john boehner is the biggest fuckface in congress

[saz]

sure, there are a lot of fuckfaces in congress, but boehner is the biggest fuckface (http://images.politico.com/global/090105_boehner_oconnor.jpg) of all.

back when the financial reform bill was being bandied about, fuckface gave an address to "an enthusiastic crowd of bankers" (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/a-year-more-of-bank-reform-debate-likely-boehner-2010-03-17?reflink=MW_news_stmp), and said they should be "standing up for themselves" (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/a-year-more-of-bank-reform-debate-likely-boehner-2010-03-17?reflink=MW_news_stmp) in the face of "those little punk staffers" (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/a-year-more-of-bank-reform-debate-likely-boehner-2010-03-17?reflink=MW_news_stmp) who were drafting new regulations: "Don’t let those little punk staffers take advantage of you and stand up for yourselves. All of us are hearing from our friends and constituents on lack of credit, you can’t get a loan, the more your government takes and taxes, the more regulations you have to comply with the more cost you have there and less amount you are going to have available to loan to customers."

fuckface's goal was to have another year pass without any financial reform. anyways, back in february, boehner met up with the ceo of jp morgan chase, jamie dimon, "over drinks" (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703575004575043612216461790.html?m od=e2tw), and "made a pitch" (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703575004575043612216461790.html?m od=e2tw) to obtain the support of wall street as the "Republicans had stood up to Mr. Obama’s efforts to curb pay and impose new regulations (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703575004575043612216461790.html?m od=e2tw)." this was backed up by the chairman of the national republican senatorial committee, senator john cornyn, who said boehner "visited New York about twice a month (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/08/us/politics/08lobby.html) to try to tap into Wall Street's 'buyers remorse'" with the democrats. (as a result, "major Wall Street players began sending an increasing share of their donations (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703575004575043612216461790.html?m od=e2tw) to Republicans.")


A G.O.P. Leader Tightly Bound to Lobbyists (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/us/politics/12boehner.html)

By Eric Lipton
Published: September 11, 2010
The New York Times

House Democrats were preparing late last year for the first floor vote on the financial regulatory overhaul when Representative John A. Boehner of Ohio and other Republican leaders summoned more than 100 industry lobbyists and conservative political activists to Capitol Hill for a private strategy session.

The bill’s passage in the House already seemed inevitable. But Mr. Boehner and his deputies told the Wall Street lobbyists and trade association leaders that by teaming up, they could still perhaps block its final passage or at least water it down.

“We need you to get out there and speak up against this,” Mr. Boehner said that December afternoon, according to three people familiar with his remarks, while also warning against cutting side deals with Democrats.

That sort of alliance — they won a few skirmishes, though they lost the war on the regulatory bill — is business as usual for Mr. Boehner, the House minority leader and would-be speaker if Republicans win the House in November. He maintains especially tight ties with a circle of lobbyists and former aides representing some of the nation’s biggest businesses, including Goldman Sachs, Google, Citigroup, R. J. Reynolds, MillerCoors and UPS.

They have contributed hundreds of thousands of dollars to his campaigns, provided him with rides on their corporate jets, socialized with him at luxury golf resorts and waterfront bashes and are now leading fund-raising efforts for his Boehner for Speaker campaign, which is soliciting checks of up to $37,800 each, the maximum allowed.

Some of the lobbyists readily acknowledge routinely seeking his office’s help — calling the congressman and his aides as often as several times a week — to advance their agenda in Washington. And in many cases, Mr. Boehner has helped them out.

From 2000 to 2007, Mr. Boehner flew at least 45 times, often with his wife, Debbie, on corporate jets provided by companies including R. J. Reynolds. (As required, Mr. Boehner reimbursed part of the costs.)

In addition, over the last decade he has taken 41 other trips paid for by corporate sponsors or industry groups, often to popular golf spots. That makes him one of the top House beneficiaries of such travel, which has recently been curbed as a result of changes in ethics rules.

Mr. Boehner continues to travel to golf destinations on a corporate-subsidized tab, though now it is paid for through his political action committee, the Freedom Project. In the last 18 months, it has spent at least $67,000 at the Ritz-Carlton Naples in Florida, at least $20,000 at the Robert Trent Jones Golf Club in Gainesville, Va., and at least $29,000 at the Muirfield Village Golf Club in Dublin, Ohio, federal records show, for fund-raising events.


in his entire career, fuckface has received $3.4 million (http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/industries.php?cycle=Career&cid=N00003675&type=I) from the finance industry, that's $1.2 million more (http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/industries.php?cycle=Career&cid=N00003675&type=I) than any other industry.



Top Industries
John Boehner

Campaign Finance Cycle: Career

Insurance = $1,035,496
Securities & Investment = $790,336
Misc Manufacturing & Distributing = $692,766
Retired = $640,434
Commercial Banks = $577,519
Health Professionals = $575,386
Real Estate = $520,898
Electric Utilities = $489,530
Lawyers/Law Firms = $472,491
Pharmaceuticals/Health Products = $464,380
Automotive = $325,417
General Contractors = $313,552
Food Processing & Sales = $307,915
Lobbyists = $299,490
Retail Sales = $293,107
Food & Beverage = $291,908
Accountants = $282,776
Oil & Gas = $277,850
Hospitals/Nursing Homes = $268,950
Beer, Wine & Liquor = $265,225

Sector Totals

Agribusiness:

Total - $1,423,538
PACs - $1,080,873
Individuals - $342,665

Communications/Electronics

Total - $810,213
PACs - $665,297
Individuals - $144,916

Construction

Total - $765,102
PACs - $368,965
Individuals - $396,137

Defense

Total - $200,025
PACs - $170,625
Individuals - $29,400

Energy & Natural Resources

Total - $982,898
PACs - $796,330
Individuals - $186,568

Finance, Insurance & Real Estate

Total - $3,742,665
PACs - $2,652,075
Individuals - $1,090,590

Health

Total - $1,539,347
PACs - $1,258,733
Individuals - $280,614

Lawyers & Lobbyists

Total - $771,981
PACs - $231,480
Lobbyists - $540,501

Transportation

Total - $807,732
PACs - $646,540
Individuals - $161,192

Misc Business

Total - $2,392,779
PACs - $1,384,234
Individuals - $1,008,545

Labor

Total - $239,675
PACs - $239,675
Individuals - $0

Ideological/Single-Issue

Total - $522,884
PACs - $282,004
Individuals - $240,880

Other

Total - $797,159
PACs - $43,600
Individuals - $753,559

fuckface (http://riverdaughter.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/boehner2.jpg).

[Lex Diamonds]

I've never heard of him, but his name's basically Johnny Boner so I'm inclined to agree with you.

[kaiser soze]

don't forget tobacco!

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/12/ftn/main6858709.shtml

Among the lobbyists backing Boehner: The tobacco industry, which has contributed at least $340,000 to his political campaigns. The top individual donor throughout Boehner's political career, according to data from the Center for Public Integrity, is Bruce Gates, a lobbyist for the cigarette maker Altria.

stinky!

[yeahwho]

Beautiful post and really does anyone really need to know more about the obviousness of the republican party than the above post?

John Boehner is the 21st Minority Leader of the United States House of Representatives, the top dog republican carrying the water and licking the boots of the rich and powerful while leading the charge against every piece of legislation presented by the Obama administration.

This is batshit crazy stuff and those who try and convince people of republican alternatives to the already corporate entrenched democrats don't get it. They continue on a spiraling argument of left/right that only distracts looking closely at what is really happening, the ruling class is defining itself through our ignorance.

[Lex Diamonds]

Sounds like a real stiffy.

[travesty]

I don't know about the BIGGEST fuckface in congress as Pelosi is still there, but Boehner is a douchebag and a prototypical lobbyist sponge. Not that they all aren't to a degree but this guy typifies all that is worng with Washington.

[saz]

boehner is clearly the biggest fuckface, whereas pelosi's face is just fucked up (http://orangejuiceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Nancy-Pelosi-at-the-DPOC.jpg) (botox). otherwise you're spot on. (y)

[valvano]

sounds to me like you are so scared of him you have wet your panties...:D

last time I checked, tobacco is a legal product...and govt sure does make a lot of money from tobacco taxes...

[yeahwho]

Most consumer products are legal and all sorts of despicable behavior is legal, we live in the land of the free and I wouldn't want to change anything.

But just because taking money for your political ends is legal it doesn't necessarily make the politician better. Like it's been said before Congress should wear NASCAR style outfits so it's upfront who they represent while watching CSPAN.

[saz]

sounds to me like you are so scared of him you have wet your panties...:D

yeah, i'm scared of a corrupt, corporate and lobbyist ass kissing fuckface.

thanks though for the relevant, thoughtful, considerate and insightful contribution to my thread.

[travesty]

I was listening to some doosh sit in for Rush today talking about how Obama has started attacking Boehner and how Boehner is such is upstanding guy because he has never taken an earmark or any pork back to OH. While I support the reduction and/or elimination of earmarks it made me think that people like Boehner get supported financially (read; PAID) by all these lobbyists to produce results for them in Washington and yet they are proud that they have never gotten any financial results in Washington for the people who actually elected them.
I know all politicians take money and deliver results to someone, usually special interest and corporations, so they really shouldn't be so smug about not taking earmarks. Seems like they're saying "we've been working our ass for everyone BUT the people who elected us".

[valvano]

the truth:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8009943/John-Boehner-the-second-of-12-kids-from-Ohio-who-is-Barack-Obamas-elitist-target.html

[saz]

who gives a flying fuck if boehner came from a working class background. the bottom line is that just like travesty said, fuckface is a douchebag and a prototypical lobbyist sponge, who typifies all that is wrong with washington.

[valvano]

who gives a flying fuck if boehner came from a working class background. the bottom line is that just like travesty said, fuckface is a douchebag and a prototypical lobbyist sponge, who typifies all that is wrong with washington.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2010/09/lobbying_and_left

game...set...match

[saz]

i'm not a democrat, and the majority of them are whores for wall street just like the republicans are. the sad thing is, however, is that you have actually attempted to defend fuckface (http://www.onepennysheet.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/JohnBoehnerWeeping381x187.jpg).

[valvano]

i'm not a democrat, and the majority of them are whores for wall street just like the republicans are. the sad thing is, however, is that you have actually attempted to defend fuckface (http://www.onepennysheet.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/JohnBoehnerWeeping381x187.jpg).


not as sad as you attacking fuckface while ignoring the bigger fuckface...:D

[saz]

whatever.

[valvano]

whatever.

^ ha ha ha :D

[saz]

yeah, ha ha ha.

[valvano]

yeah, ha ha ha.

yeah, ha ha ha you can't criticize pelosi and the rest of the democrats of being twice the whore to lobbyists that boehner is......

