Why the police must be watched closely

[RobMoney$]

I think racism is as old as man itself.
When we were writing on the walls of caves and we were forming tribes in order to survive, I'm sure man looked at members of his own tribe differently than members of another tribe.

It's unfortunate, but it's a fact that everyone identifies with their own race more than another. It's human nature.

[b i o n i c]

so you do agree that racism/socio-economic discrimination may or does exist in american law enforcement?

[RobMoney$]

Yes.
It exists everywhere.

If I walked into a black-owned business and applied for a job, and I knew I was up against someone who is black for the position, I'd expect not to get the job.
It's natural for a black business owner to feel more comfortable with and trust another black person.
That goes for every race of people.

Is it fair?
Of course not.
Guess what...Life's not fair.

[Documad]

I hate stories like this because we will never know what happened, yet people cite to someone's version as if it's fact. The professor probably said some things he shouldn't have said (I'm guessing that because of my experience with professors, not because he's black -- it's my professor bias talking) and the cop probably didn't handle it well. He escalated when he should have de-escalated. The way this has been publicized -- the things that have been said from the professor's side -- make me more likely to believe that he said some dumb things at the time. It tends to happen when powerful people deal with cops from a position of no power. Lawyers tend to say really dumb things in confrontations with cops too.

I think I agree with Rob on this one -- But these are my words not his. I believe that cops tend to treat people differently based upon appearance and sometimes appearances are deceiving. I have been through all kinds of training and I try really hard not to draw conclusions from appearances and past experience but I still find myself doing it sometimes. I also think that a cop in that town who is faced with a middle aged black Harvard professor would tend to treat him better than he treats the average 18 year old white guy. I don't know anything about this particular cop though.

[DroppinScience]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

Where was Mr Gates when the Jena Six incident was happening?
The Duke Lacrosse team alleged rape?
Michael Richards even?...NOTHING!

Perhaps the next time there is another Jena Six incident, Dr. Gates will fight as diligently for poor black men as he is fighting for himself.

You haven't heard of Henry Louis Gates Jr. before this headline, have you?

[Dorothy Wood]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

I think that a distinguished Harvard University proffessor like Mr. Gates is likely to get much more respect than the average white man in most situations in society.
The idea that he's somehow the victim of the same racism that sends poor black men to prison simply doesn't fly with me, and Gates should be careful about exploiting the plight of black men across America to win his battle of egos with the Cambridge Police Department.

Stereotypical campus fuckface Harvard arrogance.

Where was Mr Gates when the Jena Six incident was happening?
The Duke Lacrosse team alleged rape?
Michael Richards even?...NOTHING!

Perhaps the next time there is another Jena Six incident, Dr. Gates will fight as diligently for poor black men as he is fighting for himself.

okay, first off, I think the man has a right to stick up for himself. secondly, he's not an activist, he's a historian.

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

Yes.
It exists everywhere.

If I walked into a black-owned business and applied for a job, and I knew I was up against someone who is black for the position, I'd expect not to get the job.
It's natural for a black business owner to feel more comfortable with and trust another black person.
That goes for every race of people.

Is it fair?
Of course not.
Guess what...Life's not fair.

I think what you've just said is pretty dangerous, and that you shouldn't say something like that unless you've actually heard of it happening or it's happened to you.

I used to work for a black business owner, who employed people of all races. where I teach, I was hired by a black woman, and I'm a teaching assistant to a black professor. and again, the school employees people of all races. the student body is mostly minorities.

I think you've got a really old-fashioned attitude about race and it's pretty sad to me.


anyway, I just watched Hardball and Chris Matthews read the police report and talked to two dudes about it (I'll link the clip when it goes up). It was pretty funny, the discussion that is...it kind of covered a lot of what's being said in this thread and the guys discussed it with level heads and kept emotion out of it and put some humor in.

Gates did act obnoxiously in my opinion. there's no disputing that. everyone made mistakes in this situation, but I can't see any reason at all why he should've been arrested.


