do you feel that bullying serves a purpose?

[TurdBerglar]

I feel that bullying is some sort of instinctual thing. it's done everywhere all across the board. I feel it whips people into shape. of course it can go too far and not accomplish anything but I think that's the case just a fraction of the time.

looking back the kids that were bullied in school were generally kids that had shit parents. either parents that were too soft, accommodating and babied their kids or parents that were just uninterested, too busy, or had too fucked up lives themselves to be parents. basically bad parents and the bullying kinda served as surrogate parenting. the kids instilling their values through bullying taught by their parents as a whole are more than likely better than bullied kids' parents values taught.

remember those kids that were just so fucking weird that they had nothing to contribute? as if their parents didn't pay attention to them or didn't pay attention to them in a way that was conducive? no one could relate to them. now think of that guy that you work with that's still like that. how difficult is that person to deal with? he's very argumentative and thinks he's the only one around and doesn't understand teamwork and the concept of the whole. and EVERYONE wants to kick his whiney ass? how much of a contribution does he serve?

I think bullying and the fear of bullying whips that selfish self absorbed attitude out of people.

of course it can go too far and be very damaging. I think that's what the problem is today. kids are treated as if they're these masterpieces well before they've even proved themselves to be anything but. the kids that are treated as masterpieces are given this sense of superiority. the kids that aren't treated as masterpieces feel that they've been given this shit hand in life and become very depressed over absolutely nothing. when the kids that feel TOO good about themselves pick on the kids that feel TOO bad about themselves is when the shit hits the fan.

[Dorothy Wood]

Right now there's a whole anti-bullying thing that is kind of over the top and not helpful. I really think people just love labels. And also they love not having to take responsibility for things, so they can just call a kid a bully and not actually talk to him/her about why he/she is being a jerk.

I was bullied in 2nd grade. I transferred schools in the middle of the year because of divorce, but I wasn't really depressed or anything, just shy. I didn't really jibe with the teacher's teaching methods, so I fell behind and she put my desk by her desk so she could help me. And then all of a sudden I wasn't just the new kid, I was considered the "teacher's pet". So I was subject to recess tauntings by almost everyone in my class plus other classes once word spread. I got punched every day.
Then my neighbors I walked to and from school with decided they would pretend to be my friends and like me, then lure me into a false sense of comfort before eventually launching into a tirade of insults while walking home together one day, then never talk to me again. (I remember them calling me a slut and telling me I wanted to eat a penis like a hot dog...I was like, "uhh, what?" lol).

None of this served a purpose other than to make me not trust anyone and make me hate adults. (I mean, how do you not notice a group of 20+ kids taunting a little girl? How do you not notice that I was always getting punched? wtf, teachers?!) Luckily I made friends with a couple other "weird" girls nobody liked who were really nice. My mom was cool and I didn't really have low self-esteem yet, so the bullying didn't ruin my life or anything. I mostly just thought "wow, you people are all nuts!"

After that I kind of just stood up for myself calmly when people made fun of me for any reason, then I started playing sports and that's like spraying yourself with anti-bully spray. One time in high school a "tough" chick who had a locker near me tried to start shit with me, but I exploded with rage and ripped her to shreds verbally. Word spread and then nobody ever said shit to me again. That ruled.

It helps that I never cared that people thought I was weird. I was like whatever, you guys are boring, being weird is cool (it was the 90s after all). So I grew up to find other weirdos who are actually more normal to me overall. So maybe bullying did serve a purpose, it drove me to seek like-minded people and a place to live where I was accepted.


I kinda just wrote all that to sort it out in my mind, it is very long, oops. coulda been longer though.

[bigblu89]

I wasn't bullied in school, but was picked on a lot because of my weight.

I also went though most of childhood living the mantra of "treat others like you want to be treated, even if they aren't treating you how you would like to be treated" It's a mantra I still use today, but though most of grade school and high school it was a mantra that didn't lend itself to much popularity.

I also think the definition of "bullying" has be changed since I was in school. I always though of bullying as being physical. Now not wanting someone to sit with you at lunch is considered bullying. I think that's a little extreme.

The one thing I wish all kids knew as the grow up was that cliques are bound to happen, and in the long run, they don't mean shit.

[TurdBerglar]

i was the only white kid in the neighborhood i grew up in and the only white kid from the hood in the school full of preppy suburbanites in the school i was sent to. i stuck out like a sore thumb in each setting. in school the kids didn't like the hoodrat tendencies i had acquired because of who i grew up with. if i didn't have those kids around to let me know that being hood is not a good thing i probably would have never figured that out till much later. i still preferred the kids/friends from my neighborhood, though. they weren't nearly as concerned about fitting in but were more concerned about if you were a pussy or not.

[TurdBerglar]

I also think the definition of "bullying" has be changed since I was in school. I always though of bullying as being physical. Now not wanting someone to sit with you at lunch is considered bullying. I think that's a little extreme.

i think it's considered bullying now because kids are much more cliquey. if one kid hates you than everyone hates you or is afraid to befriend so they don't get associated with the loser. kids are much more concerned about these types of things rather than just fucking around and being a kid.

look at what kids wear today. they go to fucking school dressed better than i ever would. i remember going to school in like third grade wearing a Garfield sweat suit. and it wasn't something to be made fun of because someone else was wearing a goofy sweat suit and someone else was wearing a my little pony or care bare sweat suit. in high school it was just ratty jeans and a t-shirt like everyone else. kids dress up now as if there were going out. they're all trying to have an image. that's way too much frivolous stress. and if you don't have the right image or no image at all kids are going to hate your guts and not want to be seen with you.

but i think it may make you a tougher more sound person when you get older if it hasn't done too much damage.

[russhie]

I don't think being bullied makes you 'tougher' than someone who hasn't been bullied. I was relatively popular in school and was never bullied but I'm quite tough when I need to be.

