Vaccine Nation

[HAL 9000]

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

BUllshit, if your kid is vaccinated, well he is OK. He got the immunization , right? So the only kid at risk would be mine.

.....

Heh, don't compare me to a drunk driver, that is just the worst analogy someone could possibly choose. I don't put anyone else in danger because my kid and others are not getting this shit into their blood stream. If you kid is arm with the vaccin , if the disease come along, his/her body will recognise the disease and be OK , right?

So, i will not feel bad about my decision, not at all .

I'm sorry but this is just not true. Vaccinations can never be 100% effective - that is why it is important that everyone has them because the protection comes from achieving the Herd Immunity Threshold in a population because at this point disease cannot spread.

Did you ever heard about infant sickeness, like measle, chicken pox, the slap chee syndrome.... Thoses are disease that a kid shoud get in order to boost his/her immune system NATURALLY. They are ok to get and good for you, anyway that what doctor where saying back in the days. YOu can die of anything, death is a natural process in humanity. It happen and it is ok. We cannot live forever. But rarely i'v heard people dying of chicken pox in my life. Everybody , all my friend did have it and no big deal. Those disease are there, naturally and kids who fight it will have a stronger immune system wihtout the toxic shit in the vaccins.

Yes it is true that people die. But if you can reduce the risk of people dying young then why not do it? Natural does not equal good , medical advances have made huge improvements to peoples longevity and morbidity - to reject medical science on the grounds it is unnatural seems silly.

For example, medical technology has greatly reduced the number of women who die during childbirth - would you condemn this as unnatural?

Health needs regulation, and if you are not satisfied with the regulatory controls in place, investigate your local health regulator rather than just following some conspircy theory you read on the net.

Well, that is the main problem , there is no independant study and if one happen to exist, the report will not get main stream attention. Pharmaceutical companies spend millions every years in lobbying and getting add for their drugs and eradicating every study that will harm their business.

So, yeah, there is not a lot of data about the negative effect of vaccines because thoses are not allowed to come to life. There must be studies , independant ones, but for a simple citizen like me and you, it is hard to acces it.

Just reread what your wrote - this is a paranoid delusion. The world is not like this, we are not in the Matrix or Enemy of the State - this is the real world. What evidence do you have for this, I have never struggled to access any medical studies - for example the original study that linked MMR to Autism can be read here - http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...10960/fulltext in one of the worlds premier medical journals, 'The Lancet'. This study was peer reviewed and the link between MMR and autism thoroughly debunked (not least because this is a study of just 12 children). The point is the study is not covered up.

[ms.peachy]

Forget it. There is no point to arguing science and logic with someone who is willfully apathetic and ignorant to both. Sadly such thickness means children's lives are put at risk, for no reason.

[fucktopgirl]

Originally Posted by ms.peachy

Forget it. There is no point to arguing science and logic with someone who is willfully apathetic and ignorant to both. Sadly such thickness means children's lives are put at risk, for no reason.

Personnal attack, well, i see the degree of your conscience...So much wisdom and maturity.

Let me throw back at you your insults, if you please

I feel the same way toward you, i think you are quite stupid and constipated. And then because people who cannot be critic of what the system impose us, and that have blind faith,kids health are at risk.

Tata !!

[ms.peachy]

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

Personnal attack, well, i see the degree of your conscience...So much wisdom and maturity.

Let me throw back at you your insults, if you please

I feel the same way toward you, i think you are quite stupid and constipated. And then because people who cannot be critic of what the system impose us, and that have blind faith,kids health are at risk.

Tata !!

You can take it as a personal attack if you like. I was referring to pretty much everyone who buys into the entire anti-vaccine nonsense, so if you want to be offended on everyone's behalf, go right ahead.

I never used the word 'stupid'. I said "willfully apathetic and ignorant." There is a difference. If you're not stupid, you'll be able to see that. And if you are not willfully apathetic and ignorant, you'll maybe educate yourself a bit about how vaccines actually work, and what herd immunity is, and why it matters.

[HAL 9000]

FTG, This will be my last post on the topic – it has gone on too long already. I am just trying to help you see the value of the scientific method as a tool for filtering data, I may well have failed at that but it was worth a shot. Just for clarification, I was not saying you are as bad as a drunk driver, my point was just that I am powerless to protect myself and my family from disease if others do not vaccinate (in case there was any misunderstanding).