I really wish I could read some witness accounts or something, to get the whole picture.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by Dorothy Wood

the whole picture.

those are rare

the media doesn't help

[Documad]

Yeah, it almost always comes down to the word of one person vs. the word of another person. We're more likely to have a video shot by some stranger than in the past but it's still rare and videos mislead too.

[Dorothy Wood]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

I think that a distinguished Harvard University proffessor like Mr. Gates is likely to get much more respect than the average white man in most situations in society.
The idea that he's somehow the victim of the same racism that sends poor black men to prison simply doesn't fly with me, and Gates should be careful about exploiting the plight of black men across America to win his battle of egos with the Cambridge Police Department.

whoa whoa whoa, hold the phone here...how you gon' quote a brotha and not give him credit???


a portion of an opinion piece written by Dr. Boyce Watkins:

I might be kicked out of "The Black scholars club" for saying this, but the truth is that I don't feel sorry for Henry Louis Gates. America is far more capitalist than it is racist, so a distinguished Harvard University Professor like Gates is likely to get more respect than the average White American. The idea that he is somehow the victim of the same racism that sends poor Black men to prison simply doesn't fly with me, and Gates should be careful about appearing to exploit the plight of Black men across America to win his battle of egos with the Cambridge Police Department.

from http://www.thegrio.com/2009/07/i-am-not-al-sharpton.php

read it, it's a decent article that brings up a lot of important points and kind of bridges the gap between a bunch of us in here.

why rob decided to pass off a quote as his own to bolster his more divisive opinion instead of linking the whole article is beyond me.

[funk63]

police report
“The Sgt., along with the gentleman, were now on the porch of __ Ware St. and again he was shouting, now to the onlookers (about seven). “THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO BLACK MEN IN AMERICA”! The gentleman refused to listen as to why the Cambridge police were there. While on the porch, the gentleman refused to be cooperative and continued shouting that the Sgt. is racist police officer.”

Sounds like he was being a dick.

[b i o n i c]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

I think racism is as old as man itself.
When we were writing on the walls of caves and we were forming tribes in order to survive, I'm sure man looked at members of his own tribe differently than members of another tribe.

It's unfortunate, but it's a fact that everyone identifies with their own race more than another. It's human nature.

well, yes. so is sexism.

the difference between us and early man or, say... animals... is that you / me / we have the potential ability to resist 'human' urges. some animals might have the urge to steal a weaker competitors food or mate, kill a rival over ownership of a tree or abandon their unhealthy or physically compromised offspring to survive.

our society generally looks down on adultery, theft and selfishness. your average parent would go against all survival instincts to protect a child.

what kind of world would we live in if everyone just submitted to human nature as a rule?

why should we accept racism?

and im not saying im like jesus christ or some crap like that, but i like to think im always a work in progress. i can be an asshole, just like anyone else. but at the very least, my assholeyness is unacceptable if im representing a larger institution.

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

Yes.
It exists everywhere.

If I walked into a black-owned business and applied for a job, and I knew I was up against someone who is black for the position, I'd expect not to get the job.
It's natural for a black business owner to feel more comfortable with and trust another black person.
That goes for every race of people.

Is it fair?
Of course not.
Guess what...Life's not fair.

no doubt it exists. and i couldnt agree with you more that life is not fair. believe me. but because unfairness exists, do you mean we should all just be unfair? because racist people exist, should we all just be racist? kinda like, 'if you can't beat em, join em?'

no one's perfect, of course. but we should kinda try to be as good as we can be, right?

Originally Posted by Documad

I hate stories like this because we will never know what happened, yet people cite to someone's version as if it's fact.

we do know what happened.

Originally Posted by Documad

I believe that cops tend to treat people differently based upon appearance and sometimes appearances are deceiving.

sure the world is unfair. sure there are always first impressions and things like that, but its kind of their job to be above that and use some sort of more evolved judgment which they are supposedly trained to do. would "treat<ing> people differently based upon appearance" be acceptable if we were talking about judges?

in my opinion, as the first line of the justice / law enforcement system this is unacceptable. i refuse to give anyone a pass for that when as stewards of the law they are being well paid to be fair. what may be acceptable behavior to some for a shopkeeper does not make the same behaviour acceptable for a public servant. they can submit to human nature all they want on their off hours i suppose.