[Bob]

yeah, ha ha ha you can't criticize pelosi and the rest of the democrats of being twice the whore to lobbyists that boehner is......

"whores for wall street" isn't a criticism?

[yeahwho]

What is the point of this debate? Is it fact as in who has taken the most money? Politicians all need, take and whore out for money as a way of survival. These people are professionals, they hire professional advisers who openly create money making schemes to enhance the professional politicians careers.

Pelosi and Boehner are not unlike their pro=sports counterparts, they promote themselves to special interests who will then in turn become supporters of the politician who makes them happy.

But just like Pro-sports or even fantasy sports statistics tell you facts about the players, Boenher has been a pro for 3 years less than Pelosi, yet his career has stats to prove he's the best at making money $21,072,448 (http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cid=N00003675&cycle=Career) since 1990. While Pelosi only managed to garner $11,850,706 (http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cycle=Career&cid=N00007360&type=I) since 1987.

The overall statistics are never going to favor Pelosi in a game of Fantasy Politician for cash gathering.

[travesty]

I don't think an incumbent, uber-liberal Democrat needs to raise much money to continuously win in the heart of San Francisco. That seat has been Democrat since 1952, and her District has the third highest Cook PVI rating of a Democratic district anywhere in the US. I'm pretty sure she doesn't even have to campaign any more.

[yeahwho]

So it isn't the fact that John Boehner has raised twice as much money as Pelosi anymore? It's now about how Pelosi cruises with those whacked out San Franciscans. The uber liberal voters didn't go further left when anti war activist Cindy Sheehan ran against Pelosi in 2008.

The same Pelosi who infuriated many normal people when she stated Bush Impeachment `Off the Table’ (http://www.nytimes.com/cq/2006/11/08/cq_1916.html).

The point or the idea I believe saz is trying to get across is accurate and applied evenly across the US Congress, we are basically being represented by shills and John Boener is the biggest shill of them all, raising double of what Pelosi raised from industry while being an elected politician 3 years less.

Both of them disgust me on a level that leaves behind the democrat vs. republican mindset. They are performers who raise money and fight hard for the corporate way, the status quo... the richest of the rich. The middle class has been destroyed, literally it's being squashed as we try and figure out if it's the Republicans or Democrats fault.

Neither the democrats or republicans are fighting for the American Way, "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They are promoting servitude and succeeding. It's like a script, the Obama administration comes up with sone grandiose idea to help the American people and the Republicans all stand shoulder to shoulder and shout NO! Then the democrats throw their arms up in the air, act exasperated and do nothing right along with the republicans,

That is not representative government. We have been played.

[travesty]

the Obama administration comes up with sone grandiose idea to help the American people

Bwahahaha..... like what? Raising the cost of health care? Delivering millions of new customers to the insurance companies on a silver platter? Borrowing trillions to create no new jobs? Limiting the availability of student loans? Bailing out greedy, company looting unions? Crippling the economy with new energy taxes? Ignoring our immigration problems? Which of these "grandiose ideas" are going to help the American people?

I thought this thread was about who has taken the most lobbyist money. At the end of the day the Democrats have this one in the bag.....by a long shot (http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/contribs.php?type=r) The Dem Senatorial and congressional Committees received, as a whole, over DOUBLE the amount of special interest money than the Republicans did. No to mention that the top 6 (and maybe more) individual lobbyist $$$$ recipients....ALL DEMOCRAT. The WORST offender is in fact, YOUR SENATOR from WA Patty Murray. She whores it out in a manner that Boehner could only dream of. Remember that next time you vote straight party ticket.

[yeahwho]

The thing that always amazes me about you travesty is your hatred for unions yet you nary criticize the paper movers who outsourced our jobs overseas, attached variable interest rates as high as 33% and currently pay out an average of below 1% on a savings account. The bankers and paper changers who still have no qualms of gaining access to your paycheck for their mistakes. The unions have failed miserably in the past 6 decades and the economy/middle class/american jobs have too. Is their no correlation to this in your mind? Your beating a dead horse and blaming unions for the sluggish economy, this is the non-union corporate structure running our country today.

Patty Murray is a professional political entity who now has the race of her life going against another Washington State politician, republican Dino Rossi. As strong as Murray is Rossi just may have found a way to win the senate seat, after losing his gubernatorial bid in 2008 (which BTW he said he would not run for Public Office again) and losing his gubernatorial bid in 2004 by 133 votes out of 28 million votes cast. They recounted until they figured the democrat had won.

Anyway I'm still mystified how Murray is the big winner in your numbers, if you look at PAC money distribution the percentage and cash winner between Boehner and Murray is Boehner. The numbers your presenting are the LD203 numbers which are incomplete, only 2009 is truly represented and paints an incomplete story.

Here is a representative look at how Boehner/Murray compare in their political careers, 44%/$9,329,639 (http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cycle=Career&type=C&cid=N00003675&newMem=N) of Boehner's political contributions have come from PAC's, While Murray received 20%/$7,531,447 (http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cycle=Career&type=C&cid=N00007876&newMem=N) from PACS.

Recapping the above numbers,
Patty Murray received in her career to date, PAC contributions as 20% of her campaign cash.
John Boehner's received in his career to date, PAC contributions as 44% of his campaign cash.

Murray kicks Boehners ass in individual career contributions $28,349,783 (75% of her campaign cash) People actually do like her, especially Moms, she has insane enemies (http://www.seattlepi.com/local/417979_murray06.html).

Boehners individual contributions $9,644,731 (46% of his campaign cash). His enemies are all over the place but not really as insane as Murray's.

Murray has been at this since 1992 and Boehner been doing this since 1990.

Both are pros at keeping the status quo. Why would they really give a fuck about changing anything? Look at that cash!!! It's business as usual
while they reside over the mess they've been part of creating. This is not representative government for the 330 million citizens paying real taxes.

[valvano]

The thing that always amazes me about you travesty is your hatred for unions yet you nary criticize the paper movers who outsourced our jobs overseas,

can you name 5 heavily unionized sectors which have grown over the past 3-4 decades besides govt employees/pro sports?

steel industry.....unions killed it
auto industry.....unions strangled it
trucking industry...last 3 major unionized carriers are sucking major wind
ship building.....moved overseas
railroads/airlines...forced to merge to survive, thereby killing competition

if unions were so natural, why do they require so much govt involvement just to stay alive???

[travesty]

The thing that always amazes me about you travesty is your hatred for unions yet you nary criticize the paper movers who outsourced our jobs overseas,

Riddle me this... why would a company ever consider outsourcing jobs overseas if they could get a competent, competitive workforce here at home? Think about that for a while.

The answer is that they wouldn't!!

Look according to the USBLS (http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/cm20030623ar01p1.htm) absurdly outdated, yet most recent, 2003 statistics) the average blue collar wage for a union worker was $18.36 per hour. The average wage for a non-union worker in that same position was $14.81. According to rudimentary math employers utilizing a union workforce pay 24% more for the same labor as those emplyers who utilize a non-union workforce.
Which company is going to be more competitive and have the best chance of survival in this scenario? Which company is going to be less likely to outsource those jobs to non-union workers or even overseas?
I hate unions for the simple fact that they set artificial rates for labor which causes everything they touch to be artificalli inflated as well.

I know you see it from the side of the worker who makes more money for his family and I don't blame anyone for doing that...we all write our own ticket and I don't blame anyone for getting as much as they can. What I don't understand is that you think it is OK for this worker and his cronies to be paid more than their peers (at everyone else's, and their own, expense mind you) but when the executives of the same company do it you cry bloody murder.

So how many jobs do you think would still be around if US companies would have been paying 25% less for their labor over the last 4 or 5 decades? Or if Carter didn't start kissing China's ass? Or if Clinton didn't sign NAFTA?

Don't even get me started on Government employee salaries vs. the private sector.

Both are pros at keeping the status quo. Why would they really give a fuck about changing anything? Look at that cash!!! It's business as usual
while they reside over the mess they've been part of creating. This is not representative government for the 330 million citizens paying real taxes.



Careful, you're starting to sound like a tea partier.

[yeahwho]

Maybe you don't understand the point I'm making or your just holding onto some preconceived corporate mantra left over from the Reagan era, Unions have been on a decline since the 1950's. They have dwindled to tiny numbers and so has the middle class and separation of wealth in America.

I'm pointing out that it's incredibly ignorant to think the crisis we're into today is because of unions and union employees. Those jobs have been moved overseas, mostly to communist countries, real communists which must be natural to you. How do you like the non Christian and communists products you have in your house, do they make you happy while you rally against unions?

It's a stupid argument, Unions are 12.4% of the workforce today. Union employees saw a drop of 771,000 jobs out of the 15 million Union workers left in this past year. It's not as if Unions have some huge influence or are gaining momentum, it is the opposite. Membership is declining (http://agonist.org/files/active/2/historical%20union%20membership.gif). I think you are jealous because unions short changed Boehner.

[yeahwho]

Riddle me this... why would a company ever consider outsourcing jobs overseas if they could get a competent, competitive workforce here at home? Think about that for a while.

I thought about it, because profits dominate over the well being of your fellow country men. Paying minimum wage is too much for these companies are you kidding me? With less stringent regulation in regards to environment, worker safety and health care fuck it, the US citizen can suck balls as far as these companies are concerned. Boeing is currently spending 100's of millions correcting the shoddy ass work from international subbers, those middle class American union employees will do it the right way again, like they have for the past 6 decades.

The unions fought NAFTA like a motherfucker, more than any other organization, Nixon opened China relations, Carter coddled and every President down the line kept the status quo.

You can howl out democrat/republican till the cows are all tipped over I'm still not buying into it, this is a international power grab by the wealthiest people on earth and the US President(s) is just the usher, not the participant. Unions? Fucking unions are not even in the flower girl category, you had better rethink the unions place as far as them having any real threat to multi-international conglomerate domination. The union is a placebo for the worker bees who teach, put out fires and give you speeding tickets. Get over it.

The rest of us are collateral in the biggest ponzi scheme ever unleashed on earth.

[Bob]

one thing i wonder about the whole outsourcing thing: in order to get the manufacturing and call center and computer programming and whatever jobs back at this point, would our labor laws have to be competitive with the sweatshop conditions that companies can avail themselves of overseas (where conditions are allowed to be so bad that some buildings literally have nets around the windows to keep the workers from killing themselves (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1285980/Revealed-Inside-Chinese-suicide-sweatshop-workers-toil-34-hour-shifts-make-iPod.html)), or would it just be as easy as shutting down the unions?

