Uprising in Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria

[p-branez]

Rising food and energy prices from cheap USD (http://www.nationalreview.com/kudlows-money-politics/258325/food-riots-bernanke-partially-blame), disgust at presidents who stand for the interests of the elite and not for the working people (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2014070735_egyptmubarak29.html), and the exposure of delusional policies that emphasize military might (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/8290133/Most-US-aid-to-Egypt-goes-to-military.html).

Sound familiar? How long before the revolution hits your city?

[Schmeltz]

I imagine travesty will pop in here pretty quick with some silly bullshit about how "irrelevant" your opinion is as far as protests in the Middle East are concerned. Just ignore him.

There's really very little comparison to be drawn between the situation in North Africa and that in North America or the West at large. Western societies are considerably more affluent, educated, and (most importantly) democratic than the countries that are witnessing this upheaval; unlike the citizens of these dictatorships we enjoy the prospect of voting out unpopular policies and politicians. I don't think the revolution has much chance of making its way over here anytime soon.

The real concern lies with what will replace the regional strongmen who are coming under pressure from these disaffected populations. The protests don't seem organized or controlled enough to produce an orderly, secular, liberalized version of democracy akin to the Western model, raising the possibility of fundamentalist religious groups like the Muslim Brotherhood stepping into the power vacuum. This would be a very damaging setback for the entire region, particularly where Israeli-Egyptian relations are concerned. A viable alternative to dictatorship needs to be organized, and quickly, if these popular uprisings are to have any really positive effect.

[saz]

the muslim brotherhood not only rejected violence long ago, but would only obtain approximately 1/3 of the vote in any free and open egyptian election. egypt, like tunisia, has an educated middle-class, and these are the people who are leading the demonstrations, the middle and working classes, and the impoverished. their main grievances are unemployment, poverty, human rights and government transparency. none of these revolts have been or are being led by religious extremists. if mubarak falls, it is very likely that mohamed elbaradei will lead egypt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfgR7l3rFxs

[travesty]

I imagine travesty will pop in here pretty quick with some silly bullshit about how "irrelevant" your opinion is as far as protests in the Middle East are concerned. Just ignore him.

Well Schmeltz if you happen to posit another one of your small minded, peurile opinions about how, even though you live in Canada, you know the real reason behind these people's frustrations and motives for protest like you do with anything related to American social problems or politics then I will continue to say that you are irrelevant and I will continue to be correct. So far you haven't stooped to your usual M.O. and I can only assume that it is simply because this does not involve the US directly and thus doesn't spur your insecurities as much. As such, I can only say kudos.(y)

[Drederick Tatum]

if you're going to try and use adult words 1) spell them correctly 2) use them correctly.

calling one of the most articulate posters in this forum 'puerile' is...puerile.

[dugmatics]

I don't see how anything changes with Elbaradei in power. He'll be a recycled Mubarak except less friendly to Israel similar to how Turkey has become the past 2-3 years (which should please the masses). He'll still be too pro-west for the MB, but they don't have the abilities/popularity yet to take him down like Hizballah's just done to Hariri, so bottom line - new government, same Egypt.

[saz]

an increase in government transparency, free, fair and monitored elections, an increase in human rights, legal rights, not being thrown into a jail in the middle of the night, then tortured (what the people are demanding) etc. it's very likely not going to be the same egypt. and i don't see what's wrong with turkey, a secular, democratic, pro-western european state which is a model for the arabic world.

[M|X|Y]

great live coverage (24/7 i think) online.. bookmark!
http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

[dugmatics]

an increase in government transparency, free, fair and monitored elections, an increase in human rights, legal rights, not being thrown into a jail in the middle of the night, then tortured (what the people are demanding) etc. it's very likely not going to be the same egypt. and i don't see what's wrong with turkey, a secular, democratic, pro-western european state which is a model for the arabic world.

There's no guarantee that there'll be an increase in any of the above after these events. In any case, the MB and their type will have to be taken into account in any new government that'll be formed.

Turkey isn't an Arab country. They can't be a model for the Arab world. As an indication of how different they are, they've had separation of mosque and state for almost a century, which is something that - for historical reasons - doesn't exist (and never existed) in Arab countries. Also, Erdogan, a religious wacko, has been in power the past few years and is anti-Israel and getting close with Iran and Syria. Nothing to be emulated by free democracies.

Egypt, as an Arab country, won't have in the near future anything similar to what exists in Turkey. It'll still have to be a Muslim country. A western-like secular society won't just magically emerge. Best case, they'll probably be a more religious Turkey. I don't see how that improves anything. Their first step has to be separation of mosque and state. And it doesn't look like that'll be happening now...

