the ongoing role reversal of liberals and convervatives

[TurdBerglar]

politics is not really my thing but it seems like in the past few years the people that are considered liberals are pushing for more limitations and stucturedness and the people considered to be conservatives are fighting against it.

wasn't this the complete opposite for our parents generation back in the 60's, 70's, and early 80's? my parents, their siblings and their friends were considered liberal hippies in their youth. their views haven't changed a bit but now they would be considered strict conservatives.

all these new wave liberals seem to want MORE intervention from authority and stricter structure.

more rules and regulations. more laws. more authority.

isn't that the complete opposite of liberal?

[Kid Presentable]

In AU it's interesting becuase everybody has come pretty much into the middle, and so it becomes voting on the basis of personality (much like how we perceive the American system to work).

Our most recently-ousted PM was the furthest right we'd been in some time, and it didn't really wash with his party. Anyway, so what we're seeing are more conservative agendas backing things like social policy reform, which is traditionally the domain of the left.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by TurdBerglar

politics is not really my thing but it seems like in the past few years the people that are considered liberals are pushing for more limitations and stucturedness and the people considered to be conservatives are fighting against it.

wasn't this the complete opposite for our parents generation back in the 60's, 70's, and early 80's? my parents, their siblings and their friends were considered liberal hippies in their youth. their views haven't changed a bit but now they would be considered strict conservatives.

all these new wave liberals seem to want MORE intervention from authority and stricter structure.

more rules and regulations. more laws. more authority.

isn't that the complete opposite of liberal?

not really

liberals want things to change

conservatives want things to stay the same

so as things do change, the things that liberals want change

going by the dictionary, that is

[TurdBerglar]

but it seems like liberals are pushing for strict political correctness and censorship. those two things DRASTICALY inhibit change, discussion and honesty. while conservatives tend to be the group of people that are trying to fight against political correctness and censorship.

I don't consider myself to be liberal or conservative(both those groups of people are fucking assholes) so I don't have a dog in this race. but it seems like the conservatives are more open and willing for discussion and ideas(unless they're wackjob religious nuts) while the liberals just want some iron gate to shut close so they can satisfy this fulfillment of this false naïve utopia that's ultimately dishonest that they have dreamed up.

and if you went back to the 50's and the 60's it was the conservatives that where drumming up this false utopia with that American dream bullshit. trying to force people to adhere to their naïve and false views that people(the liberals of the day) ultimately started to revolt against in the late 60's and 70's.

[TurdBerglar]

Originally Posted by Kid Presentable

In AU it's interesting becuase everybody has come pretty much into the middle

the sad thing is that the middle is where shit should be but it never stays there for very long. everything should be fucking right down the middle. most people are right down the middle. and when things do reach the middle from time to time everything just works at it's best. but these fucking spazzy liberals and conservatives who are a very small but VOCAL minority are constantly trying pull EVERYTHING left or right and mucking up the natural flow of things and fucking shit up for everyone else.

[Kid Presentable]

I mean, we definitely have a very conservative populace, driven by fundamentally economic priorities. Hence our conservative parties do very well. But, the swing vote being so crucial means that each party seeks to parlay the other's stuff in the interest of broadening its constituency.

[Dorothy Wood]

Originally Posted by TurdBerglar

but it seems like liberals are pushing for strict political correctness and censorship. those two things DRASTICALY inhibit change, discussion and honesty. while conservatives tend to be the group of people that are trying to fight against political correctness and censorship.

I don't consider myself to be liberal or conservative(both those groups of people are fucking assholes) so I don't have a dog in this race. but it seems like the conservatives are more open and willing for discussion and ideas(unless they're wackjob religious nuts) while the liberals just want some iron gate to shut close so they can satisfy this fulfillment of this false naïve utopia that's ultimately dishonest that they have dreamed up.

and if you went back to the 50's and the 60's it was the conservatives that where drumming up this false utopia with that American dream bullshit. trying to force people to adhere to their naïve and false views that people(the liberals of the day) ultimately started to revolt against in the late 60's and 70's.

I don't think that liberals are pushing censorship, I think they are trying to fight back against institutionalized language that is offensive and marginalizing to certain groups of people who haven't had a voice. Conservatives also have a low tolerance for anything that makes them feel or think differently than they want.