[kaiser soze]

Boeing is currently spending 100's of millions correcting the shoddy ass work from international subbers, those middle class American union employees will do it the right way again, like they have for the past 6 decades.



So true as proven in the Gulf Spill - while saving money they endanger themselves more, this is the nature of the game - High Stakes, low costs, until you fuck up and even then they wrangle their way out of it.

No matter how low a company (insourced in the U.S.) goes, these companies will find another country that has even lower costs. Remember in some countries 1 USD is worth 100 of theirs.

[kaiser soze]

one thing i wonder about the whole outsourcing thing: in order to get the manufacturing and call center and computer programming and whatever jobs back at this point, would our labor laws have to be competitive with the sweatshop conditions that companies can avail themselves of overseas (where conditions are allowed to be so bad that some buildings literally have nets around the windows to keep the workers from killing themselves (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1285980/Revealed-Inside-Chinese-suicide-sweatshop-workers-toil-34-hour-shifts-make-iPod.html)), or would it just be as easy as shutting down the unions?

Don't worry, once the rich in China burn off all their resources (both natural and human), those jobs will come back here because our middle class will be so desperate they will take a $12 an hour job for $4 - and then all the products will finally say MADE IN THE USA

hooray!

[valvano]

Don't worry, once the rich in China burn off all their resources (both natural and human), those jobs will come back here because our middle class will be so desperate they will take a $12 an hour job for $4 - and then all the products will finally say MADE IN THE USA

hooray!

i'm just glad Obama has propped up GM and its unions with our tax money so it will look pretty for the Chinese when they start their IPO

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703989304575504132999973698.html

[travesty]

That's precisely correct. In the global marketplace we have priced ourselves out of jobs, for the time being. Our compartively decadent lifestyles over the last 40-50 years have made us, the US worker, the greatest perpetrator of a fraud in the in the world. We actually believe that we can pay ourselves more than any other workers in the world, for the same jobs, and still keep our companies in business and our jobs in tact. That is insane.

Yeawho, i think you're on the right track. I realize unions are declining, and personally i couldn't be happier. I think they are simply irrelevant mechanisms in today's marketplace. My problem is that our POTUS continues to try and prop them up and keep a dying pig on life support at the taxpayer expense.

As for Boeing bringing back jobs my understanding is that the decision was more of a knee jerk than long term planning. As the Dreamliner continues to face massive budget overruns due to design changes by propspective clients and lackluster initial sales the quickest and most cost effective way to rapid prototype, testing and implementation of changes was to bring some of those jobs back in house. I could be wrong but once the Dreamliner gets off the ground for good, those jobs are going to disappear again.

[yeahwho]

So maybe we will get the Hummer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hummer) back.

[yeahwho]

Regardless of what any candidate says or does, regardless of whether they say they are for labor or not, Obama is on the exact same page as Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, all the way back until Eisenhower. Dwight was cool.

None of these guys ever passed any legislation or bills that emboldened trade labor unions. They would take the cash, pay the lip service and open up every avenue possible to exploit the planet for more profits.

The problem is they sold out the American dream in the process. We've given away the goose that lays the golden egg to other countries all so the very richest can get richer. Our technology is freely given to China along with the rest of the world as long as they provide cheap labor, that maximizes the profit for that CEO and keeps the paper pushers, politicians and military apparatus status quo. There is no going back, people are figuring out the scheme, plausible deniability has been unearthed and those who say they want to change things know it is impossible.

Because the Greatest Nation on Earth gave away the Golden Goose. The democrats and the republicans did not represent the people, they still are not representing the people and have not given us any real plan to represent the people. And when I say people I mean We the People of the United States, sorry but I have to stay local and a bit isolated because we are the ones paying the taxes, bailouts and war costs.

We should be demanding true representative government. The transparency is there once people tune out conglomerate media sources.

[Bob]

That's precisely correct. In the global marketplace we have priced ourselves out of jobs, for the time being. Our compartively decadent lifestyles over the last 40-50 years have made us, the US worker, the greatest perpetrator of a fraud in the in the world. We actually believe that we can pay ourselves more than any other workers in the world, for the same jobs, and still keep our companies in business and our jobs in tact. That is insane.

but i mean, even if it weren't for the unions and employee-friendly (well, compared to china) labor law reforms, if we'd just let businesses do what they want without interference from governments or organized labor, would american manufacturing jobs today still be able to compete with what they can get away with in china and india etc. while still letting low wage workers live a lifestyle that doesn't make them literally want to kill themselves rather than work another 34 hour shift, or would we have to have suicide factories here too if we wanted to keep those jobs? do we, um, want those?

[kaiser soze]

it's all proportionate - we lower our standards and our intentional competitors will lower theirs

what baffles me is this - how did people make a pretty good living while working at an appliance store without any formal education with 2.5 kids and a stay at home wife 40 or so years ago?

[travesty]

they lived in a manner that we would call poverty today. They bought modest clothes, modest furnishings, modest cars and a modest home, if at all. They paid for things as they bought them and didn't buy them if they couldn't. The banks wouldn't let them. If you drive by any new construction neighborhood these days, our parents would have considered them mansions back then. People didn't HAVE to have two cars, a 3000 sq.ft. home, a 55" television and shop at whole foods in order to live a decent life and rasie two children. We are fat, spoiled and have become slaves to convenience.

If I told my wife I wanted to move into a 1200 sq.ft. 2B 1 bath ranch home sell one car and everything else that won't reasonably fit in that small house, she would castrate me even if I told her it meant that she could stay home with the kids permanently. I think Americans just don't accept that living like that is OK anymore. Once you drive a Cadillac it's hard to go back to a Kia....that's what Cadillac and WalMart and every other corporation is banking on.

[kaiser soze]

and you can't see my point

In 40 years the way WE LIVE will be considered poverty.

The people I am talking about lived happily, they could afford plane tickets, trips to Disney World, road trips, health care and the like.....their lives helped establish a foundation for many families today.

so where did that go wrong?

[yeahwho]

If I told my wife I wanted to move into a 1200 sq.ft. 2B 1 bath ranch home sell one car and everything else that won't reasonably fit in that small house, she would castrate me even if I told her it meant that she could stay home with the kids permanently. I think Americans just don't accept that living like that is OK anymore. Once you drive a Cadillac it's hard to go back to a Kia....that's what Cadillac and WalMart and every other corporation is banking on.

That is true and also the politicians want that to happen. But the part that Congress has quite gotten their minds wrapped around is when American Companies leave to build in other countries not only have they taken those jobs away, they've taken away a tax base and the new customers live in Hong Kong, Hong Kong has their own tax base. It's lose a lose scenario.

[Bob]

they lived in a manner that we would call poverty today. They bought modest clothes, modest furnishings, modest cars and a modest home, if at all. They paid for things as they bought them and didn't buy them if they couldn't.

but even that would be considered decadent compared to how workers live in sweatshop countries, wouldn't it? even if we still lived by those standards today, wouldn't companies still have an incentive to move overseas and hire workers who work maddening hours and sleep in the factory for pennies unless american workers brought themselves down to the same standards to compete?

[saz]

Regardless of what any candidate says or does, regardless of whether they say they are for labor or not, Obama is on the exact same page as Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, all the way back until Eisenhower. Dwight was cool.

None of these guys ever passed any legislation or bills that emboldened trade labor unions. They would take the cash, pay the lip service and open up every avenue possible to exploit the planet for more profits.

The problem is they sold out the American dream in the process. We've given away the goose that lays the golden egg to other countries all so the very richest can get richer. Our technology is freely given to China along with the rest of the world as long as they provide cheap labor, that maximizes the profit for that CEO and keeps the paper pushers, politicians and military apparatus status quo. There is no going back, people are figuring out the scheme, plausible deniability has been unearthed and those who say they want to change things know it is impossible.

Because the Greatest Nation on Earth gave away the Golden Goose. The democrats and the republicans did not represent the people, they still are not representing the people and have not given us any real plan to represent the people. And when I say people I mean We the People of the United States, sorry but I have to stay local and a bit isolated because we are the ones paying the taxes, bailouts and war costs.

We should be demanding true representative government. The transparency is there once people tune out conglomerate media sources.

i'd say you're entirely spot on, except you went back way too far. the selling out and destruction of the american middle-class, and decline of america's infrastructure began under reagan's watch, and continued under bush, clinton, and bush.

i know some people aren't going to want to hear it, but michael moore got it entirely right in capitalism: a love story.

[yeahwho]

ha ha bob, you want decadence? decadence is getting paid to say "welcome to wal-mart" everyday and i mean everyday if you want to afford and maintain the standard of living you become accustomed to in your econoline van.

[yeahwho]

i'd say you're entirely spot on, except you went back way too far. the selling out and destruction of the american middle-class, and decline of america's infrastructure began under reagan's watch, and continued under bush, clinton, and bush.

i know some people aren't going to want to hear it, but michael moore got it entirely right in capitalism: a love story.

I most certainly hope I'm wrong and my cynical outlook will be turned around by some sort of positivity in the very near future. I do believe though the cynicism I have goes all of the way back to Nixon and I've always felt we as "We the People" were cheated as Ford gave Nixon a pardon, which in turn opened up the office of the POTUS for all sorts of other mischievous mideeds that ultimately turned our trusted servant into a power seeking individual with nobody to answer to.

I agree with then press secretary for U.S. President Gerald Ford, Jerald terHorst and his resignation letter after Ford pardoned Nixon (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1974_resignation_letter_of_Jerald_terHorst). A piece of US history always low lighted by every passing election.

The "above the law" and "above the will of the people" attitude of politicians starts someplace we may as well assign that particular day it's place in history since the usual suspects don't want it there.

Michael Moore sure can piss off a lot of people, I haven't seen Capitalism a love story yet. He always pisses off the right people though, unike the other agitators out there, Beck, Rush, O'Reilly etc. when you fact check his documentaries or even his commentary you end up with more facts than fiction.

[travesty]

OK so we all seem to agree that globalism is killing the American working class. What now? How do we get it back? Can we ever get it back? Do we even want it back? Protectionism? An isolationist economy? I don't know the answer to that one.

And I'd say you also didn't go back far enough to 1913 and the creation of the Federal Reserve and then Bretton Woods in the 40's. Since that time the government of this country is nothing more than a distraction for the populus. A 24 hour puppet show that gives the people a sense of hope.

[travesty]

Since no one can answer that last question let's get back to why Unions suck (http://jalopnik.com/5645880/auto-workers-drinking-getting-high-during-lunch).

[Drederick Tatum]

^that kind of behaviour would still exist without unions...except the workers would probably be sniffing glue and smoking bark.

[saz]

and making wages which keep them below the poverty line, while working twelve hour days, no benefits, no rights in the workplace, contributing to an overall lower standard of living.