[saz]

Turkey isn't an Arab country.

right. it's full of hindus.


They can't be a model for the Arab world. As an indication of how different they are, they've had separation of mosque and state for almost a century, which is something that - for historical reasons - doesn't exist (and never existed) in Arab countries.

lebanon, iraq, qatar, syria, egypt, tunisia. granted the last three are/were authoritarian regimes, they're secular.


Also, Erdogan, a religious wacko, has been in power the past few years and is anti-Israel and getting close with Iran and Syria. Nothing to be emulated by free democracies.

so standing up to israel's war crimes makes one a religious wacko? that believing israel's nuclear arsenal should be inspected by the iaea? by further integrating turkey within the european union? by placing turkish courts under the european court of human rights?


Egypt, as an Arab country, won't have in the near future anything similar to what exists in Turkey. It'll still have to be a Muslim country. A western-like secular society won't just magically emerge.

i wasn't implyin that it would "magically emerge". care to share your crystal ball?

[TimDoolan]

Explosion damages Egyptian pipeline, the third most strategically important piece of energy infrastructure in Egypt.
http://blogs.forbes.com/christopherhelman/2011/02/05/egypt-pipeline-explosion-cuts-gas-supply-to-israel/

[Schmeltz]

right. it's full of hindus.

He's technically right: Turkey isn't culturally or ethnically an Arab country. It's, well, Turkish. But he's also wrong, because Turkey can certainly serve as a model for the wider Islamic world and how its governments can co-opt and thereby defuse radical Islamist movements within its societies. Doug Saunders' coverage of the events in Egypt is on point lately:


It has become all too apparent (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/doug-saunders/the-trouble-with-egypt-what-will-obama-make-of-this/article1895330/page2/) that the violent actions of al-Qaeda and other movements have been spurred and provoked, rather than quashed, by Arab authoritarian regimes... Israel’s peace agreement with Egypt and its tacit understanding with Jordan, in this light, were not the first steps toward a wider peace, but the end points of a failed process. The sealed southern border with Egypt has turned the Palestinian refugees of Gaza into a desperate and increasingly radical community, isolated from the broader Arab world. The old “stability” was the root cause of the new instability.

...

What happens when Islamist parties gain power? (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/whos-afraid-of-the-muslim-brotherhood/article1895651/?cmpid=rss1) First, we should ask what happens when they’re explicitly denied power. And we know that outcome. When these popular movements are repressed, as Egypt has done brutally for six decades, the frustrated adherents have switched to non-political, violent means: All jihadist movements, including al-Qaeda, were born as responses to this frustration...
When these parties are allowed a role in democratic government, there’s a pattern. Remember, however alarming their ideas about women and Israel, the Muslim Brotherhood and its neighbouring parties represent the people who explicitly rejected the violent option (and were shunned and sometimes attacked for this by the jihadists) because they wanted a place in a legitimate government...
The most prominent example is Turkey, whose governing Justice and Development Party (AKP) began as an illegal Islamist movement but then, seeking electoral credibility, purged its sharia faction and won a majority. It has ruled for nearly a decade as an aggressively pro-European government that has co-operated with Israel and has done more for women’s rights than its secularist predecessors. Its leaders tell me they are “Islamic in the same way that Angela Merkel’s Christian Democratic Party is Christian.”

It's to be hoped that this type of genuinely pluralist democracy could emerge in the wake of Mubarak's hopefully imminent departure: one in which the Muslim Brotherhood can legitimately participate without having to resort to the kind of violence typical of Islamist movements with no other forum to air their (absurd) grievances. It's a good sign that the demonstrations so far have been entirely secular and not rabidly anti-American, anti-Zionist, or fundamentalist in nature. But it's less good that no real organization appears to be coalescing behind them. I keep waiting for a more organized, coherent movement to assemble and it doesn't seem to be happening, which leaves the Brotherhood as the best-organized and most established form of opposition. To see them emerge from these events with a disproportionate share of influence in the future shape of Egyptian politics would be very worrisome; action needs to be taken now to ensure that their radical religious politics are relegated to their proper place in a democratic framework.

