Healthcare (Obamacare) Bill Passes House

[DroppinScience]

Originally Posted by Echewta

Ha, Costa Rica has universal health care.

True, but Costa Rica doesn't have a black president...

[RobMoney$]

Originally Posted by DroppinScience

Well, here's ten immediate benefits of the bill...

http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/wha...hen-hcr-passes.

As someone who is not a US citizen, or even residing in the US, this does nothing to benefit you in particular.
I'm aware of what the bulletpoints of the bill are though. Thanks.

Originally Posted by DroppinScience

Oh yeah and Rob, paragraphs are your friend. You don't need to write one sentence per line.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything other than the elitist snob in you just having to come out, but I've been writing in that format for a while.
I do it because it's easier for the folks with old monitors whom the screen is too wide.
It helps avoid having to scroll L to R to read.

It's not because I'm too ignorant to form a paragraph, but thx for the insuation, snob.

[travesty]

Originally Posted by Adam

I say well done america, its still pretty weak from the little I've read about it but its something you'll be thanked for by millions who'll benefit from it in generations to come

But the millions who benefit from it will never thank the Hundred Million or so who will be getting fucked on their behalf. It never happens. They just want more and more and more.

And to add to Rob's list of reason why I oppose this bill;

- It does not reduce the cost of healthcare for all Americans, instead it increases the cost of healthcare for a lot of Americans
- I don't trust the financial estimates of this program and history has proven that these estimates will be grossly understated once implemented.
- I don't trust the US Federal government to run the smallest modicum of my healthcare....period. Do You?
- We do NOT have the money for these new programs. Period.
- The manner in which this legislation was drafted, bartered for and implemented was appalling. It's like a psylocibin mushroom. The hippies love it cause it makes them feel all compassionate and loving to their fellow man but they don't realize they are not thinking clearly and aren't really in control of themselves any more. They don't really mind who is in control as long as it keeps feeling good and they never have to face reality. The rest of us can see that it was all grown out of bull shit and is against the law.

For those of you outside of the US who think that tacking on another $1T entitlement program on to the backs of America's working class is a good idea let me ask you how may of your countrymen actually pay income tax in your country to support all of the Federal Government functions and programs? Here in the US it's a little more than half. Only about 53% of all Americans pay any income tax into the federal government. And those of us who do are getting mighty fucking tired of carrying the load for those who don't just to hear them piss and moan about us not "caring" enough.

[The Notorious LOL]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

Ha, you'll soon be getting the same level of healthcare as Costa Rica.

The World Health Organization's ranking
of the world's health systems.

36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America


its a step up!!!!

[RobMoney$]

Originally Posted by travesty

For those of you outside of the US who think that tacking on another $1T entitlement program on to the backs of America's working class is a good idea let me ask you how may of your countrymen actually pay income tax in your country to support all of the Federal Government functions and programs? Here in the US it's a little more than half. Only about 53% of all Americans pay any income tax into the federal government. And those of us who do are getting mighty fucking tired of carrying the load for those who don't just to hear them piss and moan about us not "caring" enough.

Brings to mind the old story of the Ant and the Grashopper...

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long,building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed.

The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Be responsible for yourself!
————————————————

MODERN VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving.

CBS, NBC, PBS, CNN, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast.

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?

Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries when they sing, Its Not Easy Being Green"

Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the news stations film the group singing, "We shall overcome" Jesse then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake.

Nancy Pelosi & John Kerry exclaim in an interview with Larry King that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.

Finally, the EEOC drafts the Economic Equity & Anti-Grasshopper Act retroactive to the beginning of the summer.

The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government.

Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of federal judges that Bill Clinton appointed from a list of single parent welfare recipients.

The ant loses the case.

The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it

The ant has disappeared in the snow.

The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident and the house,now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.

[travesty]

Originally Posted by DroppinScience

Well, here's ten immediate benefits of the bill...

http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/wha...hen-hcr-passes

Oh yeah and Rob, paragraphs are your friend. You don't need to write one sentence per line.

Which ONE of those points is going to reduce the cost of healthcare?
Answer NONE! They will all INCREASE the cost of healthcare for everyone.

[RobMoney$]

Originally Posted by b i o n i c

i listened to this, i wonder what some of you guys who have strong views think about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs

Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine

BTW, This was great.
Thanks for posting it.

[travesty]

Originally Posted by The Notorious LOL

The World Health Organization's ranking
of the world's health systems.

36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America


its a step up!!!!

