Vaccine Nation

[HAL 9000]

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

To each their own.

Unfortunately not because your actions (assuming you are not having your kid(s) vaccinated) are increasing the chances of my kids getting sick. Also you do not own your children so much as have a duty of care – it is not fair for them to be put in danger by your beliefs, they are innocent.

I am not saying all vaccines are necessary – you may be correct in saying that there are too many on the market. In the UK there is a publicly run vaccination program covering just the essentials (I don’t think Chicken Pox is included but I could be wrong) – I guess there is something similar where you live and you and your family should certainly have those.

I don’t know much about what vaccines available but if a vaccine against chicken pox is available and effective then great – getting chicken pox is not nice and it is dangerous (you can die of it). I suspect the technology did not exist for such a vaccine when we were younger which is why you never had it.

Like i said before, we have to be aware that nowadays, there is too much vaccins , too soon and for about anything. So, for me, this is a proof of the will to make profit. Vaccins for cold and chicken pox, that the proof that something wrong.

It is not proof that something is wrong unless you can point to an independent, double blind and peer reviewed study demonstrating that these vaccines are not effective (or at least not cost effective). If you can do this, then you are correct but if no such data exists then you are probably wrong! Rather than watching youtube vids – you should be looking for and reading these papers, find the study that backs your position or admit you are probably wrong.

There is an exces of pills consumption, and this at an early age. The herds things might be true but ya know this is the only argument that people who believe in vaccin are saying, ALL the time.

You cant blame people for repeatedly using an argument that is true! Lets be clear – responsible people are put in danger by others who are not getting vaccinated. We are angry about it – that is why they keep going on about it.

I dont drink and drive and I would sure be angry at the drunk driver who runs down my kids.

[fucktopgirl]

[quote]

Originally Posted by HAL 9000

Unfortunately not because your actions (assuming you are not having your kid(s) vaccinated) are increasing the chances of my kids getting sick. Also you do not own your children so much as have a duty of care – it is not fair for them to be put in danger by your beliefs, they are innocent.

BUllshit, if your kid is vaccinated, well he is OK. He got the immunization , right? So the only kid at risk would be mine. Your argument is one of culpability and i refuse to feel culpable. I just take my own kid health in my hand and it is my right to not join this movement of fears against disease.
In our society everyone suffer from hypochondria, i choose not too.

I don’t know much about what vaccines available but if a vaccine against chicken pox is available and effective then great – getting chicken pox is not nice and it is dangerous (you can die of it). I suspect the technology did not exist for such a vaccine when we were younger which is why you never had it.

Did you ever heard about infant sickeness, like measle, chicken pox, the slap chee syndrome.... Thoses are disease that a kid shoud get in order to boost his/her immune system NATURALLY. They are ok to get and good for you, anyway that what doctor where saying back in the days. YOu can die of anything, death is a natural process in humanity. It happen and it is ok. We cannot live forever. But rarely i'v heard people dying of chicken pox in my life. Everybody , all my friend did have it and no big deal. Those disease are there, naturally and kids who fight it will have a stronger immune system wihtout the toxic shit in the vaccins.

It is also dangerous to cross the street , ya know, but we do it everyday.

It is not proof that something is wrong unless you can point to an independent, double blind and peer reviewed study demonstrating that these vaccines are not effective (or at least not cost effective). If you can do this, then you are correct but if no such data exists then you are probably wrong! Rather than watching youtube vids – you should be looking for and reading these papers, find the study that backs your position or admit you are probably wrong.

Well, that is the main problem , there is no independant study and if one happen to exist, the report will not get main stream attention. Pharmaceutical companies spend millions every years in lobbying and getting add for their drugs and eradicating every study that will harm their business.

So, yeah, there is not a lot of data about the negative effect of vaccines because thoses are not allowed to come to life. There must be studies , independant ones, but for a simple citizen like me and you, it is hard to acces it.

You cant blame people for repeatedly using an argument that is true! Lets be clear – responsible people are put in danger by others who are not getting vaccinated. We are angry about it – that is why they keep going on about it.

I dont drink and drive and I would sure be angry at the drunk driver who runs down my kids.