Also, Erdogan, a religious wacko, has been in power the past few years and is anti-Israel

Yes, and the Israelis certainly haven't done anything to worsen their relationship with Turkey. Nothing at all. Right? Come on. If Israelis are suddenly worried about becoming even more internationally isolated than they already are, perhaps they ought to think about retracting some of their more poorly conceived policies, like the expansionist building in East Jerusalem and ongoing colonization of the West Bank. When your only regional allies are totalitarian military dictators subject to the sudden whims of massive political protest, like Mubarak, maybe it's time to start thinking about ways to make new friends.

I imagine travesty will pop in here pretty quick with some silly bullshit

Well would you look at that - I was right! :D

[dugmatics]

right. it's full of hindus.

That's a completely ignorant statement. Turks aren't Arabs.
The Arabs are the guardians of the prophet and of Islam. Turks or Indonesians or Somalis aren't. Even when the Mamluks, Seljuks etc ruled the region they made sure the caliphate remained in Arab hands.



lebanon, iraq, qatar, syria, egypt, tunisia. granted the last three are/were authoritarian regimes, they're secular.

Lebanon, Qatar, Iraq etc. aren't secular at all. Muslim law isn't the state law like in Saudia but Islam rules as a culture. Try eating in public during ramadan
in any of those places...



so standing up to israel's war crimes makes one a religious wacko? that believing israel's nuclear arsenal should be inspected by the iaea? by further integrating turkey within the european union? by placing turkish courts under the european court of human rights?

I never said that.
Anyhow, Erdogan's known to be a devout Muslim. Nothing wrong with that, but it shouldn't be influencing Turkey's public affairs. Many Turkish also think so.



i wasn't implyin that it would "magically emerge". care to share your crystal ball?

You said Egypt 'very likely won't be the same'. What were you implying then?
I don't have any crystal ball, I just know the region and people firsthand.

[dugmatics]

He's technically right: Turkey isn't culturally or ethnically an Arab country. It's, well, Turkish. But he's also wrong, because Turkey can certainly serve as a model for the wider Islamic world and how its governments can co-opt and thereby defuse radical Islamist movements within its societies. Doug Saunders' coverage of the events in Egypt is on point lately:


Yes, Turkey can theoretically be a model for the Arab world, but in reality, bc of cultural/historical reasons it won't for the time being.


It's to be hoped that this type of genuinely pluralist democracy could emerge in the wake of Mubarak's hopefully imminent departure: one in which the Muslim Brotherhood can legitimately participate without having to resort to the kind of violence typical of Islamist movements with no other forum to air their (absurd) grievances. It's a good sign that the demonstrations so far have been entirely secular and not rabidly anti-American, anti-Zionist, or fundamentalist in nature. But it's less good that no real organization appears to be coalescing behind them. I keep waiting for a more organized, coherent movement to assemble and it doesn't seem to be happening, which leaves the Brotherhood as the best-organized and most established form of opposition. To see them emerge from these events with a disproportionate share of influence in the future shape of Egyptian politics would be very worrisome; action needs to be taken now to ensure that their radical religious politics are relegated to their proper place in a democratic framework.



Yes, and the Israelis certainly haven't done anything to worsen their relationship with Turkey. Nothing at all. Right? Come on. If Israelis are suddenly worried about becoming even more internationally isolated than they already are, perhaps they ought to think about retracting some of their more poorly conceived policies, like the expansionist building in East Jerusalem and ongoing colonization of the West Bank. When your only regional allies are totalitarian military dictators subject to the sudden whims of massive political protest, like Mubarak, maybe it's time to start thinking about ways to make new friends.


That guy's slightly off. There were plenty of people holding Mubarak posters with Jewish stars drawn on his face, and there were plenty of people calling him a zionist. Let's face it, not many people in the region like Israel. No point in saying they aren't anti-Israel.

Israel was building more in the past and yet had wonderful relations with Turkey. Erdogan is the cause of the discord.

What are you talking about??? Assad, Kadafi, Ismael Haniyeh, King Fahd, the Emirs of the gulf states, Nasrallah etc. aren't totalitarian military dictators? You serious?

[saz]

Turks aren't Arabs.

no shit. and i never said in this thread that turks are arabs.


Lebanon, Qatar, Iraq etc. aren't secular at all. Muslim law isn't the state law like in Saudia but Islam rules as a culture. Try eating in public during ramadan
in any of those places...

uh, yes they are. regardless of your spin that it rules as a culture, the bottom line is that they are secular governments in secular countries, in which there are varying degrees of affluent, pro-western, educated middle-class, which includes women who can pursue higher educations and careers.