These days it's not so much traditional schoolyard bullying that's a worry anyway, it's all the insidious online shit most of us missed out on - I was 22 when I got Facebook and never bothered with Myspace. My fiancé's cousin is 15 and the utter shit she and her friends broadcast amazes me, it's like there is a whole generation of people who have no idea about the concept of privacy (or lack of) and how their behaviours online now will impact their lives later (the internet never forgets). I've seen hate campaigns played out publicly on Facebook between teenagers and it's hard to see how this has an upside - bullying used to be confined to the one place, now the internet can make kids who are bullied feel that nowhere is safe.

[ms.peachy]

That ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[M|X|Y]

I don't think being bullied makes you 'tougher' than someone who hasn't been bullied.


don't think having to face adversity early on makes you more prepared to face adversity in the future?

[russhie]

don't think having to face adversity early on makes you more prepared to face adversity in the future?

Not necessarily. I think being raised as an aware human being helps. I was raised by both parents in a stable middle class home. For the most part, we were comfortable and I can't think of anything during my childhood that might be considered as facing adversity - I was very lucky. But also very aware of how this made me lucky.

Of course shitty things happen from time to time in life but, for the most part, as an adult my coping skills have been more than adequate when required. I don't see how this could have been improved by being bullied at school.

[M|X|Y]

so personally for you no but generally yes?

[TurdBerglar]

don't think having to face adversity early on makes you more prepared to face adversity in the future?

it most certainly does. any type of competition does. unless the person is too weak minded or the competition is too severe that it leaves the person too fucked in the head. it teaches you how to deal with people and situations.

I don't understand why they're taking competition away from little kids. gym classes are totally different now. they seem to give the kids the option to do something totally passive. I think that's horrible. just because a handful of kids can't handle it doesn't mean it should be taken away. that's not how life works or should work. we don't live in a utopia. it's never going to be a utopia. stop trying to raise kids to live in a utopia that we're trying to obtain. people are becoming less and less critical of their kids and it's making them naïve, soft and self absorbed.

[Dorothy Wood]

I'm not against competition, but what kind of adversity happens when you're an adult that bullying would prepare you for?

I know adults who behave like bullies still and it actually works against them. One chick I hate who I've posted about here was basically cyber bullying/slut shaming another grown woman via Facebook because she slept with some guy who had a girlfriend. She and another person harassed her to the point that she deleted her account. However, the bullies were the ones who everyone shunned quietly and now I never even see that bitchy woman at all because she was climbing a social ladder and it got kicked out from under her because she was a jerk.

[TurdBerglar]

just learning how to deal with people like that and people in general and how to subdue or even eliminate the situation before it escalates. learning things about yourself on how you react to certain situations and how to react to your own needs. realizing that it really isn't that big of a deal and not becoming too emotional about it not making the situation even more of a stressful problem. developing tough skin and realizing how fucking petty everything really is including your own fucking problems. peoples' own emotions and self absorbedness tend to fuck things up more for themselves than the actual problem fucks things up. perseverance i guess is the word im looking for. people that are/were really sheltered break down much more easily it seems.

enduring stress makes stressful things less stressful later on because you realize it's not a big fucking deal after it all ends.

[russhie]

enduring stress makes stressful things less stressful later on because you realize it's not a big fucking deal after it all ends.

You don't necessarily have to be bullied to know how to cope with a negative situation. People who have a good sense of self and haven't been bullied might be more able to cope than someone who was systematically bullied and has a lower sense of self worth. There are lots of factors involved and it's not so cut and dry as "don't be so emotional, you'll get over it".

On a personal level (yes MXY, I speak personally because I can't speak on behalf of everyone) I was hospitalised earlier this year due to stress induced anxiety, generated by my high pressure work environment. My mind had tricked my body into thinking I was sick in order to get me to slow down and take the pressure off. There is nothing that could have been learnt from being bullied that could prepare me to cope with this kind of stress, it was simply something that happened to me as an adult.

I think that coping mechanisms are developed through a complex set of factors, including things like upbringing, environment, personal experience, general mental health, education and social factors. You can't make the blanket statement that facing adversity will help everyone - we all have different tipping points at which things become intolerable.

[TurdBerglar]

so what if it doesn't help everyone. everyone can't have everything. that's impossible. im not thinking about the individual. some things need to suffer for the greater good of the whole.


then there's those kids that just fucking suck. he/she is just a fucking little shit asshole as MOST kids are to some degree especially before they start going to school. I bet a lot of the women here aren't going to like that statement but kids are fucking self absorbed assholes. they need to be broken. it needs to be let know that they're not as significant as they've been led on to believe for most of their early lives. the pressures brought on by peers breaks down that self absorbedness in kids so they can work better with others/society.

sometimes those pressures don't work. but most of the time it does.

[M|X|Y]

So you can learn to fight without ever fighting? Or maybe from someone telling you about fighting?

.

I want to point out that I don't like kids getting bullied.

I just think kids are a taaad too sheltered and that a lot of strength comes from the personal experience of struggle - not from observing it, reading about it or knowing of it... but living through it.

And by being sheltered from the struggles of real life, one can not develop into a fully realized human. The less one is used to stress, anxiety and high pressure, the more likely one is to end up sick from it.

[Yetra Flam]

Doesn't it depend on the nature of the bullying?
What if a kid is bullied for being gay, or acting gay? What purpose does that serve, what lesson does that kid learn?
Or, for example, I have a friend who's biracial who went to an all-white school, and lived in an all white community. He was not only bullied by the other students, but the teachers would refer to him as "half-breed" etc. He actually grew up thinking that white people were "evil. To a child, it doesn't make any sense at all that people hate you because of the color of your skin or background. He thankfully stopped thinking that as an adult, but the point is, that served absolutely no positive purpose at all.
What if a kid is bullied for being a little weird, a little off? I don't think bullying would make them straighten up and want to start acting like everyone else, wouldn't it just make them more angry and withdrawn?

[TurdBerglar]

never said it was flawless and again you're thinking about the individual and extreme cases.