[kaiser soze]

Four Score and seven years ago....oh wait, you might know that one too

All the facts are still not in so I'm still on the fence with this one. Like I said....he should be happy that the police responded in a timely manner.

[Documad]

Originally Posted by funk63

Sounds like he was being a dick.

I agree that the report makes it sound that way. Keep in mind that it was written by the cop, and that Gates and his attorney apparently deny it.

Originally Posted by b i o n i c

we do know what happened.

How? What is the absolute truth?

Originally Posted by Bionic

sure the world is unfair. sure there are always first impressions and things like that, but its kind of their job to be above that and use some sort of more evolved judgment which they are supposedly trained to do. would "treat<ing> people differently based upon appearance" be acceptable if we were talking about judges?

in my opinion, as the first line of the justice / law enforcement system this is unacceptable. i refuse to give anyone a pass for that when as stewards of the law they are being well paid to be fair. what may be acceptable behavior to some for a shopkeeper does not make the same behaviour acceptable for a public servant. they can submit to human nature all they want on their off hours i suppose.

I'd like to discuss this outside the facts of this case, because I don't know the facts of this case (even though you apparently do).

In general, cops should make assumptions and act on them. They need to constantly re-assess of course, and those assumptions shouldn't be based merely on race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., but they would be foolish to try and assess a situation without taking into account their past experiences. That would include past experiences with persons of different backgrounds.

[Dorothy Wood]

I just wanted to alert everyone to my previous reply, #69 (heh)

so that you don't miss out on reading an article with an interesting point of view. and also so you don't miss out on me catching rob plagiarizing.

[Documad]

You might be right about witnesses. If all those people were watching, maybe some of them will come forward. But I wouldn't if I were them given the media attention.

If the facts in the police report are true, then Gates could be guilty of disorderly conduct but I still don't think the cop should have arrested him. It was a waste of resources.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Originally Posted by DroppinScience

Look, I know that in general Wikipedia can be a reliable resource, but you are aware that there's a whole wealth of material outside of Wikipedia, right? My God, that's what a library is for.

Yes I prefer primary sources over Wikipedia and other types of second hand accounts / opinions. Libraries are wonderful and I hope they are not replaced by online virtual systems. But we are straying off the topic...

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Obama weighs in on the Gates incident:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32092715...and_ethnicity/

[RobMoney$]

Don'tcha just love Obama?

He prefaces his statement with, "I dont know all of the facts." and then says, "It is obvious that the Cambridge police acted stupidly."
Way to tell everyone you're uninformed about the issue and then proceed to give an uninformed opinion.

About par for the course, I'd say.

[RobMoney$]

Originally Posted by kaiser soze

All the facts are still not in so I'm still on the fence with this one. Like I said....he should be happy that the police responded in a timely manner.

Based on what is being reported - this is my understanding of what happened:

- Gates came home from a trip and was unable to get into his front door.
- Gates tried to gain access to the backdoor and was not successful.
- Gates with the assistance of his driver push open the front door
- Neighbor (Lucia Whalen) notices two men pushing their way into a house and calls the police
- Police arrive after Gates is already inside.
- Police call for Gates to step outside and identify himself
- Gates does not do this and yells, 'Is it because I am a black man in America?'
- Police enter the house
- Police ask for identification and Gates refuses initially saying 'Do you know who I am? You believe white women over black men. This is racial profiling'
- Gates finally produces a Harvard id card and police place a call with the Harvard police
- Gates continues to act out loudly (this is backed up by several eye witnesses)
- Gates is arrested by the police


I can't see how the police did anything other than "by the book".
The police recieved a report of two black men trying to force their way into a home.
When the police arrive on the scene they find one black man inside the home.
How is that racial profiling, as Gates was repoted to have been yelling?
It's not like the cops stopped a disproportionate number of black people and gave them tickets?



