Originally Posted by saz (Post 1685004)

kimmel is spot on.

according to the blue dog logic then, and the republicans as well, public health insurance is good enough for the elected officials from the house of representatives and the senate, as well as the president and all of the armed forces. they get public health insurance, it's good enough for them, but apparently it's not good enough for the american citizen, or the american civilian doesn't deserve it. go figure.

Originally Posted by saz (Post 1685013)

how about ending american empire? that would save billions. it costs approximately 100 billion to maintain 750 to about 1000 foreign military bases. i don't think the us or the rest of the world has to worry about germany or japan acting up.

Originally Posted by Documad (Post 1685016)

Why would my private employer offer health care coverage if I can get it from the government? Will a public option become a nationalized health care program eventually?

Originally Posted by Documad (Post 1685016)

I don't see how we reform the system until we decide that some people won't be treated and some conditions won't be treated. And no politician is going to do that.

Originally Posted by Documad (Post 1685016)

Why would my private employer offer health care coverage if I can get it from the government?

Originally Posted by saz (Post 1685028)

your private employer will still offer coverage, but they will receive some competition from the government.

Originally Posted by saz

ah yes, the private health insurance companies already do that.

Originally Posted by Documad (Post 1685059)

The government isn't supposed to compete with my employer, it's supposed to compete with my employer's insurance company, right?

Originally Posted by Documad (Post 1685059)

I guess I don't understand your point. Perhaps my employer pays for my private coverage now because they want me to be able to work for them even if I need some major medical care because it's worth it to my employer if I come back to work at some point. My employer wants me to be able to have surgery without going bankrupt.

Originally Posted by Documad (Post 1685059)

But why would my employer pay $10,000 a year for my coverage if they know that they can drop my coverage, pay zero, and I'll still get on some government plan?

Originally Posted by Documad (Post 1685059)

Why won't that lead to most people being on the government plan -- a la the nationalized system that most americans don't want?

Originally Posted by Documad (Post 1685059)

Not enough to balance the system. With the way we're living now, we have fewer and fewer people paying for more and more retired and sick people. I don't want half my money to go towards health care and social security for retired people.

Originally Posted by Documad (Post 1685059)

I don't see how we can pay for health care unless we make hard choices and decide that we're cutting costs. We can't pretend to cut costs unless we cut coverage.

Originally Posted by saz (Post 1685073)

how about cutting the waste out of the defence budget? how about ending the illegal occupation in iraq, which is costing approximately nine billion a month?

Originally Posted by saz (Post 1685073)

that depends on your decision. the legislation hasn't even passed yet, but if it does, you may tell your employer that you want to stick with your current insurance provider.

Originally Posted by saz

but you're okay with your money going towards two endless, foreign wars, one in which was based on total b.s. and outright lies? you're okay with paying for bush's tax cuts for rich people? you're okay with paying for the american empire? you're okay with paying for a bloated, wasteful defence budget? you're probably not okay with those, but this is what outsiders don't get about many americans, that they don't want to pay into a system that benefits the entire society, it's this "me-me, fuck everyone else" mentality.
how about cutting the waste out of the defence budget? how about ending the illegal occupation in iraq, which is costing approximately nine billion a month?

Originally Posted by RobMoney$ (Post 1685115)

Pffthahhaahaaaa.

How can anyone raise an issue about the wars being a financial concern at this point while keeping a straight face.
The exit plan is in E.F.F.E.C.T. brother.

HOW ABOUT OBAMA'S TRILLION DOLLAR CORPORATE WELFARE PROGRAM?
You kinda forget to include that in your list of financial concerns.

Originally Posted by Documad (Post 1685123)

We're having a basic misunderstanding. Perhaps you have never had employer-provided health care?

Originally Posted by Documad (Post 1685123)

My employer doesn't let me make the decision. My employer decides whether to provide health care coverage or not. And if they decide to provide coverage they tell me what sort of plan I have. If I like Blue Cross, that's tough because it's not offered. If there is a national plan that employers don't pay for, then employers have an incentive to not offer any private insurance at all. I can say "hey, I choose to stick with my old plan" and they can say "fuck you, we're not offering insurance anymore."