Identity politics is out of control on both sides, in my opinion. People get so angry about the tiniest things. But honestly, I would usually side with liberal outrage than conservative outrage because conservative outrage is about being upset about the "war on christmas" (doesn't exist), or gay marriage. Liberal outrage is more about fighting for respect for marginalized people.

Here's something I got stupidly angry about recently: facebook suggested I read a blog post by some woman who is dating a guy I have mutual friends with...she lives in my neighborhood and has a fashion blog. This post that was suggested to me though, was about her being called a "fat bitch" and how horrible it was. Now...the thing is, she was called a fat bitch because she acted rudely on the sidewalk and was called out on it, and she was only called a fat bitch after she swore and yelled at the guy for calling her out. However, all her friends and commenters were like "omg how could he?! you're not fat!" and they all turned it into this girlpower feminist think piece thing...but it was a bunch of bullshit. She's just a yuppie who wants people to think she's cute, but she used the power of "liberal feminist outrage" language to drum up a false controversy that she probably actually believes. But the guy didn't call her a fat bitch because of institutionalized misogyny, he called her a fat bitch because she wasn't fat, and she looks like she tries real hard, so he knew it would piss her off.

I think people like that are just shouting all the time and drowning out the voices of people who are really fighting for equality and progress. And it gives liberalism a bad name.

so anyway, I don't even know what liberal means anymore, I don't think anyone does. Conservatives are nuts though, they really are.

[TurdBerglar]

everything you're applying to conservatives you can just as easily apply to liberals. and vice versa. the only thing that's different between the two are the specific things they're trying to force the rest of the world to do. whichever group is in control for the moment fucks shit up just as much but just in different ways.

but in the end what they have in common is that they're both a group that are trying to force the world to adhere to their specific ideology and they're nothing more than that. just a fucking insignificant group of people trying to force everyone to their lifestyle. they're almost like a religion. EVERYONE SHOULD DO WHAT WE SAY BECAUSE WE'RE THE BETTER ONES. WE KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR THE WHOLE WORLD!

one is not better than the other. it's like trying to say Christianity is better than Islam. It's both fucking structured rigid closed bullshit. if one's not trying to fuck the world up that other is.

and sheepish people seem to feel the need to side with one side or the other.

[Dorothy Wood]

I guess I don't see how liberalism is more destructive than conservatism in this point in time. Mainly because conservatives seem to just want to fight for the right to eat shitty food, worship in their own made up way, be able to be prejudiced, be able to be sexist, etc. And the thing is, they DO have the right! No one is taking it away. So I think they're dumb.

Whereas all the liberal people just want "equality", even though they are maybe not exactly right on everything, the sentiment is more positive.

I mean, I get tired of both sides. But as a woman, I'm glad people are talking more about feminism. And prejudice and racism still exists, so I'm glad people are speaking out against it.

I'm not sure anyone is forcing anybody to do anything, people are pretty lazy. Complaining on the internet doesn't really count as law or policy. Self-described conservatives in our government actually have a lot of power and have been dismantling freedom and wasting time and money for years now.

There needs to be another category...for normal practical people.

[TurdBerglar]

liberals are just as destructive with how naïve they are. they think everyone is a good person and people should all be allowed to do whatever they want. they see successful people as evil elitists while shitty, destructive, unproductive, uncooperative people as the oppressed. they tend to favor the shitty people that ruin shit for the decent people that are busting their asses trying to do the right thing. they seem to think it's impossible for people to just be plain old fashion shit that want nothing to do with being cooperative. and they tend to favor those people.

conservatism created the terrorist and liberalism let them waltz right on in. paris is dealing with that right now. these two retarded groups can very easily ruin everybody's fucking lives. paris is an extreme example but it shows what I'm trying to say.

whoever is in control(liberals or conservatives) will fuck shit up for someone just the same as the other. who they fuck over is just different people. but the everyday people in the middle get fucked over the most.

[TurdBerglar]

and modern day feminism is nothing more than bar lowering.


our society isn't trying to encourage females UPWARDS it's just bringing everything else DOWN to make it easier for them. lower the bar so the unsuccessful people can "succeed" more easily. that doesn't really accomplish anything. no one learns and advances from that.