[M|X|Y]

if course there should be care from adults for extreme cases of bullying. But I'd say that most of the problems that kid face come from their homes. The bullies have parents who are generally assholes and are taught to be fickle and vapid on shitty TV and shitty movies. Kids who are "victimized" are generally too sheltered and have parents who do anything to keep their kids safe, except for the focusing on making them strong.

The world is tough and it's never going to be a safe place. The strong will always take advantage of the weak. The weaker they are, the harder they will be ridden. I see a similar to how we've been living in this world of sterility through antibiotics, antimicrobial soaps and things like that. Bacteria and viral strains just keep getting stronger - and it's been found that being exposed to a less than sanitary world makes the immune system stronger.

Very few people can live in a bubble their whole lives, sociologically or biologically. You've got to create strong defenses, emotionally and immunologically. Bullies are like germs - they'll never go away

[ms.peachy]

don't think having to face adversity early on makes you more prepared to face adversity in the future?


Look up "learned helplessness". Sometimes it is quite the opposite of what you are thinking. It's not like vaccination, you know.

[TurdBerglar]

http://www.tvids.net/watch356/Louie/season-03-episode-06-Barney-Never


start at 8:01. of course it's a caricature. but this kid totally needs to be bullied. haha

[TurdBerglar]

Look up "learned helplessness". Sometimes it is quite the opposite of what you are thinking. It's not like vaccination, you know.

again. an extreme case.

there's so many subtle things the help out so much with a person's development that we don't even notice it. teasing and bullying and especially the threat of it has a huge effect on people. it helps people to worry about fitting in and working together and being a group. if no one cared about fitting in there would be no sense of a group, helping against constructive team work. little kids are all about, ME ME ME. going to school breaks that because they're smacked in the face that it's not about THEM THEM THEM and if they keep thinking that way they're going to have to deal with the repercussions.

sometimes it fucks up. but you win some you lose some. when working with a group of people you can't make it so it's best for everyone. that's impossible. you have to make it so it's the best for the whole collective group. if a small few of the group drop then so be it as long as it's better for the whole.

[ms.peachy]

What is an extreme case? It is seen in abuse victims all the time. And bullying is a form of abuse.

[M|X|Y]

an extreme case is when someone is bullied extremely!

if i had sons and they scrapped together i'd let them unless someone was much bigger or stronger than the other or someone was gonna start bleeding.

when it comes to bullying, well.. sorta like that ^


and what do you mean by the learned helplessness in relation to what i said (if you were referring to me)? i don't understand? it seems like sheltered kids are effectively taught to be helpless

[TurdBerglar]

victims of chronic abuse is an extreme case. or any case that cause an extreme problem.

[Dorothy Wood]

I always felt like it was the bully who had a problem with being self-absorbed.

Turd, are you just talking about annoying kids getting bullied because they have bad personalities? I don't think that actually works to make them less annoying. Actually what Louie did in the end of that episode you posted was probably more effective than the kid getting beat up.

When I was teased in junior high, it made me more withdrawn. It didn't make me want to join anything or try harder to fit in. I started playing basketball because I liked playing basketball so my mom forced me to try out for the team. She literally forced me. It was adult intervention, not peer pressure.

There's a lot of anecdotal evidence in here supporting an argument I don't really understand. Maybe if you guys studied child development and worked with kids or had kids, you could speak to the topic...but just guessing about it while still being very sure is odd to me.

[TurdBerglar]

you seem to think that only a handful of kids get bullied. nearly everyone gets bullied/teased/picked on or has to deal with the threat of it. it's just the ones that don't cope with it well or the situations were it goes totally overboard are the ones that stand out and get noticed.

only the extreme cases get noticed. sounds like you were an extreme case either because of excessive bullying or because you didn't cope with it as well as the average kid.

[TurdBerglar]

what I mean by self absorbed are the kids/people that think they're always getting the shit end of the stick or feel they never get their way and they're all fucking depressed about it. what makes these people think they're the only ones that have to deal with shit like that? sensitive people are very self absorbed. they need instant gratification of their feelings and needs to feel good about themselves and the situation just as much as some cocky asshole bully does.

[Dorothy Wood]

I mentioned my 2nd grade bullying because that's the only traditional bullying I've encountered. And I coped with it fine. I never even told an adult. Probably should've I guess, just really thought the kids were jerks more than being super sad about it.

what I mean by self absorbed are the kids/people that think they're always getting the shit end of the stick or feel they never get their way and they're all fucking depressed about it. what makes these people think they're the only ones that have to deal with shit like that? sensitive people are very self absorbed. they need instant gratification of their feelings and needs to feel good about themselves and the situation just as much as some cocky asshole bully does.

I don't know. Why do you care so much?

[Dorothy Wood]

Also I was extremely shy. Shy from birth. Just like my mom and my uncle and my grandpa. There are hereditary behaviors that aren't going to change just because of bullying.

My cousin was a little sensitive weirdo when he was a kid, he cried at the drop of a hat. Well now he's 21 and studying music and he's very excellent at it and gets to travel and play in Europe. He's also just normal now. Maybe a little geeky, but he's got lots of friends.

So again I don't really see your point. What do you have a kid who's a bully or something?

[TurdBerglar]

I don't know. Why do you care so much?

because people like that are very difficult to deal with. they have these "problems" that they've manifested in their own head and it doesn't help themselves or others. they become this hindrance to THEMSELVES over nothing. and they seem to expect people to help them or cater to their over neediness and when people are a like... fuck you, we aint got time for that! they get even more depressed and fucked up.

and it's just like GET OVER YOURSELF. YOU'RE NOT BEING TREATED ANY DIFFERENT THAN ANYONE ELSE!

[TurdBerglar]

Also I was extremely shy. Shy from birth. Just like my mom and my uncle and my grandpa. There are hereditary behaviors that aren't going to change just because of bullying.