I most certainly hope I'm wrong and my cynical outlook will be turned around by some sort of positivity in the very near future. I do believe though the cynicism I have goes all of the way back to Nixon and I've always felt we as "We the People" were cheated as Ford gave Nixon a pardon, which in turn opened up the office of the POTUS for all sorts of other mischievous mideeds that ultimately turned our trusted servant into a power seeking individual with nobody to answer to.

I agree with then press secretary for U.S. President Gerald Ford, Jerald terHorst and his resignation letter after Ford pardoned Nixon (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1974_resignation_letter_of_Jerald_terHorst). A piece of US history always low lighted by every passing election.

The "above the law" and "above the will of the people" attitude of politicians starts someplace we may as well assign that particular day it's place in history since the usual suspects don't want it there.

Michael Moore sure can piss off a lot of people, I haven't seen Capitalism a love story yet. He always pisses off the right people though, unike the other agitators out there, Beck, Rush, O'Reilly etc. when you fact check his documentaries or even his commentary you end up with more facts than fiction.

The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street (http://www.amazon.com/Great-American-Stickup-Republicans-Democrats/dp/1568584342)

Following Ronald Reagan' s obsession with the radical deregulation of financial markets through its apotheosis under the Clinton administration to Obama' s reform efforts--which rely, oddly enough, on Clinton cronies to clean up (and profit from) the mess they made--Scheer (The Pornography of Power) proves that, when it comes to the ruling sway of money power, Democrats and Republicans, Wall Street and Washington make very agreeable bedfellows. Scheer names names (Robert Rubin, Lawrence Summers, Alan Greenspan), while praising those who sounded the alarm and underscoring the foreseeable results of putting Wall Street in the driver' s seat. What grew in this regulatory vacuum, Scheer shows, was a global casino, a mind-bendingly enormous and arcane system of gambling on new financial products worth hundreds of trillions of dollars. By 2007, when the house of cards collapsed, Wall Street alone understood what it had wrought while its government partners remained clueless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8B1WSINCLM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvudloV4cII

[yeahwho]

Since no one can answer that last question let's get back to why Unions suck (http://jalopnik.com/5645880/auto-workers-drinking-getting-high-during-lunch).

That's a pretty desperate post, your hatred for unions is bizarre.

Drinking and getting high during lunch is an equal opportunity employer, trust me I've done it both ways union and non union.

I'm having a hell of a time getting the AA meetings I go to be Union Shops.

[travesty]

My point was not that these guys are union idiots (although they are) it's that the union does nothing about it when they are caught red handed coming back to work intoxicated. Same old, same old. Business as usual. Mediocrity at it's finest. Any business I know of in the same situation and these a-holes would be fired, immediately. Not "suspended". I have no doubt that the known lack of repercusions is exactly why these guys did what they did.

[Dorothy Wood]

My point was not that these guys are union idiots (although they are) it's that the union does nothing about it when they are caught red handed coming back to work intoxicated. Same old, same old. Business as usual. Mediocrity at it's finest. Any business I know of in the same situation and these a-holes would be fired, immediately. Not "suspended". I have no doubt that the known lack of repercusions is exactly why these guys did what they did.

ha! you think white collar people don't do drugs at work?! hahahahhahahhahahah hahahhahha! oh man, wow, your world is awfully small.

some of the things you've said in here are ridiculous. your wife would castrate you if you moved into a smaller house? i know you're exaggerating, but don't you see, you're part of the problem. you think 18 dollars an hour is too much to pay working people? why? how much do you make?

the union wages aren't the problem, they're a symptom of the problem, and greed is the problem.

companies outsource so they can grow their profits with math, not with ingenuity and productive creativity. CEOs make millions hand over fist as long as the profits go up. doesn't matter how it's done as long as it's done.

i think you have a problem with the working class and that's why you hate unions so much. you're stuck up, you think your choices are the right ones, so anyone with less is somehow lower than you and should just take what they can get...because you don't think you'd ever be in that position yourself.

[Sir SkratchaLot]

If white collar buisness men can band together, form corporations, have all of the protections and gifts of the law, and use their combined power to leverage with their employees, then why can't workers do the same?

[travesty]

ha! you think white collar people don't do drugs at work?! hahahahhahahhahahah hahahhahha! oh man, wow, your world is awfully small.
I'm sure they do. In fact I know many who have. But when they get caught on camera they get fired. Period. Are you defending these guys?

some of the things you've said in here are ridiculous. your wife would castrate you if you moved into a smaller house? i know you're exaggerating, but don't you see, you're part of the problem. you think 18 dollars an hour is too much to pay working people? why? how much do you make?

Absolutely not. I think $18 an hour is a perfectly acceptable wage if the work you are doing is actually WORTH $18 an hour. I do NOT think it is acceptable to pay someone $18 an hour for a job that can be done for $8 an hour. That artificial wage rate is what skews the market. It makes everything we buy and sell more expensive which begets two things;
1) We all have to make more to pay for those things so we demand more per hour than we are worth and the whole cycle just continues because we don't feel we are make a "living wage" because we can't afford all of the things that cost more than they should because someone else is getting paid more than they should. Get it?
2) We can't sell as much of that prooduct because the price is not as competitive as ones produced where labor is paid a fair market value.
Either way everyone loses, including the worker. The unions are starting figure it out themselves (http://jalopnik.com/5644815/meet-the-half+priced-auto-workers-building-your-new-car) so I don't to hear that high pay union workers = quality products. It's just not true.
On this line of thinking; being a woman do you think that it is acceptable for men to make, on average, 25% more than you do for the exact same job? Why not?
PS- I make a decent living. I risk my family's entire existance everyday making and selling a product that no one needs, is absurdly expensive and caters to the most economically volatile industry in the US. We are on track to have our best year since 2006.:)

the union wages aren't the problem, they're a symptom of the problem, and greed is the problem.
Bingo! Unions are greedy. That's their job, just like CEO's, just like shareholders and just like politicians. Welcome to America.

companies outsource so they can grow their profits with math, not with ingenuity and productive creativity. CEOs make millions hand over fist as long as the profits go up. doesn't matter how it's done as long as it's done.
Companies also outsource to get a better product. They outsource to get more efficient. They outsource to reduce liabilities. They outsource to get better talent. They outsource to get better ideas. They outsource to open new markets. They outsource to meet new demand. They outsource to better service the customer. There are millions of reasons why companies outsource jobs, to say that it's just for profits is very ignorant. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the company you work for provides some type of outsourced service or product to another company.

i think you have a problem with the working class and that's why you hate unions so much.
I love the working class. I'm from the working class and I am working class. I have to change my filthy clothes and take a shower everyday when I get home from work. Do you? I hate unions because they do the same thing insurance fraud and shoplifting do. They make everything more expensive for everyone.

you're stuck up, you think your choices are the right ones
They are and I am. Do you think your choices are the wrong ones?

So anyone with less is somehow lower than you and should just take what they can get...because you don't think you'd ever be in that position yourself.

I've been in that position, trust me, and I could easily be in that position again tomorrow. I know what it takes to get out of that position and it's not dependence on others that does it. Have you ever been bankrupt Dorothy? Have you ever been jobless and 4 months behind on your mortgage? Have you ever had a car repossesed and had to take the bus or walk (skateboard:))to job interviews? I'm curious.

[saz]

Bingo! Unions are greedy. That's their job, just like CEO's, just like shareholders and just like politicians. Welcome to America.

this is the grossly unfair comparison that conservatives always make. union members and the working class don't make billions of dollars every year, nor do they have their own private jets. nor do they continue to pillage the nation from their lofty thrown rooms on wall street. they can barely get by in this economy, struggle to get their kids through school and to make ends meet. they're real people who are facing real hardships.



Companies also outsource to get a better product. They outsource to get more efficient. They outsource to reduce liabilities. They outsource to get better talent. They outsource to get better ideas. They outsource to open new markets. They outsource to meet new demand. They outsource to better service the customer. There are millions of reasons why companies outsource jobs, to say that it's just for profits is very ignorant.


they also outsource to the third world in order to pay slave wage rates to those who work anywhere from sixteen to eighteen hours a day, in order to increase their profits, all the while putting americans out of work and killing the manufacturing base in the process.

[Dorothy Wood]

I'm sure they do. In fact I know many who have. But when they get caught on camera they get fired. Period. Are you defending these guys?



Absolutely not. I think $18 an hour is a perfectly acceptable wage if the work you are doing is actually WORTH $18 an hour. I do NOT think it is acceptable to pay someone $18 an hour for a job that can be done for $8 an hour. That artificial wage rate is what skews the market. It makes everything we buy and sell more expensive which begets two things;
1) We all have to make more to pay for those things so we demand more per hour than we are worth and the whole cycle just continues because we don't feel we are make a "living wage" because we can't afford all of the things that cost more than they should because someone else is getting paid more than they should. Get it?
2) We can't sell as much of that prooduct because the price is not as competitive as ones produced where labor is paid a fair market value.
Either way everyone loses, including the worker. The unions are starting figure it out themselves (http://jalopnik.com/5644815/meet-the-half+priced-auto-workers-building-your-new-car) so I don't to hear that high pay union workers = quality products. It's just not true.
On this line of thinking; being a woman do you think that it is acceptable for men to make, on average, 25% more than you do for the exact same job? Why not?
PS- I make a decent living. I risk my family's entire existance everyday making and selling a product that no one needs, is absurdly expensive and caters to the most economically volatile industry in the US. We are on track to have our best year since 2006.:)


Bingo! Unions are greedy. That's their job, just like CEO's, just like shareholders and just like politicians. Welcome to America.


Companies also outsource to get a better product. They outsource to get more efficient. They outsource to reduce liabilities. They outsource to get better talent. They outsource to get better ideas. They outsource to open new markets. They outsource to meet new demand. They outsource to better service the customer. There are millions of reasons why companies outsource jobs, to say that it's just for profits is very ignorant. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the company you work for provides some type of outsourced service or product to another company.


I love the working class. I'm from the working class and I am working class. I have to change my filthy clothes and take a shower everyday when I get home from work. Do you? I hate unions because they do the same thing insurance fraud and shoplifting do. They make everything more expensive for everyone.


They are and I am. Do you think your choices are the wrong ones?



I've been in that position, trust me, and I could easily be in that position again tomorrow. I know what it takes to get out of that position and it's not dependence on others that does it. Have you ever been bankrupt Dorothy? Have you ever been jobless and 4 months behind on your mortgage? Have you ever had a car repossesed and had to take the bus or walk (skateboard:))to job interviews? I'm curious.


who are you to say that a job is worth $8/hr vs. $18/hr? companies who've outsourced labor to 3rd world countries are paying 80 cents an hour, not $8.

anyway, my company doesn't outsource anything, we make things that go directly to the customer. but some of our products do come from China. Most things are from the U.S. or Italy.

