Beastie Boys and Wu Tang

[Kid Presentable]

In the old days I wouldn't have been even able to tangentially compare them. But since they both did the same Hop-Hop Honours show I now think "fuck it why not"?

Now, I love both groups, but I find myself listening to much more Wu at the moment. Which would lead me to think that surely I prefer Wu.

But then the 'Recently Played' playlist delivers me Egg Raid, Netty's Girl and Pass the Mic in a triumvirate and it's hard not to put the Beastie Boys back on an even keel for the sheer lunacy of some of their output.

I venture that Wu-Tang did much more for hip-hop in the 90s, while at that time the Beastie Boys did a lot for shitty goatee flesh-tunnel fuckheads and nu-rap metal faggotsy, mostly in spite of themselves, it seemed.

But the Beastie Boys probably helped blow rap in the 80s up to a point where a group like the Wu could come along.

[Kid Presentable]

Or we could be like fuck it and just compare the Nas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoMPxSi9iUM) Collabos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNB8pNqwrKw).

And let's remember Wu-Tang has been responsible for a lot of really shit music at certain points, while nothing the Beastie Boys have ever released could be considered truly awful. Even your least favourite Beastie jawn is elevated by the fact that they did it.

[Lex Diamonds]

I'm guessing you might have expected me to reply on this, so I won't disappoint. People here may or may not know that I pretty much idolise both Wu-Tang and the Beastie Boys. I also think that they're incomparable, for a few reasons.

I was reading a little of the Wu Tang Manual just last night actually- such an insightful book, read it if you haven't. The background behind how the Clan came together was so organic and family-driven... RZA talks about their neighbourhood and how it was originally an incredibly strong local identity thing, whereby the Staten Island dudes of his generation implemented all these different things into their culture. The honour and brotherhood of the kung-fu mythology blended with their own experiences of street upbringing plus Five Percenter and eastern philosophies to create this unique movement... everybody in the area was part of it, but it was so contained to one area and one mindset that it felt totally unique and like it had been invented by the rappers themselves. Bearing in mind that a lot of Wu affiliates and people who were part of the original "Wu Tang" culture (before they got together musically) had no involvement in hip-hop, and when they did drop the album a large amount of the group's appeal was the mindset and philosophy (Tao) it represented. So it didn't grow out of anything musical, that just happened to be how they reached people. I think that the level of education and passion they all had made it inevitable that they would be talented MCs and producers. Although saying that they were a "supergroup" of sorts, with a few of the guys being brought into Staten from other boroughs for their skills and educated in the Tao before they even started recording together.

The Beastie Boys on the other hand, are music through and through. They come from artistic families and grew up in a place where several music genres had been/were being born. They had a hand in many genres right from the beginning, were a central part of massive cultural movement (in punk as well as hip-hop) and definitely- like you mentioned- helped blow hip-hop up and make it "acceptable" in the music biz or whatever you wanna call it. In that way, they are a lot more musical and have done more for the music as an artform so I judge their songs on a different scale of merit to the Wu's- it's a lot more about the way their music makes you feel and an overall positive message (ie old skool hip-hop) than telling you something real and emotional, which is how I see the difference. That's certainly not to say they don't have their share of poignant songs... but they have a whole lot more rhymes about eating muffins and playing pranks on grandparents than the Wu. They are also a lot more accessible and transcend race, age, nationality and everything else a lot more readily than Wu Tang, which counts for something.

I guess what I'm getting at is while they may be equally influential, the two groups come at hip-hop with different agendas and created totally different listening experiences. Although Wu Tang had a lot of old skool principles, especially in their dress and general appearance they weren't a bona fide old skool rap act like the Beastie Boys started out as. Plus they nearly always tried to speak truth whereas the Beastie Boys had a lot of fun with it and fucked around. It's kind of like the difference between watching a film and reading literature- although I'd be hard-pressed to say which was which.

[Kid Presentable]

The Wu (or the RZA at least, and by extension the rest of them) is much more into being the Wu, than the Beastie Boys are into being the Beastie Boys. Like the whole self-identity thing is serious bidness to one group, and a complete joke to another, and it's that fact which is in turn each groups strength.

