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-   -   Vaccine Nation (http://bbs.beastieboys.com/showthread.php?t=90073)

fucktopgirl 02-01-2009 10:47 AM

Vaccine Nation
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TdSp...x=0&playnext=1

Good documentary on vaccination.
Can make you think twice about the issue!

HAL 9000 02-01-2009 12:02 PM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
The whole anti vaccination thing seems to be based on a couple of lies which are easily cleared up.

Thimerosal does not contain toxic Mercury (aka Methylmercury) it contains Ethylmercury which is not the same thing and is harmless. It seems much of this antivaccination thing is based on the fact that the substances have similar sounding names and thus can be confused by those who are taken in by their pseudoscientific crap.

Furthermore, Thimerosal IS NOT EVEN IN VACCINES (since 1997). The removal of Thimerosal from vaccines had no impact of the rate of diagnosis of Autism or other conditions attribued to vaccines.

The whole anti-vaccine thing is a terrible scam that is killing children - not just the children of those who dont get their kids vaccinated but even those parents who do because of the lost 'herd effect'.

As a father, this really makes me angry. It is so stupid because the central claims of the movement are easy to check and are clearly lies. It is not a subjective issue - vaccines do not contain toxic metals - FACT.

ms.peachy 02-01-2009 06:29 PM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Mostly white, mostly fortunate people who live in comfortable countries where they never really have to confront the consequences of infectious disease should be forced to go live for a while in mostly brown, mostly poor parts of the globe where parents have to watch children dying slowly day by day of easily preventable diseases, before they are allowed to open their mouths for half a second to talk rubbish about how 'bad' vaccines are.

Just my opinion, of course.

fucktopgirl 02-02-2009 09:04 AM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
^:rolleyes:

Ya know, i think that before shooting human population with toxics stuff, they should, in the case of the third world countries, give them access to clean water and good sanitation. That should help to eliminate diseases too. You give them a shot for, let say, cholera, but you don't change what is causing the disease to manifest.

Maybe vaccination can be helpful but in general, what help human population is civilization, sanitation and access to clean water supply.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5WTaLnDPY4

This clip is an interview with larry king and an actress talking about autism and vaccination. There seem to be a correlation between the two.
Also, the mandatory number of shots skyrocket in the last 20 years.

Why?

Also, on has to keep in mind that pharmaceutical companies make millions and millions of dollars in profit with this business...

Somebody need to make a study, objective one with vaccinated kids and unvaccinated and follow them for the first 10-15 years of their lives. Just to see.

ms.peachy 02-02-2009 09:21 AM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl (Post 1645042)
This clip is an interview with larry king and an actress talking about autism and vaccination. There seem to be a correlation between the two.

First of all, correlation is not causation.

Find one shred of peer-reviewed and reputably published scientific evidence that has passed scrutiny linking vaccines to autism. Just one will do. Actual legitimate evidence please, not some actress talking to Larry King, OK?

HAL 9000 02-02-2009 03:28 PM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Quote:

Somebody need to make a study, objective one with vaccinated kids and unvaccinated and follow them for the first 10-15 years of their lives. Just to see.
They have - 10 year study released this week shows no correlation beyond that which one would expect through randomness.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ract/123/2/475

There is no link here - it is all made up.

Please do not base parental decisions on the ravings of Jenny McCarthy. She used to think her child was an Indigo Child rather than autistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_Children) now autism and vaccines are her new thing.
If you want to look into this matter, find an article in a peer reviewed journal (like the one above) rather than posting youtube videos of interviews with Playboy bunnies. It is not that a playboy bunny dont have a viewpoint that is as valid as anyone elses, more that in this case, Miss McCarthy does not seem to be familiar with the scientific method and has no evidence to support her wild and dangerous claims.

As I said above - all the claims of the anti-vaccinationists are really easy to look into and verify - and it turns out the whole movement is about scaremongering and lies. I would invite you to examine the evidence yourself (dont use youtube)

fucktopgirl 02-03-2009 10:31 AM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HAL 9000 (Post 1645088)
They have - 10 year study released this week shows no correlation beyond that which one would expect through randomness.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ract/123/2/475

There is no link here - it is all made up.

