View Full Version : Think the padster is still in jail?
like2_drink
08-07-2011, 07:27 PM
After the England riots that is..Why do u think he started that shit anyways
Not that I have to stick up for my mates (especially Paddy) - but if some of you dumb cunts are going to insult him then at least try something a bit more creative than a tenuous link to a riot inaugurated from the killing of a father of four.
Fuck man.
like2_drink
08-08-2011, 01:04 PM
Not that I have to stick up for my mates (especially Paddy) - but if some of you dumb cunts are going to insult him then at least try something a bit more creative than a tenuous link to a riot inaugurated from the killing of a father of four.
Fuck man.
Well, I don't feel bad about cracking a joke, but I do feel for Duggan's faimly; I didn't know the origins of the riots, but now that I do, I think a response of "Fuck the police" would've been more appropriate then to think you were needed to 'stick up' for someone on the internet; it's the INTERNET afterall. Again tho, thoughts are w Duggan's fam. and I hope noone else gets seriously hurt in the riots.
Lex Diamonds
08-08-2011, 01:14 PM
Thanks for having my back camo. A lot of people don't realise how hard it is being a career criminal in a world of hardworking law-abiders, police and social workers.
It just feels good to know someone understands (and to get a few fresh pairs of kicks).
btw, an armed father of four.
I cannot tell you how much I don't want to be burned to death in Croydon tonight.
venusvenus123
08-08-2011, 03:02 PM
I cannot tell you how much I don't want to be burned to death in Croydon tonight.
Take it easy Teh, it's well scary out there!
Well, I don't feel bad about cracking a joke, but I do feel for Duggan's faimly; I didn't know the origins of the riots, but now that I do, I think a response of "Fuck the police" would've been more appropriate then to think you were needed to 'stick up' for someone on the internet; it's the INTERNET afterall. Again tho, thoughts are w Duggan's fam. and I hope noone else gets seriously hurt in the riots.
lol them riots, whats that all aboot eh, lets go smash all the windows in vancouver over a fucking hockey game.
Take it easy Teh, it's well scary out there!
Home now, but it's a bit mental out there!
btw, an armed father of four.
Well you gotta be with coppers like that roaming the streets :rolleyes:
like2_drink
08-08-2011, 07:05 PM
lol them riots, whats that all aboot eh, lets go smash all the windows in vancouver over a fucking hockey game.
Exactly, the last riot I saw on TV was over hockey, it was worth mocking - I figured this was somethin similar, oops..
TurdBerglar
08-08-2011, 07:34 PM
so they way i understand it is that some dirtbag got shot and killed by the police and people are having a fit about it so they start peacefuly demonstrating and it turns into rioting?
the fuck?
some dirtbag got shot! get over it!
btw, an armed father of four.
so they way i understand it is that some dirtbag got shot and killed by the police and people are having a fit about it so they start peacefuly demonstrating and it turns into rioting?
the fuck?
some dirtbag got shot! get over it!
Doubts emerge over Duggan shooting as London burns
Initial ballistics tests suggest bullet lodged in officer's radio during incident in Tottenham was police issue
Sandra Laville, Paul Lewis, Vikram Dodd and Caroline Davies
The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns), Monday 8 August 2011
Doubts have emerged over whether Mark Duggan, whose death at the hands of police sparked the weekend's Tottenham riots, was killed during an exchange of fire.
The Guardian understands that initial ballistics tests on a bullet, found lodged in a police radio worn by an officer during Thursday's incident, suggested it was police issue – and therefore had not been fired by Duggan.
On Saturday night 26 police officers were injured, eight requiring hospital treatment, in clashes with around 300 rioters in Tottenham that saw buildings and vehicles torched, shops looted and residents forced to flee their homes.
Police have arrested 55 people as a major investigation began into the escalation of violence, which followed a peaceful demonstration to demand "justice" for Duggan, 29, a father of four shot dead on Thursday evening after being stopped in a taxi near Tottenham Hale. The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) has launched an inquiry into the shooting.
Initial reports from the IPCC were that during an apparent exchange of fire police officers from C019 fired two shots and Duggan died at the scene. The suggestion was that officers could have come under fire from a minicab carrying Duggan. Much of this assumption came from the fact that a bullet had lodged in a police radio worn by an officer at the scene – raising speculation he might have been fired at from the vehicle. A non-police issue handgun was also recovered at the scene where Duggan was shot dead in Ferry Road.
The latest developments come as one community organiser suggested the handgun recovered was found in a sock and therefore not ready for use. It is likely to fuel anger on the streets of Tottenham and elsewhere in London if it provides evidence that officers were not under attack at the time they opened fire on Duggan.
.
TurdBerglar
08-09-2011, 10:03 AM
well wasn't this guy a known drug dealer or just an all around scumbag? i don't really know much about this story but if a scumbag carrying a gun is shot dead.... GOOD.
Whilst I am a generally left-wing kind of guy in many ways getting all weepy about this and laying 100% of the blame at the police is pathetic, which, whilst you may not be trying to, Saz, is what it looks like.
All we have are "reports" and "suggestions".
What we do know is this guy was a gang-member who was still carrying a gun at the time of his death. Yes, the police may have fucked up big time and people should never die at the hands of the authorities, but carrying a gun in the UK is inexcusable as we luckily don't have the same "rights" as the United States.
