Posters annoyed with the Beastie Boys/feminism conversation: Please read and respond!

[WhoMoi?]

I wrote the following as a post in another thread (Beastie Boys: The Final Years Video) in response to a guy who was clearly annoyed with a female poster's comments. It may seem out-of-context if you didn't read that thread, I guess; but I didn't feel like hijacking that thread any further, since Ben made yet another awesome video compilation that he was kind enough to share with all of us! (y)
So here was my response. I can't stress enough that I am looking to understand and try to reach a point of real communication on this recurring topic:

This is so frustrating to me, that any time a female on this board mentions being uncomfortable about something the boys did/said regarding women in the LTI-era, a guy or two responds in a way that is critical or just seems to be trying to shut it down.

It isn't always the same guys that respond this way, so I'm learning not to shrug it off as "that dude's just a jerk." And it's often guys who have made comments/contributions in other threads that I really appreciate.

So I'm asking, and I'm truly trying to understand where you're coming from (and I wish you'd give the girls who make the original comments the same opportunity to explain their own points of view)...

1. Why is it not okay, in your mind, for women to say anything negative about the Beastie Boys' LTI-era attitude, lyrics, and behaviors toward women, when they themselves have apologized for this and taken a stance against that type of attitude/behavior in the many years since then?

2. We're obviously all fans here (aside from the occasional "troll" who tries to stir shit up). Do you honestly think that girls who are fans and make comments/ask questions about this Beastie/feminism topic are just trying to slam them indiscriminately? (If so, I'll clear this one up right now...we're not. We love Beastie Boys. That's why we're here. I don't like to speak for others, but I really feel like I can do that in this case on behalf of ALL the females who regularly read/post on the BBMB.)

3. The biggest thing I don't understand, is how anyone who is a Beastie fan can listen to and absorb their lyrics and public comments about women, etc., from the last 20 years or so, and still automatically be on the offense anytime a fellow fan broaches this topic. Could a fan who reacts in that way please explain this to me?

*Please understand this: I am NOT trying to stir up anything further with these questions. I'm truly trying to understand what is going through some of your minds when you're responding to this type of stuff in a way that just totally confounds me.

*I'm NOT interested in a pissing match where you quote my post and then say "fuck off" or "shut up." Been there, done that. I now understand that for some reason, when girls analyze this stuff, it pisses you off, so no need to reiterate. The part I don't get is why.

It feels very deja vu every time this comes up, and clearly this topic is not going to go away, so I just think it's a conversation that needs to be had in order for any type of real discussion to happen here beyond: "this is how I feel about LTI-era Beastie behavior toward women" > "fuck off!"

[CoolAsACucumber]

It may come down to the fact that even though the Boys later acknowledged and apologized for the sentiment of the LTI era, it wasn't something they wanted to be remembered for. They saw that era and their actions as a joke, as a parody of the bands that partook in that activity, but too many people didn't see the joke. Then they got caught up in all that monkey business to the point where I think I read that Yauch thought about quitting it all together.

The point being is they grew up as men...saw that the climate of misogyny in hip hop (which, in part, they contributed to) was irresponsible and tried to make it right and I believe that they did.

I don't believe that "it's not ok" to talk about the LTI era, but when the Boys have more than atoned for it, why continue to be offended by it? Why not see it as a pure and true example that three guys that acted like frat boy douchebags in the beginning ended up being some of our finest allies in women's rights and issue?

[Micodin]

What bothered me was the fact the words abusing and rape came up more than once. Yauch is gone and cannot defend something that happened 25 or 26 years ago. Let it go. There are more pressing issues in the world to respond to and get behind.

If I acted out of turn with my sarcastic replies. So be it. I seriously don't give a fuck. The foolishness that was being posted needed someone to tell them to "shut up".

Bringing up what Yauch did on video (which the group has gone on record and apologized for) in '86 - '87 and making it into something more than it should is obnoxious and uncalled for.

I'm all for feminism and I think rape is one of the worst offensives you could do to another human. Truly.

All that being said. This is the wrong forum. Go on some marches, do something for your community to make people aware of these travesties that are happening presently and combat them.

Whinging about a video that the group as a whole has done more than once apologized and acknowledged as wrong is poor form. Especially since one of the members of that group is no longer with us.

What was once a nice thread by Ben to honor Yauch in his way was convoluted by "OMG Yauch has his hands down a girls pants! He's abusing her! Blah, blah, blah..."

Get over yourselves. It's old history.

#FREEPUSSYRIOT

[WhoMoi?]

It may come down to the fact that even though the Boys later acknowledged and apologized for the sentiment of the LTI era, it wasn't something they wanted to be remembered for. They saw that era and their actions as a joke, as a parody of the bands that partook in that activity, but too many people didn't see the joke. Then they got caught up in all that monkey business to the point where I think I read that Yauch thought about quitting it all together.

I get that - they didn't want to be remembered for that. But if that stuff pops up in a video clip shared on this board, then they are being remembered for that, to an extent. And then is it really not okay for a girl having thoughts/feelings about that to respond to it somehow without being barraged with insults? That is what doesn't make sense to me, and it seems antithetical to the very thing the Beasties have tried to promote - respect for women, kindness to others, etc.


The point being is they grew up as men...saw that the climate of misogyny in hip hop (which, in part, they contributed to) was irresponsible and tried to make it right and I believe that they did.

I don't believe that "it's not ok" to talk about the LTI era, but when the Boys have more than atoned for it, why continue to be offended by it? Why not see it as a pure and true example that three guys that acted like frat boy douchebags in the beginning ended up being some of our finest allies in women's rights and issue?

(y)
I agree with so much of what you are saying. They did, for sure, end up as our best allies.

I'm just not sure that it's realistic to expect that some women aren't going to have emotions/reactions come up when some of those old video clips, etc., are shared here. And that's when the "shut up"s and "eff you"s start coming back at these girls. :confused:

[cj hood]

this board's been raped by newbies and for that i am offended...

[abbott]

you can judge anyone for anything.

I am concerned about something i did in the 5th grade, around 1980. But I am not that guy anymore.

shit, I am a better guy today than I was last month.

I just like the Beastie Boys, and my fan-ship grew as they grew.

I remember being blown away by things like ..

"I'm a newlywed, not a divorcee,"

"the disrespect of women has got to be through...."

and those things made me a bigger longer-term fan and why im still here today.

however, I do belive as a fan I have the right to say .. "if you don't like then hey fuck you."

not that I am saying fuck you though...

[CoolAsACucumber]

Let me tell you a true story. When "Licensed to Ill" came out, I was 14 years old. I loved FFYR and No Sleep Til Brooklyn, but when I saw the Boys on stage, with the dancing girls and inflatable on stage penis, I thought they were gross. At 14, I didn't get the joke. I just thought they were douchebags.

During the 90's, I saw the change in their music and persona, but was too busy raising my kids and life in general to pay too much attention to the depth of that change, but I still lost my shit when I heard "So What'cha Want" and "Sabotage".

After Yauch died, reading the articles and the history, I realized fully how much these three changed. I went from thinking they were gross when I was a teenager to now having a deep and profound respect for all of them, but especially Yauch. My respect for them evolved as they evolved.

Even in his crazy days, I don't believe Yauch was capable of any kind of violence towards women and anything you saw him do with a woman was most likely because he had a willing woman with him.

I think the advantage that any new / young Beastie fan has is that they can see their evolution whenever they want. Of course, being there as it happened was pretty cool too.

All I am saying is that they paid their dues and it isn't fair to judge them on what they were when they became what they become. None of us are at our best in the beginning.

[Bernard Goetz]

No, it's fair to judge them on what they were then, just not solely on that.

[JohnnyChavello]

OK, I'll go ahead and dive head first into this.

Stipulated facts:

1) I don't have a problem with feminism. None.

2) The tour video segment discussed in the last thread was sketchy. They weren't "acting" and it makes me cringe to see stuff like that too (though, let's be honest, their reputation for being sexist assholes is vastly overstated).

3) I have no problem with discussions relating to 1) or 2).

4) Form and content are two different things. I can object to the form of your comments without objecting to the substance.

5) It's not the feminism that bothered me, it was the narcissism.

[Kid Presentable]

I'm not reading the first post. It doesn't always have to be about feminism. What fucked me off is you said I was picking on someone when I wasn't because you'd decided that was the truth, and then had the gall to drop 'WWYD' like I and a million other people aren't fucking crushed enough about his death without being determined to be failures in his eyes (according to you). Fuck you for that.

And if you try and lump me in with some jerk guy who hates women and harks for a world of LTI era dudes, then fuck you again. Young dudes do dumb shit, so do young women.

Stay, though. Seriously.

[pshabi]

1. Why is it not okay, in your mind, for women to say anything negative about the Beastie Boys' LTI-era attitude, lyrics, and behaviors toward women, when they themselves have apologized for this and taken a stance against that type of attitude/behavior in the many years since then?


I'm not saying it's not "ok" to speak against it but the bboys themselves have acknowledged, apologized, and stood up against it for almost 20 years now!!!!!

So, no need to bring it up like, "I'm so appalled they did that. That behavior is unacceptable.....it really bothers me that blah blah blah. It's really unlike them yada yada yada." NO SHIT!!!!!! It's been addressed.....it's over.

It's like I'm hanging out with my boy that I've known since childhood and he's still bitching about the time I peeked playing Hide n Seek when we were 5 years old.

It's not that we're being insensitive, it's just an old story and I personally don't need to hear it again. Move on. Nothing new here.

[pshabi]

They saw that era and their actions as a joke, as a parody of the bands that partook in that activity, but too many people didn't see the joke.

I'll defend the bboys to my dying day on just about anything, but I always that the above "excuse" was pretty much bullshit. I never thought it was them trying to parody anything. It was them being young, chauvinistic, and super immature. Did they take it to obnoxious, over the top levels? Absolutely. But I could never buy into them saying it was an act.

Sue me.

[MCA4ever]

I dont believe their hayday was an act either. They were having fun and that stuff was considered fun then. I've done some crazy stuff too, kind of lucky to be alive today :) They grew up. Most of us did.

[CoolAsACucumber]

I'll defend the bboys to my dying day on just about anything, but I always that the above "excuse" was pretty much bullshit. I never thought it was them trying to parody anything. It was them being young, chauvinistic, and super immature. Did they take it to obnoxious, over the top levels? Absolutely. But I could never buy into them saying it was an act.

Sue me.

You misunderstand me, and I see why because I didn't express it well. They WERE young, chauvinistic, and super immature. They took that and went OVER the top with it. They made themselves the joke and the parody. I don't believe for a moment that it was ALL an act. I mean if they were sweet, sensitive guys back then, they wouldn't have acted like they did. Do you think I'd be a Yauch fan girl and defending the Beasties if they stayed the same guys they were back then? Oh hell no!

Please excuse my wording, as I was not trying to absolve them of any wrong doing. To do so, as someone else pointed out, would be a dishonor to what they become.

That all being said, I stand by what I said that they atoned for it and it doesn't need to be talked about and rehashed AD NAUSEUM.

[YoungRemy]

there's nothing here that's not been said before...

[Sir SkratchaLot]

WhoMoi.

You're right that you're not going to see any of the Beasties even trying to defend that part of the tape.

You've obviously hit a nerve with some people, for whatever reason. In the best case it's because they're fragile over Yauch's death and in the worst case it's because they're sexist assholes and don't want to feel guilty about their own thoughts and actions. You'll never really know because nobody comes out and says "yeah, I'm sexist". The fact that you're getting this sort of response is telling. For instance, if you brought up "Desperado" nobody is going to jump on you and say "that's already been discussed a million times!!! Fuck you!"

Any time you bring up racism, sexism, etc. you tend to get that "oh why you got to bring up old shit?" response. It puts people on the defensive but that's no reason not to bring it up. That might even be MORE of a reason to bring it up.

It's not like you brought it up in the first place. You were responding to something in somebody else's post. I say fair game.

[LucieT]

Wow I didn't know my reaction would get that much "reactions"...I guess I am " the female poster" who was annoying people...lol...
Anyway happy that people talk about it...
For me it's not even the BBoys nor mca, it's more about a behaviour, that is apparently still accepted...
But since I'm talking to beastie boys fans, I think it's also interresting to see how the Beastie Boys themselves talk about sexism: that it is one problem that matter to them, and also interresting to read some kathleen Hannah blog posts...who unfortunately knows a bunch of shit about it... by "it" I mean "sexism and rape"...and she also wrote about her feelings about the Beasties and how they have changed...
Just sayin'

[MCA4ever]

Lucie, I noticed you are from France and I'm just wondering if some of your confusion could be because of a language problem. Do you understand that sexism and rape are two very different things?

[Lex Diamonds]

Micodin is just a huge cunt, to be fair.

OP: Your gender doesn't determine how much of a sexist retard you are so be careful with that. You might just be one.

[LucieT]

I think I know what I am saying by sexism and rape thank you lol !
The two subjects were talked by the beasties and Kathleen, that is to say they talked about sexism, and also rape... this is what I've said... just check it out...
Even thought, I think, it's different, but not that different..
You can be sexist and not a raper for sure...
but to be a raper there must be some kind of sexism somewhere...

[LucieT]

Lucie, I noticed you are from France and I'm just wondering if some of your confusion could be because of a language problem. Do you understand that sexism and rape are two very different things?

And you are a nice girl but you don't need to talk to me like a baby, or a retard, I know it may be surprising but I am a grown up...probably older than you...knowing what I am saying, even in english... :)

[MCA4ever]

And you are a nice girl but you don't need to talk to me like a baby, or a retard, I know it may be surprising but I am a grown up...probably older than you...knowing what I am saying, even in english... :)

Well alrighty then. Good luck with that :)

[Extra Cheese]

There are more pressing issues in the world to respond to and get behind.

please, you can say that just about anything is this world. Thats just an easy and lame excuse and attempt at trying to get people to stop expressing an opinion. You hear that bullshit all the time, 'theres more important blahblahblah' i'm sure every one here heard that same line countless times when the free tibet movement was at its peak and I would bet you were on the side of people expressing their opinions.


Bringing up what Yauch did on video (which the group has gone on record and apologized for) in '86 - '87 and making it into something more than it should is obnoxious and uncalled for.

you could honestly look at the video and think the reactions are obnoxious and uncalled for? I do not.



All that being said. This is the wrong forum. Go on some marches, do something for your community to make people aware of these travesties that are happening presently and combat them.

Again, just your average shit being said to get someone you disagree with to shut up.

[bigfatlove06]

I always tend to be annoyed when people (regardless of gender) draw unsubstantiated conclusions. None of us have any idea what the woman in the video was thinking. Jumping to the conclusion that she was being abused as opposed to acting as a willing participant is foolish. Speculating that she was abused is theoretical. By the same token speculating that she was perfectly ok with it is equally valid. So whether the girl was being "abused" or just having fun is a matter of opinion, rather than fact. My issue with some of the posts regarding sexism is that many of the folks posting comments on the subject seem to have made assumptions that have no empirical validity. When others attempt to point that out the responses are again unsubstantiated assumptions about their personal morality. As if because someone dared to propose that potentially the woman involved was in fact a willing participant they are somehow condoning sexual abuse by equating it to having fun.

[YoungRemy]

she looked like a groupie in the 1980's.

see also; Led Zeppelin, red snapper incident

[LucieT]

I always tend to be annoyed when people (regardless of gender) draw unsubstantiated conclusions. None of us have any idea what the woman in the video was thinking. Jumping to the conclusion that she was being abused as opposed to acting as a willing participant is foolish. Speculating that she was abused is theoretical. By the same token speculating that she was perfectly ok with it is equally valid. So whether the girl was being "abused" or just having fun is a matter of opinion, rather than fact. My issue with some of the posts regarding sexism is that many of the folks posting comments on the subject seem to have made assumptions that have no empirical validity. When others attempt to point that out the responses are again unsubstantiated assumptions about their personal morality. As if because someone dared to propose that potentially the woman involved was in fact a willing participant equates to condoning sexual abuse to having fun.

I think you are right on that...concerning me, I know it sounded like "conclusions"..but it was not ,really..I was just expressing my thoughts about it...when I saw that the first time..I was like " wow what it that ! "...I was, and still am wondering what did happen in reality...but like you said, we can't know anyway...but I think it would be interresting to talk about it...because, to me, it's not something you can watch and be like: whatever...
And with opposing: "being actually abused" and "acting" ...well you are probably right, must be more complicated..

[Laver1969]

I'll defend the bboys to my dying day on just about anything, but I always that the above "excuse" was pretty much bullshit. I never thought it was them trying to parody anything. It was them being young, chauvinistic, and super immature. Did they take it to obnoxious, over the top levels? Absolutely. But I could never buy into them saying it was an act.

Sue me.

Pshabi is pretty accurate. I was 17 when I first saw the Beasties in concert in 1987 and I was a kid that wanted to party, drink beer and get girls...just like the Beasties. They were being young and immature because they were young and immature...and rock stars. Not an excuse...but I think they all had good core values and it showed as they grew up.

I think they took it over the top because there was a spotlight on them and they wanted to live up to the nth degree.

[JoLovesMCA]

Well I don’t think anybody should feel like they can’t express their thoughts about how the bb’s have evolved as artists, but when somebody start up topics of abuse it’s going to hit a nerve. And it makes it a lot worse when you’re aiming at a Beastie Boy who just died tragically from cancer. An argument is pretty much impossible to avoid.

I guess if you are a female who is truly offended by the LTI era then I don’t know what to say. I never felt violated by anything the Beastie Boys did or said. I was always humoured by it, but that’s me. I have a close friend in the BB community who absolutely hates the whole LTI era. She knows I love it, but we’ve never argued over our differing views. And I like to keep it that way to avoid shit like this!

But I don’t think the band should have to keep apologizing for their behaviors from the 80’s. When Adam died everybody in the world embraced his achievements and his good will towards people… they didn’t give two shits about what he did in that LTI video.

And I’ve heard plenty of feminist bloggers spend more time praising the boys for what they did for women and less time harping on the past.

[Laver1969]

I think you are right on that...concerning me, I know it sounded like "conclusions"..but it was not ,really..I was just expressing my thoughts about it...when I saw that the first time..I was like " wow what it that ! "...I was, and still am wondering what did happen in reality...but like you said, we can't know anyway...but I think it would be interresting to talk about it...because, to me, it's not something you can watch and be like: whatever...
And with opposing: "being actually abused" and "acting" ...well you are probably right, must be more complicated..

I'd bet that they had quite a few crazy backstage parties like that. I'd also bet they had quite a few adventures on the bus and in the hotels too. This one was just documented for their home video. Gotta check Ricky's cameras...

[Micodin]

Micodin is just a huge cunt, to be fair.

Wipe me down and blow me from the back.

[LucieT]

Well I don’t think anybody should feel like they can’t express their thoughts about how the bb’s have evolved as artists, but when somebody start up topics of abuse it’s going to hit a nerve. And it makes it a lot worse when you’re aiming at a Beastie Boy who just died tragically from cancer. An argument is pretty much impossible to avoid.

I guess if you are a female who is truly offended by the LTI era then I don’t know what to say. I never felt violated by anything the Beastie Boys did or said. I was always humoured by it, but that’s me. I have a close friend in the BB community who absolutely hates the whole LTI era. She knows I love it, but we’ve never argued over our differing views. And I like to keep it that way to avoid shit like this!

But I don’t think the band should have to keep apologizing for their behaviors from the 80’s. When Adam died everybody in the world embraced his achievements and his good will towards people… they didn’t give two shits about what he did in that LTI video.

And I’ve heard plenty of feminist bloggers spend more time praising the boys for what they did for women and less time harping on the past.

Actually I agree with what you say...
My comment was about seing a girl molested..period...more than talking about MCA himself...or the boys actual behaviour..
I have no problem with the LTI area, they were funny...and I do not take this period and album seriouly, that's why I like the song "girls", I have no problem with their huge inflatable penis (actually I wish I could have seen that)...and so on...

I've read here and there that the people who met them during that time, said they were actually very polite , respectful and well-educated.. I've also read that Israel Horovitz said this area was a complete joke... ( that's also why I talked about "acting"..but I actually don't know ..is it in this footage where at the end the cops came and took them ? )

[LilTreyR]

Wipe me down and blow me from the back.

You're one disgusting dude.

#malignantstupidity

[Micodin]

You're one disgusting dude.

#malignantstupidity

Cheers!

And this place needs to lighten the fuck up. It's a fucking internet forum not a exclusive high society dinner party.

Besides a few people on this board, I could give a fuck about what you say or think of me. Seriously. If this French broad is so horrified about Yauch putting his hand down some chicks pants after a show in '86 and keeps comparing it to "seeing a girl molested" then I have the right to son the shit out of her and any other person that keeps overreacting about it.

I don't seriously don't give a fuck.

#FREECOOLC

[dust monkey]

Too Short at 46 is bad for the double-XL thing. They were not acting in the video, or were they...we don't know, and who are we to judge/speculate/wonder/guess. Of all the beautiful shots and images in Ben’s video why would Lucy not only be the 1st to respond, but why would she call them out front and center for something we’ve seen a million times and in some cases, tried to emulate ourselves. Ooops a confession. Yes I did it, wasn’t I supposed to? My heroes did, I wanted to be them so I tried. Please...the shots we got to see were just foreplay, the real fun happened after the cameras went off....then they all switched places when someone rang the bell. So what is the problem? The girls in those scenes were just as irresponsible as them for their choices that night. Nobody was abused (or worse), or maybe they were because really how and the fuck do we know. But it is also irresponsible to start this almost 30 years after the fact because we know how we turned out, and we think we know how they turned out.

Is it really helpful to anyone now to have this weight of regret pulling us down; to be a source of discouragement and depression with no purpose, to let this regret interfere with our life by not allowing us to succeed to the best of our abilities? I’m sure we all live with regret, but how does this regret manifest itself to you? Lucy – by starting this are you really serving any purpose that is helpful or positive? All any of us can do is move on because the past cannot be changed. Guilt, regret, etc. are just a waste of time. Pity is a nasty trap. It was acknowledged, they did it, we’ve done it, they/we feel sorry for doing it, they/we have resolved ourselves to not do it again and they/we have forgiven ourselves and let go. My point is this, I’m sure there is a very sincere feeling of regret over this incident and the millions more not captured on video; they in turn responded without over-responding (i.e. turning into a Christian gospel polka rock band), and that’s why we love them. They carry their regret with dignity and grace, they also did not allow the regret to weigh them down; choosing instead to move forward and focus on helping others.

So my question to you, why regress? What purpose is served in the context of moving forward, by trudging up (1st) something we all cringe a little at now when we see? Why even speculate “act” vs. “boys will be boys”, what business is it of ours and what is gained from this discussion now?

[WhoMoi?]

I'm starting with this one, because it feels like a huge misunderstanding:

I'm not reading the first post. It doesn't always have to be about feminism. What fucked me off is you said I was picking on someone when I wasn't because you'd decided that was the truth, and then had the gall to drop 'WWYD' like I and a million other people aren't fucking crushed enough about his death without being determined to be failures in his eyes (according to you). Fuck you for that.

And if you try and lump me in with some jerk guy who hates women and harks for a world of LTI era dudes, then fuck you again. Young dudes do dumb shit, so do young women.

Stay, though. Seriously.