I never said that.
Anyhow, Erdogan's known to be a devout Muslim. Nothing wrong with that, but it shouldn't be influencing Turkey's public affairs. Many Turkish also think so.

first he was a religious wacko, but now he's a devout muslim and there's nothing wrong with that. right. regardless, i don't see how it is influencing turkey's public affairs, seeing as erdogan's been doing all he can to strengthen turkey's role in europe via the european union and the european court of human rights, getting rid of freedom of speech and press restrictions, legislating a partial amnesty for pkk members, allowing the kurdish language to be used in every major form of media, and expanding universal health care to all those under eighteen.


You said Egypt 'very likely won't be the same'. What were you implying then?


what i said in my first post, that the scenario of a corrupt strongman who has horded vast amounts of egypt's wealth for himself and built up an oppressive regime likely will not emerge again, seeing as egypt, like tunisia, has an educated middle-class, and these are the people who are leading the demonstrations, the middle and working classes, and the impoverished. their main grievances are unemployment, poverty, human rights and government transparency. they are calling for freedom and human rights. none of these revolts have been or are being led by religious extremists.


That guy's slightly off.

no he's pretty much spot on.


There were plenty of people holding Mubarak posters with Jewish stars drawn on his face, and there were plenty of people calling him a zionist.

so what. are we supposed to constantly and continually kiss israel's ass and garnish their government with constant praise, despite their war crimes, human rights abuses, and the like?


Israel was building more in the past and yet had wonderful relations with Turkey.

no they're building and expanding at an ever rapid pace.


Erdogan is the cause of the discord.

no i'd say this is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7NbMKZmTlQ), as well as this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11393836).

[Schmeltz]

Well, for better or for worse, they've actually done it (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/crisis-in-egypt/latest-news/mubarak-steps-down-cairo-streets-erupt-with-joy/article1903248/). He's gone. Incredible!

[TimDoolan]

Yub nub, eee chop yub nub

[TimDoolan]

Iran's parliament calls for Execution of Opposition Leaders.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/15/iran.protests/index.html?hpt=T1

[TimDoolan]

At least 2 dead and hundreds injured in Bahrain crackdown.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/16/bahrain.protests/index.html

[Burnout18]

The important thing in all this, is how can the protesters use the bahrain F1 grand prix to their advanatage.

[freetibet]

The important thing in all this, is how can the protesters use the bahrain F1 grand prix to their advanatage.

Let's hope no F1 team members get injured. My Roman catholic prayers are with them.

Oh and Hussein Osama's reverend buddy (Wright) and the other marxist buddy (looks like a clown a.k.a. West) are friends of Kadafi on F-book^^ Ooops, somebody is a muslim born in Kenya!

The author of this message is thrilled while hearing about North Africans killing each other :*

[Bob]

that post was too racist for most racists. now i'm sure you're not real :(

[saz]

Oh and Hussein Osama's reverend buddy (Wright) and the other marxist buddy (looks like a clown a.k.a. West) are friends of Kadafi on F-book^^ Ooops, somebody is a muslim born in Kenya!

The author of this message is thrilled while hearing about North Africans killing each other :*

racist douchebag

[TimDoolan]

Gadhafi Palace Torched (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/02/24/wedeman.gadhafi.palace.cnn?hpt=C1)

[TimDoolan]

No Fly Zone and U.S. assistance
(http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/28/military-repositions-forces-preparation-libya-response/)

[p-branez]

There's really very little comparison to be drawn between the situation in North Africa and that in North America or the West at large. Western societies are considerably more affluent, educated, and (most importantly) democratic than the countries that are witnessing this upheaval; unlike the citizens of these dictatorships we enjoy the prospect of voting out unpopular policies and politicians. I don't think the revolution has much chance of making its way over here anytime soon.



I believe for a certain period of time the peaceful protests in Madison, Wisconsin were the largest in the world.

That is not to say all the causes of protest are the same in Cairo as in Madison, but the visible outcome is the same: people are coming together in public places demanding that their voices be heard.

[Schmeltz]

The visible process is the same, not the outcome. For the outcome to be the same, Scott Walker would have to resign in disgrace and flee the state, leaving an interim caretaker government to organize the first elections in decades. The most you can say about the situations in Wisconsin and Egypt is that they both involve mass demonstrations; aside from that broad generality, there's not much basis for comparison there.

[TimDoolan]

U.S. asks for U.N. permission to Strike Lybia (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/17/seeks-resolution-authorizing-wide-range-strikes-libya/)

[TimDoolan]

...And the U.S. attacks Libya. (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/19/libya.civil.war/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1)

[kaiser soze]

And while the U.S. parks it's ass in Bahrain - people are being killed without a word or a finger raised.