[Dorothy Wood]

Originally Posted by TurdBerglar

liberals are just as destructive with how naïve they are. they think everyone is a good person and people should all be allowed to do whatever they want. they see successful people as evil elitists while shitty, destructive, unproductive, uncooperative people as the oppressed. they tend to favor the shitty people that ruin shit for the decent people that are busting their asses trying to do the right thing. they seem to think it's impossible for people to just be plain old fashion shit that want nothing to do with being cooperative. and they tend to favor those people.

conservatism created the terrorist and liberalism let them waltz right on in. paris is dealing with that right now. these two retarded groups can very easily ruin everybody's fucking lives. paris is an extreme example but it shows what I'm trying to say.

whoever is in control(liberals or conservatives) will fuck shit up for someone just the same as the other. who they fuck over is just different people. but the everyday people in the middle get fucked over the most.

Well, I interact with financially successful people all the time, and they're just people... who actually seem to often be more frivolous and irresponsible than most working class people, in my experience. I think in today's society, profit is favored over quality, and everyone suffers except the elite.

Originally Posted by TurdBerglar

and modern day feminism is nothing more than bar lowering.


our society isn't trying to encourage females UPWARDS it's just bringing everything else DOWN to make it easier for them. lower the bar so the unsuccessful people can "succeed" more easily. that doesn't really accomplish anything. no one learns and advances from that.

I think feminism assists in changing the definition of success. People have different strengths, physical and mental, some fall along gender lines...but the general narrative of the past few forevers has valued masculine traits over feminine traits. And I think finally people are like, "hey, we're all humans, it's cool to just be alive and respectful of each other despite our physical and behavioral differences", but not everyone is there yet.

[TurdBerglar]

I think females should we brought up to be more masculine. masculine traits have been favored for a reason. masculinity despite its flaws is much more practical and helpful than femininity. modern day femininity was created by men(and endorsed by women) over the eons to turn women into helpless trophies that need to be catered to.

modern day femininity, I feel, Isn't a real thing. the more feminine anyone is the more useless and helpless they are. how the fuck is that natural? nature is all about practicality and usefulness. femininity had to be created by the luxuries that the ongoing creation of society has brought us. if society were to crumble so would our current perception of femininity because it would have to in order for females to survive. femininity is nothing more than a stranglehold on women to act how men want them to so men can parade around their women. and women seem to like it for whatever reason.

so in a nutshell femininity is bullshit. and modern day feminism is bullshit too. modern day feminism is all about allowing females to still be as useless and feminine as they want while still getting all the benefits of masculinity.

say 4 young girls want to play hockey. which is fucking AWESOME and totally fine and something I totally approve and endorse. but there's no girl leagues anywhere. to the local boys league says that girls can tryout for their teams. the girls go to tryouts and are given a totally fair shot but they're not good enough to make the team.

people get upset so now they make a rule stating that each team will have 4 reserved slots for girls. if girls want to join the team they have 4 reserved slots for them. if girls don't want to join the team then those 4 reserved slots can go to anyone.

so now these girls that weren't good enough to join the team are now allowed to join the team pushing off four boys that WERE good enough to join the team. so now this team has lost 4 good players and replaced them with four not so good players. and the same thing has happened to other teams.

so now the teams with that have girls on them suck. they're all at the bottom of the league. this doesn't look good. doesn't look good at all. so there must be a reason for this other than these particular girls just suck. it must be because the boys are assholes and are holding them back.

so now the boys that are really good and aggressive players that are extremely hard workers are vilified. THE GIRLS CAN'T COMPETE WITH THESE BOYS BECAUSE THEY'RE JERKS! they're not jerks their just really fucking good and put a shit ton of effort in. much more effort then these girls do.

so the rules are changed to lesson the amount of aggression on the ice helping to ruin the game. but these really good players are still better because they're just better fucking skilled. so the only thing left to do is to chase these kids out of the league BECAUSE THEY'RE JERKS AND ARE MAKING THE GIRLS FEEL BAD. they're not jerks they're just really fucking good.

so now all the aggressive hard working boys are turned into jockey meathead villains and chased out the league. and the outcome is a shitty passive hockey game that doesn't teach people how to work hard. no one learns from this. this doesn't help anyone.

that's what modern day feminism is.

[TurdBerglar]

Originally Posted by Dorothy Wood

Well, I interact with financially successful people all the time, and they're just people... who actually seem to often be more frivolous and irresponsible than most working class people, in my experience. I think in today's society, profit is favored over quality, and everyone suffers except the elite.

besides the profit over quality don't you think they've earned the ability to be frivolous and irresponsible?

the more money you have, aren't you more frivolous and irresponsible? or does all your money ONLY go towards responsible things?