Well see, I don't have a mortgage, I live in a large city and can't afford to buy anything here. If I would've stayed in Ohio, I probably would've been a teacher and bought a condo somewhere dumb, if I lasted that long before blowing my brains out.

I wouldn't have my car repossessed because I don't have a car. When I did have a car, I owned it outright and it was a piece of shit not worth repossessing.

I take the bus, the train, ride my bike and walk everywhere. Never been bankrupt because I don't take on debts I can't afford (besides my student loans, ugh).

I'm not saying I'm in the best position for everyone, or even the best position for me. But I'm happy, I have a lot of friends and can basically do whatever I want.

[travesty]

this is the grossly unfair comparison that conservatives always make. union members and the working class don't make billions of dollars every year, nor do they have their own private jets. nor do they continue to pillage the nation from their lofty thrown rooms on wall street. they can barely get by in this economy, struggle to get their kids through school and to make ends meet. they're real people who are facing real hardships.
They do their pillaging from middle class neighborhoods. They are not facing near the hardships that people who make a fair, market determined, living are. Are you telling me the NJ Turnpike Toll collector that makes $75k is facing hardship. Please bro. Are you telling me that the union auto worker making $28/hour is facing hardship when his bother in the same plant doing the exact same job for the same employer is being paid $16/hour? Union schlubs are doing way better than most folks right now. Spare me if I don't show the compassion.



they also outsource to the third world in order to pay slave wage rates to those who work anywhere from sixteen to eighteen hours a day, in order to increase their profits, all the while putting americans out of work and killing the manufacturing base in the process.

Well according to your always compassionate, stand up for the little guy Democrat fellows, those folks deserve a job too right? Why don't they have the right to work too? Those "slave" wages are usually pretty high within their own economies and a few jobs like that can transform the lives of an entire family and even village. Why do those people deserve to starve to death and live in squalor we can't imagine just so that a worker here can buy another 40oz for lunch? Or put some spinners on his Impala. Which is more morally egregious; spinners or a family's survival. You can't have it both ways. The floodgates of a global economy are wide open and US labor rates are inevitably going to correct downward in order for the US to remain viable. Get used to it now unless you have some solution I haven't heard yet. I can tell you this....unions ain't going to solve anything for any one.

[travesty]

who are you to say that a job is worth $8/hr vs. $18/hr? companies who've outsourced labor to 3rd world countries are paying 80 cents an hour, not $8.
The market detrmines that, not me, not you and not the unions. If you don't like the free open trade we have with the global community then you need to consider voting for politicians that advocate more isolationist policies. Also stop buying anything foreign made and see how far your monthly paycheck gets you then.

anyway, my company doesn't outsource anything
Bull shit
we make things that go directly to the customer. but some of our products do come from China. Most things are from the U.S. or Italy.
See, my point exactly. Everybody outsources something. By merely buying soething from someone else you have outsourced the production of that item. It' not a bad word.

Well see, I don't have a mortgage, I live in a large city and can't afford to buy anything here. If I would've stayed in Ohio, I probably would've been a teacher and bought a condo somewhere dumb, if I lasted that long before blowing my brains out. I wouldn't have my car repossessed because I don't have a car. When I did have a car, I owned it outright and it was a piece of shit not worth repossessing. I take the bus, the train, ride my bike and walk everywhere. Never been bankrupt because I don't take on debts I can't afford (besides my student loans, ugh). I'm not saying I'm in the best position for everyone, or even the best position for me. But I'm happy, I have a lot of friends and can basically do whatever I want.

Who's being stuck up now?

[Dorothy Wood]

The market detrmines that, not me, not you and not the unions. If you don't like the free open trade we have with the global community then you need to consider voting for politicians that advocate more isolationist policies. Also stop buying anything foreign made and see how far your monthly paycheck gets you then.


Bull shit

See, my point exactly. Everybody outsources something. By merely buying soething from someone else you have outsourced the production of that item. It' not a bad word.



Who's being stuck up now?


still you. i'm poor and lazy, but i support myself without assistance and have a well-rounded life, that's all i'm saying.

you're still blaming everything on unions, but it sounds like your problem is with class, i.e. bringing up "rims".

im writing this from my phone on a bus, so i can't address everything having to do with outsourcing, but i have stuff to say on the matter. i just think you're simplifying too much and coming to questionable conclusions

[saz]

They do their pillaging from middle class neighborhoods. They are not facing near the hardships that people who make a fair, market determined, living are. Are you telling me the NJ Turnpike Toll collector that makes $75k is facing hardship. Please bro.

if that's true than good for them. i imagine with health insurance costs, mortgage payments, college tuitions and other costs of living that so many are getting by alright, if their home hasn't already been foreclosed, or haven't been forced into bankruptcy via health insurance costs. people should have a right to a decent wage so society and the economy benefits with families not living around or below the poverty line, and can provide their kids with a future. regardless, the labour movement and its historic victories contributed to the strong and vast american middle class. personally, i can identify much more with someone making $75,000, as opposed to $1 billion.


Are you telling me that the union auto worker making $28/hour is facing hardship when his bother in the same plant doing the exact same job for the same employer is being paid $16/hour? Union schlubs are doing way better than most folks right now. Spare me if I don't show the compassion.

i said union members and the working class. sorry i should've been more specific with the working class.


Well according to your always compassionate, stand up for the little guy Democrat fellows, those folks deserve a job too right?

i like maybe four or six democrats. i advocated nader on here during the '08 campaign (you should remember this, as you're a bob barr guy).


Why don't they have the right to work too? Those "slave" wages are usually pretty high within their own economies and a few jobs like that can transform the lives of an entire family and even village.

i don't buy that. not only could those people be paid much better wages (less than three dollars a day), and not have to work seven days a week, tolerate the factory's quarters and have pay unfairly docked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CzbT1hGwmM), but those manufacturing plants could have and should have been kept in america in the first place. these greedy board room whores essentially sold out their country for higher profits.


Why do those people deserve to starve to death and live in squalor we can't imagine just so that a worker here can buy another 40oz for lunch? Or put some spinners on his Impala. Which is more morally egregious; spinners or a family's survival.

what country do you care about more, china or the united states?


You can't have it both ways. The floodgates of a global economy are wide open and US labor rates are inevitably going to correct downward in order for the US to remain viable. Get used to it now unless you have some solution I haven't heard yet. I can tell you this....unions ain't going to solve anything for any one.

how about this for a solution: companies should selling out their country and keep their manufacturing plants in america, providing jobs, opportunities and economic benefits on the whole.

[travesty]

The only things I'm blaming on the unions are overpriced, mediocre goods and services. While I think that having the cost of labor arbitrarily inflated negatively effects all of us, especially the employing company, I don't blame the union workers for accepting that salary. I think everyone should get as much as they can for their work. As I've said a million times, everyone writes thier own ticket. If you can make twice as much as everyone else for doing the same work, then God Bless and kudos. That's the name of the game. That's capitalism at it's finest. It just frustrates me that many Americans can not grasp that one simple idea.

However it is quite obvious that by following this practice many unions have priced themselves out of jobs. That is only going to get worse as other markets continue to emerge with cheap unskilled labor. There is not stopping it, your pals on the left would call this "progress" and at the same time complain about losing jobs. You can't have both and "green" jobs ain't going to help. We'll develop those and ship them elsewhere too.

[travesty]

Wow saz . What I hear you saying is screw everyone else in the world. We're America and we're going to keep everything for ourselves. All you poor fuckers can shrivel up and die because we have people here who need to be able to afford 60" TV's. We HAVE to pay them 400-500% percent more than we would pay you because they are Americans and you are not. Sucki it...dvelop your own jobs.
That really puts a crimp in Nader's "support social and economic justice around the globe" dictate.

i don't buy that. not only could those people be paid much better wages (less than three dollars a day), and not have to work seven days a week, tolerate the factory's quarters and have pay unfairly docked, but those manufacturing plants could have and should have been kept in america in the first place. these greedy board room whores essentially sold out their country for higher profits.

And I bet you have an iPhone too.

How is a company that is publicly owned by thousand and thousands of US Citizens selling out their country by returning profits to those citizens? (obviously not all comapnies are majority US owned but the vast majority are)

How about our country quits selling out our companies and our citizens by borrowing more money than our annual GDP from our biggest competitor?

[saz]

Wow saz . What I hear you saying is screw everyone else in the world. We're America and we're going to keep everything for ourselves. All you poor fuckers can shrivel up and die because we have people here who need to be able to afford 60" TV's. We HAVE to pay them 400-500% percent more than we would pay you because they are Americans and you are not. Sucki it...dvelop your own jobs.

i didn't say that. i thought it would be both rational and reasonable to argue that jobs should be kept in america, specifically manufacturing jobs, which contributes to overall economic strength. outsourcing manufacturing plants overseas and paying slave wages comes down to nothing more than greed.


That really puts a crimp in Nader's "support social and economic justice around the globe" dictate.

no it doesn't.


And I bet you have an iPhone too.

no i don't. but i see you're copping an unnecessary attitude.


How is a company that is publicly owned by thousand and thousands of US Citizens selling out their country by returning profits to those citizens? (obviously not all comapnies are majority US owned but the vast majority are)


quite simply, by moving your manufacturing operations overseas.


How about our country quits selling out our companies and our citizens by borrowing more money than our annual GDP from our biggest competitor?

i completely agree. i'd also add that the u.s. should shound no longer borrow hundreds of billions (if not trillions) from your biggest competitor to finance illegal and unnecessary wars.

[travesty]

i didn't say that. i thought it would be both rational and reasonable to argue that jobs should be kept in america, specifically manufacturing jobs, which contributes to overall economic strength. outsourcing manufacturing plants overseas and paying slave wages comes down to nothing more than greed.
Some would call it smart business. Either way there is simply no stopping it now. You and I are both far too comfortable with $3 gas and $500 55" Plasmas. There needs to be a massive paradigm shift in the US for us to survive. Sadly, trying to get back manufacturing jobs just isn't going to happen as far as I can see. It really puts us at risk but I just can't see a way to get them back given the current social and political climate. I think we can exploit being the service leader (a road we are already on) but we need to find something to service other than our own consumption and the resulting debt. We just can't go on surviving just by being consumers.

but i see you're copping an unnecessary attitude.
It happens...sorry.



quite simply, by moving your manufacturing operations overseas.
What about the US right now is attractive for manufacturers? What would make it more attractive? You can't mandate that companies stay here if they don't want to, that is impossible.