My cousin was a little sensitive weirdo when he was a kid, he cried at the drop of a hat. Well now he's 21 and studying music and he's very excellent at it and gets to travel and play in Europe. He's also just normal now. Maybe a little geeky, but he's got lots of friends.

So again I don't really see your point. What do you have a kid who's a bully or something?

look at kids before they go to school. the average kid. they're so self centered as kids are expected to be. after the first year of school they generally stop acting like toddlers and act more like kids and closer to being an actual fair minded person. I feel that's from the pressures of the other kids. they have to realize that it's not all about them. they have to compensate in order to deal with people. those pressures come from teasing, getting picked on and bullying or from the fears of them.

you keep taking into account severe or extreme cases. I'm not taking those into account as they're so few and far between. if out of 200 kids 5 kids are being severely bullied or don't cope with it well then so fucking what. a system can't cater to every single person.

[Dorothy Wood]

look at kids before they go to school. the average kid. they're so self centered as kids are expected to be. after the first year of school they generally stop acting like toddlers and act more like kids and closer to being an actual fair minded person. I feel that's from the pressures of the other kids. they have to realize that it's not all about them. they have to compensate in order to deal with people. those pressures come from teasing, getting picked on and bullying or from the fears of them.

you keep taking into account severe or extreme cases. I'm not taking those into account as they're so few and far between. if out of 200 kids 5 kids are being severely bullied or don't cope with it well then so fucking what. a system can't cater to every single person.

I disagree. Most kids are excited to meet and interact with other kids when they enter school. It's when judgement or the fear of judgement by peers that shuts people down and puts chips on shoulders.

Again I don't know where you're going with this. I studied child development, I worked with kids for many years and you're just wrong about a lot of what you're saying.

[TurdBerglar]

I think kids are becoming such massive sheltered pussies today. they're treated more and more as if they're precious. every little negative thing in their lives is trying to be eliminated because a handful can't deal with it. I don't believe that's a good thing.

[Dorothy Wood]

Well I don't think bullying solves entitlement. The adult female bully I know is entitled as shit.

[TurdBerglar]

again she's a severe case of bullying. not the norm. you need to stop thinking about the severe cases. they're so few and far between. it's just gotten so sensationalized recently that it's only known for the severe cases.

best friends that have a healthy and respectful relationship with one another bully and tease each other...

it's something that's MOSTLY so casual that it's not even noticed. we only seem to notice the severe damaging cases that could cause permanent damage.

[M|X|Y]

also, "bullying" in friend-curated adult social circles kind of doesn't count.

think more work or business environments where you don't get to choose who you deal with quite as much. kind of like school.

[Dorothy Wood]

I was in an organization that was like school that that woman belonged to also. She got asked to leave for being a bully in general. She was also an affected whiny sensitive type. I could bet she was a bully as a kid too. I think she counts. And now she just hangs out with people who are weak and like having someone dominate them.

At work I'm the boss so I crafted my staff. If you're not a team player you get fired straight up.


Anyway, so if I'm not talking about the right type of bullying, the basic theme of the thread is that kids razz eachother and that's good, and shitty adults are shitty because they didn't get razzed enough?

[M|X|Y]

oh, you said something about "sleeping with" and facebook and climbing a social ladder - it didn't sound like a work relationship. carry on(y)

[M|X|Y]

Anyway, so if I'm not talking about the right type of bullying, the basic theme of the thread is that kids razz eachother and that's good, and shitty adults are shitty because they didn't get razzed enough?

No, I think he means that lame adults are lame because they don't know how to handle shitty adults who razz them on them because they're weak from being too sheltered <never learning to properly handle adversity> or whatever.

[Dorothy Wood]

oh, you said something about "sleeping with" and facebook and climbing a social ladder - it didn't sound like a work relationship. carry on(y)

I mentioned her being a social climber because she was a bitch to me until she realized I was buddies with a person she wanted to date and a local venue booker she wanted to be best friends with. It was like night and day. But I'm no sucker. Plus she was very fucking annoying. Like imagine the worst hipster ever, that's her. :)

[Dorothy Wood]

No, I think he means that lame adults are lame because they don't know how to handle shitty adults who razz them on them because they're weak from being too sheltered <never learning to properly handle adversity> or whatever.

I need examples because I just don't see it as being true.

[TurdBerglar]

well like how you said you're no sucker. a perfect example would be one who is a sucker...

one who would fall into that bully bitch's games.

just like how you were a sucker in second grade when all those kids that you walked to school with turned on you. then eventually you learned who the assholes were and how to pick them out of a crowd and now you seem to be able to deal with that shit with no problem.

[Dorothy Wood]

well like how you said you're no sucker. a perfect example would be one who is a sucker...

one who would fall into that bully bitch's games.

just like how you were a sucker in second grade when all those kids that you walked to school with turned on you. then eventually you learned who the assholes were and how to pick them out of a crowd and now you seem to be able to deal with that shit with no problem.

Haha, *slow clap*

I already thought those kids were lame, that's why I called them neighbors, not friends. I was more confused about why they did it. I thought most kids at that school were just strange. But nice try(y)

[TurdBerglar]

slow clap?

I don't get what you're saying. I wasn't trying to insult you. im just talking here.


well if you're not a sucker. what makes someone a sucker?

to me someone that's a sucker is someone that's naive and sheltered and doesn't know who the assholes are because they've never had the deal with any.

in general kids from the city seem to know when someone is an asshole well before the kids from the suburbs just because they've had to deal with more assholes and the city parents tend to let them out of the houses more and be on their own more often.

you don't see that? street smarts?

[Dorothy Wood]

slow clap?

I don't get what you're saying. I wasn't trying to insult you. im just talking here.


well if you're not a sucker. what makes someone a sucker?

to me someone that's a sucker is someone that's naive and sheltered and doesn't know who the assholes are because they've never had the deal with any.

in general kids from the city seem to know when someone is an asshole well before the kids from the suburbs just because they've had to deal with more assholes and the city parents tend to let them out of the houses more and be on their own more often.

you don't see that? street smarts?

slow clap made sense when I wrote it, but perhaps was unclear, sorry. Uhh, I was clapping because it seemed like you made a mind blowing connection, because I was like "whoaaaa, what? ohhh, but..." Alas, it was not a complete connection.