I don’t know why you find the concept of Herd Immunity hard to believe, it seems a straight forward concept – as I do not know what the difficulty you have is, I will just post a link that may help you - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_modelling_in_epidemiology#The_mathema tics_of_mass_vaccination

This study shows that infection in vaccinated children increases when the level of vaccination in the population drops - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10404911

You say vaccines contain toxic and deadly substances and this is just does not seem to be true – I presume you mean Thiomersal which is neither toxic nor in vaccines (at least in the US and Europe). If you name the substance you are concerned about – I would be happy to help scan the scientific literature for more information.

You raised the question as to which one of us is brainwashed. The reason I know it is you and not me is that my information is filtered by the scientific method and represents the scientific consensus. I have demonstrated to you that anti-pharma studies are not suppressed and can be easily found in the literature which should help dissuade you from this idea that there is an enormous conspiracy at play.

The reason that it is you and not me that is buying into a conspiracy theory is that my view does not require a conspiracy. I am saying that thousands of independent scientists working in universities and labs around the world are doing good science, writing their theses and reporting their results while commenting on others as they always have done. You are saying that all these scientists are being paid, blackmailed or manipulated to change or hide their data whilst not reporting this enormous crime to the media or law enforcement. Do you see why it is your view that is the conspiracy and not mine? It is not just that you have a different view.

I am aware of lobbying and that it is a tool for companies to move regulation in their favour – I don’t like it either. It does not mean, however, that regulation is ineffective or that the scientific method cannot be trusted or that the pharmaceutical industry is poisoning people. By all means voice your concerns regarding this practice, just don’t go overboard and end up hurting yourself or your family.

Wikipedia seems to have a lot of good data on these issues – I would recommend it as a useful tool with a good overview. Here are some more links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_controversy

[fucktopgirl]

Anyway, enough of blablabla and blahhhh.

I have my opinion, you have yours. Fine. The end.

Oh and Misspeachy, your THICKNESS is lovely...

[fucktopgirl]

Check it out, you want science, you have , oh but it is on youtube, must be a biased source of info,right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5WNL...eature=related

[fucktopgirl]

^ help me??? Please, help yourself...

You guys are stuck on doctor wakefield. This is just one case of bollocks. .

HAl , i appreciate your devotion but, i prefer my source of info . It is not about a conspiracy, it is about some facts that are not always in the headlines news because it could harm the business of pharmaceutical companies. Some doctors are sell out some are not. A fact that some drugs and vaccins are not all that great in the end. You think medecine arrive at her apogee? No more mistakes can be made? Right...

The two last link i posted are quite good with real information. But that not enough for you. Because of the title of the website. OK then, no need to discuss here anymore if you are not able to debate information i put here.

http://www.therealessentials.com/vaccination-princ.html

INstead you are somewhat telling me that i am not critic enough and wise enough to see true info from wrong and you say i take this personally, not at all. I don't give a shit really what you think of me and my ideas.

To each their own. In my view , YOU are the one who is a bit sidetrack by just believing main stream media...

[HAL 9000]

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

You guys are stuck on doctor wakefield. This is just one case of bollocks.

True – but it is the case on which the whole anti-vac campaign is based. There is no other study that I am aware of supporting an autism/vaccine link.

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

Because of the title of the website. OK then, no need to discuss here anymore if you are not able to debate information i put here.

How can you seriously write that? How can say I did not address the info in your last two links – I did but I will repost it below for clarity!!!!!!!

That is not to say that there is not interesting material in these articles. The first accurately reports that Japan banned the MMR in 1993 because the strain of Mumps used was too virulent.

The UK also banned this MMR but instead replaced it with a less virulent version and did not have the problems experienced in Japan – you will note that in all cases the country responded by ensuring the populations safety, shows the controls work. No cover-up, no denial, no big pharma corruption - just fixing the problem as soon as its identified.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about this is this study http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/118735419/HTMLSTART

Which shows that the banning of MMR had no impact on autism rates. Again be clear – MMR does not cause Autism.

The second article quotes the underlying study at the bottom – here is the link

http://nejm.highwire.org/cgi/reprint/358/15/1580.pdf. It would be better if you could have posted this and or read it first as it would have made your post look more convincing and would have helped you understand the issue.

The basic premise is fair though – a strain of mumps exists against which the vaccine is not effective unless a further booster is given. Based on this info, what is the best response?

a)Remove the vaccine and expose all members of the population to all possible strains of mumps (as well as other diseases).
b)Administer a booster to the population
c)Research the new strain, develop your vaccine and introduce it to the population.

