SO - Who is responsible for the reason behind politicians calls for cuts? [Archive]

saz

02-21-2011, 03:34 PM

^ spot on (y)

wall street got us into this recession, but of course the republicans, who do wall street's bidding (as do the dems) want unions to "sacrifice" in order to pay for it, and strip them of their basic collective bargaining rights. that is so wrong, seeing as unions have already made concessions.

all of the major banks on wall street were involved in a criminal fraud scheme which involved selling mismarked mortgage backed securities. they were selling toxic subprime mortgages, and hiding or covering up them up with complicated and convoluted mathematics, and then sold them off on a massive scale (billions and billions of dollars) to pension funds, insurance companies, and banks in china, holland and iceland as triple-a rated securities, and in the process effecting and destroying the lives of millions of people. the people who looted america, ie wall street, got away scott free. there are now a million people in foreclosure, and the people who sold them those predatory loans are still living like jet-setting fat cat aristocrats. only angelo mozilo from country wide got punished, and he still was able to keep three quarters of his net worth.

but of course, it's the fault of the unions. the teachers, the nurses, the firefighters and the cops. these are the people who were the victims of this mortgage backed securities scheme, and these were the places (the suburban middle and working class) where these banks were selling these toxic subprime mortgages which would eventually blow up. now the states have to pay these pensions, and the states are broke. and after cutting taxes for corporations and the top two percent of the wealthiest americans, they’re blaming the teachers, the firemen, the police, and other public workers.

stop picking on and trying to destroy the middle and working class who didn't cause this mess (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErkBkxWNbxI)

Statement from Green Bay Packer Charles Woodson in support of working families in Wisconsin

Last week I was proud when many of my current and former teammates announced their support for the working families fighting for their rights in Wisconsin. Today I am honored to join with them. Thousands of dedicated Wisconsin public workers provide vital services for Wisconsin citizens. They are the teachers, nurses and child care workers who take care of us and our families. These hard working people are under an unprecedented attack to take away their basic rights to have a voice and collectively bargain at work.

It is an honor for me to play for the Super Bowl Champion Green Bay Packers and be a part of the Green Bay and Wisconsin communities. I am also honored as a member of the NFL Players Association to stand together with working families of Wisconsin and organized labor in their fight against this attempt to hurt them by targeting unions. I hope those leading the attack will sit down with Wisconsin’s public workers and discuss the problems Wisconsin faces, so that together they can truly move Wisconsin forward.

kaiser soze

02-22-2011, 07:02 AM

and the multi-billion dollar bonuses keep rolling in....the fleecing isn't even a secret anymore and Obama's support definitely isn't making it much better

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-bill-daley-financial-disclosur20110221,0,4520912.story

WASHINGTON — White House chief of staff Bill Daley took home nearly $8.7 million in salary and bonuses from JPMorgan Chase & Co. in a little more than a year before he left the financial giant.

Daley, 62, joined the firm in May 2004 and left in early January to become President Barack Obama's top aide. Daley was chairman of the Midwest region for the firm.

Ironic - Boehner hasn't done shit for job creation but is surely helping to kill them....and with shutting down the government? Don't worry - it won't be the parts of government that will effect our Congress critters. It takes money to make money - giving out tax breaks to corporations who outsource jobs or keep worker wages and benefits at unsustainable levels is how you create control - that is why they hate unions, it is a bureaucracy they have to compete with for influence.

abbott

02-22-2011, 09:18 AM

like I said... I am slow, some say special.....

I think I get it.

What about public education ... to me the biggest joke of them all and now taking more cuts... I already volunteer in the schools and so does my wife, but shit we gotta pay the bills too, wish I could count on the public education, but I know I cant.

saz

02-22-2011, 07:03 PM

"Why Isn’t Wall Street in Jail?" (video) (http://www.democracynow.org/2011/2/22/matt_taibbi_why_isnt_wall_street)

Why Isn't Wall Street in Jail? (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-isnt-wall-street-in-jail-20110216)

Financial crooks brought down the world's economy — but the feds are doing more to protect them than to prosecute them

By Matt Taibbi
February 16, 2011 9:00 AM ET

Nobody goes to jail. This is the mantra of the financial-crisis era, one that saw virtually every major bank and financial company on Wall Street embroiled in obscene criminal scandals that impoverished millions and collectively destroyed hundreds of billions, in fact, trillions of dollars of the world's wealth — and nobody went to jail. Nobody, that is, except Bernie Madoff, a flamboyant and pathological celebrity con artist, whose victims happened to be other rich and famous people.

The rest of them, all of them, got off. Not a single executive who ran the companies that cooked up and cashed in on the phony financial boom — an industrywide scam that involved the mass sale of mismarked, fraudulent mortgage-backed securities — has ever been convicted. Their names by now are familiar to even the most casual Middle American news consumer: companies like AIG, Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, JP Morgan Chase, Bank of America and Morgan Stanley. Most of these firms were directly involved in elaborate fraud and theft. Lehman Brothers hid billions in loans from its investors. Bank of America lied about billions in bonuses. Goldman Sachs failed to tell clients how it put together the born-to-lose toxic mortgage deals it was selling. What's more, many of these companies had corporate chieftains whose actions cost investors billions — from AIG derivatives chief Joe Cassano, who assured investors they would not lose even "one dollar" just months before his unit imploded, to the $263 million in compensation that former Lehman chief Dick "The Gorilla" Fuld conveniently failed to disclose. Yet not one of them has faced time behind bars.

saz

02-23-2011, 07:30 PM

governor scott walker gets punked hard: the buffalo beast (http://www.buffalobeast.com/)'s editor ian murphy, called governor walker's office and posed as billionaire david koch, half of the infamous koch brothers (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer).

governor walker punked part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBnSv3a6Nh4)

governor walker punked part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3a2pYGr7-k)

Top Six Revelations in the Call Between Fake David Koch and Governor Scott Walker (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jesse-berney/walker-koch_b_827129.html)

Jesse Berney.Principal, Jefferson Street Strategies
Posted: February 23, 2011 12:54 PM

The call made by a Buffalo blogger pretending to be billionaire right-wing activist David Koch to Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker is quickly making an impact on the news cycle. (You can listen to the call on YouTube: Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBnSv3a6Nh4) | Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3a2pYGr7-k).)

Walker is extremely frank with the man he believes to be an important financial supporter, both of his own campaign and right-wing causes. Below are the six most important revelations we learn from listening to the Governor speak his mind.

1. Walker and the Senate Republicans are conspiring to withhold Democratic lawmakers' paychecks.

A minute into the call, Governor Walker describes a plan by the Senate Majority Leader to institute a new rule that would stop automatic deductions of lawmakers' paychecks if they do not appear in the Senate for more than two days. It would require lawmakers to appear in person to collect their checks.

Walker describes this as part of a plan he is working on with GOP Senators: "Each day, we're going to rachet this up a little bit."

2. Walker sees billionaire David Koch as "one of us."

Two and a half minutes in, Walker is describing a conversation he had with a Democratic state lawmaker, Tim Cullen, who Walker says is the "only reasonable" one among the Democrats. When the man pretending to be Koch suggests he calls Cullen, Walker says that although Cullen is reasonable, he is not "one of us." Who is the "us" that includes Walker and out-of-state billionaire Koch, but not an elected state legislator?

3. Walker is planning to threaten state workers with layoffs.

Five minutes into the call, Governor Walker says he is planning to issue between 5,000 and 6,000 "risk notices" to state workers announcing that they are at risk of being laid off. He makes this statement in the context of what he is planning to do to put pressure on Democrats to cave into his demands, not what is necessary due to the budget crunch. "If they want to start sacrificing thousands of public workers to be laid off," he says, "sooner or later there's gonna be pressure on Senators to come back. We're not going to compromise."

4. Walker has a plan to lie to Senate Democrats and pass the bill while they are not aware of the vote.

Seven minutes in, Walker describes a plan created by his chief of staff to call Senate Democrats back to "hear what they have to say." While he is discussing the issues with the Democrats, the Senate would be in recess. In actuality, once Democrats come back to the state assembly, Republicans would be able to pass the bill eliminating collective bargaining rights while Walker is in discussions with Democrats.

5. Walker considered planting fake protesters to cause trouble among the real protesters.

Fourteen and a half minutes in, the fake David Koch says that they are considering "planing some troublemakers" among the crowd of protesters. Walker responds with, "we thought about that." He expresses no moral objection to the plan, but says that he thinks it is the wrong strategy, because a "ruckus" would make people think he should compromise.

6. Walker is corrupt.

Although early in Walker says they are investigating the Democratic Senators to see if they are committing ethics violations by accepting union funds, when the fake David Koch says he will fly Walker "out to Cali and really show you a good time," Walker responds by saying "that would be outstanding."

kaiser soze

02-26-2011, 06:50 PM

Oh LOOK - Police join Wisconsin protesters while Walker sucks Koch

http://understory.ran.org/2011/02/25/breaking-wisconsin-police-have-joined-protest-inside-state-capitol/

“Hundreds of cops have just marched into the Wisconsin state capitol building to protest the anti-Union bill, to massive applause. They now join up to 600 people who are inside.”

Ryan reported on his Facebook page earlier today:

“Police have just announced to the crowds inside the occupied State Capitol of Wisconsin: ‘We have been ordered by the legislature to kick you all out at 4:00 today. But we know what’s right from wrong. We will not be kicking anyone out, in fact, we will be sleeping here with you!’ Unreal.”

And Walker's discussions with a "Koch"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBnSv3a6Nh4&feature=related

ACORN haters eat your heart out!

saz

02-27-2011, 01:58 PM

pittsburgh's rally for the middle-class (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UmZYlSyC5U)

"liberal media" eh

Media Blackout: CNN Fox News and MSNBC Ignore 100,000 WI Protesters (http://www.politicususa.com/en/cnn-fox-msnbc-ignore-wi)

Over 100,000 people in Madison, Wisconsin were joined by thousands of other Americans around the country in protest of Gov. Scott Walker’s attempt to strip collective bargaining rights from the state’s unionized workers, but you would not have known any of this if you watched cable news on Saturday as the coverage of the protests ranged from disappointing (MSNBC) to scant (CNN) to non-existent (Fox News).

