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Old 02-05-2009, 05:12 PM
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Default Re: Vaccine Nation

Check it out, you want science, you have , oh but it is on youtube, must be a biased source of info,right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5WNL...eature=related



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  #32  
Old 02-05-2009, 06:16 PM
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[quote=fucktopgirl;1645690]
Quote:

I don't buy that, if you kid ge the shot, he is safe otherwise why you would give him/her vaccins. Herd immunity, hard time to believe in this sole argument that pro-vaccins people say.
i get so frustrated every time you say this. why exactly don't you buy it? the herd immunity thing is an actual, real thing, it's been proven with experiments. if there's a group of 10 people, and all 10 are vaccinated, then they're as safe as the vaccine can make them. if 2 of them are not vaccinated, then the 8 others are more at risk because vaccines are not 100% effective and the 2 non-vaccinated people are giving the disease a stronger chance to enter the group.

all you can ever say about this is "well vaccines shouldn't work like that, if you're vaccinated you should be safe" but you are objectively wrong about this, because vaccines don't work like that. i don't understand why you don't understand this or what you're basing your opinion on here. it just sounds like you don't want to believe it. what evidence do you have exactly that the herd immunity argument is wrong other than "vaccines should be more effective"?



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  #33  
Old 02-05-2009, 07:04 PM
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fucktopgirl,

Until you've been exposed to a highly contagious disease prevented by an extremely safe vaccine, you have prejudice and 0 experience. I have experienced a Pertussis outbreak in my own family, my sister even though she was vaccinated has an odd blood type, somebody from Idaho who wasn't vaccinated was having a coughing fit while purchasing something from her at her job at the mall. She became deadly ill and stayed ill for months. It was hard to diagnose and all of the top doctors missed it. She got help from the low income public service clinic who document movements of whooping cough much more stringently. Which says volumes about who gets exposed the most to these deadly diseases.

Her husband, daughter and son were all put on erythromycin as a precaution. All of her close contacts for the initial 3 weeks she was contagious were notified. It's gravely serious what your saying and believing here, life and death serious. I actually believe you are the one who is callous.



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Old 02-05-2009, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahwho View Post
fucktopgirl,

Until you've been exposed to a highly contagious disease prevented by an extremely safe vaccine, you have prejudice and 0 experience. I have experienced a Pertussis outbreak in my own family, my sister even though she was vaccinated has an odd blood type, somebody from Idaho who wasn't vaccinated was having a coughing fit while purchasing something from her at her job at the mall. She became deadly ill and stayed ill for months. It was hard to diagnose and all of the top doctors missed it. She got help from the low income public service clinic who document movements of whooping cough much more stringently. Which says volumes about who gets exposed the most to these deadly diseases.

Her husband, daughter and son were all put on erythromycin as a precaution. All of her close contacts for the initial 3 weeks she was contagious were notified. It's gravely serious what your saying and believing here, life and death serious. I actually believe you are the one who is callous.
Well, i am sorry to hear that.

It is not all black and white, i suppose.

I think i have to resume my opinion quickly here: What mostly repulse me about vaccins nowadays is the number of disease mix in one shot and the number of shot that one kid has to have before one year old and until he/her is a teenager. If you did check the video i put about the cells reacting to mercury , well you will understand my concern. Thimerosal still is in vaccins and this toxic do some damage.

So, like i said in earlier post, i don't deny totally the vaccins but i have some concern about what they put in the shot . Also, i think there is too many vaccins out there for just about anything. I do believe that lots of money are made on this type of business and that the health of people are not always the main focus of pharmaceutical companies, especially with the lobbying thing.

So, i think people who have kids should choose the vaccins they want to give and not give them all. A little baby who have 9 different diseases in his body in one day, is a bit insane. Too much nasty stuff in one time.


Maybe some middle ground would be the best .



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Old 02-05-2009, 10:38 PM
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I don't understand science, but I have a passing familiarity with history. I'm glad that my parents and my friends' parents were able to get me immunized, I'm glad they chose to do it, and I'm glad my school required proof of immunization before we enrolled each year.

A fair number of the older people in my family had polio. I had a fear of polio as a kid, even though I knew I'd had vaccine to prevent it.
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  #36  
Old 02-06-2009, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fucktopgirl View Post
Check it out, you want science, you have , oh but it is on youtube, must be a biased source of info,right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5WNL...eature=related
This is why youtube is a poor source of information you would be better of reading the study itself (http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/leong.pdf). The video shows that mercury is harmful to brain cells – a fact which is not in dispute.

