,000 doing a job that is only worth $30,000 in the market. That is insanity and immoral . Yet the left thinks it is perfectly acceptable to pay people some arbitrary number they pull out of their ass just so nobody's feelings get hurt. If you want to set an artifical salary for everyone then you need to live in China. They make sure everyone has a "living wage" over there, you just have to be willing to accept what someone else considers a "living wage" instead of deciding that for yourself. I choose not to live with my worth being decided by anyone other than me. If you are OK with that then you are a fool. At the end of the day the current crisis is a result of people living beyoned their means. Some used credit cards to do it, some borrowed for houses they shouldn't have, some were simply getting paid more than they should have been. Most of us were guilty of it some way or another. America as a whole has been living beyond it's means for decades. The correction had to come and those who were most cuplable are going to be the ones most hurt. No one is innocent here, we've been living in la-la land since the sixties. Life isn't fair and no matter how hard you bleeding heart liberals try, you can't make it fair. By trying you only make it worse.

With liberty comes risk. No one is guaranteed that they will be able to make all of their house payment. No one is guaranteed they will be able to make the car payment. That is a risk you take when you sign that contract. It's called responsibility. I know that is a foreign concept for you.

[yeahwho]

I'm completely at a lost for all of the union bashing and redneck "liberal bleeding heart" stereotyping. I've had harsher words on this site than anyone has had for the current administration but most of it lost on you because I guess I'm just not vitriolic enough in my sentences.

It's obvious you believe failure is acceptable and a lower standard of living for millions seems fine for you. Basically societal problems are not your responsibility. More power to the hustlers and shakers, they all earned that money straight up, from your Federal Income Tax Withheld each paycheck.

Schmeltz has you nailed perfectly.

[travesty]

On a side note Schmeltz;

In 2009 Canda had a population of 33,894,000 and during that year 22,508 (http://www.dhs.gov/files/statistics/publications/LPR09.shtm) of your fellow countrymen and women decided it would better to live in the USA and immigrated here legally. That's one in every 1505 Canadian citizens who decided to ditch the land you claim is so superior, renounce their citizenship and start new lives in America. In fact I personally know 3 of them who have come here in the last decade.

On the flip side in 2008 (lastest available data) the USA had a population of 307,006,550 (legally) and only 11,216 (http://epe.lac-bac.gc.ca/100/201/301/facts_figures_immigration_overview/2008/english/resources/statistics/facts2008/permanent/10.asp) of them decided to leave the terrible, backwards USA and go the land you espouse to be so fantastic and a model for who we and the rest of the world should strive to emulate. That's one in every 27,372.

WOW! According to the numbers Schmeltz your countrymen are 1800% more likely to leave Canada to come to America than the other way around. What gives?? I thought Canada was supposed to be way better than America, it's supposed to be AWESOME! Look, I'm glad you love your country bro and I'm glad you are proud of it and think it is on the right track. However please don't try and tell us how to run our country, we'll manage just fine without you.

[travesty]

I'm completely at a lost for all of the union bashing and redneck "liberal bleeding heart" stereotyping.
Because you are part of the problem. It's hard to see when you are so ensconced in it.
I've had harsher words on this site than anyone has had for the current administration but most of it lost on you because I guess I'm just not vitriolic enough in my sentences.
BWahahah funny bro. If you have ever uttered a harsh word for Obama it's that maybe he didn't wipe well enough before you stuck your nose up his ass.

It's obvious you believe failure is acceptable and a lower standard of living for millions seems fine for you. Once again you can't understand simple logic. Failure is acceptable, it happens every day. Buinsesses fail, individuals fail. Donald Trump went bankrupt 3 times. Removing the option of failure from life (as liberals want to do) removes liberty and choice itself. By removing the option for failure your remove the very thing that makes us human...free will. You just want other people to make everything safe for you. You want them to guarantee your success and livlihood. You want them to guarantee you will never fail. I get that bro some people need their mommy for the rest of their lives.

Basically societal problems are not your responsibility.
They are all of our problems. I am just not arrogant enough to presume that I can solve YOUR poblems better than you can solve them for yourself. I'm willing to help but I am not going to force my solutions on you. Please be courteous enough to not force yours on me.

More power to the hustlers and shakers, they all earned that money straight up, from your Federal Income Tax Withheld each paycheck. YOU FUCKING gave it to them bro, you and your self righteous democrat do-gooders handed it to them on a silver platter and now you want to try and pretend you didn't? That's a fucking laugh, you are delusional. When you get done researching the CRIA try looking into the HUD Equal Housing Mandates of 2003. Then tally up the to-date taxpayer money spent bailing out Fannie and Freddie. Then take at look at the rate of default recurrance for people who have had their mortgages Federally modified to avoid foreclosure (hint 65%!!!! They're fucking us all TWICE). Go ahead do your homework and come back when you can debate logically and are armed with real facts, not MSNBC propoganda and spin. Until then, please, please, please put me back on ignore.

[yeahwho]

OK Spock.