[Dorothy Wood]

The only things I'm blaming on the unions are overpriced, mediocre goods and services. While I think that having the cost of labor arbitrarily inflated negatively effects all of us, especially the employing company, I don't blame the union workers for accepting that salary. I think everyone should get as much as they can for their work. As I've said a million times, everyone writes thier own ticket. If you can make twice as much as everyone else for doing the same work, then God Bless and kudos. That's the name of the game. That's capitalism at it's finest. It just frustrates me that many Americans can not grasp that one simple idea.

However it is quite obvious that by following this practice many unions have priced themselves out of jobs. That is only going to get worse as other markets continue to emerge with cheap unskilled labor. There is not stopping it, your pals on the left would call this "progress" and at the same time complain about losing jobs. You can't have both and "green" jobs ain't going to help. We'll develop those and ship them elsewhere too.

I disagree with your statement about capitalism. I think getting more money for doing the same job is capitalism at its worst. Being rewarded for being a weasel isn't what this country (or any country) should be about.

I feel like a long time ago people started confusing freedom of choice with freedom of choice of product. So the higher ups in charge of manufacturing responded with millions of "new" products and piled heaps of money into advertising to sell those products. Quality declined, quantity increased.

Now, all of this has to do with the people at the top, not the people making the products. or even the people buying the products. Do you know how much unsold merchandise goes into the garbage? I'm not talking about consumable goods that can expire, I'm talking apparel, knick knacks, gadgets, furniture, bedding, etc. These are the things that are made overseas in sweat shops.

And these products are sold at department stores, gigantic buildings full of 99% crap, of which only 10% will be sold. and generally mostly sold at a discount because the prices are originally grossly inflated because they know that eventually they'll lower the price, but will try to get a couple of people to buy at full price. These department stores employ hundreds of people with limited skills, that are paid a much higher wage than the people who made the items being sold, or sometimes even more than a 16 year old busting ass working at a fast food joint.

This whole retail monster was created by greed and perpetuated by greed. and now it's all falling apart. Stores are closing, businesses are failing. Thousands of little bubbles popping everywhere.

As for the big bubble of the automotive industry, it's not the unions that destroyed it, it's the greed of the people at the top. It's lack of forethought. They own the companies, they let the unions get out of control, and then they cut and ran.

It seems like every other advertisement I see has to do with cars. But how often do people buy cars? why do they need to buy a new car every year, or multiple cars? they don't. why do the people who make the ads for the cars make more money than the people who make the cars? because the ads sell the cars.

Well, from my point of view, cars should sell themselves. Either you need a damn car or you don't. I'm not saying we should all drive gray boxes around with no choices, but why so many choices?

volume! that's why so many choices. volume=profit.

or at least it used to mean that. until placing so much importance on volume started destroying our economy, and with that, people's lives.


but you know, it started out in the name of progress and we certainly have a lot to be proud of in america. we can't forget how hard people worked, and none of us here actually knows how hard things used to be. it's like the majority of americans have selective memory. they forget the toiling, they forget the torturous conditions, they even forget inconvenience.

I don't know how it happened, I just know that it sucks and I don't know how to change it, so it angers me when people are so certain in their convictions when those convictions amount to nothing productive.


and also, the ground we walk on in america is soaked with the blood of the natives who lived here before us, so maybe it's just plain old karma.

[Sir SkratchaLot]

Damn, that was a well thought out and exectuted post Dorothy.

It hits on one of the things that pisses me off to no end. Americans just seem to think that more = better. Like, okay, you go into Subway, and, invariably, there is some big ass dude, or lady, in there just asking them to pile every conceivable condiment on that bitch so that they can get more for their money. People put so much shit on their sandwich that they ruin it, but hey "there's more, so it must be better!" Or, they go to nice restaurant and get filet and then complain because "the steak at Outback is so much bigger. Plus you get 5 times as many mashed potatoes!" Nevermind that the food at the nice restaurant is 10 times better. I don't know whether its the capitalist system that has lead us down this path or whether the system has simply adjusted to our own stupidity. Do people prefer quantity over quality because the system has duped us into believing that's the best "value" or is that we are a nation full of fat assed gluttons and the system is just feeding us, and feeding us and feeding us? <--- Wu Tang reference!

It's not limited to food either. Just try to buy a home that even comes close to the craftsmanship you saw 100 years ago. You can't do it. Boy there's some great bargians out there though (i.e. places ready to collapse because of poor matierials and poor craftsmanship).

As a nation, we've pretty much sold out quality to make a quick buck on large quantities of shit. Its sad really.

But yeah, I'm sure it's all the Unions' fault.:rolleyes:

[travesty]

Dorothy I appreciate your response however, as you can imagine, I can not possibly disagree with you more. Especially on your first point.

The opportunity to earn as much as possible according to your talents and merits is at the very heart of the freedom that so many in this country have sacrificed so much for. Without that opportunity we are nothing more than slaves, robots and automatons. If you truly feel that every job should have an assigned salary and that no one person should be paid more than another for the same job then you are certainly living in the wrong country and I can understand your frustration.

As for the rest of your post I guess maybe a few economics classes or at least some rudimentary business lessons are in order.

Volume does not equal profit. Many business are no longer operating because they thought volume equals profit. Margin equals profit. In your scenario it would actually be way more profitable to build 3 models of cars for everyone than it is to build 20 models. Economies of scale and efficiency.

However I do get your point and I think you are right to a degree in that there is a lot of choice for most products. But the markets ultimately determines the amount of choice that it will tolerate, companies can only evaluate whether the risk to offer the choice offsets the investment. More times than not, it doesn't and that product is never brought to market. Then some products make it to market and the market ultimately rejects them as a viable competitor. Overall a very small number of products sell enough to recoup the investment in cost and return a profit. That is called the business cycle. Your winning products need to cover the cost of your losing products and then some. Having the level of choice that we do in our economy is what makes our way of life possible. Imagine trying to survive on your paycheck if everything you had to buy was painstakingly handcrafted? Technology and mass production nave advanced the human condition far, far more than harmed it. Is there waste? yes. Are there losers? yup. Are people exploited? everyday. But at the end of the day we have cultivated the greatest amount of wealth in the shortest period of time of any civilization in history. Has it caused some problems? Sure it has but you also have to consider all of the good it has done as well. It has allowed us to do some incredible things. If you feel guilty about your lifestyle and for what America stands for then consider these annual stats;
You personally contributed (average per taxpayer (http://www.investorguide.com/taxtrackr/))
1) $266 to help people in other countries improve their lives
2) $1934 to help your fellow US citizens live longer, healthier lives with Medicare
3) $364 to help people get an education
4) $1429 to help those with disabilities survive
5) $2959 to help the elderly survive after retirement
6) $309 to care for our Veterans
7) $131 to care for our natural resources and the environment
8) $306 to provide safe transportation infrastructure for our citizens
9) $36 to explore space...yes I said fucking explore outer space!!!!
10) $39 to help others who can not afford shelter, housing

In all, on average, every taxpayer in America spends about $12,230 a year toward the "greater good" of our country and others. Add to that $960 average individual charitable contribution per capita (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=content.view&cpid=736&print=1). Now we all would like to manipulate those numbers a bit according to our values but the fact is that no other country on Earth gives so much to others as does the US. What percentage of your salary is $13k? A lot.

Do not let anyone make you feel guilty for what you have and for what your parents and their parents worked so hard to develop. If you do feel guilty for what you (we) have in the US then you must not work very hard because I feel like I bust my ass for what I have and I try not to take a single thing I have for granted. It also doesn't make me feel "greedy". We are living in amazing, amazing times in the US right now. Cherish it.

[Dorothy Wood]

i'm not sure we understand eachother...you keep putting words in my mouth and/or incorrectly embellishing on what i've said.

you said if you could make twice as much as everyone else doing the same work, that's capitalism at it's finest.

your misty-eyed follow up description of people earning money for their merits and talents is the complete opposite of scamming your way to a bigger paycheck.

and then you decide to call me a communist? lame. i work hard, there's not a lot of money in what i do, but i'm good at it and my staff and my bosses trust me so i have a lot of freedom. and we're weathering the economic storm because we're independent and offer quality work and expertise. i'm also starting my own business and assisting a friend with a company he started recently. point being, if we do well, we will be raking in the dough, as they say. and that right there, is capitalism at its finest.

so, be careful patting yourself on the back so hard, wouldn't want you to dislocate a shoulder.

[travesty]

I never called you a communist. Who's putting words in who's mouth?

you said if you could make twice as much as everyone else doing the same work, that's capitalism at it's finest.
It is.

your misty-eyed follow up description of people earning money for their merits and talents is the complete opposite of scamming your way to a bigger paycheck.
Huh? If our job is to assemble widgets and you can assemble 200 widgets in a day and I can only assemble 100 widgets in a day, shouldn't you be paid double what I do? How is that "scamming" your way to a bigger paycheck? What is your definition of "scamming your way to a bigger paycheck'? I have a feeling it would fit in line with joining a union.

You are correct that I am having trouble understanding your position. You started out by defending what union workers get paid above and beyond what others in the same job make. THEN you say that you don't think it's fair that people get paid different amounts for the same job. :confused:Then you say you are starting your own business so that you can "rake in the dough". :confused:You are all over them map! But mostly you seem to reinforce my point which is that maximizing the pay you receive for your labor is not necessarily greed.

And why in the world would you start a business if you feel that Americans have too much choice of products? Won't you ultimately just be contributing to the melange of "crap" offerings that you loathe so much?
What's that you say? Your product is going to be different? Your product is going to be better than what is currently available? Your product is going to change your industry forever? Sure, that's what all entrepreneurs think. But here in America you have a pretty open door to follow that dream, and a pretty good chance of realizing it and yet people like you want to feel guilty about all of the "choices" we have. You are a walking dichotomy.

On a side note I truly wish you luck with starting your own business. You will not regret it. You may start to rethink some of your political views :)...but succeed or fail, you will never regret the fact that you tried. Kudos and best of luck! If there is ever anything I can do to help you out please do not hesitate to ask.

[Dorothy Wood]

I never called you a communist. Who's putting words in who's mouth?


you said this: "If you truly feel that every job should have an assigned salary and that no one person should be paid more than another for the same job then you are certainly living in the wrong country and I can understand your frustration."

how else should I take that?



It is.

See, you originally said: "If you can make twice as much as everyone else for doing the same work, then God Bless and kudos."

which is what I reacted to, and what you're back tracking on now. Perhaps you misspoke.