What is misleading is for this to be presented as being relevant to the vaccine debate. The ingredient in Thimerisal is not Mercury (Hg) but Ethylmercury (C2H5Hg+). They have similar sounding names but are not at all the same thing – for example Chlorine (Cl) is a highly toxic substance however Sodium Choride (SaCl) is table salt.

The video itself is not misleading but it has been given a title ‘Mercury in Vaccines Cause Brain Cell Damage’ which is very misleading as Thimerisal does not contain the substance used in the video. You will note that the narrator refers to Mercury in the context of tooth fillings not vaccines suggesting a legitimate video has been hijacked by an anti-vaccine nut.

And has I have pointed out repeatedly, Thimerisal is not used in vaccines anymore. You do not need to take my word for this – this information is freely available to everyone.

So as you can see, the youtube video has been mislabelled to mislead the viewer and I repeat the need to use caution on youtube.

Let us be clear – (Pure and toxic) Mercury is not in Thimerisal. Thimerisal is not in western vaccines.



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  #37  
Old 02-06-2009, 09:23 AM
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I'm disturbed at the prospect of a parent who makes critical health care decisions for his/her kid (and other kids) based upon youtube videos.

It's starting to sink in now that there must be large numbers of parents who are in that same camp. My oh my.
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  #38  
Old 02-06-2009, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fucktopgirl View Post
Well, i am sorry to hear that.


What mostly repulse me about vaccins nowadays is the number of disease mix in one shot and the number of shot that one kid has to have before one year old and until he/her is a teenager.
Just use an alternative schedule.


This is a quote from Dr. Sears.

The main difference in my suggested alternative vaccine schedule is it spreads the infant vaccines out over the first few years of life, instead of bunching them all up in the first 18 months. It gives fewer vaccines at a time, gives the most important vaccines first, and slightly delays the less important vaccines. But ultimately the end result is the same - a fully vaccinated child. What are the benefits of my alternative schedule compared to the standard one?

This is what my wife and I chose for our children.



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  #39  
Old 02-06-2009, 10:24 PM
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i hardly read this thread

but my grandma died from a medical abuse, hope that helps!



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  #40  
Old 02-07-2009, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by fucktopgirl View Post
Heh, the guy just like alternative medecine , sport, vitamines, yoga. He don't like pharmaceutical drugs and companies because they do exist to make profit.

So they objective is not your health per se, but to make monayyyyy!
And you think the guy who made this video doesn't make money?

You think the people in the New Age health movement do this stuff out of charity?

Or do you think they just have created a business to pray on people like you, people skeptical of "big business"?



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  #41  
Old 02-07-2009, 12:04 PM
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^

Did you try to make a point here? I failed to see the relevance of it.



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  #42  
Old 02-07-2009, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fucktopgirl View Post
^

Did you try to make a point here?
Yes.

In fact, I succeeded.

Quote:
I failed to see the relevance of it.
Unsurprising.



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  #43  
Old 02-07-2009, 08:09 PM
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^ I was sarcastic...



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  #44  
Old 02-07-2009, 08:58 PM
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^ I was sarcastic...
So then what you actually meant by that post was actually "You made a great point, EN[i]GMA. I totally see the relevance of it."?

Well thanks!



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Old 02-07-2009, 11:38 PM
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^ haha

No, it was more like " moron, you think you gonna hook me up with that kind of kindergarden argument"



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  #46  
Old 02-11-2009, 04:45 PM
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More recent information on vaccines further provides a clearer picture on how incredibly inept much of this information is.

MMR doctor Andrew Wakefield fixed data on autism


Due to this assholes irresponsibilty

people needlessly suffer


I support the right of people to refuse medical treatment for themselves and their dependents as long as they do so in a fully informed way. There has been a significant amount of misinformation spread by the anti-vaccine types who have little to no understanding of the scientific process. While I'll support their rights to display their ignorance to the public I think the blind acceptance of this viewpoint by so many people demonstrates a sad lack of critical thinking skills in the public.



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  #47  
Old 02-11-2009, 08:32 PM
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^ I don't have the time or the will to debate this anymore!



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  #48  
Old 02-11-2009, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fucktopgirl View Post
^ I don't have the time or the will to debate this anymore!
It's pretty hard to debate falsified documentation anyway.



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  #49  
Old 02-11-2009, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by fucktopgirl View Post
^ I don't have the time or the will to debate this anymore!
You never did. All you had the "time or the will" for was sitting at the computer watching Jenny McCarthy on youtube. As opposed to actually thinking about the ramifications of denying your child proper medical care.



You can't explain to people this type of mindframe

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  #50  
Old 02-11-2009, 09:31 PM
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Whatever ...



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  #51  
Old 02-12-2009, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahwho View Post
More recent information on vaccines further provides a clearer picture on how incredibly inept much of this information is.