This study don't say nothing really, the sampling might not be in all strata of the society. ONe sutdy like that mean nothing to me, where is the group of kids not exposed to toxics component?

When i talk about a study , it is to follow a sampling of kids from different social background and you follow them from the first day of life until , maybe 10-15 years old. Monitoring all the vaccins they have versu a sampling of kids who don't have vaccins. Then you collect info about their health and all that, just to see . And this would be an independant study.

It would be even better to follow them through adulthood. This is a rfeal freaking study.




Quote:


Please do not base parental decisions on the ravings of Jenny McCarthy. She used to think her child was an Indigo Child rather than autistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_Children) now autism and vaccines are her new thing.
If you want to look into this matter, find an article in a peer reviewed journal (like the one above) rather than posting youtube videos of interviews with Playboy bunnies. It is not that a playboy bunny dont have a viewpoint that is as valid as anyone elses, more that in this case, Miss McCarthy does not seem to be familiar with the scientific method and has no evidence to support her wild and dangerous claims.
Heh, no worry, i don`t base anything on a sole other human being, but what i found interesting in her saying was:

1. The fact that the mandatory vaccins that a kids suppose to have in his-her life until like 10 yaers old had triple.

2. That no doctor is able to say precisely why.

3. That the shot are too numerous for a little kiddo who just came into this world. So unatural.

So, i don't really give a shit if that woman did dance and flash her boobs in her life at one time. I think she kinda make sense a bit with her questions.



Quote:

As I said above - all the claims of the anti-vaccinationists are really easy to look into and verify - and it turns out the whole movement is about scaremongering and lies. I would invite you to examine the evidence yourself (dont use youtube)
[/quote]


Urm, i did read lots and lots of info on the matter and i did mae my decision a while ago about vaccination. I don't totally denied all the benefits but i am suspicious of the real benefits in the end.

If i go back in time, when i was younger, it was ok to have chicken pox and to have the flu. The doctor was saying that it was good for the immune system, giving it a boost.

Now, nope, you have to get a shot, and how so? For me, this change is relate to the business of vaccins. Profit at the expense of human health.

A kid is born and he have lots of shot in his first day in this world, his cells are attacked with foreign dangerous substances, it seem just wrong. But the strong ones with be OK, the weakers ones will suffer the consequences of this.

This is basically the major problem of vaccins, too much.


Another example is the vaccin for the HPV virus., my girl was supposed to have the shot this year, this is something that you can contract when you HAVE SEX. She is 9 years old. Add to this that the vaccin is good for like 5 years approx. So another shot will be needed. But that not all, they don't now how the body will react to it, they, my girl and her group of age, are guinea-pig.

I refuse.

Vaccination , the full scale operation that we witness today,is active for the last 50 years, we don't know yet what the damage will do to the human body. Maybe it did help eradicated some disease but my feeling is that it help create more degenerative diseases, autism...

The main thing is the excessive use of vaccins for anything.

taquitos 02-03-2009 02:56 PM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
i wonder if they had the idea for the movie or the title first

HAL 9000 02-03-2009 06:12 PM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl (Post 1645208)
This study don't say nothing really, the sampling might not be in all strata of the society. ONe sutdy like that mean nothing to me, where is the group of kids not exposed to toxics component?

When i talk about a study , it is to follow a sampling of kids from different social background and you follow them from the first day of life until , maybe 10-15 years old. Monitoring all the vaccins they have versu a sampling of kids who don't have vaccins. Then you collect info about their health and all that, just to see . And this would be an independant study.

It would be even better to follow them through adulthood. This is a rfeal freaking study.

I agree that one can always do more elaborate and expensive studies. The key here is that every study coming out seems to show the same thing - no link between vaccines or the ingredients of vaccines and neurological conditions like autism.