[Dorothy Wood]

Originally Posted by TurdBerglar

I think females should we brought up to be more masculine. masculine traits have been favored for a reason. masculinity despite its flaws is much more practical and helpful than femininity. modern day femininity was created by men(and endorsed by women) over the eons to turn women into helpless trophies that need to be catered to.

modern day femininity, I feel, Isn't a real thing. the more feminine anyone is the more useless and helpless they are. how the fuck is that natural? nature is all about practicality and usefulness. femininity had to be created by the luxuries that the ongoing creation of society has brought us. if society were to crumble so would our current perception of femininity because it would have to in order for females to survive. femininity is nothing more than a stranglehold on women to act how men want them to so men can parade around their women. and women seem to like it for whatever reason.

so in a nutshell femininity is bullshit. and modern day feminism is bullshit too. modern day feminism is all about allowing females to still be as useless and feminine as they want while still getting all the benefits of masculinity.

say 4 young girls want to play hockey. which is fucking AWESOME and totally fine and something I totally approve and endorse. but there's no girl leagues anywhere. to the local boys league says that girls can tryout for their teams. the girls go to tryouts and are given a totally fair shot but they're not good enough to make the team.

people get upset so now they make a rule stating that each team will have 4 reserved slots for girls. if girls want to join the team they have 4 reserved slots for them. if girls don't want to join the team then those 4 reserved slots can go to anyone.

so now these girls that weren't good enough to join the team are now allowed to join the team pushing off four boys that WERE good enough to join the team. so now this team has lost 4 good players and replaced them with four not so good players. and the same thing has happened to other teams.

so now the teams with that have girls on them suck. they're all at the bottom of the league. this doesn't look good. doesn't look good at all. so there must be a reason for this other than these particular girls just suck. it must be because the boys are assholes and are holding them back.

so now the boys that are really good and aggressive players that are extremely hard workers are vilified. THE GIRLS CAN'T COMPETE WITH THESE BOYS BECAUSE THEY'RE JERKS! they're not jerks their just really fucking good and put a shit ton of effort in. much more effort then these girls do.

so the rules are changed to lesson the amount of aggression on the ice helping to ruin the game. but these really good players are still better because they're just better fucking skilled. so the only thing left to do is to chase these kids out of the league BECAUSE THEY'RE JERKS AND ARE MAKING THE GIRLS FEEL BAD. they're not jerks they're just really fucking good.

so now all the aggressive hard working boys are turned into jockey meathead villains and chased out the league. and the outcome is a shitty passive hockey game that doesn't teach people how to work hard. no one learns from this. this doesn't help anyone.

that's what modern day feminism is.

I'm with you on the femininity thing, but not the feminist thing. Has that hockey thing actually happened? Sounds like an isolated issue. Feminism is more about believing women have value. People think my male employee is the boss all the time, because he's a man...no other reason. And if I say "actually, I'm the manager", they are like "whoa little lady, sorry, no offense!" And act like I'm a huge bitch. And, I've gotten lectured about being "not nice", when all I've done is explain things clearly and without emotion or smilies...it's like I'm not allowed to be professional, I have to be sweet light and fun, all because I don't have a dick. It's dumb. Feminism at least tries to help empower women to be more than cute. I haven't studied it, but that's my take.

Originally Posted by TurdBerglar

besides the profit over quality don't you think they've earned the ability to be frivolous and irresponsible?

the more money you have, aren't you more frivolous and irresponsible? or does all your money ONLY go towards responsible things?

No, they haven't earned anything, they just have privilege. Wreck less and irresponsible behavior affects everyone.

I live in a neighborhood that has gotten extremely popular and therefore full of trend seeking rich morons. Their drunken playtime on the weekends affects my quality of life, and costs tax dollars for police and fire dept...just last night there were fire trucks and cop cars outside a bar because of overcrowding. And at the show I went to last night, these middle aged rich guys went over to the stage and put their drinks on the piano, and rested their feet on the edge of the stage, interrupted the band to request they play "something sexy". It's just gross how these people act, they're not classy, they're immature and they act like everything is theirs to take.