I am angry that people have an uterly blind faith in the drugs and vaccins companies. That they believe that they,drugs companies, care about your kid health. They do not. They don't give a shit at the end of the day. Like i said, maybe vaccination start with a genuine thought but it is no longer this state of mind that motivate the making of vaccins and drugs, it is all about $$$$

Heh, don't compare me to a drunk driver, that is just the worst analogy someone could possibly choose. I don't put anyone else in danger because my kid and others are not getting this shit into their blood stream. If you kid is arm with the vaccin , if the disease come along, his/her body will recognise the disease and be OK , right?

So, i will not feel bad about my decision, not at all .

[HAL 9000]

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

BUllshit, if your kid is vaccinated, well he is OK. He got the immunization , right? So the only kid at risk would be mine.

.....

Heh, don't compare me to a drunk driver, that is just the worst analogy someone could possibly choose. I don't put anyone else in danger because my kid and others are not getting this shit into their blood stream. If you kid is arm with the vaccin , if the disease come along, his/her body will recognise the disease and be OK , right?

So, i will not feel bad about my decision, not at all .

I'm sorry but this is just not true. Vaccinations can never be 100% effective - that is why it is important that everyone has them because the protection comes from achieving the Herd Immunity Threshold in a population because at this point disease cannot spread.

Did you ever heard about infant sickeness, like measle, chicken pox, the slap chee syndrome.... Thoses are disease that a kid shoud get in order to boost his/her immune system NATURALLY. They are ok to get and good for you, anyway that what doctor where saying back in the days. YOu can die of anything, death is a natural process in humanity. It happen and it is ok. We cannot live forever. But rarely i'v heard people dying of chicken pox in my life. Everybody , all my friend did have it and no big deal. Those disease are there, naturally and kids who fight it will have a stronger immune system wihtout the toxic shit in the vaccins.

Yes it is true that people die. But if you can reduce the risk of people dying young then why not do it? Natural does not equal good , medical advances have made huge improvements to peoples longevity and morbidity - to reject medical science on the grounds it is unnatural seems silly.

For example, medical technology has greatly reduced the number of women who die during childbirth - would you condemn this as unnatural?

Health needs regulation, and if you are not satisfied with the regulatory controls in place, investigate your local health regulator rather than just following some conspircy theory you read on the net.

Well, that is the main problem , there is no independant study and if one happen to exist, the report will not get main stream attention. Pharmaceutical companies spend millions every years in lobbying and getting add for their drugs and eradicating every study that will harm their business.

So, yeah, there is not a lot of data about the negative effect of vaccines because thoses are not allowed to come to life. There must be studies , independant ones, but for a simple citizen like me and you, it is hard to acces it.

Just reread what your wrote - this is a paranoid delusion. The world is not like this, we are not in the Matrix or Enemy of the State - this is the real world. What evidence do you have for this, I have never struggled to access any medical studies - for example the original study that linked MMR to Autism can be read here - http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...10960/fulltext in one of the worlds premier medical journals, 'The Lancet'. This study was peer reviewed and the link between MMR and autism thoroughly debunked (not least because this is a study of just 12 children). The point is the study is not covered up.

[ms.peachy]

Forget it. There is no point to arguing science and logic with someone who is willfully apathetic and ignorant to both. Sadly such thickness means children's lives are put at risk, for no reason.

[fucktopgirl]

Originally Posted by ms.peachy

Forget it. There is no point to arguing science and logic with someone who is willfully apathetic and ignorant to both. Sadly such thickness means children's lives are put at risk, for no reason.

Personnal attack, well, i see the degree of your conscience...So much wisdom and maturity.

Let me throw back at you your insults, if you please

I feel the same way toward you, i think you are quite stupid and constipated. And then because people who cannot be critic of what the system impose us, and that have blind faith,kids health are at risk.

Tata !!

[ms.peachy]

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

Personnal attack, well, i see the degree of your conscience...So much wisdom and maturity.

Let me throw back at you your insults, if you please

I feel the same way toward you, i think you are quite stupid and constipated. And then because people who cannot be critic of what the system impose us, and that have blind faith,kids health are at risk.

Tata !!

You can take it as a personal attack if you like. I was referring to pretty much everyone who buys into the entire anti-vaccine nonsense, so if you want to be offended on everyone's behalf, go right ahead.

I never used the word 'stupid'. I said "willfully apathetic and ignorant." There is a difference. If you're not stupid, you'll be able to see that. And if you are not willfully apathetic and ignorant, you'll maybe educate yourself a bit about how vaccines actually work, and what herd immunity is, and why it matters.