I don't know if dealing with more assholes makes you better at recognizing them or not. If it's a city vs. suburbs thing, it might just be the way the kid was raised. Parents who choose to live in a city vs. parents who choose to live in the suburbs have different priorities and lessons to impart.

It seems like your examples are coming from personal experience from what 20 years ago? or movies? no offense, I just know that I do not hang out with kids enough anymore to make any kind of conjecture about how sheltered or unsheltered today's kids are. Definitely upper middle class kids are sheltered and catered to beyond belief, but I feel like they would be the bullies, not the bullied.

Like there's this one dad who brings his kid in my store (it's not a store for kids, but they like to come in because it's colorful) and the kid is such a little a hole.

what happened last time they came in:

Dad: c'mon son, time to go
Kid: NOOOOO, I'M BUSY! *plays with vintage toys*
Dad: son, it's time to go, we have to go meet mommy
Kid: NO! uuuaghhhahah!
Dad: son, you're not gonna get ice cream if you keep acting like this
Kid: uuuuuahghahhghg, I'm busyyyyyy!
Dad: son
Kid: *ignores father*

and on and on for 15 minutes. and you know that kid is still gonna get his ice cream...which is exactly the problem. And he's a city kid, so...?


As for me, I think I was just born to not trust, or the terrible things that happened when I was very young just jaded me. But, I think it's just internal, I revolt against jerks. I remember my dad taking me into the basement to try to indoctrinate me or brainwash me into hating my mom by playing these tapes of answering machine messages she had left for him during their divorce. He tried to force me to sit on his lap and listen and I was like "fuck this shit!" and wriggled away and ran off (can't remember where or what happened though). But I do feel like other kids with a weaker will would've just sat there.

So yeah, I dunno all kinds of dumb shit happened early on like that...let's see, like my mom aiming a gun at him while holding me, the cops coming after my dad hit me with a telephone receiver accidentally while trying to hit my mom, etc. etc. Those things made me tough, sure...but also like really fearful and anxious. And that anxiety carries with me as an adult. I'm getting over it, but slowly. I think I probably would've been better off without the terribleness, overall. But who's to say? My "grit" does charm people. I think they're just impressed that I'm not a junky.

[Yetra Flam]

My boss is an ultra adult bully. She's like the bitchy high school cheerleader on Steroids. She's in a position of power because she owns the company and really holds that over people's heads.
She's frequently threatens unethical/borderline illegal things ("If you don't get your fucking shit together I'm just not going to pay you, I don't give a fuck") Makes petty personal attacks at people, for no reason at all. One time she screamed at me in front of everyone because I didn't "like" the stuff she was posting on facebook. ("I put all this work into my posts, I want you to tell me what the fuck you have going on in your life that you can't like or share my stuff!!!") She's hired like 10 people in a 9 month period, they all left because they couldn't take it. (and it's a SMALL company)
But it's strange, because I can see that she has a lack of confidence that comes through, she desperately wants people to like her and respect her.
I always used to take it so personally, until she kinda broke down one day and spoke a little bit about how she was bullied a lot her whole life by other people. So now it seems that she has a massive chip on her shoulder and is now in a position where she can push other people around.

TL;DR - Boss was bullied as a child, as an adult is on a massive power trip who bullies other people.

[TurdBerglar]

you guys don't seem to be taking into account the average person and their average experiences whatsoever. it's all these extreme cases you're thinking about that don't represent the norm at all. the average person is a decent well mannered person that got teased and bullied in an average manner because almost everyone gets teased and bullied in an average manner. I think the childhood teasing and playground bullying is a vital part of the human experience and helps create that average well mannered person.


of course the people that represent the far ends of the spectrum are much more likely to be fucked up. but just like anything, the far ends of any spectrum are going to be more prone to chaos.

[TurdBerglar]

lets take the average kid hanging out at school or at some park or whatever. he/she sees some kid getting ripped to shreds by some asshole. and he's laughing at the situation. then he sees how miserable the kid at the receiving end looks. then he feels sad, then he feels guilty. that experience just helped him develop a sense of empathy.

that's just ONE positive dynamic that comes out of the situation.

[Dorothy Wood]

Turd I still don't understand why you'd ask the question in the first place if you didn't want discussion on anything but the middle of the road average kid.

I don't mean that like I'm angry, I just don't understand what kind of discussion you're looking for.

[TurdBerglar]

i don't understand why you only seem to be taken into consideration the kids at the far ends of the situation. the extreme bullies and the extreme pussies do not represent the average person. there's only a handful of kids in that situation. why should they be taken into consideration as the focal point? you seem to be totally ignoring the average person and how well the average person turns out. I feel part of turning out so well is apart of some childhood bullying. eliminate childhood bullying and teasing and that average person doesn't turn out as well.

[TurdBerglar]

there's this new way of thinking that if a small portion can't handle something then it must be eliminated so everyone can feel included even if it's a detriment to everyone else.

if you can't keep with up with the average you either need to change something or fuck off.

if we keep trying to cater to everyone's individual needs we're gonna run out of resources or become too limiting to fully cater to the more important average and the average will suffer.



it's like totally removing a skill from something because just a few people are horrible at that skill. let's remove the three point line from basketball because little sally is shit at making threes. now little sally feels good but now everyone else has one less skill to learn. it's just a fucking politically correct, strange way of thinking.

[Yetra Flam]

Maybe you're using the wrong word? "Bullying" implies something a more sinister and potentially psychologically damaging. It seems that you're talking about kids just kind of ragging on each other, but the kids are still friends and hang out - and how sheltering children does more harm than good, right?
So, it serves as a way to regulate behavior in a way - a kid acting in an anti-social or innapropriate way is basically "checked" by his peers.
But are kids a really good judge of what appropriate behavior is? Are they in the right place to correct their peers' behavior, or is that the responsibility of the adults/guardians?
I dont know, but I bet there's whole entire areas of study dedicated to just this topic.