AFL-CIO spokesman Eddie Vale estimated that the crowd was over 100,000 (http://news.firedoglake.com/2011/02/26/video-100000-plus-in-madison-for-rally-for-workers-rights/) people before the rally began at 3 PM. According to the Wisconsin State Journal (http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_19c56fb6-41d7-11e0-820b-001cc4c03286.html), police estimated the crowd size at around 70,000 three hours before the rally began, “Madison police spokesman Joel DeSpain said the number of protesters around the Capitol is on the scale of last Saturday’s peak crowd of an estimated 68,000 and could swell even more for a 3 p.m. rally.”

video (http://www.livestream.com/moveonorg/share)

As the official state run television of the Republican Party, Fox News has been openly and loudly supporting Gov. Walker. It is no surprise that the right wing network would ignore the events in Madison and around the country today. A propaganda outlet never spends much time relaying information that is detrimental to their message.

CNN, which is supposed to be the moderate network in the cable news ideological spectrum, sort of thought they should cover the story, so they did a few minute and half live cut ins here and there. No wall to wall coverage of course, but they at least managed to pull themselves away from celebrating the Tea Party long enough to take a quick glance at Madison.

Now we come to MSNBC. Sigh, the so called liberal news network. MSNBC couldn’t be bothered to break away from their Lock Up and Dateline reruns documentary bloc to cover a landmark event that has reunified the left, and is likely to have an impact on the 2012 presidential election.

If there is one network that progressives/liberals thought understood this, it was MSNBC. However MSNBC has never really been overly interested in covering the news, much less live news events on a weekend. If I had a dollar for every time MSNBC has disappointed their viewership by being AWOL when news happens, I’d be a very wealthy man.

All three cable networks share something else in common besides their decision to ignore today’s rallies. CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News along with most other forms of media have decided that liberal protests aren’t newsworthy. They believe that the ratings and the money are in the right, not the left. The three cable networks are corporate owned and only for the purpose of profit. They don’t care about journalism or their obligation to inform the public.

This is all about dollars, and the outdated notion that the most profitable way to run a cable news outlet is to be like Fox News, which is why CNN keeps hiring more and more right wingers and has hopped into bed with the Tea Party Express.

Wisconsin Protests Draw More Than 70,000 In Largest Rally Yet

Patrick Condon and Todd Richmond
First Posted: 02/27/11 09:18 AM l Updated: 02/27/11 02:15 PM
The Associated Press (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/27/wisconsin-protests-unions-largest-rally_n_828754.html?ref=fb&src=sp)

Madison, Wis. — Chanting pro-union slogans and carrying signs declaring "We are all Wisconsin," protesters turned out in cities nationwide to support thousands of public workers who've set up camp at the Wisconsin Capitol to fight Republican-backed legislation aimed at weakening unions.

Union supporters organized rallies from New York to Los Angeles in a show of solidarity Saturday as the demonstration in Madison entered its 12th straight day and attracted its largest crowd yet: more than 70,000 people. Hundreds banged on drums and screamed into bullhorns inside the Capitol as others braved frigid weather and snow during the massive rally that flooded into nearby streets.

Several thousand people gathered for a rally in Columbus, Ohio, where lawmakers are considering a similar bill. Indiana Democrats successfully blocked a Republican bill last week that would have prohibited union membership from being a condition of employment.

Large crowds of teachers, firefighters and public workers also gathered for rallies – holding American flags, wearing pro-union clothing and holding signs – in other capital cities including Topeka, Kan.; Harrisburg, Pa.; and Olympia, Wash.

In Los Angeles, public sector workers and others held signs that read "We are all Wisconsin" during a rally. Some wore foam "cheeseheads," the familiar hats worn by Green Bay Packers fans.

Covered in layers of coats, scarves, hats and gloves, about 1,000 rally goers outside the Minnesota Capitol chanted "Workers' rights are human rights" and waved signs, some reading "United we bargain, divided we beg."

"The right to collectively bargain is an American right," Eliot Seide, a local union leader, told the crowd in St. Paul. "You can't have American democracy if you don't have a strong trade union movement."

p-branez

03-06-2011, 10:10 AM

I have not seen the documentary, but saw this clip this morning on Meet the Press

Inside Job director (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpz5DVwnbnk)

And another voice, the Governor of the Bank of England, alerting the public to the crime that took place. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8355475/Anger-at-the-banks-is-justified-Mervyn-King-says.html)

"In some of his strongest language yet, Mervyn King today claimed the fall in households' living standards was the fault of the financial services sector and he expressed sympathy that innocent families paying the price.

"The people whose jobs were destroyed were in no way responsible for the excesses of the financial sector and the crisis that followed," he told MPs on the Treasury Select Committee."

It remains "a big political problem", he added: "I'm surprised the real anger hasn't been greater than it has."

In their quest to create a weapon of financial destruction that regulators, investors, and the general public could never understand, the Wall St. banks continue to be wildly successful.

kaiser soze

03-09-2011, 09:33 PM

It was not about the budget - it was about controlling the vote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLJdijPEBJE&feature=player_embedded

And Fitzgerald getting concerned about recall laws

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/wis-gop-leader-scott-fitzgerald-are-our-recall-statutes-legit.php?ref=fpb

Dorothy Wood

03-09-2011, 11:30 PM

So, do you guys think that the democrats are gonna go back with some kind of crafty legal plan and overthrow the Republicans?

Sir SkratchaLot

03-10-2011, 09:11 AM

It is sad how every disaster turns out to be a way for the rich to grab more money and power. It's fine to want to cut the budgets, but it's where the cuts are made that is the telling thing. It's why I can't back the republican party. It's not that their ideas are bad in general, its that they are consistently executed to advantage the rich and disadvantage the poor.

saz

03-10-2011, 12:00 PM

So, do you guys think that the democrats are gonna go back with some kind of crafty legal plan and overthrow the Republicans?

http://www.unitedwisconsin.com/

http://www.recalltherepublican8.com/

It's not that their ideas are bad in general

illegal invasion of iraq
half-assed occupation and rebuilding plans (fdr spent years planning for post-ww2 europe)
tax cuts for the top 2%
borrowing trillions from china to pay for two wars and tax cuts for the top 2%
prescription drug plan for the elderly also paid for on the china credit card
terry schiavo debacle
torture and guantanamo
tried to sell off american ports to dubai
defunding planned parenthood (would lead to an additional 40,000 abortions every year)
restricting women's abortion rights
gutting programs for the poor, working poor, working class
privatize social security
deregulation of wall street, no oversight
continually reward wall street, corporations and the super rich with tax cuts
declare war on the middle-class
strip workers of their rights to collectively bargain and to strike
blame the financial meltdown on the middle and working classes, the unions, and not wall street
oppose rebuliding america's crumbling infrastructure, high speed rail (china out in front on high speed rail)
don't believe in the science of climate change or evolution, it's all conspiracies, jesus knows best, so reward fossil fuel industry
need legislation to ensure that future african communist islamist radical christian foreigners aren't elected president

Sir SkratchaLot

03-10-2011, 02:57 PM

illegal invasion of iraq
half-assed occupation and rebuilding plans (fdr spent years planning for post-ww2 europe)
tax cuts for the top 2%
borrowing trillions from china to pay for two wars and tax cuts for the top 2%
prescription drug plan for the elderly also paid for on the china credit card
terry schiavo debacle
torture and guantanamo
tried to sell off american ports to dubai
defunding planned parenthood (would lead to an additional 40,000 abortions every year)
restricting women's abortion rights
gutting programs for the poor, working poor, working class
privatize social security
deregulation of wall street, no oversight
continually reward wall street, corporations and the super rich with tax cuts
declare war on the middle-class
strip workers of their rights to collectively bargain and to strike
blame the financial meltdown on the middle and working classes, the unions, and not wall street
oppose rebuliding america's crumbling infrastructure, high speed rail (china out in front on high speed rail)
don't believe in the science of climate change or evolution, it's all conspiracies, jesus knows best, so reward fossil fuel industry
need legislation to ensure that future african communist islamist radical christian foreigners aren't elected president

Yeah, um, I meant things like "fiscal responsibility" and "preventing government waste".

kaiser soze

03-10-2011, 06:25 PM

It is no longer the Middle Class it is the Slipping Class

What the rich and powerful really can't comprehend - you can't live off the back's of the poor forever. Turn our working class into what's represented in China, Mexico, India and you will lose progress (in the form of growth) and ultimately profits. Do people believe the uber-wealthy live off THEIR hard work. Shit, trading stocks is the new overtime.

Revolutions are breaking out throughout the world because THIS exact approach to class. Try to enslave intelligent hard working people and you will have upheaval. You think families who can barely pay their bills today will get you results compared to 40 years ago when 1 person in the home could handle it?

Try to take away health care and you create more debt (who can pay for it when they don't have benefits because their decent jobs have been turned to ruin)

Try to take away disposable income and who will buy your t.v.s? Your cars? your houses? your gas?

Burn the people who supported you and where will you get your votes?

eh who cares...it's just another step towards facism (n)

travesty

03-10-2011, 09:09 PM

kaiser soze

03-10-2011, 10:44 PM

ya know travesty, you have a.....eh, burp, gulp.....blaaaaaaaaaaarg!

*pukes on travesty's sneakers*

I wish I had something.....but...hack, gurg...blaaaaaaaaaaaaarf!

What are you doing here...........blaaaaaaaaragaaraaaarfg!

.....again?

travesty

03-11-2011, 09:56 AM

I'm simply injecting reason and rational thought into an otherwise lefty circle jerk of ideas and policies that are proving themselves on a daily basis to be unsustainable and destructive to individual states and our federal system. You can carry on with your blinders and keep the kumbaya drum circle going as long as you want. Don't barf on me because I can see the reality of liberal policies continuing to fail, continuing to place us further in debt and causing irreperable harm to millions who have bought into the snake oil.

You can blame Bush, The Republicans and Wall Street all you want for the temporary recession we're in and it's probably justified. But you can't ignore that it's Democrats, Unions and entitlement spending that have sunk this country into the abyss of debt that we currently find ourselves in. $222B in deficit in ONE MONTH under this administration and they think they're doing some great job by reducing the ANNUAL buget by $6B?? These people and those who support them are simply delusional.