Quote:

Heh, no worry, i don`t base anything on a sole other human being, but what i found interesting in her saying was:

1. The fact that the mandatory vaccins that a kids suppose to have in his-her life until like 10 yaers old had triple.

2. That no doctor is able to say precisely why.

3. That the shot are too numerous for a little kiddo who just came into this world. So unatural.

So, i don't really give a shit if that woman did dance and flash her boobs in her life at one time. I think she kinda make sense a bit with her questions.
Glad to hear it (y)

A few points
1. I dont know if 1 is true or not - probably worth checking out from a non biased source.

2. This is obviously not true, try asking one!

3. Vaccines are unnatural. Nature's way is for disease to kill those without a natural immunity until resistent characteristics build up in the gene pool.

However, if we are going to try as a society to value each life and try to protect it with technology then so be it. It is a shame though because people are dying right now because of the anti-vaccination movement. This particular branch of pseudoscience has a genuine body count.

It is good that you have researched this, just make sure that the sources you use have rigorously followed the scientific method (hence use peer reviewed journals not youtube or google)

Documad 02-03-2009 09:42 PM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ms.peachy (Post 1645045)

Find one shred of peer-reviewed and reputably published scientific evidence that has passed scrutiny linking vaccines to autism. Just one will do. Actual legitimate evidence please, not some actress talking to Larry King, OK?

Hello? What more do you need than Jenny McCarthy's personal opinion? She's an expert. I know because I've seen her on all the talk shows.

Bob 02-03-2009 09:46 PM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Documad (Post 1645396)
Hello? What more do you need than Jenny McCarthy's personal opinion? She's an expert. I know because I've seen her on all the talk shows.

larry king once listened to her. king!

Documad 02-03-2009 10:23 PM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1645398)
larry king once listened to her. king!

Exactly! Case closed!

What the fuck is wrong with Peachy???

fucktopgirl 02-04-2009 07:05 AM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
^ WOW, you guys line jenny.

But what about the documentary. Nobody really talk about it.

HAL 9000 02-04-2009 08:31 AM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Didn’t really watch the documentary as is was made by the AIDS DENIALIST and alternative health fraud Gary Null.

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/null.html

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2008/04/now_its_officialgary_null_hiv.php

http://www.garynull.com/GNbooks.php


Edit – I would normally consider it a logical fallacy to assume because a person is wrong about A they are also wrong about ‘B’ (Poisoning the Well Fallacy or some form of ad hominem). In this case though it is relevant because the guy is saying that traditional / ‘evidence based’ medicine does not work in order to create a market for his bogus pills and supplements (as shown here - http://www.gnhealthyliving.com/Scripts/default.asp).

ms.peachy 02-04-2009 09:09 AM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HAL 9000 (Post 1645462)
made by the AIDS DENIALIST and alternative health fraud Gary Null.

Oh lordy, I didn't realise that nutjob was behind this. I probably should have guessed though.

fucktopgirl 02-04-2009 06:47 PM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Heh, the guy just like alternative medecine , sport, vitamines, yoga. He don't like pharmaceutical drugs and companies because they do exist to make profit.

So they objective is not your health per se, but to make monayyyyy!

I think it is a ok view.

About the aids things, i have to go check the video.

ms.peachy 02-04-2009 06:54 PM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
He is a fraud and a peddler of pseudoscience who misrepresents himself and his qualifications, and makes a ton of money off of vulnerable, desperate people.

fucktopgirl 02-04-2009 07:00 PM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
^ha, that what pharmaceutical companies does too!

Being healthy without the main stream health system is alright, ya know.
Exercice, eating good food, having a good way of thinking , eliminating stress is all good for you.

I don't think his view is hurting anyone, if you don't like it, just change the channel.

HAL 9000 02-05-2009 02:32 AM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl (Post 1645559)
Heh, the guy just like alternative medecine , sport, vitamines, yoga. He don't like pharmaceutical drugs and companies because they do exist to make profit.

So they objective is not your health per se, but to make monayyyyy!

I think it is a ok view.

About the aids things, i have to go check the video.