:eek:
I wasn't referring to you or "The Vibes" thread in initial post on this thread. I'm referring to some posts on the "final years video" thread, as well as numerous posts that have popped up here and there in response to some female posters' comments regarding LTI-era lyrics, behavior, etc. I don't ever remember you having responded in that way in any of those situations. :confused:

It's totally your right to not read the first post of the thread, but I think not doing so might have caused some confusion. :(

And as for WWYD...it's kind of been my own personal mantra lately to remind me to be kind and mindful (God knows I need that reminder...often!!!). I wasn't trying to insinuate anything or judge anyone with it! But since it apparently came off that way, I'll keep that one to myself from now on, I guess.

[CoolAsACucumber]

^^THIS RIGHT HERE!!

Preach it, brother!!

Oops...meant for dust monkey!

[MCA4ever]

My point is this, I’m sure there is a very sincere feeling of regret over this incident and the millions more not captured on video; they in turn responded without over-responding (i.e. turning into a Christian gospel polka rock band), and that’s why we love them. They carry their regret with dignity and grace, they also did not allow the regret to weigh them down; choosing instead to move forward and focus on helping others.

What a great way to end this discussion :)

[Micodin]

What a great way to end this discussion :)

Agreed. :)

[Heather_D]

but to be a raper there must be some kind of sexism somewhere...

Having had this "experience," I can assure you there does not have to be sexism involved in rape. I'm not sure how anyone else defines sexism, but I define it as being judged based solely on being male or female. For example, do not assume a male would be able to lift a 100 lb weight. And don't assume that a female can't lift it. Sexism is a two way street.

Rape has more to do with power- a use of force. And, reading the word "raper" makes it look like it should be "rapper.". A person that commits rape is a rapist.

Enough about that, though. This is an Internet forum. Chill. Honestly, I don't know the beginnings of this whole deal, but seriously? If you can't provide positive feed back or offer constructive criticism, then why post? My friend (both on the internet and in "real life"), Who Moi? Just asked a question to try to understand some people's thought process. If you're not going to give her an honest answer, why even waste a post? As much as it seems everyone wants these discussions to stop, they're not going to. Nor should they stop. I, personally, get a lot of pro female-ness out of the Beastie Voys music. I think that's very unique in any genre of music, not just hip hop. And I think that's why it's so important for some females here. Bottom line, we all just need to try to understand each other better & not tell people straight off. I'm finished now.

[Documad]

there's nothing here that's not been said before...

Yes. This did not need its own thread. We've discussed this to death. I understand why someone new might say "I'm confused by that" and then a couple of people say dumb things on both sides, but it should just die.

All three Beastie Boys explained this so many times over the years -- particularly when they were performing LTI songs on the pageant tour, right?

P.S. I was in college when LTI came out. I thought it was stupid. But it was obvious to me at the time that it was all a goof. So it never felt cruddy like some of the shit other bands pulled. I did some really stupid shit when I was in college. I'm glad it wasn't on camera and that people aren't judging me for it 25 years later. But people who are young today should take heed.

[Randetica]

Micodin is just a huge cunt, to be fair.

OP: Your gender doesn't determine how much of a sexist retard you are so be careful with that. You might just be one.

(!)and(!)



For me it's not even the BBoys nor mca, it's more about a behaviour, that is apparently still accepted...


agreed.


im no feminist at all but that doesnt mean it is ok to me that guys can touch women when and whereever they want without a permission..it is a crime

even sadder when this video part was acted or a joke..he or they clearly crossed they line there..and im usually ok with the lti era and always saw it as a joke anyway but that one was too much
mca has done so many wonderful things and was an amazing person but he like everyone else made mistakes that he regretted, it just pisses me off when people dont see this as a mistake only cause a "beastie boy" made it and all what the beasties do and say is the bible for those crazy ass fanatics

[WhoMoi?]

Thank you to all of you who have posted. It is definitely giving me a better sense of where people on all sides of this are coming from.

I'm going to comment on a commonality that I've observed between many of the posts here:

The boys have already apologized for their misogynistic behavior/comments/lyrics from LTI-era. What more does anyone want from them?

I completely, absolutely, 100% agree that they have gone above and beyond by not only apologizing, but promoting respect for women for nearly 20 years now. It's so admirable and means so much to me. I don't know of any other men with such widespread influence who have spoken out so much on that issue. They have certainly more than redeemed themselves, in my opinion. I'm assuming that most female fans here probably feel the same way.

The tough thing here is that their past is "out there" in the form of video, audio, and in a widespread number of people having witnessed some of those not-being-so-awesome-to-women moments in their history. So here on the board, sometimes these moments are being discussed (e.g. someone is looking for the Penthouse interview article), or video is being shared.

Sometimes, people will then have gut reactions/feelings in response to that. It's only natural.
It might be especially surprising or weird for people who became fans later in the Beasties' lives/careers, during their "socially-conscious" era, and weren't as exposed to the LTI-era stuff early on.

Again, I'm aware that I can't speak for everyone. But my sense is that in general, women who make comments in threads in response to that stuff are just stating thoughts or feelings, and probably aren't asking for any further apology or comment on it from the Beastie Boys. (Any ladies who feel differently, please do chime in!)

Speaking for myself, just as an example, my feelings/thoughts in reaction to the video clip in question on the other thread are:
- discomfort
- "I'm glad I was just a kid when LTI came out because I probably wouldn't have been able to get past that stuff to enjoy their music at that time."
- "I'm so glad that they changed (whether the early behavior/image was an "act" or not)."

While I'm having these thoughts/feelings...

Do I cognitively know that they have apologized a bajillion times for that stuff, and more than made up for it, and done many amazing things to discourage other men from behaving in that manner? YES.
Do I expect any further action on their part to prove that to me or anyone else? NO.
Do the latter two answers change the fact that I have those feelings of discomfort/"not-okayness" when I view that? NO. :(

They're gut feelings.

Some people share them in response to threads where this stuff is posted.
Some people don't.

I usually don't...

But then invariably, someone will say something kind of rude to a woman who does post a feeling about it, and then I feel the need to say something, because I know that the girl is already clearly feeling not-okay, and a guy saying something like "shut up," "get over it," or "fuck off," in response to her gut feeling about a guy-girl issue, certainly is not going to help that.

But now that some of you have shared your point of view in this thread, I also get where you guys are coming from.
So my question is:
Does it help at all for you to know that sharing these feelings/reactions is NOT necessarily a request for further apology on the part of the Beastie Boys? :confused:

Whenever I'm subjected to the reality of sexism in everyday life, what usually makes me feel better is remembering that men who "get it" do exist...
...and the Beastie Boys have been the best public example of that, in my mind, for the past 20 years or so. Thinking of them, and Song for the Man, and Yauch's line in Sure Shot, and Adrock's words at the VMAs in HN-era, etc., etc., etc...that's what uplifts me, and gives me hope for the dude who yells out his car window at me about my (insert body part here) while I'm out walking my dog.

So: I'm thinking that possibly a more helpful, productive response to a girl stating such feelings on these topics, would be a gentle reminder that these guys turned it around to an amazing extent - whether you do this by simply making a generic statement, quoting a great Beastie lyric, pasting a link to video of Adrock making his awesome VMA speech...whatever. (Or just don't comment.)

Resist the temptation to say "move on," "let it go," etc., in addition to this kind reminder. We have moved on. We have let it go...until it is brought up again...and then the "gut" feelings come with it too. Sharing those feelings with you all is a measure of trust, so hearing words of insult in return is thus extra hurtful.

(This was my novella for the week, yikes. Hopefully anyone genuinely interested in this topic was able to get through it without cursing me out too much.) :)

[Tati Pryor]

Yo voy a dar mi opinión es español :) La persona que me entienda bien,
y la quiere entenerme, que busque un traductor jiji :rolleyes:

Esto es lo que pienso:

1° Lo que pasó en esa Era, es pasado. ¿cómo puedo estar tranquila con eso? Porque los Beasties, como sabemos, ya pidieron disculpas sobre ello.

No soy una experta sobre música, ¿pero cuántos músicos más han hecho esto? ¿cuántos más han reconocido errores del pasado? Yo me saco el sombrero con estos tres hombres, porque pasaron de "chicos" a exactamente eso: hombres, hechos y derechos (correctos) :) y esa es justamente una de las grandes razones por lo cual yo los admiro.

Ese comportamiento y esas letras las comprendo bajo la cosmovisión de esa época (esos años) en que se vivía y por la edad de nuestros Beasties.

Esa "Era" es parte de la historia de nuestro Beasties, ¿por qué ocultarla entonces?

Eso es lo lindo de ellos, que pasaron de chicos buenos para la juerga a verdaderos hombres de respeto y admiración. Y como una vez dijo Adrock, que no le importaba lo que dijera el resto sobre este cambio, que sonaba hipócrita, pero que prefería eso a ser un "zombie" toda su vida.




2° Siempre habrán "hombres" en el BBMB que contestarán de mala manera, porque los seguidores de los Beasties no necesariamente son seguidores de su forma de ser o pensar... simplemente les gusta su "música". Los que amamos a los Beasties por todo lo que son, como músicos y personas, estoy segura, no caeríamos en comentarios que descalifican.

3° Entiendo que pueden haber mujeres que se sienten más sensibles con este tema. Pero supongo que deben ser fans más recientes de nuestros
B-Boys... quiero decir, que no conocen la "historia evolutiva" de nuestros Beasties, de sus letras y sentimientos. Es por esto que les llama la atención o les causa más impacto. Y lo digo yo, porque a mí eso me pasó, sobre todo cuando vi por primera vez ese video en donde Yauch ponía su mano dentro del pantalón de aquella chica. Y cuando escucho canciones del LTI me río y pienso... estos chicos, qué bien se la pasaron en su juventud...

Ah, yo soy una BeastieFan más nueva y siempre me pregunto ¿por qué las chichas de esa época les gustaban los Beastie? Con esas letras y sus presentaciones tan "masculinas" ... Quiero decir ¿cómo podían gustarles? Y creo que la respuesta me lleva a mi primer punto. En aquellos años esa era la cosmovisión... una sociedad llena de "hijos del patriarcado", una sociedad mucho más machista que la actual. ¿y qué podía esperarse de los Beastie Boys?


Hay aquí alguna chica que sea fan desde los inicios de nuestros Beasties????????????

Y eso es todo lo que tengo que decir :D Tati off.

#BeastieFansForever

[Tati Pryor]

Let me tell you a true story. When "Licensed to Ill" came out, I was 14 years old. I loved FFYR and No Sleep Til Brooklyn, but when I saw the Boys on stage, with the dancing girls and inflatable on stage penis, I thought they were gross. At 14, I didn't get the joke. I just thought they were douchebags


Thanks for sharing your story (y)


I have always wondered about this. How in that era, the Beasties could have female fans?

[WhoMoi?]

Yes. This did not need its own thread. We've discussed this to death. I understand why someone new might say "I'm confused by that" and then a couple of people say dumb things on both sides, but it should just die.


Hi, Documad. I remember you from way back when. :)

I just want to say that I (respectfully) disagree. Perhaps a variation of this topic has been discussed to death; I did have a few years' hiatus from the board up until recently. Either way...this particular issue of people consistently being rude to girls who are expressing a reactionary feeling is worth talking about with the people posting here currently, I feel, since...well, it's the people posting here currently who are having these conversations!

My intent wasn't to dredge up any "wrongdoing" on the part of the Beastie Boys (even I know that that in and of itself has been discussed ad nauseum!); it was to give people a space to state what really is behind the insults that don't really mean anything to a new (or returning-after-a-long-break) poster other than face value. The face value just compounds the issue, increases the drama, etc., in my opinion. I personally prefer an actual discussion, being an idealist who hopes that it could somehow be productive and maybe prevent unnecessary sidebar drama in other threads. To each their own, though, of course.

[M|X|Y]

there's nothing here that's not been said before...

Yes. This did not need its own thread. We've discussed this to death.

(y)

but people gotsta work it out

[Documad]

Female members (and male members) are free to post their feelings, but you can't script how other people will respond. We discussed this to death years ago here and while I realize that we have many newer members you can't expect long-standing members to patiently explain things over and over. This is the wrong message board if you're looking for that. I think that long-time members have been very patient with the newer people.

I personally made a lot of mistakes here trying to lend support to people who appeared to need it but I've come around to think that it's best to chill out, say your peace, and let other people fend for themselves.

For what it's worth, I'm a woman, I'm a feminist, and I still hate Song for the Man. I find it cringe-worthy. I relied on the Beastie Boys for fun. I can handle the sociological/political stuff on my own.

edit: whomoi? - I'm slow -- I was typing my post and didn't see your last one so I'm kind of repeating myself. :o

[WhoMoi?]

and while I realize that we have many newer members you can't expect long-standing members to patiently explain things over and over. This is the wrong message board if you're looking for that.

I guess I just think there is a decent amount of middle ground between "patiently explaining things over and over" and "fuck off."


I personally made a lot of mistakes here trying to lend support to people who appeared to need it but I've come around to think that it's best to chill out, say your peace, and let other people fend for themselves.

This is sounding familiar. Maybe that's part of why I didn't come back here for like a five-year-time-span. Perhaps I'll become that jaded about this place again one day. :p

[LilTreyR]

Female members (and male members) are free to post their feelings, but you can't script how other people will respond. We discussed this to death years ago here and while I realize that we have many newer members you can't expect long-standing members to patiently explain things over and over. This is the wrong message board if you're looking for that. I think that long-time members have been very patient with the newer people.

I personally made a lot of mistakes here trying to lend support to people who appeared to need it but I've come around to think that it's best to chill out, say your peace, and let other people fend for themselves.

For what it's worth, I'm a woman, I'm a feminist, and I still hate Song for the Man. I find it cringe-worthy. I relied on the Beastie Boys for fun. I can handle the sociological/political stuff on my own.

edit: whomoi? - I'm slow -- I was typing my post and didn't see your last one so I'm kind of repeating myself. :o

I'm so sick and tired of hearing the same old "fuck the newbie" bs. Talk about narcissism. Your patientience running thin, they make pills for that. No one asked for your input and if you feel so strongly, why waste your time explaining this to anyone else.

The beasties have thousands of fans and why a handful or so of you think it's ok to rule this forum is a joke.

Yeah you newbies, if your looking for patience and understanding then you have come to the wrong place.

Leave it to a few to always take every topic of discussion to another place. Creating yet more drama.

[Randetica]

I'm so sick and tired of hearing the same old "fuck the newbie" bs. Talk about narcissism. Your patientience running thin, they make pills for that. No one asked for your input and if you feel so strongly, why waste your time explaining this to anyone else

yeah, for real

no one forces them to read those threads but thaanks for your holy patience anyway :rolleyes:


im no newb but yesterday was the first time i saw the hands in pants video (only heard about it before) so i felt like adding my shit

[WhoMoi?]

Female members (and male members) are free to post their feelings, but you can't script how other people will respond.



(Sorry for quoting/responding to you in two separate posts. For some reason your particular comment above is just resonating with me now.)

Yeah, sorry if it seemed like I was trying to write people a "script"...LOL. (Helping people communicate is my career so maybe I went a little overboard there!)

I was more just trying to give an example of the types of responses that could bring closure to these (apparently annoying and recurring) types of "offended girl" comments in a different way that wouldn't leave the girl feeling extra shitty, and could maybe even make her feel better. Shut down the recurring topic AND make someone feel better...win-win, vs. try to shut down the recurring topic via insults, start an argument in the process, and make someone feel shitty...seems like a choice worth considering, to me.

[WhoMoi?]

im no newb but yesterday was the first time i saw the hands in pants video (only heard about it before) so i felt like adding my shit


I had avoided watching that video until just recently, also.

And the addition of your shit is much appreciated. (y):)

[FLO MASTER]

lets stop the bashing. everything they did was illegal but it was all in fun. they dont have to apoligize for anything. its called "entertainment."

[Sir SkratchaLot]

You know what's been discussed to DEATH, "how can I dress up just like the Beastie Boys?" You people never chime in with "shut the fuck up" when that's being discussed over and over and over and over again (although I wish you would).

I've been on these boards since they first started in the 90s and granted, I haven't read every post, but I don't remember this topic being discussed a million times. We have a search function. I bet I can find a lot more posts about playing dress up than I can about this. I would bet on this actually.

The responses to these women is WAYYYYY out of proportion. Come on people, pull it together now.

[MCA4ever]

Hard as I try to contain my ill "gut" feelings when I see that stuff it still slips out. The one thing that all this has made me realize is that it's not the beastie boys I get upset with. It's at "the girl." and its any girl. My first thought is "she allowed it, she could have slapped him, she could have walked away, ..." Probably because I have been in similar situations as that girl in the video. Not to this particular extreme but I have allowed remarks to be made to me and around me and laughed them off. I have let guys grab certain parts of me and make obscene gestures because either i liked the guy or I have been too embarrassed to stand up for myself. For whatever the reason "I was wrong". When I see other girls "allowing" that to happen I get so angry with them, now I realize it is because of my own shortcomings. it's easy to blame the guy. It's easy to label them for it because what is the alternative? Admitting that you have no self respect, that your a "slut". I know I did not want to ever view myself as either one of those things.

In realizing that it's not you guys that upset me, or the beasties in particular, I also see how if guys didn't treat women with such disrespect I wouldnt feel the need to have to be tough or brave and stand up for myself. So it's kind of a two part battle, for me at least.

It feels much the same way as it does being part of this forum. Which btw, I love, for the most part. I love the silly little conversations, the intense ones as well. I LOVE that we all share the same adoration for 3 awesomely talented men. But I am sometimes afraid to say certain things for fear of being told to "fuck off" or to "shut up." it's usually by the guys and it really feels like it did when I would allow myself to be disrespected- for lack of a better word.

The part that is most confusing to me (im sure To many other both male and females) is that we are a part of this board for 3 guys who told the world that it's ok not to treat women like that. You would think this would be the one place where this stuff is kind of understood, and it's not. Im not saying that we should drudge this stuff up everyday and sound like broken records. When something is put out here, just a little understanding would be nice. That video could have been of any man putting his hand down any girls pants and I think the reaction would have been the same. Yeah we may beat the issue of "beastie LTI era" to death, it's used because it the only example we have. I don't know of anyone else who has publicly made statements against this type of thing and tried to make it right.

I just wanted to say, at least for me, this stuff is not about thinking the beastie boys "owe" anyone else any more of an apology and that it's not "not letting it go." it's just about why things like this sometimes make myself and others uncomfortable.

[Documad]

Talk about narcissism.

It's funny, but I was thinking about narcissism when I made my posts. But I didn't know if it was the appropriate word for what I was thinking. I don't know what to call the situation where someone thinks that they should be able to say whatever they want, using loaded words like "rape," but shouldn't be exposed to criticism.

I like newbies. The part that's yucky (to me) in some threads from some people is the self celebration -- the vibe that it's all about the poster. It's funny that I'm finding myself on this side of the conversation after so many years on the other side. I'm just expressing reality--there is a good chance that when someone expresses an opinion here, there will be people who say smart things in response and people who say rude/stupid things. And given the history of this place, I'm surprised at how restrained people have been.

I'll admit that I think it's crappy timing to criticize Yauch -- even 25 years ago Yauch -- on this forum. Yeah, people have the right but personally I'm not ready for it. His legacy is so fucking clear. But I guess that's my problem so I will try to stop reading this now.

I don't know what's the best example, but maybe new fans should track down the Fresh Air interview from when Awesome was released. They can get a sample of what the Beastie Boys said about performing LTI songs in their 40s. And hear Yauch explain in his own words.

Edit: BTW, I was trying to say that it's not guys vs. gals.

[pshabi]

im no feminist at all but that doesnt mean it is ok to me that guys can touch women when and whereever they want without a permission..it is a crime


Find me one person in this thread who said it was. This type of crap in the original post (in the other thread) is what annoyed most of us in the first place. What are we arguing here anyway?

[pshabi]

I have always wondered about this. How in that era, the Beasties could have female fans?

Probably larger than average cocks and there was always a chance you could get backstage and be lucky enough to have one of them shove his hand down your pants.

[pshabi]

Yo voy a dar mi opinión es español :) La persona que me entienda bien,
y la quiere entenerme, que busque un traductor jiji :rolleyes:

Esto es lo que pienso:

1° Lo que pasó en esa Era, es pasado. ¿cómo puedo estar tranquila con eso? Porque los Beasties, como sabemos, ya pidieron disculpas sobre ello.

No soy una experta sobre música, ¿pero cuántos músicos más han hecho esto? ¿cuántos más han reconocido errores del pasado? Yo me saco el sombrero con estos tres hombres, porque pasaron de "chicos" a exactamente eso: hombres, hechos y derechos (correctos) :) y esa es justamente una de las grandes razones por lo cual yo los admiro.

Ese comportamiento y esas letras las comprendo bajo la cosmovisión de esa época (esos años) en que se vivía y por la edad de nuestros Beasties.

Esa "Era" es parte de la historia de nuestro Beasties, ¿por qué ocultarla entonces?

Eso es lo lindo de ellos, que pasaron de chicos buenos para la juerga a verdaderos hombres de respeto y admiración. Y como una vez dijo Adrock, que no le importaba lo que dijera el resto sobre este cambio, que sonaba hipócrita, pero que prefería eso a ser un "zombie" toda su vida.




2° Siempre habrán "hombres" en el BBMB que contestarán de mala manera, porque los seguidores de los Beasties no necesariamente son seguidores de su forma de ser o pensar... simplemente les gusta su "música". Los que amamos a los Beasties por todo lo que son, como músicos y personas, estoy segura, no caeríamos en comentarios que descalifican.

3° Entiendo que pueden haber mujeres que se sienten más sensibles con este tema. Pero supongo que deben ser fans más recientes de nuestros
B-Boys... quiero decir, que no conocen la "historia evolutiva" de nuestros Beasties, de sus letras y sentimientos. Es por esto que les llama la atención o les causa más impacto. Y lo digo yo, porque a mí eso me pasó, sobre todo cuando vi por primera vez ese video en donde Yauch ponía su mano dentro del pantalón de aquella chica. Y cuando escucho canciones del LTI me río y pienso... estos chicos, qué bien se la pasaron en su juventud...

Ah, yo soy una BeastieFan más nueva y siempre me pregunto ¿por qué las chichas de esa época les gustaban los Beastie? Con esas letras y sus presentaciones tan "masculinas" ... Quiero decir ¿cómo podían gustarles? Y creo que la respuesta me lleva a mi primer punto. En aquellos años esa era la cosmovisión... una sociedad llena de "hijos del patriarcado", una sociedad mucho más machista que la actual. ¿y qué podía esperarse de los Beastie Boys?


Hay aquí alguna chica que sea fan desde los inicios de nuestros Beasties????????????

Y eso es todo lo que tengo que decir :D Tati off.

#BeastieFansForever

Fuck this shit. :D

[fonky pizza]

I didn't look at PORKY'S video yet but I know it's golden!(y)

First off:
Young dudes do dumb shit, so do young women.

Yeah, and it's cool like that, if not, we'll never learn.

2nd: SEX DRUGS AND ROCK'N ROLL.
When these discussions start on the "beasties macho behaviour" I wonder if anyone has ever been in a punk band or anything....You treat the beasties like they were teachers or priests...is it a catholic band?!?:confused:(n)

3rd: I call total bullshit on whining on the internet about something that a beastieboy did in a video while real abuse and rape and exploitation is out there every minute.:mad::(

4th: Look at the beastie boys work, look at their videos, do they use sexism to sell? NO. do they use violence to sell? HELL NO! do they use negativity to sell? F*CK NO!