Both groups came into their own creatively on some fucked-up record label shit, too. The Def Jam saga birthed the hottest recording streak for a rap group in quite some time from Paul's to Hello Nasty. And then of course, Tommy Boy fucking Prince Rakeem over for House of Pain will be one of those 'fork in the road' moments for rap music history. It's funny.

They have completely different energies, and obviously are completely different as musical entities, yet they have a huge influence in common, sick catalogues, they get crazy respect (mutually if some sources are to be believed). It's a comparison that has always interested me.

I like the literature vs film analogy. I don't know if I'm connecting to that point with this point, but the difference between live performances is interesting. You watch the Hip Hop Honors thing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEP43zlUi08) (plenty of other examples exist, though) and when the Wu do C.R.E.A.M not once do you think that the beat would switch up, and nor would it ever, because to do so would be criminal. Yet the Beastie Boys switch their beats up with abandon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzXGMi_AD5w), without degrading the perceived quality of the source material.

[Sir SkratchaLot]

The Beasties were heavily into the Wu back in the mid to late 90s. There were many referenced to Adrock calling the Wu Tang hotline.

[Kid Presentable]

Every year Triple J (local independent youth-oriented radio station - not as shit as it sounds) do this dream festival where they play live sets by groups across an entire weekend.

They played Beastie Boys from late 95 (I think they played Looking Down the Barrel in this set but it wasn't on this particular broadcast), and all through the set Mike is going "Ticaaaaal" , and they rhymed over Bring the Pain during Stand Together, which I gather wasn't all that uncommon at the time.

So yeah Beastie Boys fucked off for a bit after that and Wu just owned for a while I guess.

EDIT: That show was Summersault (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summersault_%28Australian_festival%29), and the Beastie Boys counted in the New Year (1996). Looks like Bikin Kill were on the bill, too. hmmmm

[M|X|Y]

You guys are both really articulate - good read. (y)

[Kid Presentable]

You guys are both really articulate - good read. (y)
Thanks, but I'm going to have to quote Siffalitik and say "Compliments are mad awkward, I'd rather be hated on"

[pesto pizza]

my favourite raps groups are the 1.beastie boys and 2.wu tang clan(then a tribe called quest and cypress hill).
I would say the beastie boys and wu tang clan are nothing alike,I wonder how many other beastie boys fans like wu tang.

[Kid Presentable]

Well, things don't have to be identical to be alike. You just have to look at shit a little bit.

[Lex Diamonds]

Truth. For someone who claims to be a fan of two of the most introspective groups of people in recent musical history this dude seems to have a very basic understanding of the world.

My favourite foods are the

1. Burritos
2. Pizza

I would say burritos and pizza are nothing alike, I wonder how many other burrito fans like pizza.

[Brother McDuff]

y'know, i've hit reply on this thread more than once in an effort to weigh in, for I too am a big fan of both groups, though no matter how hard I tried I really couldn't gather any real comparisons between the two. aside from the obvious rap classification, they really are on two opposite spectrums of the hip-hop universe. it's a beautiful illustration though of how two immensely unique approaches, collectives, and backgrounds can hinder two completely different though genuine interpretations of the same genre.

one could argue that they share a certain legitimacy, passion, and ingenuity, but that's far too broad a statement to make regarding art. great artists are great artists, and the more drastic their differences under the umbrella of the same genre the more that style of music has to gain as an overall entity and forward-moving art-form.


on a sidenote, considering the Beastie Boys' rather thorough efforts to enlist as many revered producers to remix their music as possible over the past two decades, it's a little shocking that they never called on RZA to flip one of their joints. or have they and I just don't know?

[Kid Presentable]

You ever done shrooms McDuff?

[pesto pizza]

Truth. For someone who claims to be a fan of two of the most introspective groups of people in recent musical history this dude seems to have a very basic understanding of the world.