To describe Mark Duggan as simply a father of four in a bid to win sympathy is misleading. If a man is carrying a gun he should be prepared to be shot as there is no other reason for carrying a gun other than for shooting or intimidating people.
Meanwhile, the rest of these riots have nothing to do with Mark Duggan and are simply a very small minority of ill-informed and opportunistic thugs and thieves. There is nothing noble or worthy about these riots and they are not a protest, just a bunch of dick heads.
TurdBerglar
08-09-2011, 10:20 AM
probably the same type of people this dugan guy is and should all end up the same as him.
yeah, who needs balistic tests, scientific procedure and investigative practices.
who gives a flying fuck if he was a criminal or wasn't, because after all there such things as the rule of law and due process. the role of law enforcement isn't to act as some sort of summary execution squad.
but according to the neanderthal knuckle dragging mouth breathing meathead logic here, he is duh blacky criminul and so he is duh scum dat needs tuh be takin' care of.
So, perhaps we are both paraphrasing each other to try and bolster our own arguments, but you're now being offensive. As I thought I fully explained, the actions of the police in killing someone may well be fully unjustified - though once the ballistic tests and independent inquiries have been completed may prove they were justified.
Considering the police don't carry guns the armed squad were purposely called out to aprehend Mark Duggan because he was carrying a gun. To tar the police with the presumption of guilt is as bad as saying this guy deserved to die.
Also, I'm not sure why you had to bring race into this.
TurdBerglar
08-09-2011, 11:04 AM
i didn't even assume he was black. a scumbag is a scumbag regardless of race. neanderthals should be treated as so. why should career scumbags be given a fair shot. everyone is better off with this guy gone including his kids.
this is like what's going on in my city. just not as extreme. this guy was beat to shit by police. he was well known common criminal who scuffled with police many times. he was resisting arrest and trying to physically fight back and may have tried to reach for an officers gun so they beat the shit out of him. now he's suing and people are defending him. it's become a racial thing since he's black and the cops are white. since then he's been arrested a few more times for drug dealing and petty crimes... and people are still defending him.
and the right legal process doesn't do shit other than let people get away with minor consequences far too often.
live in a city that's being over run by common scumbags fucking shit up for everyone else. they need to be put down.
So, perhaps we are both paraphrasing each other to try and bolster our own arguments, but you're now being offensive. As I thought I fully explained, the actions of the police in killing someone may well be fully unjustified - though once the ballistic tests and independent inquiries have been completed may prove they were justified.
Considering the police don't carry guns the armed squad were purposely called out to aprehend Mark Duggan because he was carrying a gun. To tar the police with the presumption of guilt is as bad as saying this guy deserved to die.
Also, I'm not sure why you had to bring race into this.
so i'm the one being offensive, while someone else is calling for systematic executions of anyone presumed guilty? as for the initial balistic test, so far it seems rather unjustified. and i'm not tarring the police. what i've been trying to point out to the reactionary sentiment here is that there appears to be more than meets the eye.
as for the police and race, the police or rather the law enforcement establishment have been doing a pretty good job over there of tarring themselves over the last several decades, ie consorting with organized crime, taking bribes, poor crowd and riot control, mysterious and suspicious deaths et al.
i didn't even assume he was black. a scumbag is a scumbag regardless of race. neanderthals should be treated as so. why should career scumbags be given a fair shot. everyone is better off with this guy gone including his kids.
because in western democratic societies, we live under the rule of law and due process. what you're describing is despotism.
this is like what's going on in my city. just not as extreme. this guy was beat to shit by police. he was well known common criminal who scuffled with police many times. he was resisting arrest and trying to physically fight back and may have tried to reach for an officers gun so they beat the shit out of him. now he's suing and people are defending him. it's become a racial thing since he's black and the cops are white. since then he's been arrested a few more times for drug dealing and petty crimes... and people are still defending him.
of course people are going to defend him, just look at the history of police abuse of minorities. regardless, if this guy is a violent offender, and if the prosecutor or d.a. is competent, then he will be rightfully sentenced.
and the right legal process doesn't do shit other than let people get away with minor consequences far too often.
live in a city that's being over run by common scumbags fucking shit up for everyone else. they need to be put down.
then move to saudi arabia.
To describe Mark Duggan as simply a father of four in a bid to win sympathy is misleading. If a man is carrying a gun he should be prepared to be shot as there is no other reason for carrying a gun other than for shooting or intimidating people.
Yes, but there are four reasons that why he shouldn't have ever carried a gun.
Guy Incognito
08-09-2011, 11:39 AM
this had something to do with mark duggan for about half an hour when people started protesting. The rest is knobheads out for a ruck or a blackberry or cos they were bored. Its spreading cos people are miffed that some londoners have got a nice haul out of it and others want to see if they can do the same.
There is no way that the following had anything to do with protesting about a police shooting.
Burning a carpet shop
The 40 year old woman trying trainers on before she looted them
The people who broke into mcdonalds and actually started making burgers
throwing planks at people minding their own on a bus.
The whole thing is shit. Two words, water fucking cannons. Fuck 'em.
FFS.