It is true that pharmaceuticals seek to make money, but that does not make them evil! They are heavily regulated which means all the treatments they (and the health professionals) offer have to undergo two tests (hence evidence based medicine).

1. They have to demonstrate that they offer a health benefit greater than that of a similarly administered placebo

2. They have to understand the side effects and benefits of any treatment.

The word 'alternative' in front of a health pill or supplement means it has FAILED TEST 1 and has not had to undergo test 2. I wonder what studies have been done on the long term impact of 'Dr' Null's "Detox package" or his "Brainy Pills". Whilst vaccines have been shown not to cause things like autism, these treatments have not been tested at all? So here is the issue - how is it that so many people including yourself, end up being more suspicious of the tested and regulated treatments than the untested and unregulated ones? Everyone in the industry is seeking to make money, which is why controls, testing, monitoring, peer review and regulation are important - vaccines are subject to such a regulatory regime.

This is not to say that alternative treatment does not have a place in medicine, indeed, any doctor will tell you the benefit of healthy eating, stress reduction and exercise (and placebo treatments may have a place too), but what guys like this do is tell you not to take treatments that have been proven to be effective and are subject to tight regulation and instead buy their products which can not been shown to have benefits and which no understanding of side effects exist. He makes money by telling you to stop well regulated effective treatments and start unregulated ineffective ones.

That does not seem harmless to me and in the case of the vaccine bullshit - people (mostly children) are getting sick and dying as a result.

ms.peachy 02-05-2009 05:28 AM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HAL 9000 (Post 1645625)
That does not seem harmless to me and in the case of the vaccine bullshit - people (mostly children) are getting sick and dying as a result.

Spot on. People not vaccinating their children puts my child's health at risk as a result, by compromising herd immunity. I have zero patience for that.

fucktopgirl 02-05-2009 08:25 AM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
People rely too much on the medical system for their health. Too much pills are swallow , and this for anything.

There is an exces of pills consumption, and this at an early age. The herds things might be true but ya know this is the only argument that people who believe in vaccin are saying, ALL the time.

Like i said before, we have to be aware that nowadays, there is too much vaccins , too soon and for about anything. So, for me, this is a proof of the will to make profit. Vaccins for cold and chicken pox, that the proof that something wrong.


Hal9000, i am suspicious of the drugs companies because all their studies are back by them, so no objectivity there. Their regulated, their hired the scientifics who will make the report. I have no confidence whatsoever in big corporation because they don't care about human health really, they care about PROFIT.

SO, maybe vaccins did some good at one time, but now, they pushed it too far in my opinion.

Oh, Misspeachy, if you have no patience for people who don't have the same view as you do, don't waste your time, go on...Get your kids all the shots and be safe and happy.

To each their own.

HAL 9000 02-05-2009 09:17 AM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl (Post 1645676)

To each their own.

Unfortunately not because your actions (assuming you are not having your kid(s) vaccinated) are increasing the chances of my kids getting sick. Also you do not own your children so much as have a duty of care – it is not fair for them to be put in danger by your beliefs, they are innocent.

I am not saying all vaccines are necessary – you may be correct in saying that there are too many on the market. In the UK there is a publicly run vaccination program covering just the essentials (I don’t think Chicken Pox is included but I could be wrong) – I guess there is something similar where you live and you and your family should certainly have those.

I don’t know much about what vaccines available but if a vaccine against chicken pox is available and effective then great – getting chicken pox is not nice and it is dangerous (you can die of it). I suspect the technology did not exist for such a vaccine when we were younger which is why you never had it.

Quote:

Like i said before, we have to be aware that nowadays, there is too much vaccins , too soon and for about anything. So, for me, this is a proof of the will to make profit. Vaccins for cold and chicken pox, that the proof that something wrong.

It is not proof that something is wrong unless you can point to an independent, double blind and peer reviewed study demonstrating that these vaccines are not effective (or at least not cost effective). If you can do this, then you are correct but if no such data exists then you are probably wrong! Rather than watching youtube vids – you should be looking for and reading these papers, find the study that backs your position or admit you are probably wrong.