I'll offer this up to the critics of this story like Bionic and Dorothy,...

The police get a B&E call. What should they do when they arrive on the scene and find people inside the house?

[yeahwho]

Having had an incident happen in my life within the past 60 days eerily similar, I can say I was freaked when I knew the cop knocked on my door and was unsure if I was the perpetrator or homeowner, common sense took over and I cooperated, he told me why he was there, he said he had already walked around my place (he checked windows, doors etc.) then asked to see my ID.

Just as when I go to the bank, make a big purchase or get pulled over for driving higher than a motherfucking kite. I don't automatically assume there is a larger agenda. I think in a primal survival mode that something serious is happening and I should cooperate.

He said he waited until he was 58 years old before he got arrested.

I am white and I'd been down that road a dozen times before I was 21. Welcome to my World professor.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

Based on what is being reported - this is my understanding of what happened:

- Gates came home from a trip and was unable to get into his front door.
- Gates tried to gain access to the backdoor and was not successful.
- Gates with the assistance of his driver push open the front door
- Neighbor (Lucia Whalen) notices two men pushing their way into a house and calls the police
- Police arrive after Gates is already inside.
- Police call for Gates to step outside and identify himself
- Gates does not do this and yells, 'Is it because I am a black man in America?'
- Police enter the house
- Police ask for identification and Gates refuses initially saying 'Do you know who I am? You believe white women over black men. This is racial profiling'
- Gates finally produces a Harvard id card and police place a call with the Harvard police
- Gates continues to act out loudly (this is backed up by several eye witnesses)
- Gates is arrested by the police


I can't see how the police did anything other than "by the book".
The police recieved a report of two black men trying to force their way into a home.
When the police arrive on the scene they find one black man inside the home.
How is that racial profiling, as Gates was repoted to have been yelling?
It's not like the cops stopped a disproportionate number of black people and gave them tickets?



I'll offer this up to the critics of this story like Bionic and Dorothy,...

The police get a B&E call. What should they do when they arrive on the scene and find people inside the house?

I disagree with your conclusions (also the presentation of the 'facts' are biased clearly on purpose to bolster your conclusions by the way). I think most people would agree that once the police determined that it was Gates' home they should have backed off immediately. Unless the US is now a police state where people do not have the right to be law abiding in their own private home. There is no evidence that Gates physically threatened the police. However one would hope that a person still has the right to tell the police to get the fuck off their property without getting arrested.

[yeahwho]

Originally Posted by Dorothy Wood

also, this was not in public. unless they're saying he was arrested in the middle of the street. even if he was, the incident began on private property.


I'm not taking Gates' lawyer's word completely and I'm not taking the cop's word either. both parties made mistakes, and it's an unfortunate situation. Calling Gates and elitist and accusing him of exploiting an average joe is laughable. what is his "cause" anyway? racial equality? ohhh, nooo!!!!!!


ugh, I am so annoyed with what you just said!

I'm no angel and trouble surrounded me for years. If someone has managed to make Professor Gates age and just this once found himself in a precarious position with the law, I'll be honest with you, white, black or green with cheese I cannot relate to that lifestyle.

Nobody was physically harmed during all of this. Here is what I'm gathering from all of the information I've gleamed so far...

This is a smaller issue than the media is making it out to be. They want to flame the racism issue and many are way too happy to oblige. It was more of a mistake than anything else.

[DroppinScience]

Originally Posted by Michelle*s_Farm

Yes I prefer primary sources over Wikipedia and other types of second hand accounts / opinions. Libraries are wonderful and I hope they are not replaced by online virtual systems. But we are straying off the topic...

The physical library won't be replaced by "online virtual systems" but even as the world becomes more and more digital, the library itself has responded with a lot of digital libraries, digitization initiatives, and so on and so forth. Thus the library will always be active in both the physical and the virtual world.

It's got nothing to do with anything, but just thought I'd point that out.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Originally Posted by DroppinScience

The physical library won't be replaced by "online virtual systems" but even as the world becomes more and more digital, the library itself has responded with a lot of digital libraries, digitization initiatives, and so on and so forth. Thus the library will always be active in both the physical and the virtual world.