While it's still humorous to me it's becoming and less entertaining to watch those on the left cry about shit that is simply inconsequential to the big picture. Peace.

saz

03-11-2011, 11:54 AM

Its always good to see the Dems get totally faced when they try and pull thier now standard operating procedure of being a bunch of fucking cry babies who throw tantrums and resort to running and hidding or other nefarious tactics when the opposition attemps to pass legislation that they don't like. Bunch of fucking spineless cowards, there is no honor in WI.

right, like that koch sucking walker, doing wall street's and corporate america's bidding, by waging war on the middle class, is displaying such honour - especially with that crank call.

When the Dems pulled all that back door, out of the box, ram it through at all cost manuevers on Obamacare and the stimulus plan it was A-OK around here.

right. just like the republicans bullied the democrats, america, and attempted to bully the rest of their allies and the world, to participate in the wonderfully planned and brilliantly executed illegal invasion and occupation of iraq. "you're either with us, or you're against us." ditto the patriot act. but of course, many democrats were more than willing to go along with disastrous republican policies. oh and the stimulus plan - more like the tax cut and jobs package, in which everyone's taxes were cut, probably including yours too, so i don't see why you're complaining - received some republican support from the last of the moderates in that party, who are being driven out by the insane batshit wingnuts who have taken over the party. and it was "A-Okay around here." wah wah.

But when the Repubs play the same game they get chastized.

wrong. when they attack the lifeline of a state, it's nurses, teachers et al, and want to take away their rights, well, it's their own choice really, to declare war on the middle class. but hey, we're seeing the consequences of that, with the recall of walker and eight republican state senators. but oh, i thought the republicans were all about "freedom" as well as the tea party? so much for that crock.

I guess as a mature adult I should know beter than to try and legitimize the
political forum on a hip hop band's website.

oh please. that is so patronizing. only the sheer and great presence of travesty can provide some legitimacy to this forum.

I should have stayed away from here but like a train wreck I had to peek in and see what this board was doing. Still puking left wing nonsense all over itself I see.

oh yeah, the "mature adult" is really displaying his maturity now, because any other differing opinion than his own has to be "puking."

(y) for the public sector unions taking a stern whooping in WI. Yeah for common sense. The sooner this happens in all states the sooner all American taxpayers can breath a little easier.

oh yes, because it was clearly the middle class, the nurses, the teachers, the police and firefighters who caused the financial collapse. it's their fault, and not wall street and their massive fraud, nor both the national republicans and democrats for continuing to cut corporate taxes and the top two percent.

I'm simply injecting reason and rational thought into an otherwise lefty circle jerk of ideas and policies that are proving themselves on a daily basis to be unsustainable and destructive to individual states and our federal system.

no, you just injected your own vitriol and angst into this discussion, plain and simple. you simply disregarded the reality of wall street's massive fraud; coupled with the republicans and the democrats doing nothing about it, not prosecuting any one from wall street, continuing to reward those same wall street banks, as well as the corporations and the top two percent with tax cuts they don't need; and then of course taking it out on those who had nothing to do with the economic collapse, and waging a war on the middle and working classes and working poor.

You can carry on with your blinders and keep the kumbaya drum circle going as long as you want. Don't barf on me because I can see the reality of liberal policies continuing to fail, continuing to place us further in debt and causing irreperable harm to millions who have bought into the snake oil.

oh yes, because bernie sanders and ralph nader have the ears of barack obama and the entire american political and economic establishment. we really need to stop that liberal agenda of obeying wall street, bailing them out and rewarding them with tax cuts, as well as continually cutting the taxes of top two percent, cutting federal assistance programs for the working poor and impoverished, increasing the defence budget and continuing the occupation in afghanistan, rewarding the oil industry with billions in subsidies (http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/01/house-gop-oil-subsidies/) - clearly, this liberal agenda is out of control.

You can blame Bush, The Republicans and Wall Street all you want for the temporary recession we're in and it's probably justified.

probably? more like definitely.

But you can't ignore that it's Democrats, Unions and entitlement spending that have sunk this country into the abyss of debt that we currently find ourselves in.

absolute nonesense. when the top two percent, wall street banks and corporations were actually paying their fair share of taxes and were accountable (you know, back in those good old days that the tea party wants to go back to, when the republican party was a moderate party led by moderates such as dwight eisenhower, richard nixon, gerald ford, george h.w. bush et al, when the top tax rate wasn't a paltry 36% and unions were strong at comprising 36% of the american workforce, and not the current 7% of the american workforce), the american middle class was extremely strong and vibrant, and at its peak. they were not the enemy, as they're being made to be now. they were the backbone of the country. they received excellent wages, with really only one income easily providing for an entire family, with not only good pensions and benefits, but could easily afford to send any offspring off to receive a post-secondary education. but now, so much wealth is controlled by the top two percent, with average salaries remaining stagnant since the 1980s while the salaries of ceos etc continue to sky rocket.

"Unions have a secure place in our industrial life. Only a handful of reactionaries harbor the ugly thought of breaking unions and depriving working men and women of the right to join the union of their choice."

- president dwight d. eisenhower, 1954

"the abyss of debt" was created by paying for two wars and a senior prescription drug bill on the credit card with china holding the tab, outrageous and irresponsible tax cuts for the top two percent who don't need them, continually funding an international empire (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12824) etc.

$222B in deficit in ONE MONTH under this administration and they think they're doing some great job by reducing the ANNUAL buget by $6B?? These people and those who support them are simply delusional.

a continuing and expanded occupation in afghanistan, the american empire, tax cuts for the top two percent which the republicans demanded, not cutting the defence budget and in fact expanding it - i agree, this is delusional.

While it's still humorous to me it's becoming and less entertaining to watch those on the left cry about shit that is simply inconsequential to the big picture. Peace.

cheers.

saz

03-11-2011, 12:32 PM

you probably won't see obama and the republicans get behind this:

Sanders introduces millionaire surtax to slash deficit
www.rawstory.com (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/11/sanders-introduces-millionaire-surtax-to-slash-deficit/)

Washington – As Democrats and Republicans battle over how much spending should be cut to bridge the budget shortfall, one senator is focusing on the other side of the equation: revenues...

A NBC/Wall Street Journal poll (http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_Politics/___Politics_Today_Stories_Teases/2-24-28-11.pdf) found late February that 81 percent of Americans believe a surtax on millionaires is an acceptable way to close the budget shortfall.

More Side with Wisconsin Unions than Governor (http://people-press.org/report/709/)

More side with the unions (42 percent) than with the governor (31 percent), with more than a quarter choosing neither side (9 percent) or unsure (18 percent). That's roughly the same result as another Pew survey (http://people-press.org/report/705/) taken earlier this month that found Americans typically side with public unions (44 percent) rather than state or local governments (38 percent) when the two disagree.

Poll shows support for organized labor (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20037469-503544.html)

Fifty-six percent say they oppose cutting the pay or benefits of (largely unionized) public employees to reduce state budget deficits, while just 37 percent favor doing so. And 60 percent oppose eliminating some collective bargaining rights for public employee unions, while just one in three Americans supports that idea.

"The poll shows public opposition to broad measures that would reduce the compensation of public employees or curtail their ability to negotiate through collective bargaining, even when placed in the context of helping to reduce state deficits and balance state budgets," said CBS News Director of Surveys Sarah Dutton

Majority in Poll Back Employees in Public Sector Unions (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/us/01poll.html?_r=2&emc=na)

Americans oppose weakening the bargaining rights of public employee unions by a margin of nearly two to one: 60 percent to 33 percent. While a slim majority of Republicans favored taking away some bargaining rights, they were outnumbered by large majorities of Democrats and independents who said they opposed weakening them.

Those surveyed said they opposed, 56 percent to 37 percent, cutting the pay or benefits of public employees to reduce deficits, breaking down along similar party lines. A majority of respondents who have no union members living in their households opposed both cuts in pay or benefits and taking away the collective bargaining rights of public employees.

USA Today/Gallup Poll (http://www.gallup.com/poll/146276/Scaling-Back-State-Programs-Least-Three-Fiscal-Evils.aspx)

Additionally, the new poll finds Americans opposed to their own state adopting a deficit-reduction proposal, like the one that has triggered a legislative standoff in Wisconsin, that eliminates some of the collective bargaining rights of most public unions, including the teachers' union. One-third of Americans say they would favor such a bill in their own state, while 61% would oppose it.

Americans Oppose Republican Attack on Unions in Poll Divided Over Benefits (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-09/americans-oppose-republican-attack-on-unions-in-poll-divided-over-benefits.html)

Americans reject Republican efforts to curb bargaining rights of unions whose power they say is dwarfed by corporations, a Bloomberg National Poll finds.

The poll shows that political challenges to government workers are failing to draw broad support from a public more concerned about unemployment than government deficits.

Sixty-three percent of those surveyed -- including a majority of Democrats and independents -- say corporations wield more political clout than unions. Public employees, meanwhile, are viewed favorably by a large majority: 72 percent, compared with 17 percent who have an unfavorable view.

Sixty-four percent of respondents, including a plurality of Republicans, say public employees should have the right to bargain collectively for their wages. Sixty-three percent, including 55 percent of Republicans, say states without enough money to pay for all the pension benefits they have promised to current retirees shouldn’t be able to break those obligations.

"Unions have a secure place in our industrial life. Only a handful of reactionaries harbor the ugly thought of breaking unions and depriving working men and women of the right to join the union of their choice."

- president dwight d. eisenhower, 1954

travesty

03-11-2011, 02:43 PM

right, like that koch sucking walker, doing wall street's and corporate america's bidding, by waging war on the middle class, is displaying such honour - especially with that crank call.

Or was he just doing FDR and George Meany's (http://http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/02/18/the-first-blow-against-public-employees/fdr-warned-us-about-public-sector-unions) bidding? Both agreed that unions had no place in the public sector. Or was he just trying to fulfill the campaign promises he ran and was elected on?

wrong. when they attack the lifeline of a state, it's nurses, teachers et al, and want to take away their rights, well, it's their own choice really, to declare war on the middle class. but hey, we're seeing the consequences of that, with the recall of walker and eight republican state senators. but oh, i thought the republicans were all about "freedom" as well as the tea party? so much for that crock.
Lifeline of a state? Teachers...that's rich. Collective bargaining is a privilege holmes. Don't get it confused with a "right" like you confuse healthcare as a "right". It's just not true. We'll see how far this Organizing For America driven recall effort goes. I predict nowhere.

oh please. that is so patronizing. only the sheer and great presence of travesty can provide some legitimacy to this forum.