It's nice to see we have another war on our hands - I mean come one, we have all this money we have to waste for nothing!

This is just another nail in the coffin of this country - Seriously when is this nation going to SEE that it needs to focus it's resources on making this nation greater rather than dropping our dreams in the form of bombs on the heads of people we will never know.

Peaceful Anti-War Vets arrested outside Whitehouse - what rights did they fight for again?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leLgyzpDEtc&feature=player_embedded#at=240

NObama 2012, he has lost my vote...and I'm sure the alternatives will suck as much

[TimDoolan]

Why Reagan bombed Libya. (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/03/20/1986.reagan.us.bombs.libya.cnn?hpt=C2)

[Schmeltz]

And while the U.S. parks it's ass in Bahrain - people are being killed without a word or a finger raised.

It's nice to see we have another war on our hands - I mean come one, we have all this money we have to waste for nothing!

This is just another nail in the coffin of this country - Seriously when is this nation going to SEE that it needs to focus it's resources on making this nation greater rather than dropping our dreams in the form of bombs on the heads of people we will never know.

I don't know about any of that, kaiser. The Libyan resistance and the Arab League asked for a no-fly zone, and they got one backed by a legitimate UN Security Council Resolution. This intervention is not illegal or unilateral. Some civilians will surely be killed, but how many would have died if Gaddhafi's thugs and mercenaries had been let loose on Benghazi? This is why the UN was founded and it's pleasing to see some credence being given to the process of international law.

There might not be any such thing as a just war, but there are just causes and preventing Gaddhafi from massacring his own people is one of them. Obama's played this exactly right.

NObama 2012, he has lost my vote...and I'm sure the alternatives will suck as much

Well, good luck living in Sarah Palin's America. You're going to need it.

[kaiser soze]

I don't know about any of that, kaiser. The Libyan resistance and the Arab League asked for a no-fly zone, and they got one backed by a legitimate UN Security Council Resolution.

Looks like they changed their minds

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iRRC-Ij_xoxpHpSxJd-LVDd1JHXQ?docId=999067b967b7412c83d7cce7921da560


CAIRO (AP) — The head of the Arab League has criticized international strikes on Libya, saying they caused civilian deaths.

The Arab League's support for a no-fly zone last week helped overcome reluctance in the West for action in Libya. The U.N. authorized not only a no-fly zone but also "all necessary measures" to protect civilians.

Amr Moussa says the military operations have gone beyond what the Arab League backed.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-arabs-20110321,0,4707165.story

The Arab League urged the United Nations to impose a no-fly zone over Libya. Now, with French warplanes and U.S. Tomahawk missiles streaking across the North African sky, the league is criticizing the air assault as Arab kings and presidents confront decades-old ironies, religious animosities and fears they will be blamed for siding with Western imperialism.

A No-Fly zone does not mean cruise missiles.

And Bahrain and Libya are two different places. Bahrain's revolt is being smacked down with the Support of the Saudis and the U.S. has a naval base there.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bahrain+shooting&aq=5

http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/articles/currentevents/bahrainprotests2011_5.htm

Nearly 1,000 soldiers from Sunni-run Saudi Arabia arrived in Manama, Bahrain's capital, to help quell a rising tide of unrest by Bahrain's Shiite minority. The Saudi government said the soldiers, who arrived with jeeps, armored troops carriers, and ambulances, were part of the Gulf Cooperation Council, a regional defense force. The United Arab Emirates was also expected to lend support to the Bahrainian government.

So the protests are deemed inexcusable and deserve violent govt intervention (where the U.S. is stationed), but the U.S. and allies go attack another nation dealing with the same?!? Talk about double standards and truly showing little consistency with our mission in the ME. Bahrain violence against civilians ok -> Libyan violence not.


Secondly - I do not support war. I am and I'm sure many million civilized human beings on this planet are sick of it. The U.S. is in no position to be putting itself into another conflict considering how difficult of a time we've been pulling ourselves out of our own mess. Why do we sell weapons to the countries in that region to only have to waste our tax dollars, technology, and lives. The Middle East needs to sort this mess out themselves, it has been proven time and time and time again outside nations cannot babysit this region with lasting results.

Well, good luck living in Sarah Palin's America. You're going to need it.

At this point, I'm having a hard time telling the difference between him and his opposition.

[Schmeltz]

A No-Fly zone does not mean cruise missiles.