My favourite foods are the

1. Burritos
2. Pizza

I would say burritos and pizza are nothing alike, I wonder how many other burrito fans like pizza.

mine to for real.
i'm wondering if i'm mis-reading most of the posts on these boards there seems to be a bad vibe with everything about 4 or 5 people write or maybe i'm too sensitive as i'm sure kid presentable will write.there are always bullys in school and workplaces, I guess it will be no different here.this is the only thing I respond to on the internet,I think I will give it a rest.well done you've won!

[Kid Presentable]

Well, it's a serious band and we demand to be taken seriously.

[Brother McDuff]

You ever done shrooms McDuff?



;)

[Chrisco83]

I like the beastie boys, wu-tang, burritos and pizza

[silence7]

Big admission here......

I'm not a big fan of most new hip-hop/Rap... I'm more a fan of OLD School Hip hop/rap..(First rap song I ever heard was Sugarhill Gang's Rapper's Delight on Vinyl.. About 1980 or so.) (I come from a punk/industrial/speedmetal/goth background) And I'm more focused on whomever it is behind the turntables. Basically I'm a fan of DJ's, the rhymes are (sometimes) secondary. I do however enjoy the back and forth between MC's..... I'm a fan of funky beats, scratching, beatboxing, and all that funky hip-hop shit that has nothing to do with gangsta anything. Straight up, fun, hip-hop jammies.... I hate the Gangsta, boasting, look at me side of rap.

Here comes the big reveal. I, ...... just 3 days ago listened to my first Wu Tang album. 36 Chambers. First listen... Bah..... Whatever.....

I'm not a fan of droppin' Nigga' every five seconds, and other misc. cursing in a track for Effect. It just turns me off.... Don't ask me why, I dunno'

I've listened to the album approx. 6 times so far. Vol. at 11, in the car speeding. So far my favorite track is Chessboxin' I love the music and the MC switchups. ODB... That dude is just crazy bad ass... I never realized this before.. He's really good... Crazy as, Well a crazy person I guess, but somehow I feel him.. I never would have guessed...... Me and ODB connecting via the big boy headphones and loud car stereo. He just feels "Real"...

The album is starting to grow on me...

Next Wu Album???????

[Lex Diamonds]

I've encountered a lot of people here that say they "only listen to old skool" so don't worry, that's not a big admission. I also find that most down to earth people who give Wu Tang the time of day really like them- real recognise real, as a great poet once said.

I think this whole old skool-centric thing just comes from like you said an aversion to cursing and explicit subject matter. You'll also find that most of these people wear high waisted jeans, don't drink or take drugs and live with their parents at the age of 30. Yet they still love to talk about how Run DMC used to "rock the mic" and the Beastie Boys are "ill as hell". Curious.


ps
pesto pizza, no one can bully you over the internet, stop being a whiny bitch, grow some balls and engage in some intelligent discussion. Otherwise you are 1. Bringing nothing to this thread and 2. Not adding to this thread

[silence7]

I think I may be starting to fall for you Paddy, but not in that way.

No high waisted jeans, I'm drunk way more than I should be. 40oz (Mickey's) +3 12oz so far tonight. And I'm almost 40. No living with the parentals. I've just grown up in a very different world. I had many friends who were "Hip-Hop" growing up, and many "harcore/goth/industrial" friends. I was the guy who tolerated all musical tastes. I loved that people loved music. I never really sided with any one musical taste. I will rock Hank Williams Sr. just as hard as I will rock the Cro-Mags, The Cure, Bauhaus, or any other band.

In the last 6 or 7 years, I feel like I've gone through a transformation in musical understanding and enlightenment. I think, in a big part by running my site, and hearing all the crazy stuff the guys come up with. Beastie Boys -vs- ???? ??????. So I go and look up ???? ??????, and I'm amazed how I missed this.. Open Mind = Good Thing!

I'm an old dog who CAN be taught new tricks.

I'm gonna give this "New" Wu-Tang deal a try. Like I said It's growing on me. Being a fan of old Kung-Fu movies is a plus in this case. ;)

[Lex Diamonds]

If you like what you heard on "Enter" and you're not ready to move fully new skool (to be honest a lot of their recent shit feels like they're just going through the motions, although it's still sick in my opinion) then I strongly recommend you check out their solo efforts.