Let's see... the last time I posted before today was 1/31. Since that time (5 weeks) seven new threads have been started. Average posts on those seven threads is 3.5. Now take the previous threads in January where I did contribute and the average number of posts is around 43 per thread. Hmmmm...if not legitimacy at least you can say I provide some reason for others to be here.

oh yeah, the "mature adult" is really displaying his maturity now, because any other differing opinion than his own has to be "puking."

That's my point. When I'm not here you all have the same opinion. So to sit around and agree with each other all day is meaningless. There is no advancement of the discussion. Obviously everyone agreees or the numbers I posted above would be different.

oh yes, because it was clearly the middle class, the nurses, the teachers, the police and firefighters who caused the financial collapse. it's their fault, and not wall street and their massive fraud, nor both the national republicans and democrats for continuing to cut corporate taxes and the top two percent.

No it wasn't but why should they be immune from the cuts we are all experiencing? As Americans they shared in the good time and they need to share in the bad times. Did you get a raise last year? Did you get cost of living increases the last three years of this recession at your job? They did.

no, you just injected your own vitriol and angst into this discussion, plain and simple. you simply disregarded the reality of wall street's massive fraud; coupled with the republicans and the democrats doing nothing about it, not prosecuting any one from wall street, continuing to reward those same wall street banks, as well as the corporations and the top two percent with tax cuts they don't need; and then of course taking it out on those who had nothing to do with the economic collapse, and waging a war on the middle and working classes and working poor.
How can you sit there with crosshairs blatantly targeting the "top two percent" and not expect them to target you back? Class warfare is class warfare. How much more do you think they should pay? How much more than you should another American be forced to hand over? How much should the government extort from it's most productive citizens to give to it's least? What's your magic number Saz?

Let's look at the numbers if you had your way;
Coprate tax collected in 2009 (http://http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/article/0,,id=102886,00.html)= $225B There is a nebulus figure but most people seem to think that eliminating ALL of the corprate tax breaks could potentially net another50-60% in revenue. Let's say $135B to be safe.
Oil Company "subsidies" (really tax breaks) are about $4B annually (http://http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/business/04bptax.html).
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan total expenditures (http://http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/business/04bptax.html)- $1.1T Let's just say $110B a year if we pay it off over ten years.

Cost of Bush Tax cuts for the "wealthy"- (http://http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/15/news/economy/bush_tax_cuts_faqs/index.htm)$700B over 10 years or $70B /year average.
Cut the US Military budget ($668B) by 25%. That's another $217B per year.
Eliminate Bush'd prescription plan at about $1T over ten years ir $100B/year

We'll leave the stimulus, Obamacare and auto bailout out of the equation since those were Democrat ideas;)

So Add 'em up in Saz's utopia= $636B per year additional revenue to the US treasury and we'll just ignore all of the jobs and revenue that run overseas when we crank the corporate tax rate on up.
Do you think that is going to solve our current financial situation whe we are running $1.5T deficits each year. IF we balanced the budget from today forward and used that $636B/year to pay off the debt it would take 22 years if no one charged us any interest. Does that seem reasonable? If so would you support meeting in the middle and cutting half that ($318B) from current spending and get the other half from closing some tax breaks? Because what our politicians are talking about now (Repubs @ $61B in cuts and Dems at $6B in cust) aren't even in the same ballpark. It's absurd.

absolute nonesense. when the top two percent, wall street banks and corporations were actually paying their fair share

WTF is their fair share? Because unless it's the exact same amount YOU are paying it ain't fair at all.

and were accountable (you know, back in those good old days that the tea party wants to go back to, when the republican party was a moderate party led by moderates such as dwight eisenhower, richard nixon, gerald ford, george h.w. bush et al, when the top tax rate wasn't a paltry 36% and unions were strong at comprising 36% of the american workforce, and not the current 7% of the american workforce), the american middle class was extremely strong and vibrant, and at its peak. they were not the enemy, as they're being made to be now. they were the backbone of the country. they received excellent wages, with really only one income easily providing for an entire family, with not only good pensions and benefits, but could easily afford to send any offspring off to receive a post-secondary education. but now, so much wealth is controlled by the top two percent, with average salaries remaining stagnant since the 1980s while the salaries of ceos etc continue to sky rocket.

PLEASE- Globalization has killed the American middle class. Plain and simple. It wasn't the republicans or the greedy corporations or the Dems. It was Middle class america who killed middle class america. By demanding ever lower prices, and ever more goods and services, copupled with an insatiable demand for instant gratification the American middle class has made itself obsolete. To blame the politicians and corporations who gave the people exactly what they were asking for is just ignorant.

"the abyss of debt" was created by paying for two wars and a senior prescription drug bill on the credit card with china holding the tab, outrageous and irresponsible tax cuts for the top two percent who don't need them, continually funding an international empire (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12824) etc.

No the cavern of debt was created under Bush when he added $5T to the debt in 8 years. The abyss has certainly come under Obama as he has added nearly that same amount in only two short years. We have tripled out debt in the span of a decade.

saz

03-11-2011, 05:15 PM

Or was he just trying to fulfill the campaign promises he ran and was elected on?

there was nothing in his campaign about cutting taxes for corporations, then trying to make up for that lost revenue by declaring war on the middle class and wanting to cut the benefits of public employees, and striping them of their collective bargaining rights.

Lifeline of a state? Teachers...that's rich.

as well as nurses, fire fighters and police. and yes, nurses, police, fire fighters and teachers serve as a lifeline. what's "rich" is claiming to be an "adult", and then spewing "puking left wing nonsense".

Collective bargaining is a privilege holmes.

they're called collective bargaining rights, not collective bargaining privileges. you can spin it anyway you want, but the rest of your country, and the western world sees it otherwise.

Don't get it confused with a "right" like you confuse healthcare as a "right". It's just not true. We'll see how far this Organizing For America driven recall effort goes. I predict nowhere.

right. according to that logic then, having access to law enforcement and fire fighters aren't rights either. everybody has rights to health care, oh but i forgot in the small government universe, everybody should have access to guns (because we know how much of a great public service they provide), but no one should have the right to health care.

Let's see... the last time I posted before today was 1/31. Since that time (5 weeks) seven new threads have been started. Average posts on those seven threads is 3.5. Now take the previous threads in January where I did contribute and the average number of posts is around 43 per thread. Hmmmm...if not legitimacy at least you can say I provide some reason for others to be here.

take a look at the entire board. beastie-free is slow as fuck. get over yourself, dude.

That's my point. When I'm not here you all have the same opinion.

not necessarily. and even if that were true, so what. if you don't like it, go to another message board.

So to sit around and agree with each other all day is meaningless.

that's one perspective.

There is no advancement of the discussion. Obviously everyone agreees or the numbers I posted above would be different.

again, look at the activity of the board overall. maybe i'm wrong, but it seems you only come here to post in the politics section.

No it wasn't but why should they be immune from the cuts we are all experiencing?

they're not. they've already made concessions and that's not the problem. the problem is walker and other governors trying to strip them of their collective bargaining rights.

As Americans they shared in the good time and they need to share in the bad times. Did you get a raise last year? Did you get cost of living increases the last three years of this recession at your job? They did.

and they work their asses off and they're part of the reason why america still has a middle class, they are the ones who take care of us and look out for us, look out for our families and our safety.

How can you sit there with crosshairs blatantly targeting the "top two percent" and not expect them to target you back?

i'm not expecting them not too. they've been waging this war on the american middle class, which probably includes you as well, and it's time for americans to stand up and take their country back from the corporations and the wall street banks who are not only taking it over, but are ruining it in the process.

Class warfare is class warfare. How much more do you think they should pay?

their fair share, the levels from the 1970s and previous to that, ie nixon admin - eisenhower admin. your country is in serious trouble, and you can't restore fiscal health by merely taking it out on the middle and working classes, the working poor and the impoverished.

How much more than you should another American be forced to hand over?

what kind of american? average americans have suffered enough, with one million in foreclosure, or in debt, or working from paycheck to paycheck, or with a completely uncertain future.

How much should the government extort from it's most productive citizens to give to it's least? What's your magic number Saz?

"extort", now that's "rich". regardless, how about they pay their fair share. and speaking of magic, i'm not the one gazing into a proverbial ball and making predictions.

Let's look at the numbers if you had your way;
Coprate tax collected in 2009 (http://http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/article/0,,id=102886,00.html)= $225B There is a nebulus figure but most people seem to think that eliminating ALL of the corprate tax breaks could potentially net another50-60% in revenue. Let's say $135B to be safe.
Oil Company "subsidies" (really tax breaks) are about $4B annually (http://http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/business/04bptax.html).
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan total expenditures (http://http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/business/04bptax.html)- $1.1T Let's just say $110B a year if we pay it off over ten years.

Cost of Bush Tax cuts for the "wealthy"- (http://http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/15/news/economy/bush_tax_cuts_faqs/index.htm)$700B over 10 years or $70B /year average.
Cut the US Military budget ($668B) by 25%. That's another $217B per year.
Eliminate Bush'd prescription plan at about $1T over ten years ir $100B/year

We'll leave the stimulus, Obamacare and auto bailout out of the equation since those were Democrat ideas;)

the majority of the stimulus were tax cuts for the majority of americans, and the stimulus did save and create jobs. but tax cuts and lost revenue are the last things anyone needs right now. oh and by the way, that auto bailout is not only being paid back, but detroit is doing (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/new-cars/auto-news/detroits-mounting-a-comeback-believe-it/article1661849/) well (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/new-cars/auto-news/sales-gains-give-hope-for-detroit-three-auto-makers/article1856842/email/) again (https://secure.globeadvisor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/gam/20110225/RBGMRESULTSKEENANATL).