[Dorothy Wood]

there's this new way of thinking that if a small portion can't handle something then it must be eliminated so everyone can feel included even if it's a detriment to everyone else.

if you can't keep with up with the average you either need to change something or fuck off.

if we keep trying to cater to everyone's individual needs we're gonna run out of resources or become too limiting to fully cater to the more important average and the average will suffer.



it's like totally removing a skill from something because just a few people are horrible at that skill. let's remove the three point line from basketball because little sally is shit at making threes. now little sally feels good but now everyone else has one less skill to learn. it's just a fucking politically correct, strange way of thinking.


Where is this happening? I've never seen this in action in real life.

[TurdBerglar]

where's what happening? the basketball analogy? that was just an absurd analogy so show how absurd I feel it is to completely discredit the benefits of how kids treat each other.

if you're talking about In general. kids aren't left to their own devices nearly as much anymore. parents don't let them roam around like they use to. they eliminate competitive situations in school. I remember when we couldn't play dodge ball anymore all of a sudden. everyone fucking loved dodge ball except for the two or three shmucks that were pussies. then the next year if you didn't want to play whatever was the activity for that week you could go and walk the track. kids are just hanging out on their phones instead of getting into "fights" and being little shits with each other. they're not getting any real face time with real people in real situations. parents keep intervening and trying to regulate everything about their kids' environments to keep them in these safe little bubbles.

I spend A LOT of time outside and I don't see young kids anywhere. where the fuck are they? they're locked up in their houses because it's "safer". when I was a kid i'd leave the house at 10 in the morning and not get home till 10 at night. I don't think that happens anymore. and that's what's making these kids little crybaby pussies that can't fucking handle anything.

[abbott]

I was just telling my 10 year old to deal with this some shit and quit being a pussy.

My 5 year old got pushed down by this 4th grader boy. He was part of a boy pushing frenzy and after not doing well with the boys, he walked over and pushed down my girl, who then feel down a few stairs hit her head and drew blood on her legs.

I am not sure what we have learned from this, but the mom of the boy did not care, did nothing. My wife and I have decided she is a bitch we will avoid.

My girl walked over to the boy and bowed up and said something like, that was not nice. I then walked over and had a few words myself with the boy. I also later told Lea that I would not get upset if she kneed the boy in the privacy. Lea told me she did not want to so I let it go. I have taught Lea to practice the knee technique on the side arm of the couch. She can raise the couch with her knee.

[Dorothy Wood]

where's what happening? the basketball analogy? that was just an absurd analogy so show how absurd I feel it is to completely discredit the benefits of how kids treat each other.

if you're talking about In general. kids aren't left to their own devices nearly as much anymore. parents don't let them roam around like they use to. they eliminate competitive situations in school. I remember when we couldn't play dodge ball anymore all of a sudden. everyone fucking loved dodge ball except for the two or three shmucks that were pussies. then the next year if you didn't want to play whatever was the activity for that week you could go and walk the track. kids are just hanging out on their phones instead of getting into "fights" and being little shits with each other. they're not getting any real face time with real people in real situations. parents keep intervening and trying to regulate everything about their kids' environments to keep them in these safe little bubbles.

I spend A LOT of time outside and I don't see young kids anywhere. where the fuck are they? they're locked up in their houses because it's "safer". when I was a kid i'd leave the house at 10 in the morning and not get home till 10 at night. I don't think that happens anymore. and that's what's making these kids little crybaby pussies that can't fucking handle anything.

Okay, I guess I just don't see how there isn't enough good natured bullying going on. I think probably there's more peer pressure to play video games and be taking pictures of your dumb outfits all the time right now.

I'm scared for the future but I also know that there are already so many dumb ass adults, it can't get that much worse...can it? for all our sakes I hope there is a renaissance.

It's true about kids not playing that much outside anymore. My mom got really sad last winter when it was nice and snowy and she didn't see any kids outside playing in it.

Anyway, of course peer behavior has an effect, but I don't think that "bullying" is really that productive. The times I felt like bullying kids I just felt bad afterward. Like the time in 7th grade when I pushed a kid's books out of his hands and kicked them down the hall when he bent down to pick them up...it was fuckin funny at the time, but it served no purpose and I regretted it. I just picked on someone who was a bigger loser than me. Maybe I'm talking about the wrong thing again though?

I should just leave this thread. :p

[bigblu89]

I think what Turd is trying to say, at least in his last example, is that bullying, in the less extreme cases, can have a way to make a person stronger.

As you all know, I'm a bit of a sports nut, so I'll use a sports analogy...

In my town leagues, the first few years (first four for T-Ball/Baseball, first two for football) they no longer "keep score". I feel this is bullshit. OK, maybe for T-Ball, where every kid hits in every inning, you can go without keeping score. But once they start recording outs and whatnot, why AREN'T we keeping score?

Life, like sports, has definite winners and losers. Feeling bad about losing (in theory) is what is supposed to motivate players to get better at their sport. And bragging/teasing about winning should be what motivates the losing players even more.