MMR doctor Andrew Wakefield fixed data on autism


Due to this assholes irresponsibilty

people needlessly suffer


I support the right of people to refuse medical treatment for themselves and their dependents as long as they do so in a fully informed way. There has been a significant amount of misinformation spread by the anti-vaccine types who have little to no understanding of the scientific process. While I'll support their rights to display their ignorance to the public I think the blind acceptance of this viewpoint by so many people demonstrates a sad lack of critical thinking skills in the public.
There have been some very serious allegation made against Dr Wakefield this week on top of faking the original data. These include:

1)He was paid very large sums of money buy a law firm to develop a scientific case against MMR to help sue pharmaceuticals. A conflict of interest he never declared
2)He took out patents on single shot vaccines 9 months before the MMR study. The patented vaccines had the potential to become very profitable if the MMR were ever withdrawn. It is noted that Dr Wakefield recommended the withdrawal of MMR on the back of his Lancet paper

A good summary of the investigation here - http://briandeer.com/wakefield-deer.htm



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  #52  
Old 02-12-2009, 11:17 AM
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This totally bollocks. You think you have a convincing thing with this thing?

As much as you dont believe my source of info, i dont believe a crap of yours.

Propaganda.

Japan ban the MMR vaccin

Vaccin failed



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  #53  
Old 02-12-2009, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fucktopgirl View Post
This totally bollocks. You think you have a convincing thing with this thing?

As much as you dont believe my source of info, i dont believe a crap of yours.

Propaganda.

Japan ban the MMR vaccin

Vaccin failed

FTP – I should have added that the site I linked to was owned by a journalist. I didn’t because the information in it is easy to verify.

For example – here is the Patent Office record of Wakefields application of 6th June 1997 regarding his new Vaccine.
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?IA=GB1998001637&wo=1998055138&DISPLAY=STATU S

It includes the opening line

Quote:
The present invention relates to a new vaccine/immunisation for the prevention and/or prophylaxis against measles virus infection
And here is the Freedom of information letter revealing Dr Wakefields receipt of taxpayers money for legal work conducted on MMR in the 90s

http://www.destinationsante.com/IMG/...ass-action.pdf

Still think it's bollocks?

By the way - the links in your post didnt work



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  #54  
Old 02-12-2009, 12:34 PM
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http://www.wddty.com/033638003703755...-bans-mmr.html

http://www.wddty.com/033638003706568...sn-t-work.html


THey should works.



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  #55  
Old 02-12-2009, 01:17 PM
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You have posted 2 articles from a sight called “What doctors Don’t Tell You”. Again, I suspect the most important skill that you can learn here is how to research information effectively.

That is not to say that there is not interesting material in these articles. The first accurately reports that Japan banned the MMR in 1993 because the strain of Mumps used was too virulent.

The UK also banned this MMR but instead replaced it with a less virulent version and did not have the problems experienced in Japan – you will note that in all cases the country responded by ensuring the populations safety, shows the controls work. No cover-up, no denial, no big pharma corruption - just fixing the problem as soon as its identified.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about this is this study http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/118735419/HTMLSTART

Which shows that the banning of MMR had no impact on autism rates. Again be clear – MMR does not cause Autism.

The second article quotes the underlying study at the bottom – here is the link

http://nejm.highwire.org/cgi/reprint/358/15/1580.pdf. It would be better if you could have posted this and or read it first as it would have made your post look more convincing and would have helped you understand the issue.

The basic premise is fair though – a strain of mumps exists against which the vaccine is not effective unless a further booster is given. Based on this info, what is the best response?

a)Remove the vaccine and expose all members of the population to all possible strains of mumps (as well as other diseases).
b)Administer a booster to the population
c)Research the new strain, develop your vaccine and introduce it to the population.

I would suggest that b and c are the better alternatives. This is also the recommendation of your links paper which states

Quote:
A more effective mumps vaccine or changes in vaccine policy <additional boosters> may be needed to avert future outbreaks and achieve the elimination of mumps.”
I have not the time to demolish every link you post, I am desperately trying to get across the value of not just going to a conspiracy website and taking their opinion at face value – read the underlying studies and see what it actually says!

Maybe they will agree with you position and if they do, it will strengthen your case immensely. If you post links to sites like wwdty.com or interviews with playboy chicks it makes your argument look weak – mainly because it is weak. If you cannot find a credible source for your data, it is unlikely to be credible data. Spend the extra 2 minutes it takes to read the source info.



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  #56  
Old 02-12-2009, 02:08 PM
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There we go, a conspiracy website...This website seem pretty good to me, better then the one that yeawho post, if you would ask me.