[TurdBerglar]

modern day feminism is about GIVING value to women rather than women earning it. that may not be what the intentions are but that's what's happening. it's about lowering the bar and taking accountability away so women can reach the bar more easily rather than working for it. that may not be what the intentions are but that's what's happening. so it LOOKS like they've achieved the same thing. it's false equality at the expense of others. it's trying to patch a hole when the whole tire needs to be changed. that may not be what the intentions are but that's what's happening.

the problem is, is that little girls are still being raised and treated to be soft as they have been for eons. and now little boys are being raised to be soft and masculinity is being treated as if it's vile so the girls don't feel left behind by the go getter boys. now boys that aren't soft and are very practical are seen as jerks. this doesn't help ANYONE. little girls should be raised exactly the same way as little boys traditionally were instead of trying to force everything to be within reach of these unfortunately raised to be soft impractical girls.

if little girls were to be raised pretty much the same as little boys traditionally are then there wouldn't be any need for feminism. but feminist still want to hold onto those traditionally girly things that make them soft and impractical while still demanding the benefits at the expense of others of someone who isn't soft and impractical.

that hockey thing happen to one of my coworkers. his son is in a hockey league. best player on the team. I've met the kid. nice quiet kid. the team is tanking because the coach is forced to play these girls that are horrible. if these girls were boys they would be bench riders. but he's forced to play them because he's being told that he's being discriminating for keeping them on the bench. the good players are all fed up because they'd have a better record if these girls were just gone and there were still short 4 people. the good players, speaking the truth, are being treated as if they're villains now. the rest of the team is being held back so undeserving players can feel successful.

this isn't just a feminist thing. modern day society as a whole is doing this type of behavior for all walks of life. if someone sucks at something it must be because they're being held back not because they just plain old fashion suck. so if someone sucks at something it's not their fault it must be someone else's evil intentions holding them back. the fuck is that shit.

[TurdBerglar]

Originally Posted by Dorothy Wood

it's like I'm not allowed to be professional, I have to be sweet light and fun, all because I don't have a dick. It's dumb.

I find that I have to talk to women the exact same way. if I don't then I'm an asshole somehow. can't be direct or blunt. have to sugar coat everything.

Originally Posted by Dorothy Wood

Their drunken playtime on the weekends affects my quality of life, and costs tax dollars for police and fire dept...just last night there were fire trucks and cop cars outside a bar because of overcrowding. And at the show I went to last night, these middle aged rich guys went over to the stage and put their drinks on the piano, and rested their feet on the edge of the stage, interrupted the band to request they play "something sexy". It's just gross how these people act, they're not classy, they're immature and they act like everything is theirs to take.

poor ghetto trash act the exact same way. does that have anything to do with privilege? it's just unchecked asshole behavior on both ends.

[Dorothy Wood]

Well perhaps we'll just agree that most people are terrible, regardless of gender or socioeconomic level.

Because I have no experience with kids sports these days...and I don't think you've experienced the nuisance of well off adults who run around acting like every thing and every person is there to entertain them.

I hate mainstream society, I don't understand it. Most people's behavior disgusts me. Honestly I should probably just live in the desert alone.

[Yetra Flam]

Originally Posted by TurdBerglar

the problem is, is that little girls are still being raised and treated to be soft as they have been for eons. and now little boys are being raised to be soft and masculinity is being treated as if it's vile so the girls don't feel left behind by the go getter boys. now boys that aren't soft and are very practical are seen as jerks. this doesn't help ANYONE. little girls should be raised exactly the same way as little boys traditionally were instead of trying to force everything to be within reach of these unfortunately raised to be soft impractical girls.

if little girls were to be raised pretty much the same as little boys traditionally are then there wouldn't be any need for feminism. but feminist still want to hold onto those traditionally girly things that make them soft and impractical while still demanding the benefits at the expense of others of someone who isn't soft and impractical.

that hockey thing happen to one of my coworkers. his son is in a hockey league. best player on the team. I've met the kid. nice quiet kid. the team is tanking because the coach is forced to play these girls that are horrible. if these girls were boys they would be bench riders. but he's forced to play them because he's being told that he's being discriminating for keeping them on the bench. the good players are all fed up because they'd have a better record if these girls were just gone and there were still short 4 people. the good players, speaking the truth, are being treated as if they're villains now. the rest of the team is being held back so undeserving players can feel successful.