Huh? If our job is to assemble widgets and you can assemble 200 widgets in a day and I can only assemble 100 widgets in a day, shouldn't you be paid double what I do? How is that "scamming" your way to a bigger paycheck? What is your definition of "scamming your way to a bigger paycheck'? I have a feeling it would fit in line with joining a union.

again, you didn't say that originally, you said double pay for the same work. I have no problem with harder working people making more money at the same job. If it's a matter of semantics, perhaps I misunderstood.



You are correct that I am having trouble understanding your position. You started out by defending what union workers get paid above and beyond what others in the same job make. THEN you say that you don't think it's fair that people get paid different amounts for the same job. :confused:Then you say you are starting your own business so that you can "rake in the dough". :confused:You are all over them map! But mostly you seem to reinforce my point which is that maximizing the pay you receive for your labor is not necessarily greed.

No, I'm saying it was the job of the people in charge of the companies to not let unions get out of hand. incompetent people getting paid too much happens all over the board, not just with unions. I have friends in white collar jobs, I hear the stories. I know people who make 3 times my salary and they aren't particularly clever. I don't hate them though, they're my friends. They're real crabby and loathe their jobs, but they have full bank accounts I guess. And even those people work for people who make 3 times more than they do and pretty much do nothing. Don't forget how important nepotism is to white collar folks.


And why in the world would you start a business if you feel that Americans have too much choice of products? Won't you ultimately just be contributing to the melange of "crap" offerings that you loathe so much?
What's that you say? Your product is going to be different? Your product is going to be better than what is currently available? Your product is going to change your industry forever? Sure, that's what all entrepreneurs think. But here in America you have a pretty open door to follow that dream, and a pretty good chance of realizing it and yet people like you want to feel guilty about all of the "choices" we have. You are a walking dichotomy.

I don't have a product. I provide a service. and my friend's business has a product, but he's making that product out of salvaged materials that would normally go in the garbage. We are craftspeople, we won't be billionaires, but we can be comfortable if things go right.

And beyond that, choices don't make me feel guilty, they make me frustrated. If all the choices were good, then I wouldn't mind. It's that some of the choices are shitty, but the people behind them can pay for advertising. Corporations manipulate the public into purchasing things they don't need, you can't deny that. It's a fact.



On a side note I truly wish you luck with starting your own business. You will not regret it. You may start to rethink some of your political views :)...but succeed or fail, you will never regret the fact that you tried. Kudos and best of luck! If there is ever anything I can do to help you out please do not hesitate to ask.

Well, thanks. I'll never say never, but I'm pretty much set in my ways. and none of you guys ever really listen, but I'm pretty much a libertarian.

[Dorothy Wood]

also, thanks sir skratchalot. :)

[travesty]

I never called you a communist. I explicitly meant that if you truly believe in wage fixing then there are other societies around the world who would agree with you more than Americans do. That is all.

"If you can make twice as much as everyone else for doing the same work, then God Bless and kudos." - I stand by that. What have I said to "back track" from that?

I don't have a product. I provide a service. and my friend's business has a product, but he's making that product out of salvaged materials that would normally go in the garbage. We are craftspeople, we won't be billionaires, but we can be comfortable if things go right.

A little luck never hurts but don't wait for things to go right...make them go right.

Well, thanks. I'll never say never, but I'm pretty much set in my ways. and none of you guys ever really listen, but I'm pretty much a libertarian.

Don't be too set in your ways, you need to be adaptable to succeed.
Who are "you guys"? I've done nothing but listen to you for the last two days. Don't mistake not agreeing with you for not listening.

If you are a Libertarian then I must not know what a Libertarian is because I haven't once heard you espouse anything I would consider Libertarian. Especially that last rant about having too many car choices and the "retail monster". I think you need to look up Libertarian again, you may have meant to say that you are pretty much "Liberal". There's a big difference.

Whether you take me up on it or not, the offer still stands. I'm always willing to help a small business owner get things started.

[Dorothy Wood]

ugh. I'm so done with this.

Here's a simplified description of my political leanings from a stupid little quiz I just took and answered honestly:


According to your answers, the political group that agrees with you most is...Libertarian

Libertarians support maximum liberty in both personal and economic matters. They advocate a much smaller government; one that is limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence. Libertarians tend to embrace individual responsibility, oppose government bureaucracy and taxes, promote private charity, tolerate diverse lifestyles, support the free market, and defend civil liberties.


If I am to be honest and true to my beliefs, I am a libertarian. My emotions lean me socially left, because I think we need some government intervention to make sure that everyone's liberty is protected. and some people just can't provide for themselves or compete in society without help because of either circumstance or disability. and I think we're all better off when our society is functioning and healthy.

However, if I am to accept reality, and I do, ultimately it's survival of the fittest. and at this point, I don't think america is the fittest. Societies fail, species fail. It's arrogant to believe the U.S. is the end all be all of human existence. I'm no patriot.

I believe the "retail monster" was created by a lack of personal responsibility, a lack of forethought, selfishness and cruelty. Also, mass boredom.

[saz]

pointing out the faults of your country doesn't make you less patriotic, in fact it's the exact opposite.

[Dorothy Wood]

oh, I know. I more meant that I have little pride in place. I'd up and leave this country if it served me better to do so.

[travesty]

So, no where else would serve you better and yet you have no pride in where you are? You are a classic self hater. Quit being he victim Dorothy and start living your life courageously.

[yeahwho]

Here is what I will say about a topic that has drifted from multi-million dollar campaign aid and how professional politicians continue to infiltrate the United States government with corporate interests and largest military apparatus ever thrust upon mankind.

My dad provided for my family and he was union. If I start a business it will be for my community and it's needs, not for Wall Street and their needs. The 330 million people who should be represented by our government have just been shown how it really works, get in line behind a conglomeration of paper pushers who decide your fate. As the number of small banks dwindle away faster we will see how this theory of competitive spirit actually turns out to be a greedy grab for as much of the money each of the 400 or so richest people on earth can get with as much aide from a moronic electorate that continues to enable idiots to ignore fuckfaces like boehner.

Professional politicians doing the bidding for a corporate takeover of the planet with the aide of an unaccountable military machine.

We are not spreading democracy we are forcing open markets and pissing off billions of people right here on earth.

Anyway that is what I'm getting from reading today's paper.

[Dorothy Wood]

So, no where else would serve you better and yet you have no pride in where you are? You are a classic self hater. Quit being he victim Dorothy and start living your life courageously.

:rolleyes:

I didn't make america, I just happened to be born here, why do I need to be proud of it? pride is one of mankind's biggest weaknesses.

I live in the best place for me right now. My mom always taught me that home is where the heart is. No need to get attached to places and things because you never know when it'll change. My loyalty is to my values and my loved ones, not my address.

from what you've displayed on this board, I'd say you could do with a little less pride.

[travesty]

Spare me.

America will fail when Americans give up on her. People like you are are the source of the problem. You don't value what you have so giving it up is no problem. No team ever won anything with people like on it. If you can't take pride in your country and your fellow Americans, really what are you doing here? You are wasting your life. What is here that you are willing to sacrifice your personal values for? $$$? Lifestyle? Just curious.

[Bob]

Spare me.

America will fail when Americans give up on her.

no joke, my first response was "give up on who?"

[travesty]

Sorry, for some reason the idea of America seemed like it needed a female conoctation. Maybe i got that from "lady liberty" or something. I don't really have a good reason for that statement. I meant the general idea of "the American Experiment" as proposed by the founding fathers. I'm not really getting into the whole manipulation, bastardization, etc etc of that idea. My point is that as with most things involving communities and societies, you get out at least what you put in, usually more. When people stop caring enough to put any more in and just want to take out...the system will collapse and the society will cease.

[Drederick Tatum]

We are living in amazing, amazing times in the US right now. Cherish it.

No team ever won anything with people like on it. If you can't take pride in your country and your fellow Americans, really what are you doing here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS-FoXbjVI

[Sir SkratchaLot]

My point is that as with most things involving communities and societies, you get out at least what you put in, usually more. When people stop caring enough to put any more in and just want to take out...the system will collapse and the society will cease.

You mean "put in" like paying taxes? Or do you mean the type of "put in" where you rake in a lot of money, underpay workers, or hire workers outside of the Country so that you can rake in even more money, and dodge taxes whenever possible?

[Dorothy Wood]

Spare me.

America will fail when Americans give up on her. People like you are are the source of the problem. You don't value what you have so giving it up is no problem. No team ever won anything with people like on it. If you can't take pride in your country and your fellow Americans, really what are you doing here? You are wasting your life. What is here that you are willing to sacrifice your personal values for? $$$? Lifestyle? Just curious.

spare yourself. "people like you". ha! you don't know me, and every assumption you've made about me and other people in this thread has been wrong. so why should anyone listen to you?

Again, I can't be proud of something I didn't do. I was born here, but my mother's great grandparents were born in Finland. Do you think they should've been proud enough of Finland to stay there through war and Russia being a dick to them? well, they left for a better life in another country instead.

My father's mother's jewish ancestors left Spain because they didn't want to be forced into being catholic. They went to Mexico and traveled up into the pre-united states, and proceeded to settle the west long before any manifest destiny.

So, here I am in america, with people on t.v. that are supposed to be in charge of my country, arguing and/or spouting bullshit. Half the country wants everyone to believe in God and start wars for no reason. Well, I don't want my taxes paying for war, I don't want to live in a Christian country, I want to live in a peaceful place with freedom of religion. I don't want thousands of young men and women from my country dying or coming home traumatized and injured, so we can "democratize" countries that don't want to be democratized!

I'm not proud of what america has become. and I will leave if it suits me. I'm not saying tomorrow, I'm not saying 5 years from now. but if sometime in the future, a better life can be found in another country, I will leave. Just like every other human has done since the beginning of existence.


You asked what personal values I sacrifice? The only value I have to sacrifice is my stance against war. because I have to pay for it no matter what I think. I understand war, it's inevitable in some cases, and will probably never end as long as humans populate the planet. but we're in a war now that has no purpose and is destroying lives all over the world.


What am I doing here? existing, creating art, building things for people, teaching under-served urban youth, riding my bike, hanging out with my friends, going to the beach, making music, getting laid, producing variety shows, petting my cats, playing cards, exploring caves.

am I proud that I can do those things in this country? sure, but I could probably do them somewhere else too. that's all I'm saying. somewhere where the cops don't kick you and families and children quietly playing off the beach at 10 p.m. when you're supposed to be allowed to stay til 11, just because there's a doobie brothers concert on the other side of the fence.

[saz]

(y)

Here is what I will say about a topic that has drifted from multi-million dollar campaign aid and how professional politicians continue to infiltrate the United States government with corporate interests and largest military apparatus ever thrust upon mankind.