I'd say the essential starter albums are Ghostface Killah's "Ironman" and Raekwon's "Only Built 4 Cuban Linx", two of the greatest hip-hop albums ever made. If you want something a little easier to dip in and out of then check out Ol' Dirty Bastard's "36 Chambers: The Dirty Version" or Method Man's "Tical". Then if you think you're ready move on to GZA's "Liquid Swords" for some deep lyrical shit.

[Kid Presentable]

Liquid Swords isn't deep, it's just got heaps of GZA wordplay and the best production. Should definitely fuck with that one first.

Dirty version sounds freestyled and the production is off-cuts, but it's still pretty good in spots. Tical sounds rushed but has its ok moments (I liked it much more when it came out than I do now), Ironman is ok if you liked Cuban Linx but Supreme Clientele (Ghosts second solo album) shits on it. Cuban Linx is amazing, but I dunno, sort of hard to recommend to someone just coming off 36.

Just found this list (http://www.prefixmag.com/features/wu-tang-clan/top-10-wu-tang-albums/16433/). Dunno how I feel about it, but you'll see some themes coming out of all these recommendations, I'm sure.

[Lex Diamonds]

I know it's a popular opinion to say that Supreme Clientele is Ghost's best album but for me, it and Ironman are pretty much equal. It doesn't shit on Ironman in any way, that's for sure. Ironman is much better structured and works as a smoother whole, for one thing. Definitely much closer to old Wu production wise as well, that's why I recommended it over SC.

I wouldn't say Liquid Swords has the best production out of these albums either, but whatever. For me it's just a very lyrical album, if you're not prepared to sit still and listen intently then I wouldn't use it as any kind of starting point- GZA's rhyme schemes and intonation could be pretty hard to follow for someone new to the Wu. Sounds like we pretty much agree on Dirty and Meth's debuts though.

Anyway from the way dude described his 36 Chambers listening experience I would still say start with Ironman as it has the most switch ups in style and tag-team MCing of all the albums (except maybe OB4CL which as you said is a whole different kettle of fish to 36).

[Kid Presentable]

I think it's only a popular opinion about Supreme Clientele in the same way it's a popular opinion not to smoke crack. Ironman owns in spots, as they all do from that era, but Ghost is a bit meh over the breadth of the thing. He's not even on the best track.

Liquid Swords is dark and a little warped beatwise, Shogun samples all through it, GZA has like a sophisticated old-school flow, it's perfect for Silence7 based on what he's said.

[Kid Presentable]

Oh, and BEASTIE BOYS

[Lex Diamonds]

Aight den, silence7 go listen to both Liquid Swords and Ironman. Then all the other albums, in chronological order. Listen to each at least 5 times. Then come back and we can really talk.

Oh and I guess listen to some Beastie Boys too.

[Kid Presentable]

Lining up Ironman and Liquid Swords really shits on my neck. Maybe he could go and listen to some BEASTIE BOYS and Cuban Linx and Liquid Swords?

[Lex Diamonds]

Whatever man, I don't want you to have a shitty neck.

Damn, I got milk on my Clarks.

[M|X|Y]

Thanks, but I'm going to have to quote Siffalitik and say "Compliments are mad awkward, I'd rather be hated on"

Oh shut the fuck up, you old bitch :D(y)

[Kid Presentable]

No problem, man. Thanks!

[cj hood]

i didn't read this entire thread, but 2 differences i could think of is that the Wu's stage presense is mad chaotic and they fight over everything which is why you rarely see them performing together which is basically the opposite of the beasties....

on another note i just got a soundboard boot of the Wu from the Source awards '95 which is pretty sweet...

[Kid Presentable]

I always loved this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1d-wEE5QV8), and thought there are so many ways they could slot the instrumental (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9Ov5ivELYQ) into their live shit. I'm instantly leaning toward a switch-up on Open Letter but I'm a cock.

[Lex Diamonds]

I'd like to hear them drop this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfn5WMHC0T0) beat into some live shit. But that's just because it's one of my favourite little loop type beats regardless. The storytelling in that song is some of the best ever too.