I would suggest that b and c are the better alternatives. This is also the recommendation of your links paper which states


Quote:
“A more effective mumps vaccine or changes in vaccine policy <additional boosters> may be needed to avert future outbreaks and achieve the elimination of mumps.”

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

INstead you are somewhat telling me that i am not critic enough and wise enough to see true info from wrong and you say i take this personally, not at all. I don't give a shit really what you think of me and my ideas.

It is not that you are not wise enough, it is that you do not understand the difference between the Scientific Method and Pseudoscience. You are not alone, this is probably true of most people.

http://www.therealessentials.com/vaccination-princ.html

Look – you just posted a link to a site that is selling smelly oil for medicinal purpose!!!! Are you seriously going to back Aromatherapy over evidence-based medicine!! Remember when I said this.

It is true that pharmaceuticals seek to make money, but that does not make them evil! They are heavily regulated which means all the treatments they (and the health professionals) offer have to undergo two tests (hence evidence based medicine).

1. They have to demonstrate that they offer a health benefit greater than that of a similarly administered placebo

2. They have to understand the side effects and benefits of any treatment.

The word 'alternative' in front of a health pill or supplement means it has FAILED TEST 1 and has not had to undergo test 2.

I wonder what tests have been done to show that 'Young Living essential Oils' are effective and cause no harm?

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

To each their own. In my view , YOU are the one who is a bit sidetrack by just believing main stream media

We are going in circles here – all through this thread I have tried to keep away from the media, I have posted links to the RAW Data – the pure facts, no opinion, no interpretation just real data. How can you possibly accuse me of this? I have shown that vaccines do not cause autism, that medical controls / regulation are effective and that it is the pseudoscientific community who is profiting off of the vulnerability of individuals by getting them to switch from clearly ineffective treatments from clearly effective ones. I have spelled it out for you as simply as I know how – I can do no more but hope some of this has stuck.

[Documad]

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

The two last link i posted are quite good with real information. But that not enough for you. Because of the title of the website. OK then, no need to discuss here anymore if you are not able to debate information i put here.

http://www.therealessentials.com/vaccination-princ.html

I'm still trying to figure out why you believe your websites. Anyone can start a website and post a personal opinion. That doesn't mean it's true. You believe anything that says what you want to hear and ignore the things you disagree with.

By the way, I'm watching PBS's documentary about polio again. It still scares me.

[fucktopgirl]

[quote]

Originally Posted by HAL 9000

I'm sorry but this is just not true. Vaccinations can never be 100% effective - that is why it is important that everyone has them because the protection comes from achieving the Herd Immunity Threshold in a population because at this point disease cannot spread.

I don't buy that, if you kid ge the shot, he is safe otherwise why you would give him/her vaccins. Herd immunity, hard time to believe in this sole argument that pro-vaccins people say.

For example, medical technology has greatly reduced the number of women who die during childbirth - would you condemn this as unnatural?

Nope, this is ok, i mean no problem there. Vaccinations is quite different , they injected toxic substance into the blood stream, some of thoses substances are quite deadly and toxics.

Health needs regulation, and if you are not satisfied with the regulatory controls in place, investigate your local health regulator rather than just following some conspircy theory you read on the net.

Hahaha, and then we are there, CONSPIRACY, just because i have a different view. I could say the same, be carefull of what you read on the net, you are too brainwashed by the state.

mehh

Just reread what your wrote - this is a paranoid delusion. The world is not like this, we are not in the Matrix or Enemy of the State - this is the real world. What evidence do you have for this, I have never struggled to access any medical studies - for example the original study that linked MMR to Autism can be read here - http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...10960/fulltext in one of the worlds premier medical journals, 'The Lancet'. This study was peer reviewed and the link between MMR and autism thoroughly debunked (not least because this is a study of just 12 children). The point is the study is not covered up.

THe world is all about, nowadays, money and profit mainly, i am not delusional because i said that or that i say that pharmaceutical companies spend lots of money on lobbying. It is just a fact.
Do you know what lobbying is? If so, well, how come they spend millions on that activity?


At the end, we need more proof , more researchs not back up by drugs companies , to debate this properly, so until then, i will believe , like a millions of others, that vaccins are not all that great. I am not totally against it but, i have some reserve about the issue.