My dad provided for my family and he was union. If I start a business it will be for my community and it's needs, not for Wall Street and their needs. The 330 million people who should be represented by our government have just been shown how it really works, get in line behind a conglomeration of paper pushers who decide your fate. As the number of small banks dwindle away faster we will see how this theory of competitive spirit actually turns out to be a greedy grab for as much of the money each of the 400 or so richest people on earth can get with as much aide from a moronic electorate that continues to enable idiots to ignore fuckfaces like boehner.

Professional politicians doing the bidding for a corporate takeover of the planet with the aide of an unaccountable military machine.

We are not spreading democracy we are forcing open markets and pissing off billions of people right here on earth.

Anyway that is what I'm getting from reading today's paper.

[Dorothy Wood]

(y)

also (y) to that to

[saz]

and a big (y) to all of your contributions here which are reminding me of this classic fuck yeah (http://bbs.beastieboys.com/showpost.php?p=1655750&postcount=32)

[Dorothy Wood]

ha, thanks, I forgot about that. I guess I've been making the same argument for awhile now, good to know I've got conviction. :p

[travesty]

America isn't something people "did". It's what we all do. You can't escape being a part of it as much as you sound like you would like to. Sounds like you are really happy with yourself so good for you. Keep on taking no pride in being a part of nothing.

[Dorothy Wood]

America isn't something people "did". It's what we all do. You can't escape being a part of it as much as you sound like you would like to. Sounds like you are really happy with yourself so good for you. Keep on taking no pride in being a part of nothing.


It's a place where a bunch of people ended up. end of story. if you think it's the greatest place on earth, then it is to you and for you. so congrats. you like to feel important, like you're the best...I get it.

I'm not escaping it, I'm participating in the parts of it I believe in and support. But as a whole, I'm not super into the way things are for a lot of reasons.

I'm proud to be alive in the world, because mankind's been through a lot and accomplished more than most species on the planet...but I refuse to blindly approve of what my country does and is because I live here. That's a ridiculous request. I refuse to live arrogantly. I'm a considerate person, I want to move through the world without putting people out, I'd rather help than hinder. Though I might be proud of my intellect and wish that everyone could agree with me, I'm no better than any other person...and realizing that is what makes me free. hey, that rhymed!

Sorry to disappoint you.

anyway,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C9CH3q9PLI

[kaiser soze]

oh shit, she dropped the Pearl Jam bomb!

we are not tied to any flag, nor bound to another man's ideology, borders are just lines in the sand

I'm waiting for the moment when this country has an epiphany and truly changes the course of this world for the better.....but I'm not holding my breath. The times are changing, will we?

[travesty]

I'm sorry are you saying the US has never done anything to change the course of the world for the better? If so I am going to to take exception with that statement.

Dorothy I'm not asking you to "blindly approve" in what your country does. I don't either. I'm asking you to do what every citizen should...participate in the fight to make it better. Whatever you think "better" should be. That's what will continue to make us great. When people quit caring to try and make things better, as you are choosing to do, and take the attitude of "Meh, if it suits me I'll stay, otherwise I'll leave" then we are certain to fail.
That's all I'm saying. Make your voice heard, not for me, but for you.

I'm not trying to be all Team America Fuck Yeah but I am also not going to take the soft spined route of not standing up for what I belive is right and wrong with this country. It has nothing to do with me trying to make myself "feel important" just because I don't coalesce to you, and others on this board's, attempts to make me feel guilty about being an American. I'm not happy with how things are going either but I haven't given up yet, sorry to disappoint you.

[yeahwho]

How does Boehner rate on the patriot scale? Talk about an ad hominem style of posting.

[travesty]

Still stuck on that daily vocuabulary builder page with "ad hominem"? Flip the page bro, you've been on that one for about a year and half now.

[Dorothy Wood]

I'm sorry are you saying the US has never done anything to change the course of the world for the better? If so I am going to to take exception with that statement.

Dorothy I'm not asking you to "blindly approve" in what your country does. I don't either. I'm asking you to do what every citizen should...participate in the fight to make it better. Whatever you think "better" should be. That's what will continue to make us great. When people quit caring to try and make things better, as you are choosing to do, and take the attitude of "Meh, if it suits me I'll stay, otherwise I'll leave" then we are certain to fail.
That's all I'm saying. Make your voice heard, not for me, but for you.

I'm not trying to be all Team America Fuck Yeah but I am also not going to take the soft spined route of not standing up for what I belive is right and wrong with this country. It has nothing to do with me trying to make myself "feel important" just because I don't coalesce to you, and others on this board's, attempts to make me feel guilty about being an American. I'm not happy with how things are going either but I haven't given up yet, sorry to disappoint you.
well, people who've lived in the U.S. have done alright things, but the country didn't do it. you're speaking of the u.s. as if it's a person capable of thoughts and feelings. and that's not how i think of it.

i don't believe that one particular country and its inhabitants could ever be the ultimate best. but i want the human race to succeed, and if it means the human race succeeds at a different coordinate on the earth, so be it.
nothing is permanent. no matter how much we'd like it to be.
i don't think anyone should feel guilty about being american, and i really don't think that's how we're trying to make you feel.

[yeahwho]

Still stuck on that daily vocuabulary builder page with "ad hominem"? Flip the page bro, you've been on that one for about a year and half now.

You are so mature and suave. I guess you really put me in my place. The topic has drifted pretty far from professional politicians and I'm trying to point that out to you.

[Dorothy Wood]

You are so mature and suave. I guess you really put me in my place. The topic has drifted pretty far from professional politicians and I'm trying to point that out to you.

i think we could bring it back full circle if you think about how politcians like boner right now are manipulating the people into believing change is bad and scary, because they're afraid of change. afraid that if they don't keep tricking people, their standards of living would go down, they'd lose lobby perks.

perhaps that's too obvious of an observation though. *shrugs*

[travesty]

Why? Were you feeling left out?

Dorothy,I think I'm seeing your point. For me I guess I just have always felt that people working together can do great things and that in the course of history, America was/is one of those great things. I'm not saying it's the end all be all of civilization because it's not. But over the last couple hundred years it has proven to be ridiculously successful. In fact it is still, by a very large margin, the most immigrated to country as people from all over the rest of the world continue to envy what we have done here. Entire world markets are based on our currency fer chrissake, how many countries can say that? It wasn't easy and I'm just trying to acknowledge what it cost to get to where we are. I don't take that for granted because you are right that nothing is permanent. We're way off track in this century but I still believe that the founding principles of this society are something special. The greatest thing about it is that it takes all kinds of people and opinions to make it work correctly. The more diversity we have, the better our system functions...and that's something to be proud of.:)

[Dorothy Wood]

phew, glad we clarified some things and it seems we agree on many points. I might still have a problem with that "p" word, ha, but i see what you're saying.

:thumbsup:

[Turchinator]

Still stuck on that daily vocuabulary builder page with "ad hominem"? Flip the page bro, you've been on that one for about a year and half now.


I lol'ed.


"conoctation"

[yeahwho]

I just thought I would add to this thread the 60 minutes interview "John Boehner: Real Men Do Cry (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_162-20025417-10391709.html)" and an extremely accurate response from writer Timothy Egan.

The Tears of John Boehner (http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/the-tears-of-john-boehner/?src=me&ref=homepage)
By Timothy Egan

For whatever reason, Boehner’s life story never gave him a broader governing vision for the folks he knew in his hometown of Reading, Ohio. When he turns on the waterworks while talking about them, it raises two questions:

Is Boehner crying because he escaped that fate? Or because of the person he has become — a politician whose votes show he couldn’t care less for the people he left behind?

a few nice comments (http://community.nytimes.com/comments/opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/the-tears-of-john-boehner/?sort=recommended) too

[kaiser soze]

drunk, emotionally unstable, or just playing games?

The American dream in his eyes are you're either shining his shoes or shining your own before you ship off to war.

[saz]

lewis black rips drunken hypocrite boehner starting @ 2:18 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSjyVzsPlQY)


John Boehner's Crying: Is He Drinking Too Much?

Matt Lewis
Columnist
PoliticsDaily.com (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/15/john-boehners-crying-is-he-drinking-too-much/)


As is to be expected, Republican aides and lobbyists are not anxious to publicly discuss whether the incoming House speaker might have a drinking problem. And Boehner's staff declined to discuss the crying question at all. For his part, though, Boehner -- who was described in one profile (http://washingtonexaminer.com/local/2008/11/fighting-right) as "a heavy-smoking, hard-drinking former linebacker" -- has made no secret of his affection for merlot, and those familiar with Capitol Hill know he frequents The Capitol Hill Club, as well as a favorite Italian restaurant on Capitol Hill, where he is frequently spotted sipping vino.

When President Obama mentioned that he ran into Rep. Boehner at a holiday party last year drinking eggnog, Boehner responded, "I was drinking wine (http://thehill.com/capital-living/in-the-know/71535-boehner-corrects-obama-i-drink-wine-not-eggnog)." And when recently asked about attending a "Slurpee summit with the president," Boehner quipped, "How about a glass of merlot?"

But the speculation is becoming more widespread. Earlier this year, Joe Scarborough noted of Boehner that "by 5 or 6 o'clock at night, you can see him at bars (http://thinkprogress.org/2010/06/30/boehner-lazy-scarbrough/)." And as Politico reported (http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/0507/Boehner_cries_again_getting_a_rep_as_a_weeper.html ), "One of [Boehner's] GOP colleagues noted that Boehner cries more often later in the day."

Sometimes when he's tearing up, he also appears to be slurring words, as was the case during a 2007 floor speech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir1UABBe1v4). But even here it's impossible to diagnose (if the Terry Schiavo case taught us anything, it's not to diagnose something via video). Boehner's slurred words might simply be a result of his trying to speak loudly while not trying to cry. On the other hand, it should be noted that "occupational functioning (http://www.step12.com/alcoholics-definition.html)" is frequently mentioned when defining "alcoholism."

[yeahwho]

His whole "I came to Washington with Core Values" and " I worked every small job/night watch out there" jargon is just fucking total bullshit.

I've been wrenching on night watch the past half a year that fucking punk wouldn't last holding a flashlight for me.

Go cry someplace else, I'm busy bustin' my ass to help out with your corporate welfare ideas. He really irritates me to no end.

[saz]

rolling stone writer and author matt taibbi discusses how john boehner wants to axe congressional ethics office (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoBvbtbdPEM)

[kaiser soze]

So boehner squeezes out some tears today but they'll dry up quickly for he has a party to catch!

http://www.rollcall.com/news/-202400-1.html

Speaker John Boehner will host a cocktail party for the Republican National Committee at the same time that President Barack Obama will be addressing the nation at the memorial service for victims of the Tucson shooting.

I know they're a few million in the hole and all, but a little class costs nothing.