TurdBerglar
08-09-2011, 11:44 AM
regardless, if this guy is a violent offender, and if the prosecutor or d.a. is competent, then he will be rightfully sentenced.
it's not about being rightfully sentenced it's about the fools that defend people like this. this is how more and more people think now. sympathetic towards the ones that create havok for normal law abiding people. giving these assholes more power and oppertunities to make things worse for everyone else.
well wasn't this guy a known drug dealer or just an all around scumbag? i don't really know much about this story but if a scumbag carrying a gun is shot dead.... GOOD.
"Fuck it, I know nothing about this person or the circumstances surrounding their death BUT THAT ISN'T GOING TO STOP ME HAVING AN OPINION, FUCK YEAH, AMERICA."
Exactly, the last riot I saw on TV was over hockey, it was worth mocking - I figured this was somethin similar, oops..
Well then you're twice the muppet I originally took you for.
it's not about being rightfully sentenced it's about the fools that defend people like this. this is how more and more people think now. sympathetic towards the ones that create havok for normal law abiding people. giving these assholes more power and oppertunities to make things worse for everyone else.
this has nothing to do with sympathy. again, due process is a key component of western democracy.
Mark Duggan did not shoot at police, says IPCC
IPCC releases initial findings of ballistics tests in police shooting of Mark Duggan, whose death sparked London riots
Jeevan Vasagar
guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/mark-duggan-police-ipcc), Tuesday 9 August 2011 18.34 BST
Mark Duggan, whose shooting by police sparked London's riots, did not fire a shot at police officers before they killed him, the Independent Police Complaints Commission said on Tuesday.
Releasing the initial findings of ballistics tests, the police watchdog said a CO19 firearms officer fired two bullets, and that a bullet that lodged in a police radio was "consistent with being fired from a police gun".
One theory, not confirmed by the IPCC, is that the bullet became lodged in the radio from a ricochet or after passing through Duggan.
Duggan, 29, was killed last Thursday in Tottenham, north London, after armed officers stopped the minicab in which he was travelling.
The IPCC said Duggan was carrying a loaded gun, but it had no evidence that the weapon had been fired. It said tests were continuing.
The officer who fired the fatal shots has been removed from firearms duties, which is standard procedure, pending the IPCC investigation.
Officers from the Met's Operation Trident and Special Crime Directorate 11, accompanied by officers from CO19, the Met's specialist firearms command, stopped the silver Toyota Estima minicab in Ferry Lane, close to Tottenham Hale tube station, to arrest Duggan.
He was killed by a single gunshot wound to the chest, and received a second gunshot wound to his right bicep. He was pronounced dead at the scene at 6.41pm.
The IPCC's statement said the bullet lodged in the police radio was a "jacketed round". This is a police-issue bullet and is "consistent with having been fired from a [police] Heckler and Koch MP5", it said.
TurdBerglar
08-09-2011, 03:09 PM
"Fuck it, I know nothing about this person or the circumstances surrounding their death BUT THAT ISN'T GOING TO STOP ME HAVING AN OPINION, FUCK YEAH, AMERICA."
i know enough from what i've read that this person was a known gang member and that is enough to know he shouldn't be living.
TurdBerglar
08-09-2011, 03:10 PM
this has nothing to do with sympathy. again, due process is a key component of western democracy.
and due process is conducted by people that have their own opinions/agendas/feelings.
miss soul fire
08-09-2011, 03:18 PM
Hihi. Paddy's totally involved!:p
like2_drink
08-09-2011, 11:14 PM
Well then you're twice the muppet I originally took you for.
dummy, I'm at least 4 times the muppet you originally took me for, fool;) U fuckin tit-teh, I originally passed by the TV and saw that your country was in shambles, didn't have the time to stick around and find out what was up, so I posted on here later to get some feedback, fuck yourself hah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o&feature=autoshare
"When you cut the facilities, slash jobs, abuse power, discriminate, drive people deeper into poverty and shoot people dead whilst refusing to provide answers or justice the people will rise up and express their anger and frustration if you refuse to hear their cries. A riot is the language of the unheard." - dr. martin luther king jr.
venusvenus123
08-10-2011, 10:05 AM
Why is Darcus Howe being painted as such a martyr? ("The BBC won't show this") He's been a regular on the BBC throughout this past week. He also says "they blew his head off"--they didn't, they shot him in the chest. He seems to be over-dramatasing the event for effect. I'm not saying I don't respect any of what he's saying.
The following is a statement from the family of Mark Duggan:
"We want to establish the truth about Mark's death.
"The family want everyone to know that the disorder going on has nothing to do with finding out what happened to Mark."
It's been quite broadly established that a lot of the rioting is just plain opportunism. It hasn't been a protest really, just an opportunity to loot and grab stuff for free.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6iLggKf1qM
i know enough from what i've read that this person was a known gang member and that is enough to know he shouldn't be living.
You're basing your opinion on hearsay that has been reported as 'news' and 'fact' by the 24-hour rolling new channels and selective reading to support your agenda.
Don't mistake me for someone who has sympathy for the guy. I don't. In fact, if I'm honest, I think it's likely that some of these allegations are true. However, as soon as you neglect 'due process', and go around delivering this type of justice, you immediately run the risk of turning these people into martyrs. These riots are not politically motivated, but there's no doubt in my mind that had this guy just been arrested and 'brought in' none of this crap would've kicked off.
In the meantime, continue to carry your guns and shoot up your schools. That's a far better way of life.
Guy Incognito
08-10-2011, 02:35 PM
http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/
Echewta
08-10-2011, 03:03 PM
I'm surprised anti-riot vigilantes haven't gathered up posses to restore order that the cops haven't been able to.
roosta
08-10-2011, 03:12 PM
I'm surprised anti-riot vigilantes haven't gathered up posses to restore order that the cops haven't been able to.
It's kind of happened in some spots different groups from regular locals, to football fans, to nationalist/racist groups, to religious groups (Sikhs/Muslims) in different areas.
Why is Darcus Howe being painted as such a martyr? ("The BBC won't show this") He's been a regular on the BBC throughout this past week. He also says "they blew his head off"--they didn't, they shot him in the chest. He seems to be over-dramatasing the event for effect. I'm not saying I don't respect any of what he's saying.
i don't know, ask the person who uploaded the video to youtube.
It's been quite broadly established that a lot of the rioting is just plain opportunism. It hasn't been a protest really, just an opportunity to loot and grab stuff for free.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6iLggKf1qM
of course, they're just kids and teenagers being shits.
however, when you combine poverty with a lack of educational and employment opportunities, corrupt law enforcement, an indifferent society and austerity measures et al, the shit is bound to hit the fan.
we need to send in this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrz3W0-NkNI) to sort this out.
Kid Presentable
08-10-2011, 04:58 PM
however, when you combine poverty with a lack of educational and employment opportunities, corrupt law enforcement, an indifferent society and austerity measures et al, the shit is bound to hit the fan.
As long as middle class bleeding hearts can type about it from behind their computers and intellectualise and rationalise plain old shitty behaviour.
Nicodemus
08-10-2011, 07:16 PM
Saz hates white people.
As long as middle class bleeding hearts can type about it from behind their computers and intellectualise and rationalise plain old shitty behaviour.
of course, they're just kids and teenagers being shits.
yeah, i'm really rationalizing it.
Kid Presentable
08-10-2011, 10:28 PM
Oh, so you identify as a middle class bleeding heart? Whoops. Not what I meant mate.
like anyone else i abhor the murder of innocent people, lawlessness and the destruction of private property, but also understands the root causes of it.
Lex Diamonds
08-11-2011, 09:39 AM
The best thing about the riots is they have revealed the number of right wing morons who wish to bring about the death penalty or exercise some other kind of fascist power over what they term "the lower classes". When the grass is cut the snakes will show... I gotta thank the little homey Gnauze for that though.
Kid Presentable
08-11-2011, 05:51 PM
like anyone else i abhor the murder of innocent people, lawlessness and the destruction of private property, but also understands the root causes of it.
I don't recall you mentioning Sir William Beveridge and his sole hesitation about the long-term effects of a welfare state, as seen in the actions of these 3rd generation welfare-dependents.
Nicodemus
08-11-2011, 06:42 PM
I heard an interview with one of the rioters today.
INTERVIEWER: Why are you doing this?
IDIOT: To show the police we can do whatever we want.
INTERVIEWER: But why are you destroying local businesses?
IDIOT: Because the rich caused all this.
INTERVIEWER: Starbucks? Really?
I don't think half of them even know the "root cause of it." First it's the cops, then the rich. They're just going for it. There is no justification for stupidity.
I don't recall you mentioning Sir William Beveridge and his sole hesitation about the long-term effects of a welfare state, as seen in the actions of these 3rd generation welfare-dependents.
well, sweden, norway, denmark, germany, canada etc have maintained exceptional standards of living.
Kid Presentable
08-11-2011, 09:12 PM
well, sweden, norway, denmark, germany, canada etc have maintained exceptional standards of living.
Yeah I've read that book, too. Doesn't change the fact that it's failing in Britain right in front of our eyes.
Lex Diamonds
08-11-2011, 09:27 PM
This is a very insightful reaction to the thugger-than-thou culture that has gripped UK inner city kids over the last 10 years or so (it was recorded about 2 years ago but still feels relevant): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsZZ8caB5dw
Lex Diamonds
08-11-2011, 09:32 PM
I'm surprised anti-riot vigilantes haven't gathered up posses to restore order that the cops haven't been able to.
2 groups of my friends have actually done this.
Yeah I've read that book, too. Doesn't change the fact that it's failing in Britain right in front of our eyes.
These riots reflect a society run on greed and looting
David Cameron has to maintain that the unrest has no cause except criminality – or he and his friends might be held responsible
Seumas Milne
guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/10/riots-reflect-society-run-greed-looting), Wednesday 10 August 2011 22.39 BST
It is essential for those in power in Britain that the riots now sweeping the country can have no cause beyond feral wickedness. This is nothing but "criminality, pure and simple", David Cameron declared after cutting short his holiday in Tuscany. The London mayor and fellow former Bullingdon Club member Boris Johnson, heckled by hostile Londoners in Clapham Junction, warned that rioters must stop hearing "economic and sociological justifications" (though who was offering them he never explained) for what they were doing.
When his predecessor Ken Livingstone linked the riots to the impact of public spending cuts, it was almost as if he'd torched a building himself. The Daily Mail thundered that blaming cuts was "immoral and cynical", echoed by a string of armchair riot control enthusiasts. There was nothing to explain, they've insisted, and the only response should be plastic bullets, water cannon and troops on the streets.