I don't like when people take themselves too seriously, especially on the internet. it's ok to be annoyed, and it's ok to reply and differ.

[Randetica]

Find me one person in this thread who said it was. This type of crap in the original post (in the other thread) is what annoyed most of us in the first place. What are we arguing here anyway?

"lets stop the bashing. everything they did was illegal but it was all in fun. they dont have to apoligize for anything. its called "entertainment.""

pshabi i know that was posted after my reply but those^ type of posts annoy me

like it is ok cause: the beasties did it or it was a long time ago or thats what guys do or it is no big deal, calm down or they been young and ready to partaayy etc.

[Franci]

Fuck this shit. :D


well... I've found it perfectly understandable :D :cool:

[pshabi]

""

pshabi i know that was posted after my reply but those^ type of posts annoy me

like it is ok cause: the beasties did it or it was a long time ago or thats what guys do or it is no big deal, calm down or they been young and ready to partaayy etc.

I see where you're coming from.

[JohnnyChavello]

I've been on these boards since they first started in the 90s and granted, I haven't read every post, but I don't remember this topic being discussed a million times. We have a search function. I bet I can find a lot more posts about playing dress up than I can about this. I would bet on this actually.

The responses to these women is WAYYYYY out of proportion. Come on people, pull it together now.

I've been on the boards for a while too, and people get shit for lots of different reasons. I've seen it happen over and over again. It is the Internet, after all. I think the first thing I ever posted here was a VERY mild criticism of Hello Nasty when the album first came out. I was attacked outright and told to get lost, not a true fan, etc.

I want to say again that my response to paperdali didn't have anything to do with feminism. I AM a feminist, natch. It had everything to do with, what I thought, was a patronizing attitude toward someone else's opinion on a pretty charged topic. I probably overreacted, but "fuck off" isn't the end of the world, is it? Maybe I see it differently, but it doesn't seem like much of an attack. Either way, paperdali, I would like to apologize for overreacting and for going at you in a way that was uncalled for. I'm serious about that. I wouldn't want to run anyone out of town and I feel like I probably contributed to a vibe that that's what's going on here.

My bigger criticism, though, and this still stands, is that I don't think people should wrap themselves in the flag of feminism, or any other 'ism (patriotism, for example) and be allowed to get away with shutting down all criticism as inherently sexist. Dali and WhoMoi both immediately assumed I was pissed off that women's issues were being discussed and that had absolutely nothing to do with it. It was a knee jerk reaction, one I think a lot of us have made over the years, to equate criticism that was directed at an individual with criticism of some larger idea that person happens to espouse. It's a little self-centered, and that's not to say I haven't been guilty of it myself at times, but nonetheless, that's how I see it.

Anyway, even if feminism isn't the drain that most threads have been circling the last few months, something's going on. Discussions now routinely end in these bitter, winner-take-all disputes. It's tiring. I'm not blameless at all, but it would be nice to see the mood lighten up a little bit.

[Uru-Nitro]

the beasties are the first who criticize their acts in the past. they changed, they grew. when they were in their late 10's and very early 20's they wrote a lot of disrespectful shit, but those were new-rich kids talking.

they had the strengh of mind enough to realize they were wrong.

and hey, they were stupid but at least they didnt punch rihanna in the face, right?

[Tati Pryor]

...

[JoLovesMCA]

3rd: I call total bullshit on whining on the internet about something that a beastieboy did in a video while real abuse and rape and exploitation is out there every minute.

4th: Look at the beastie boys work, look at their videos, do they use sexism to sell? NO. do they use violence to sell? HELL NO! do they use negativity to sell? F*CK NO!

I don't like when people take themselves too seriously, especially on the internet. it's ok to be annoyed, and it's ok to reply and differ.

(y)



Uru-Nitrothe
beasties are the first who criticize their acts in the past. they changed, they grew. when they were in their late 10's and very early 20's they wrote a lot of disrespectful shit, but those were new-rich kids talking.

they had the strengh of mind enough to realize they were wrong.

and hey, they were stupid but at least they didnt punch rihanna in the face, right?

(y)

[FLO MASTER]

but what people dont seem to understand that most, if not all was an act, or for the most part lyrics for their song.

ok, the beasties drinking beer on stage. adrock was what? 18 or 19? im sure he drank before he rapped about it and drank on stage and on the videos in new york its ILLEGAL to drink under the age of 21. who cares! its for entertainment.

they rap about "pulling out my jammy and squeezed off six". was he rapping about trying to kill someone? was he discharging bullets into the air? in both cases, they are both illegal.

who cares!!! its for fun!!!

im pretty sure the behind the scenes/backstage was an act. it seemed staged in some part. its all in fun.

[TreasureEverywh]

but what people dont seem to understand that most, if not all was an act, or for the most part lyrics for their song.

ok, the beasties drinking beer on stage. adrock was what? 18 or 19? im sure he drank before he rapped about it and drank on stage and on the videos in new york its ILLEGAL to drink under the age of 21. who cares! its for entertainment.

they rap about "pulling out my jammy and squeezed off six". was he rapping about trying to kill someone? was he discharging bullets into the air? in both cases, they are both illegal.

who cares!!! its for fun!!!

im pretty sure the behind the scenes/backstage was an act. it seemed staged in some part. its all in fun.

(This is veering off topic, but I find it interesting to think about when/why/how we start taking lyrics at face value. Somewhere between "I shot a man in Brooklyn just to watch him die" and "I'd like to have a say on the income tax, don't wanna help build bombs and that's the facts", presumably, but how do we decide for ourselves what's what? By album? Probability? By what we prefer to be sincere or to be just messing or playing a role?

Anyway, this might also have been discussed to death in the past like other topics apparently have, but if anyone's arsed, we could always have a thread on it.)

[CoolAsACucumber]

Jesus Christ on a cracker.....so MCA, Adrock, and Mike D were the only 20-something guys getting serious ass in the 80's in NYC?

No....it just wasn't captured in film.

Holy christ, people :rolleyes:

[WhoMoi?]

I want to say again that my response to paperdali didn't have anything to do with feminism. I AM a feminist, natch. It had everything to do with, what I thought, was a patronizing attitude toward someone else's opinion on a pretty charged topic. I probably overreacted, but "fuck off" isn't the end of the world, is it? Maybe I see it differently, but it doesn't seem like much of an attack. Either way, paperdali, I would like to apologize for overreacting and for going at you in a way that was uncalled for. I'm serious about that. I wouldn't want to run anyone out of town and I feel like I probably contributed to a vibe that that's what's going on here.

My bigger criticism, though, and this still stands, is that I don't think people should wrap themselves in the flag of feminism, or any other 'ism (patriotism, for example) and be allowed to get away with shutting down all criticism as inherently sexist. Dali and WhoMoi both immediately assumed I was pissed off that women's issues were being discussed and that had absolutely nothing to do with it. It was a knee jerk reaction, one I think a lot of us have made over the years, to equate criticism that was directed at an individual with criticism of some larger idea that person happens to espouse. It's a little self-centered, and that's not to say I haven't been guilty of it myself at times, but nonetheless, that's how I see it.

Sorry for the misinterpretation of the reason behind your comment in the other thread.

I do want to say something regarding the terms "self-centered" and "narcissistic/ism" that people have been using here and there in this thread...
I'm not sure those terms are really all that accurate for describing people's methods of interpreting the "fuck off" comments, etc. We all view things through our own perspective, right? It's all we have, until someone explains something to us that makes us see otherwise...which is exactly why I'm asking for explanations.

Anyway - thank you for explaining what was behind your reaction. It helps a LOT. That's why I started this thread, really, in the hope that people would explain so I could understand, and so maybe people could understand me and others, etc., etc., etc. And that's happening, so yeah...that's wicked pissah. (y)

[WhoMoi?]

I've been on these boards since they first started in the 90s and granted, I haven't read every post, but I don't remember this topic being discussed a million times. We have a search function. I bet I can find a lot more posts about playing dress up than I can about this. I would bet on this actually.

The responses to these women is WAYYYYY out of proportion. Come on people, pull it together now.

This is pretty much 100% the perspective I have been coming from. As you said in your other post, it's clearly a sensitive topic.

[Headgotchecked]

Man, MCA spent so much time and energy trying to get right on this issue. You never saw Gene Simmons make such a repentance, Robert Plant never apologized for the disgusting stuff that went on as part of Led Zeppelin, and then write songs about the end of the disrespect of women... I guess I'm struggling to understand why we as a message board have even made this choice to obsess over what happened when Adam was just a pup, too young to ever know what to do with fame and stature like he had. I once saw an interview with Mike Tyson, reflecting on the utter insanity of those few years from 18 to his mid-twenties when he was knocking everyone out, and he downright called it sad that we as a society would give 60 million dollars to an 18 year old, no rules, no discipline. He wasn't ready for that, and for the same reasons, neither was Adam I don't think...

However, to label Yauch as an abuser off of that footage is to claim a modicum of knowledge concerning that event that quite frankly, I strongly doubt you possess. As I said originally, this kind of stuff happens all over the place in music. And for this, I just want to know -- when can we start to have a conversation about the woman's motives and role that she played? I mean seriously, we're going to really just keep the spotlight centered on Yauch? Man... fuck that. I understand that it is a bit sexist to look at women as play toys, but I will happily also proclaim that it's also sexist to paint women as helpless, fragile porcelain dolls as well. At some point, the accountability has to be leveled on both sides.

Regardless, I still stand proud to be counted as a fan of the band, and an admirer of Yauch and what he grew to stand for.

[fonky pizza]

Man, MCA spent so much time and energy trying to get right on this issue. You never saw Gene Simmons make such a repentance, Robert Plant never apologized for the disgusting stuff that went on as part of Led Zeppelin, and then write songs about the end of the disrespect of women... I guess I'm struggling to understand why we as a message board have even made this choice to obsess over what happened when Adam was just a pup, too young to ever know what to do with fame and stature like he had. I once saw an interview with Mike Tyson, reflecting on the utter insanity of those few years from 18 to his mid-twenties when he was knocking everyone out, and he downright called it sad that we as a society would give 60 million dollars to an 18 year old, no rules, no discipline. He wasn't ready for that, and for the same reasons, neither was Adam I don't think...

However, to label Yauch as an abuser off of that footage is to claim a modicum of knowledge concerning that event that quite frankly, I strongly doubt you possess. As I said originally, this kind of stuff happens all over the place in music. And for this, I just want to know -- when can we start to have a conversation about the woman's motives and role that she played? I mean seriously, we're going to really just keep the spotlight centered on Yauch? Man... fuck that. I understand that it is a bit sexist to look at women as play toys, but I will happily also proclaim that it's also sexist to paint women as helpless, fragile porcelain dolls as well. At some point, the accountability has to be leveled on both sides.

Regardless, I still stand proud to be counted as a fan of the band, and an admirer of Yauch and what he grew to stand for.

I agree completly on what you say and thank you especially for this:I understand that it is a bit sexist to look at women as play toys, but I will happily also proclaim that it's also sexist to paint women as helpless, fragile porcelain dolls as well. At some point, the accountability has to be leveled on both sides. :)

[Kid Presentable]

Man, MCA spent so much time and energy trying to get right on this issue. You never saw Gene Simmons make such a repentance, Robert Plant never apologized for the disgusting stuff that went on as part of Led Zeppelin, and then write songs about the end of the disrespect of women... I guess I'm struggling to understand why we as a message board have even made this choice to obsess over what happened when Adam was just a pup, too young to ever know what to do with fame and stature like he had. I once saw an interview with Mike Tyson, reflecting on the utter insanity of those few years from 18 to his mid-twenties when he was knocking everyone out, and he downright called it sad that we as a society would give 60 million dollars to an 18 year old, no rules, no discipline. He wasn't ready for that, and for the same reasons, neither was Adam I don't think...

However, to label Yauch as an abuser off of that footage is to claim a modicum of knowledge concerning that event that quite frankly, I strongly doubt you possess. As I said originally, this kind of stuff happens all over the place in music. And for this, I just want to know -- when can we start to have a conversation about the woman's motives and role that she played? I mean seriously, we're going to really just keep the spotlight centered on Yauch? Man... fuck that. I understand that it is a bit sexist to look at women as play toys, but I will happily also proclaim that it's also sexist to paint women as helpless, fragile porcelain dolls as well. At some point, the accountability has to be leveled on both sides.

Regardless, I still stand proud to be counted as a fan of the band, and an admirer of Yauch and what he grew to stand for.

(y)

[TreasureEverywh]

I agree completly on what you say and thank you especially for this:I understand that it is a bit sexist to look at women as play toys, but I will happily also proclaim that it's also sexist to paint women as helpless, fragile porcelain dolls as well. At some point, the accountability has to be leveled on both sides. :)

I'm in two minds about this statement. On the one hand, I want to clap at the first part, but on the other I'm uncomfortable with the use of the word "accountability" because it's dangerously close to "responsibility" and "guilt".

It seems to me that a few issues have been mixed into an explosive cocktail here, i.e.
1 the (actions and) mindset of the LTI era Beasties in general, which, as we all know, didn't last long and has since been fully reversed, and then some
2 a single incident from said era
3 ideas about the "roles" of men and women in general when interactions go wrong in a certain way

Point 1, it seems, really has been discussed plenty, and there appears to be a broad consensus. Tick.

Point 2, as has been said, afaik none of us really know why it was on the video, whether it was acted or real, how the girl in question felt, or anything else for that matter. Therefore it's kind of moot to discuss our opinions about it, given that we don't know what "it" is. Still, people have gut reactions, so given Point 1, fair enough, let them voice those I say. Especially since, in this of all places, it's clearly "Hate the sin, not the (then) sinner". Which of course you can only do if there is a sin in the first place... Which brings me to

Point 3. Oops, I may have to expand.

3a. If you think (not know!) that the girl happily went along with the situation, then of course anybody bringing this even in the vicinity of concepts like "abuse" in general is going to enrage you and get a "fuck off" for their troubles. But if you believe (not know!) is that she was uncomfortable and just put up with it because she felt pressured, then the link is obvious. Source of conflict right there.

3b. If you believe that, in a situation like this, a girl who feels uncomfortable only has to speak up and slap a hand that creeps down her pants or onto her bum or tits because she's not a doll, you'll also be annoyed at suggestions of abuse, probably. I happen to find this a dangerous road to go down, although I'm (obviously, duh!) all in favour of assertiveness in these cases.

3c. Why? Because firstly people are different, some find it easier to speak out against things they don't like than others. We shouldn't fault those in the latter group for being shy and say, "Ha, you only had to say something. You let and therefore made this happen." And secondly because, in a situation like the one that triggered this whole discussion, it would have been comparatively easy to get out of it if she didn't enjoy it, but I fear that the boundaries to situations where you can't do anything to get out of it are too fuzzy. The obvious danger is that afterwards someone will come along and say, "You should have just ....."

So there. I wasn't comfortable with something and I said it. I'm not a doll. :)

[WhoMoi?]

Thanks again, everyone for your candid and thoughtful responses.(y)

I'm going to address another common trend from a lot of the posts here (it was brought up again in the last few posts, which reminded me that I had meant to comment on it)...

The word "abuse" ....important things I want you to know about my stance on the use of that word in the other thread:

1. I do NOT believe that that was what occurred, either in that video or any other case involving Beastie Boys. I said that in the other thread, but just want to reiterate because it's really important to me that people know where I stand on that!!!

2. My reason for starting this thread was because of a lot of incidents where some guys here seem to choose the fuck off/shut up response toward a girl who expresses an uncomfortable reaction to an old-timey Beastie video or whatever.
I'm realizing now that my having reached a point where I wanted to address this more generic issue was probably ill-timed, given that I didn't agree with the "abuse" allegation mentioned by one female poster in this particular case.
And I'm really sorry for my shitty timing on that.
I was more looking at the responses toward paperdali, and that made me remember responses toward her and other girls in some other threads, and I got caught up in questioning those recurring types of situations.

Anyway...my poor timing aside, I'm still grateful for everyone's willingness to keep it civil here and discuss. Thank you. (y):)

[CoolAsACucumber]

Man, MCA spent so much time and energy trying to get right on this issue. You never saw Gene Simmons make such a repentance, Robert Plant never apologized for the disgusting stuff that went on as part of Led Zeppelin, and then write songs about the end of the disrespect of women... I guess I'm struggling to understand why we as a message board have even made this choice to obsess over what happened when Adam was just a pup, too young to ever know what to do with fame and stature like he had. I once saw an interview with Mike Tyson, reflecting on the utter insanity of those few years from 18 to his mid-twenties when he was knocking everyone out, and he downright called it sad that we as a society would give 60 million dollars to an 18 year old, no rules, no discipline. He wasn't ready for that, and for the same reasons, neither was Adam I don't think...

However, to label Yauch as an abuser off of that footage is to claim a modicum of knowledge concerning that event that quite frankly, I strongly doubt you possess. As I said originally, this kind of stuff happens all over the place in music. And for this, I just want to know -- when can we start to have a conversation about the woman's motives and role that she played? I mean seriously, we're going to really just keep the spotlight centered on Yauch? Man... fuck that. I understand that it is a bit sexist to look at women as play toys, but I will happily also proclaim that it's also sexist to paint women as helpless, fragile porcelain dolls as well. At some point, the accountability has to be leveled on both sides.

Regardless, I still stand proud to be counted as a fan of the band, and an admirer of Yauch and what he grew to stand for.

Dude!! Awesome post! As a woman myself, I get tired of the making us out like porceline dolls that need to treated like glass.

[Brass Monk]

“It wasn’t faked-there were really naked girls running around everywhere. Tons and tons and tons of liquor and beer and just tons of debauchery. It was out of control. I’ll never forget it. It made spring break look like tiddlywinks.”
Jimmy Drescher, Murphy’s law


“You can’t make someone drink beer onstage every night. I mean, those guys did their thing. I lent Adam Yauch my camera while I was shooting pictures from the front of the stage. I let him have my camera, one of the few people I trusted-and he put it up a girl’s dress to get a picture of her underwear. They came from a punk rock background. They should know better than that. But they went out and they played that game and they loved it. They had a good time with it.”
Glen E. Friedman

I've read on this thread some posters say that they thought that the LTI antics were some sort of a conscious joke to mock that sort of behavior. That is utterly ridiculous as the quotes above help to show. It happened, it's very well documented. No revisionist history please.

[JoLovesMCA]

Man, MCA spent so much time and energy trying to get right on this issue. You never saw Gene Simmons make such a repentance, Robert Plant never apologized for the disgusting stuff that went on as part of Led Zeppelin, and then write songs about the end of the disrespect of women... I guess I'm struggling to understand why we as a message board have even made this choice to obsess over what happened when Adam was just a pup, too young to ever know what to do with fame and stature like he had. I once saw an interview with Mike Tyson, reflecting on the utter insanity of those few years from 18 to his mid-twenties when he was knocking everyone out, and he downright called it sad that we as a society would give 60 million dollars to an 18 year old, no rules, no discipline. He wasn't ready for that, and for the same reasons, neither was Adam I don't think...

However, to label Yauch as an abuser off of that footage is to claim a modicum of knowledge concerning that event that quite frankly, I strongly doubt you possess. As I said originally, this kind of stuff happens all over the place in music. And for this, I just want to know -- when can we start to have a conversation about the woman's motives and role that she played? I mean seriously, we're going to really just keep the spotlight centered on Yauch? Man... fuck that. I understand that it is a bit sexist to look at women as play toys, but I will happily also proclaim that it's also sexist to paint women as helpless, fragile porcelain dolls as well. At some point, the accountability has to be leveled on both sides.

Regardless, I still stand proud to be counted as a fan of the band, and an admirer of Yauch and what he grew to stand for.

This post made my day! ;)

[MCA4ever]

I've read on this thread some posters say that they thought that the LTI antics were some sort of a conscious joke to mock that sort of behavior. That is utterly ridiculous as the quotes above help to show. It happened, it's very well documented. No revisionist history please.

I think people get confused with the FFYR parody. Because they were pretending to be a bunch of idiots. I think someone started that rumor based off of that story that everything they did was just part of the joke.

[CoolAsACucumber]

Even the Boys said the FFYR was a parody, but in their Fresh Air Interview I think it was Adrock that said that they became exactly what they hated the most. So they admit it, it's done...they have more than made up for it.

[Headgotchecked]

To Treasureeverywhere:

You could be right.

I'm not sure if that's what you were expecting to hear, but in the end it is the unwavering truth. We could have very well been witnessing a woman, too mortified to say or do anything, get felt up when she didn't want to. I can't deny it; I don't have all of the facts.

However, no one on this MB does, either. As such, I could be right as well. I don't know what else to say, except that I guess I feel that I dont understand what the arguing points are, when we all know that we don't have the facts. Now we're just kind of bantering about societal/gender/sexual issues, which is fine and all I suppose, but it's fair for me to doubt the contextual relevance to the BBoys and Adam.

[TreasureEverywh]

To Treasureeverywhere:

You could be right.

I'm not sure if that's what you were expecting to hear, but in the end it is the unwavering truth. We could have very well been witnessing a woman, too mortified to say or do anything, get felt up when she didn't want to. I can't deny it; I don't have all of the facts.

However, no one on this MB does, either. As such, I could be right as well. I don't know what else to say, except that I guess I feel that I dont understand what the arguing points are, when we all know that we don't have the facts. Now we're just kind of bantering about societal/gender/sexual issues, which is fine and all I suppose, but it's fair for me to doubt the contextual relevance to the BBoys and Adam.

Thanks for responding.

Hm. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by either of us being right... on that specific video snippet, I have no opinion on what anybody involved that evening may or may not have thought or felt etc. because as you say, we can't know.

What I think I am right on, though, is that we need to keep the issues separate, i.e. are we talking about what the Beastie Boys were like back in the day, are we throwing out conjectures about a certain event with specific persons involved, are we talking about men and women in general? Mixing them up gets us exchanges like "You said Yauch abused her!" - "No, I never!" - "Yes, you did!". And that's just ugly.

[eargogglez]

Man, I gotta say, in my opinion the Beastie Boys went soft the day they started respecting women!

:D

[Sir SkratchaLot]

As I said originally, this kind of stuff happens all over the place in music. And for this, I just want to know -- when can we start to have a conversation about the woman's motives and role that she played? I mean seriously, we're going to really just keep the spotlight centered on Yauch? Man... fuck that. I understand that it is a bit sexist to look at women as play toys, but I will happily also proclaim that it's also sexist to paint women as helpless, fragile porcelain dolls as well. At some point, the accountability has to be leveled on both sides.

LOL, homeboy just brought up the "but look at what she was wearing" defense and half of you gave that shit the thumbs up. Boooo.

[TreasureEverywh]

LOL, homeboy just brought up the "but what she was wearing" defense and half of you gave that shit the thumbs up. Boooo.

I love you.

[fonky pizza]

LOL, homeboy just brought up the "but what she was wearing" defense and half of you gave that shit the thumbs up. Boooo.

I didn't read that in it.
Talking about the girls role is not immediately saying: look she's wearing a very tight skirt and huge décolleté, what a bitch she deserves it.

It's interesting to see the girls' role because in general the only blame for women is to be in a woman 's body(covered/naked - attractive-not attractive and so on). Women and men shall be free to wear what they want! We are blamed for our body! You know that there are men that fight prejudice because they want to wear skirts? It's true and they're not only scottish!:D

[fonky pizza]

I'm in two minds about this statement. On the one hand, I want to clap at the first part, but on the other I'm uncomfortable with the use of the word "accountability" because it's dangerously close to "responsibility" and "guilt".


