Why have'nt they released HSCPT1 yet?

[Brother McDuff]

the original TMR and Lee Majors that came out (singles?) were pre-Zdar mixes, and they were most definitely muddy. i noticed right away, and thanked my lucky stars when they opted to bring in a pro to re-mix, as they had mixed the original themselves.

[tuc70021]

Originally Posted by Brother McDuff

the original TMR and Lee Majors that came out (singles?) were pre-Zdar mixes, and they were most definitely muddy. i noticed right away, and thanked my lucky stars when they opted to bring in a pro to re-mix, as they had mixed the original themselves.

Try as I might, I've consistently sucked at understanding sound reinforcement. Can someone explain at a 5th grade level why a song would sound "muddy" if some person mixes it, but then nice and clean if someone else remixes it?

I totally agree that the pre-Zdar mixes sound muddy, but.... why? The band plays the music, it goes onto a tape (or onto a hard drive these days), and then they can mix it. Why can't they just follow some standard operating guide for making music not sound like it's played through a gym sock? It is just they don't have the ear for it, but when they hear it done well they're like "Oh shit, that does sound a lot better."?

[brooklyndust]

I'm in the camp that always enjoyed the pre zadar mix of TMR over the "polished" version. Even it was "muddy" I liked the original better version.


I also agree with most of you on there only being one album and them just pushing renaming HSCP1 to #2 to coincide with #2's release date.

The Dylan track and others were possibly never finished with a few other half-finished songs that were possibly going to come out later.

I also agree that 30 + years of music is just fine but I would love to hear and own the pre-zadar mix with the original track order, album cover and lyrics. We know they changed up the lyrics for TMR and Here's a little Something for ya.
That would be equally as great for me as an album of new material.

[bigfatlove06]

Originally Posted by brooklyndust

I also agree that 30 + years of music is just fine but I would love to hear and own the pre-zadar mix with the original track order, album cover and lyrics. We know they changed up the lyrics for TMR and Here's a little Something for ya.
That would be equally as great for me as an album of new material.

I agree

[3stooges]

Originally Posted by tuc70021

Try as I might, I've consistently sucked at understanding sound reinforcement. Can someone explain at a 5th grade level why a song would sound "muddy" if some person mixes it, but then nice and clean if someone else remixes it?

I totally agree that the pre-Zdar mixes sound muddy, but.... why? The band plays the music, it goes onto a tape (or onto a hard drive these days), and then they can mix it. Why can't they just follow some standard operating guide for making music not sound like it's played through a gym sock? It is just they don't have the ear for it, but when they hear it done well they're like "Oh shit, that does sound a lot better."?

They are artists, not audio engineers. I think they know a lot about mixing, and they are capable of doing it themselves. But I think what happened is they mixed it, and then they were comparing it to other albums that were coming out at the time, and they felt that the mix just didn't stand up next to the mixes of these other albums. I don't know what they used for their original mixes for Hot Sauce, but they seem to always be going for a very warm, analog, 70's kind of mix sound, with the tubes and the tape and old effects units and pedals. Maybe it was just too much of that and it came out a little muddy. You need to be careful with the build up of noise/hiss/distortion as you are layering one warm, fat, funky analog track on top of the other. You can make an album sound like a Funkadelic album from 1971 if you want to. But in 2011, when you compare it to what else is coming out, it would definitely sound muddy in comparison.

There is a Sound On Sound interview with Zdar about that album, where he mentions that MCA was listening to the Cassius album (Zdar's group) and he loved how it sounded. So they brought him in to help them get the sound they wanted. Mixing is not something that is so easy to do, if you are very particular and critical about how your final mix and master should sound. It is a lot of technical work. It is a creative art form, certainly, but requires a great deal of understanding of all the gear, and carving out space for each sound with eq, and always using all this old gear they like to use. You really have to know what you are doing to keep it under control. That's why there are certain people that get a lot of work from top artists. Because there are only so many people that can really do it at that highest level.

[pesto pizza]

[dave790]

For me, there is 100% another HSC album. It was always the intention to release two different albums. I can't believe this is still being debated. They have confirmed it on numerous occasions. The only joke they played was to call the Part One - that they intended to release in 2009 - Part Two in 2011 after it had been spruced up. Again, I cannot believe people are still confused by this, although perhaps that was the intention. But seriously - THEY HAD ENOUGH SONGS FOR TWO SEPARATE ALBUMS AND INTENDED TO RELEASE TWO SEPARATE ALBUMS.

On another (but related) note, I too would still love to hear the pre-Zdar mix of Part Two (aka the originally slated Part One) in all its glory. To get a hold of that glorious cover would also be nice, although a physical release seems a ridiculously far-fetched notion. I am also under the impression that no copies were actually ever pressed. But I'd take a leak for sure if possible. Never had a problem with the original production from the tracks we heard, it seemed deliberately murky to me as opposed to incompetence. Not sure how people can just assume that Zdar improve the whole thing - the muddy sound may well have complemented the many tracks we haven't heard the original mixes of, and besides - it's all a matter of personal preference anyway.