Quote:


There is an exces of pills consumption, and this at an early age. The herds things might be true but ya know this is the only argument that people who believe in vaccin are saying, ALL the time.

You cant blame people for repeatedly using an argument that is true! Lets be clear – responsible people are put in danger by others who are not getting vaccinated. We are angry about it – that is why they keep going on about it.

I dont drink and drive and I would sure be angry at the drunk driver who runs down my kids.

fucktopgirl 02-05-2009 10:09 AM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by HAL 9000 (Post 1645681)
Unfortunately not because your actions (assuming you are not having your kid(s) vaccinated) are increasing the chances of my kids getting sick. Also you do not own your children so much as have a duty of care – it is not fair for them to be put in danger by your beliefs, they are innocent.

BUllshit, if your kid is vaccinated, well he is OK. He got the immunization , right? So the only kid at risk would be mine. Your argument is one of culpability and i refuse to feel culpable. I just take my own kid health in my hand and it is my right to not join this movement of fears against disease.
In our society everyone suffer from hypochondria, i choose not too.





Quote:

I don’t know much about what vaccines available but if a vaccine against chicken pox is available and effective then great – getting chicken pox is not nice and it is dangerous (you can die of it). I suspect the technology did not exist for such a vaccine when we were younger which is why you never had it.
Did you ever heard about infant sickeness, like measle, chicken pox, the slap chee syndrome.... Thoses are disease that a kid shoud get in order to boost his/her immune system NATURALLY. They are ok to get and good for you, anyway that what doctor where saying back in the days. YOu can die of anything, death is a natural process in humanity. It happen and it is ok. We cannot live forever. But rarely i'v heard people dying of chicken pox in my life. Everybody , all my friend did have it and no big deal. Those disease are there, naturally and kids who fight it will have a stronger immune system wihtout the toxic shit in the vaccins.

It is also dangerous to cross the street , ya know, but we do it everyday.


Quote:

It is not proof that something is wrong unless you can point to an independent, double blind and peer reviewed study demonstrating that these vaccines are not effective (or at least not cost effective). If you can do this, then you are correct but if no such data exists then you are probably wrong! Rather than watching youtube vids – you should be looking for and reading these papers, find the study that backs your position or admit you are probably wrong.

Well, that is the main problem , there is no independant study and if one happen to exist, the report will not get main stream attention. Pharmaceutical companies spend millions every years in lobbying and getting add for their drugs and eradicating every study that will harm their business.

So, yeah, there is not a lot of data about the negative effect of vaccines because thoses are not allowed to come to life. There must be studies , independant ones, but for a simple citizen like me and you, it is hard to acces it.

Quote:


You cant blame people for repeatedly using an argument that is true! Lets be clear – responsible people are put in danger by others who are not getting vaccinated. We are angry about it – that is why they keep going on about it.

I dont drink and drive and I would sure be angry at the drunk driver who runs down my kids.

I am angry that people have an uterly blind faith in the drugs and vaccins companies. That they believe that they,drugs companies, care about your kid health. They do not. They don't give a shit at the end of the day. Like i said, maybe vaccination start with a genuine thought but it is no longer this state of mind that motivate the making of vaccins and drugs, it is all about $$$$

Heh, don't compare me to a drunk driver, that is just the worst analogy someone could possibly choose. I don't put anyone else in danger because my kid and others are not getting this shit into their blood stream. If you kid is arm with the vaccin , if the disease come along, his/her body will recognise the disease and be OK , right?

So, i will not feel bad about my decision, not at all .

HAL 9000 02-05-2009 10:54 AM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl (Post 1645683)

BUllshit, if your kid is vaccinated, well he is OK. He got the immunization , right? So the only kid at risk would be mine.

.....

Heh, don't compare me to a drunk driver, that is just the worst analogy someone could possibly choose. I don't put anyone else in danger because my kid and others are not getting this shit into their blood stream. If you kid is arm with the vaccin , if the disease come along, his/her body will recognise the disease and be OK , right?

So, i will not feel bad about my decision, not at all .