Guilt is the opposite of responsibility in my vocabulary.

If someone is guilty there's obviously someone who is a victim.

If someone is responsible at least one of the part is conscious.

[Headgotchecked]

LOL, homeboy just brought up the "but what she was wearing" defense and half of you gave that shit the thumbs up. Boooo.

Help me to understand, am I wrong for not wanting to put Yauch in a vacuum and criticize him? I don't understand what the harm in asking that both parties be questioned equally and fairly.

We may have to civilly agree to disagree here, I don't think that I will ever be of a mindset where I don't want to understand all that there is to know about both parties in such a contentious manner -- if I am following you correctly.

[TreasureEverywh]

Guilt is the opposite of responsibility in my vocabulary.

If someone is guilty there's obviously someone who is a victim.

If someone is responsible at least one of the part is conscious.

What I meant was: if we hold someone accountable, that's very similar to looking at how they are responsible for / guilty of something. Essentially what SirSkratchALot put a lot more succinctly...

[Headgotchecked]

Thanks for responding.

Hm. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by either of us being right... on that specific video snippet, I have no opinion on what anybody involved that evening may or may not have thought or felt etc. because as you say, we can't know.

What I think I am right on, though, is that we need to keep the issues separate, i.e. are we talking about what the Beastie Boys were like back in the day, are we throwing out conjectures about a certain event with specific persons involved, are we talking about men and women in general? Mixing them up gets us exchanges like "You said Yauch abused her!" - "No, I never!" - "Yes, you did!". And that's just ugly.

My apologies, I may have misunderstood you. I thought in the part "3c" that you were indicating an overwhelming chance of guilt on Adam's part because of how you were describing the complexity of withdrawing from a situation like that as a woman. In any case, as I comprehend you to be saying that we have to be careful not to contaminate one situation with the thoughts and viewpoints of others, I say to that, that I agree.

[TreasureEverywh]

My apologies, I may have misunderstood you. I thought in the part "3c" that you were indicating an overwhelming chance of guilt on Adam's part because of how you were describing the complexity of withdrawing from a situation like that as a woman.


Woh! That's not at all what I meant. I'm glad we cleared this up!

In any case, as I comprehend you to be saying that we have to be careful not to contaminate one situation with the thoughts and viewpoints of others, I say to that, that I agree.

Yep, exactly.

[coreyisking711]

this board's been raped by newbies and for that i am offended...
(y)

[fonky pizza]

What I meant was: if we hold someone accountable, that's very similar to looking at how they are responsible for / guilty of something. Essentially what SirSkratchALot put a lot more succinctly...

Treasure everywhere, especially within yourself.

The conversation is all yours. As I said before I have better priorities. Cheers.

[Headgotchecked]

What I meant was: if we hold someone accountable, that's very similar to looking at how they are responsible for / guilty of something. Essentially what SirSkratchALot put a lot more succinctly...

It is similar, only if you feel that the parties that wish to collect information on the circumstances wish to have a fair and balanced inquiry, or if they are trying to engage in an all-out witch hunt. To be clear, I never advocated anything indicating that I would want to know how the woman was doing bad, or creating a situation that she could be harmed in. You know, the traditional witch hunt, self-incrimination, et al. I am however interested, in an innocuous fashion, what brought the girl to that point, if she was interested in getting an autograph or if she actively wanted to hook up with Adam.

I feel that you can ask for someone's account (there's that infernal word again!) without trying to purposefully paint them into a corner.

[TreasureEverywh]

I feel that you can ask for someone's account (there's that infernal word again!) without trying to purposefully paint them into a corner.

True.

[Brass Monk]

Even the Boys said the FFYR was a parody, but in their Fresh Air Interview I think it was Adrock that said that they became exactly what they hated the most. So they admit it, it's done...they have more than made up for it.

The "we-became-what-we-were-making-fun-of" argument is so lame. I love the BBoys as much as anybody, but you gotta roll your eyes when you here that. It's really an attempt to duck responsibility. If you wanna own up to it, just say "we, did it and regret it", which they also have said.
But if it's prefaced or book ended by a comment like "we-became-what-we-were-making-fun-of" , that is just insulting people's intelligence. It's almost like a highly nuanced, back-handed type of apology. My previous comment contained quotes of people who were there that have this sentiment.

And yeah, they have more than made up for it (although I don't see what they did as the war crime many here seem to think it is, <cue the womenist response hate comments>)

[CoolAsACucumber]

I see what you are saying, Brass Monk. It isn't like they were committing acts of great atrocity. I think a lot of us have things we aren't proud of, things that we did that might come back to haunt us, things we did in our youth that weren't the best example of living, but to me there is no reason to continually hash it out.

They had a good time in their youth. So what. How many of us have stories from our younger years that weren't our best moments but we still see as good times?

Like I said, these three weren't the only ones and they are only human...not supergods of morality.

That said....I love Adam Yauch. I miss him like hell. I respect all that he did while he was here and think that he was a beautiful human being. Nothing is going to change that for me.

Peace, y'all!

[Sir SkratchaLot]

Help me to understand, am I wrong for not wanting to put Yauch in a vacuum and criticize him? I don't understand what the harm in asking that both parties be questioned equally and fairly.

We may have to civilly agree to disagree here, I don't think that I will ever be of a mindset where I don't want to understand all that there is to know about both parties in such a contentious manner -- if I am following you correctly.

The thing is, I don't think they ever attacked Yauch in general, they just critisized what he did in that video. It was never a wholesale assault on his character but it appears that people are treating it like that. It's kind of weird actually because we definately know that MCA himself wouldn't condone what he did back then now. So we have a bunch of people harshing on these young women for expressing a critisizm that Yauch would have expressed himself.

I just think it's sad that in this day and age we've got people, women even, who are trying twist it around to blame the women in that video. Had they said "Hey Yauch, get over here and stick your hand down my pants" then YES, okay that's obviously gives him a license to ill. Otherwise it's this shady situation where there are video cameras and clebreties and all kinds of pressure on these women and you just can't assume "they were asking for it."

[Headgotchecked]

The thing is, I don't think they ever attacked Yauch in general, they just critisized what he did in that video. It was never a wholesale assault on his character but it appears that people are treating it like that. It's kind of weird actually because we definately know that MCA himself wouldn't condone what he did back then now. So we have a bunch of people harshing on these young women for expressing a critisizm that Yauch would have expressed himself.

I just think it's sad that in this day and age we've got people, women even, who are trying twist it around to blame the women in that video. Had they said "Hey Yauch, get over here and stick your hand down my pants" then YES, okay that's obviously gives him a license to ill. Otherwise it's this shady situation where there are video cameras and clebreties and all kinds of pressure on these women and you just can't assume "they were asking for it."

Well put, and I for one would like to say that we're definitely on the same side of things. I just don't want people to think that I'm purposefully trying to put the woman in a negative light. Or Yauch, for that matter -- I just am curious about context, is all. This I think is our only divergence here, I do believe that there is a difference between information-gathering, and using the "what was she wearing" line of criticism, as you put it. I hope that you can grant me the line of credit to tread that line.

[Brass Monk]

I see what you are saying, Brass Monk. It isn't like they were committing acts of great atrocity. I think a lot of us have things we aren't proud of, things that we did that might come back to haunt us, things we did in our youth that weren't the best example of living, but to me there is no reason to continually hash it out.

They had a good time in their youth. So what. How many of us have stories from our younger years that weren't our best moments but we still see as good times?

Like I said, these three weren't the only ones and they are only human...not supergods of morality.

That said....I love Adam Yauch. I miss him like hell. I respect all that he did while he was here and think that he was a beautiful human being. Nothing is going to change that for me.

Peace, y'all!

Yep.

But there is a segment of this board that seems to want to talk about the LTI era (I and many others do, just like all of the Beastie eras), but at the same time doesn't want to talk about the LTI era, because it offends them morally (not I). My request to these folks is to step away and let LTI fans talk about this 5-star mic album and its accompanying era they are interested in (it's also a bit annoying when these same individuals chime in with back handed compliments belittling the album's quality or significance, obviously for the earlier mentioned reasons). You shouldn't jump on a soapbox and make it a feminism thread (although these are the issues appropriate for this thread), when you think you detect something about it you don't like. Obviously this will make LTI threads less active, but its a small price to pay.

[Sir SkratchaLot]

Well put, and I for one would like to say that we're definitely on the same side of things. I just don't want people to think that I'm purposefully trying to put the woman in a negative light. Or Yauch, for that matter -- I just am curious about context, is all. This I think is our only divergence here, I do believe that there is a difference between information-gathering, and using the "what was she wearing" line of criticism, as you put it. I hope that you can grant me the line of credit to tread that line.

It's cool.

All I'm about is trying to find a way so we can direct some of this anger toward the "where do I buy Mike-D's socks" threads. I'm not per se predjudiced against people who like to play dress up but I do think we're on shakey psychological ground when grown ass adults try to dress up like the Beastie Boys on a regular basis. AND, I think it's safe to say that such topics have been discussed into the ground.

[Franci]

The thing is, I don't think they ever attacked Yauch in general, they just critisized what he did in that video. It was never a wholesale assault on his character but it appears that people are treating it like that. It's kind of weird actually because we definately know that MCA himself wouldn't condone what he did back then now. So we have a bunch of people harshing on these young women for expressing a critisizm that Yauch would have expressed himself.

I just think it's sad that in this day and age we've got people, women even, who are trying twist it around to blame the women in that video. Had they said "Hey Yauch, get over here and stick your hand down my pants" then YES, okay that's obviously gives him a license to ill. Otherwise it's this shady situation where there are video cameras and clebreties and all kinds of pressure on these women and you just can't assume "they were asking for it."


Did I miss something? :confused:
I don't think anyone blamed the girl
The fact is: just because we know NOTHING about that situation, we can only speculate... so what is the point?
I think everybody agrees on the fact that abuse is wrong and awful.. but was that the case?!
We can discuss it forever and we will never know

[FLO MASTER]

im sure they signed a letter of consent for the filming. so, anything goes!:D

[paperdali]

What irritates me is that whenever anyone brings up the LTI era of misogyny in context of their later embrace of feminism, someone will inevitably make accusations of "obsessing" or "harping" on the past. WTF? How can you acknowledge how far they've come without discussing the starting point, which was really, really, really low?

In the thread that spawned this one, the actual video was part of the original post. Of course it's going to be discussed! But that's "harping" on the past. No, it's acknowledging the past, and how that past informed later music, interviews, and their activism. It's important. I also feel like anyone complaining about discussing their LTI misogyny is sort of willfully blind to the grammar of it. They were shitty. Past tense. They learned, they got better. A lot of people don't. They justify or ignore their pasts because it's uncomfortable. The Beastie Boys held the mirror up to themselves and took responsibility, and that's worth celebrating and embracing. That's all I'm ever really saying about it.

Also, out of dozens and dozens and dozens of threads discussing everything from Mike's new wallpaper to favorite Yauch solos, it's been brought into the conversation like four times. But that's too much? Again, WTF? One of those threads is actually about how Song for the Man gave strength to women sick of being harassed.

For those of you who have been part of the message board community for a long time, it's been discussed to death for you, and I get that. Been there.

Yauch's journey from the dude who stuck his hands in a fan's vagina on tape to a champion for women's rights is part of our memories of him and part of his amazing legacy. I haven't seen anyone writing him off for his past actions or disparaging him for it at all.

This is part of their history. It's an ugly part. So what? Acknowledging is not harping or obsessing when we're talking about how great Sure Shot or Song for the Man or Adam H's speech at MTV was when he talked about the assaults and rapes happening at festival shows.

It is disturbing to see that video. It's supposed to be disturbing. I'm sure it's difficult for them. But it does inform what they became later.

If anything it's inspiring to see that someone who could behave in such a completely ugly manner toward other people could not just turn things around but also become a real force for changing people's attitudes about sexism. It's a powerful message when you can say, "been there, did shitty things, regret it." Why can't we talk about that, but we can talk about Mike's fucking wallpaper?

I don't harp on or obsess over LTI. I do, in fact, harp on and obsess over what Sure Shot meant to me at a very shitty time in my life when i was getting harassed. It lifted me up. And because of how things ended up for my favorite band, gave me hope that someday, the guy that was making me afraid to go to work would see things differently, too.

None of the bullshit whining about "harping" on the past makes any sort of sense to me. If anyone thinks that's what it is, you're wrong. Most hero's journeys start with an ugly past. The hero overcomes that past and makes good. Fuck yeah I'm going to acknowledge that journey. It's important.

[LilTreyR]

I get what you're sayin. At any given time there are possibly 15 different conversations going on around here. No one is forced into a conversation. It is quite comical when people say "I don't know why I got involved" or "see I didn't want to say anything" The instigators that keep calling for trouble dont help either. Move along. Peacefully.

[Sir SkratchaLot]

im sure they signed a letter of consent for the filming. so, anything goes!:D

Oh my god what a rapist!:eek:

[Sir SkratchaLot]

Yes, that was joke. It's the internet, right? Lighten up and all that . . .

[eargogglez]

im sure they signed a letter of consent for the filming. so, anything goes!:D

Actually, they didn't. The Beasties ended up getting sued by one of the girls' Fathers over it and he won the case and Def Jam had to cease and desist putting the video out.

The way I see it is:

The girl didn't protest or try to back away when MCA was starting to put his hand down her pants and she looked like she was enjoying it! Why do you think those girls were backstage in the first place?! Wake up people! That's what groupies are for! Duh! :D

You be the judge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P38eypsTCFk

[LucieT]

She said "nooooooooo" and for you she is enjoying it?

Groupies are there to be fucked ? yeah of course that's the women role, being a hole when men need it...so is your mum !!

[eargogglez]

She said "nooooooooo" and for you she is enjoying it?

When a woman says "no" it actually means "yes". I know this cuz I take psychology.:D

Groupies are there to be fucked ? yeah of course that's the women role, being a hole when men need it...so is your mum !!

That's why they call me a "Motherfucker"!:D

[eargogglez]

Oh yeah, Lucie, I left my whiffle ball bat at your place the last time I wuz over. Please don't wash it! oxoxox :D

[YoungRemy]

She said "nooooooooo" and for you she is enjoying it?

Groupies are there to be fucked ? yeah of course that's the women role, being a hole when men need it...

um, some are.

yes, absolutely.

is this an entirely made up stigma to you?

it was prevalent in the 1980's. hair bands, glam rock, heavy metal. the musicians and the groupies were equally complicit.

I'm sorry you don't recognize that.

that being said this eargogglez is a rude crude dude.

[BboyLover#1]

I'm so outraged by this that I started a 4th Twitter account. Please follow me @handsdownpants. Please. Look at me, please.

[eargogglez]

that being said this eargogglez is a rude crude dude.

Thanks fer da props dude! My MC name is "Steev FuckzhorzG" fer a reason! :D

For those that need some enlightenment as to what the groupie scene is all about, ch-check out this documentary from the UK in 1970 called "Groupies" (tragically Part 4 is missing:()

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3cQLpDQYv8

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9H_9XYkAy0

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcMTtUMUAqU

Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuVA5fDsh0Y

Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MesMlOT18Q

Part 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpGioWFa4kg

Part 8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms_V9s7eaLE

Part 9: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJc9cR0ivt0

Here's a Hard Copy episode where groupies share their secrets!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6wZoYMS2HM

And here's a 1986 doucmentary about groupies called "Behind the Stage Door" where the Beasties', "She's On It" is in the soundtrack!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDSp4MOWE-A&feature=related

etc.,etc.,etc.,

:D

[LucieT]

lol I don't think he's "rude", personaly I totaly imagine him like the smiley he keeps using: a complete retarded dumb ass smiling probably thinking that I will be shocked one second by his immature sexual responses..

[eargogglez]

:Dlol I don't think he's "rude", personnally I totally imagine him like the smiley he keeps using: a complete retarded dumb ass smiling probably thinking that I will be shocked one second by his immature sexual responses...

...when actually I get totally aroused, and all hot and bothered and then I have to either go take a cold shower or go ride a horse bareback!:o"

Yo girl, I think it's time you take a trip out to Canada! Letz doo dis! (and don't forget to bring my whiffle ball bat!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0oALRL7uyY

[Sir SkratchaLot]

I rest my case.

[Kid Presentable]

LOL, homeboy just brought up the "but look at what she was wearing" defense and half of you gave that shit the thumbs up. Boooo.

No he didn't. Women can be held accountable for their decisions. And accountability does not imply guilt or blame in the slightest. It's about making decisions and defending them.

[LuciferHam]

This is a lame as thread.

[frank1271]

(y)This is a lame as thread.

(y)

[fonky pizza]

Actually, they didn't. The Beasties ended up getting sued by one of the girls' Fathers over it and he won the case and Def Jam had to cease and desist putting the video out.

The way I see it is:

The girl didn't protest or try to back away when MCA was starting to put his hand down her pants and she looked like she was enjoying it! Why do you think those girls were backstage in the first place?! Wake up people! That's what groupies are for! Duh! :D

You be the judge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P38eypsTCFk

Woah! The 80's!!! So retarded and fun! Check the haircuts and all(y)

The Judge Says: "Take your hands off Mike D, you dumb cop!"

[LucieT]

Can I say this?
Is there any chance that the girl would be actually friend or even mca's girlfriend at the time? That would confirm my theory: most of it was staged...and done with friends of them...

http://www.beastieboysgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=399&pid=3121#top_display_media

This girl looks similar...but I'm maybe wrong actually...

[Megalon X]

I didn't read the thread in question. In fact, I really don't want to. I haven't seen the video in question either. But if I can add something to conversation here:

1. I don't understand why the term "feminism" has to be brought into this conversation. Something is either wrong or it isn't. If something biased happened against some that was Asian, we don't have to consider it from the prospective of "Asianism."

So bringing that into the conversation I think kind of muddies the waters for whatever point you were trying to make. I studied feminism in school and consider myself pretty fucking liberal and very pro-women, but there's huge problems with the philosophy of that specific "ism," it being obsessed with somewhat sexist gender norms being my biggest problem with it. I think at some point during the formative years of feminism, there was a movement to kick lesbians out of it and other such things that were kind of ridiculous. Over all, I still feel the the theoretical principals were really designed to only benefit certain women and not others.

If you start using that terminology instead of it just being a discussion about the subject and women's take on it, it brings in all this other baggage and it's going to turn people off, especially guys for reasons that aren't totally bullshit.

2. I could see though why this thread was made though without even reading it. A few people here are obviously huge jackasses and want to dominate the forum with their point of view and childish macho behavior. There's at least one person here that is probably 45 years old and still living out his hip hop fantasies from 1988. It's just kind of sad when I see people acting like that on the fucking internet of all places. It's pretty pathetic actually. No one is impressed you "sonned" someone on a message board. This is generally a problem with hip hop forums and not forums for other genres of music, but it's still a bit stupid.

[FLO MASTER]

Can I say this?
Is there any chance that the girl would be actually friend or even mca's girlfriend at the time? That would confirm my theory: most of it was staged...and done with friends of them...

http://www.beastieboysgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=399&pid=3121#top_display_media

This girl looks similar...but I'm maybe wrong actually...

she looks pr

[JoLovesMCA]

she looks pr

It's Def Jam receptionist. Although I've seen a lot of photos of her and MCA.. but she couldn't be the girl in the vid....

[FLO MASTER]

to my understanding, the beasties cant get sued: thier label can be sued. the beasties were working under contract for def jam and they pretty much have to clean up whatever havoc they cause. this also include "sampling" used on thier music.

its said that her father tried suing the beasties when she signed a release. I imagined she was 18 (but back then, most 14 year old girls looked 19) so I assumed everything was legit with the filming.

[FLO MASTER]

It's Def Jam receptionist. Although I've seen a lot of photos of her and MCA.. but she couldn't be the girl in the vid....


lol....i meant pr as in "puerto rican", her last name also kind of hints to her hispanic heritage.

[FLO MASTER]

lol....i meant pr as in "puerto rican", her last name also kind of hints to her hispanic heritage.

I can also ask Sal at fever because fever was signed to def jam at the time.

[JoLovesMCA]

lol....i meant pr as in "puerto rican", her last name also kind of hints to her hispanic heritage.

Oh shit okay lol. :o But it is the receptionist... Simone!

[FLO MASTER]

Oh shit okay lol. :o But it is the receptionist... Simone!

was her name mentioned in the lawsuit against def jam? if she was a minor at the time they leave the name out but her fathers name would be listed since she would be the guardian.

[FLO MASTER]

fun story:

I remember when the video came out. my friends and i would watch it daily (rent it) and it wasnt available at the time to purchase. we tried copying it but they had the anti dubbing on the video which made the video look like scrambled porn. so, one day, i rent it out....again.... and i cracked it open and exchanged the inards with one that i copied. i went back and complained but they didnt believe me and i had to pay $70 for a new one!!! serves me right. my friend did it with an nes game and he go away with it. I thought i would have too.:mad:

[JoLovesMCA]

was her name mentioned in the lawsuit against def jam? if she was a minor at the time they leave the name out but her fathers name would be listed since she would be the guardian.

I doubt that, she and Russell are still close to this very day!

http://running-russell.oxygen.com/meet-the-cast-rrs/simone

[YoungRemy]

was her name mentioned in the lawsuit against def jam? if she was a minor at the time they leave the name out but her fathers name would be listed since she would be the guardian.

but it's not the girl in the video



This is a lame as thread.

nothing could be lame as this thread

[FLO MASTER]

nothing could be lame as this thread

true but we as beastie fans want to know everything!

[K-ren]

Good grief...Am I the only one who thought that video was kind of hot? All I saw was two consenting adults having a major PDA moment.

[LilTreyR]

Good grief...Am I the only one who thought that video was kind of hot? All I saw was two consenting adults having a major PDA moment.

Embarrassment = enjoyment :confused:

[WhoMoi?]

I didn't read the thread in question. In fact, I really don't want to. I haven't seen the video in question either. But if I can add something to conversation here:

1. I don't understand why the term "feminism" has to be brought into this conversation. Something is either wrong or it isn't. If something biased happened against some that was Asian, we don't have to consider it from the prospective of "Asianism."

So bringing that into the conversation I think kind of muddies the waters for whatever point you were trying to make. I studied feminism in school and consider myself pretty fucking liberal and very pro-women, but there's huge problems with the philosophy of that specific "ism," it being obsessed with somewhat sexist gender norms being my biggest problem with it. I think at some point during the formative years of feminism, there was a movement to kick lesbians out of it and other such things that were kind of ridiculous. Over all, I still feel the the theoretical principals were really designed to only benefit certain women and not others.

If you start using that terminology instead of it just being a discussion about the subject and women's take on it, it brings in all this other baggage and it's going to turn people off, especially guys for reasons that aren't totally bullshit.

I understand what you're saying here. Honestly, the term "feminism" does not even get brought up in the situations I'm referring to in threads. I used it in this thread's title for the purposes of brevity, and in referring to its most basic, true meaning. Describing what I actually meant in the thread title (Posters who lose their shit every time a female poster states a less-than-positive feeling or reaction in response to a reference to an LTI-era lyric/video/topic that is disrespectful to or exploitative of women: Please respond) wasn't possible due to the character limit.