Never liked the newer version of TMR, but not sure you can really compare it to the former in a mixing sense - it's basically a different song! I suppose the drums / most the vocals are the same. Zdar would have had to have re-mixed the original version for any true comparison though. So really, all we have to go on is B-Boy's in the Cut, Pop Your Balloon, and Here's A Little....

Anyway, I would obviously froth at the unreleased HSC material should it ever see the light of day - it was a great and creative final period for the group - but I'll gladly take the original Part One to soothe me over otherwise. I'd certainly take either of those two options over endless stoner jams from the 90s. I think they ended up on the cutting room for a reason. But most of all I'm just grateful to have such an immense back catalogue to enjoy for the rest of my life.

[tuc70021]

Originally Posted by 3stooges

They are artists, not audio engineers. I think they know a lot about mixing, and they are capable of doing it themselves. But I think what happened is they mixed it, and then they were comparing it to other albums that were coming out at the time, and they felt that the mix just didn't stand up next to the mixes of these other albums. I don't know what they used for their original mixes for Hot Sauce, but they seem to always be going for a very warm, analog, 70's kind of mix sound, with the tubes and the tape and old effects units and pedals. Maybe it was just too much of that and it came out a little muddy. You need to be careful with the build up of noise/hiss/distortion as you are layering one warm, fat, funky analog track on top of the other. You can make an album sound like a Funkadelic album from 1971 if you want to. But in 2011, when you compare it to what else is coming out, it would definitely sound muddy in comparison.

There is a Sound On Sound interview with Zdar about that album, where he mentions that MCA was listening to the Cassius album (Zdar's group) and he loved how it sounded. So they brought him in to help them get the sound they wanted. Mixing is not something that is so easy to do, if you are very particular and critical about how your final mix and master should sound. It is a lot of technical work. It is a creative art form, certainly, but requires a great deal of understanding of all the gear, and carving out space for each sound with eq, and always using all this old gear they like to use. You really have to know what you are doing to keep it under control. That's why there are certain people that get a lot of work from top artists. Because there are only so many people that can really do it at that highest level.

Thanks for the info. I guess that makes sense that they are better at making the sounds originally than manipulating them later. I forgot how instrumental Mario C was on so many of their albums (and the Dust Brothers on PB) when it came to making them sound good, and even then there were problems. I have the Pass The Mic 12" Etched UK single and even when played on a perfectly normal stereo system, the "Booty, B-Booty" sample is out of phase and disappears every other time.

[3stooges]

Originally Posted by tuc70021

Thanks for the info. I guess that makes sense that they are better at making the sounds originally than manipulating them later. I forgot how instrumental Mario C was on so many of their albums (and the Dust Brothers on PB) when it came to making them sound good, and even then there were problems. I have the Pass The Mic 12" Etched UK single and even when played on a perfectly normal stereo system, the "Booty, B-Booty" sample is out of phase and disappears every other time.

Yeah I think what it came down to is that they are good at getting a certain sound, but for that record, they wanted to "update" their sound. It is of course a matter of taste as far as what is better. It would be cool as others have mentioned to hear the original mix of the album and compare it to the released version.

I love the Mario C sound, my favorite is Check Your Head. But some people might prefer a more modern, cleaner sound. It is tricky because as an artist you are always trying to find the perfect sonic blend of old and new. You don't want it to sound entirely like an old record, you want it to sound current as well. Or maybe you do like to just go all in on the old vibes type sound. It is just one of the many creative choices one makes as an artist.

One of the things you hear people say when they are mixing and mastering a record is that they want it to "compete" with the other current releases. What they are talking about is achieving a bright modern sound and a loud master that when played in a mix, on the radio for example, will fit right in with whatever else is currently being played. It's not going to sound quiet or dark and lifeless in comparison to the other bright loud songs being played before and after it. I personally don't agree with this philosophy. I feel every artist should do what they do without thinking about what others are doing. Just because everyone else is doing something doesn't mean it's the right thing for me to do, or the right thing to do in general. But these are the kinds of things people are aware of as they come down to the last few steps of completing and mastering an album.

[brmanuk]

Can anyone please point me in the direction of the pre-Zdar "Here's A Little Something"? I've only heard the DJ Hero DJ Shadow mashup version.

[pesto pizza]

Originally Posted by Brother McDuff

the original TMR and Lee Majors that came out (singles?) were pre-Zdar mixes, and they were most definitely muddy. i noticed right away, and thanked my lucky stars when they opted to bring in a pro to re-mix, as they had mixed the original themselves.

Oddly enough l couldnt tell difference between the two versions of lee majors and l definatly prefer the video mix of two many rappers, even though the downloaded version l bought off amazon at the time was shit, l always thought it was amazons fault because it was the first and last download l ever bought, lm a CD man.