It absolutely does. The establishment of a no-fly zone consists of two phases, the suppression of enemy air defences and subsequent combat air patrols. Cruise missile strikes are a crucial component of the first phase. And anyway, with the level of success reported so far I think it very likely that there won't be many more missiles fired, especially given the White House announcement to the effect that the French and Brits are going to take the lead in the air patrol phase.

It's too bad to see the Arab League waver on this issue, since they got exactly what they were asking for. But given the level of their own collective contribution to the effort (precisely zero) it's rather baseless for them to criticize the implementation of the measure they themselves requested. I have a feeling they'll calm down when the bombardment wanes and the situation stabilizes, which will be all to the good.

And Bahrain and Libya are two different places.

...

Talk about double standards and truly showing little consistency with our mission in the ME. Bahrain violence against civilians ok -> Libyan violence not.

If Bahrain and Libya are two different places and situations, it stands to reason that different standards of assessment should be applied to them. It's true that there doesn't seem to be much talk about Bahrain, but then again no UN intervention was authorized in Tunisia or Egypt, and none seems to be under consideration for Yemen or Syria, each of whose governments has also cracked down violently on anti-government protesters. This is because the scale of the violence and unrest in Libya far transcends the situation in any of these other countries. In Libya a civil war was underway with a military dictator preparing mass military action against an entire city. The situations in Bahrain and elsewhere, while certainly tragic and unfortunate, haven't approached nearly that level of potential catastrophe. If the circumstances in these countries deteriorate to the same level as in Libya, perhaps UN intervention will be authorized. But for now Libya's a special case and the international community has so far responded to the situation with precisely the cooperation and regard for legal process that has been so sorely lacking in the world for the past decade or more.

Secondly - I do not support war. I am and I'm sure many million civilized human beings on this planet are sick of it.

Me too. I'm also sick of greed, corruption, exploitation, and inefficiency. But they're not going anywhere.

At this point, I'm having a hard time telling the difference between him and his opposition.

Here, maybe this will help (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/cracks-appear-in-coalition-as-libya-burns/article1949196/page2/):


“This is a great opportunity to replace a tyrannical dictator who is not a legitimate leader, who is an international crook … we should seize the moment and talk about replacing him, not talking about how limited we will be,” said Republican Senator Lindsey Graham.

The White House, echoing the President who had gone to Brazil for a long-planned visit, said toppling Col. Gadhafi, long regarded as terrorist-sponsoring, international pariah, wasn’t the objective.

“The goal of this resolution is not regime change,” said National Security Council spokesman Tommy Vietor.

[kaiser soze]

So a massacre in the U.S.'s backyard (Bahrain) gets little to no U.S. response - but tactical movements by allies who can take care of the job themselves in Libya requires our contribution.

From my perspective the opposition in Libya has taken to this more militantly than the protesters in Egypt/Bahrain and what I have seen so far on Bahrain are unarmed civilians getting mowed down.

http://www.arabtimesonline.com/NewsDetails/tabid/96/smid/414/ArticleID/166788/t/Bahrain-Shiite-clerics-warn-of-%27massacre,%27-seek-help/Default.aspx

MANAMA, March 15, 2011 (AFP) -Top Bahraini Shiite clerics sought Muslim and international help on Tuesday as they warned that anti-regime protesters will be targeted with a "massacre."

"We urge our Hawzah (Shiite religious schools) ... the Muslim World League, and the UN Security Council ... to immediately intervene to rescue those targeted by this catastrophe," a statement said.

They warned that a "horrible massacre is expected at (Manama's) Pearl Square against the people of this (Shiite) sect, only for peacefully demanding their rights."

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/166053.html

Western-trained killers, who are not national Bahrainis, use western-made weapons to fight men, women and children who march on peacefully to struggle for their democratic freedoms.

The US, that's naval fifth fleet stands by watching in an effort to protect oil price fluctuations, has gained conspicuous silence on peaceful protesters being mowed down in hails of gunfire rings loudly.

The tiny population is being massacred, even western reporters are not spared, and we may well ask - Where are the UN soldiers?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-5Ecwo3tgk

But you know - Bahrain hasn't...Oh Look it's Libya!

1 word for Military crackdown on a city with mass civilian casualties

FALLUJAH.

[kaiser soze]

please tell me if I'm wrong

Weren't Bin Laden and Hussein born from U.S. assistance in similar situations?

Do we know the TRUE motive of the anti-govt militants in Libya?

Did you know that BP scored a pretty big oil exploration contract there just a few years ago.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/4783746/BP-Libya-contract-still-valid

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/7892112/BP-admits-lobbying-UK-over-Libya-prisoner-transfer-scheme-but-not-Lockerbie-bomber.html

Is this about the violence or is it about securing the oil contracts...