I'm sorry but this is just not true. Vaccinations can never be 100% effective - that is why it is important that everyone has them because the protection comes from achieving the Herd Immunity Threshold in a population because at this point disease cannot spread.

Quote:

Did you ever heard about infant sickeness, like measle, chicken pox, the slap chee syndrome.... Thoses are disease that a kid shoud get in order to boost his/her immune system NATURALLY. They are ok to get and good for you, anyway that what doctor where saying back in the days. YOu can die of anything, death is a natural process in humanity. It happen and it is ok. We cannot live forever. But rarely i'v heard people dying of chicken pox in my life. Everybody , all my friend did have it and no big deal. Those disease are there, naturally and kids who fight it will have a stronger immune system wihtout the toxic shit in the vaccins.
Yes it is true that people die. But if you can reduce the risk of people dying young then why not do it? Natural does not equal good , medical advances have made huge improvements to peoples longevity and morbidity - to reject medical science on the grounds it is unnatural seems silly.

For example, medical technology has greatly reduced the number of women who die during childbirth - would you condemn this as unnatural?

Health needs regulation, and if you are not satisfied with the regulatory controls in place, investigate your local health regulator rather than just following some conspircy theory you read on the net.

Quote:

Well, that is the main problem , there is no independant study and if one happen to exist, the report will not get main stream attention. Pharmaceutical companies spend millions every years in lobbying and getting add for their drugs and eradicating every study that will harm their business.

So, yeah, there is not a lot of data about the negative effect of vaccines because thoses are not allowed to come to life. There must be studies , independant ones, but for a simple citizen like me and you, it is hard to acces it.
Just reread what your wrote - this is a paranoid delusion. The world is not like this, we are not in the Matrix or Enemy of the State - this is the real world. What evidence do you have for this, I have never struggled to access any medical studies - for example the original study that linked MMR to Autism can be read here - http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...10960/fulltext in one of the worlds premier medical journals, 'The Lancet'. This study was peer reviewed and the link between MMR and autism thoroughly debunked (not least because this is a study of just 12 children). The point is the study is not covered up.

ms.peachy 02-05-2009 11:06 AM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Forget it. There is no point to arguing science and logic with someone who is willfully apathetic and ignorant to both. Sadly such thickness means children's lives are put at risk, for no reason.

fucktopgirl 02-05-2009 11:13 AM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by HAL 9000 (Post 1645688)
I'm sorry but this is just not true. Vaccinations can never be 100% effective - that is why it is important that everyone has them because the protection comes from achieving the Herd Immunity Threshold in a population because at this point disease cannot spread.

I don't buy that, if you kid ge the shot, he is safe otherwise why you would give him/her vaccins. Herd immunity, hard time to believe in this sole argument that pro-vaccins people say.


Quote:


For example, medical technology has greatly reduced the number of women who die during childbirth - would you condemn this as unnatural?
Nope, this is ok, i mean no problem there. Vaccinations is quite different , they injected toxic substance into the blood stream, some of thoses substances are quite deadly and toxics.

Quote:

Health needs regulation, and if you are not satisfied with the regulatory controls in place, investigate your local health regulator rather than just following some conspircy theory you read on the net.

Hahaha, and then we are there, CONSPIRACY, just because i have a different view. I could say the same, be carefull of what you read on the net, you are too brainwashed by the state.

mehh

Quote:


Just reread what your wrote - this is a paranoid delusion. The world is not like this, we are not in the Matrix or Enemy of the State - this is the real world. What evidence do you have for this, I have never struggled to access any medical studies - for example the original study that linked MMR to Autism can be read here - http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...10960/fulltext in one of the worlds premier medical journals, 'The Lancet'. This study was peer reviewed and the link between MMR and autism thoroughly debunked (not least because this is a study of just 12 children). The point is the study is not covered up.
THe world is all about, nowadays, money and profit mainly, i am not delusional because i said that or that i say that pharmaceutical companies spend lots of money on lobbying. It is just a fact.
Do you know what lobbying is? If so, well, how come they spend millions on that activity?