So Add 'em up in Saz's utopia= $636B per year additional revenue to the US treasury and we'll just ignore all of the jobs and revenue that run overseas when we crank the corporate tax rate on up.

sorry to dampen your rudimentary mathematics, but not only am i not buying it (especially with your snide utopia remark), but claiming that all of the jobs (which have already been relocated overseas anyways, despite sucking up to corporate america and lowering their taxes for decades, as well as doing nothing about them investing their cash in overshore havens) and revenue will run overseas is as laughable and just as out of touch with reality as claiming that tax cuts pay for themselves.

Repubs @ $61B in cuts and Dems at $6B in cust) aren't even in the same ballpark. It's absurd.

and there's nothing in the republican proposals to cut defence, the occupation of afghanistan or iraq, nor to cull the empire, nor the billions in corporate welfare, nor to raise taxes.

PLEASE- Globalization has killed the American middle class. Plain and simple.

i agree, that's certainly part of it. outsourcing jobs, moving america's manufacturing base overseas (despite the low corporate tax rate), depressed and stagnant wages remaining low since the 1980s, while ceos' salaries explode. but then again, canada isn't in the same boat america is despite globalization.

It wasn't the republicans or the greedy corporations or the Dems.

they're also part of the problem.

It was Middle class america who killed middle class america.

keep dreaming. their elected representatives sold them out.

By demanding ever lower prices, and ever more goods and services, copupled with an insatiable demand for instant gratification the American middle class has made itself obsolete. To blame the politicians and corporations who gave the people exactly what they were asking for is just ignorant.

you got it partially right with globalization, that's certainly a big part of it, but when you couple outsourcing jobs and entire manufacturing sectors with depressed and stagnant wages that don't increase (while salaries of those at the top explode), while the majority of america's wealth is controlled by the elite top two percent, coupled with astronomical defence spending and endless, pointless, futile wars overseas paid for on the credit card, coupled with endless tax breaks for those who don't need them, coupled with a privatized health care/insurance system which is arguably the most expensive on the planet, coupled with a multi-billion dollar military empire with hundreds of bases all over the world, coupled with the lack of constant new and diverse industries and manufacturing sectors (it seems all america produces now is debt, with only the financial sector producing and more university/college grads heading to wall street than other more crucial and innovative industries), coupled with a massive decline in a unionized workforce which has fallen from 36% to 7%, america is in big trouble.

No the cavern of debt was created under Bush when he added $5T to the debt in 8 years. The abyss has certainly come under Obama as he has added nearly that same amount in only two short years. We have tripled out debt in the span of a decade.

i agree to an extent about obama, by expanding the occupation in afghanistan, by cutting stupid deals with the republicans to continue bush's tax cuts for the rich, by backing down on raising the corporate tax rate to what it was under clinton, and generally being a pussy overall. but, you do also realize though that obama's first year in office, 2009, was actually bush's last budget.

travesty

03-11-2011, 10:43 PM

as well as nurses, fire fighters and police. and yes, nurses, police, fire fighters and teachers serve as a lifeline.
If fostering a globally sub-standard education in spite of the highest dollar expeditures per student is considered a "lifeline" then I guess I have to agree.:confused:

right. according to that logic then, having access to law enforcement and fire fighters aren't rights either.
Nope. They are SERVICES we pay for with our taxes. If they you believe they are a "right" then you can not also believe that those people should be able to unionize.
That's a conundrum. If Joe Sixpack has a "right" to firefighting services, what happens when his house is ablaze and those dudes are on strike? Wouldn't they be infringing on his "rights" by excercising thier "rights". If collective bargaining is a "right" how come they are not allowed in 26 of the states or the Federal Government. How come the military doesn't have those "rights"? Because it doesn't make sense. Having people who are serving at the taxpayer's expense be able to hold those taxpayers hostage for more money, benefits, pensions, etc is insane.

everybody has rights to health care
That's correct. You have the right to purchase anything you can afford. If you can afford health care, you have the right to purchase it. In America, you can even purchase things you can't afford.

they're not. they've already made concessions and that's not the problem. the problem is walker and other governors trying to strip them of their collective bargaining rights.

I don't see that as a problem at all. Again, we're talking about PUBLIC sector unions only. This bill has nothing to do with the "rights" of private sector unions.

and they work their asses off
Bwahahahaha, have you ever been to your local fire department on an average day? Don't get me wrong I support each and every one of them for what they do, but work thier asses off? If any one of those guys worked half as hard or as many hours as I do running my business we could cut the staff of those departments in half. Teachers.....6-7 hour workdays 9 months a year and all of these folks can retire with a pension after twenty years!! Please bro, give me a break. My mother was a teacher and my brother is a firefighter..I know how hard they "work thier asses off" and I can only dream of having those hours.

and they're part of the reason why america still has a middle class, they are the ones who take care of us and look out for us, look out for our families and our safety.
No I'M the reason America still has a middle class. Small business owners like me who take immense risks to eek out a modest living for myself and provide the same for my employees. My taxes, from my work and my employees work are what pays the taxes that allow the firefighters and teachers and police to provide the services they do. They aren't earning money to help me keep my job but I sure as fuck am earning money to help them keep thiers.

their fair share, the levels from the 1970s and previous to that, ie nixon admin - eisenhower admin.
That will never happen. The global market is far, far different form those times. Thinking that you can slap huge taxes on companies just for the privilege of operating in America won't work any more. Back then there were few alternatives as attractive for business as the USA. That's no longer the case. It simply is not a viable option. Look how many have left already. You want to lose more? Why doesn't Canada raise thier tax rates? Yur are lower than ours.

what kind of american?

Any American. How much more should one American be forced to pay above what his neighbor does?

"extort", now that's "rich". regardless, how about they pay their fair share
Here's that "fair share" bullshit again. It's so ridiculous. Have you ever said that out loud to another person?
According to the facts (http://http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2007/10/top-1-pay-more-.html)... the top 1% earn 21.2% of all of the income in the US yet pay 39.4% of the taxes. They pay more taxes than the bottom 95% combined! On what planet is that not paying thier "fair share"?

the majority of the stimulus were tax cuts for the majority of americans, and the stimulus did save and create jobs.
Debatable

oh and by the way, that auto bailout is not only being paid back, but detroit is doing (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/new-cars/auto-news/detroits-mounting-a-comeback-believe-it/article1661849/) well (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/new-cars/auto-news/sales-gains-give-hope-for-detroit-three-auto-makers/article1856842/email/) again (https://secure.globeadvisor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/gam/20110225/RBGMRESULTSKEENANATL).

Don't believe the hype bro. GM has repaid .7% of it's $49.9B loans and Chrysler has repaid 1.8% of its $15.2B. I wouldn't quite trumpet that as "being paid back" just yet. ANy company will seem like it is doing well in the short term after the government scratches them a $49.9B check. There is no verdict on this one yet, or for some time to come.

but claiming that all of the jobs .......and revenue will run overseas is as laughable and just as out of touch with reality as claiming that tax cuts pay for themselves.
Why? What makes America so attractive today that would convince the average corporate entity to pay more in taxes just to be here instead of say Canada or China?

and there's nothing in the republican proposals to cut defence, the occupation of afghanistan or iraq, nor to cull the empire, nor the billions in corporate welfare, nor to raise taxes.
There's nothing about any of that shit in the Dem proposal either so I'm assuming it ain't going to happenrgardless of who writes the final bill.

but then again, canada isn't in the same boat america is despite globalization.
But at one time it was (http://http://www.businessinsider.com/canada-is-kicking-our-butt-when-it-comes-to-unemployment-2011-2). Funny....how did you guys get out of your crises?
So what did Canadian policy makers do to get themselves out of their debt hole in the early 90's? Did they announce more deficit funded stimulus spending on bullet trains, solar cells and the like? No! Did they take a politically charged and partisan, "my way or the highway" approach to handling their countries fiscal crisis? No. Did they refrain from asking for a shared public sacrifice as they moved toward austerity? No. The Canadian Liberal government took a more fiscally proactive and common sense approach and in a uniquely bipartisan way (funny what you can accomplish when it hits the fan), they focused on deep spending cuts. They cut in areas of social and defense spending including regional development, transportation and industry and they restricted transfer payments to provinces which forced the provincial governments to get on board and become more fiscally responsible. They also bit the bullet and cut the civil service workforce. And finally they had the courage to touch the third entitlement rail of politics and took steps to put the Canada Pension Plan on to a firmer fiscal foundation.
Hmmmmmmm.....seems like it worked for you. Tell me again why it won't work for us? You want us to do everything else like you, why not this one?

coupled with the lack of constant new and diverse industries
Still in the top tenhttp://http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/aug/04/slide-show-1-worlds-10-most-innovative-nations.htmfor innovation, that ain't bad.

(it seems all america produces now is debt, with only the financial sector producing
Ummmm. America still manufactures (http://http://moneywatch.bnet.com/economic-news/blog/macro-view/manufacturing-surprise-the-us-still-leads-in-making-things/2134/) more than any other country on earth.

coupled with a massive decline in a unionized workforce which has fallen from 36% to 7%,
Why is that a problem?

i agree to an extent about obama, by expanding the occupation in afghanistan, by cutting stupid deals with the republicans to continue bush's tax cuts for the rich, by backing down on raising the corporate tax rate to what it was under clinton, and generally being a pussy overall. but, you do also realize though that obama's first year in office, 2009, was actually bush's last budget
Well then he needs to thank GW for the most fiscally responsible year of his administration. (n)(n)

kaiser soze

03-12-2011, 07:21 AM

It's funny how conservatives pretty much say "America Don't Come Cheap" in the form of privatization of services once subsidized by govt programs in the name of profits and devalued worker compensation.

but yet love slicing and dicing the very things that do cost money - you won't get more quality for less. Travesty, can we CUT your pay and expect more and improved work? That's what is happening and you fail to see that fact.

and when it comes to education - who the fuck are the ones making it substandard? MY vote is with conservatives in the form of censorship ACROSS THE BOARD.....well that and budget cuts to help their corporate owners get their tax cuts.

My girlfriend's mother is a hard working teacher and she lives modestly and humbly for her pay which includes the amount of time she puts in OFF the clock. If you have a problem with what's going on - then don't bitch when teachers work to contract and your kid gets less assistance - no more freebies, no more after school programming, no more lunch break help, tutoring, nor supporting education programs for the community. You want greed, you'll get it.

Part of education's downfall is parenting - many people fail their children by NOT following up on what the schools have to offer. It is a BATTLE in some schools to get kids to learn. Do not Blame the teachers.

man - why am I convinced most conservatives are lizards.