That being said, the term "feminism," by definition, just refers to the belief in social, economic, and political equality for women, and acting in way that reflects that. Some of the weird/wacky "principles" that you mentioned aren't actually principles of feminism at all, but are references to some people/groups who did or promoted certain things in the name of feminism, when really it was just their own effed-up agenda that was not representative of what feminism actually means. I don't like the idea of avoiding using a term just because some idiots have led others to perceive it for something other than what it actually is.

It's similar with any cause...there are, unfortunately, some people who give the ideal itself a bad name because of their wacked interpretation of it or their extremist actions. (e.g. PETA & animal rights)

It's unfortunate, because when I hear people say, "I'm not a feminist," I know that usually, they actually ARE feminists, but just have a negative connotation of the word "feminism" because of some nuts who have given the movement a bad name over the years.
(Well, there are still people who are not feminists, I guess...like a former employer of mine who consistently gave his male employees higher wages for the same position, and required that women wear dresses or skirts at work. We could wear pants on Saturdays, though.:rolleyes: This was only 11 years ago. :mad:)



2. I could see though why this thread was made though without even reading it. A few people here are obviously huge jackasses and want to dominate the forum with their point of view and childish macho behavior.

Agreed. :(

[fonky pizza]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P38eypsTCFk

I think this video is a big ;) to Fight For Your Rights Revisited(y)

[FLO MASTER]

Good grief...Am I the only one who thought that video was kind of hot? All I saw was two consenting adults having a major PDA moment.

I loved it. I love the guidette look with the mile high hair!!

[Megalon X]

I understand what you're saying here. Honestly, the term "feminism" does not even get brought up in the situations I'm referring to in threads. I used it in this thread's title for the purposes of brevity, and in referring to its most basic, true meaning. Describing what I actually meant in the thread title (Posters who lose their shit every time a female poster states a less-than-positive feeling or reaction in response to a reference to an LTI-era lyric/video/topic that is disrespectful to or exploitative of women: Please respond) wasn't possible due to the character limit.

That being said, the term "feminism," by definition, just refers to the belief in social, economic, and political equality for women, and acting in way that reflects that. Some of the weird/wacky "principles" that you mentioned aren't actually principles of feminism at all, but are references to some people/groups who did or promoted certain things in the name of feminism, when really it was just their own effed-up agenda that was not representative of what feminism actually means. I don't like the idea of avoiding using a term just because some idiots have led others to perceive it for something other than what it actually is.

It's similar with any cause...there are, unfortunately, some people who give the ideal itself a bad name because of their wacked interpretation of it or their extremist actions. (e.g. PETA & animal rights)

It's unfortunate, because when I hear people say, "I'm not a feminist," I know that usually, they actually ARE feminists, but just have a negative connotation of the word "feminism" because of some nuts who have given the movement a bad name over the years.
(Well, there are still people who are not feminists, I guess...like a former employer of mine who consistently gave his male employees higher wages for the same position, and required that women wear dresses or skirts at work. We could wear pants on Saturdays, though.:rolleyes: This was only 11 years ago. :mad:)I don't really agree that's the definition of feminism. At the core of feminist theory is this belief in the existence of a patriarchy that is the root of all problems in society for women and other things that extend it past being a simple equal rights movement for women. I know some people argue that the patriarchy in question is only a metaphor for generic power structures now and not necessarily something male or masculine (which isn't the same as male), but I don't completely buy it and see it as back-peddling.

I don't really think tagging women as feminists that don't want that title is a good idea either. Other big problems with how certain feminists out there (not saying you or people you know) conduct their business is big doses elitism and political correctness, and that can be off-putting to many people with more down to Earth viewpoints including plenty of women. Not wanting to be associated with that doesn't mean you're an anti-feminist. Those negative qualities I also think extend past the more over the top "nuts" you are referring to, and certain women that don't want to be tagged as feminists may get that those people are outliers.

On the other hand, no one will ever successfully make this argument about terms like " the women's rights movement" because it's obvious that the terminology is really only about things like workplace equality and double standards. Theoretically, I don't see feminism as being mainly about double standards. In some ways, it actually creates them in certain ways (albeit in different ways than the other double standards that do exist in society for women and are quite stupid).

But over all, since this is mainly about semantics and you were only trying to make a point, I can understand what you were trying to say and just wanted brevity in your topic title. lol I didn't really want to get into a debate or something.

[Brass Monk]

Describing what I actually meant in the thread title (Posters who lose their shit every time a female poster states a less-than-positive feeling or reaction in response to a reference to an LTI-era lyric/video/topic that is disrespectful to or exploitative of women: Please respond) wasn't possible due to the character limit.


I think you got it backwards. The posters that are typically "losing their shit" are not the LTI fans. It's those that knee jerk on everything they perceive as offensive and start attacking LTI fans that are simply being normal fans (LTI fans with no woman defiling agenda, despite attacks to the contrary). It's crazy that this hasn't registered by now, especially after this thread has grown to 5 pages. But if you don't get that by now, you surely never well. You'll just continue to not listen and wait for your turn to talk.

[MCA4ever]

I think you got it backwards. The posters that are typically "losing their shit" are not the LTI fans. It's those that knee jerk on everything they perceive as offensive and start attacking LTI fans that are simply being normal fans (LTI fans with no woman defiling agenda, despite attacks to the contrary). It's crazy that this hasn't registered by now, especially after this thread has grown to 5 pages. But if you don't get that by now, you surely never well. You'll just continue to not listen and wait for your turn to talk.

I am pretty sure the reason this thread was started in the first place is to be able to get to that place where the two groups of beastie fans can maybe come to an understanding. I don't see anything wrong with that, for either "side". Just as you are a fan of LTI, some of us do get offended by it, and for various reasons. Not to say either of the varying opinions are correct. I don't think throwing accusations around at each other accomplishes anything more than a whole lot of discontent among everyone.

Talk about attacking- read your last sentence :confused:

[MCA4ever]

:)

[WhoMoi?]

I think you got it backwards. The posters that are typically "losing their shit" are not the LTI fans. It's those that knee jerk on everything they perceive as offensive and start attacking LTI fans that are simply being normal fans (LTI fans with no woman defiling agenda, despite attacks to the contrary).


It's not that simple. Trying to argue with your assertion here would just be a back-and-forth of, "You reacted in a crazy way," "No YOU reacted in a crazy way," "No YOU did!"
Obviously we all have our own perspectives on this issue, so that argument would go nowhere and be very unproductive.

Some of the posters on both sides of that issue "lose their shit." But not all of them do, on either side.
...which is why I decided to start this thread in the first place, because there are people who act reasonably on both sides of it, so it obviously isn't as simple as "this side of it is right, and this side of it is wrong."

I will say that I have seen threads where a girl makes a simple statement of her feeling, without "losing her shit," and she has in fact gotten reactions of people "losing their shit" in response. The most recent video tribute thread was not one of those times, though, I'll grant you that...so I probably should have worded my too-long thread title differently in my last post. Sorry for that.

No one has accused any guy here of "defiling women." :confused:

I think this whole thing is just misunderstanding each other from both sides, and I feel that by sharing our perspectives here in this thread, we're learning from each other. Or at least, I know I'm learning a lot about where others are coming from on this issue.



It's crazy that this hasn't registered by now, especially after this thread has grown to 5 pages. But if you don't get that by now, you surely never well. You'll just continue to not listen and wait for your turn to talk.


Wtf, dude.
If I wasn't interested in listening to others, I would have never started this thread. In my original post, I asked questions...obviously I'm interested in listening to others. Otherwise I'd just write a blog post and post it without allowing responses.
Just because I'm not subscribing to one opinion/view doesn't mean I'm not listening and that my own thoughts/opinions on the subject aren't valid.

[WhoMoi?]

I don't really agree that's the definition of feminism. At the core of feminist theory is this belief in the existence of a patriarchy that is the root of all problems in society for women and other things that extend it past being a simple equal rights movement for women. I know some people argue that the patriarchy in question is only a metaphor for generic power structures now and not necessarily something male or masculine (which isn't the same as male), but I don't completely buy it and see it as back-peddling.

I don't really think tagging women as feminists that don't want that title is a good idea either. Other big problems with how certain feminists out there (not saying you or people you know) conduct their business is big doses elitism and political correctness, and that can be off-putting to many people with more down to Earth viewpoints including plenty of women. Not wanting to be associated with that doesn't mean you're an anti-feminist. Those negative qualities I also think extend past the more over the top "nuts" you are referring to, and certain women that don't want to be tagged as feminists may get that those people are outliers.

On the other hand, no one will ever successfully make this argument about terms like " the women's rights movement" because it's obvious that the terminology is really only about things like workplace equality and double standards. Theoretically, I don't see feminism as being mainly about double standards. In some ways, it actually creates them in certain ways (albeit in different ways than the other double standards that do exist in society for women and are quite stupid).

But over all, since this is mainly about semantics and you were only trying to make a point, I can understand what you were trying to say and just wanted brevity in your topic title. lol I didn't really want to get into a debate or something.

Thanks for sharing your views of feminism. It's enlightening to me that some people view it in that way, and gives me a sense of where some people might be coming from when they have a negative connotation of it. But it also makes me sad that some people perceive it that way, because that's not how I view it and not what I believe.

Here are the dictionary definitions of feminism...just so you can see where I'm coming from:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/feminism
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feminism

I'd like to claim that word back for what it is actually defined as...especially since there are still so many women in the Middle East who are oppressed and treated as 2nd class citizens. And some women who live among us are treated that way within their own homes, workplaces, etc. So the ideal is still important.

It's kind of funny to me that I'm talking about this topic here on the BBMB, because I actually have a really good sense of humor about gender roles and stuff like that. When I call my husband on his cell, a picture of me vacuuming pops on his phone, and I think that's funny (mostly because I'm really bad at being a June Cleaver, domestic-goddess type :D). I love Daniel Tosh's comedy, and although I definitely think he was in the wrong in his latest debacle, I don't want his show to go off the air. I see the humor in "Girls." I'm not like a super-PC, don't-say-anything-that-could-possibly-offend-anyone-ever type of person.

I just feel like I understand where girls are coming from when they have a shitty feeling as a reaction to some of the LTI-era stuff that's posted in video or discussed on here, and I feel like people could give a more compassionate response, or not respond at all, rather than saying something insulting or critical, especially when they can't really understand where the girl is coming from.

[Sir SkratchaLot]

I think you got it backwards. The posters that are typically "losing their shit" are not the LTI fans. It's those that knee jerk on everything they perceive as offensive and start attacking LTI fans that are simply being normal fans (LTI fans with no woman defiling agenda, despite attacks to the contrary). It's crazy that this hasn't registered by now, especially after this thread has grown to 5 pages. But if you don't get that by now, you surely never well. You'll just continue to not listen and wait for your turn to talk.

That's not really what's happened though. Homeboy posted a video stating he added that footage of MCA to show how drastic his transition was, there was discussion about that (suprize!) where women stated their opinions on the subject (nobody launched a wholesale attack on MCA or even that era), they got shouted down out of that thread for being "off topic", started a new topic, got told to shut up again because this had been discussed too much (a claim which is bullshit, especially in light of all the other shit that's been discussed a lot more), and when they didn't shut up eargogglez started joking about sexually assaulting Lucie T or calling her a slut depending on how much credit you want to give him (or are you going to claim she was asking for it?) None of you "women friendly" fans said shit about that.

The only attacks on "LTI fans" were when they tried to shut down the conversation or tried to twist the context of how everything went down. Nobody was attacking LTI fans.

[Brass Monk]

That's not really what's happened though. Homeboy posted a video stating he added that footage of MCA to show how drastic his transition was, there was discussion about that (suprize!) where women stated their opinions on the subject (nobody launched a wholesale attack on MCA or even that era), they got shouted down out of that thread for being "off topic", started a new topic, got told to shut up again because this had been discussed too much (a claim which is bullshit, especially in light of all the other shit that's been discussed a lot more), and when they didn't shut up eargogglez started joking about sexually assaulting Lucie T or calling her a slut depending on how much credit you want to give him (or are you going to claim she was asking for it?) None of you "women friendly" fans said shit about that.

The only attacks on "LTI fans" were when they tried to shut down the conversation or tried to twist the context of how everything went down. Nobody was attacking LTI fans.
As far as LTI fans getting snapped on, I'm speaking from my personal experience on this board. There's definitely been a pattern of that happening. I wasn't referencing the specific thing you're talking about.

[Brass Monk]

Some of the posters on both sides of that issue "lose their shit." But not all of them do, on either side.
...which is why I decided to start this thread in the first place, because there are people who act reasonably on both sides of it, so it obviously isn't as simple as "this side of it is right, and this side of it is wrong."

No one has accused any guy here of "defiling women." :confused:

I think this whole thing is just misunderstanding each other from both sides, and I feel that by sharing our perspectives here in this thread, we're learning from each other. Or at least, I know I'm learning a lot about where others are coming from on this issue.



I'm not sure you equate 1 side with the other here. I'm just speaking from my experiences on this board. An example that comes to mind is a recent thread that was devoted to an interview that the Beastie boys did back in the LTI era. I was really interested in it because I never saw it, but some posters started rather bitterly chiming in about it because they were morally against the idea of a magazine like Penthouse. I just wanted to read the article (eventually the interview was indeed posted), but the thread totally spiraled off topic, just because Penthouse magazine was involved. According to many of the responses, basically all interested in this article were sexist jerks (implied strongly at the least). Some of these comments were antagonistic to the point where some of my side were getting baited into responding angrily to this sort of trolling and then a comment would get ripped out of context or blown out of proportion making it even more ridiculous. And this certainly is not an isolated incident.
You may be right that nobody used the term "Defiling women" but you know what I mean.

[kav]

This is a lame as thread.

Agreed.(y)

[WhoMoi?]

I'm not sure you equate 1 side with the other here. I'm just speaking from my experiences on this board. An example that comes to mind is a recent thread that was devoted to an interview that the Beastie boys did back in the LTI era. I was really interested in it because I never saw it, but some posters started rather bitterly chiming in about it because they were morally against the idea of a magazine like Penthouse. I just wanted to read the article (eventually the interview was indeed posted), but the thread totally spiraled off topic, just because Penthouse magazine was involved. According to many of the responses, basically all interested in this article were sexist jerks (implied strongly at the least). Some of these comments were antagonistic to the point where some of my side were getting baited into responding angrily to this sort of trolling and then a comment would get ripped out of context or blown out of proportion making it even more ridiculous. And this certainly is not an isolated incident.
You may be right that nobody used the term "Defiling women" but you know what I mean.

I remembered the Penthouse thread and your post prompted me to go back to look at it. I didn't interpret that girls posting in that thread were "morally against" Penthouse (this is a Beastie Boys forum, not an uber conservative anti-porn forum, after all!). The initial comment from a girl was that she wished a different quote had been used from the article in the original post. Then some of the reactions she got prompted some others (including me) to post to try to give some perspective of where she was coming from, etc.

I don't think it's as simple as LTI fans and non-fans of LTI. I consider myself an LTI fan, and I'm interested in discussing most aspects of it and Beastie-related stuff from that era.

Still, when a quote or video from that era is posted that contains elements that are exploitative of/disrespectful to women, I cringe, as I've said before. I don't initiate comments about it, because as I've said, Beastie Boys have gone so far above and beyond to redeem themselves when it comes to that stuff since that time, in my view. But when other girls do initiate comments about it, and then they're getting flack for it, I say something...because I just think people could make more of an effort to pause and consider where the girl is coming from, rather than just getting defensive and launching a verbal attack. The latter - especially coming from a guy - adds further guy vs. girl sentiment, which just adds insult to injury, so to speak.

I don't know...
Now that we're so deep into this thread and hearing everyone's perspectives, it seems like maybe I'm expecting too much. I recognize how amazing and unique Mike, Adam, and Adam were to have taken the stance that they did for the past 20+ years on this issue, and that that's not the norm at all. I'd figured most of their fans would have views similar to theirs when it comes to this stuff, but I guess not all of them do. Now I know that...so thanks again to everyone for weighing in.

[LilTreyR]

I'm not sure you equate 1 side with the other here. I'm just speaking from my experiences on this board. An example that comes to mind is a recent thread that was devoted to an interview that the Beastie boys did back in the LTI era. I was really interested in it because I never saw it, but some posters started rather bitterly chiming in about it because they were morally against the idea of a magazine like Penthouse. I just wanted to read the article (eventually the interview was indeed posted), but the thread totally spiraled off topic, just because Penthouse magazine was involved. According to many of the responses, basically all interested in this article were sexist jerks (implied strongly at the least). Some of these comments were antagonistic to the point where some of my side were getting baited into responding angrily to this sort of trolling and then a comment would get ripped out of context or blown out of proportion making it even more ridiculous. And this certainly is not an isolated incident.
You may be right that nobody used the term "Defiling women" but you know what I mean.

Shut Up!

[MCA4ever]

You may be right that nobody used the term "Defiling women" but you know what I mean.

Who is blowing things out of proportion? Who is twisting things that were/were not said? If all you get out of these conversations is what you put into them then aren't you just waiting for your turn to speak without hearing what anyone else says? People who have a different opinion from yours are trolls and trouble makers?

[Brass Monk]

Who is blowing things out of proportion? Who is twisting things that were/were not said? If all you get out of these conversations is what you put into them then aren't you just waiting for your turn to speak without hearing what anyone else says? People who have a different opinion from yours are trolls and trouble makers?
You want me to go back at quote the thread and describe it comment by comment to you?!?!? I remember that thread pretty clearly.

And if someone starts hijacking a thread into a different divisive topic than yes, that is trolling or trouble making or whatever you wanna call it. And I cited an example of this.

Really, I'm listening to what you're saying. But there is just no excuse for doing what I just described. Trolling is trolling. The ref's gotta blow his whistle on this one.

[Brass Monk]

or HER whistle.

Sorry, lol

[Brass Monk]

I remembered the Penthouse thread and your post prompted me to go back to look at it. I didn't interpret that girls posting in that thread were "morally against" Penthouse (this is a Beastie Boys forum, not an uber conservative anti-porn forum, after all!). The initial comment from a girl was that she wished a different quote had been used from the article in the original post. Then some of the reactions she got prompted some others (including me) to post to try to give some perspective of where she was coming from, etc.

I don't think it's as simple as LTI fans and non-fans of LTI. I consider myself an LTI fan, and I'm interested in discussing most aspects of it and Beastie-related stuff from that era.

Still, when a quote or video from that era is posted that contains elements that are exploitative of/disrespectful to women, I cringe, as I've said before. I don't initiate comments about it, because as I've said, Beastie Boys have gone so far above and beyond to redeem themselves when it comes to that stuff since that time, in my view. But when other girls do initiate comments about it, and then they're getting flack for it, I say something...because I just think people could make more of an effort to pause and consider where the girl is coming from, rather than just getting defensive and launching a verbal attack. The latter - especially coming from a guy - adds further guy vs. girl sentiment, which just adds insult to injury, so to speak.

I don't know...
Now that we're so deep into this thread and hearing everyone's perspectives, it seems like maybe I'm expecting too much. I recognize how amazing and unique Mike, Adam, and Adam were to have taken the stance that they did for the past 20+ years on this issue, and that that's not the norm at all. I'd figured most of their fans would have views similar to theirs when it comes to this stuff, but I guess not all of them do. Now I know that...so thanks again to everyone for weighing in.

I actually agree with 99% of what you say on the subject (which is really saying something about presumptions right there), but the commentary is just misplaced. EVERYONE (I wish I could post the Gary Oldman gif here) knows the Beastie Boys' evolved and enlightened view of the subject. We know, really we do.

[WhoMoi?]

I actually agree with 99% of what you say on the subject (which is really saying something about presumptions right there), but the commentary is just misplaced. EVERYONE (I wish I could post the Gary Oldman gif here) knows the Beastie Boys' evolved and enlightened view of the subject. We know, really we do.

I'm not trying to retell what everyone already knows about how the Beasties evolved in their views and actions on this subject. Not sure where you're getting that idea. :confused:
The topic here was whether those evolved/enlightened views are being reflected here on the board in some of the comments to girls.
And I appreciate everyone who has thrown in their two cents. (y)

Misplaced? I see where you're coming from - some people are going to want to post in threads where things like the Penthouse article are being discussed (I was interested in reading it too), and that's cool. But given the bolded quote that the OP used to start off that particular thread, I personally don't feel like it was unreasonable for the other poster to comment on the quote chosen and suggest that another one could have been used.

I also don't think it's unreasonable for a girl to comment when she has just watched a posted tribute video, and was surprised by the inclusion of a video clip that showed the Beasties' earlier attitude toward women in a pretty in-your-face way.

I'm not making any kind of judgment on any of the OPs in this situation, and whether they should or shouldn't have included what they did in their posts.
I'm just saying that choosing to include those types of "controversial" (for lack of a better word) things in a blatant way in one's post opens that aspect up for discussion, in my opinion.

[Brass Monk]

I'm not trying to retell what everyone already knows about how the Beasties evolved in their views and actions on this subject. Not sure where you're getting that idea. :confused:
The topic here was whether those evolved/enlightened views are being reflected here on the board in some of the comments to girls.
And I appreciate everyone who has thrown in their two cents. (y)

Misplaced? I see where you're coming from - some people are going to want to post in threads where things like the Penthouse article are being discussed (I was interested in reading it too), and that's cool. But given the bolded quote that the OP used to start off that particular thread, I personally don't feel like it was unreasonable for the other poster to comment on the quote chosen and suggest that another one could have been used.

I also don't think it's unreasonable for a girl to comment when she has just watched a posted tribute video, and was surprised by the inclusion of a video clip that showed the Beasties' earlier attitude toward women in a pretty in-your-face way.

I'm not making any kind of judgment on any of the OPs in this situation, and whether they should or shouldn't have included what they did in their posts.
I'm just saying that choosing to include those types of "controversial" (for lack of a better word) things in a blatant way in one's post opens that aspect up for discussion, in my opinion.

I don't know what an OP is.
I do know that the bolded quote in the initial post on the Penthouse thread was a memorable line from the article. That doesn't mean its a great thing to say, it means its a memorable line and nothing more. It does in fact give a good idea of the tone of the article. When you click on a thread about Penthouse, that type of language should not be met with such a shock (it might be wiser not to click on it, but thats' your choice of course). And BTW, I checked the thread and nobody was cheering on that quote or doing any kind message board high fives over it. Based on the reaction to that, you would think there were some knuckleheads doing that, but nope. All the hostility was coming from one direction.
As far as the discussion regarding the Beastie Compilation, I happened to miss that.
But anyway, I guess everybody has to be themselves and I gotta just get used to overlooking some posts sometimes. No big deal really, I suppose.:)

[MCA4ever]

I don't know what an OP is.
I do know that the bolded quote in the initial post on the Penthouse thread was a memorable line from the article. That doesn't mean its a great thing to say, it means its a memorable line and nothing more. It does in fact give a good idea of the tone of the article. When you click on a thread about Penthouse, that type of language should not be met with such a shock (it might be wiser not to click on it, but thats' your choice of course). And BTW, I checked the thread and nobody was cheering on that quote or doing any kind message board high fives over it. Based on the reaction to that, you would think there were some knuckleheads doing that, but nope. All the hostility was coming from one direction.
As far as the discussion regarding the Beastie Compilation, I happened to miss that.
But anyway, I guess everybody has to be themselves and I gotta just get used to overlooking some posts sometimes. No big deal really, I suppose.:)

While I will admit that I may have had a "knee jerk" reaction in stating my opinion but you are just as guilty as being a "troll" in that penthouse thread as I was. Many of the conclusions you have restated in this very thread about that "discussion" are still incorrect. Your assumptions are wrong. While I have apologized for not refraining from commenting on it, I still stand by my reasons.