[TurdBerglar]

Anyway, of course peer behavior has an effect, but I don't think that "bullying" is really that productive. The times I felt like bullying kids I just felt bad afterward. Like the time in 7th grade when I pushed a kid's books out of his hands and kicked them down the hall when he bent down to pick them up...it was fuckin funny at the time, but it served no purpose and I regretted it. I just picked on someone who was a bigger loser than me. Maybe I'm talking about the wrong thing again though?


you don't think that experience helped you to develop a stronger sense of empathy? you regretted it and have stopped doing those types of behaviors I assume. so it had some sort of positive impact on you.

if a kid trips and falls into his food while walking through the cafeteria at school the room erupts into laughter and a few hurl humiliating remarks at him then there's even more laughter for the humiliating remarks. after the whole incident I think most kids feel guilty for laughing. now if an adult trips in the cafeteria at work the room doesn't erupt into laughter. there's a collective gasp and an immediate concern. someone comes over to help. maybe a few dicks point and laugh but they're probably his best friends. that's why they're laughing. the change in the scenario I think isn't strictly due to just age. I think it's due to the developed empathy from those childhood experiences. and the guy that tripped isn't devastated because he knows that it's not that big of a deal because shit like that has happened to him before when he was a kid and everyone shat on him for it for a month in the aftermath and he turned out just fine. so why should he worry now?

[TurdBerglar]

I think what Turd is trying to say, at least in his last example, is that bullying, in the less extreme cases, can have a way to make a person stronger.

As you all know, I'm a bit of a sports nut, so I'll use a sports analogy...

In my town leagues, the first few years (first four for T-Ball/Baseball, first two for football) they no longer "keep score". I feel this is bullshit. OK, maybe for T-Ball, where every kid hits in every inning, you can go without keeping score. But once they start recording outs and whatnot, why AREN'T we keeping score?

Life, like sports, has definite winners and losers. Feeling bad about losing (in theory) is what is supposed to motivate players to get better at their sport. And bragging/teasing about winning should be what motivates the losing players even more.

yes exactly

[bigblu89]

Two pages in, I think you finally described it in a way that actually got your point across.

Until someone points out that they had a friend who got laughed at when they tripped and spilled food, and then they hung themselves in shame.

[russhie]

Empathy and coping skills can be picked up from other life areas too.

I still don't really understand how bullying is meant to make people better. Young people today may feel more entitled as this is the way they were bought up - for the most part, we're not having to deal with the same financial and societal pressures previous generations had to, so we see the way we live our lives differently and blah blah blah. It'll be something else that rears its head for the next generation.

Anyway, that'll do for me.

[Dorothy Wood]

you don't think that experience helped you to develop a stronger sense of empathy? you regretted it and have stopped doing those types of behaviors I assume. so it had some sort of positive impact on you.

if a kid trips and falls into his food while walking through the cafeteria at school the room erupts into laughter and a few hurl humiliating remarks at him then there's even more laughter for the humiliating remarks. after the whole incident I think most kids feel guilty for laughing. now if an adult trips in the cafeteria at work the room doesn't erupt into laughter. there's a collective gasp and an immediate concern. someone comes over to help. maybe a few dicks point and laugh but they're probably his best friends. that's why they're laughing. the change in the scenario I think isn't strictly due to just age. I think it's due to the developed empathy from those childhood experiences. and the guy that tripped isn't devastated because he knows that it's not that big of a deal because shit like that has happened to him before when he was a kid and everyone shat on him for it for a month in the aftermath and he turned out just fine. so why should he worry now?

I knew it was wrong before I did it, I guess I was testing boundaries. I suppose it was a lesson in empathy...I never did it again, that's true.

Haha this is reminding me of a kid who picked on me in band thinking I wouldn't fight back (he sat behind me and would say stuff like "why are you so fat?") but I stood up and kicked him in the shins and called him ugly. He was so shocked he never taunted me again. Though we remained enemies.

We're just talking about cause and effect here though, I think that's why the topic is confusing. I don't know if I'm better off or not having been picked on sporadically. I would have rather not been picked on if there was a do over. But it's true I don't let people walk on me now at all. Impossible to say if I would be less able to stand up up for myself if I hadn't had to stand up in childhood. Maybe I wouldn't be so dang nervous if people were just nicer to me when I was young? No way to tell

[Dorothy Wood]

I think what Turd is trying to say, at least in his last example, is that bullying, in the less extreme cases, can have a way to make a person stronger.

As you all know, I'm a bit of a sports nut, so I'll use a sports analogy...

In my town leagues, the first few years (first four for T-Ball/Baseball, first two for football) they no longer "keep score". I feel this is bullshit. OK, maybe for T-Ball, where every kid hits in every inning, you can go without keeping score. But once they start recording outs and whatnot, why AREN'T we keeping score?

Life, like sports, has definite winners and losers. Feeling bad about losing (in theory) is what is supposed to motivate players to get better at their sport. And bragging/teasing about winning should be what motivates the losing players even more.

The reason they don't keep score for the young kids is because the parents are too competitive. Early sports teach hand eye coordination and social skills...there's no reason to introduce the concept of winning and losing at that age. It's nice to have kids be encouraged to participate in physical activity. "everybody wins" is not necessarily bad when a kid is like 5 or 6.

[TurdBerglar]

right...


http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/california-youth-football-league-mercy-rule-draws-ire-092413?gt1=39002


A youth football league’s new mercy rule is drawing outrage from parents in Northern California, but whereas most beefs over the implementation of mercy rules argue that they’re not tough enough, these parents contend that their league is stripping their children of opportunities in the name of a level playing field.

According to Sacramento NBC affiliate KCRA, the Northern California Federation Youth Football League instituted new rules this year that result in a $200 fine and a one-week suspension for the coach if a team wins a game by more than 35 points.

Teams must also sit their first-string players if they lead by 28 points or more at the half.



"We lose a lot of football players because their teams lose so badly," Robert Rochin, NCFYFL’s deputy commissioner, told KCRA. "If they are constantly getting beat, who wants to play anymore? We lose kids all season long because of that."







But that’s a good enough excuse according to some parents in the league — which includes kids ranging from 7 to 13 years old — who feel that the rule cheats their children out of a chance to develop and also poses a safety risk.

"Now they are afraid their coaches are going to get suspended and they are not going to have a coach to come out here and play football," said Kelly McHugh, whose 13-year-old son doesn't kick field goals in games for fear of running up the score.

Added another parent, Brent Moore: "The kids who are in the position of trying to protect their coach are backing off and are at a higher risk of being injured."