[Schmeltz]

Weren't Bin Laden and Hussein born from U.S. assistance in similar situations?

Bin Laden? No. Hussein? Yes. What is your point? That U.S. military assistance has a tradition of being disastrous? I'll concede that. But this is not Bush-style unilateral American military intervention. This is a UN-sanctioned multinational intervention with the full force of the approval of international law.

Do we know the TRUE motive of the anti-govt militants in Libya?

Do we know the TRUE motive of the anti-government protesters in Bahrain? Maybe they're all CIA plants meant to stir up a hornet's nest of regional agitation. Maybe they're all al-Qaeda operatives trying to foment chaos in which their radicalism will flourish. Maybe they're all Revolutionary Guards trying to create an Iranian outpost alongside Saudi Arabia. Maybe they're all shape-shifting alien lizard men paving the way for a pan-galactic interplanetary takeover.

Or maybe they're just ordinary people sick of being denied their basic rights as human beings, and prepared to take action - even sacrifice their lives - for the sake of their cause. I suspect that's the answer and I suspect the same is true of the Libyan rebels, whose numbers include defecting military officers and soldiers and whose movement is primarily urban and educated, and therefore unlikely to be concerned with tribal rivalries, al-Qaeda, or whatever it is you are getting at here. If I've missed your point please let me know.

Did you know that BP scored a pretty big oil exploration contract there just a few years ago.

Is this about the violence or is it about securing the oil contracts...

I don't understand. If the oil contracts have already been secured... why is a war necessary to secure the oil contracts? You have contradicted yourself.

Look, I appreciate your anti-war perspective as well as your frustration with the financial implications of the coalition intervention. But look at it this way: the West, the Arab League, and the United Nations Security Council have actually come to a consensus and halted an assault on a dissenting political element by a military dictatorship. It is quite likely that this intervention will produce a pause in hostilities in which the possibility of discussion between the two sides can be entertained. Your government is explicitly avowing that it will play a limited role in hostilities, in consultation and cooperation with the international community.

Yes, it isn't pretty and people are dying. But it's a damn sight better than letting Moammar Gaddhafi's thugs and goons loose without mercy (to quote the man himself) on people so desperate for freedom from his despotism that they took up arms to oppose him. This is the type of international effort that could never have been imagined under Bush. So whatever you want to say about Barack Obama and his many flaws and imperfections, he has played his cards exactly right in this situation, as he frequently does in foreign policy (domestically... that's another story, I guess). Vote for Palin if you can stomach it, but the man deserves better. If Bush had approached Afghanistan and Iraq like this we'd all be ecstatic.

[kaiser soze]

securing as in protecting

anyways - I just can't find how it's warranted for the U.S. to lob cruise missiles into Libya when there's a fire in their own backyard. I just can't - there's more to it. And if this is about the whole U.S. fighting for the freedoms of people against a corrupt gov't bit - why aren't we in Africa?

thanks for your vote of confidence -but bin laden's a ghost so a new bogeyman is needed and this was a great opportunity to pick. Time to liquidate stock so the Pentagon can justify it's new and improved bloated budget while our citizens go broke.

[kaiser soze]

Ghadaffi compound destroyed

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/2011/03/21/libya-allied-jets-bomb-colonel-gaddafi-s-compound-in-tripoli-86908-23004923/

ALLIED aircraft bombed and badly damaged Colonel Gaddafi's own personal compound early today.

A building just 50 yards from the tent where Gaddafi normally meets guests was reduced to rubble.

The attack came after Defence Secretary Liam Fox said the crazed tyrant was a "legitimate target".

Was that part of the No-Fly Zone? What about the rumors of human shields and civilians?

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/2011/03/21/libya-allied-jets-bomb-colonel-gaddafi-s-compound-in-tripoli-86908-23004923/



RAF held back due to collateral damage fears

The Ministry of Defence said Sunday night's planned attack was called off as Tornado jets neared their undisclosed target.

Strategic communications officer Major General John Lorimer said: "As the RAF GR4 Tornados approached the target, further information came to light that identified a number of civilians within the intended target area.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Article/201009115956904

[kaiser soze]

Libya price tag - oh, about $100 million

Thank god we're cutting the cost of caring for our citizens and infrastructure to blow other citizens and infrastructure up!

http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=47381&oref=todaysnews

With U.S. and coalition forces bombarding Libya leader Muammer al-Qaddafi's forces from the sea and air, the cost for the first day alone of the operation was well over $100 million with the total price tag expected to grow much higher the longer the strikes continue, analysts said.