I will give you one last thing, as much as it pains me, maybe we all need to practice "letting certain things go."

[WhoMoi?]

maybe we all need to practice "letting certain things go."

C'est vrai!

I'm working on it...
:)

[WhoMoi?]

I don't know what an OP is.

Original poster.


But anyway, I guess everybody has to be themselves and I gotta just get used to overlooking some posts sometimes. No big deal really, I suppose.:)
Fair enough.
Good talk. (y):)

[MCA4ever]

C'est vrai!

I'm working on it...
:)

Oh no whomoi?. I was not referring to you. I was referring to the "LTI antics fans vs. the offended." I think setting up this thread was a great idea. There is some great conversation here. Given the title, anyone who was tired of hearing this kind if stuff, really didn't have to enter. For the most part everyone gave their honest opinion of how they feel and gave some of us other ways of seeing things. There are 6 pages here! :)

[Brass Monk]

While I will admit that I may have had a "knee jerk" reaction in stating my opinion but you are just as guilty as being a "troll" in that penthouse thread as I was. Many of the conclusions you have restated in this very thread about that "discussion" are still incorrect. Your assumptions are wrong. While I have apologized for not refraining from commenting on it, I still stand by my reasons.



To accuse me of being dishonest about the penthouse thread is really lame. I already honestly explained the reasons for your/others’ trolling on that thread in detail. I said nothing that was trolling. I guess it's easier to just deny and call people liars when you have facts put in front of you that don't put you in the best of lights. You kinda remind of Lakers fans that are faced with the cold hard stats that Kobe is not a great clutch player. Just deny and accuse the other person of being dishonest.

[Brass Monk]

I will give you one last thing, as much as it pains me, maybe we all need to practice "letting certain things go."

I was talking about the penthouse thread because it ties into the topic of this thread.

[Megalon X]

Thanks for sharing your views of feminism. It's enlightening to me that some people view it in that way, and gives me a sense of where some people might be coming from when they have a negative connotation of it. But it also makes me sad that some people perceive it that way, because that's not how I view it and not what I believe.

Here are the dictionary definitions of feminism...just so you can see where I'm coming from:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/feminism
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feminism

I'd like to claim that word back for what it is actually defined as...especially since there are still so many women in the Middle East who are oppressed and treated as 2nd class citizens. And some women who live among us are treated that way within their own homes, workplaces, etc. So the ideal is still important.

It's kind of funny to me that I'm talking about this topic here on the BBMB, because I actually have a really good sense of humor about gender roles and stuff like that. When I call my husband on his cell, a picture of me vacuuming pops on his phone, and I think that's funny (mostly because I'm really bad at being a June Cleaver, domestic-goddess type :D). I love Daniel Tosh's comedy, and although I definitely think he was in the wrong in his latest debacle, I don't want his show to go off the air. I see the humor in "Girls." I'm not like a super-PC, don't-say-anything-that-could-possibly-offend-anyone-ever type of person.

I just feel like I understand where girls are coming from when they have a shitty feeling as a reaction to some of the LTI-era stuff that's posted in video or discussed on here, and I feel like people could give a more compassionate response, or not respond at all, rather than saying something insulting or critical, especially when they can't really understand where the girl is coming from.

Feminism isn't just a word. It's an ideology and field of criticism. A dictionary definition just isn't enough. Since it's an ideology and field of criticism, it has all this theoretical work propping it up, including this concept of a "patriarchy" as a foundation that seems pretty flawed to me as far as actual concepts of equality are concerned. I also don't think the dictionary should be that trusted regardless. Also studied linguistics, and prescriptive definitions like that never show the whole story.

It would be like being for free speech and the personal liberty to do what you want with your body and claiming to be a libertarian for that reason imo. I think people would be justified in assuming you also believe in the other things that libertarian ideology is for such as being against the power of the federal government, being against business discrimination laws, etc. due to what the theory behind libertarianism suggests.

I don't think the idea of women's rights is intrinsically tied to the ideology of feminism, so unless you want to frame the argument through that ideology, which will turn some people off, I don't think it's very useful to put it that way. Personally, I find the idea of women's rights tied to the ideas of basic fairness and the concept that all people are created equal. You don't have to shove all these weird concepts about gender into it which is what feminism does. Hanging around plenty of women that supplant some of these notions constantly has taught me that subjecting them to that kind of gender criticism is utterly ridiculous and itself a totally made up construction in the first place.

That's good you have a sense of humor about that kind of stuff, but a lot of people claiming the feminist mantra would be extremely dogmatic about it, which is part of the problem. You can go on Youtube and find people claiming the feminist mantra ranting about those kinds of things, with the comments setting adjusted so only the choir they preach to has the ability to respond.

Frankly, I like how the LGBT community has addressed things in recent history. They simply framed it as a civil rights movement and don't bother harping on things like political correctness. The progress they have made in the mainstream in the past few years has been meteoric, and I think that's one of the reasons. People know they just want equal rights and that it isn't about walking around and getting offended at everything.

Still, when a quote or video from that era is posted that contains elements that are exploitative of/disrespectful to women, I cringe, as I've said before.I watched that part of the video recently. It looked badly staged and absolutely silly. The only thing that stands out about it is the scene that sparked the discussion. I can't tell whether that was also staged or fake. I can't really formulate an opinion on it for that reason. If I knew how real it was and if she knew it was coming, I could probably form an opinion, but it's kind of hard at this point.

If you remove that from the video, I think finding the video "exploitative of/disrespectful" would be just as silly as the video is silly. I could see how stuff like this is a parody of 1980's rock culture and all that. It was basically a bunch of 20 somethings acting like children.

I also don't see the point of associating yourself with every female portrayal presented and using that as a point to feel disrespected. It makes little to no sense. Men don't do this and a good deal of women don't either. I mean there's so many negative portrayals of men in everything showing them as blubblering idiots, but men don't get offended. It's because the men watching don't associate those portrayals as their selves. They get that men can be anything, including something positive, negative, sexual, non-sexual, or whatever else. Sometimes I get the sense that feminists don't view it this way. They think that every single portrayal of a woman ever represents every single woman and thus their selves. Frankly, I think people are smart enough to get that Hilary Clinton and Pamela Anderson are different people and aren't meant to be a reflection of you, your grandmother, etc.

This is definitely where the political correctness comes in because then people are intimidated to do anything but portray every female character, female image, etc. as a perfect, flawless, empowered stereotype. The actual problems come in when women don't get to choose how they are treated out in the real world I think. Most people tend to get that there isn't a strong link between fantasy portrayals and the real world, and suggesting people can't tell the difference is looking down on people's intelligence.

But yeah, since this was a discussion sparked about someone randomly shoving their hand down someone's pants, I can see why it may not have been that kind of debate. Also the fact that two said people here and maybe a few others tend to jam their opinions down people's throats to "son" them. I'm not disagreeing that more respect for alternate viewpoints is good.

I also don't see the Beastie Boys as a "feminist" band. At some point they tried to change how they were perceived and what they reflected in their art, but that could come from plenty of other sources such as Yauch's Buddhism as opposed to feminist ideology.

[WhoMoi?]

Oh no whomoi?. I was not referring to you. I was referring to the "LTI antics fans vs. the offended."
I know...but I think it's good advice for all of us, regardless. :) Sometimes I think we get so caught up in debating that it ends up defeating the original point/purpose of what anyone was trying to say.


I think setting up this thread was a great idea. There is some great conversation here. Given the title, anyone who was tired of hearing this kind if stuff, really didn't have to enter. For the most part everyone gave their honest opinion of how they feel and gave some of us other ways of seeing things. There are 6 pages here! :)
Thanks. I know some (many?) others disagree, but I know I learned a lot about what is actually behind some people's posts on the subject, and it gives me a better sense of how to interpret any posts that might come up on this topic in the future. Maybe something good will come of it for the next time this issue pops up in a thread. And maybe not. :p


You kinda remind of Lakers fans that are faced with the cold hard stats that Kobe is not a great clutch player. Just deny and accuse the other person of being dishonest.
Had to LOL at this one. It could be tough for people to take your point seriously when you try to describe it using an example that's another matter of opinion; even with stats, sports fans clearly have biases. (Disclaimer: I couldn't care less about NBA or professional sports in general - except that I casually prefer the Celtics because of where I live :) - and I have no opinion of Kobe as a basketball player.)

[Brass Monk]

Had to LOL at this one. It could be tough for people to take your point seriously when you try to describe it using an example that's another matter of opinion; even with stats, sports fans clearly have biases. (Disclaimer: I couldn't care less about NBA or professional sports in general - except that I casually prefer the Celtics because of where I live :) - and I have no opinion of Kobe as a basketball player.)

Actually you easily quantify a player's shooting percentage in the closing minutes of the game and then compare to other players. Its actually not a matter of opinion. You laugh at it, but read the article, if you care to, and you'll understand.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

[MCA4ever]

To accuse me of being dishonest about the penthouse thread is really lame. I already honestly explained the reasons for your/others’ trolling on that thread in detail. I said nothing that was trolling. I guess it's easier to just deny and call people liars when you have facts put in front of you that don't put you in the best of lights. You kinda remind of Lakers fans that are faced with the cold hard stats that Kobe is not a great clutch player. Just deny and accuse the other person of being dishonest.



I'm really not sure why I am even trying to explain anything to you. Your opinion is the only one that is ever correct and frankly I'm quite tired of trying to defend myself to you.

Quote:
Still, when a quote or video from that era is posted that contains elements that are exploitative of/disrespectful to women, I cringe, as I've said before.

The above quote was the only reason for my "knee jerk" comment in that thread. I am not a prude. I am not a super-feminist. I have no problems with magazines like penthouse ... Its when I see something that appears or is flat out disrespectful of any other human being, that I open my mouth. That quote from that article was formatted that way to stir some shit. Maybe I'm blind too, but I've read that article and never did see that quote. You also conveniently leave out that I too said i was interested in reading that article.

By you assuming that I was offended just by the "word" Penthouse, is WRONG! It has now become just a lie that you choose to continue. Anyone here, that's not all ready sick to death of this, can go back in that thread and re-read for themselves. I won't be responding to you on this again, not even to defend myself so go find someone else to throw insinuations at. Judging from the dialogue here between you and others, that's not too hard for you to do.

[WhoMoi?]

Feminism isn't just a word. It's an ideology and field of criticism. A dictionary definition just isn't enough. [...] I also don't think the dictionary should be that trusted regardless. Also studied linguistics, and prescriptive definitions like that never show the whole story. It would be like being for free speech and the personal liberty to do what you want with your body and claiming to be a libertarian for that reason imo. I think people would be justified in assuming you also believe in the other things that libertarian ideology is for such as being against the power of the federal government, being against business discrimination laws, etc. due to what the theory behind libertarianism suggests.
I hear what you're saying here. I'm a language person myself, by trade, so I get it. Still, I know that there are many people - including myself - who define feminism as just that broad, but still meaningful definition.


Since it's an ideology and field of criticism, it has all this theoretical work propping it up, including this concept of a "patriarchy" as a foundation that seems pretty flawed to me as far as actual concepts of equality are concerned.
I think I'd need more specifics about what you actually view as flawed in this view to respond to this. It's pretty much not debatable that most people lived in places that were politically and economically controlled by men for a long time, up until the last half century or so, wouldn't you agree?


I don't think the idea of women's rights is intrinsically tied to the ideology of feminism, so unless you want to frame the argument through that ideology, which will turn some people off, I don't think it's very useful to put it that way. Personally, I find the idea of women's rights tied to the ideas of basic fairness and the concept that all people are created equal. You don't have to shove all these weird concepts about gender into it which is what feminism does. Hanging around plenty of women that supplant some of these notions constantly has taught me that subjecting them to that kind of gender criticism is utterly ridiculous and itself a totally made up construction in the first place.
I do disagree with this. The idea of women's rights is THE one current theme throughout all the various "offshoots" of feminism. Any other widely disputable beliefs that different specific groups within feminism have espoused (one example: the idea some had to exclude lesbians, as you mentioned before, back in the 1960s by NOW/Betty Friedan) have not become part of the broad, basic definition of feminism. (Friedan has since changed her views on that and apologized).

Feminism is one component of the broader term of civil rights. Civil rights includes so many groups and causes within it, with different issues pertaining to each, and overlap between them, obviously. So there have to be terms for the subcategories. The term "women's rights" covers the political and economic parts of feminism (i.e. women having the same legal rights as men), for the most part, but doesn't really get at the social piece of it, which is why I used the broader term "feminism" in this case.
Here's an article that shows that I'm not alone in defining feminism in this way. There are some comments below it where people have complained about the "label;" unfortunately, we still need a word for it, IMO.
http://tomatonation.com/culture-and-criticism/yes-you-are/


That's good you have a sense of humor about that kind of stuff, but a lot of people claiming the feminist mantra would be extremely dogmatic about it, which is part of the problem. You can go on Youtube and find people claiming the feminist mantra ranting about those kinds of things, with the comments setting adjusted so only the choir they preach to has the ability to respond.
That's obnoxious and annoying! It's so shitty that some take that approach. I'm not very dogmatic about anything. :)

Frankly, I like how the LGBT community has addressed things in recent history. They simply framed it as a civil rights movement and don't bother harping on things like political correctness. The progress they have made in the mainstream in the past few years has been meteoric, and I think that's one of the reasons. People know they just want equal rights and that it isn't about walking around and getting offended at everything.
This is a good point. The only issue I see here in comparing it to feminism as a term, is that the LGBT community in the U.S. is still fighting for some political rights, in addition to the social piece of it, whereas American women already have the same political rights as men; we're through that hoop already. So the term "civil rights," and the subcategorical terms "LGBT rights" and "women's rights" really refer more to - well - rights, in a legal sense. I tend to use the word "feminism" when I'm talking about the social aspect of it. There really isn't any other term for the social aspect of the issues for any of the causes within civil rights, is there? "Anti-sexism," "anti-racism," "anti-homophobia" - those all sound awkward.

In any case, regarding the "f" word in question - it's more important to me that you understand what I was referring to in using that word, rather than whether we agree on exactly what it means.
Although I feel frustrated that people associate the word with some negative stuff and some people don't view it for what I believe it is, I appreciate you bringing up the point that that's the case, because it will make me think more about how I communicate on this topic going forward.

I watched that part of the video recently. It looked badly staged and absolutely silly. The only thing that stands out about it is the scene that sparked the discussion. I can't tell whether that was also staged or fake. I can't really formulate an opinion on it for that reason. If I knew how real it was and if she knew it was coming, I could probably form an opinion, but it's kind of hard at this point.
I agree. Look staged to me, but who really knows.

If you remove that from the video, I think finding the video "exploitative of/disrespectful" would be just as silly as the video is silly. I could see how stuff like this is a parody of 1980's rock culture and all that. It was basically a bunch of 20 somethings acting like children.
I agree that it's a parody, and yadda yadda. But it does kind of portray a vibe that being douchebags to girls is cool; hence why I used the terms "exploiting" and "disrespectful" - though those words may be a little strong. I think that "groupies" tend to go backstage in the hopes of being involved in that kind of activity and that's fine...they may have been willing to be interacted with in that manner (seemed like it to me).

I know that they certainly aren't the only young guys who have acted in this way. It's just very juxtaposed to who the Beastie Boys became. Maybe it causes me (and possibly others) to view that old stuff more harshly than I otherwise would...like we're holding them to a higher standard. Interesting to think about that...

I also don't see the point of associating yourself with every female portrayal presented and using that as a point to feel disrespected. It makes little to no sense. Men don't do this and a good deal of women don't either.
I can only speak for myself, but I didn't feel personally disrespected - as an individual person - when I watched that. But it does portray the boys kind of regarding and using women for specific purposes, don't you think? Not to say many other guys don't do that - but seeing it on video can be a little obnoxious, and knowing that millions of people have seen it (and seeing the comments below the original video of it on YouTube, indicating that many think "those were the days") and how some fans back in that day took that stuff seriously - that's what makes me have an "icky" feeling about it.

I mean there's so many negative portrayals of men in everything showing them as blubblering idiots, but men don't get offended. It's because the men watching don't associate those portrayals as their selves. They get that men can be anything, including something positive, negative, sexual, non-sexual, or whatever else.
This is a really interesting point! But actually, I do remember reading an article awhile back - it was like an editorial type of piece, I think - where a guy was complaining about that, how he didn't appreciate men being portrayed as just "dumb husbands" on sitcoms these days.

Sometimes I get the sense that feminists don't view it this way. They think that every single portrayal of a woman ever represents every single woman and thus their selves.
I don't think that's it. A lot of us have had experiences of being objectified or treated in a certain negative way simply BECAUSE we are women. So seeing stuff that shows women (any woman) being treated in a manner that suggests they were basically nothing more than "playthings" to guys can just hit a nerve, for that reason. That's where I'm coming from on it, anyway.
Just seeing a women (like Pam Anderson, whom you mentioned) who is choosing to play up her body in order to profit, or whatever, doesn't bother me in and of itself. Probably because she tends to be portrayed as being in control, at least.

It did bother me once when I read something about Jessica Simpson trying to give girls advice on how to attract guys, and she mentioned that she would act "dumb" on purpose, because she thought guys liked that. That did bug me, because she was actually suggesting this to a broad audience of women, which would include her fans, a lot of whom are preteen and teenage girls.
So I guess maybe there are a lot of factors that play into what irks me on this issue. It's complicated!


This is definitely where the political correctness comes in because then people are intimidated to do anything but portray every female character, female image, etc. as a perfect, flawless, empowered stereotype. The actual problems come in when women don't get to choose how they are treated out in the real world I think. Most people tend to get that there isn't a strong link between fantasy portrayals and the real world, and suggesting people can't tell the difference is looking down on people's intelligence.
Well, I don't think that women are being only portrayed as flawless, perfect, empowered, etc. Pretty much all comedy TV/movies are based in that not being the case. Example: I love watching 30 Rock because I can identify with Liz Lemon's character really well...and she certainly isn't portrayed as being flawless. :)
I agree that women need to choose how they're treated in the real world. I think a lot of us do, if we have the ability to make that choice.
But many women don't have a choice when it comes to that, sadly - especially in certain parts of the world, but even in my part of the world, there are women who are oppressed within their own households or workplaces, for whatever reason. :( That's why it's important to still talk about this stuff.

As for the "fantasy portrayal" - we're not sure if that video was 100% fantasy portrayal. We know Beastie Boys liked to be joking around a lot and telling total lies in interviews for their own amusement...but as was mentioned before, a lot of people took the stuff they said and did at face value and didn't get the "joke." So that ended up becoming a problem that they learned from and seemed to be a big part of why (other than just growing up/maturing) they turned things around.

But yeah, since this was a discussion sparked about someone randomly shoving their hand down someone's pants, I can see why it may not have been that kind of debate. Also the fact that two said people here and maybe a few others tend to jam their opinions down people's throats to "son" them. I'm not disagreeing that more respect for alternate viewpoints is good.
(y)

I also don't see the Beastie Boys as a "feminist" band. At some point they tried to change how they were perceived and what they reflected in their art, but that could come from plenty of other sources such as Yauch's Buddhism as opposed to feminist ideology.
I wouldn't call them a "feminist band." :confused:
I'm sure there were many factors in how they changed, and I wouldn't profess to know all of them - but Adrock does participate in some pro-women (trying to avoid saying "feminism" here, but it still sounds weird) activities, and obviously has a pretty major feminist influence in his life. But those influences aside, their message about/attitude toward women in their music - when they did happen to mention them - did a complete 180, and that's all I was saying.

Whew - Megalon X, you gave me a lot to think about and respond to! This may be my longest post ever. :-O

[Brass Monk]

I'm really not sure why I am even trying to explain anything to you. Your opinion is the only one that is ever correct and frankly I'm quite tired of trying to defend myself to you.


The above quote was the only reason for my "knee jerk" comment in that thread. I am not a prude. I am not a super-feminist. I have no problems with magazines like penthouse ... Its when I see something that appears or is flat out disrespectful of any other human being, that I open my mouth. That quote from that article was formatted that way to stir some shit. Maybe I'm blind too, but I've read that article and never did see that quote. You also conveniently leave out that I too said i was interested in reading that article.

By you assuming that I was offended just by the "word" Penthouse, is WRONG! It has now become just a lie that you choose to continue. Anyone here, that's not all ready sick to death of this, can go back in that thread and re-read for themselves. I won't be responding to you on this again, not even to defend myself so go find someone else to throw insinuations at. Judging from the dialogue here between you and others, that's not too hard for you to do.


Really nobody is throwing insinuations at you, just saying what transpired on that thread. Sure, go back and reread it. Anyone who does will find a civil discussion was being had until you commented:
“I guess I should have known better than to open this thread. That sentence did exactly what, I think, it was intended to do - file:///C:%5CUsers%5Cbrattray%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cm sohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_image001.gifI did find it personally offensive. That quote is how many years old? I just feel like putting it out there, the way the poster did was unecessary. Didn't they already apologize for shit like that? I just feel bringing up that specific situation with such enthusiasm sets us back a bit, don't you? I think we were all young and stupid once or twice. I'm just glad my stupidity is not documented out there for anyone to throw it up in my face or bring to my attention.

I'm just sayin' ...”
That was the 9th comment of the thread. You had 2 previous ones that respectfully expressed disappointment with the choice of quote. Than on this quote you lost it, and it collectively spiraled from there.
I did say after that comment“…….They indulged in the groupie scene like 90% of the big time music groups out there, past and present. They shouldn't have to apologize for it (thought they did anyway) nor should any of the million other groups that did it.” I didn’t quantify what I meant by an apology and it comes across badly as a result, my bad there. I meant they don’t have to go on an apology media tour and what they did was not a war crime it was being painted as. But your response to that was to lose it further and go off on a baseless rant, “throwing insinuations” as you say, which ain’t right.
I just used the penthouse thread as an example because I think it’s a good one in regards to this thread’s topic.
I never assumed or said you were offended by the word “penthouse.” And I am not choosing to continue “some lie.” (and it’s pretty low to be accusing me of such). I was just trying to participate in this thread to communicate about what’s been going on, but what a futile endeavor that was. Whomoi seems more genuine in her willingness to accept constructive criticism.

[WhoMoi?]

I never assumed or said you were offended by the word “penthouse.” And I am not choosing to continue “some lie.” (and it’s pretty low to be accusing me of such).


I'm quoting a previous quote of yours below (from this thread) so you can see what MCA4ever is referring to:


An example that comes to mind is a recent thread that was devoted to an interview that the Beastie boys did back in the LTI era. I was really interested in it because I never saw it, but some posters started rather bitterly chiming in about it because they were morally against the idea of a magazine like Penthouse. I just wanted to read the article (eventually the interview was indeed posted), but the thread totally spiraled off topic, just because Penthouse magazine was involved. According to many of the responses, basically all interested in this article were sexist jerks (implied strongly at the least).

I think MCA4ever is trying to say that you asserted that she was offended by the magazine itself, when really she was just questioning whether that specific quote needed to be used in the original post on that thread and put in bold type. I don't think anyone was alleging that people interested in the article were "sexist jerks" (especially since many of us girls were interested in reading it too).