Travesty if education is so substandard - then why do we have a large contingent of foreign students here? This is concerning higher education of course - the evil of all evils.

Might I also add - TAXES help pay for infrastructure, it is well known that corporations are a major user and abuser of infrastructure - they should pay their fair share....Or should we continue to let them roll in, rip it down and jet without any consequences? That's the precedent that is being set.

http://dailycaller.com/2010/07/19/why-republicans-kill-school-choice-programs/

http://thestir.cafemom.com/toddler/115324/iowa_republicans_kill_preschool

http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20110311/NEWS01/103110323/Teacher-merit-pay-gets-votes-Florida-Senate

Sir SkratchaLot

03-12-2011, 07:43 AM

Its hypocritical that the people with capital can collectively join together to expand thier power in the form of Corporations, LLCs and the like (and get extraordinary advantages under the law mind you) but when workers collectively join that's somehow unfair.

Meh, it's just fucking class wars. The whole thing. The uber wealthy want to stomp out any chance of their threats organizing to prevent them from continuing to take advantage of the system. These warnings that our society is going to somehow collapse if we don't continue to line their pockets is just bullshit. Our shit already collapsed and we continue to see power grabs by the rich.

You have the top 5% or whathaveyou hoarding all the money and then complaining that they have to pay more taxes? It's the American dream that 5% of the people should be able to hoard all of society's equity? Really? Fuck that. I just hope I live to see the day when some of these rich fucks get rolled on.

Sir SkratchaLot

03-12-2011, 07:54 AM

I'll tell you another thing I'm sick of. Small fucking business owners who set up LLCs to sheild their liability, don't purchase adequate insurance, take adavantage of government incentives, take retarded business risks becuase they are stupid rednecks who worry more about taxes than business planning, and then we end up paying for their lousy failure asses when they put their business into bankruptcy, all the while maintaining their nice homes and driving BMWs. For every one of these guys who actually knows how to run a business there are 9 who run their shit into the ground and don't expect to pay the consequenses. You want to talk about welfare, try looking at all these idiot small business owners taking advantage of the bankruptcy system.

kaiser soze

03-12-2011, 10:31 AM

WI GOP meet with Lobby connected to Walker -

Looks like they're not interested much in developing jobs following their vote but rather sucking up $$$ from their owners. This is a bad move proving they don't give a fuck about developing options for Union work. Take away the free speech of workers and let the lobbyists whisper sweet nothings in their ears.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/wisconsin-gopers-to-huddle-with-corporate-lobbyists-in-dc-after-worker-rights-vote.php

On Thursday, the Public Campaign Action Fund, a nonprofit advocate for campaign finance reform, pointed out that WE Energies, an energy utility based in Milwaukee, has spent more than $300,000 on lobbying with BGR since 2009.

Executives with the company gave more than $10,000 to Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's (R) 2010 campaign. And WE Energies' ties to the Republican state Senate caucus run even deeper than that: Heather Leibham, who has worked for the company in state regulatory advocacy, is the wife of state Sen. Joe Liebham (R), who cast his vote against collective bargaining rights this week along with 17 of his Republican colleagues.

and from one of the comments following the story

" These are the values inspiring those brave workers in Poland … They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.” —RONALD REAGAN, Labor Day Address at Liberty State Park, 1980

Schmeltz

03-12-2011, 12:03 PM

I won't even get into how, according to his own logic, travesty has no right to invoke Canadian society or even mention it in his posts at all. But I will point out that, so far as I can tell from a broken link, the bipartisan austerity measures undertaken by the Liberal government (for whom travesty would never have voted) in Canada in the early 90s are in no way comparable to Scott Walker's politically partisan, unilateral rollback of collective bargaining. The Wisconsin public sector unions had already agreed to austerity measures, including the increased costs of benefits. They were willing to compromise. Walker's bill took the issue well beyond austerity in attempting to directly cripple unionized workers' ability to leverage their positions in future relations with their employers. This is not a rational attempt to shrink bloated bureaucracy or achieve compromise between social and economic actors, it is an all-out ideological assault on the principles of organized labour, probably designed to weaken the support base of the Democratic Party in Wisconsin. Whatever you think of unions, Walker's move is underhanded, divisive, irrational, and purely politically motivated. He's a tool through and through, as the Buffalo Beast demonstrated very nicely.

I might also point out that the distinction between "taxpayers" and public employees - who, since they also pay taxes, are every bit as much "taxpayers" as anyone else - is completely disingenuous and artifical. Are you only a real taxpayer if you conform to certain conservative principles, like giving up your hard-earned rights to collective representation so the wealthy can continue frolicking in their cash like pigs in shit? It would seem so.

Dorothy Wood

03-12-2011, 03:04 PM

If fostering a globally sub-standard education in spite of the highest dollar expeditures per student is considered a "lifeline" then I guess I have to agree.:confused:

Are those expenditures being compared with respect to the cost of materials? or teacher pay? I agree that the american public education system is broken. I agree that teacher unions are bloated and allow ineffective teachers to gain tenure, and ensure stagnation. But I don't agree that it is the fault of the teachers, good or bad. It's up to the administration of a school, a district, a state, to hire good people from the start. I'm not sure exactly how collective bargaining works with teachers, but if it's bargaining, it's not the fault of the unions if they happen to be more clever than the officials they are bargaining with. That's the key to the New American Dream right, not working hard, but being more clever?

I have a teaching degree, I've been a student teacher and a substitute teacher in a ruralish mid-sized city in southern ohio, a student teacher at a inner city public school in cincinnati, a substitute teacher in chicago public schools, a tutor for rich kids, and an art teacher at a non-profit. I've witnessed widespread incompetence at all of these levels.

Teachers are not saints, but rather than vilify them, we should all be working to figure out how to improve the system altogether so being a teacher is about helping humans develop life skills to become productive members of society, not counting down the minutes to recess/summer break/winter break/spring break/early retirement. The teachers didn't implement that schedule, and if you'd pay attention, many schools around the country are trying to move to a year-round school term, with extended days. Public school was set up to create obedient little factory workers, that model doesn't work anymore.

Education is important, and should be administered by people who aren't just hired babysitters who know how to print out worksheets. But that doesn't mean that the whole institution of teaching should be mocked and put down and sidelined as being unimportant. We need to figure out why so many people think teachers are worthless and change the system.

That said, I don't think that's what Walker's aim is. Walker's aim is political power and fame. If he keeps the bargaining rights, then he has the power to bargain, and put in place goals and ideals for the schools to meet in order to be compensated. Instead, what he's doing is basically saying, "fuck 'em". Because if he had to bargain, he'd have to think.

In America, you can even purchase things you can't afford.

This is the main issue behind most financial problems. You can hold people responsible for spending beyond their means, but you have to also hold our government and corporations responsible because they have come at the American public from every angle screaming CONSUME! SPEND! CONSUME! SPEND! BORROW BORROW BORROW SPEND! GET A NEW CAR! BUY A BIGGER HOUSE! YOU NEED NEW SHOES! SHOP TIL YOU DROP! Consumerism doesn't benefit society, it doesn't develop processes that will help us create a better more peaceful world...it just generates profits for those who had enough money in the first place to buy the advertising space to trick everyone into giving them even more money.

No I'M the reason America still has a middle class. Small business owners like me who take immense risks to eek out a modest living for myself and provide the same for my employees. My taxes, from my work and my employees work are what pays the taxes that allow the firefighters and teachers and police to provide the services they do. They aren't earning money to help me keep my job but I sure as fuck am earning money to help them keep thiers.

Your logic is flawed, and your ego is inflated. You understand that firefighters save lives? and when they're not doing that, they prevent buildings from burning down so they don't spread and burn a whole town down? And in that, they are directly benefiting you and your family and employees and customers? Your taxes "allow" for firefighters and teachers and police to provide "services"? Stop me now, if your whole town or city has never had a fire and all the kids are home-schooled...because public education and public safety workers allow YOU to keep your job, or even have a job in the first place by keeping your God damned town from having burned down 100 or 50 or 15 years ago. Did you go to public school? did any of your employees? Would you still have competent employees and enough customers or clients or whatever if basic education wasn't made available to everyone? Think about the history of our country, the future of our country, not just related to you and your bubble. Because it sounds to me that you'd ultimately love to be a corporate fat cat. You're a boss, but you're just a small-business owner, so you can still argue from the "average joe" perspective...making you feel like you have the upper hand. And why do you want the upper hand? because you feel powerless too, and you're blaming everyone but yourself.

Its hypocritical that the people with capital can collectively join together to expand thier power in the form of Corporations, LLCs and the like (and get extraordinary advantages under the law mind you) but when workers collectively join that's somehow unfair.

Meh, it's just fucking class wars. The whole thing. The uber wealthy want to stomp out any chance of their threats organizing to prevent them from continuing to take advantage of the system. These warnings that our society is going to somehow collapse if we don't continue to line their pockets is just bullshit. Our shit already collapsed and we continue to see power grabs by the rich.

You have the top 5% or whathaveyou hoarding all the money and then complaining that they have to pay more taxes? It's the American dream that 5% of the people should be able to hoard all of society's equity? Really? Fuck that. I just hope I live to see the day when some of these rich fucks get rolled on.

quoted for truth

I'll tell you another thing I'm sick of. Small fucking business owners who set up LLCs to sheild their liability, don't purchase adequate insurance, take adavantage of government incentives, take retarded business risks becuase they are stupid rednecks who worry more about taxes than business planning, and then we end up paying for their lousy failure asses when they put their business into bankruptcy, all the while maintaining their nice homes and driving BMWs. For every one of these guys who actually knows how to run a business there are 9 who run their shit into the ground and don't expect to pay the consequenses. You want to talk about welfare, try looking at all these idiot small business owners taking advantage of the bankruptcy system.

right on!

travesty

03-12-2011, 09:01 PM

but yet love slicing and dicing the very things that do cost money - you won't get more quality for less. and you also don't get more quality simply by spending more either.