At the end, we need more proof , more researchs not back up by drugs companies , to debate this properly, so until then, i will believe , like a millions of others, that vaccins are not all that great. I am not totally against it but, i have some reserve about the issue.

fucktopgirl 02-05-2009 11:20 AM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ms.peachy (Post 1645689)
Forget it. There is no point to arguing science and logic with someone who is willfully apathetic and ignorant to both. Sadly such thickness means children's lives are put at risk, for no reason.


Personnal attack, well, i see the degree of your conscience...So much wisdom and maturity.

Let me throw back at you your insults, if you please

I feel the same way toward you, i think you are quite stupid and constipated. And then because people who cannot be critic of what the system impose us, and that have blind faith,kids health are at risk.

Tata !!

ms.peachy 02-05-2009 11:40 AM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl (Post 1645693)
Personnal attack, well, i see the degree of your conscience...So much wisdom and maturity.

Let me throw back at you your insults, if you please

I feel the same way toward you, i think you are quite stupid and constipated. And then because people who cannot be critic of what the system impose us, and that have blind faith,kids health are at risk.

Tata !!

You can take it as a personal attack if you like. I was referring to pretty much everyone who buys into the entire anti-vaccine nonsense, so if you want to be offended on everyone's behalf, go right ahead.

I never used the word 'stupid'. I said "willfully apathetic and ignorant." There is a difference. If you're not stupid, you'll be able to see that. And if you are not willfully apathetic and ignorant, you'll maybe educate yourself a bit about how vaccines actually work, and what herd immunity is, and why it matters.

HAL 9000 02-05-2009 12:08 PM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
FTG, This will be my last post on the topic – it has gone on too long already. I am just trying to help you see the value of the scientific method as a tool for filtering data, I may well have failed at that but it was worth a shot. Just for clarification, I was not saying you are as bad as a drunk driver, my point was just that I am powerless to protect myself and my family from disease if others do not vaccinate (in case there was any misunderstanding).

I don’t know why you find the concept of Herd Immunity hard to believe, it seems a straight forward concept – as I do not know what the difficulty you have is, I will just post a link that may help you - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_modelling_in_epidemiology#The_mathema tics_of_mass_vaccination

This study shows that infection in vaccinated children increases when the level of vaccination in the population drops - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10404911

You say vaccines contain toxic and deadly substances and this is just does not seem to be true – I presume you mean Thiomersal which is neither toxic nor in vaccines (at least in the US and Europe). If you name the substance you are concerned about – I would be happy to help scan the scientific literature for more information.

You raised the question as to which one of us is brainwashed. The reason I know it is you and not me is that my information is filtered by the scientific method and represents the scientific consensus. I have demonstrated to you that anti-pharma studies are not suppressed and can be easily found in the literature which should help dissuade you from this idea that there is an enormous conspiracy at play.

The reason that it is you and not me that is buying into a conspiracy theory is that my view does not require a conspiracy. I am saying that thousands of independent scientists working in universities and labs around the world are doing good science, writing their theses and reporting their results while commenting on others as they always have done. You are saying that all these scientists are being paid, blackmailed or manipulated to change or hide their data whilst not reporting this enormous crime to the media or law enforcement. Do you see why it is your view that is the conspiracy and not mine? It is not just that you have a different view.

I am aware of lobbying and that it is a tool for companies to move regulation in their favour – I don’t like it either. It does not mean, however, that regulation is ineffective or that the scientific method cannot be trusted or that the pharmaceutical industry is poisoning people. By all means voice your concerns regarding this practice, just don’t go overboard and end up hurting yourself or your family.

Wikipedia seems to have a lot of good data on these issues – I would recommend it as a useful tool with a good overview. Here are some more links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_controversy

fucktopgirl 02-05-2009 04:39 PM

Re: Vaccine Nation
 
Anyway, enough of blablabla and blahhhh.

I have my opinion, you have yours. Fine. The end.

Oh and Misspeachy, your THICKNESS is lovely...


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