PUH-LEASE.....The WHO? Really?
It is well documented that WHO rankings are skewed on many factors not the least of which is heavy weighting of a formula to determine the "fariness" of who pays for the healthcare. Take it from the leader of WHO as she explains it to you kool aid drinking Michael Moore beleivers;

In 2000, when the report was issued, WHO was run by Gro Harlem Brundtland, a former prime minister of Norway and a socialist. She doesn’t think the results of a health system alone are important. Rather, she wants to know if the system is “fair.” In introducing the WHO report she wrote that while the goal of a health system “is to improve and protect health,” it also has “other intrinsic goals [that] are concerned with fairness in the way people pay for health care.” She is clear about the ideological factors she thinks are important: “Where health and responsiveness are concerned, achieving a high average level is not good enough: the goals of a health system must also include reducing inequalities, in ways that improve the situation of the worst-off. In this report attainment in relation to these goals provides the basis for measuring the performance of health systems.”

Obviously there is some bias in this testing.

[DroppinScience]

Rob,

You're still a fan of Bill Clinton, aren't you? The things you're railing against seem quite similar to what your hero tried to get done in the '90s:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton...e_plan_of_1993

It was okay in the '90s, but today it's tyranny?

[DroppinScience]

Originally Posted by travesty

Which ONE of those points is going to reduce the cost of healthcare?
Answer NONE! They will all INCREASE the cost of healthcare for everyone.

I think the better question to ask is if the cost of health care (whether it goes up or not) actually translates into benefits for the people. I don't know about you, but people should get what they pay for. In its present state, Americans weren't getting what they're paying for.

[checkyourprez]

Originally Posted by b i o n i c

i listened to this, i wonder what some of you guys who have strong views think about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs

Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine

ironic that it was ron who got us in the biggest peace time budget deficit in history (at the time) when you think about it.

[DroppinScience]

Originally Posted by DroppinScience

Rob,

You're still a fan of Bill Clinton, aren't you? The things you're railing against seem quite similar to what your hero tried to get done in the '90s:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton...e_plan_of_1993

It was okay in the '90s, but today it's tyranny?

While we're at it, Hillary Clinton (as a candidate for the presidency) offered universal health care as one of her campaign pledges:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20819827/

As I recall, you said you supported her in '08. Again I ask what the problem is...

[Adam]

This forum should be renamed idiot tennis.

Like bob said, it never goes anywhere the loser is whoever gets bored of the rally first.

[venusvenus123]

Originally Posted by Bob

some people get excited about the idea of people other than themselves benefiting as well

actually, from what i've read, i thought that everyone would be better off, except the very high earners -- £250k+.

but i don't really want to get pulled into a debate on this. i would just like to add that over the 9months that i have been unwell i have had world class care and i am under a top consultant at a London teaching hospital.

i note that none of the naysayers have responded to Adam's Mr Jones story.

[RobMoney$]

Originally Posted by DroppinScience

I think the better question to ask is if the cost of health care (whether it goes up or not) actually translates into benefits for the people. I don't know about you, but people should get what they pay for. In its present state, Americans weren't getting what they're paying for.

There's one small difference between what Clinton and Hillary tried to do and what Obama is doing.

BILL WAS RUNNING THE COUNTRY IN THE BLACK
Obama, not soo much.


The Gov't could provide it's citizens with mansions and yachts as long as we had a legitimate avenue to pay for it.

[RobMoney$]

Originally Posted by Adam

This forum should be renamed idiot tennis.

Like bob said, it never goes anywhere the loser is whoever gets bored of the rally first.

Cool, then why don't you just head back to the other forum and go back to talking about strip clubs, whether you plan on being HOT when you get old, or what Dorothy Woods boyfriend ate for dinner last night, or whatever other inane nonsense that's discussed over there.

Your input here barely ever made much sense anyway.

[Sir SkratchaLot]

THIS IS SO UNFAIR!

ME ME ME ME ME!!!!!

I WANT AN OMPAH LOOMPA NOW!!!!!!

[travesty]

Originally Posted by DroppinScience

I think the better question to ask is if the cost of health care (whether it goes up or not) actually translates into benefits for the people. I don't know about you, but people should get what they pay for. In its present state, Americans weren't getting what they're paying for.

Fair enough. But if we are already saying that we are spending too much for the level of care we get then increasing the benefit while increasing the cost still means we aren't getting what we're paying for. We may be getting more, but we're paying way more too. It doesn't make sense.

That's like saying that paying $40k for a used Yugo is way too expensive BUT paying $50k for a used Yugo with slammin wheels and hopped up stereo system is a good deal? WTF? It's still a Yugo.

[jabumbo]

how about instead of adding a bit of tax for medicare, we just shift all of our school taxes to pay for it instead and let the schools fend for themselves.

i mean, that would mean we don't have to pay any more money to our grubbing government, and we all still can get what we want, right?

[travesty]

Originally Posted by venusvenus123

i note that none of the naysayers have responded to Adam's Mr Jones story.

I'll bite. Contrary to what reports outside of our country may have you believe here's how it works in Mr. Jones' case in the US prior to Obamacare.