Travesty, can we CUT your pay and expect more and improved work? That's what is happening and you fail to see that fact.
Isn't that exactly what you want to do to all of these "fat cat" CEO's?? Hmmm? You see, if you're over paid to begin with, then yes I would assume that you should be able to get the same production even with a pay cut. I know you'll agree with me on this.

and when it comes to education - who the fuck are the ones making it substandard? MY vote is with conservatives in the form of censorship ACROSS THE BOARD.....well that and budget cuts to help their corporate owners get their tax cuts.
That's just silly.

why am I convinced most conservatives are lizards.
Because when you're a snake you think anything with legs are lizards.

Skratch- Meh, it's just fucking class wars. The whole thing. The uber wealthy want to stomp out any chance of their threats organizing to prevent them from continuing to take advantage of the system. These warnings that our society is going to somehow collapse if we don't continue to line their pockets is just bullshit. Our shit already collapsed and we continue to see power grabs by the rich.
Dude how are public sector unions athreat to the rich any more than they are a threat to an ordinary American? That makes no sense. Are the rich worried that the teachers at schools thier children don't attend are making too much? I doubt it.

Skratch- I'll tell you another thing I'm sick of. Small fucking business owners who set up LLCs to sheild their liability, don't purchase adequate insurance, take adavantage of government incentives, take retarded business risks becuase they are stupid rednecks who worry more about taxes than business planning, and then we end up paying for their lousy failure asses when they put their business into bankruptcy, all the while maintaining their nice homes and driving BMWs. For every one of these guys who actually knows how to run a business there are 9 who run their shit into the ground and don't expect to pay the consequenses. You want to talk about welfare, try looking at all these idiot small business owners taking advantage of the bankruptcy system.
I agree. It's right up there with people buying houses they can't afford, getting foreclosed on and then "don't expect to pay the consequenses. You want to talk about welfare, try looking at all these idiot home owners taking advantage of the foreclosure system". So fix the bankruptcy system. I have no problem with that. Bring back debtors prison for all I care. In fact that would be great we could lock up all these deadbeat bums in the bottom 50% who can't seem to pay "thier fair share" of taxes! As Ex-Cons can't vote it would shrink the Democrat voting base away to nothing.

Dorothy- Teachers are not saints, but rather than vilify them, we should all be working to figure out how to improve the system altogether so being a teacher is about helping humans develop life skills to become productive members of society, not counting down the minutes to recess/summer break/winter break/spring break/early retirement. The teachers didn't implement that schedule, and if you'd pay attention, many schools around the country are trying to move to a year-round school term, with extended days. Public school was set up to create obedient little factory workers, that model doesn't work anymore.
Truth-I am not vilifying them I'm just not putting them on some high pedestal. Like I said, my mother was a teacher (she IS a saint :)) and was in the union. You would all change your tunes if you could spend one hour with her discussing the finer point of how the teachers unions have simply thrown the interests of your children to the wayside (really they never had any concern for it from the start) for $$ and political power.

Your logic is flawed, and your ego is inflated. You understand that firefighters save lives? and when they're not doing that, they prevent buildings from burning down so they don't spread and burn a whole town down? And in that, they are directly benefiting you and your family and employees and customers? Your taxes "allow" for firefighters and teachers and police to provide "services"? Stop me now, if your whole town or city has never had a fire and all the kids are home-schooled...because public education and public safety workers allow YOU to keep your job, or even have a job in the first place by keeping your God damned town from having burned down 100 or 50 or 15 years ago. Did you go to public school? did any of your employees? Would you still have competent employees and enough customers or clients or whatever if basic education wasn't made available to everyone? Think about the history of our country, the future of our country, not just related to you and your bubble. Because it sounds to me that you'd ultimately love to be a corporate fat cat. You're a boss, but you're just a small-business owner, so you can still argue from the "average joe" perspective...making you feel like you have the upper hand. And why do you want the upper hand? because you feel powerless too, and you're blaming everyone but yourself.

I absolutely understand and respect every single firefighter and policeman, postal worker, city administrator etc, etc. I have never said otherwise. I know that without them we would have to hire someone else to do thier job :D like many towns and cities are now doing with great success. 100 or 50 years ago most fire brigades were all volunteer so that doesn't really compute but I agree 100% about having an educated workforce. My point is and has always been that yes we need great teachers, yes we need to support them and pay them well in order to get a good product (smart kids) out of the system but the union model does not encourage, reward or even consider a quality output (smart kids) so why support it?

I do not plan on ever being a corporate "fat cat" but I do want to make a reasonable living for myself and others. Two of my employees make more than me, a LOT more. I am the last one to get paid each week and sometimes there isn't enough for me to draw a check at all. However, nothing makes me feel more content, scared shitless, human, anxious, depressed and proud all at the same time than knowing that five other families are relying on the decisions and risks I take everyday. That's not ego and I since I accept full personal responsibility for everything I do and everything that happens in my life I don't blame others for my station in life. Because of that I certainly don't feel powerless. You ought to try it sometime.

Dorothy Wood

03-13-2011, 04:58 PM

then why are you so angry-seeming at working class people?

you should be angry at idiots at every socioeconomic level!
I guess I just don't think government employees are to blame or that privatizing public service is the way to go. I think we need more skilled and intelligent people in positions of hiring and negotiating. unfortunately, elected officials aren't always the brightest bulbs. but...neither are private sector bosses, so I don't know what the answer is. a friend of mine is endlessly promoted and given bonuses by a bankrupt company, she is also not...hmm, uh, well, she's not very smart (though quite organized). how does this happen? the people in charge making 5 times her inflated salary are dumb as rocks.

now I'm just rambling. I guess I'm just mad at the world for allowing idiots to succeed.

travesty

03-13-2011, 08:44 PM

I guess I'm just mad at the world for allowing idiots to succeed.

There is no shortage of that going on. That's for sure.

D_Raay

03-14-2011, 12:54 AM

And they got away with it... Using a loophole they voted on this measure WITHOUT the democrats presence.

This is not any sort of democracy(which these tea party and republican fucks are so proud of) I've ever heard of.

I am getting sick and tired of one side of america acting like they are the voice for all of us.

2012 will be a rough year for the newly annointed shill asswads that tricked people into thinking they were somehow a viable option.

Sir SkratchaLot

03-14-2011, 06:10 AM

I know you'd like to believe this is really about government employee unions but its unions in general that continue to be under attack. The only time you're going to hear many of these ultra-rich nut huggers say "I've got no problem with non-government unions" is when the next sentence out of their mouth is "as long as we can stomp out govenrment unions today". Fast forward 6 months and the non-government unions will continue to be attacked. You know it, I know it.

Also, your experience with teachers unions is completely anecdotal and not representative of what I've seen. As with anything, you're going to have a spectrum depending on where you live and using anecdotal evidence as an argument for sweeping change is foolish.

Odd how the lower middle class wants to blame the poor for all of their problems when it's the top 5% that runs the show. It's almost like they've been fed a line. I definately don't need to look hard to find a plumber or a HVAC installer who can barely make ends meet yet will argue until his face is blue to support the interests of the top 5%.

Lastly, and case in point, the bankruptcy system was just recently overhauled, and can you guess what happened? Your average Joe/Jane doesn't get to discharge his/her debt while similarly situated businesses continue to get full discharges. Why, the credit card lobby is a bitch.

So, while all of this subterfuge is going on the power grab is made and big business get's the benefit.

saz

03-15-2011, 03:47 PM

If fostering a globally sub-standard education in spite of the highest dollar expeditures per student is considered a "lifeline" then I guess I have to agree.:confused:

no, and i think you know exactly what i mean, so i'll repeat it, again. the people who provide our public services, ie police, fire fighters, nurses, teachers et al provide an essential service, or lifeline for our societies. some of these are essential services, while some of them are not.

Nope. They are SERVICES we pay for with our taxes. If they you believe they are a "right" then you can not also believe that those people should be able to unionize.

just because, according to the simplistic conservative talking point that just because it's not in your constitution it doesn't mean it's a right, is complete and utter bullshit.

That's a conundrum. If Joe Sixpack has a "right" to firefighting services, what happens when his house is ablaze and those dudes are on strike?

fire fighters provide a mandatory or essential service. nice try.

If collective bargaining is a "right" how come they are not allowed in 26 of the states or the Federal Government.

because america is filled to the brim with knuckle-dragging neanderthal pro-corporate meatheads? what a disgrace that it's apparently not applicable in twenty-six states.

How come the military doesn't have those "rights"? Because it doesn't make sense. Having people who are serving at the taxpayer's expense be able to hold those taxpayers hostage for more money, benefits, pensions, etc is insane.

again, nice try. you're jumping from collective bargaining to the right to strike. you can't compare the utmost of essential services, ie national security and defence, with services which aren't deemed essential and have the right to strike.

That's correct. You have the right to purchase anything you can afford. If you can afford health care, you have the right to purchase it. In America, you can even purchase things you can't afford.

so if you can't afford health insurance, fuck you then, right? just go away and die?

Bwahahahaha, have you ever been to your local fire department on an average day? Don't get me wrong I support each and every one of them for what they do, but work thier asses off? If any one of those guys worked half as hard or as many hours as I do running my business we could cut the staff of those departments in half. Teachers.....6-7 hour workdays 9 months a year and all of these folks can retire with a pension after twenty years!! Please bro, give me a break. My mother was a teacher and my brother is a firefighter..I know how hard they "work thier asses off" and I can only dream of having those hours.

bwahahahaha. oh yeah, dude, when they're putting their own lives on the line to save the lives of others, they're like, totally, just slacking and are nothing more than a bunch of freeloaders. if only they worked as hard as you do. now that's "rich". get the fuck over yourself, seriously.

No I'M the reason America still has a middle class. Small business owners like me who take immense risks to eek out a modest living for myself and provide the same for my employees. My taxes, from my work and my employees work are what pays the taxes that allow the firefighters and teachers and police to provide the services they do. They aren't earning money to help me keep my job but I sure as fuck am earning money to help them keep thiers.

that's "rich".

That will never happen. The global market is far, far different form those times. Thinking that you can slap huge taxes on companies just for the privilege of operating in America won't work any more.

they're not "huge taxes", but restoring the rates to where they once were, so they're paying their fair share.

Back then there were few alternatives as attractive for business as the USA. That's no longer the case. It simply is not a viable option.

keep telling yourself that as revenue continues to decrease and debt continues to increase.