There's not even a war economy to hold this country up....wtf.

[kaiser soze]

Which Freedom Package Does Your Country Want?

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-march-21-2011/america-s-freedom-packages

[Burnout18]

Did anyone really expect obama to not flex the military muscle at least once in four years?

I dunno where that puts the nobel peace prize tho....

[kaiser soze]

Up the ass of Alfred Nobel?

[TimDoolan]

CIA Operatives in Libya. (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/30/libya.war/index.html?hpt=T1)

[kaiser soze]

U.S. blamed for media black of Bahrain violence

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/172567.html

Reports from the Center's colleagues in the United States say “In the US some news agencies and TV stations were asked not to report on Bahrain and not to embarrass [President Barack Obama's administration,” Rajab told Press TV.

(n)

[Schmeltz]

Are you really quoting state-funded Iranian media as a source of information on this issue?

(n)

[kaiser soze]

sorry you don't like my source so here's a bunch of other ones

http://www.google.com/search?q=us+orders+silenve+bahrain&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

also - what would be YOUR explanation as to why Bahrain has gone silent in the media?

[Schmeltz]

infowars.com? prisonplanet.com? Seriously - davidicke.com? Sorry, I don't like any of those either.

Bahrain actually has not "gone silent" in the media, if you look up "Bahrain news" on Google you will be presented with a raft of material by reputable organizations from within the last few days. So what's your question, really?

[kaiser soze]

The popular Media - quite so quiet, what I am seeing is Libya consuming the majority of interest with these protests/revolutions at this time.

but here's one from The NY Times - maybe this one is a bit more your style?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/02/world/middleeast/02iraq.html?_r=1

Shiites in Iraq Support Bahrain’s Protesters

BAGHDAD — The violent suppression of the uprising in Bahrain has become a Shiite rallying cry in Iraq, where the American war overturned a Sunni-dominated power structure much like the one in place in Bahrain.

Ahmad Chalabi, an erstwhile American partner in the period before the invasion of Iraq in 2003 and a Shiite member of Parliament, on Friday denounced what he called a double standard in the Western powers’ response to the uprisings in North Africa and the Middle East — particularly in Bahrain, where a Sunni minority dominates a vast and restive underclass made up of his Shiite brethren.

[Schmeltz]

The popular Media - quite so quiet, what I am seeing is Libya consuming the majority of interest with these protests/revolutions at this time.

That's because there's a civil war going on in Libya, one which has prompted a UN resolution and multilateral military intervention. The scale of these events is much larger than those taking place in Bahrain, or Yemen or Syria for that matter. It stands to reason that Libya gets more airtime.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. Why is the media focus on Libya such a big deal? It seems very readily explicable to me.

[Drederick Tatum]

why exactly isn't the Arab League policing this no-fly zone? what's the use of selling the region all these weapons if they can't be put to at least partially just use.

the Saudis alone have nearly 400 jets they could potentially be using.

[Schmeltz]

Watch that UN muscle flex, y'all (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/un-and-french-forces-close-in-on-ivory-coasts-gbagbo/article1970416/). Now this is interesting. Cote d'Ivoire doesn't have any oil. So what's going on here?

[dugmatics]

an increase in government transparency, free, fair and monitored elections, an increase in human rights, legal rights, not being thrown into a jail in the middle of the night, then tortured (what the people are demanding) etc. it's very likely not going to be the same egypt. and i don't see what's wrong with turkey, a secular, democratic, pro-western european state which is a model for the arabic world.

Really?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/15/maikel-nabil-sanad_n_849603.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb9XFrszZgQ

Blogger arrested for criticizing government - 3 years in jail. Damn.

[saz]

not only have elections not occured and a new government has yet to be formed, but egypt has till yet to completely dump the old regime.

[TimDoolan]

The death of Osama Bin Laden cannot be underestimated during this time of great middle east upheaval. While the Egyptian and Libyan etc transfers of power does not necessarily mean good news for either the United States or Israel, the death of figurehead of Al Qaida is certainly a huge victory for the united states and the war on terror.

[kaiser soze]

Please keep in mind Bahrain and Syria as well -

Also remember many "Number Twos" to bin laden have been killed throughout the years, there will always be a vacuum for this kind of villainy.

And also remember war is BIG business.

I hope this brings some closure to the victims of his heinousness, but unfortunately it will never bring back those they loved.