She has also said that she apologized for any impression she gave that was not "civil," but stands by her opinion about the quote that was chosen and bolded.
People came back at her in that thread criticizing her for suggesting that we should all forget the Beastie Boys' past...but that wasn't what she was suggesting.
THEN it spiraled a bit, in my opinion.

Just thought I'd clear that up.

And I dunno -
I just feel like that was one of those moments where the guy could have said, "Sorry - it was the only quote I remember from the article."
And that would probably have been the end of it.
That's all I'm saying, that a little understanding from the other side to just acknowledge the girl's feeling - just in that simple way - could have stopped the debate where it stood, before the actual complaint got entangled in all these other things that it didn't really start out as.

[JohnnyChavello]

From Louis CK's appearance on The Daily Show after the Daniel Tosh controversy:

"This is also about men and women…Couples are fighting about Daniel Tosh and rape jokes... But they’re both making a classic gender mistake. Because the women are saying ‘This is how I feel about this.’ But they’re also saying ‘My feelings should be everyone’s primary concern.’ But the men are making this mistake, they’re saying ‘Your feelings don’t matter. Your feelings are wrong, and your feelings are stupid.’…To the men I say, ‘Listen. Listen to what the women are saying for a minute.’ And to the women, I say ‘Now that we heard you, you know, shut the fuck up for a minute.’"

[WhoMoi?]

From Louis CK's appearance on The Daily Show after the Daniel Tosh controversy:

"This is also about men and women…Couples are fighting about Daniel Tosh and rape jokes... But they’re both making a classic gender mistake. Because the women are saying ‘This is how I feel about this.’ But they’re also saying ‘My feelings should be everyone’s primary concern.’ But the men are making this mistake, they’re saying ‘Your feelings don’t matter. Your feelings are wrong, and your feelings are stupid.’…To the men I say, ‘Listen. Listen to what the women are saying for a minute.’ And to the women, I say ‘Now that we heard you, you know, shut the fuck up for a minute.’"

(y)
Wow. Yup, this pretty much sums it up for all of us.
Louie is very perceptive.

[Brass Monk]

I'm quoting a previous quote of yours below (from this thread) so you can see what MCA4ever is referring to:




I think MCA4ever is trying to say that you asserted that she was offended by the magazine itself, when really she was just questioning whether that specific quote needed to be used in the original post on that thread and put in bold type. I don't think anyone was alleging that people interested in the article were "sexist jerks" (especially since many of us girls were interested in reading it too).

She has also said that she apologized for any impression she gave that was not "civil," but stands by her opinion about the quote that was chosen and bolded.
People came back at her in that thread criticizing her for suggesting that we should all forget the Beastie Boys' past...but that wasn't what she was suggesting.
THEN it spiraled a bit, in my opinion.

Just thought I'd clear that up.

And I dunno -
I just feel like that was one of those moments where the guy could have said, "Sorry - it was the only quote I remember from the article."
And that would probably have been the end of it.
That's all I'm saying, that a little understanding from the other side to just acknowledge the girl's feeling - just in that simple way - could have stopped the debate where it stood, before the actual complaint got entangled in all these other things that it didn't really start out as.

I disagree with that interpretation but I guess we'll have to leave it there.
Thanks for the discussion and for not questioning my honesty/integrity, really. (unlike someone else I could think of) ;).

[Sir SkratchaLot]

From Louis CK's appearance on The Daily Show after the Daniel Tosh controversy:

"This is also about men and women…Couples are fighting about Daniel Tosh and rape jokes... But they’re both making a classic gender mistake. Because the women are saying ‘This is how I feel about this.’ But they’re also saying ‘My feelings should be everyone’s primary concern.’ But the men are making this mistake, they’re saying ‘Your feelings don’t matter. Your feelings are wrong, and your feelings are stupid.’…To the men I say, ‘Listen. Listen to what the women are saying for a minute.’ And to the women, I say ‘Now that we heard you, you know, shut the fuck up for a minute.’"

LOL!

[Sir SkratchaLot]

So, when can I expect to see some of this energy put into "sonning" these dress-up dorks?

[MCA4ever]

From Louis CK's appearance on The Daily Show after the Daniel Tosh controversy:

"This is also about men and women…Couples are fighting about Daniel Tosh and rape jokes... But they’re both making a classic gender mistake. Because the women are saying ‘This is how I feel about this.’ But they’re also saying ‘My feelings should be everyone’s primary concern.’ But the men are making this mistake, they’re saying ‘Your feelings don’t matter. Your feelings are wrong, and your feelings are stupid.’…To the men I say, ‘Listen. Listen to what the women are saying for a minute.’ And to the women, I say ‘Now that we heard you, you know, shut the fuck up for a minute.’"

I can live with that ;)

[WhoMoi?]

So, when can I expect to see some of this energy put into "sonning" these dress-up dorks?

:D

I had never heard "son" used as a verb before this thread, so I don't think I'd be too much help with that.

[Megalon X]

I think I'd need more specifics about what you actually view as flawed in this view to respond to this. It's pretty much not debatable that most people lived in places that were politically and economically controlled by men for a long time, up until the last half century or so, wouldn't you agree?Because it casts the woman as the victim in a system designed to persecute them. It doesn't treat men and women as equals in that sense, which is what a real civil rights movement should be about in the context of a democratic system, since one is the persecuted and the other is the persecutor. That's why I don't view it as a civil rights movement and would rather use the term women's rights movement. It would be like describing MLK as a figure of the Black Power movement. He wasn't. This isn't a very useful way of approaching things in a true democratic system, that despite some people's opinions, is what we have in the United States.

Not claiming to be talking about anywhere else though. Obviously, I'm not an expert on society in Saudi Arabia or even Russia.

I do disagree with this. The idea of women's rights is THE one current theme throughout all the various "offshoots" of feminism. Any other widely disputable beliefs that different specific groups within feminism have espoused (one example: the idea some had to exclude lesbians, as you mentioned before, back in the 1960s by NOW/Betty Friedan) have not become part of the broad, basic definition of feminism. (Friedan has since changed her views on that and apologized).I'd refer to that as a mainstream feminist view point at the time. Regardless, I do understand why it happened. Feminism is hostile towards masculinity and sexual urges directed at females and the female form. Since a good chunk of lesbians encompass those three things, they are marginalized by the views of many feminists despite stereotypes that suggest other wise. I mainly see feminism, at least in the US ( again I'm not claiming to talk about people living in Iran or something), sometimes designed only to argue on behalf of privileged, white, educated, straight women. People may have tried to address this in academia, but I see it usually boiling down back to that in how arguments I hear are presented to me by people claiming to carry the feminist mantra.

There are some comments below it where people have complained about the "label;" unfortunately, we still need a word for it, IMO.I don't think the word feminism works just on the level of being a term. Why? Because feminism sounds more like "feminine" than "female" imo. The fact the terms patriarchy and patriarchal are obviously masculine terms helps support this notion. So in a sense, just from the stand point of the terms, it's makes it as more about gender than sex, which are totally different concepts. It casts femininity as good and masculinity as bad on that very basic level.

It's also kind of weird sometimes. Like there are people who argued for the adoption of terms like fire-fighters over firemen when there are gender specific terms pretty engrained in feminism.

This is a good point. The only issue I see here in comparing it to feminism as a term, is that the LGBT community in the U.S. is still fighting for some political rights, in addition to the social piece of it, whereas American women already have the same political rights as men; we're through that hoop already. So the term "civil rights," and the subcategorical terms "LGBT rights" and "women's rights" really refer more to - well - rights, in a legal sense. I tend to use the word "feminism" when I'm talking about the social aspect of it. There really isn't any other term for the social aspect of the issues for any of the causes within civil rights, is there? "Anti-sexism," "anti-racism," "anti-homophobia" - those all sound awkward.I think there's a huge differences beyond that even on a social level. The LGBT crowd is not elitist at all, they are inclusive almost by definition. Political correctness also doesn't factor into it for similar reasons. This is definitely a contrast imo. The fact they still experience overt discrimination more often than other groups probably helps give them a more rounder viewpoint on the whole.

I can only speak for myself, but I didn't feel personally disrespected - as an individual person - when I watched that. But it does portray the boys kind of regarding and using women for specific purposes, don't you think? Not to say many other guys don't do that - but seeing it on video can be a little obnoxious, and knowing that millions of people have seen it (and seeing the comments below the original video of it on YouTube, indicating that many think "those were the days") and how some fans back in that day took that stuff seriously - that's what makes me have an "icky" feeling about it.Well, I don't know if anyone is saying you don't have to feel icky about it. That response is fine to something you don't enjoy watching. But when making moral arguments, you have to differentiate. I'm a very non-violent person that doesn't really believe in violence, but I also watch extremely violent Italian horror films like Suspiria, Tenebre, etc. Frankly, I find people that argue against horror films as morally reprehensible and promoting real world violence to be very annoying.

NWA was also probably pretty huge with the same white music buying public, and I don't think many of those suburbanites went out shooting people and disrespecting police officers after listening to Straight Outta Compton.

I'm also reminded of another clip on youtube of DEVO repsponding to accusations of being sexist because of the video for Whip It, and I agree with all the arguments they made about people just not "getting it."

I realize that there are stories of the Beasties getting really out of control on tour, blurring the line significantly, but I don't know. I'm just not going to take a position on that right now because I would again need more info. But they definitely weren't an outlier in regards to 80's music acts that were designed as vehicles to achieve a certain lifestyle.

This is a really interesting point! But actually, I do remember reading an article awhile back - it was like an editorial type of piece, I think - where a guy was complaining about that, how he didn't appreciate men being portrayed as just "dumb husbands" on sitcoms these days.That's not the entire story though. The men are portrayed as "dumb husbands" to compliment the "empowered, intelligent wife" characters in those shows. The makers of those shows think they have to portray the women like that to not be criticized by feminists, so they shift those attributes over to the men.

To me that's kind of messed up I think. You shouldn't create art like that just to pre-emptively deflect criticism. I also think that the attribute of "being dumb" is not a sex based trait. So it should be fine to portray either the wife or husband as being dumb. But that's what political correctness does, it ends up with results like that one.

The answer isn't making both the husband and wife smart at the same time, because then there's no entertainment at all. You can't have entertainment without flawed characters.

And even if there was one article like that you saw, it's not something most men complain about. I'm guessing maybe that article was the one written by someone from a fathers interest group, which suggests ulterior motivations. Over all, guys don't usually complain about negative portrayals of male characters. Negative portrayals are also kind of intrinsic to what makes entertainment and story-telling work imo.

I don't think that's it. A lot of us have had experiences of being objectified or treated in a certain negative way simply BECAUSE we are women. So seeing stuff that shows women (any woman) being treated in a manner that suggests they were basically nothing more than "playthings" to guys can just hit a nerve, for that reason. That's where I'm coming from on it, anyway.
Just seeing a women (like Pam Anderson, whom you mentioned) who is choosing to play up her body in order to profit, or whatever, doesn't bother me in and of itself. Probably because she tends to be portrayed as being in control, at least.That's understandable. No one is going to defend a guy treating a woman badly or like a sex object because she is a woman. But I think objectification is a person to person relationship. Someone else treats another person like an object. That's wrong and sometimes evil, but I just see this concept being over-applied to other things. Like sometimes a certain person that claims to be a feminist will see something with female sex appeal in a magazine, movie or something and refer to it as "objectification," which to me is absurd. That isn't a person to person relationship. The woman that sees the character in a film or model in a magazine is not that woman. It's just artwork.

Some people act like just having female sex appeal in entertainment or the media is the same thing as a guy whistling at a girl and saying sexist things to her on the street, and that's where people start to get turned off I think. It makes huge assumptions that all men that consume such things are sexist jerks, which is ridiculous.

I guess seeing a girl having honey dumped on her randomly is not the same as Baywatch. I don't claim to enjoy watching that stuff with a degrading edge to it, but it's still not super serious imo. While I like stuff with empowered women, some women are also just submissive by nature. They choose to be so, it's not forced upon them I think. So I don't think every female portrayal has to be empowered, just as I wouldn't argue for the same for males (even if there's an imbalance proportionally in portrayals).

I again really don't like sexist men in real life and tend to avoid being around them. However, there's at least some protections in modern society against being their playthings if you don't want to that didn't exist some decades ago. According to current US law, touching someone in any way without their permission is assault.

It did bother me once when I read something about Jessica Simpson trying to give girls advice on how to attract guys, and she mentioned that she would act "dumb" on purpose, because she thought guys liked that. That did bug me, because she was actually suggesting this to a broad audience of women, which would include her fans, a lot of whom are preteen and teenage girls.
So I guess maybe there are a lot of factors that play into what irks me on this issue. It's complicated!Acting dumb and being uneducated and actually dumb are two separate things. I don't know. If she differentiated between that, I don't see it as being a big deal. She would still be using strategy which involves intelligence, even if it's slightly dishonest.

The thing about the "dumb blonde stereotype" is I think plenty of women derive escapism or empowerment from it some ways. This may seem odd for me to suggest, but the biggest example of that stereotype is Marilyn Monroe I think, and she and characters like her personas are very popular with women. It's more about fun and shouldn't be taken extremely seriously.

But many women don't have a choice when it comes to that, sadly - especially in certain parts of the world, but even in my part of the world, there are women who are oppressed within their own households or workplaces, for whatever reason. :( That's why it's important to still talk about this stuff.Not saying these things shouldn't be talked about. It is pretty pathetic for example that the equal pay act was only passed three years ago. And yeah, battered women, etc. do need more resources available to them in general.

But this is about how you frame the argument I think. You shouldn't have to bring all this weird gender stuff and stuff regarding things that aren't oppressive like the passive activity of experiencing art into an argument designed to stop oppression. I'm not saying that you do that, but that's what other people under the umbrella of feminism tend to do.

Whew - Megalon X, you gave me a lot to think about and respond to! This may be my longest post ever. :-OI don't really think in succinct thoughts so that was bound to happen. lol

[MCAadROCKMiKEd7]

Is this all about that LTI vid when MCA sticks his hand down that girls skirt for like what, 3 seconds? Its not like he finger banged her on video. Also, he was young as hell in his prime in the 80's. Different person, different state of mind, different time.

(Didnt see that girl objecting btw :P)

[WhoMoi?]

I don't think the word feminism works just on the level of being a term. Why? Because feminism sounds more like "feminine" than "female" imo. The fact the terms patriarchy and patriarchal are obviously masculine terms helps support this notion. So in a sense, just from the stand point of the terms, it's makes it as more about gender than sex, which are totally different concepts. It casts femininity as good and masculinity as bad on that very basic level.
Interesting. I've never heard anything about that.

It's also kind of weird sometimes. Like there are people who argued for the adoption of terms like fire-fighters over firemen when there are gender specific terms pretty engrained in feminism.
I've worked in public schools for 10 years now, and I'm still not used to all the newer PC terms we have to use...like saying "mail carrier" instead of mailman, and "firefighter" instead of fireman. :)

I think there's a huge differences beyond that even on a social level. The LGBT crowd is not elitist at all, they are inclusive almost by definition. Political correctness also doesn't factor into it for similar reasons. This is definitely a contrast imo. The fact they still experience overt discrimination more often than other groups probably helps give them a more rounder viewpoint on the whole.

I went to a women's college for a year, and the lesbian population there was actually very "elitist!" It isn't really relevant to this topic, but I just had to share that, because I think one's sex/sexual orientation/religion/race in and of itself doesn't have bearing on their tendency to act in that way.

I really feel that the exclusion of lesbian and bisexual women from the feminist movement was by just select groups/individuals, and is definitely NOT currently an ideal of feminism. Kathleen Hanna has drawn attention to and participated in various events, etc., involving the LGBT community. There are many lesbians who do identify themselves as feminists, although I understand that this isn't the case for your friends and they have expressed their reasons for that.

Obviously, we all view this f-word in different ways, and some people don't like it because of the negative stuff that has been associated with it. So maybe I'll attempt to use a different term in the future. Again, I appreciate you sharing this stuff that I otherwise wouldn't have known.

Well, I don't know if anyone is saying you don't have to feel icky about it. That response is fine to something you don't enjoy watching. But when making moral arguments, you have to differentiate. I'm a very non-violent person that doesn't really believe in violence, but I also watch extremely violent Italian horror films like Suspiria, Tenebre, etc. Frankly, I find people that argue against horror films as morally reprehensible and promoting real world violence to be very annoying.
I'm not trying to make a moral argument. I don't expect everybody to agree on this stuff, because we all have different perceptions/perspectives. I'm just asking for a little understanding...and if another poster can't understand when a girl expresses discomfort about some of the old stuff posted here, then my hope is that they could at least be rational rather than insulting in his/her response.

Acting dumb and being uneducated and actually dumb are two separate things. I don't know. If she differentiated between that, I don't see it as being a big deal. She would still be using strategy which involves intelligence, even if it's slightly dishonest.

The thing about the "dumb blonde stereotype" is I think plenty of women derive escapism or empowerment from it some ways. This may seem odd for me to suggest, but the biggest example of that stereotype is Marilyn Monroe I think, and she and characters like her personas are very popular with women. It's more about fun and shouldn't be taken extremely seriously.
Definitely, women use this to their advantage at times. I'm not saying it doesn't take some intelligence on JS's part to do that...it totally does. I just don't think it's a great idea to suggest to young women that their intelligence isn't appreciated by most guys, so they should play that down/be wary of expressing certain thoughts, ideas, etc. That kind of thinking just seems to set us back a bit, in my mind.

[WhoMoi?]

Is this all about that LTI vid when MCA sticks his hand down that girls skirt for like what, 3 seconds?

Nope, not exactly.

[Kid Presentable]

Nope, not exactly.

What is it about, then?

[Megalon X]

I went to a women's college for a year, and the lesbian population there was actually very "elitist!" It isn't really relevant to this topic, but I just had to share that, because I think one's sex/sexual orientation/religion/race in and of itself doesn't have bearing on their tendency to act in that way.I didn't say it did. I'm contrasting the LGBT right's movement against feminists, not lesbians against straight girls or whatever. I've know plenty of jerks in almost every minority group (although more in some, experiencing discrimination tends to humble some people). I'm just talking about how the movement is perceived and how their arguments are framed.

Another point I think is feminism is more rooted in the world of academia for a lot of people (again, I'm not talking about people who use the "f word" that obviously have many more problems on the street level like in Iran or wherever else), which is elitist by design. Just reading some feminist academic journals was enough to almost make me overdose on it, and then I hear that stuff repeated later on people's blogs in their condescending diatribes of gobbledy gook that no one else is in the real world is going to be able to relate to. Yet, some people think that can be used to beat others over the head. lol

Anyways, I understand where you're coming from. Not trying to be overly harsh here. Just sharing some alternate opinions. You mentioned women not wanting to be identified as feminists, and I'm giving you some insight into reasons why I would think that would be the case.

I really feel that the exclusion of lesbian and bisexual women from the feminist movement was by just select groups/individuals, and is definitely NOT currently an ideal of feminism. Kathleen Hanna has drawn attention to and participated in various events, etc., involving the LGBT community. There are many lesbians who do identify themselves as feminists, although I understand that this isn't the case for your friends and they have expressed their reasons for that. Never said it was a current ideal. Obviously, people got mad about that, rebelled against it, etc. But I still think the theories that are the foundation of the entire thing are very biased and that was one symptom that developed at one point in time because of it. Just my point of view.

I'm not trying to make a moral argument. I don't expect everybody to agree on this stuff, because we all have different perceptions/perspectives. I'm just asking for a little understanding...and if another poster can't understand when a girl expresses discomfort about some of the old stuff posted here, then my hope is that they could at least be rational rather than insulting in his/her response.Understood. Honestly, I dislike the regular suspects that probably acted like this so I wouldn't defend them regardless.

Definitely, women use this to their advantage at times. I'm not saying it doesn't take some intelligence on JS's part to do that...it totally does. I just don't think it's a great idea to suggest to young women that their intelligence isn't appreciated by most guys, so they should play that down/be wary of expressing certain thoughts, ideas, etc. That kind of thinking just seems to set us back a bit, in my mind.Sure, wanting to encourage people to be learned, use critical thinking, etc. is valuable. I'm also not going to claim to really know the context she was speaking in either. So I don't know how much I would defend her since I don't know whether she was talking about girls just trying to act cute (which I don't think would a big deal) or that they should actually pretend to be stupid all the time. I'll let you make that call.

On the other end of the spectrum, however, certain people, including those that use the f word to describe their selves, can take this line of thought way too far. Like I've seen certain feminists lashing out against stuff that is girly in the media like characters that like shopping, overly shallow girly cartoons, etc. with the argument that it's not conductive to convincing women and girls to be more academic and business like.

To me, it's pretty ignorant and equates to wanting to rain on people's parades and take their fun girly stuff away. I don't see any male entities arguing that more masculine junk like video games or pro-wrestling or whatever else should be made less shallow. Some stuff just isn't supposed to be serious.

In the end though, while you want to convince more women to be involved in the work place, politics, academia, etc., some people just don't want to be involved with that stuff. It's a choice to them, and it's not because they don't realize their potential or whatever else. I also don't think taking one option makes that person superior to someone else that doesn't really have much interest in those kinds of pursuits.

And, well, I think this may be my last reply. Nothing personal, but if a debate goes over a week long, it's generally my policy to move on because then we could be talking back and forth forever. LOL. If you want a last word though, go ahead and take it. I think I made most of the points I wanted to anyways. Thanks for the discussion!

[WhoMoi?]

In the end though, while you want to convince more women to be involved in the work place, politics, academia, etc., some people just don't want to be involved with that stuff. It's a choice to them, and it's not because they don't realize their potential or whatever else. I also don't think taking one option makes that person superior to someone else that doesn't really have much interest in those kinds of pursuits.
(y)
I totally agree. I'm not about that at all...that just goes to the opposite extreme, and some women trying to fulfill yet other "roles" just for the sake of it, and not really being themselves. I fulfill a lot of girly stereotypes myself! :)

And, well, I think this may be my last reply. Nothing personal, but if a debate goes over a week long, it's generally my policy to move on because then we could be talking back and forth forever. LOL. If you want a last word though, go ahead and take it. I think I made most of the points I wanted to anyways. Thanks for the discussion!
Don't want a last word, but just wanted to reiterate that I appreciate all that you've shared. I didn't view it as a debate, but more as a discussion. You definitely made me aware of some aspects of feminism that I didn't know about, and helped me see another point of view on some things. So, thanks! :)

[WhoMoi?]

What is it about, then?
Did you ever end up reading my first post? That might answer your question.
But if you did and it still isn't clear...

This recurring incident (there have been others besides just the most recent thread with the video):
1. girl expresses a thought/feeling re: disrespect to women, as they feel it relates to the topic or something previously posted in the thread
2. some other posters say some things like "shut up," "eff off," etc., to said girl

I was trying to get the posters from #2 above to share where they are coming from and what prompts them to respond in that way, because it seemed unnecessarily harsh to me, and also seemed strange given that we're all Beastie Boys fans here and that kind of response doesn't seem in keeping with their later message about that stuff. I'd noticed that some of the people who responded that way were guys whom I've never seen that type of thing from before, so I figured that there had to be more behind it than I knew. And there was, in some cases.

I definitely got what I asked for. :) I actually have learned a lot from this, and I appreciate that people have shared their thoughts and kept it civil.

[Kid Presentable]

Couldn't the women in question just ignore it?