Look how many have left already. You want to lose more? Why doesn't Canada raise thier tax rates? Yur are lower than ours.

that's true. because we have a half-assed, pathetic conservative government that has the support of approximately 35% of the electorate, while the majority of the electorate opposes them.

Here's that "fair share" bullshit again. It's so ridiculous. Have you ever said that out loud to another person?
According to the facts (http://http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2007/10/top-1-pay-more-.html)... the top 1% earn 21.2% of all of the income in the US yet pay 39.4% of the taxes. They pay more taxes than the bottom 95% combined! On what planet is that not paying thier "fair share"?

bullshit. they don't pay jack shit and you know it, especially considering the top tax rate is 36%.

I wouldn't quite trumpet that as "being paid back" just yet.

i didn't say that.

ANy company will seem like it is doing well in the short term after the government scratches them a $49.9B check. There is no verdict on this one yet, or for some time to come.

whatever.

Why? What makes America so attractive today that would convince the average corporate entity to pay more in taxes just to be here instead of say Canada or China?

oh yeah, you're so right. in fact, the corporate tax rate should be dropped to 0%, and all labour standards should be thrown out the window.

But at one time it was (http://http://www.businessinsider.com/canada-is-kicking-our-butt-when-it-comes-to-unemployment-2011-2). Funny....how did you guys get out of your crises?

Hmmmmmmm.....seems like it worked for you. Tell me again why it won't work for us? You want us to do everything else like you, why not this one?

i see schmeltz got this one.

Ummmm. America still manufactures (http://http://moneywatch.bnet.com/economic-news/blog/macro-view/manufacturing-surprise-the-us-still-leads-in-making-things/2134/) more than any other country on earth.

Why is that a problem?

i didn't say it was, however china may surpass your asses.

Well then he needs to thank GW for the most fiscally responsible year of his administration. (n)(n)

oh and of course obama placed the wars on the books.

travesty

03-15-2011, 08:47 PM

fire fighters provide a mandatory or essential service. nice try.
Aren't all government services supposed to be "mandatory"? If not, why the fuck are we paying for them?

because america is filled to the brim with knuckle-dragging neanderthal pro-corporate meatheads? what a disgrace that it's apparently not applicable in twenty-six states.
And that's a reasonable answer.

so if you can't afford health insurance, fuck you then, right? just go away and die?
No, you can suck off the tit of the productive citizens.

bwahahahaha. oh yeah, dude, when they're putting their own lives on the line to save the lives of others, they're like, totally, just slacking and are nothing more than a bunch of freeloaders. if only they worked as hard as you do. now that's "rich". get the fuck over yourself, seriously.
Putting your life on the line for others does not inherently mean that you "work your ass off". That's all I'm saying.

they're not "huge taxes", but restoring the rates to where they once were, so they're paying their fair share.
Just what do you see the real effects of that being? What do you really think is going to happen if we decide to raise the corporate tax rate back to 52%?? Honestly, do you think more good, or more bad to th middle class would come of that?

that's true. because we have a half-assed, pathetic conservative government that has the support of approximately 35% of the electorate, while the majority of the electorate opposes them.
Sucks doesn't it? We have a half assed pathetic democrat run government that has the support of approximately 35% of the electorate.

bullshit. they don't pay jack shit and you know it, especially considering the top tax rate is 36%.
Ummm the numbers say that they pay about 40% of all income taxes. That's a long way from jack shit. Now if you want to talk about the people who really pay Jack Shit let's discuss the bottom 50% of the population who pay NO income taxes. WHen are they gonna start paying "thier fair share"?

i didn't say that.
No? you said
oh and by the way, that auto bailout is not only being paid back, but detroit is doing well again.
What am I missing?

oh yeah, you're so right. in fact, the corporate tax rate should be dropped to 0%, and all labour standards should be thrown out the window.
Get a grip

i didn't say it was, however china may surpass your asses.
Very soon as a matter of fact, but it will be a long time before it's true to say that America doesn't make anything anymore

oh and of course obama placed the wars on the books.
Every year he decides to continue fighting them is a year he puts the war on the books.

Schmeltz

03-16-2011, 12:18 AM

No, you can suck off the tit of the productive citizens.

So it's only the "productive citizens" who can afford, and by extension, deserve access to health care? Anybody who finds themself in a position where they are unable to afford health care is not a "productive citizen" but a leech riding on the back of the "productive citizens"?

Why not just come out with it and put "useless mouths" right in there? What century are you living in? Do you realize how disgusting talk like this is?

Putting your life on the line for others does not inherently mean that you "work your ass off". That's all I'm saying.

Putting your life on the line for others is a sacrifice on a completely different qualitative level from putting forty (or more) weekly hours into a job, whatever it happens to be. I seem to recall you own or manage a business that works on boats and yachts? I'm sure you work very hard at it, but if there were no more lazy slack-ass firefighters in the world shit would go downhill real quick, while if there were no more selfless devoted people building pleasure watercraft in the world, nothing much would change at all. Sorry, but that's how it is. Public workers perform services vastly more essential to the everyday maintenance of society than private businesspeople like you. If my apartment was on fire, I wouldn't be standing there wishing we'd given the yachting industry more tax breaks.

Running a business doesn't make you a hero. Putting your life on the line for others does. Put the Ayn Rand down and get over yourself.

Very soon as a matter of fact, but it will be a long time before it's true to say that America doesn't make anything anymore

Which is too bad. A lot of people will be killed by all those guns and missiles in that interim.

saz

03-16-2011, 07:43 AM

No, you can suck off the tit of the productive citizens.

oh right, of course. because only people who can afford private health insurance are the productive ones, nevermind the working poor and those working more than one job yet are still around or below the poverty line. :rolleyes:

Putting your life on the line for others does not inherently mean that you "work your ass off". That's all I'm saying.

yes, because they don't work as hard as you do.

Just what do you see the real effects of that being? What do you really think is going to happen if we decide to raise the corporate tax rate back to 52%?? Honestly, do you think more good, or more bad to th middle class would come of that?

uh, how about an increase in government revenue for one, which won't come about through tax cuts.

Ummm the numbers say that they pay about 40% of all income taxes. That's a long way from jack shit. Now if you want to talk about the people who really pay Jack Shit let's discuss the bottom 50% of the population who pay NO income taxes. WHen are they gonna start paying "thier fair share"?

spare me, please, because it's really the bottom 50% who hide their cash in offshore bank accounts, while continuing to bankroll wall street interests.

No? you said

What am I missing?

you took my comments out of context. yes, i said they are being paid back, not completely paid back.

travesty

03-16-2011, 12:39 PM

uh, how about an increase in government revenue for one, which won't come about through tax cuts.
But that is not a sure thing just because you raise the tax rates. I don't believe the Laffer curve is real science but it did present what happened when Reagan cut taxes rather well. That being that tax revenues went up when tax rates went down. Why? Because the economy grew. Actual federal tax revenue as a percentage of GDP has changed very little in about 60 years regardless of the corporate or individual tax rates. As Kurt Brouwer (http://http://blogs.marketwatch.com/fundmastery/2010/07/02/does-hiking-tax-rates-raise-more-revenue/) so elequently put it i n this brilliant article that shows the real relationship of Taxes and economic growth; " Our political leaders often misunderstand the long-term consequences of tax law changes and they advocate policies that bear little or no relationship to economic reality." The way to increase tax revenues is to increase the economy and GDP, period. Fiddle fucking around with the tax codes just stiffles production due to uncertainty, foments class warfare and unrest in the populus and serves only to provide politicians with banal talking points during re-elections, nothing more. Quit believing the hype. So if the actual tax rates have little effect on government revenue as a percentage of GDP you have to consider what effect movement of those rates will have on GDP as a whole. SO I ask again, do you think rasing tax rates will increase or decrease GDP?
If you still answered that tax increases will be good for GDP, I present you with the facts to the contrary (http://http://jim.com/econ_growth/index.html)
Frankly I don't know that taxes shouldn't be increased. Especially if as a nation we are going to continue to demand the entitlements that we do now. However, my advice is to get the economy back on track, get a few years of growth under out belts and get everyone making money again, then raise the taxes and make them permanent, then balance the budget accordingly.

you took my comments out of context. yes, i said they are being paid back, not completely paid back.
I don't think I did. I meant "being paid back" as in actively, over the long term. Not "being paid back" like they are scratching a $49B check as we speeak. I think that's what you meant as well. I just don't think that paying back less than 2% over the course of almost two years could be considered actively paying anything back. Like I said, the verdict is out on this one still. I hope to hell you are right, but I can't confirm that at this point.

Schmeltz

03-16-2011, 04:06 PM

tax revenues went up when tax rates went down. Why? Because the economy grew... The way to increase tax revenues is to increase the economy and GDP, period.

It's a good theory from a good (though imperfect) source, but it only works in real life if the wealthy actually pass on the benefits of a reduced tax rate to the rest of us by using the extra capital to hire more people, increase productivity, invest in homegrown innovation and initiatives, etc. If they instead sink all the spare capital into offshore tax havens, padding their own salaries, or investing in cheaper labour and production overseas, cutting tax rates for the wealthy doesn't achieve anything except growing the economies and GDPs of other countries. Yet you seem to strenuously endorse all these practices for the sake of getting back at the lazy uppity no-good unions - the people who do the actual work of production.

Fiddle fucking around with the tax codes just stiffles production due to uncertainty, foments class warfare and unrest in the populus and serves only to provide politicians with banal talking points during re-elections, nothing more.

You could say much the same thing about deregulating financial markets and allowing Wall Street to take everyone else for all they're worth, except for the last point since it doesn't seem to have garnered much attention from American politicians. Probably since they seem to mostly come from the same class of uber-rich swindlers who stand to lose the most if any sense is applied to the situation.

Frankly I don't know that taxes shouldn't be increased... However, my advice is to get the economy back on track, get a few years of growth under out belts and get everyone making money again, then raise the taxes and make them permanent, then balance the budget accordingly.

Sounds like good advice to me, although I wonder if a short-term tax increase on the upper bracket of earners to immediately boost government revenues, followed by a gradual scaling back of tax rates once the scope of the deficit has been narrowed, wouldn't make just as much sense. I seriously doubt it would cause the rich any real pain, given the unimaginable levels to which their wealth has soared in recent years.