Why a conspiracy? Because it goes again what you have been fed with all your life. Because it is another point of view which differ from the main stream propaganda.



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  #57  
Old 02-12-2009, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by fucktopgirl View Post
There we go, a conspiracy website...This website seem pretty good to me, better then the one that yeawho post, if you would ask me.
I'm curious. What makes your website better than yeahwho's?
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  #58  
Old 02-12-2009, 08:29 PM
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The evidence continually bombards the studies of Dr. Andrew Wakefield, who says there is a link between MMP vaccine and autism, this becomes such a blatant lie that I'm amazed anyone would support his findings. I try and keep an open mind about these issues and once had the some reservations about the vaccine programs... the autism issue is one all parents in the past decade have weighed in on.

Even with Dr. Wakefield's lies, people used common sense and continued to err on the side of health.


Lawyers purchase an anti-consensus, manufacture a link between mercury vaccines and autism


A press report reveals the financial connection between the doctors promoting a link between autism and vaccination and the law firm suing vaccine makers.

The Times obtained a record of the payments made by the legal teams that have pursued lawsuits against vaccine makers on behalf of autistic children in England. It revealed that the primary author of the first paper that suggested a mercury-autism link, Dr. Andrew Wakefield, began receiving payments from the lawyers starting a full two years before his first published study on the topic. In the decade since, Dr. Wakefield has received a total of over £435,000. Several of his business associates and co-workers received over £100,000; all told, roughly £3.4 million was paid out for the expert work and testimony of doctors associated with the research. In a further conflict of interest, the autistic children that were the subjects of the studies were also the plaintiffs in the lawsuit.


The more I read up on this Dr. Wakefield the more I feel as if all objectivity is lost by you fucktopgirl. He is a total douche bag asshole.



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  #59  
Old 02-13-2009, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by fucktopgirl View Post
There we go, a conspiracy website...This website seem pretty good to me, better then the one that yeawho post, if you would ask me.

Why a conspiracy? Because it goes again what you have been fed with all your life. Because it is another point of view which differ from the main stream propaganda.

The website is called 'What Doctors Don't Tell You'. This name suggests that doctors are engaged in a conspiracy against patients by not telling them things they need to know. That is why it is a conspiracy website - it is a website claiming that a conspiracy is going on, do you see?

You will also note that in the links you posted, the articles misrepresented the information (as I have demonstrated clearly above) in order to support their conspiracy theory - the theory that doctors have decided to secretly gang together to mislead the public and trick them into taken harmful treatments so that they and the pharmaceutical indurstry can make loads of money.

Your reference to mainstream propaganda is disturbing - I have shown you that you can view the underlying data yourself. I have shown you the studies in the medical journals, I have shown you the actual evidence against doctor Wakefield, these are the raw facts - unspoiled by commentary or opinion. YOU CAN DO THIS YOURSELF - USE GOOGLE.

Good science happens when you view evidence first and draw conclusions based on that evidence. If you have a website called, 'What doctors dont tell you' it means they have started from the premise that there is a conspiracy and are going to present evidence (or in this case misrepresetnt evidence) to support their case and they are going to filter out evidence that disagrees with them. That is to say, they start with the conclusion and search for evidence they can find to fit with that conclusion. This is how pseudoscience works and it does this because it is designed, not to find truth, but mislead people who do not understand the scientific method.

I am afraid I am rapidly losing patience with this. I am trying to help you but you continue to treat this as a personal attack. In the interest of helping you, I repeat my offer to help you find and understand scientific literature that may be of use to you. My continued reason for posting here is the hope that I can help protect the health of you and your family, however, it is becoming increasingly clear that I am not getting through to you, so I think this is probably a good end to this discussion.



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  #60  
Old 02-13-2009, 09:35 AM
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Default Re: Vaccine Nation

^ help me??? Please, help yourself...

You guys are stuck on doctor wakefield. This is just one case of bollocks. .

HAl , i appreciate your devotion but, i prefer my source of info . It is not about a conspiracy, it is about some facts that are not always in the headlines news because it could harm the business of pharmaceutical companies. Some doctors are sell out some are not. A fact that some drugs and vaccins are not all that great in the end. You think medecine arrive at her apogee? No more mistakes can be made? Right...

The two last link i posted are quite good with real information. But that not enough for you. Because of the title of the website. OK then, no need to discuss here anymore if you are not able to debate information i put here.

http://www.therealessentials.com/vaccination-princ.html

INstead you are somewhat telling me that i am not critic enough and wise enough to see true info from wrong and you say i take this personally, not at all. I don't give a shit really what you think of me and my ideas.

To each their own. In my view , YOU are the one who is a bit sidetrack by just believing main stream media...



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