Originally Posted by Documad (Post 1685123)

If this is really about nationalizing the entire US health care system, then let's have that discussion.

Originally Posted by Documad (Post 1685123)

But Obama, and the people in congress who support "health care reform" are telling me that it isn't about nationalization. I'm being told that I will have the same great plan I have today, and I don't see how they can guarantee that. I suspect that they're lying to me. Until I can trust what they're saying, I can't get behind any legislation. Again, I think it's dangerous to say "we have no idea what we're doing but we need to do something so aaaaahhhhh, we're going to pass a bill we haven't read." I know it's happened before, like with the republicans' prescription drug bill under Bush, and I opposed that bill too, for the same reason.

I want to insure poor kids, I really do. But tell me the truth about the cost and what we're going to cut to pay for it. There are many, many things that I'm willing to cut. I haven't heard anything that Obama or Pelosi want to cut yet, at least nothing significant. And the argument that we can pay for this by cutting "waste" is silly. This is where McCain was an idiot. Waste is a tiny percentage of the budget compared to entitlements. We have to cut entitlements. And defense of course.

Originally Posted by saz (Post 1685155)

there's currently only one exit plan in effect, and the troops won't be out until what, 2012 or 2013? there's also afghanistan which seems to be endless as well. and it's also bush's corporate welfare concern too, as his administration started the bailouts.



yeah, i'm not american and i don't have to rely on tentative health insurance with strings attached provided by a corporation.



okay, than that's the cold reality of the private or corporate world.



i agree. polls have consistently shown that americans want it.



there is a lot of waste. i've already mentioned the two wars and the defence budget. incidently, one piece of really good news in regards to this is that a bipartisan effort, led by obama and mccain, resulted in the scrapping of the f-22 raptor, with mccain citing president eisenhower "It's What Eisenhower Warned us About," tweeted McCain before the vote. there's also of course the fact that kickstarting the hemp industry would provide an economic goldmine, as well as legalizing, taxing and regulating marijuana would provide more billions. but of course that would mean that obama would have to truly be a "change" guy, which i doubt he is. hopefully this sort of specific change, ie sane and practical marijuana policy, will begin at the state level with california leading the way. a majority of americans seem to be okay with raising taxes (page 4) for healthcare. they seem to have had enough with the private insurance companies and want coverage without strings attached, nor having to jump through hoops. man, to pay for bush's two massive wars, his tax cuts for the rich, bush's and obama's bailouts et al, and more and more retirees etc, shouldn't taxes be raised? i can understang obama's plan to raise taxes on the much more wealthy, that seemed to really connect with the electorate, but when was the last tax hike, under bush senior? i'm fiscally conservative too, so in order to pay for services that everyone wants, as well as somehow balancing the books, you need revenue, especially tax revenue. i know this doesn't include you, but so many people want services and their humble pie, but they don't want to pay for it. well, at least in the case of healthcare, americans are willing to pay for it. but again, will i think that it will ever become a reality in the us? probably not, because there are too many jackasses like max baucus, big health insurance industry money, lobbyists et al who don't give a crap about what the electorate or taxpayers want.

Originally Posted by Documad (Post 1685124)

Rob, those wars are still costing a shitload of money every day and we rarely hear anything on the news about it anymore. Americans are oblivious to the cost. It's been going on for years. We can't get it back. We have to pay the interest on that money. It ties our hands. We have to acknowledge that. It's similar to when Bill Clinton got into office with all his big plans and learned that he couldn't pay for any of them because the budget was in worse shape than expected.

I don't blame Obama or Pelosi for the situation we're in, but I do blame them for not having a frank talk about what is possible in the near future. Americans are delusional. The easiest thing to do is to tell them that we can do everything at once. Politicians know that so they don't tell us the truth. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by RobMoney$ (Post 1685317)

Show me these polls that show Americans consistently want Nationalized Healthcare.