It's got nothing to do with anything, but just thought I'd point that out.

Cool avocados

Perhaps even more off the topic I want to suggest the following book which does tangentially deal with the politics of the digital world (sound and mostly its history). The author was interviewed the other day on BBC radio and he is a fountain of knowledge when it comes to recorded sound, its perception, history and politics.

For example:

I did not realise that the LP Nebraska was one of the first 'planned' lo-fi recordings, that Thomas Edison was a purist when it came to analog sound (e.g., the wax cylinder), that Les Paul experimented early on with layered recordings (pre two track), and finally that due to compressed dynamic range Californication sounds strange (i.e., the soft parts are as loud as the hard parts). Below is the citation:

Perfecting Sound Forever: An Aural History of Recorded Music: Greg Milner (2009)

http://www.amazon.com/Perfecting-Sou.../dp/0571211658

[Burnout18]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

Based on what is being reported - this is my understanding of what happened:


- Gates finally produces a Harvard id card and police place a call with the Harvard police

Does anybody know if a harvard ID has an address of residence on it? Because, i have never seen a school ID with a home address on it.

If the id doesn't have an address, then yea i don't blame the cops for going on checking him out.

But Why else would he show his harvard ID if it didn't have an address on it other than to show off who he is. Here's a guy who spends his days lecturing ivy league kids, who prolly was so disgusted that a blue collar cop was bustin his balls, he prolly didn't know how to react.

[Burnout18]

Sgt Crowley was the first police officer to respond to the gym when Boston Celtic Reggie Lewis collapsed and died. Crowley attempted CPR but could not revive him.

He also won't apologize for the incident in question.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/mas...ont_apologize/

[Dorothy Wood]

ugh, I was really disappointed in what obama said.

at this point I think those guys just need to sit down with a mediator and apologize to each other, and then to america.

because now Crowley's going to be like some white hero that racists can rally around. even if that wasn't his intention.

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Below is great post from the Harvard Crimson newspaper website:

I'm baffled that disorderly conduct is an acceptable charge in this circumstance -- that is, when the alleged misconduct occurred in Gates's own home in the presence of police officers (and no others). In Commonwealth v. Mulvey 57 Mass. App. Ct. 579 (March 14, 2003), according to the Massachusetts District Attorneys Association:

"The defendant was charged with disorderly conduct for yelling and pacing on private property that was set back from the road in a secluded area. There was no one around at the time except police officers. While the statute requires that the disturbance be such that it had or was likely to have an impact upon people in an area accessible to the public, the presence of police officers alone will not suffice to prove the public element.

In reaching its decision, the Court noted that the rationale behind criminalizing disorderly conduct rests on the belief that a disorderly person can provoke violence in others. Given that an inherent part of police work involves being in the presence of distraught individuals, and given that police officers are trained to maintain order, the Court concluded that police should be the least likely to be provoked. Therefore, police presence alone does not satisfy the public element."

SOURCE: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=528584

[DroppinScience]

Originally Posted by saz

yep, i wouldn't be surprised if gates was jetlagged and miserable and being a dick to the cop, sgt. james crowley, who may have overreacted and thought to himself "i don't have to take this crap" and arrested him. then, his captain after reviewing this probably said "are you serious?" and the charges were dropped.

This is likely the most plausible scenario for how the situation went down. Even if Gates was indeed in the wrong, it couldn't have been that wrong since the charges were dropped almost immediately.

[yeahwho]

Originally Posted by Dorothy Wood

ugh, AI was really disappointed in what obama said.

at this point I think those guys just need to sit down with a mediator and apologize to each other, and then to america.

because now Crowley's going to be like some white hero that racists can rally around. even if that wasn't his intention.

WTF is Obama piping in for? Christ fix this fucked economy and make the middle east safe, let Gilligan and the professor be, they'll sort it out with all their new media and blog buddies.

Go back to wars and unchecked multi billion dollar handouts Obama.