[Kid Presentable]

I like Faster Blade. BEASTIE BOYS

[Lex Diamonds]

We eat fish, toss salads and make rap ballads. Beastie Boys.

[JoLovesMCA]

I can’t say I ever really got into Wu but I have mad respect for them. On that note I can’t compare them musically with the Beasties because for me the BB’s are more than just a musical group. I love them for their personalities, the way they work together, their friendship, their constant changes and reinventions of themselves and their music over the years. Wu doesn’t seem to have evolved as much… I mean from my perspective. BUT I can put them into that ground breaking must be respected pioneers of rap category.

Oh and I am also a big fan of old school and really prefer the fun rap of the late 70’s, 80’s. Hated some of the 90’s rap in those horrible dance songs. But most of it sucked horribly, too cheap sounding, not much to it. Anyway I have enjoyed a bit of the gangsta too. I love Ghetto Boys and Ice Cube. And still love Cypress Hill too. But Beasties are my number one. They give me a little bit of everything.

[dave790]

I think Cypress Hill have better tunes than Wu-Tang over the same period. That's just me.

[Brother McDuff]

Call it the most obvious song to recommend, but fuck it; just listen to "Triumph", Silence. In fact, watch the video too. To me, that song encapsulates Wu-Tang more than any. The beat, the showcasing of each MCs different styles, the Kung Fu references, the street talk, the philosophy. It's just so heavy. Oh yeah, and did I say watch the video? Yeah watch the video, completely def.

I understand there are some big Wu heads up in this thread, so I understand that suggesting arguably their most well-known song may ruffle some feathers or damage my Wu-cred, but hey, this cut is tiiiiiight!! beastie boys.

[Kid Presentable]

^nah it's tight they all kill their verses.

[Kid Presentable]

I think 'Incarcerated Scarfaces' was on that Mixmaster Mike Beastie Breaks thing. In fact, I could swear it turned up in their 99 show in Perth, over one of their older tracks.

[Lex Diamonds]

On the subject of New Wu, I don't see how people can hate on this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRVYNdw4QjQ).

Taking into account his other recent guest spots, I think Ghost is the strongest member at the moment. I thought he killed it on In The End (fruity Mark Ronson track). Then Rae I reckon. Looking forward to Liquid Swords 2 though.

[silence7]

I'm gonna' say right here, I'm glad I dropped into this thread.

My musical taste has been called eccentric before, and I feel I'm fairly particular about what I like and don't. I guess everyone is. I'm probably not special at all.

So in the last day, I've discovered I like RZA, and ODB the most. When they're all together it's fun, and I love the tracks where they're all jumpin in. I have a thing about people's voices, If I don't like them it will kill a track for me. Like I said RZA, and ODB's crazy ass have me feelin' them the most.

Listened to: 36 Chambers, Wu-Tang Forever, Return to the 36 chambers (ODB), and RZA as Bobby Digital in Stereo so far.

Thanks again Paddy.... Like I said before, I am an old dog who CAN learn new tricks... Wu seems to be like a Crock-Pot band, put them on, let them simmer, and when all is done, you have a delicious treat at the end. If that makes ANY sense...

[Lex Diamonds]

Yeah, that's a good analogy. It's like the difference between purple tops and two for 5's, right?

[Lex Diamonds]

And now you've got an introduction, listen to Raekwon's Only Built 4 Cuban Linx or Ghostface Killah's Ironman. Both deep, cinematic and atmospheric albums. You can literally sit there and listen like you're watching a movie, they're incredible.

[Brother McDuff]

They just got so many different flavors of strong personality. No one is comparable to anyone else (within or outside the group really). Very distinct voices, pronunciations, slangs, subject matter. Just a buncha dope emcees chewing on gritty beats, one at a time, taking turns.

As poetically as I can put it, it's pretty much a group made up of 9 solo artists that shred mics (and this is proven). But they form like a Voltron and get deep like a Navy Seal. ;)

[fonky pizza]

Never go out without Beastie and the Wu in my mp3:cool: