Song for the man ~ Real life

[TreasureEverywh]

So I'm on the underground this evening when a posse of young men gets on and one of them pointedly sits down opposite me, starts pointedly giving me the eye, and repeatedly points his camera phone at me. I, in turn, start feeling very uncomfortable.

And then I found "Song for the Man" on the mp3 player, relaxed and thought, "Well, fuck you." Or, in slightly more polite words, I felt empowered.

Probably that empowerment should have manifested itself in some choice words, which it didn't (maybe next time). Still, I heard the song and immediately that macho bullshit seemed too ridiculous to feel uncomfortable about. Nice.

[MsPacMan]

FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!

Song For The Man (live in Sydney): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS4QH4-Jm0Q

Thankyou Adam.

Thankyou for being there with me, every day on the train……..

.…….every time a guy plants himself RIGHT down next to me, when the carriage is empty;

Thankyou for being there…….

……..every time a man focuses on how I look before he hears what I’m trying to say;

.…….every time a man thinks he has a right to call me a “bitch” simply because I refuse to allow him to treat me like a doormat;

.…….every time a man who’s making a pass at me hears me say the word “no”;
and convinces himself that my response is the beginning of the negotiation,
rather than the end of the conversation;

.…….every time I go to see a band and some guy makes me feel self-conscious when I’m just trying to dance with my friends;

…….every time a man LOOKS ME UP AND DOWN…..

THANKYOU for being there.

THANKYOU for asking that guy: “WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT?”

Thankyou Adam Horovitz.

You are smarter and cooler than those guys can ever hope to be.

And you’re on MY SIDE.

FUCK YEAH! ADAM HOROVITZ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ3O-UgjRAM

[WhoMoi?]

It's so great that you had that song with you to help you deal with that annoying, uncomfortable moment, right on the spot!
"What makes this world so sick and evil?" :mad:

I remember when I first read the liner notes about the story behind Song for the Man, I thought, "Wow, a guy actually gets it." I was already a big BBoys fan, but after learning what the idea was behind that song, I developed even more of an incredible respect for them as people.

I'm still impressed by how Adam H. put the concept into words so well in the liner notes for that song. Like most females, I've been put in many situations similar to that of the woman he described, and they always made me feel so uncomfortable, frustrated, and offended; the uncomfortableness was understandable, but I could never really describe why I felt frustrated and offended on top of that, and so I just figured I was overreacting, and would think about how maybe MY behavior needed to change: "Eh, the guy told me to smile...I guess I should be smiling nonstop while I'm walking through the grocery store!" But reading Adrock's assessment of that woman on the train totally validated my previously inexplicable feelings by revealing that those kinds of comments and actions are based in sexism, and it showed me that there are guys out there who understand that that's not right. The knowledge that some men understand this gave me hope for the future of how women are regarded and treated in society, in all cultures!

Anyway - just more reasons why the BBoys are awesome. (y)

[MsPacMan]

I remember when I first read the liner notes about the story behind Song for the Man, I thought, "Wow, a guy actually gets it." I was already a big BBoys fan, but after learning what the idea was behind that song, I developed even more of an incredible respect for them as people.

I'm still impressed by how Adam H. put the concept into words so well in the liner notes for that song.

It just occurred to me that some people mightn’t have read Adam’s explanation of the origins of that song.
This was printed in the big white “Sounds of Science” book; y’all.

http://www.amazon.com/Beastie-Boys-Anthology-Sounds-Science/dp/1576871053/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1341626525&sr=8-3&keywords=beastie+boys+sounds+of+science+book

“I don’t really know where to start with this one. Sexism is so deeply rooted in our history and society that waking up and stepping outside of it is like I’m watching “Night of the Living Dead Part Two” all day everyday. Listening to the lyrics of this song, one might say that the Beastie Boy “Fight For Your Right to Party” guy is a hypocrite. Well, maybe; but in this fucked up world all you can hope for is change, and I’d rather be a hypocrite to you than a zombie forever.

Well one summer I kept taking the one train (my personal favorite) and guaranteed on my way to the station I’d see some guy saying some stupid shit to some woman; you know like, “Hey you’re so pretty, don’t be sad; you should smile.” Anyway, on my way to meet a friend one day this guy was on the train with his “buddy”. He was making these, like, snapping sounds with his teeth at this lady. I think it was his pick-up line. She tried to just ignore them and get off at her stop. Which she did. After she left and the doors closed the guy and his “buddy” started to rate her on a scale of one to ten.

This song is for them.”

-- Adam Horovitz on “Song For The Man”, 1999

LYRICS:

"I don't like your attitude boy"

What makes you feel
And why you gotta' be
Like you got the right
To look her up and down
What makes this world
So sick and evil
I know you don't know

What makes you feel
Like you got miracle whip appeal
Who made you the judge an jury
Ain't you never heard of privacy
What makes this world
So sick and evil
You figure it out
You figure it out

You figure it out

...... I just figured I was overreacting, and would think about how maybe MY behavior needed to change. But reading Adrock's assessment of that woman on the train totally validated my previously inexplicable feelings by revealing that those kinds of comments and actions are based in sexism, and it showed me that there are guys out there who understand that that's not right. The knowledge that some men understand this gave me hope for the future of how women are regarded and treated in society, in all cultures!


Or, as Kathleen Hanna so rightly puts it:

“NO we are not paranoid.
NO we are not manhaters.
NO we are not worrying too much.
NO we are not taking it too seriously.”

[Heather_D]

Great videos, MsPacMan. I remember when Riot Grrl started. I think I was, like, the only person in my tiny New Hampshire "city" that was aware of it. I've, fortunately, not had to deal with things like what you all have described (I've been on the opposite side- the not so cute so they mess with you like that side) but I've seen it happen to my friends over & over. I wish I had paid more attention to this song. But it's never too late.

[MCA4ever]

(I've been on the opposite side- the not so cute so they mess with you like that side)

Don't let a bunch of sterotypical assholes make you feel bad about yourself. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder so, consider the source ;)

[Heather_D]

Aww, thanks. I guess I'm just sort of down cos something happened just recently & I have to think its looks based cos as soon as this person saw my picture I heard nothing from them. Perhaps I should've sent them these lyrics. Idiot.

[WhoMoi?]

Don't let a bunch of sterotypical assholes make you feel bad about yourself. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder so, consider the source ;)

(y)(y)(y)

[WhoMoi?]

Or, as Kathleen Hanna so rightly puts it:

“NO we are not paranoid.
NO we are not manhaters.
NO we are not worrying too much.
NO we are not taking it too seriously.”

Thanks, MsPacMan - that's great. Is that quote from an interview or a song?

[MCA4ever]

Aww, thanks. I guess I'm just sort of down cos something happened just recently & I have to think its looks based cos as soon as this person saw my picture I heard nothing from them. Perhaps I should've sent them these lyrics. Idiot.


You need to find yourself a nice BBMB member :)

[Heather_D]

You need to find yourself a nice BBMB member :)



:eek: Not to get into too much detail, but he was :mad: I can't understand. I'm plenty fine with being friends. We had a lot in common (I thought) & just outta the blue sent me a text that said something like "sorry with the g/f.". :eek: we had never even talked about relationship statuses or whatever. And I don't really think I wanted that anyway. It's his loss anyway. As other people tell me, I'm awesome :cool:

Sorry to get so off subject, but I needed to let that out.

[Randetica]

I've, fortunately, not had to deal with things like what you all have described (I've been on the opposite side- the not so cute so they mess with you like that side)

same here

It's his loss anyway.

word (y)

[pshabi]

FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!

Song For The Man (live in Sydney): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS4QH4-Jm0Q

Thankyou Adam.

Thankyou for being there with me, every day on the train……..

.…….every time a guy plants himself RIGHT down next to me, when the carriage is empty;

Thankyou for being there…….

……..every time a man focuses on how I look before he hears what I’m trying to say;

.…….every time a man thinks he has a right to call me a “bitch” simply because I refuse to allow him to treat me like a doormat;

.…….every time a man who’s making a pass at me hears me say the word “no”;
and convinces himself that my response is the beginning of the negotiation,
rather than the end of the conversation;

.…….every time I go to see a band and some guy makes me feel self-conscious when I’m just trying to dance with my friends;

…….every time a man LOOKS ME UP AND DOWN…..

THANKYOU for being there.

THANKYOU for asking that guy: “WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT?”

Thankyou Adam Horovitz.

You are smarter and cooler than those guys can ever hope to be.

And you’re on MY SIDE.

FUCK YEAH! ADAM HOROVITZ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ3O-UgjRAM

You ever do any cheerleading? :D

[MsPacMan]

Thanks, MsPacMan - that's great. Is that quote from an interview or a song?

Thankyou for asking!



Ms Kathleen Hanna’s……..

“Riot Grrrl Manifesto”

(published in the BIKINI KILL ZINE 2; 1991)

http://onewarart.org/riot_grrrl_manifesto.htm


......and you'll find the quote HERE:


http://www.katasharya.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/manifesto_riotgrrrl.jpg


<33333333333333333333333333333333

[MsPacMan]

You ever do any cheerleading? :D

fuck cheerleading (n)

let's play ball! (y)

[TreasureEverywh]

fuck cheerleading (n)

let's play ball! (y)

"I like your attitude, girl."

[MsPacMan]

"I like your attitude, girl."

I love YOU for starting this thread.

Greatest. Thread. Ever.

(2nd only to THIS one: http://bbs.beastieboys.com/showthread.php?t=68265 (http://bbs.beastieboys.com/showthread.php?t=68265))

[TreasureEverywh]

Aww, thanks. I guess I'm just sort of down cos something happened just recently & I have to think its looks based cos as soon as this person saw my picture I heard nothing from them. Perhaps I should've sent them these lyrics. Idiot.

For what it's worth, I don't think being subjected to staring and so-called pick-up lines etc. has nothing to do with whether the man in question finds a woman particularly attractive (cf. also the background of the song above, specifically: "He was making these, like, snapping sounds with his teeth at this lady. I think it was his pick-up line. She tried to just ignore them and get off at her stop. Which she did. After she left and the doors closed the guy and his “buddy” started to rate her on a scale of one to ten."), or with whether he thinks he actually increases his chance of getting into her knickers by acting the way he does.

I think it's purely a question of power. The power to make you feel uncomfortable, the power to make you avert your eyes, the power to make you change seats. In essence, the power to intrude into your world and make you acknowledge him and react to him.

Just my two cents.

[TreasureEverywh]

I love YOU for starting this thread.

Greatest. Thread. Ever.

(2nd only to THIS one: http://bbs.beastieboys.com/showthread.php?t=68265 (http://bbs.beastieboys.com/showthread.php?t=68265))

Oh sweet lord, that is one awesome thread. I need to see if any of my nieces and nephews still have their lego somewhere!

[fonky pizza]

What about machism between women? I personally got a lot of shit from other women!!
They like to think that I am wothless, that not one guy would really care for me, that I am a poor bitch...I know it's incredible, why do they feel the need to put me down? They are so competitive, maybe they are pissed that I don't give a shit about make up? Maybe they are jealous of my freedom?

just my 2 cents

[fonky pizza]

Thankyou for being there with me, every day on the train……..

Will you be with me on the train tomorrow?

[fonky pizza]

.…….every time a man thinks he has a right to call me a “bitch” simply because I refuse to allow him to treat me like a doormat;


haha!(y)

[Franci]

What about machism between women? I personally got a lot of shit from other women!!
They like to think that I am wothless, that not one guy would really care for me, that I am a poor bitch...I know it's incredible, why do they feel the need to put me down? They are so competitive, maybe they are pissed that I don't give a shit about make up? Maybe they are jealous of my freedom?

just my 2 cents

They are the bitches! :cool:

However you are right, women can be really mean :rolleyes:

[WhoMoi?]

Thankyou for asking!



Ms Kathleen Hanna’s……..

“Riot Grrrl Manifesto”

(published in the BIKINI KILL ZINE 2; 1991)

http://onewarart.org/riot_grrrl_manifesto.htm


......and you'll find the quote HERE:


http://www.katasharya.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/manifesto_riotgrrrl.jpg


<33333333333333333333333333333333

Thanks! (y)

[Heather_D]

For what it's worth, I don't think being subjected to staring and so-called pick-up lines etc. has nothing to do with whether the man in question finds a woman particularly attractive (cf. also the background of the song above, specifically: "He was making these, like, snapping sounds with his teeth at this lady. I think it was his pick-up line. She tried to just ignore them and get off at her stop. Which she did. After she left and the doors closed the guy and his “buddy” started to rate her on a scale of one to ten."), or with whether he thinks he actually increases his chance of getting into her knickers by acting the way he does.

I think it's purely a question of power. The power to make you feel uncomfortable, the power to make you avert your eyes, the power to make you change seats. In essence, the power to intrude into your world and make you acknowledge him and react to him.

Just my two cents.

Thanks for opening my eyes to that. It's true, they probably don't care what a girl looks like. But it's kindda hard for me to realize its happening to me when the girls all around me talk about it happening to them. If I ever said something, they'd look at me like I have 3 heads & I feel that way cos I'm not near as attractive as they are. I used to work in the airline industry, which is full of disgusting creeps. Something happened one night with a male co worker. I had such a hard time with it. When I got up the courage to confide in another coworker her exact words were: Don't you think you deserved it?

:eek:
That's sort of just stuck with me. I know it's not good & I've been dealing wit it for many years. No matter what someone says, does, acts doesn't give anyone the right to tell them they deserved to be raped

Sorry. Maybe way too personal, but it feels almost empowering to write that.

[WhoMoi?]

Thanks for opening my eyes to that. It's true, they probably don't care what a girl looks like. But it's kindda hard for me to realize its happening to me when the girls all around me talk about it happening to them. If I ever said something, they'd look at me like I have 3 heads & I feel that way cos I'm not near as attractive as they are. I used to work in the airline industry, which is full of disgusting creeps. Something happened one night with a male co worker. I had such a hard time with it. When I got up the courage to confide in another coworker her exact words were: Don't you think you deserved it?

:eek:
That's sort of just stuck with me. I know it's not good & I've been dealing wit it for many years. No matter what someone says, does, acts doesn't give anyone the right to tell them they deserved to be raped

Sorry. Maybe way too personal, but it feels almost empowering to write that.

I'm so sorry that that happened to you, Heather. How awful that someone - especially another woman - responded to you in that manner, when you were sharing that with her. It must have been so difficult for you to confide in her about such a traumatic situation, so getting that reaction must have been absolutely devastating. Obviously, NOTHING justifies that act of violence. I can't imagine what that woman was thinking that made her say that. :mad:

It's so aggravating to me that there are women out there who would believe/say something like that. I guess maybe it shows that stereotypes and preconceived ideas about how females "should" act, look, be, etc., are deeply rooted in some women's minds as well.

Best wishes for continued healing. I'll bet listening to music from Riot Grrl bands, or reading some of Kathleen's interviews, etc., is helpful for that. (y) Tori Amos is also great to listen to for a little feminist inspiration.

I'm so grateful for the strong, talented musicians - male and female - who are brave enough to speak out on this topic on behalf of women everywhere. Music is such a powerful vehicle for helping to increase people's awareness and change perceptions, as well as for helping people cope with tough stuff. The Beastie Boys are awesome for recognizing that and doing something about it! (y)

[MsPacMan]

For what it's worth, I don't think being subjected to staring and so-called pick-up lines etc. has nothing to do with whether the man in question finds a woman particularly attractive.
I think it's purely a question of power. The power to make you feel uncomfortable, the power to make you avert your eyes, the power to make you change seats. In essence, the power to intrude into your world and make you acknowledge him and react to him.


Agree wholeheartedly. I only wish I could have expressed that so articulately.

What about machism between women? I personally got a lot of shit from other women!!


Thankyou for bringing that up. Fantastic point. There are PLENTY of men who are totally on OUR side in this discussion; and plenty of WOMEN who sadly AREN’T. It’s not women versus men. It’s equality versus inequality.

Something happened one night with a male co worker. I had such a hard time with it. No matter what someone says, does, acts doesn't give anyone the right to tell them they deserved to be raped.

Sorry. Maybe way too personal, but it feels almost empowering to write that.

Why is it “too personal”? Why should you have to shut up about it? If something SO fucking serious happened to you; you have the right to talk about it any time you want. Especially if it makes you feel “empowered” to do so.

If it makes people feel awkward, all we gotta do is quote our boy Adrock again:

“……..weird thing to say; here it goes: TOUGH TITTY!”

If we get hassled, or beaten, or raped; are we just supposed to cry discreetly in the privacy of our bathrooms, wash our faces, plaster on our fake smiles and confine ourselves to talking about shoes and hair ribbons and tea parties?

Is it un-ladylike for us to bring up confronting topics in polite conversation? Well, I beg your fucking pardon.

Nobody’s forcing anyone to participate in this thread. Are you worried it might make some people feel uncomfortable, to read what you’ve said?

Let us reference Kathleen again:

“I'm SO SORRY if I'm alienating some of you.
Your WHOLE FUCKING CULTURE alienates ME.”

Adam didn’t worry about alienating people when he wrote “Song For The Man”, or “Save This For Davis”. He wasn’t concerned about making people feel uncomfortable that night when he stood up at the MTV awards and spoke out against sexual assault. Adam wears his heart on his sleeve and I respect him for that.

So if YOU wanna pour your heart out, girl - you GO RIGHT AHEAD.

And if it makes some people squirm; well; perhaps they need to consider WHY it makes them feel so uncomfortable. Maybe they need to take a stroll through the Hall of Mirrors and take a Good Hard Look at THEMSELVES.

The Beasties consistently manage to address serious social issues while also having crazy-ass fun. Yeah; they bring up domestic violence and terrorism; but they also sing about silly stuff like peanut butter and Mike's hair. In the ONE song; you’ll hear them rap about homophobia and racism; but the in their next line they’re suddenly talking about toilets and toothpaste. And somehow, they make it work. They can be funny AND intelligent at the same time.

This messageboard reflects that.

One day we’ll be killing ourselves laughing; arguing over ridiculous nonsense - like whether Vic Colfari has better fashion sense than Sir Stewart Wallace.

The next day; we’re talking serious shit, and crying while we type. Like THIS thread.

All I’m saying is………….you don’t need to apologise to ANYONE.

Will you be with me on the train tomorrow?

You can count on it!

You’ll be able to spot me. I’ll be the irritatingly self-satisfied young woman sitting next to the pervert in the trench coat. And you’ll be able to hear me telling him the incredible news……..that a Grammy-award winning musician wrote a song JUST FOR HIM……………………………..

[Heather_D]

Thanks, MsP. I just felt may e it was over sharing cos I don't relly know any of you. And yea, I turned to a lot of Riot Grl music after that. I actually think I sang "if you live through this with me I swear that I will die for you...". I know. A Hole song, but still got me through when I couldn't physically fight back. music can be so powerful like that.

[MsPacMan]

Thanks, MsP. I just felt may e itwas over sharing cos I don't relly know any of you.
No thanks needed. Sometimes it’s easier to unload on people you don’t know in “real” life. And anyway; we’re not strangers. Don’t forget what Mike D said about the Lego set!!

……..got me through when I couldn't physically fight back. music can be so powerful like that.
I’m totally hearing you. The day after Yauch died, a user named ludwarf posted something on the board which has been running through my head every day since.

Ludwarf recalled a comment that Adrock made at the end of Ricky’s Theme during a show in Paris:

"…….we spent a great time together tonight. I would like you to remember this time when it's bad or stuff like that……...."

I wonder if Adam has any idea what he’s gotten us through……....what all three of them do for us......every single day……….…..….if only they KNEW.



<3

[MCA4ever]

I'm so sorry that that happened to you, Heather. How awful that someone - especially another woman - responded to you in that manner, when you were sharing that with her. It must have been so difficult for you to confide in her about such a traumatic situation, so getting that reaction must have been absolutely devastating. Obviously, NOTHING justifies that act of violence. I can't imagine what that woman was thinking that made her say that. :mad:

It's so aggravating to me that there are women out there who would believe/say something like that. I guess maybe it shows that stereotypes and preconceived ideas about how females "should" act, look, be, etc., are deeply rooted in some women's minds as well.

Best wishes for continued healing. I'll bet listening to music from Riot Grrl bands, or reading some of Kathleen's interviews, etc., is helpful for that. (y) Tori Amos is also great to listen to for a little feminist inspiration.

I'm so grateful for the strong, talented musicians - male and female - who are brave enough to speak out on this topic on behalf of women everywhere. Music is such a powerful vehicle for helping to increase people's awareness and change perceptions, as well as for helping people cope with tough stuff. The Beastie Boys are awesome for recognizing that and doing something about it! (y)

Ditto to everything here from me as well.

Heather- The idea that another woman said that to you alone, makes me sick. You seem like a terrific person and I am sooo sorry for what you have had to deal with, and what you are dealing with now. Sadly it really is too late for some to change their ways. And as you reminded me, it's not only men.

I can not even pretend to know what you are going through. I have felt the wrath of misogynistic attitudes from time to time in my life but what you have experienced is so much more than that. It's criminal. I respect the fact that you are not letting him win. You are moving on and talking about it. it may have taken you a really long time to get to this point but your doing it! Whenever you need reassurance that YOU did NOTHING wrong, or just someone to listen, someone is always here. You have come to a perfect place :)

Kate

[MCA4ever]

I think it's purely a question of power. The power to make you feel uncomfortable, the power to make you avert your eyes, the power to make you change seats. In essence, the power to intrude into your world and make you acknowledge him and react to him.

Just my two cents.

I think suggesting that these creeps are purely getting off on some sort of empowerment trip on any sort of intellectual level is giving them too much credit. I think it is very rare that when these things are occurring, their goal is anything more than the obvious.

[TreasureEverywh]

I think suggesting that these creeps are purely getting off on some sort of empowerment trip on any sort of intellectual level is giving them too much credit. I think it is very rare that when these things are occurring, their goal is anything more than the obvious.

I agree that it's unlikely to be a conscious or intellectual strategy, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not real. Plus, I think it's clear to everyone that being creepy it isn't a successful approach, and it seems to me that your use of the word "creep" above underlines that there is a difference: someone who flirts with you because they find you attractive and on the offchance they get lucky behaves differently.

This might still be my eternally naive outlook on the world talking. Neither am I the target of such behaviour very often nor am I in one of those guys' minds (thank God on both counts!), so I could be way off. The other night, though, I got the distinct impression that the entire spiel was _all_ about making me squirm and be uncomfortable.

[TreasureEverywh]

When I got up the courage to confide in another coworker her exact words were: Don't you think you deserved it?

:eek:
That's sort of just stuck with me. I know it's not good & I've been dealing wit it for many years. No matter what someone says, does, acts doesn't give anyone the right to tell them they deserved to be raped



Wow. I'm so sorry to read this -- both parts of your horrible experience --, and I would just like to echo what others have said. You _have_ come to the right place, I think. Wishing you lots of strength to deal with this, and hopefully good friends in real life who have more helpful things to say than that snide cow.

[MCA4ever]

I agree that it's unlikely to be a conscious or intellectual strategy, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not real. Plus, I think it's clear to everyone that being creepy it isn't a successful approach, and it seems to me that your use of the word "creep" above underlines that there is a difference: someone who flirts with you because they find you attractive and on the offchance they get lucky behaves differently.

This might still be my eternally naive outlook on the world talking. Neither am I the target of such behaviour very often nor am I in one of those guys' minds (thank God on both counts!), so I could be way off. The other night, though, I got the distinct impression that the entire spiel was _all_ about making me squirm and be uncomfortable.

Forgive me I am not too bright today- summer cold- so I'm not real sure if you took offense to what I had said. Ill probably read this later and realize that is not at all what you thought :)

My only thought on what you had said is that I dont think that it is the "creeps" (being nice but idiots work well too) that get off on empowerment. We are the
ones that "empower" them by letting them make us
feel bad about ourselves. I'm sure for
the most part, they don't even realize that what they do goes any deeper then that.

[TreasureEverywh]

Offense? No, of course not!


We are the ones that "empower" them by letting them make us
feel bad about ourselves.

I agree to some extent... I wasn't sure at the time of the incident (if you even want to call it that) what the best reaction might have been -- both the reaction inside my head and the reaction on display to the guy. So I understand that you're trying to say that we shouldn't let ourselves be made to feel embarrassed by actions that other people should be embarrassed about.

(Still, discussing the matter in these terms may be a dangerous route to go down, and you probably have to phrase what you say very carefully to avoid the interpretation that women are doing something wrong here.)


My only thought on what you had said is that I dont think that it is the "creeps" (being nice but idiots work well too) that get off on empowerment. [...] I'm sure for the most part, they don't even realize that what they do goes any deeper then that.


I think to any man who's not trying this out for the first time it becomes clear very quickly that the reactions are consistently negative and the women feel uncomfortable. Then why continue?

I wonder if we can get some male input here...

[MCA4ever]

Offense? No, of course not!



I agree to some extent... I wasn't sure at the time of the incident (if you even want to call it that) what the best reaction might have been -- both the reaction inside my head and the reaction on display to the guy. So I understand that you're trying to say that we shouldn't let ourselves be made to feel embarrassed by actions that other people should be embarrassed about.

(Still, discussing the matter in these terms may be a dangerous route to go down, and you probably have to phrase what you say very carefully to avoid the interpretation that women are doing something wrong here.)



I think to any man who's not trying this out for the first time it becomes clear very quickly that the reactions are consistently negative and the women feel uncomfortable. Then why continue?

I wonder if we can get some male input here...

I think you maybe describing two different groups of people. I'm sure they intertwine somewhere...
You have your sexist pigs that IMO view women in the lowest form. they think if they chip away at a woman's self respect, they will give into the misogynist. Then you have people who like to intimidate and bully w/o sexual gratification. Those are the types that may have made a 50 year old man or a 17 year old boy squirm and feel uncomfortable. For different reasons. They will use any amo they can against the target individual.

I would think that anyone from either one of those two groups would attack ones self esteem ... But I believe there is a big difference.

(Still, discussing the matter in these terms may be a dangerous route to go down, and you probably have to phrase what you say very carefully to avoid the interpretation that women are doing something wrong here.)


I'm confused- going to take some DaQuil and come back later :)

[gumkojima]

Rape is wrong. Most things in life are not black and white. This one is. Period. However, it is not blaming the victim to say that one should take steps to protect oneself; it’s simply good advice. It doesn’t excuse the crime.

As for harassment, if someone recognizes that they are making someone else feel uncomfortable and they continue to do so, they are in the wrong, especially if there is a power differential of any kind. Ideally one should try to communicate their discomfort explicitly and assertively if for no other reason than some folks simply can’t pick up on social cues. That’s not blaming the victim or excusing the oppressor, it’s just an ideal step to take. It’s not always possible for everyone or every situation.

It’s also useful and loving advice to encourage others to find strength in themselves and to remember that it’s the assholes that have the problem, not you. If you’ve taken all those steps and still experience the problem, learn jujitsu and smack the fuck out ‘em. I’m only half-kidding.

It’s also my take that while folks like Kathleen, the Boys and others have done an excellent job of educating others about this, we will probably never live in a world without assholes, so we have to also take steps to protect ourselves. Thank you Kathleen and the Boys for doing your part, and y’alls part is huge.

I’m not trying to make this simplistic, but I did want my first response to be clear and definitive. I’m sorry that these things happened to you girls. May you all exchange the most potent girl power. This is a great place to do so.

[TreasureEverywh]

@MCA4ever:

Sorry, that was probably not easy to understand because I also tried to be very careful about what I was saying :)

Point being that we should make sure what we're saying is unambiguously, "they are the the assholes with the problem; what can we do to protect ourselves?" (see post above!) and not to give anyone the chance to misinterpret "let's not give them the power over us" as "we have the problem because we're weak" or somesuch.

[MCA4ever]

we have the problem because we're weak" or somesuch.

Again, I really apologize but I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. I get that I must be missing your point here. I think Kathleen Hanna among others, try's to teach women not to be weak. By being weak, we do "empower" these kinds of attitudes.

I definitely think we all agree, what happened to Heather was criminal. No mincing of words there.

[TreasureEverywh]

Not understood once again (cf. Alanis Morissette thread :) )

Again, I really apologize but I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. I get that I must be missing your point here. I think Kathleen Hanna among others, try's to teach women not to be weak. By being weak, we do "empower" these kinds of attitudes.

I definitely think we all agree, what happened to Heather was criminal. No mincing of words there.

Sure, there's no question about that. What I was worried about wasn't what we think, but about what we say being (deliberately) misunderstood by others.

Which is why I'm in two minds about what you write above. On the one hand, yes, absolutely. Let's show the bastards they have no power over us. On the other hand, it's not so easy to do that, and then what about those who find it too hard? What's stopping someone who's not the supportive kind from coming along and saying, "Well, it's your own fault you're feeling shit about being stared at. Why aren't you a stronger person?"

[MCA4ever]

Not understood once again (cf. Alanis Morissette thread :) )



Sure, there's no question about that. What I was worried about wasn't what we think, but about what we say being (deliberately) misunderstood by others.

Which is why I'm in two minds about what you write above. On the one hand, yes, absolutely. Let's show the bastards they have no power over us. On the other hand, it's not so easy to do that, and then what about those who find it too hard? What's stopping someone who's not the supportive kind from coming along and saying, "Well, it's your own fault you're feeling shit about being stared at. Why aren't you a stronger person?"

Not sure if it is so much of what we say but what we DON'T say that gets misunderstood. If you remember, I was one of the ones that came to your defense-so to speak- in that other thread :)

Sometimes we leave ourselves open to misinterpretation. I'm kind of simple. I don't always get the "between the lines stuff" on here. I would like to think though that I am reasonably intelligent on stuff like this and if I am missing the point, I like being set straight :) nothing that I said even remotely meant that "we" should feel bad about ourselves in any of the mentioned situations.

[TreasureEverywh]

Not sure if it is so much of what we say but what we DON'T say that gets misunderstood. If you remember, I was one of the ones that came to your side in that other thread :)


Quite right.


Sometimes we leave ourselves open to misinterpretation. I'm kind of simple. I don't always get the "between the lines stuff" on here. I would like to think though that I am reasonably intelligent on stuff like this and if I am missing the point, I like being set straight :) nothing that I said even remotely meant that "we" should feel bad about ourselves in any of the mentioned situations.

I know you didn't, and no reasonable person would think so. It's just that not everyone is reasonable (hence the "deliberately misunderstand"), and words can get twisted very easily.

I don't know, maybe I'm the only one who sees the possible negative interpretation, and I'm creating problems where there aren't any. But the fact that I had that thought probably means that there are people of a nastier disposition than me who would definitely have it, too.

Anyway, I should probably call it a day now. Hopefully back tomorrow.

[MCA4ever]

It’s also useful and loving advice to encourage others to find strength in themselves and to remember that it’s the assholes that have the problem, not you. If you’ve taken all those steps and still experience the problem, learn jujitsu and smack the fuck out ‘em. I’m only half-kidding.

Your sweet! Your understanding and kind words are greatly appreciated. I particularly like the "smack the fuck out of them" part :D that's always my first thought!

[Heather_D]

Thank you all for your support. It's been 12 years since it's happened. I have realized, saddly, just recently that I am not at fault. I had some other stuff happen as a child, and I used to take my co worker's words about "deserving it" to heart. Maybe I did? With this, I let this person, this boy, stay in my life. I would justify it with The reasoning that he made me feel (what I thought) was good about myself. This is so aweful, but you've been nothing but supportive. I let him stay in my life in that way despite what he had done. And despite the fact he had a girlfriend. I felt like I was so great he wanted me over his g/f. Stupid & naive of me. I never had great self esteem & suppose this sort of fed into it, or something.

I'm happy to report, I've gotten over that. About 6 years ago, I met an amazing man & we had the best summer. I can honestly say, of all the places I've been in this world (both physically & emotionally) & of all the people I've ever known (in "real life"), he made me the most happiest (sorry for the grammar). We were only together the summer, but our relationship was based on things it should be based on- not on physicality. We were in an equal partnership- well, if him taking me to see Madonna in Arizona & me taking him for lunch in Harlem are equal. It was fantastic, even though it didn't continue. I still have pictures of our adventures up around my house. I smile when I think about. And it's good to do that.

I had an idea at work- maybe sums up this thread (which should keep going- would be nice to see male input- I think you're all female). Not to steal from others' ideas, but it just made sense to me to do this (hope I post this right, hope it's readable):

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/htd78/faee18e0.jpg
PWR 2 B-GRLS

[MsPacMan]

I had an idea at work- maybe sums up this thread (which should keep going- would be nice to see male input- I think you're all female). Not to steal from others' ideas, but it just made sense to me to do this (hope I post this right, hope it's readable):

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/htd78/faee18e0.jpg
PWR 2 B-GRLS

PWR 2 Heather!

and……

……….…to all the girls……….

http://t.co/5LrMRmFj

xoxoSarah

(ps. Heather pls email me if you feel comfortable! I wanna talk to u off-list! pwr2mca@gmail.com)

[MsPacMan]

I love this conversation so much. Thankyou to everyone who’s here!

Perhaps the mistake we make is that we try to form a set of rules in our heads. And it makes you crazy – because you end up going in circles.

Each situation is different. The circumstances are different; the perpetrator is different; our reactions as the “victim” are different, depending on who we are and how we’re feeling, on that particular day.

I think the only TRUE mistake we can make is to allow ourselves to feel GUILTY about any of it.

Gumkojima is so correct in saying that we can take sensible precautions; but sadly he (I’m sorry; I’m guessing you’re a “he”?) is also correct when he says that no matter what we do; there are always gonna be people who have sinister intent. And most likely, we’ll all come across them eventually.

If you ARE able to muster up the courage to stand up and say something; then I reckon you’re very brave and should be commended for doing so. But if you DON’T react in that way; it doesn’t mean you’re weak.

If you fail to stand up to someone who’s hassling you; you haven’t let anybody down. You only need to do what feels comfortable for YOU.

If you look back and wish you’d reacted differently………..honey - give yourself a break!

Some people are able to remain unaffected when something upsetting happens to them. They can shake it off. Good for them. But if you DO burst into tears because it has hurt you, it doesn’t mean you FAILED. You’re allowed to be upset.

You haven’t “let him win”. You haven’t allowed him to “take control”.

YOU have won. Because you made it through the day. It wasn’t easy. But you MADE IT, girl!

We DON’T have to examine/evaluate/pick apart every single goddamn thing we do. We don’t have to answer to anybody.

All we have to do is remind ourselves that we have the right to be respected. How we choose to fight for that right changes daily. CHOICE is the key. And SELF-respect is important, too!

What is the point of castigating ourselves for not reacting in a different way? There’s nothing we can do to change it now. We can only do our BEST. That’s all we can do. You do the best you can; with the emotional resources you have at the time. Judging other people for reacting differently to you only creates more division, hurt and resentment.

(I’m not suggesting anyone in this thread is being judgmental. Quite the opposite. It’s been a relief not to have to deal with shit-stirrers who deliberately twist people’s words and misinterpret every single comment we make. They appear to be absent from this thread.)

The only aspect of this discussion that I would react against is the “kick his ass” type of comment. I’m not interested in ass-kicking. I believe that violence is the last refuge of the impoverished mind.

I can feel powerful without resorting to aggression. Reacting physically (other than in direct self-defense, when there’s simply no other option) would only bring me down to their level.

I’m better than that.

Rather than “kick his ass”; I would rather tell him to kiss mine.

You know what? I’m gonna let Adam tell you what I mean……….

When so many men ease on down the road
and you always have to walk the righteous path
under a magnifying glass
Tell all those guys to kiss your ass,
because you GOT IT going ON!

(Ahhhhhhhhh. THAT right there? That’s why he’s the King of all kings.)

thanks Adam…..……… <3333333333

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqN1NkcGXvE

[b-grrrlie]

……….…to all the girls……….

http://t.co/5LrMRmFj


Totally want that top!!! :eek:

[MsPacMan]

Totally want that top!!! :eek:

Custom-made here: http://www.wordans.com/create-custom-t-shirt
(http://www.wordans.com/create-custom-t-shirt)
Want me to send ya the graphic?

xoxoSarah

[b-grrrlie]

........to all the girls..
http://t.co/5LrMRmFj
.

Totally want that top!!! :eek:
Custom-made here: http://www.wordans.com/create-custom-t-shirt
(http://www.wordans.com/create-custom-t-shirt)
Want me to send ya the graphic?
xoxoSarah
Yeah that would be nice! There's places here in Stocktown where I can make it (or ask my art student friends...).

[MCA4ever]

Ms pacman - I do agree with just about everything you said. There is no generic answer and every situation is different. We are all on the same side here-I think:)

Treasure I am pretty sure I get the gist of what you were saying as well. I think our reasoning maybe a little different. Could it possibly be that you were afraid to really speak your mind because of the occasional "shit-stirrers" on here? I have on occasion rephrased some of my post to remove any ambiguous remarks. And yesterday when posting in response to your comments, I tried to be careful not to say something that you could have taken offense to. However if you worry too much and are too careful it can take away from the point and that is where misinterpretations come in.

Ms pacman the part I dont agree with you on is the ability to kick ass :) I am not a violent person and don't condone violence in any way so thefore would never act on it-guess I should not say never- but have you ever tried to talk and reason with an asshole? Sometimes you feel that there is nothing left to get through and that maybe the only thing some may understand.

So we really are on the same side here. We have to be. I don't think any one of us has the right answers but together we can learn from each other.

I also have to say thank you to our one male poster here. I think it was terrific that he took the time to read each of our post and give us his perspective on it. That right there shows how much sexist attitudes have changed thanks to a few of their favorite compadres Adam, Adam, & Mike.

[Heather_D]

(ps. Heather pls email me if you feel comfortable! I wanna talk to u off-list! pwr2mca@gmail.com)

Sure thing. Just e-mailed you.

[Heather_D]

After reading about not being violent, I had it on my mind for a bit & had to come back & write....

Honestly, no one knows for certain how they will react when put in a situation. We can all say what we would do, but when it comes down to it, you just don't know. Like, I thoguht I was a pretty tough girl. I didn't take verbal crap from anyone at work. You have to have a super thick skin to be in the airline industry. Then it was, like, on this small plane, cornered in an aisle, no escape. He was a bit bigger than me & I knew he could physically over power me. I did scratch & try to get away (kinda playing along and trying to move positions). But at the same time, I was on this plane, with only this guy who was my only way back to the airport offices (the plane was parked- just away from the airport).

And if you do fight back, I don't consider that violence. To me, violence is what is initiated, I.e., pushing someone into a corner. Defending yourself, pushing back, is not violence in my opinion. Sure, if you fight back & you continue fighting after you are out of that vulnerable position, that would be violence in my opinion. If you hit, kick, scratch someone enough to get them away from you- that's not violence.

[MsPacMan]

Ms pacman the part I dont agree with you on is the ability to kick ass :) I am not a violent person and don't condone violence in any way so thefore would never act on it-guess I should not say never- but have you ever tried to talk and reason with an asshole? Sometimes you feel that there is nothing left to get through and that maybe the only thing some may understand.

So we really are on the same side here. We have to be. I don't think any one of us has the right answers but together we can learn from each other.
.

Yeah; I have "tried to reason with an asshole". More than a few! HA! And I stand by what I said originally. It’s just not my style to yell and cuss and lose my temper; to slap someone; or to throw a perfectly good glass of merlot in their face! A whisper can be louder can a scream; so long as it’s telling the truth.

I just want to reference A Tribe Called Quest here:

"You're not any less of a man if you don't pull the trigger.
You're not necessarily a man if you DO."

OK, they said MAN, but it’s a good lesson for us girls, too. I don’t want to sound superior about it; not at all. But I’ve honestly found that the calmer I remain; the better my chance of getting through to a person such as TreasureEverywh’s newest “pal” on the train. That’s just my experience. I totally understand if you have a different perspective. Believe me, dude: I’ve felt your frustration! And I definitely agree that we are all on the same side here, and that we can learn from each other!



After reading about not being violent, I had it on my mind for a bit & had to come back & write....
I did scratch & try to get away .

Oh, Heather, FORGIVE me if I didn’t make that clear enough.

I did say that self-defense DOESN’T COUNT. But I obviously didn’t say it strongly enough.

Let me say it again.

If you are being attacked; all bets are off. You have NO CHOICE. Bite, kick, tear his fucking hair out. In my mind, that doesn’t count as “violence”. That’s called SURVIVAL.

In saying that; there may be situations where a woman feels it’s safer NOT to fight back. That doesn’t mean she’s consented.

As you said; who can possibly predict how you would react?

Either way; it’s an unbearably horrific experience, and a woman’s response is irrelevant. All we can do is support her after the event and reassure her that what happened is IN NO WAY her fault.

I hope we’ve made you feel supported here, girl!



I also have to say thank you to our one male poster here. I think it was terrific that he took the time to read each of our post and give us his perspective on it. That right there shows how much sexist attitudes have changed thanks to a few of their favorite compadres Adam, Adam, & Mike.


(y) YES

MORE BOYS PLEASE

SHOW US SOME LOVE HERE, LADS!

Or disagree with us; whatever. Either way; we want you in the discussion.

[Franci]

After reading about not being violent, I had it on my mind for a bit & had to come back & write....

Honestly, no one knows for certain how they will react when put in a situation. We can all say what we would do, but when it comes down to it, you just don't know. Like, I thoguht I was a pretty tough girl. I didn't take verbal crap from anyone at work. You have to have a super thick skin to be in the airline industry. Then it was, like, on this small plane, cornered in an aisle, no escape. He was a bit bigger than me & I knew he could physically over power me. I did scratch & try to get away (kinda playing along and trying to move positions). But at the same time, I was on this plane, with only this guy who was my only way back to the airport offices (the plane was parked- just away from the airport).

And if you do fight back, I don't consider that violence. To me, violence is what is initiated, I.e., pushing someone into a corner. Defending yourself, pushing back, is not violence in my opinion. Sure, if you fight back & you continue fighting after you are out of that vulnerable position, that would be violence in my opinion. If you hit, kick, scratch someone enough to get them away from you- that's not violence.


How awful... :(

You shouldn't ever feel guilty for fighting back, even if the attacker gets injured it's not your fault, it's his fault... because he put himself in that position.

hugs*

[MsPacMan]

How awful... :(

You shouldn't ever feel guilty for fighting back, even if the attacker gets injured it's not your fault, it's his fault... because he put himself in that position.

hugs*

Agreed. You shouldn't feel guilty for ANY of it.

I know sometimes it's easy to feel embarrassed/humiliated/ashamed; which is why we wanna offer you our strongest reassurance that you did NOTHING wrong. (I'm not saying YOU feel this way, girl; but if you or anyone reading this DOES; I'd like them to know that they're gonna find support here.

Actually; it's occured to me that there might be many people reading this who have also been through something like what we've been discussing.

Male AND female.

If you don't feel ready to join our conversation; we totally understand; but I want you to know that whatever we're saying to Heather applies to YOU, too! You have our love and support.

If you feel like you wanna talk privately; I'm always here to listen. And I promise not to give advice unless you ask for it!

My name is Sarah: mspacman723@gmail.com

I think I should add a link here; because as much as I'd like to help; I'm hardly a professional.

http://www.rainn.org/get-help/sexual-assault-and-rape-international-resources

Stand together, y'all.

[Heather_D]

Sorry Sarah that I misread your statement on violence.

Ditto goes for me, if anyone has questions, PM me & we can e mail or AOL (does anyone use that anymore- I haven't been on a forum in ages).
As I e mailed Sarah earlier, I'm willing to share Pretty much anything. I wear my heart on my sleeve, nothing to hide from y'all.

I didn't seek help through any resources, but I was referred to RAIN. I was fortunate enough to be able to eventually work it out on my own. It took a long time, but I figure I'm still here.

Power 2 Everyone Here

[JoLovesMCA]

Sarah I think you missed your calling in life! You should have been a therapist! ;)

[MsPacMan]

Sorry Sarah that I misread your statement on violence.

I'm willing to share Pretty much anything. I wear my heart on my sleeve, nothing to hide from y'all.



No apology necessary. I should have made myself clearer in the first place. I'm very relieved you weren't offended!

I think it's brilliant that you're comfortable about opening your heart to us. You really are an inspiration. (y)


Sarah I think you missed your calling in life! You should have been a therapist! ;)

Thanks girl. I might consider going down that route if my career as a internationally acclaimed rapper doesn't work out.

(It might still happen! IT MIGHT!!!!!!!!..........no?..........aw crap. But I sound so GOOD in my car!!!!!!!!!!!! Sometimes the other drivers APPLAUD!!!)

;)

[Heather_D]

Sarah, I sent you a New picture. I hope you got it.

And don't give up on your dream of being an international superstar! I was rapping along to Too Many Rappers yesterday & my coworker asked if I was talking to someone or "singing.". I think I'll keep my day job though!

[MsPacMan]

Sarah, I sent you a New picture. I hope you got it.


YEP! I love them! Thankyou so much! I emailed you.


And don't give up on your dream of being an international superstar!

lol - I was being sarcastic! Terrible habit we have in Australia!

:D

[MCA4ever]

Heather- I also apologize about my smacking the shit out of some- remarks. Unfortunately my point wasn't for self defense purposes. I know that is wrong and I need to be more tolerant of ignorance. I am working on that :) I also don't want to give you or anyone else the impression that I go around assaulting people either. I am not at all violent. These are just thoughts or urges that I have In my head when reasoning is out the window, so to speak.

Ms. Pacman, you would make an excellent therapist but you might have me laughing so hard, I may forget the reason I was there :D

But all jokes and martial arts references aside- you have people here to talk to or just an ear when you need it. Maybe an occasional laugh or two :)

[Heather_D]

Just an occasional laugh? ***Storms out & slams door**

Just kidding. I love to laugh & make other people laugh (I hope that's what I do anyway)

Should get back on topic, though. I was so ready for a snarky comment yesterday at work. I wore a dress (I'm pretty conservative- knee length) & I have gotten "cat calls" before when I've gone out for my lunch break. I was all prepared not to take it & it never happened. Good thing for the people too :D

[MsPacMan]

I also don't want to give you or anyone else the impression that I go around assaulting people either. I am not at all violent.


What?

WAIT........

..................so that's NOT you, at 1:31? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Naf5uJYGoiU

;)

[MCA4ever]

What?

WAIT........

..................so that's NOT you, at 1:31? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Naf5uJYGoiU

;)

Man- Stuck in traffic and my phone won't open the Video- I'm gonna keep trying though :)

Heather don't you hate when your all ready for someone to start with you- and they don't! Just think, the next time it happens they won't be catching you off guard!

Have a nice day everyone!

[WhoMoi?]

……….…to all the girls……….

http://t.co/5LrMRmFj



That's great! Would you mind sending it to me as well?

[MsPacMan]

That's great! Would you mind sending it to me as well?

Sure girl; join the posse!

Email me! mspacman723@gmail.com

xoxoSarah

[Heather_D]

Man- Stuck in traffic and my phone won't open the Video- I'm gonna keep trying though :)

Heather don't you hate when your all ready for someone to start with you- and they don't! Just think, the next time it happens they won't be catching you off guard!

Have a nice day everyone!


Hey! Wait! You're in PA. It's illegal to check your phone here now. Even for awesome stuff. :D
I kid, of course.
Honestly, I'm glad I didn't cross any paths today cos my mouth may have gotten me in trouble!

Ever since I've seen the movie Ted, I've been super snippy with my replies. I dunno what it is. Something about Marky Mark & a talking teddy bear & I get an attitude.

[MCA4ever]

Hey! Wait! You're in PA. It's illegal to check your phone here now. Even for awesome stuff. :D
I kid, of course.
Honestly, I'm glad I didn't cross any paths today cos my mouth may have gotten me in trouble!

Ever since I've seen the movie Ted, I've been super snippy with my replies. I dunno what it is. Something about Marky Mark & a talking teddy bear & I get an attitude.

I live in Pa, work in Jersey and my husband works in NY. I live where all 3 meet. If it were not for the Welcome To... I wouldn't know where I was half the time :)

Sarah, I never could open that video. I'm sure it is some lunatic spazzing out ;)

Great, my 16 year old wants to see Ted this weekend. Just what she needs, some more tips on being snippy!

[Heather_D]

I would say "H to the ELL No" if I had a 16 year old that wanted to see Ted. Think of it as "Family Guy" with absolutely no limits. I'm not easily offended, but there were parts that made me cringe. Obviously, your decision.

I used to feel the same way when I worked at the airlines- one day, at my home office here. The next, I'd be in Houston, and then I'd be up in Cleveland before going to San Francisco. Just glad the pilot always knew where to go (I should clarify- I was never a flight crew member, trolly dolly. I worked at the airport. Putting bags on the planes & taking tickets.

[fonky pizza]

What if it was a "beastie boy" that made you feel bad? Because it's when we really love someone we look up for that we can get really hurt.

I mean, the typical macho perv in a trench coat is there everyday, it's fucking annoying, it's tiring, depressing but it's not personal, it's a general attitude that has no right to continue but it doesn't touch me so much personally. Unfortunately the salivating macho attitude turns out to be totally abusive and can be dangerous, sadly so many women have been abused by strangers.
But what i'd like to discuss here with you is when you get totally disillusioned by someone you like and trust.

What when your husband turns out to be complete freak? Was I wrong to trust my feelings? I thought this guy was cool but he's just horrible? Is loving letting a door open to be abused?

[MCA4ever]

But what i'd like to discuss here with you is when you get totally disillusioned by someone you like and trust.

What when your husband turns out to be complete freak? Was I wrong to trust my feelings? I thought this guy was cool but he's just horrible? Is loving letting a door open to be abused?

The sad thing there is considering the alternative. Not trusting yourself to be able to open yourself up to loving anyone. I think it's ok to use caution when trusting our feelings sometimes.

It's my belief that you never really know someone until you have lived with them for at least two years :)

[fonky pizza]

Not trusting yourself to be able to open yourself up to loving anyone.

Hell no! This is very common and works in the theory world vs the practical world.

Like, it's always the women's fault! All the weight is charged on women's shoulders whatever the situation is.

Like if we are not self confident enough, we are not going to be loved?

but it's when you have a hard time that you need your friends affection and being loved can help a person restore your confidence.

The BS2000 line in "Save this for Davis" is the line I have been witnessing the most.

[fonky pizza]

When so many men ease on down the road
and you always have to walk the righteous path
under a magnifying glass
Tell all those guys to kiss your ass,
because you GOT IT going ON!

yes, that one!!!!!!!:mad:

[Heather_D]

What if it was a "beastie boy" that made you feel bad? Because it's when we really love someone we look up for that we can get really hurt.

What when your husband turns out to be complete freak? Was I wrong to trust my feelings? I thought this guy was cool but he's just horrible? Is loving letting a door open to be abused?

Valid point, but if you never open open up, then you miss out on so much. Sure, i would be disappointed if one of the guys turned out to be a jerk. Depending on the situation, it would be hard to predict my feelings toward them.

When I was a child, someone in my family- a cousin- hurt me. I was so young at the time, I didn't know what he did was wrong. I think after a few years, I on my own figured out it wasn't right I remember being cornered by him in a closet and he had one arm up & went to put his face to mine. I quickly ducked under & got out. I think that was the last time. But it really did crap to my head & heart. Here was someone, I felt, obligated to love me cos he was family. Couple that with being so young, and not knowing it was wrong was a disaster. Even though I went through that shit & the shit when I was older, I sort of haven't lost hope. I've learned from my pain. I've learned what I want in a partner. I've learned how I shouldn't be treated. I've learned how to be strong & walk away when someone hurts me. I've learned I'm stronger than I ever could have believed.

I guess it's just if I close myself off, I could miss out on so much. I try not to have regrets, but I do. As I said to Sarah in an e mail, the only regret you should ever have is the time you spent having regrets.

And, yeah, strangers doing crappy stuff like cat calls & such probably won't stop. But our feelings of being viewed as "objects" can be changed. We just have to know its happening, be strong, & not even give them a look.

[MsPacMan]

What if it was a "beastie boy" that made you feel bad? Because it's when we really love someone we look up for that we can get really hurt.

.......what i'd like to discuss here with you is when you get totally disillusioned by someone you like and trust.

What when your husband turns out to be complete freak? Was I wrong to trust my feelings? I thought this guy was cool but he's just horrible? Is loving letting a door open to be abused?

Thankyou so much for bringing this up.

The guy in the trench-coat that I referred to is definitely a stereotype. I’m really glad you introduced this disturbing aspect of sexual harassment/assault into the discussion.

Being abused by a person you trust opens up a whole other can of worms.

If it’s your father, uncle, priest, coach, older brother, etc, etc; you’re in an impossible situation. You don’t know whether to “tell on him”. You don’t want to break apart your family; you don’t want to create division in your community; you’re afraid no-one will believe you, anyway.

In some cases, you’re too little to understand what’s happening to you; or perhaps you might think it was somehow your fault. You have this completely screwed-up definition of intimacy, and this can lead you into destructive relationships (even into adulthood).

And then there’s abuse by your partner. How fucking humiliating. The person who you’ve CHOSEN to be with. Now you have to go and tell all your friends he’s a wife-beater? When you’ve done nothing but gush about how gorgeous he is? You’ll look like a fool.

And WORST of all; it makes you doubt your instincts:

“All that time that I was trusting him? Was any of it real?”

“How much of it was bullshit? How much was genuine?”

“Was all the nice stuff he said just his way of manipulating me?”

“Does that mean he WASN’T in love with me?”

“Does that mean I’m not worthy of love?”

“Am I stupid for not knowing he was lying?”

“If I didn’t realise HE was faking it; who ELSE might be manipulating me RIGHT NOW?”

“Whom can I ever REALLY trust? How will I know for SURE, if I was SO WRONG about HIM?”

How do we know who to trust?

The trust issue is BIG ONE. And guess what? Adam UNDERSTANDS that.

Have a look at the SECOND verse of “Save This For Davis”. It's the one that moves me the MOST.

He has spent the whole song telling us to be ourselves, to do whatever makes us feel happy and fulfilled; and that he accepts us just the way we are.

If you were already won over; wait til you hear THIS:

“I know I got a long way to grow and show and prove….”

Despite everything he’s already said, the guy still doesn’t consider himself to be an evolved person. He’s admits he’s still got a lot to learn, and he wants to do better.

“It's just I love you so……”

Translation?
You mean a great deal to me. I want you to understand how much I respect you. Whatever I have to do, to be worthy of you, I will do. Because you’re worth the effort.

“I know it's so hard to trust

Believe

when you've heard the same words over again.”

You have every reason in the world not to trust me. I can only imagine the bullshit that other guys have put you through.

Everything they’ve done? I will try my best not to do. I know those guys probably said that to you, too - and then they broke your heart.

So if you choose to believe ME, you’re opening yourself up to get hurt again. I acknowledge the risk you’re taking.
But I really, really hope you think I’m worth it.



<33333333333333333333

BEST. SONG. EVER.

Great job, Adam. Thankyou.

[Heather_D]

You got it spot on, Sarah. I would like to add, having the experiences I have, it can be difficult for me to trust males. Sometimes, I get apprehensive about thier motives. I'm always looking for ways that they may be using me. I guess it comes down to not wanting to get hurt.

I over analyze things all the time. I constantly think about solutions to situations that haven't even occurred. Sometimes, it's OK to do that, but I know I get stressed over it. At this point, I expect to be hurt. Shit like I've been through has probably messed me up for the rest of my life. And I know I could've gotten help, but it comes down to feeling that people won't believe you, and, as Sarah said, not tearing your family apart. In some stupid way, what happened to me at the airport, I didn't want to "tell" because of what my coworker said & I guess I had this feeling that I would destroy this boy's life. How considerate.:rolleyes: I've been having good days and bad days lately, but I don't reflect on it as much as I used to. Writing here has definitely helped.

[FlechaRojo]

I have to say I really appreciate this thread. I'm sorry for anyone who has been subjected to such behavior. There are some incredibly remarkable women on this BBS. I'm dealing with a stalking situation right now that I can't really go into, but one of the things that helps me feel empowered (and comforted) is music from the likes of people such as the BBoys. It helps me remain grounded and remember that I have good men in my life. Men like my dad taught me how to rely on my intuition and use it to know whether a situation is harmless or if harm will come to me.

Plus, I may not know karate, but I know craaazy! :p

P.S. So unbelievably funny - Song For The Man just came up on my ipod, lmao! Yep, this universe is pure energy.

[Heather_D]

Sorry to hear you're going through something so aweful. Glad you are being strong too. And I've found now that "Somg for the Man" comes o. At ironic times for me too. It's as if someone is sending a message to just be strong & don't let pigs dominate your thoughts or feelings.

[MsPacMan]

I have to say I really appreciate this thread. I'm sorry for anyone who has been subjected to such behavior. There are some incredibly remarkable women on this BBS.

Agreed. I have gotten a lot out of this thread.

We need more blokes in the discussion, though. Where are ya, bad boys? ;)

I'm dealing with a stalking situation right now that I can't really go into

Please email anytime if you need to talk. I'm not qualified to give advice but I am always happy to listen.

If you need support, you have come to the right place!

:)

[Heather_D]

We need more blokes in the discussion, though. Where are ya, bad boys? ;)

Agree about that. Maybe they think it's some super feminist anti male hate we're spewing here. Obviously, not the case. I was also thinking maybe some feel guilty, if they've treated women poorly before. It's OK. The important thing is to learn how it affects people & learn to respect thier feelings.

[MsPacMan]

Maybe they think it's some super feminist anti male hate we're spewing here.

I wonder if you’re right? That would be a shame.

People often misinterpret me when I say I’m a feminist. Does this happen to you? “Feminist” is not a synonym for “man-hater”. Feminism means that women are equal to men. One gender is not stronger/better/smarter than the other.

Some of the most sexist people I have ever met have been women. Some of the most open-minded have been men.

maybe some feel guilty, if they've treated women poorly before. It's OK. The important thing is to learn how it affects people & learn to respect thier feelings.

Yeah – I agree that it’s not an issue. That’s the past. If a dude is willing to open his mind to change, I have an tremendous amount of respect for him.

"Continued evolution of an individual"

[MCA4ever]

Plus, I may not know karate, but I know craaazy! :p



:D

I am so sorry that you are going through this. That asshole should be very afraid! He has no idea what we are capable of when put to the test :)

[Heather_D]

I wonder if you’re right? That would be a shame.

People often misinterpret me when I say I’m a feminist. Does this happen to you? “Feminist” is not a synonym for “man-hater”.

. If a dude is willing to open his mind to change, I have an tremendous amount of respect for him.

"Continued evolution of an individual"

I've never ever thoguht of myself as a feminist & I wouldn't use the word to describe me. I do believe everyone is equal & should be treated as such. So, if that's the what a feminist is, then I guess I am.

And, pretty much all my life I've had more guy friends than girl friends. Don't know how it worked out that way. I just always felt (probably wrongly) that girls were more judgmental & catty & two faced. There was no drama with the guys I had in my life.

[WhoMoi?]

I've never ever thoguht of myself as a feminist & I wouldn't use the word to describe me. I do believe everyone is equal & should be treated as such. So, if that's the what a feminist is, then I guess I am.



I perceived you as a feminist, based on this discussion. Really, I perceive any woman that supports herself financially (or who CAN do that), votes, has her male counterpart share in household duties, thinks women shouldn't have to put up with gender-specific acts of disrespect, (etc., etc.!) as a feminist - as well as any man who supports those ideas. Or if you don't like labels, one can say that they "support feminism." :)

Any woman who votes and/or is able to support herself financially without a man's help is utilizing rights that feminists fought for - so I guess anyone who fits that profile is living in a way that supports the feminist ideal, and results from the feminist movement.

Like Sarah said, being a feminist just means you support women having equal rights and being respected, etc. Unfortunately the word "feminist" seems to have picked up a negative connotation somewhere along the line...not sure exactly why, but I'd guess it would have had to do with either:

1. some particular women doing something not-so-awesome in the name of feminism at some point in time. OR

2. maybe just some men back in the day were intimidated by the feminist movement and/or didn't like the ideals behind it, and a vibe of "feminists are crazy manhaters" started from there.

Related to #2: I thought it was interesting in the DaVinci Code (the book, not the movie) how there was that whole discussion about how women were held in high esteem in paganism, because of their fertility...and how the male-dominated aspects of Christianity were created as a backlash against that. I know that that book was a work of fiction, so I'm not sure if that part was historically accurate in terms of the reason for Christanity's male-dominated themes...but I just found it really interesting and it made me wonder.

Related to #1: It's unfortunate when a good cause gets a bad rep because of something negative associated with it. For example, I support animal rights, which is PETA's cause, but some of PETA's over-the-top past tactics have given some people a negative perception of animal rights supporters in general. :( It's a shame when that happens, because it can hurt a really good cause.

[Heather_D]

Totally agree about PETA. And Greenpeace used to pull crazy stunts (I don't know if they still do).

I guess I just always viewed a feminist as in bra burners & pants wearers. Like, they weren't accepting of thier femininity. Pretty skewed reading this, now. I guess, too, sometimes I don't like labels. Like, that "alternative" music discussion. And I loathed the Gen X label we were given. Maybe, for me, it goes back to religion & not agreeing with aspects of it, instead finding things I believe in, regardless of what others think.

[fonky pizza]

Thankyou so much for bringing this up.

The guy in the trench-coat that I referred to is definitely a stereotype. I’m really glad you introduced this disturbing aspect of sexual harassment/assault into the discussion.

Being abused by a person you trust opens up a whole other can of worms.

If it’s your father, uncle, priest, coach, older brother, etc, etc; you’re in an impossible situation. You don’t know whether to “tell on him”. You don’t want to break apart your family; you don’t want to create division in your community; you’re afraid no-one will believe you, anyway.

In some cases, you’re too little to understand what’s happening to you; or perhaps you might think it was somehow your fault. You have this completely screwed-up definition of intimacy, and this can lead you into destructive relationships (even into adulthood).

And then there’s abuse by your partner. How fucking humiliating. The person who you’ve CHOSEN to be with. Now you have to go and tell all your friends he’s a wife-beater? When you’ve done nothing but gush about how gorgeous he is? You’ll look like a fool.

And WORST of all; it makes you doubt your instincts:

“All that time that I was trusting him? Was any of it real?”

“How much of it was bullshit? How much was genuine?”

“Was all the nice stuff he said just his way of manipulating me?”

“Does that mean he WASN’T in love with me?”

“Does that mean I’m not worthy of love?”

“Am I stupid for not knowing he was lying?”

“If I didn’t realise HE was faking it; who ELSE might be manipulating me RIGHT NOW?”

“Whom can I ever REALLY trust? How will I know for SURE, if I was SO WRONG about HIM?”

How do we know who to trust?

The trust issue is BIG ONE. And guess what? Adam UNDERSTANDS that.

Have a look at the SECOND verse of “Save This For Davis”. It's the one that moves me the MOST.

He has spent the whole song telling us to be ourselves, to do whatever makes us feel happy and fulfilled; and that he accepts us just the way we are.

If you were already won over; wait til you hear THIS:

“I know I got a long way to grow and show and prove….”

Despite everything he’s already said, the guy still doesn’t consider himself to be an evolved person. He’s admits he’s still got a lot to learn, and he wants to do better.

“It's just I love you so……”

Translation?
You mean a great deal to me. I want you to understand how much I respect you. Whatever I have to do, to be worthy of you, I will do. Because you’re worth the effort.

“I know it's so hard to trust

Believe

when you've heard the same words over again.”

You have every reason in the world not to trust me. I can only imagine the bullshit that other guys have put you through.

Everything they’ve done? I will try my best not to do. I know those guys probably said that to you, too - and then they broke your heart.

So if you choose to believe ME, you’re opening yourself up to get hurt again. I acknowledge the risk you’re taking.
But I really, really hope you think I’m worth it.



<33333333333333333333

BEST. SONG. EVER.

Great job, Adam. Thankyou.

Thanks for your posts Miss Pac Man and all of you(y)

[FlechaRojo]

WOW! Thank you all for your kindness :D

Everything is under control, but I have to keep one eyebrow raised, particularly near my home. I'm not pro-NRA by any means, but we have handy tools around such as my protective dog and a fishbat (plus, yes, a couple of "metal"). Also three cops live in my cul-de-sac. We're cool.

[Heather_D]

WOW! Thank you all for your kindness :D

.

That's what we're here for. I'm glad to hear you are prepared & you know who to turn to in your neighborhood. I hope, though, that you don't have to use any of that.

On a much lighter note, I found this today. Somewhat relevant- 50 Most Searched Women

http://Abcnews.go.com/Technology/50-popular-women-web-google-search-results/t/story?id=10573331

Check out #7. Equality :cool:

[WhoMoi?]

On a much lighter note, I found this today. Somewhat relevant- 50 Most Searched Women

http://Abcnews.go.com/Technology/50-popular-women-web-google-search-results/t/story?id=10573331

Check out #7. Equality :cool:


#7 definitely got an LOL from me. :)

#9 - Blah. It's no wonder that sexist ideas still exist in our society when we have women like Paris Hilton being glorified for just being wealthy, attention-seeking, vapid, and contributing nothing to society. Thanks, Paris. :(

[Heather_D]

I didn't even get past #7. :D

[Heather_D]

Oddly enough, this was e first place I thought to come to...

Someone on Facebook sent me a friend request. I thoguht I might've talked to them last week in NYC. I sent a message to see if I knew him. He asked me where I got my OScope t shirt I wore. I told him & suddenly, I was like, "blocked" or something (defriended & unable to send messages). Then toay, I got another message asking if I had a coupon. :confused:

Me
"Ummm...I don't want to be rude or anything, but you sent me a friend request & messages yesterday. I accepted your friend request. You posted on my wall what you asked me here, & then I think you "unfriended" me to the point I couldn't send you a message. Today, you show back up on my friend list & you send me a message looking for a coupon? So, what's really up? I don't think, in this day & age with google & the Internet anyone would just "friend" someone to ask where they got a t shirt. A message would have done. And now a coupon? I've got a $2 off Wisk coupon. And do you go by your middle name cos your dad has the same first name?

This whole thing is randomly odd to me..... Sorry if you think I'm judging you in some way. Just trying to be careful here."

Him
Found it- 1st off I'm new on this shot so ummm I don't know wtf I'm doing. 2nd thought u might have bought the shirt at the OL thought I'd ask b4 I trekked back down there. 3rd wtf does my dad have to do with this? 4-my gf spoke to u for a bit that night & she must have had a few too many cause she thought u were cool 5th- y don't u take that wisk coupon and use it to wash that shit off your potato looking hand. 6- u must be real fucked up that someone asking u where u got a shirt is ODD 7- oscope size stop at XXXXL? Won't b botherin u again

:confused::confused:

This actually made me sad. It's kind of strange how, no matter how tough you try to be or how reasonable or careful, shit like this still hurts.

And maybe I'm stupid or something, but I tried to send a reply to state I am just trying to be careful because of what I've been through. This person told me his first name but said he goes by his middle name- I was trying to make conversation and ask if that was because he shares his dad's name. And he only asked if I had a coupon. I do. I have one for Wisk. Supposed to be funny, but apparently not.
:(

[Hiphopdancer]

Heather,

He sounds like a douche. Just be grateful that his negativity and weirdness can't affect you anymore. Breathe in . . . and let it go. I get where you were going with your comments - but sometimes it's just not worth it.

Side note - weren't all the bartenders wearing O-Scope t-shirts also? Did he FB friend request them as well? Weird. And dumb. Wisk this!

My BF says HI and we enjoyed meeting you and hanging out last Saturday night! Take care!

[Heather_D]

Thanks for making me smile. Tell Frank (right? I can be super bad with names
...) I said hey. :D

Yeah. Pretty much everyone at the bar was wearing Oscope. And there were some other gals there too.

Like, I guess what was the worst for me was that everyone I met was SO nice. I was just taken aback by this...whatever.....

Oh well.

I need to pay more attention to things I quote (on FB, no less): he who angers you controls you.

[MCA4ever]

@Heather D

I've read this like 5 times now heather and it's just weird. Not so weird I guess asking about your shirt but why the hell would he be asking for a coupon :confused: What did he mean by "new on this shot"? Since it was his gf that spoke to you why didn't she ask you where you got the shirt? What did he mean about your hand? He sounds off the wall. You didn't do anything wrong by being cautious. And rightfully so! I hope you unfriended him! Looney toon!

[Heather_D]

Thank you! My hand, I'm sure referred to my picture (one I sent Sarah). I had told him Oscope had a sale, but wasn't sure if stuff was still discounted. Mybe that's what he meant? Anyone that asked me where I got the shirt, I told them. It's not a big secret, I'm sure. I guess, everyone's been so nice up to that point, I was disappointed to find a "bad apple" of a "fan." I definitely know there are bad ones in every bunch & I know the majority here aren't like that at all.

It was kind of nice to come back to this thread & just write it out & get support back. :D

[MsPacMan]

What a delightful young man. I’m sure the good folks at Oscope will be simply thrilled by the thought of this distinguished gent sporting one of their t-shirts.

Heather you are so LUCKY to have formed a new acquaintance! Funnily enough, I made a new “friend” on Facebook last week and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he’s the same dude. (Check your email……..we shall compare notes.)


1st off I'm new on this shot so ummm I don't know wtf I'm doing.


What? New to Facebook? Yeah - so am I, buddy boy. (I find it humiliating that I can still get so baffled by it. Stupid computer, changing my settings without even asking first, makes me feel like a thicky-thicky; grumble, whinge and moan.) Being new to Facebook explains why he might struggle with sending or receiving messages, or “tagging” etc. It does NOT explain why he’s incapable of using basic manners.
Didn’tcha mama teach you: “show some respect?”

This person told me his first name but said he goes by his middle name- I was trying to make conversation and ask if that was because he shares his dad's name.


Yeah, duh. Any reasonable person would totally understand why you asked about his name. It was confusing, that’s all. Geez; he seems a tad slow on the uptake. Or hypersensitive.

2nd thought u might have bought the shirt at the OL thought I'd ask b4 I trekked back down there


If he wants an Oscope shirt so badly, why is he asking YOU?

Y’ver heard of GOOGLE, Amish boy?

5th- y don't u take that wisk coupon and use it to wash that shit off your potato looking hand.


I realised what he meant about “that shit” on your hand straightaway. Nasty. The “grrrl” thing pissed him off. He’s gonna be REALLY mad when he finds out that they’ve made it legal for us to VOTE now.

And he only asked if I had a coupon. I do. I have one for Wisk. Supposed to be funny, but apparently not.


Well, EXCUSE ME. I thought the Wisk thing was hilarious. But alas, Heather; you and I have a very sophisticated taste in humour. We can’t expect mere mortals to keep up with our rapier wit (…...speaking of which: I found another funny dog video - joy!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOzxzZbn07s&feature=related

HOWEVER we’ve got to give Heather’s new “friend” props for his truly excellent numbered list. Boys who make numbered lists really turn me on. Ooooooh baby. (Also boys who alphabetise things, and ones who put all their dairy products on the same shelf in the fridge. IT’S JUST SENSIBLE.)

I hope you unfriended him! Looney toon!

For what it’s worth, I don’t think he’s a fruit loop. I don’t believe this person is a worthless loser (not that any of us accused him of that). Perhaps from his perspective, other people (not Heather) have made him feel like “a loser”; which might explain why he’s lashing out in such an aggressive, senseless fashion.


Him
4-my gf spoke to u for a bit that night & she must have had a few too many cause she thought u were cool 5th- y don't u take that wisk coupon and use it to wash that shit off your potato looking hand. 6- u must be real fucked up that someone asking u where u got a shirt is ODD 7- oscope size stop at XXXXL?


What we have here, ladies and gentlemen, is classic RAGE. Do you agree?


Rage = anger + helplessness.

I don’t know WHY he’s angry. (It isn’t Heather who made him angry.) But obviously he hasn’t been able to find a suitable outlet for his anger; which makes him feel helpless – and the rage exploded when he found a suitable candidate for his tirade of abuse (note how he chose NOT to harass you at the bar on the weekend when he was surrounded by witnesses; he waited until he was safely behind his computer screen).

Heather was simply in the wrong place in the wrong time.


This actually made me sad. It's kind of strange how, no matter how tough you try to be or how reasonable or careful, shit like this still hurts.


Yeah; it does. It really, really does.

I know it shouldn’t. But it does.

I’d like to be able to not let it affect me. Maybe one day. But for now, if people say hurtful stuff; it hurts me. Even if what they say is untrue or unfair……….it still hurts.

I reckon the ratio is 5:1. For every single nasty thing someone says to you, it takes about five really, really nice compliments before you feel like you can build yourself back up. Which is why I’ve written such a loooooooonnnggg response.

I don’t know why the nasty things linger in your mind. I don’t know why they have more power than the positive stuff. But sometimes they just do.

It doesn’t mean you’re weak, stupid, over-sensitive or that you lack resilience.

It means you’re human.

AND TO THOSE OF YOU READING THIS WHO THINK “come on ladies, you’ve devoted enough time to this prick………if he’s such a loser then surely he’s not worth the effort of even having this discussion?”

Well.

It never hurts to talk things over. And then again. And then some more. There’s no fucking word limit on this messageboard. If you are fed up with our ranting and rambling, nobody’s forcing you to stay here.
Go and watch that dog video instead. (It’s so adorable! He’s wearing SOCKS! tee hee hee!)

xoxoSarah

PS. whoops careful - they are gonna send us to the “NON-BEASTIE-RELATED-DISCUSSION-THREAD”!!!

We must act quickly!

My favourite canine-related-Beastie-lyric is “Roberta Peterson's got a spine like a dinosaur”! WHAT’S YOURS???

SEE? We’re discussin’ the Beastie Boys.

Yes we ARE.

(Don’t you think it was clever of me to put that part in bold? Crafty. Thatz what it was.)

[Heather_D]

I love you, Sarah!

I am over it. The dog video was awesome. My own dog does the same thing when she has to wear socks or doggie boots.

Back to Beastie Boys. I immediately started running the lyrics to "Song for the Man" in my head when I read one of his messages. That's what made me come
here. I knew I'd feel better after writing it out, and I knew I'd get positive feedback.

The one thing I was thinking about while rerunning the lyrics was that it shouldn't be titled with "man." It's not men they're talking about in the song. It's not men we're talking about here. Men don't do that type of stuff. Just so it's not like I'm hating here, I got a really nice private message from a man here that basically said "Sorry for that idiot.". Someone totally uninvolved & didn't have to send or say anything. Awesome!
I don't know if there is a word to substitute. I'd say pig, but that's just an insult to the animal. I'd say boy, but boys can be better mannered than that. Not to mention our favorite lads are known as boys. I'm not sure if a word exists for that type of...thing..

[MCA4ever]

I got a really nice private message from a man here that basically said "Sorry for that idiot.". Someone totally uninvolved & didn't have to send or say anything. Awesome!

Im so glad that he made you feel better. Especially coming from another man.

[LilTreyR]

Oddly enough, this was e first place I thought to come to...

Someone on Facebook sent me a friend request. I thoguht I might've talked to them last week in NYC. I sent a message to see if I knew him. He asked me where I got my OScope t shirt I wore. I told him & suddenly, I was like, "blocked" or something (defriended & unable to send messages). Then toay, I got another message asking if I had a coupon. :confused:

Me
"Ummm...I don't want to be rude or anything, but you sent me a friend request & messages yesterday. I accepted your friend request. You posted on my wall what you asked me here, & then I think you "unfriended" me to the point I couldn't send you a message. Today, you show back up on my friend list & you send me a message looking for a coupon? So, what's really up? I don't think, in this day & age with google & the Internet anyone would just "friend" someone to ask where they got a t shirt. A message would have done. And now a coupon? I've got a $2 off Wisk coupon. And do you go by your middle name cos your dad has the same first name?

This whole thing is randomly odd to me..... Sorry if you think I'm judging you in some way. Just trying to be careful here."

Him
Found it- 1st off I'm new on this shot so ummm I don't know wtf I'm doing. 2nd thought u might have bought the shirt at the OL thought I'd ask b4 I trekked back down there. 3rd wtf does my dad have to do with this? 4-my gf spoke to u for a bit that night & she must have had a few too many cause she thought u were cool 5th- y don't u take that wisk coupon and use it to wash that shit off your potato looking hand. 6- u must be real fucked up that someone asking u where u got a shirt is ODD 7- oscope size stop at XXXXL? Won't b botherin u again

:confused::confused:

This actually made me sad. It's kind of strange how, no matter how tough you try to be or how reasonable or careful, shit like this still hurts.

And maybe I'm stupid or something, but I tried to send a reply to state I am just trying to be careful because of what I've been through. This person told me his first name but said he goes by his middle name- I was trying to make conversation and ask if that was because he shares his dad's name. And he only asked if I had a coupon. I do. I have one for Wisk. Supposed to be funny, but apparently not.
:(

Please don't accuse me of being a sexist jerk because i really do not consider myself one but I just don't see where "song for the man" has anything to do with this. Just don't see it :confused:

If some of you use this song in particular as a crutch to right every wrong in your life, don't you think it will eventually lose its meaning? Yeah this guy is a jerk but I don't think it had anything to do with "men vs. women" Unless I am missing something ???

[paperdali]

Please don't accuse me of being a sexist jerk because i really do not consider myself one but I just don't see where "song for the man" has anything to do with this. Just don't see it

I can't speak for her of course, but it what jumped out at me was that in his complete jackassery of a response, he 1) chose to denigrate her appearance with the whole "potato hand" and 2) more importantly, was gaslighting* her by telling her she was crazy for calling him out (pretty politely) for being a weirdo.

Women get gaslighted pretty often, dudes try to make us believe we are crazy when we're being completely rational in calling out weird or unacceptable behavior, like, "I'm not inappropriate, you're NUTS!" It's so, so, sadly common. So women tend to question their own judgment a lot more than men do.

It's not so much to do with the male gaze/catcalling/street harassment issue raised by Song for the Man, you're right. It just seemed like thread drift to a different social issue women deal with, to me.

*Gaslighting isn't always a familiar term to people. It comes from a film called Gaslight, which was about a husband who wanted to steal his wife's inheritance, so he gradually made her feel like she was going insane so he could have her committed. He started by rigging the gaslight on the stove to periodically flicker. He kept telling her it wasn't happening, that what she actually was seeing and experiencing was all in her head. And so on.

It's a common tactic for dudes to tell women it's all in their heads when they complain about harassment or sexism, or even just state facts like, "you were just a total weirdo on FB, what's going on?" And the response is, OMG YOU ARE CRAZY. So that's gas lighting.

ETA: If some of you use this song in particular as a crutch to right every wrong in your life, don't you think it will eventually lose its meaning?

I don't think it's a crutch as much as it's so rare to hear men call out sexist behavior that it's just a really inspiring thing that reminds us that there are actually quite a lot of men who "get it" or are trying to get it, and so I, and a few other women (and probably men, too!) don't feel so alone.

Was that helpful or did I make it more tangled?

[Heather_D]

Please don't accuse me of being a sexist jerk because i really do not consider myself one but I just don't see where "song for the man" has anything to do with this. Just don't see it :confused:

If some of you use this song in particular as a crutch to right every wrong in your life, don't you think it will eventually lose its meaning? Yeah this guy is a jerk but I don't think it had anything to do with "men vs. women" Unless I am missing something ???

To me, the song is just empowering, no matter what the situation is. I got myself into a dark place with this whole thing yesterday & it probably wasn't so much the song as this thread that's helped before. Songs have different meanings for different people, and there's nothing wrong with that. Music has been important in my life & I do relate things to certain songs. I don't think this is using a song as some sort of crutch. And it's not man versus woman. It's believing everyone should be treated with dignity & respect no matter what. Especially if you don't know someone , as was my case here. I mean, I feel like I did my best to reach out by a cep ting his friend request & answering his questions. It just struck me as odd when I asked him what was up with that that he responded in the manner he did. That wasnt necessary.

[LilTreyR]

I can't speak for her of course, but it what jumped out at me was that in his complete jackassery of a response, he 1) chose to denigrate her appearance with the whole "potato hand" and 2) more importantly, was gaslighting* her by telling her she was crazy for calling him out (pretty politely) for being a weirdo.

Women get gaslighted pretty often, dudes try to make us believe we are crazy when we're being completely rational in calling out weird or unacceptable behavior, like, "I'm not inappropriate, you're NUTS!" It's so, so, sadly common. So women tend to question their own judgment a lot more than men do.

It's not so much to do with the male gaze/catcalling/street harassment issue raised by Song for the Man, you're right. It just seemed like thread drift to a different social issue women deal with, to me.

*Gaslighting isn't always a familiar term to people. It comes from a film called Gaslight, which was about a husband who wanted to steal his wife's inheritance, so he gradually made her feel like she was going insane so he could have her committed. He started by rigging the gaslight on the stove to periodically flicker. He kept telling her it wasn't happening, that what she actually was seeing and experiencing was all in her head. And so on.

It's a common tactic for dudes to tell women it's all in their heads when they complain about harassment or sexism, or even just state facts like, "you were just a total weirdo on FB, what's going on?" And the response is, OMG YOU ARE CRAZY. So that's gas lighting.

ETA:

I don't think it's a crutch as much as it's so rare to hear men call out sexist behavior that it's just a really inspiring thing that reminds us that there are actually quite a lot of men who "get it" or are trying to get it, and so I, and a few other women (and probably men, too!) don't feel so alone.

Was that helpful or did I make it more tangled?

Maybe because I am a guy I just see this as someone being a jerk to someone else. I also THINK I see your point that although this song has nothing to do with this particular situation, the song gives some sense that us guys are trying to understand, right, or totally wrong? I know I have to choose my words carefully here, but not all of us have deviant minds that work like that. It's not really fair to judge all or most men based on behaviors of a few.

[Heather_D]

Maybe because I am a guy I just see this as someone being a jerk to someone else. I also THINK I see your point that although this song has nothing to do with this particular situation, the song gives some sense that us guys are trying to understand, right, or totally wrong? I know I have to choose my words carefully here, but not all of us have deviant minds that work like that. It's not really fair to judge all or most men based on behaviors of a few.

I'm not sure if you're referring to this thread or to what paperdali wrote, but I don't believe anyone that's posted in this has generalized thier experiences to mean all men. As I said in a previous post, I got a message from a male here that basically said "sorry for that idiot.". He didn't have to do that. It wasn't him that wrote that to me. I really appreciated that though. So, yeah, it's good to have some sense that guys are trying to understand. And it's great that you posted here. Always good to see another perspective.

[LilTreyR]

I read this whole thread to try and comprehend where these things are coming from. Can't say I fully understand but there is always something to learn.

[paperdali]

It's not really fair to judge all or most men based on behaviors of a few.

The problem is that it's not a few. After getting your ass grabbed on the train a thousand times, being followed home a hundred times, having someone yell SLUT out of their car window at you every day since you're 12 years old by dudes in cars while you walk home from school...

It's a way of life for a lot of women. You're asking to not be judged by women because you're not like that.

But instead of being upset at women for "judging" (I mean, what would you have us do? We can't know you're not one of those dudes until we know you!), be mad at the dudes who do these things. They're causing the problem. They're making it unfair. When good dudes don't call it out, your silence sounds like agreement. Which is why I get so stoked when guys do call each other out on this stuff. It's rare! I've been harassed on the street a thousand times. More. But I can count on one hand how many times a guy said, "leave her alone." It's almost startling. So we're often left to think that other guys think it's ok.

That's how misogyny hurts good men. There's a link upthread to Adrock's Save This for Davis, and the lyrics are:

I know I got a long way
To grow and show and prove
It's just I love you so you never know
I know it's so hard to trust
Believe when you've heard the same words
Over again Again

That's a real understanding of the issues women face with this stuff. That's hard to trust when you keep hearing the same abuse all the time, from dude after dude all your life. It takes a bit to trust that you're not one of the assholes. Need more Adrocks, and fewer assholes.