We'll hear a lot more of that when parliament meets – and it's not hard to see why. If these riots have no social or political causes, then clearly no one in authority can be held responsible. What's more, with many people terrified by the mayhem and angry at the failure of the police to halt its spread, it offers the government a chance to get back on the front foot and regain its seriously damaged credibility as a force for social order.
But it's also a nonsensical position. If this week's eruption is an expression of pure criminality and has nothing to do with police harassment or youth unemployment or rampant inequality or deepening economic crisis, why is it happening now and not a decade ago? The criminal classes, as the Victorians branded those at the margins of society, are always with us, after all. And if it has no connection with Britain's savage social divide and ghettoes of deprivation, why did it kick off in Haringey and not Henley?
To accuse those who make those obvious links of being apologists or "making excuses" for attacks on firefighters or robbing small shopkeepers is equally fatuous. To refuse to recognise the causes of the unrest is to make it more likely to recur – and ministers themselves certainly won't be making that mistake behind closed doors if they care about their own political futures.
It was the same when riots erupted in London and Liverpool 30 years ago, also triggered by confrontation between the police and black community, when another Conservative government was driving through cuts during a recession. The people of Brixton and Toxteth were denounced as criminals and thugs, but within weeks Michael Heseltine was writing a private memo to the cabinet, beginning with "it took a riot", and setting out the urgent necessity to take action over urban deprivation.
This time, the multi-ethnic unrest has spread far further and faster. It's been less politicised and there's been far more looting, to the point where in many areas grabbing "free stuff" has been the main action. But there's no mystery as to where the upheaval came from. It was triggered by the police killing a young black man in a country where black people are 26 times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than their white counterparts. The riot that exploded in Tottenham in response at the weekend took (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/17/stop-and-search-race-figures)place in an area with the highest unemployment in London (https://spreadsheets.google.com/a/guardian.co.uk/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdEhTV3RpenFJZlNQZGNCWXFsc0Y4c 1E&hl=en#gid=0), whose youth clubs have been closed to meet a 75% cut in its youth services budget.
It then erupted across what is now by some measures the most unequal city in the developed world, where the wealth of the richest 10% has risen to 273 times that of the poorest, drawing in young people who have had their educational maintenance allowance axed just as official youth unemployment has reached a record high and university places are being cut back under the weight of a tripling of tuition fees.
Now the unrest has gone nationwide. But it's not as if rioting was unexpected when the government embarked on its reckless programme to shrink the state. Last autumn the Police Superintendents' Association warned of the dangers of slashing police numbers (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/sep/13/police-take-care-cuts-protests) at a time when they were likely to be needed to deal with "social tensions" or "widespread disorder". Less than a fortnight ago, Tottenham youths told the Guardian they expected a riot (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/video/2011/jul/31/haringey-youth-club-closures-video).
Politicians and media talking heads counter that none of that has anything to do with sociopathic teenagers smashing shop windows to walk off with plasma TVs and trainers. But where exactly did the rioters get the idea that there is no higher value than acquiring individual wealth, or that branded goods are the route to identity and self-respect?
While bankers have publicly looted the country's wealth and got away with it, it's not hard to see why those who are locked out of the gravy train might think they were entitled to help themselves to a mobile phone. Some of the rioters make the connection explicitly. "The politicians say that we loot and rob, they are the original gangsters," (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/09/britain-riot-contrast-idUSL6E7J91RM20110809) one told a reporter. Another explained to the BBC: "We're showing the rich people we can do what we want." (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424)
Most have no stake in a society which has shut them out or an economic model which has now run into the sand. It's already become clear that divided Britain is in no state to absorb the austerity now being administered because three decades of neoliberal capitalism have already shattered so many social bonds of work and community.
What we're now seeing across the cities of England is the reflection of a society run on greed – and a poisonous failure of politics and social solidarity. There is now a danger that rioting might feed into ethnic conflict. Meanwhile, the latest phase of the economic crisis lurching back and forth between the United States and Europe risks tipping austerity Britain into slump or prolonged stagnation. We're starting to see the devastating costs of refusing to change course.
London's richest people worth 273 times more than the poorest
Academic argues in new book that society has the widest divide since the days of slavery
Randeep Ramesh, social affairs editor
The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/apr/21/wealth-social-divide-health-inequality), Wednesday 21 April 2010
London is most unequal city in the developed world, with the richest tenth of the population amassing 273 times the wealth owned by the bottom tenth – which creates a "means chasm" not seen since the days of a "slave owning society", according to a new book.
In Injustice: Why Social Inequality Persists published by Policy Press, Danny Dorling, a professor of human geography at Sheffield University and an expert on social disparity, paints a bleak picture of an extremely unjust Britain where differences in wealth have led to a profoundly divided society.
Dorling said Labour had managed to stop the gap in incomes from getting bigger, but this had not stopped the rich getting richer. The wealthiest had amassed assets such as second homes and expansive stock portfolios.
He says the government's latest figures show that in the capital the top 10% of society had on average a wealth of £933,563 compared to the meagre £3,420 of the poorest 10% – a wealth multiple of 273.
"We are getting wealth inequalities in London now as far as we know that have not been seen since the days of a slave-owning elite. The lesson is that it is not enough to just stop the disparity in incomes from getting bigger – you have to make it smaller to stop wealth inequality from getting worse."