I don't mean to derail the topic of this thread but this actually reminds me a lot of something I saw recently.
There was a local female boxer, who is a friend of a friend. Ive been seeing a lot of publicity about her, she had television appearances (on Louie CK, there was another one I forgot) She is also demanding her fights be broadcast, just like the men's fights. Fair enough. I'm interested, as a casual fan of boxing and start looking into this, who she is, . A few things I noticed very quickly - her whole identity, advertising campaign is based on how hot and sexy she is, in particular putting down other women fighters, (how we're used to thinking that women athletes are "butch" but she's "sizzling hot.") Ok, whatever, I thought. They did the same thing with Ronda Rousey. With further research, I found out that she only started boxing a few years ago, as opposed to most other athletes who have been dedicating most of their lives. I wondered how someone who only learned a sport a few years ago could be a champion already.
I found out her team and promoters created a special weight class for her that only she was in, so she could be considered a "champion" by default. To be completely honest, Watching this girl "fight" is embarrassing. It's a joke. Arms flailing, the whole deal.
It is pretty much like the boxing version of the NFL lingerie league - but at least those women understand that they're involved in this activity for the purpose of entertainment. They aren't demanding prime time television slots and to be referred to as NFL players and to receive superbowl rings and accolades.
So thats cool if this girl wants to be an entertainer and make a living from being attractive, she has every right to do that. But at least own up to it! What she is doing is taking the spotlight and attention away from actual women boxers who have dedicated their life to their craft.
If she does get the attention she's demanding shes effectively going to make a mockery of all women boxers. And there's a whole lot of skilled women out there.
Im not sure if her "career" was planned by promoters to get more interest in a sport where people are losing interest, or what it is. Whatever it is, it kinda stinks for young girls who really are skilled and want to be boxers. It's hard ass work.
I havent really shared this with my friend, because I don't want to be rude or disrespectful or to be accused of being a hater. I just feel like I'm in cuckoo land.

[Myu-to]

WTF???

Dorothy ???

Yetra???

Bob???

Kid P???

Turd???

All in the same thread, and in November of 2015???

WOW!!!

I just jizzed in my pants. It's kind of like it's 2005

(Sorry, I did't read this thread at all, I am dyslexic, and it is too long)

[kll]

Thanks for this interesting read after all this time, kids...

[Myu-to]

Thanks for the smells

[Lex Diamonds]

Originally Posted by TurdBerglar

liberals are just as destructive with how naïve they are. they think everyone is a good person and people should all be allowed to do whatever they want.

Spoken like a true simpleton. People like you made the Nazis possible.

[TurdBerglar]

right. so I'm the asshole because I don't think people should be able to do whatever the hell they want no matter how much they fuck shit up for the rest.

[Dorothy Wood]

why do you think poor people have more power than wealthy people?
(They don't)

[TurdBerglar]

whoever said anything about poor and wealthy?

[TurdBerglar]

I'm talking about the type of people that show up to work late and reek of weed and are lazy as shit and can't stand being told what to do because they've NEVER been told what to do and they think they're being unfairly pushed around and mistreated and think they're being discriminated against somehow because EVERYONE hates working with them.

Then somebody swoops in and defends this piece of shit telling everyone else that they're being mean and discriminating. that fuck is that shit. why should decent people just have to put up with uncooperative assholes?

[Dorothy Wood]

I think that you're placing blame on the wrong people. Why is the manager or boss allowing that behavior in the first place?

I feel like most people are lazy and it's annoying, sure. but I blame capitalism for that.

[TurdBerglar]

because HR says we're being discriminating! they're the ones swooping in!

the shitty behavior is caused by not being able to criticize people anymore! if you criticize anyone these days you're a big meanie!

[Dorothy Wood]

The company probably doesn't want to get sued. But see if the people in charge had higher standards in the first place, they could have more control of the quality of the workforce. But I'm guessing they just want to pay people low wages and deal with the fuck ups, to the detriment of the rest of the employees. Happens all the time. Laziness at the top. It's like at my work, I run a tight ship with my team, but other teams aren't as functional. So my boss thought, "hey we are having trouble at the other place so I thought I'd just take your right hand woman and she can work there and fix it." I said "please don't", and she said "nah I don't wanna". And I just think that all they need to do is fire the problem people and hire people who can do the job...or train them! Deal with it, don't just pass the buck. It's the mature thing to do. Not poaching a team that already works. That's laziness.