It’s really a no-win proposition for leagues that try to implement such a rule. If the mercy rule isn’t strict enough, parents will be upset that their kids are getting pummeled, and if it’s too strict, parents will moan that their kids are being cheated out of a chance to pummel.

I’m not sure I agree that there’s a long-term benefit to keeping the score in check, but in the case of the NCFYFL’s rule, there haven’t been any violations thus far this season, and parents shouldn’t expect much to change going forward.

"It’s not hurting the kids, it's teaching them compassion for the other team," Rochin told KCRA. "It’s teaching them sportsmanship."

[TurdBerglar]

compassion for the other team. the fuck is that shit?

[bigblu89]

That's a recipe for disaster.

So if a team is up 28 points, and has the ball, are they just supposed to take a knee and punt it away? What if they recover a fumble or intercept a pass? It may be a kid's lone opportunity to score a touchdown, but they can't return it for fear of suspension?

I feel that for the first few years, I'm talking strictly instructional years, keeping score isn't necessary. But once the kids are playing some semblance of the actual game, the gloves are off.

If you want to implement a "mercy rule" make it 30 points or whatever, but then call the game. To have the winning team go up 28 points, and then expect them to half-ass it or play players out of position is just begging for injuries.

[Dorothy Wood]

Mercy rules are dumb. Getting spanked by a better team doesn't have to be depressing. It teaches that not everybody can be good, but if you love playing the game you can improve. Also when you are losing bad, you can experiment with plays and almost relax and play better because the pressure is off.

I think those rules are more about the parents' self esteem than the kids'.

If certain teams are routinely getting beat badly they should spend time making a new junior league rather than monitoring scores.

[Dorothy Wood]

Also the mercy rules in that case are probably related to money. Participation=money.


I guess. I don't know. but I'm guessing.

[TurdBerglar]

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2013/10/zeeland_teachers_no_tag_no_cha.html

GRAND RAPIDS, MI - A Zeeland elementary school is clarifying its new "No Tag, No Chasing" policy, which is aimed at stopping behavior during the game that was deemed too rough for kindergartners.

On Wednesday, Oct. 2, New Groningen kindergarten teachers sent home a letter alerting parents to the policy. It described the problem of children "running in packs, pushing, knocking other children over, and making the game dangerous."

On Thursday, Oct. 3, a follow up letter was sent home with students clarifying the policy after the "no tag" rule created a bit of controversy.

"We want our children to treat each other with respect, kindness, and with safety in mind," said Ginger Smith, community relations manager for Zeeland Public Schools, on Friday.

On Thursday, the kindergarten team attempted to make sure there was no misunderstanding among any of its parents. The K- 5 school, located at 10542 Chicago Drive, serves 425 students, including 68 kindergartners.

"Our concerns are based out of care and safety for each child," they wrote. "Yesterday we took the entire kindergarten group and modeled the correct expectations for appropriate recess behavior and demonstrated examples of safe, fun play."

The teachers, who previously said several children were getting hurt daily, told parents that the modeling experience proved helpful for the students.

"All students at New Groningen are expected to treat others with respect and kindness," according to the kindergarten team letter. "When a negative behavior is recognized, the staff handles each situation with care and concern."

Neither the school nor the district have received any direct complaints from parents about the new policy, but at least one parent contacted the media about the policy.

Rough play and "Push-tag" has been discussed on parent websites such as Mumsnet.

In Zeeland, the consequences of continued rough behavior would be immediate removal from play, a note home to parents, and missing the next two recess periods, according to the first letter.

However, teachers now think the students understand how they need to play with one another.

[miss soul fire]

I've always suffered bullying, but at the same time, my friends were always the most popular kids. I like to think that bullying helped me to become the person I am today (duh). And most people I found on facebook that used to bully me are now losers.

[Yetra Flam]

Anyone following the Miami Dolphins/Incognito thing?
Basically, Incognito was accused of bullying his teammate after a recording was released of a voice mail Incognito left for a teammate. (Like racial slurs, calling his sister a slut, telling him he'll kill him.)
So Incognito came out and basically said that ALL NFL players do this to each other, to "toughen them up" and you cant let emotion affect you when you're playing football. Bullying or Hazing is explained as a necessary tradition.

[M|X|Y]

when you choose to go into the NFL, a certain knucklehead factor is to be expected I'd think

[TurdBerglar]

rookies get hazed like crazy in all sports. part of it is to break them, I think. to learn how to leave their emotions and self concern at the door for the greater good of the team.

from what I've heard about this Miami dolphins bullshit is that it seems like it's just a bunch of fucking bullshit.

[TurdBerglar]

remember when that football player called that guy a homo or something similar during a press conference and the fucking media went nuts? this is pretty much the same type of bullshit.

[Dorothy Wood]

Hazing is stupid. I'm more embarrassed for Incognito than the guy he bullied. I mean, a grown man deciding to set time aside to just call someone up and tease them is really pathetic to me. Get a life bro.

anyway, he says he didn't mean it with this pathetic quote:

"What I was going for ... I hadn't seen my buddy. I wanted to shock him. I wanted him to call me back."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000278751/article/richie-incognito-defends-voice-mail-to-jonathan-martin

:rolleyes:

[TurdBerglar]

in professional sports you're dealing with people that have EXTREME confidence. they've more than likely gone throughout their lives(all of school and college) being the number on guy on their team until the pros. someone with that much confidence and always being the best person in the room and everyone telling you that and reaffirming it, it's gonna give you a fucking huge head. there needs to be some way to fucking smack someone back down to earth.

im not talking about the incognito thing. that's just some silly pussy bullshit that should have stayed in the locker room.

[M|X|Y]

http://gawker.com/schoolkids-beat-bullies-by-showering-victim-with-incred-1471059228

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnKmKn9YbX0&feature=player_embedded

[Yeti]

Bullying is wrong no matter what! Tell everyone what I said...... unless you are some kind of sissy cry baby!!!!!!