This wealth gap has produced an alarming health gap – with the life expectancy at birth of the richest group rising by a year annually, while the poorest are seeing almost no rise at all. In 2008, a female born in London's exclusive Kensington and Chelsea could expect to live until 88 and nine months – a year earlier she would have reached 87.9. In Glasgow, by contrast, where women were expected to live until 77.1 in 2007, the rise was only a month to 77.2 in 2008.
In Europe, only Portugal appears more unequal than Britain. Instead of seeking to reduce inequalities, Dorling argues, Westminster politicians simply accept that it is unfortunate but inevitable, rather than seeing it as undoing the "warp and weft of society".
The result is that the affluent have been allowed to lose touch with the everyday norms of society. The academic points out the cost of a flat in the City of London rose by 24% to almost £450,000 in 2009.
"Prices jumped at a time of recession. The rich really aren't like us ... they operate in a different world," said Dorling.
This segregating effect means that the wealthiest are "socially excluding themselves by choice".
.
Lex Diamonds
08-11-2011, 09:47 PM
Unfortunately, quoting The Guardian is often enough to be dismissed by certain people off-hand.
Kid Presentable
08-11-2011, 10:17 PM
Surprised it took that long for the links to come out. It's all good, I just don't see how newspaper articles add weight to the discussion.
venusvenus123
08-12-2011, 03:45 AM
^^Agreed KP, and it's annoying because I don't know how to copy the text in like that and make it look professional. :mad: See below!
This is a very insightful reaction to the thugger-than-thou culture that has gripped UK inner city kids over the last 10 years or so (it was recorded about 2 years ago but still feels relevant): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsZZ8caB5dw
It's almost unreal that the ad before the video is for trainers. Haha. So this is what the kids are fed. :/
The video is amazing. That guy speaks such truth. Brilliant.
Of course the riots have a social background but it's never that simple. There are so many nuanced factors at play. I completely abhor the cuts to education and local youth centre budgets. That's terrible, it seems the stupidest thing to do, cutting educational allowance. BUT the EMA has not been cut yet so these kids are not actually affected by it. There is already word that the police budget might not be cut, after all. Hmm.
This country has a predictable political cylce: the Labour Govt overspend everything, then the Tories come in and have to squeeze everything.
I hope that something good can come out of these awful days. The 5th person died this morning, as a result of being beaten up by hoodies in West Ealing. My nan lives there. Argh! The kid who did it will get locked up, but what will that do? Will he be released a better person more willing to engage meaningfully in society?
I was just listening to a debate on the radio and this guy who works with young gang members said a few interesting things. Parenting is severely lacking in a lot of cases. He said when one mum told her 15 year old to go to school he punched her in the face.
He then went on to say that outlawing smacking children by one of the Governments was to blame for her not being able to control her children. Oh the irony!
It is probably true tho that the teachers have had their powers taken away. They're barely allowed to discipline any of these kids for fear of legal reprisals.
My kid starts at the local secondary school in September. It is an "Ofsted outstanding" school. A great mix of kids go there--coming from Peckham, Dulwich, Brixton and ....Guardian journalists (no shit, Jay Rayner's a parent there). I'll report back on the gang culture there. Or not.
The whole of our society has to look at itself. Bankers have behaved dreadfully and everyone's pissed off with them; the whole hacking scandal showed how the media, the police and the government (both labour and conservative) are all in each others' pockets. So much corruption.
This is an eye witness account of Tottenham from a guy who's grown up there, Franklyn Addo:
Franklyn Addo, guardian.co.uk
Tuesday 9 August 2011 12.44 BST
There can be few Londoners who are not aware of the riots that suddenly erupted after controversy surrounding the death of Mark Duggan. Although the media are doing their best to keep the public informed of what is happening in their area, your perception of events is vastly different when witnessing firsthand your local community being destroyed.
On Monday evening, I watched people mindlessly destroy the Pembury estate in Hackney, where I live – setting cars alight, destroying the local newsagents and damaging nearby buildings.
The newsagents had taken the precautionary measure of closing for business during the day to avoid damage being caused to the shop. This proved futile as by 8pm it had been looted and severely damaged as people casually waltzed in, stealing groceries as they pleased.
As I watched the events unfold through my window, I was appalled by the animalistic behaviour of a minority committed to causing as much trouble as possible for no apparent reason. An insufficient number of police were deployed to Mare Street and Clarence Road, offering futile attempts to contain the anger of a vast number of youths, the source of which remains unknown.
Pembury Estate was once plagued by crime, ranging from gun activity and drugs to robberies. I've witnessed police raids, mini-riots between youths and heavy police patrols. As a young teenager in secondary school, peers were often afraid to visit my home for fear of being attacked or robbed on the way through the estate. But anyone living here will be able to testify that over the last five years, the area has improved significantly and has become safer to walk through and live in. The local council was committed to providing funding for youth clubs and other regenerative schemes to deter young people from engaging in criminal activities, which contributed to the area improving greatly over time.
The events this week will undo years of work to regenerate the estate and restore the confidence of residents in their safety. Early on Tuesday morning, the estate resembled a desolate wasteland.
What began as a group of people rightfully seeking an explanation from the police about the death of a community member has evolved into a group of people being malignant without motive, actively destroying the communities to which they belong. People are tarnishing the memory of Duggan by committing atrocities in his name, despite his family members repeatedly imploring them to stop. They are using recent events to fulfil personal vendettas against the Metropolitan police; to steal items from shops; to commit organised crime; and to contribute to the unrest in society.