Mr. Jones feels ill and he doesn't have insurance. Why he doesn't have insurance we don't know. Maybe he didn't think he needed it, maybe he would rather drive a used Benz on 22" rims than pay for it, maybe he's too lazy to apply for Medicaid or state funded insurance, maybe he's here illegally or maybe, just maybe, he is one of the only 4% in this country who truly can not get coverage. For the sake of the argument we'll assume the latter.

Mr Jones hauls his ass of to one of the thousands of free medical clinics in the US (here's a few) OR one of the thousands of already federally funded health centerswhich accept payment based on ability.OR at the very worst he shows up at the local Emergency Room that is obligated to provide care. They give him some modest health care and MR JONES feels better and goes back to work and pays his taxes feeling happy.

So what's the problem? Obviously there are is a much disinformation about the US system outside of this country as there is disinforamtion about other country's system inside the US.

Mr. Jones' case is, of course, too simplistic. Obviously the system above worked for Mr. Jones who only needed some minor treatment but the same system is unlikely to provide extensive chemotherapy for Ms. Jones when her cigarette crusted lungs finally give out. Yes there is a problem that needs to be addressed in the US but for the most part all but about 4% of Americans had access to medical coverage before Obamacare. The major problem in the US has always been cost first and foremost and access second. Obamacare is attempting to address the latter by exacerbating the former. It's an absurd approach to problem solving for a suppossedly intelligent leader.

[Echewta]

Please everyone. Let history judge this bill. Until then, sit tight.

[b i o n i c]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

BTW, This was great.
Thanks for posting it.

you're welcome, its worthy of a little discussion - at least a listen, i think. im glad a couple of you listened to it

Originally Posted by Adam

This forum should be renamed idiot tennis.

Like bob said, it never goes anywhere the loser is whoever gets bored of the rally first.

this is true comically true

[travesty]

Originally Posted by Echewta

Please everyone. Let history judge this bill. Until then, sit tight.

Wow, that's a great approach chew. When should we pass jusdgement, after the country collapses? We can stand around in our red chinese uniforms and go "man that Obamacare really wasn't such a good idea after all was it"?
Once entitlements like this are in place, they never go away.

[Echewta]

I was just quoting number 43 Travesity. A majority of this country for 8 years agreed with his views when he did things. Those who didn't, he suggested they let history judge. I'm suggesting the same for those who don't like this bill that Obama is pushing.

And if you honestly believe that this country is going to be taken over by any other country and wear their uniforms, you are in a fantasy world and obviously haven't watched Red Dawn.

[travesty]

Gotcha, makes sense now. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

Love that movie....WOLVERINES!!!!!!!!!
I like how the commander of the red forces was Cuban...always makes me giggle.

[Echewta]

Funny thing is I don't know why some of us balk at Cuba's medical system. Fidel has lived forever. I'm pretty sure he will be at my funeral.

[Sir SkratchaLot]

Originally Posted by travesty

Wow, that's a great approach chew. When should we pass jusdgement, after the country collapses? We can stand around in our red chinese uniforms and go "man that Obamacare really wasn't such a good idea after all was it"?
Once entitlements like this are in place, they never go away.

You're right! This totally fucking communist man! Totally dood. We have to stand up and fight for our freedom! We're losing EVERYTHING man! Next thing you know everyone will be forced to be anally raped by Chinese people! It's a slippery slope you know (no homo, no racist).

[DroppinScience]

Originally Posted by Echewta

Funny thing is I don't know why some of us balk at Cuba's medical system. Fidel has lived forever. I'm pretty sure he will be at my funeral.

Considering Cuba's situation, they manage to do not too badly for health care. Sure there may not always be an abundant amount of food at the supermarket and it's rationed, but they don't seem to die over health care.

[Guy Incognito]

i dont know about idiot tennis, thats a bit strong. the tennis is bit is bang on but there are some good points on here.

Whilst i see the objections about cost and benefits and worries about who will eventually control this i think it has to be tried. In UK in late 40's Britain was in a toatl state after war, skint, no jobs, lots of poverty and the NHS was formed. Its taken a long time and its still not perfect and there are things wrong at every level but i wouldnt even like to put a figure on how many lives have been saved that wouldnt have been the case if there was no nhs.

I think you have to start somewhere and like someone said wait and see what happens, its a journey into the unknown but its got good intentions.

I take it all of you opposing enjoy good standard of healthcare under the current system.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

Cool, then why don't you just head back to the other forum and go back to talking about strip clubs, whether you plan on being HOT when you get old, or what Dorothy Woods boyfriend ate for dinner last night, or whatever other inane nonsense that's discussed over there.

Your input here barely ever made much sense anyway.

Whenever i have commented on this board, you were very respectful and welcoming to this board despite not really agreeing with anything i said but at least you listened and gave sensible well thought out responses and my posts made a lot less sense than adams. i dont think the idiot tennis remark was that serious but i am sure adam can speak for himself