[Bob]

[quote=fucktopgirl;1645690]

I don't buy that, if you kid ge the shot, he is safe otherwise why you would give him/her vaccins. Herd immunity, hard time to believe in this sole argument that pro-vaccins people say.

i get so frustrated every time you say this. why exactly don't you buy it? the herd immunity thing is an actual, real thing, it's been proven with experiments. if there's a group of 10 people, and all 10 are vaccinated, then they're as safe as the vaccine can make them. if 2 of them are not vaccinated, then the 8 others are more at risk because vaccines are not 100% effective and the 2 non-vaccinated people are giving the disease a stronger chance to enter the group.

all you can ever say about this is "well vaccines shouldn't work like that, if you're vaccinated you should be safe" but you are objectively wrong about this, because vaccines don't work like that. i don't understand why you don't understand this or what you're basing your opinion on here. it just sounds like you don't want to believe it. what evidence do you have exactly that the herd immunity argument is wrong other than "vaccines should be more effective"?

[yeahwho]

fucktopgirl,

Until you've been exposed to a highly contagious disease prevented by an extremely safe vaccine, you have prejudice and 0 experience. I have experienced a Pertussis outbreak in my own family, my sister even though she was vaccinated has an odd blood type, somebody from Idaho who wasn't vaccinated was having a coughing fit while purchasing something from her at her job at the mall. She became deadly ill and stayed ill for months. It was hard to diagnose and all of the top doctors missed it. She got help from the low income public service clinic who document movements of whooping cough much more stringently. Which says volumes about who gets exposed the most to these deadly diseases.

Her husband, daughter and son were all put on erythromycin as a precaution. All of her close contacts for the initial 3 weeks she was contagious were notified. It's gravely serious what your saying and believing here, life and death serious. I actually believe you are the one who is callous.

[fucktopgirl]

Originally Posted by yeahwho

fucktopgirl,

Until you've been exposed to a highly contagious disease prevented by an extremely safe vaccine, you have prejudice and 0 experience. I have experienced a Pertussis outbreak in my own family, my sister even though she was vaccinated has an odd blood type, somebody from Idaho who wasn't vaccinated was having a coughing fit while purchasing something from her at her job at the mall. She became deadly ill and stayed ill for months. It was hard to diagnose and all of the top doctors missed it. She got help from the low income public service clinic who document movements of whooping cough much more stringently. Which says volumes about who gets exposed the most to these deadly diseases.

Her husband, daughter and son were all put on erythromycin as a precaution. All of her close contacts for the initial 3 weeks she was contagious were notified. It's gravely serious what your saying and believing here, life and death serious. I actually believe you are the one who is callous.

Well, i am sorry to hear that.

It is not all black and white, i suppose.

I think i have to resume my opinion quickly here: What mostly repulse me about vaccins nowadays is the number of disease mix in one shot and the number of shot that one kid has to have before one year old and until he/her is a teenager. If you did check the video i put about the cells reacting to mercury , well you will understand my concern. Thimerosal still is in vaccins and this toxic do some damage.

So, like i said in earlier post, i don't deny totally the vaccins but i have some concern about what they put in the shot . Also, i think there is too many vaccins out there for just about anything. I do believe that lots of money are made on this type of business and that the health of people are not always the main focus of pharmaceutical companies, especially with the lobbying thing.

So, i think people who have kids should choose the vaccins they want to give and not give them all. A little baby who have 9 different diseases in his body in one day, is a bit insane. Too much nasty stuff in one time.


Maybe some middle ground would be the best .

[Documad]

I don't understand science, but I have a passing familiarity with history. I'm glad that my parents and my friends' parents were able to get me immunized, I'm glad they chose to do it, and I'm glad my school required proof of immunization before we enrolled each year.

A fair number of the older people in my family had polio. I had a fear of polio as a kid, even though I knew I'd had vaccine to prevent it.

[Knuckles]

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

Well, i am sorry to hear that.


What mostly repulse me about vaccins nowadays is the number of disease mix in one shot and the number of shot that one kid has to have before one year old and until he/her is a teenager.

Just use an alternative schedule.


This is a quote from Dr. Sears.

The main difference in my suggested alternative vaccine schedule is it spreads the infant vaccines out over the first few years of life, instead of bunching them all up in the first 18 months. It gives fewer vaccines at a time, gives the most important vaccines first, and slightly delays the less important vaccines. But ultimately the end result is the same - a fully vaccinated child. What are the benefits of my alternative schedule compared to the standard one?

This is what my wife and I chose for our children.

[Lyman Zerga]

i hardly read this thread

but my grandma died from a medical abuse, hope that helps!