This minority of people far overshadow the many law-abiding citizens who are genuinely outraged by Duggan's death and are peacefully awaiting their owed explanation from the Met. Of course, there must be a full investigation into what happened to Duggan and appropriate action must be taken. But current events will inevitably exacerbate the already established stereotype of the majority of young individuals as "thugs" and "gangsters", especially within the black community.
It will take million of pounds to restore the damage caused in affected boroughs such as mine. It will take years to rebuild community relations and trust in authoritative bodies, which in turn will restore solidarity in my community. Unfortunately, the mental scars and the afflictions of those who have been injured, those whose homes have been destroyed and those whose livelihoods have been adversely affected by these wholly unacceptable events, may never fully heal.
Turns out Franklyn Addo is a straight A student who's recently turned down a place at Cambridge. So much for there being no education opportunities in our inner cities. :rolleyes:
Media reports that I turned down a place at Cambridge University because there was no rap scene are inaccurate
Franklyn Addo
guardian.co.uk, Monday 20 June 2011 12.06 BST
As a 17-year-old male living in arguably one of the most deprived and dangerous estates in Hackney, the odds of attaining educational and career success seemed to be against me. But I have taken it upon myself to defy them: I have achieved three As and a B in my AS-levels and received offers to study at five universities including Cambridge, and I have released two rap mixtapes alongside Mobo award-winning musician Victizzle.
To the surprise of many, I've declined my offer to read psychology, sociology and politics at Cambridge, opting to study sociology at the London School of Economics instead. The decision sparked a large amount of media interest last week, and stories about me appeared in newspapers including the Sun, the Daily Mail and The Voice. But many of the reports have been inaccurate. They said my decision was fuelled by the fact that I rap and do not want to leave London, portraying me in a manner that conforms to the stereotype that individuals in my demographic are ignorant and short-sighted.
They misquoted me, took what I said out of context and unfairly represented me to make the story more newsworthy. The papers quoted me as saying I turned down Cambridge because it "has no music scene", that it "would have been much harder to carry on doing music if I was in Cambridge" because "I only know one rapper there". Don't they know that with the growth in online music collaboration there is less need for a physical "scene"?
The real reasons that lead me to my decision – one I did not take lightly – are much more significant than the lack of a "music scene". Having meticulously assessed the content of the courses offered at LSE and Cambridge, I decided I would be more suited to the course in London. Crucially, studying at LSE also makes more financial sense, as I would not have to pay for accommodation.
Obtaining an offer from Oxbridge is such a rarity, especially for people like me who come from a relatively deprived area. This causes some to believe that the interview process is bound to be extremely scary. Contrary to this, I found the interview was not frightening; the environment was pleasant and the interviewers welcoming. I enjoyed having a formal conversation about concepts within sociology, a field I am passionate about. After being given time to digest a case study, two interviewers quizzed me about the information I was given and assessed my ability to make links between sociological, psychological and political concepts. If you are knowledgeable about the subject you're applying for, the interview process is likely to be enjoyable, although indubitably challenging.
Indeed, from my personal experience, Cambridge appears to be meritocratic and non-discriminatory, although the demographics of current undergraduate students may suggest differently. Some of my peers view Oxbridge as a desirable goal to which some aspire, but others see it as an elitist institution; perhaps due to the false belief that it is impossible for them to receive offers to study there. People from deprived areas must assess their way of thinking and begin to understand that society is becoming increasingly meritocratic and that anything is possible with hard work.
Furthermore, schools and colleges should encourage people who have the academic ability to apply and help them with the process – as my sociology teacher at Woodhouse College in Barnet, Nazia Rahim, did with me. She provided me with extracurricular help, a mock interview for Cambridge and was pivotal in developing my understanding that I can achieve what I set my mind to. Schools and authority figures should be active in empowering the local community to aim high from a young age and encourage young people to take part in extracurricular activities so they are attractive applicants to whichever university they decide upon, or whatever career they decide to pursue.
lol them riots, whats that all aboot eh, lets go smash all the windows in vancouver over a fucking hockey game.
Those Canucks are crazy about their hockey, I think the last riot in the us too was when the colorado avalanche won the stanley cup years ago. But who knows might be one in Milwaukee soon if black kids keep jumping white people lately.
Porkys1982#1fan
08-12-2011, 02:30 PM
Well, I don't feel bad about cracking a joke, but I do feel for Duggan's faimly; I didn't know the origins of the riots, but now that I do, I think a response of "Fuck the police" would've been more appropriate then to think you were needed to 'stick up' for someone on the internet; it's the INTERNET afterall. Again tho, thoughts are w Duggan's fam. and I hope noone else gets seriously hurt in the riots.
I was hoping when you had internet in bold it was a linking further explaining this internet. Rats
like2_drink
08-12-2011, 09:49 PM
2 groups of my friends have actually done this.
Out of curiosity; what held you back?