[WhoMoi?]

Couldn't the women in question just ignore it?

Ignore what?

[Kid Presentable]

The stupid responses.

[Lex Diamonds]

Exactly- to be fair most of the men have ignored this plainly sexist diatribe.

[WhoMoi?]

The stupid responses.

They could. Maybe they want to be heard...I can't speak for them on that. Others could ignore rather than making the "stupid responses," too; can't speak for them either.

[WhoMoi?]

Exactly- to be fair most of the men have ignored this plainly sexist diatribe.

By "plainly sexist diatribe," what are you referring to?

[YoungRemy]

shut up , eff off, etc...

[WhoMoi?]

shut up , eff off, etc...

Wasn't sure if he was referring to that or this thread. My response would vary quite a bit depending on which. :)

I appreciate everyone who doesn't respond in that manner, and recognize that it's a handful of people who do.

[Lex Diamonds]

I'm mostly just wondering why someone who is genuinely concerned about the posthumous portrayal of a beloved musician would choose to drag their entire history through the mud in an attempt to "understand" why some men are less mature than others, whilst completely overlooking the fact that they come across as overtly sexist merely by doing so.

[WhoMoi?]

I'm mostly just wondering why someone who is genuinely concerned about the posthumous portrayal of a beloved musician would choose to drag their entire history through the mud in an attempt to "understand" why some men are less mature than others, whilst completely overlooking the fact that they come across as overtly sexist merely by doing so.
I don't know if you're referring to me, but if you are: That hasn't been what I've done at all. I have no interest in doing that, and the thought of that makes me sad and pissed. :(
Quite the opposite...I'm "concerned" with honoring the legacy of a wonderful person by adhering to his message on this topic. See below, see the first post in this thread, see my other posts...I'm done repeating myself on that point.



This recurring incident (there have been others besides just the most recent thread with the video):
1. girl expresses a thought/feeling re: disrespect to women, as they feel it relates to the topic or something previously posted in the thread
2. some other posters say some things like "shut up," "eff off," etc., to said girl

I was trying to get the posters from #2 above to share where they are coming from and what prompts them to respond in that way, because it seemed unnecessarily harsh to me, and also seemed strange given that we're all Beastie Boys fans here and that kind of response doesn't seem in keeping with their later message about that stuff. I'd noticed that some of the people who responded that way were guys whom I've never seen that type of thing from before, so I figured that there had to be more behind it than I knew. And there was, in some cases.

I definitely got what I asked for. :) I actually have learned a lot from this, and I appreciate that people have shared their thoughts
and kept it civil.

Yauch opened up dialogue on a lot of issues, and always broached disagreement with kindness and respect. I remember seeing that even here in his interaction with people on the BBMB.

I was just hoping we could follow his example as it relates to this topic.

[MCA4ever]

I'm mostly just wondering why someone who is genuinely concerned about the posthumous portrayal of a beloved musician would choose to drag their entire history through the mud in an attempt to "understand" why some men are less mature than others, whilst completely overlooking the fact that they come across as overtly sexist merely by doing so.

That isn't what she did. There isn't anything wrong with trying to get others to be a little respectful.

[LilTreyR]

I'm mostly just wondering why someone who is genuinely concerned about the posthumous portrayal of a beloved musician would choose to drag their entire history through the mud in an attempt to "understand" why some men are less mature than others, whilst completely overlooking the fact that they come across as overtly sexist merely by doing so.

Where & how did she "drag their entire history through the mud" :confused:


Yauch opened up dialogue on a lot of issues, and always broached disagreement with kindness and respect. I remember seeing that even here in his interaction with people on the BBMB.

I was just hoping we could follow his example as it relates to this topic.

(y)

[Lex Diamonds]

I'm talking about this whole debate, not just the original post here. There's a lot of generalising going on from both genders and it sucks.

It's good to spark debates on things that need talking about- sexism is one of those things- but be careful it doesn't become detrimental to the band's legacy and fan community.

[MCScoobyT]

If we were all judged on life based on what/who we did between 18-22 years old, the whole world would be going to hell ;)

Over the years I've grown and changed so much / Things I know now, years ago I couldn't touch
There are things I've done that I wouldn't do again / But I'm glad that I did 'cause I learned from them
I just try to stay present, right here, right now / No worries, no fears, and without any doubts

[MCA4ever]

If we were all judged on life based on what/who we did between 18-22 years old, the whole world would be going to hell ;)

Over the years I've grown and changed so much / Things I know now, years ago I couldn't touch
There are things I've done that I wouldn't do again / But I'm glad that I did 'cause I learned from them
I just try to stay present, right here, right now / No worries, no fears, and without any doubts

I totally agree with you on everything you just said. Been there. Done that. For me this whole thing hasn't been as much about feminism as it is just plain old fashioned respect. My husband and "his boys" they get crazy but they tone it down a bit when the girls are around. Just a guess here that most of us are over 30, grown ups right? So each side here should be able to handle a comment or two with out getting so down right hateful, right? It's not always about feminism and most certainly not pointing fingers at the beasties.

[WhoMoi?]

If we were all judged on life based on what/who we did between 18-22 years old, the whole world would be going to hell ;)

Over the years I've grown and changed so much / Things I know now, years ago I couldn't touch
There are things I've done that I wouldn't do again / But I'm glad that I did 'cause I learned from them
I just try to stay present, right here, right now / No worries, no fears, and without any doubts

(y)
So true.
And Yauch always says it best. :)

[Kid Presentable]

I guess the question could be: why do guys need to tone it down for girls? Are some more equal than others? Legit question, not trying to inflame

[WhoMoi?]

I guess the question could be: why do guys need to tone it down for girls? Are some more equal than others? Legit question, not trying to inflame

Good question.
I don't feel like guys need to "tone it down," necessarily (others may have a different opinion). I just personally didn't understand the irate reaction to girls who were saying that something made them feel shitty.

I'm not sure what you mean by "are some more equal than others."

[MCA4ever]

I guess the question could be: why do guys need to tone it down for girls? Are some more equal than others? Legit question, not trying to inflame

Ok, tone it down wasn't the phrase I was looking for. I think :), all I am trying to say is that when there is something put out that is disrespectful or just exploiting anyone, male or female, any comments should be expected and maybe they could be handled differently?

Is that a little better :)

[Sir SkratchaLot]

I guess the question could be: why do guys need to tone it down for girls? Are some more equal than others? Legit question, not trying to inflame

I guess they're saying if you have to say something sexist, try not to do it around women. Same thing goes for racism. If you're going to say something like "I hate those fucking n*&@s", try not to do that around black people.

The larger problem is that many people don't actually have the smarts or self awareness to recognize and acknowledge their piss poor behavior. Most people who say racist shit don't actually think they're saying anything racist. Same thing goes with sexism.

[JohnnyChavello]

I guess they're saying if you have to say something sexist, try not to do it around women. Same thing goes for racism. If you're going to say something like "I hate those fucking n*&@s", try not to do that around black people.

The larger problem is that many people don't actually have the smarts or self awareness to recognize and acknowledge their piss poor behavior. Most people who say racist shit don't actually think they're saying anything racist. Same thing goes with sexism.

Except the comment, or one of the comments, that sparked this whole thread (disclaimer: mine) was not sexist. I've said it more than once already, because I wanted to be clear on the point, but let's get something straight right now: I wasn't upset with the content of the original post because of the identity of the poster, nor did I have anything to say about the poster being a woman, or anything like what you're describing. I was upset because the poster was coming across as a self-important, pretentious ass. Nothing sexist about that, ace.

I'm inclined to start including you in this category of people who "don't actually have the smarts or self awareness to recognize and acknowledge their piss poor behavior." You're getting increasingly far out on this limb and apart from the misleading and nonexistent "quotes" you started including in some of your earlier posts (and have done again in the quote above), I'm getting really tired of this accusation. Can you point to a single post, aside from the person who jumped in to take things too far, that doesn't require a ton of interpetive flips and assumptions in order to be considered sexist on its face?

Who are you talking about, chief? If you want to include me in that group of people you're slandering, have the balls to say that, you hero.

[Kid Presentable]

I guess they're saying if you have to say something sexist, try not to do it around women. Same thing goes for racism. If you're going to say something like "I hate those fucking n*&@s", try not to do that around black people.

The larger problem is that many people don't actually have the smarts or self awareness to recognize and acknowledge their piss poor behavior. Most people who say racist shit don't actually think they're saying anything racist. Same thing goes with sexism.

I guess. I'm pro-woman as hell. I guess I just don't take it seriously enough. No sarcasm. Do we have a 'shrug' emoticon yet?

EDIT: Thank you for the honest reply.

[WhoMoi?]

Except the comment, or one of the comments, that sparked this whole thread (disclaimer: mine) was not sexist. I've said it more than once already, because I wanted to be clear on the point, but let's get something straight right now: I wasn't upset with the content of the original post because of the identity of the poster, nor did I have anything to say about the poster being a woman, or anything like what you're describing. I was upset because the poster was coming across as a self-important, pretentious ass. Nothing sexist about that, ace.
I get that now, because you explained it afterward. But it wasn't easy to understand that based just off of your response to her in that thread. Not trying to be critical (truly) - just trying to make the point that explaining why you're annoyed, angry, etc. is good.

Also: Although your comment and some of the following ones were like the straw that broke the camel's back for me in terms of starting a thread about this, there have been so many other instances over the years beyond that. And now I know that your comments weren't really what I thought they were.

[JohnnyChavello]

I get that now, because you explained it afterward. But it wasn't easy to understand that based just off of your response to her in that thread. Not trying to be critical (truly) - just trying to make the point that explaining why you're annoyed, angry, etc. is good.

Also: Although your comment and some of the following ones were like the straw that broke the camel's back for me in terms of starting a thread about this, there have been so many other instances over the years beyond that. And now I know that your comments weren't really what I thought they were.

Sure. I can get why a post like mine, in a thread that's moving in that direction, might be misunderstood. I think I've already said that. If not, I am now. But for someone (Sir Skratchalot) who's so obviously trying to knock back all of the sexists out there to basically resort to these broad generalizations and imaginary quotes in order to make his case is a little tough to take. Whether it was implied, sloppy, or just stupid, I don't appreciate being called a sexist or compared to a racist.

[Franci]

I guess they're saying if you have to say something sexist, try not to do it around women. Same thing goes for racism. If you're going to say something like "I hate those fucking n*&@s", try not to do that around black people.

The larger problem is that many people don't actually have the smarts or self awareness to recognize and acknowledge their piss poor behavior. Most people who say racist shit don't actually think they're saying anything racist. Same thing goes with sexism.

mmmm...
I don't know...
I guess I'd prefer to know what people truly think, even if it's unpleasant, offensive, or just stupid, rather than being talked behind my back
then you can have a real opinion of that person (If he/she is racist, sexist, fascist....) and treat the person as he/she deserves :D

[Sir SkratchaLot]

Sure. I can get why a post like mine, in a thread that's moving in that direction, might be misunderstood. I think I've already said that. If not, I am now. But for someone (Sir Skratchalot) who's so obviously trying to knock back all of the sexists out there to basically resort to these broad generalizations and imaginary quotes in order to make his case is a little tough to take. Whether it was implied, sloppy, or just stupid, I don't appreciate being called a sexist or compared to a racist.

What I was referring to was how the first response to women raising their concern was "shut up" and when that didn't work, the response was "it's just entertainment" or, if you're Lucie T, you get labeled a slut and there's a reference to fucking her with a wiffleball bat. That's sexism. Nobody is going to come out and say "I'm a sexist", instead, they take sexist actions and then deny there's any sexismm there.

What's even more bothersome to me is that nobody seemed to step and say "this is fucked up." Instead the majority of you are more concerned about whether you're grouped in with the people making sexist comments, or just generally trying to put women in their "place".

I used racism as an example because, for some reason, people are more sensative to that. It's less accepted. In fact, it's so not accepted that when I use it as an example you're already thinking I'm calling you a racist, which I'm not. In fact, I don't think I was referring to you at all.

It is interesting though that if somebody said something that could be perceived as racist, and black people stepped up and said, "hey that's fucked up", how would that go down? Would minorities be told to "shut up" and then would people start justifying it like "it's entertainment". Would more people have chimed in and said "this is wrong"?

When you really break this down there was an obvious line of argument in MCA's favor that there's really no indication that this girl protested and that MCA was just young and probably didn't think "hey if I do this am I putting this girl in a position where she really doesn't want this to go down but she's pressured not to say anything because I'm famous and there are video cameras and expectations about what I'm supposed to do." That's the argument to make. That's probably what Adam would say now. "I was an idiot, and didn't realize the exent of what I COULD HAVE been doing there." People who made that argument were actually grounded, in my opinion. It was the "don't you know groupies are just sluts and this is what they're there for?" type arguments, and the "why do you women always have to bring up sexism" type arguments that are disappointing. The problem I have is that 95% of you let those arguments slide as acceptable responses. To me, this whole thread is a little bit like watching a crime go down and 95% of the people are just spectating saying "I didn't do it" instead of helping to stop it. Again, this is just an example.

[fonky pizza]

The problem I have is that 95% of you let those arguments slide as acceptable responses. To me, this whole thread is a little bit like watching a crime go down and 95% of the people are just spectating saying "I didn't do it" instead of helping to stop it. Again, this is just an example.

95% of us are retarded sexists unconsciously contributing to a crime?

What crime?

[WhoMoi?]

95% of us are retarded sexists unconsciously contributing to a crime?

What crime?

I believe he was using the "crime" example as an analogy.
I don't remember SirSkratchaLot using the "r-word" either. :confused:

[YoungRemy]

Vow to stop bumping this thread.

I'll start.

[WhoMoi?]

Vow to stop bumping this thread.

I'll start.

No one is bumping the thread for the sake of bumping it. People have been making comments and asking questions on the topic. Why does that irk you?

[fonky pizza]

I am working hard on having a very bad reputation:)

BUMP!

[Kid Presentable]

Point taken Sir Skratch. Personally, my reaction was a mixture of pure misunderstanding (which I think I clarified with whomoi) and a fair bit of grief/anger over MCA. One begat the other, sadly. And I was concerned with being lumped in. And that was about it.

I will say, I think it's sexist to assume women can't handle stupid internet behaviour. Doesn't excuse it, but still. I guess that one is on me.

I'd also assume (and forgive me for doing so) that the particular responses were based a little on grief for MCA, too. It seemed sorta disrespectful to focus on that particular act, at this particular time. And so the disrepect was returned in kind. Maybe.

Finally I don't really think the racism analogy works. I'm offended by racism and sexism for sure, but I really didn't see the latter at work. I can't tell you how to react, though.

[BGirl]

Sir SkratchaLot gets it. Really gets it. (y)

If I may, this classic essay by Douglas Hofstadter further illustrates the point on racism and sexism:

http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html

[Kid Presentable]

Not saying: "this is fucked up" makes a person sexist, though. It's not an endorsement of sexism just because this particular situation doesnt seem all that sexist. What if you guys are just over-reacting?

[Micodin]

While my actions on this thread might have been over the top and rude. I chalk it up mostly due to the death of Yauch still being raw with myself.

When I see words like "rape" and "molesting" and yada yada yada targeted at a deceased inspirational hero of mine since '86. I get pretty damn defensive and go full on beast mode on anyone that attacks him, his character, or credibility. Even if that wasn't the full intent of the conversation.

I apologize for saying "shut up" and whatever else I might of said. I stopped contributing to this thread pages ago so I forgot what I might of said in the heat of the moment.

One final thought.

Beastie Boys Chappelle Show Video 2004 "The New Style" (http://bbs.beastieboys.com/showthread.php?t=97973&highlight=dave+chappelle) thread > Posters annoyed with the Beastie Boys/feminism conversation: Please read and resp thread

[Sir SkratchaLot]

Word. I still want that HD Chappelle video.

[YoungRemy]

No one is bumping the thread for the sake of bumping it. People have been making comments and asking questions on the topic. Why does that irk you?

because my opinion is it's an old tired topic.

not for the sake of bumping, but for the sake of arguing/discussion.

it's pointless but I guess it has a point- to understand what others think about it

but honestly, taking a "I'm not sure if I am understanding your point or if that was directed at me" approach; doesn't do much for the discussion either...

and someone will respond to me with a long-winded answer and I won't read it.

I have failed.

[BGirl]

It's not really an old tired topic, though, when there is a sexist streak running through this community. I believe it's there because of fans attracted by the band's behavior in the early days. It's something I noticed early on and is a big reason I don't post or hang around here much anymore. I happened to pop in a few weeks ago when this thread began and I've followed it with interest.

It is unfortunate that an old video clip of our fallen hero that I feel certain he would be ashamed of is what touched off this discussion, especially when he is not here to defend himself. But at the same time, he doesn't need to - he made it clear that he regretted that behavior. He knew it was wrong to treat women that way and spoke out about it. It's a big part of his legacy. The problem is that so many of his fans don't get it, still to this day. Some have openly pined for the old days when the band carried on like that. So I think Yauch would be glad to see discussions such as this one happening. "The disrespect to women has go to be through…"

It is disappointing to see the various attempts to shut down the discussion. But it's not surprising. Men have power over women and some don't want to give it up. It's as simple as that. That's what this thread is about in my understanding, not Yauch's behavior per se.

[YoungRemy]

so if it's not about Yauch's behavior per se, and it's not about the incident filmed over 25 years ago, and it's about "men not wanting to give up their power over women", (although many women have agreed with many of the men in this thread) then why are we talking about it on the main page of the beastie boys forum?

I'm just interested in the B-boys...

[Kid Presentable]

Men have power over women and some don't want to give it up. It's as simple as that.

I typed 'hahaha' but it was dumb of me. I just don't completely agree with what you're saying there - having been on the other side I can assure you it's quite the two-way street. Really sorry your own experiences (I'm assuming) have shaped your view.

[Brass Monk]

It's not really an old tired topic, though, when there is a sexist streak running through this community. I believe it's there because of fans attracted by the band's behavior in the early days. It's something I noticed early on and is a big reason I don't post or hang around here much anymore. I happened to pop in a few weeks ago when this thread began and I've followed it with interest.



Honestly there is not much of a sexist streak in this community. Most of the people arguing with the "feminists" don't object to their beliefs, just the way they interject their beliefs into everything, often inappropriately. It's kinda crazy that this hasn't sunk in by now.

[MCA4ever]

Honestly there is not much of a sexist streak in this community. Most of the people arguing with the "feminists" don't object to their beliefs, just the way they interject their beliefs into everything, often inappropriately. It's kinda crazy that this hasn't sunk in by now.

Since we are being honest here- it is tiring reading the same bs from you. Let it go. I don't feel this thread is any longer a debate. It's more or less a place for people to state their opinions about how they feel. Brassmonk, can you let others do that? And without getting into it all over again with you?

If you want to continue to take shots at anyone (me specifically) do it with a pm.

[Brass Monk]

Since we are being honest here- it is tiring reading the same bs from you. Let it go. I don't feel this thread is any longer a debate. It's more or less a place for people to state their opinions about how they feel. Brassmonk, can you let others do that? And without getting into it all over again with you?

If you want to continue to take shots at anyone (me specifically) do it with a pm.



:confused::mad::)

I don't know what a PM is

[WhoMoi?]

While my actions on this thread might have been over the top and rude. I chalk it up mostly due to the death of Yauch still being raw with myself.

When I see words like "rape" and "molesting" and yada yada yada targeted at a deceased inspirational hero of mine since '86. I get pretty damn defensive and go full on beast mode on anyone that attacks him, his character, or credibility. Even if that wasn't the full intent of the conversation.

I apologize for saying "shut up" and whatever else I might of said. I stopped contributing to this thread pages ago so I forgot what I might of said in the heat of the moment.

Nice. Thanks, Micodin. :)


One final thought.

Beastie Boys Chappelle Show Video 2004 "The New Style" (http://bbs.beastieboys.com/showthread.php?t=97973&highlight=dave+chappelle) thread > Posters annoyed with the Beastie Boys/feminism conversation: Please read and resp thread
Well, duh. ;)


because my opinion is it's an old tired topic.

not for the sake of bumping, but for the sake of arguing/discussion.

it's pointless but I guess it has a point- to understand what others think about it
Understandable that you think it's an old tired topic. What would make sense is for you to just say your piece and not go into the thread anymore then, right? I avoid threads that I'm not interested in, and I'm not sure why anyone else wouldn't do the same. I realize that I requested that people who were annoyed with the topic join the thread and give their 2 cents, so I'm glad that you did, but continuing to come in here and say "stop bumping this thread" just because you deem it to be "old and tired," is kind of obnoxious. Obviously not everyone is going to be interested in every topic here. People who aren't interested in a certain thread just leave it alone. I have pretty much nothing to say about your orinthology thread but haven't been jumping in there saying how everyone should vow to stop bumping it.


but honestly, taking a "I'm not sure if I am understanding your point or if that was directed at me" approach; doesn't do much for the discussion either...
Well, I feel like that is a great element of discussion, personally - talking about things so that each side can better understand each other. Guess we differ in our perception of the definition of what makes for a good dialogue.


and someone will respond to me with a long-winded answer and I won't read it.
That makes you really, really cool - right? :rolleyes:


so if it's not about Yauch's behavior per se, and it's not about the incident filmed over 25 years ago, and it's about "men not wanting to give up their power over women", (although many women have agreed with many of the men in this thread) then why are we talking about it on the main page of the beastie boys forum?

I'm just interested in the B-boys...
From my end, I'm not interested in discussing the behavior of the BBoys back in the day, as far as analyzing it, talking about who's to blame for what, etc., because I already have my own feelings about it, and the Beastie Boys changed and more than made up for any indiscretions since that time. They're definitely the most amazing guys I've ever known of when it comes to promoting respect for women, etc. It's one of the many reasons I've come to be a huge fan of them as people, aside from just their music.

The topic/thread is still completely Beastie-related, IMO, because the comments that I was asking about were on the BBMB, in Beastie General threads, in reaction to old-timey Beastie stuff that is posted, and it's some of us trying to understand why some Beastie fans don't seem to understand why a girl might feel sad/confused/icky/frustrated when being re-exposed to some of that old Beastie stuff.

Most of us come here for a positive experience related to the band that we love. When some of us aren't feeling that positivity, it's frustrating. I like being part of a fan community and was confused by the discord in it - a discord that was really hitting a nerve with some people - so I sought to better understand what was behind it. Whatever people might say about this thread, or the topic, or whatever, it definitely had the outcome that I was looking for - I now understand the point of view of a few guys whose reactions I was totally confused by.

I just like things to be positive and happy for everyone - even on the interwebz. I'm kind of unrealistic that way. Sue me. :p

[LilTreyR]

I just like things to be positive and happy for everyone

Nah, it's too much fun being nasty, intimidating, critical, & hatin, right?

In a perfect world whomoi ;)

[Sir SkratchaLot]

I just want to point out that since this thread started there's been at least 2 new posts about playing dress up like the Beastie Boys and nobody has bombarded those threads with "shut up, this has already been done to death!"

I'm just sayin'.

[WhoMoi?]

Nah, it's too much fun being nasty, intimidating, critical, & hatin, right?

In a perfect world whomoi ;)
:)

I just want to point out that since this thread started there's been at least 2 new posts about playing dress up like the Beastie Boys and nobody has bombarded those threads with "shut up, this has already been done to death!"

I'm just sayin'.
True. It is Halloween, though. :p