Hopefully it's easier to understand it now, maybe coming from someone you already respect and not me, a total stranger.

So, be pissed at the dudes that make it harder for good dudes like you to just get the benefit of the doubt. Because you're a guy, it's harder for you to understand the scope of the problem. It's your privilege, you know? Instead of saying, "it's unfair for women to judge all of us because there are a few," realize that there's a lot, and it's not judgement as much as it is caution.

Then when you see or hear any of your friends acting like dicks, call them out on it. "She's not crazy man, you actually were just a huge asshole." Assholes often proliferate because their friends give them safe harbor to be assholes. I wish that there was a guy like you in those cars to say, "Hey, fuckstick, you just called a little girl a slut. WTF is wrong with you?" If enough good dudes did that, there really would be just a "few" guys acting like shits.

Anyway, I'm really, really happy that you're talking about it and asking questions. I'm sorry that this kind of crap affects you and everyone else. Sucks.

[paperdali]

I'm not sure if you're referring to this thread or to what paperdali wrote, but I don't believe anyone that's posted in this has generalized thier experiences to mean all men. As I said in a previous post, I got a message from a male here that basically said "sorry for that idiot.". He didn't have to do that. It wasn't him that wrote that to me. I really appreciated that though. So, yeah, it's good to have some sense that guys are trying to understand. And it's great that you posted here. Always good to see another perspective.

Cosigned. I'm so glad you got that PM. It's a huge relief when guys step up like that, it means a lot.

[LilTreyR]

Point taken :cool:

[Heather_D]

Cosigned. I'm so glad you got that PM. It's a huge relief when guys step up like that, it means a lot.

It does! And you said it perfectly when you wrote that men that jus sit back & don't say anything can be just as guilty as the one calling the woman an inappropriate name. And, of course, that goes for everyone really.

Martin Niemoller, a social activist, wrote a poem of sorts after World War II.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

What this says to me is, regardless of a situation be it racism, sexism, whatever, if you don't speak up against injustices, there won't be anyone who'll speak for you.

[paperdali]

In sweeter good dude news, I found out that the Beastie Boys and Le Tigre are supporters of Rock n' Roll Camp for Girls, which encourages little girls/young women to play, form bands, scratch, make your own beats, etc. http://www.girlsrockcamp.org/supporters/friends-and-sponsors

[LilTreyR]

It does! And you said it perfectly when you wrote that men that jus sit back & don't say anything can be just as guilty as the one calling the woman an inappropriate name. And, of course, that goes for everyone really.

Martin Niemoller, a social activist, wrote a poem of sorts after World War II.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

What this says to me is, regardless of a situation be it racism, sexism, whatever, if you don't speak up against injustices, there won't be anyone who'll speak for you.

Some additional quotes you may find interesting (y)
http://www.no2torture.org/quotes/quotes_speaking.shtml

[Heather_D]

In sweeter good dude news, I found out that the Beastie Boys and Le Tigre are supporters of Rock n' Roll Camp for Girls, which encourages little girls/young women to play, form bands, scratch, make your own beats, etc. http://www.girlsrockcamp.org/supporters/friends-and-sponsors

That's awesome. I wish I knew about stuff like that (or even if they had stuff like that) when I was growing up.

[paperdali]

Me too. I bought a guitar this year because I always wanted to learn to play, and figured, "I'm 39, when am I going to get around to it?"

I suck, but my teacher is really patient. He mostly teaches little kids, so he'll say in a sing-song voice, "GOOD JOB!" when I learn a new chord. He's like, 7 years younger than I am. It cracks me up.

[Heather_D]

The ukeleili is apparently where it's at these days. 2 of my friends play (1 just starting, the other in a group called the ukeladies). I picked up one in Hawaii & will start as soon as I can find it. I remember, as a kid, watching the walk this way video & just being in awe of it all. I broke out some of my dad's records & started trying to scratch. That didn't go over so well....

But it's nice to see that females have the same opportunities as males (& vice versa!). One of these days, I hope, we'll be having a discussion about the musicality of a song like this instead a discussion on what it means & how it resonates.

[MCA4ever]

Me too. I bought a guitar this year because I always wanted to learn to play, and figured, "I'm 39, when am I going to get around to it?"

I suck, but my teacher is really patient. He mostly teaches little kids, so he'll say in a sing-song voice, "GOOD JOB!" when I learn a new chord. He's like, 7 years younger than I am. It cracks me up.

Good for you for just doing it. There's so many things I wished I would have done or learned and little by little I'm starting to do them. Starting out small though like learning how to take a decent picture. Always wondered what all those icons on my camera stood for :) good luck w/your lessons.

[JohnnyChavello]

nevermind

[MsPacMan]

Sorry I’m a bit late catching up on this! (.........time zone disadvantage!)

Hi LilTreyR great to see you on the thread!

Reading your initial comments; ie..........

Yeah this guy is a jerk but I don't think it had anything to do with "men vs. women" Unless I am missing something ???

I know I have to choose my words carefully here, but not all of us have deviant minds that work like that. It's not really fair to judge all or most men based on behaviors of a few.

.............I was automatically going to suggest that maybe you needed to read the first few pages of this thread.....
.....eg my earlier comment:

People often misinterpret me when I say I’m a feminist. Does this happen to you? “Feminist” is not a synonym for “man-hater”. Feminism means that women are equal to men. One gender is not stronger/better/smarter than the other.

Some of the most sexist people I have ever met have been women. Some of the most open-minded have been men.

" Continued evolution of an individual"

........BUT dude.........I am impressed! You were one step ahead of me!

I read this whole thread to try and comprehend where these things are coming from. Can't say I fully understand but there is always something to learn.

...........wow! That’s pretty awesome. PROPS! Open-mindedness scores a lot of points in my book. Like you I still admit I’m a long way away from fully comprehending the complexities of this issue. But I’m trying, and I respect the fact that you are, too.

I hope you’ll understand I’m being genuine when I say “thankyou”. I think it’s admirable that you’d take the time to read all of that.

Actually I’d be really interested to hear your thoughts about what we’ve been writing for the past couple of weeks.

I just don't see where "song for the man" has anything to do with this. Just don't see it
If some of you use this song in particular as a crutch to right every wrong in your life, don't you think it will eventually lose its meaning?

To the casual observer, I can understand how what we’ve been discussing has little (if anything) to do with the Beastie Boys.

But to us, it has EVERYTHING to do with the Beastie Boys. (Not speaking for ALL women, just myself and possibly a couple of ladies on this thread).

I struggle to express how fucking HUGE “Song For The Man” is, in my life. I literally think about it every day. EVERY day.

I wish I possessed the eloquence to explain myself properly – but alas; once again I shall rely on others to make my point for me.

I don’t know if you have read this article yet. If you haven’t; I really hope you do. It will give you a woman’s perspective and in its own way, it basically explains why this thread exists.

I’m gonna quote a little part of it here (but you can read the whole thing via this link).
http://popgurls.com/2012/05/16/gratitude/ (published May 16th)

GRATITUDE

For years, I’ve taken the same shortcut home from work, through Atwater Village, where these three young men recorded, played, lived, and wrote. There’s always some Beastie Boys mix straining the bass of my crappy sound system, (“so put your worries on hold and get up and groove with the rhythm in your soul…”) and as I round the corner onto Los Feliz Boulevard, whatever bullshit job issues holding a death grip on my spine melt away, and I am at peace.

Music has a way of creeping in to your subconscious, affecting you in ways you don’t realize...........there’s “Sure Shot.” When you’re a woman, there are times when every man looks like just another subway groper, catcaller, or abuser who will tell you that your experiences aren’t real, that your thoughts are silly, and that your mind is worthless. I was having one of those days. Something horrible happened to me, and I felt like garbage. Auto-piloting down the 5 Freeway, toward that Atwater shortcut, feeling numb, with a side-order of angry, the CD on random, when the words rang out: “I wanna say a little somethin’ that’s long overdue, that disrespect for women has got to be through. To all the mothers and the sisters and the wives and friends, I wanna offer my love and respect to the end.”

That something wasn’t little. Not at that moment. It was everything. I’d heard the song a million-and-one times before, but the lyrics came through the shitty factory-installed speakers of my Chevy (not an) Impala at just the right second in my life to remind me that the world was filled with good men who weren’t going to put up with this hatred any longer. That he was sorry about saying all that shit about roofies and toilet brushes. I pushed through to “Song for the Man,” and Adam Horovitz continued the thought, shoving back at all those assholes who felt entitled to my ass on the T, when I was a scared kid praying that the pervert would exit at the next stop. “What gives you the right to look her up and down?”

Usually, it was that trademark silly rapper bluster that lifted me up, my lip curling up in a smirk right about the time the Boys were shouting that they had more hits than Sadaharu Oh. It was “Sure Shot” on a summer day in SoCal that gave me courage when I needed it. It’s still “Sure Shot” that echoes through my brain when some dude makes a boneheaded remark. I think, “Someone cooler and smarter than you’ll ever hope to be is on my side. Now shove your male privilege up your ass and waddle away, motherfucker.” An old friend of mine explained, “…that one line makes so many things bearable.” And I wonder if he knew that, if any of them know that.

____________________________________________

We’re not grasping at straws, trying to find meaning that simply isn’t there. We’re not giving these songwriters more credit than they deserve. We LOVE “Song For The Man”, but this isn’t the “ let’s gush over Adrock, our knight-in-shining-armour” thread. It’s obvious we respect him tremendously but we don’t have him on a pedestal. It’s more complex than that.

Here’s an excerpt from another superbly written article entitled “MCA’s Feminist Legacy” (published May 8th):

The news of Adam Yauch’s death felt like a punch to the stomach. It wasn’t just because I was a fan........It wasn’t just because—like a lot of people who grew up during a certain time in New York City—the Beastie Boys felt like a cultural touchstone.

For a female hip hop fan—for this female hip hop fan, at least—the Beastie Boys meant so much more.

..........Once you’ve realized that you’re living in a world that believes women are “less than” in every imaginable way, one of the things that can be most frustrating is that very few men get it. You want the people in your life, the men you care about, to understand the awful toll it can take on you. Operating in a world that sees you as less than fully human can be soul crushing—but it’s also incredibly lonely.

When you speak up about any sense of unfairness or injustice, you’re told that you’re overreacting, you’re too angry, too silly—shut up already. It takes a tremendous amount of fortitude to be able to live in this world as a woman, let alone a woman who wants things to change.

And that’s what was so remarkable and emotional about the Beastie Boys’ feminist turnaround. Maybe your father says sexism doesn’t exist and your boyfriend disrespects you. Maybe you have to deal with assholes on the subway who rub up against you every day and laugh when you yell at them. But listening to this band that you love so much say that your pain is real, that the world is fucked up and that they are not going to participate in actions that hurt you anymore because they care about you—it was the overwhelming feeling of being made visible. They were sending a clear message to their female fans: this isn’t okay, we have your back, we’re sorry.

It was the apology we never got from the high school teacher who stared at our breasts, the acknowledgement of injustice that politicians and American culture dance around—and it was coming from people whom we cared about and respected, people with cultural power.

Hearing the Beastie Boys speak out against sexism made me feel like if these men who had once sung about getting girls to “do the laundry” and “clean up my room” could understand, maybe the rest of the world would follow suit. It made me hopeful in the best way.

Maybe the shift of a band from seemingly misogynist frat boys to thoughtful messengers of feminism isn’t the most transgressive, radical thing in the world. But for women who love hip hop—or who love pop culture—and are denigrated by it every day, it was validation. For one of the first times, the music I loved loved me back. I know that Yauch's passing doesn't mean the Beastie Boys will stop their musical or activist contributions. But it does mark the end of seeing these three boys turn into men, watching them grow up together into incredible allies for women.

Yauch left behind a wife and a daughter. I hope that he knew that he made the world a better place for them—and for all of us.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/167768/mcas-feminist-legacy#

[MCA4ever]

Oops!

[Heather_D]

Oops!

You did it again?

You played with my heart.

Got lost in the game.

Don't judge cuz I know my Britney songs. :D