Surprised it took that long for the links to come out. It's all good, I just don't see how newspaper articles add weight to the discussion.
well, facts and reality add weight to the discussion, especially when the same scenario played itself out thirty years ago in liverpool and london (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/tottenham-history-rioting), when the tories drove through spending cuts in the midst of a recession. nor does it help when a black guy was supposed to be apprehended but was instead killed, when blacks are 26 times more likely to be pulled over and searched by police than white people (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/17/stop-and-search-race-figures). what stands out as well is that the initial riot occurred in tottenham, which has the highest unemployment in london (https://spreadsheets.google.com/a/guardian.co.uk/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdEhTV3RpenFJZlNQZGNCWXFsc0Y4c 1E&hl=en#gid=0), where in addition clubs for teenagers have been closed, due to a 75% cut in the youth services budget. couple this with the fact that the divide between the haves and have nots in the city is the largest in the industrialized world, in which the wealth of the richest 10% has grown to 273 times more than the poorest (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/apr/21/wealth-social-divide-health-inequality). then, factor in a record high in youth unemployment (http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2011/08/10/london-may-be-latest-to-feel-effects-of-youth-unemployment/), a warning from the police superintendents' association that cutting law enforcement services (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/sep/13/police-take-care-cuts-protests), would eventually result with social disorder. the media were even told (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/video/2011/jul/31/haringey-youth-club-closures-video) by kids in tottenham that trouble should be expected.
This country has a predictable political cylce: the Labour Govt overspend everything, then the Tories come in and have to squeeze everything.
not only do labour not spend enough, or rather, spend wisely, but they're really nothing more than a tory-lite party. the german economy (http://economicsnewspaper.com/policy/german/booming-german-economy-in-particular-by-domestic-spending-27930.html) is one of the strongest (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/08/business/economy/08leonhardt.html) in the world, with a financial services or banking sector which is diligently regulated; a 6.1% unemployment rate, a small deficit; a booming green economy sector; a government that encourages union growth (http://unionreview.com/germany-discovers-boosting-unions-reduces-unemployment) which has: bolstered economic equality amoung the classes, with only the top 1% earning or controling 11% of all income, roughly the same rate since 1970. the wealth and corporate elite also pay their fair share in taxes, and when workers have higher wages it increases their purchasing power which increases the demand for more jobs in the manufacturing and service sectors, while the tory-thatcherite union busting vastly contributes to unemployment and prolonging recessions.
as for franklyn addo, yeah that was dumb, but still (http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2011/08/10/london-may-be-latest-to-feel-effects-of-youth-unemployment/).
The whole of our society has to look at itself. Bankers have behaved dreadfully and everyone's pissed off with them; the whole hacking scandal showed how the media, the police and the government (both labour and conservative) are all in each others' pockets. So much corruption.
(y)(y)(y)
Lex Diamonds
08-13-2011, 06:05 PM
Out of curiosity; what held you back?
My view of the whole thing aligns more with this man (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/11/london-riots-davidcameron). I don't think violence vs. violence is the answer to be honest, although I would like to see those who have ruined livelihoods brought to justice in a more legitimate form. We need to avoid descent into a police state/class war though, the reaction to unrest shouldn't be fascism.
Kid Presentable
08-13-2011, 08:53 PM
well, facts and reality add weight to the discussion, especially when the same scenario played itself out thirty years ago in liverpool and london (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/tottenham-history-rioting), when the tories drove through spending cuts in the midst of a recession. nor does it help when a black guy was supposed to be apprehended but was instead killed, when blacks are 26 times more likely to be pulled over and searched by police than white people (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/17/stop-and-search-race-figures). what stands out as well is that the initial riot occurred in tottenham, which has the highest unemployment in london (https://spreadsheets.google.com/a/guardian.co.uk/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdEhTV3RpenFJZlNQZGNCWXFsc0Y4c 1E&hl=en#gid=0), where in addition clubs for teenagers have been closed, due to a 75% cut in the youth services budget. couple this with the fact that the divide between the haves and have nots in the city is the largest in the industrialized world, in which the wealth of the richest 10% has grown to 273 times more than the poorest (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/apr/21/wealth-social-divide-health-inequality). then, factor in a record high in youth unemployment (http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2011/08/10/london-may-be-latest-to-feel-effects-of-youth-unemployment/), a warning from the police superintendents' association that cutting law enforcement services (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/sep/13/police-take-care-cuts-protests), would eventually result with social disorder. the media were even told (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/video/2011/jul/31/haringey-youth-club-closures-video) by kids in tottenham that trouble should be expected.
not only do labour not spend enough, or rather, spend wisely, but they're really nothing more than a tory-lite party. the german economy (http://economicsnewspaper.com/policy/german/booming-german-economy-in-particular-by-domestic-spending-27930.html) is one of the strongest (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/08/business/economy/08leonhardt.html) in the world, with a financial services or banking sector which is diligently regulated; a 6.1% unemployment rate, a small deficit; a booming green economy sector; a government that encourages union growth (http://unionreview.com/germany-discovers-boosting-unions-reduces-unemployment) which has: bolstered economic equality amoung the classes, with only the top 1% earning or controling 11% of all income, roughly the same rate since 1970. the wealth and corporate elite also pay their fair share in taxes, and when workers have higher wages it increases their purchasing power which increases the demand for more jobs in the manufacturing and service sectors, while the tory-thatcherite union busting vastly contributes to unemployment and prolonging recessions.
as for franklyn addo, yeah that was dumb, but still (http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2011/08/10/london-may-be-latest-to-feel-effects-of-youth-unemployment/).
(y)(y)(y)
Get a grip. They're nice theories. Have you lived there?
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