[HAL 9000]

FTG, This will be my last post on the topic – it has gone on too long already. I am just trying to help you see the value of the scientific method as a tool for filtering data, I may well have failed at that but it was worth a shot. Just for clarification, I was not saying you are as bad as a drunk driver, my point was just that I am powerless to protect myself and my family from disease if others do not vaccinate (in case there was any misunderstanding).

I don’t know why you find the concept of Herd Immunity hard to believe, it seems a straight forward concept – as I do not know what the difficulty you have is, I will just post a link that may help you - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_modelling_in_epidemiology#The_mathema tics_of_mass_vaccination

This study shows that infection in vaccinated children increases when the level of vaccination in the population drops - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10404911

You say vaccines contain toxic and deadly substances and this is just does not seem to be true – I presume you mean Thiomersal which is neither toxic nor in vaccines (at least in the US and Europe). If you name the substance you are concerned about – I would be happy to help scan the scientific literature for more information.

You raised the question as to which one of us is brainwashed. The reason I know it is you and not me is that my information is filtered by the scientific method and represents the scientific consensus. I have demonstrated to you that anti-pharma studies are not suppressed and can be easily found in the literature which should help dissuade you from this idea that there is an enormous conspiracy at play.

The reason that it is you and not me that is buying into a conspiracy theory is that my view does not require a conspiracy. I am saying that thousands of independent scientists working in universities and labs around the world are doing good science, writing their theses and reporting their results while commenting on others as they always have done. You are saying that all these scientists are being paid, blackmailed or manipulated to change or hide their data whilst not reporting this enormous crime to the media or law enforcement. Do you see why it is your view that is the conspiracy and not mine? It is not just that you have a different view.

I am aware of lobbying and that it is a tool for companies to move regulation in their favour – I don’t like it either. It does not mean, however, that regulation is ineffective or that the scientific method cannot be trusted or that the pharmaceutical industry is poisoning people. By all means voice your concerns regarding this practice, just don’t go overboard and end up hurting yourself or your family.

Wikipedia seems to have a lot of good data on these issues – I would recommend it as a useful tool with a good overview. Here are some more links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_controversy

[fucktopgirl]

[quote]

Originally Posted by HAL 9000

I'm sorry but this is just not true. Vaccinations can never be 100% effective - that is why it is important that everyone has them because the protection comes from achieving the Herd Immunity Threshold in a population because at this point disease cannot spread.

I don't buy that, if you kid ge the shot, he is safe otherwise why you would give him/her vaccins. Herd immunity, hard time to believe in this sole argument that pro-vaccins people say.

For example, medical technology has greatly reduced the number of women who die during childbirth - would you condemn this as unnatural?

Nope, this is ok, i mean no problem there. Vaccinations is quite different , they injected toxic substance into the blood stream, some of thoses substances are quite deadly and toxics.

Health needs regulation, and if you are not satisfied with the regulatory controls in place, investigate your local health regulator rather than just following some conspircy theory you read on the net.

Hahaha, and then we are there, CONSPIRACY, just because i have a different view. I could say the same, be carefull of what you read on the net, you are too brainwashed by the state.

mehh

Just reread what your wrote - this is a paranoid delusion. The world is not like this, we are not in the Matrix or Enemy of the State - this is the real world. What evidence do you have for this, I have never struggled to access any medical studies - for example the original study that linked MMR to Autism can be read here - http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...10960/fulltext in one of the worlds premier medical journals, 'The Lancet'. This study was peer reviewed and the link between MMR and autism thoroughly debunked (not least because this is a study of just 12 children). The point is the study is not covered up.

THe world is all about, nowadays, money and profit mainly, i am not delusional because i said that or that i say that pharmaceutical companies spend lots of money on lobbying. It is just a fact.
Do you know what lobbying is? If so, well, how come they spend millions on that activity?


At the end, we need more proof , more researchs not back up by drugs companies , to debate this properly, so until then, i will believe , like a millions of others, that vaccins are not all that great. I am not totally against it but, i have some reserve about the issue.

[Bob]

[quote=fucktopgirl;1645690]

I don't buy that, if you kid ge the shot, he is safe otherwise why you would give him/her vaccins. Herd immunity, hard time to believe in this sole argument that pro-vaccins people say.

i get so frustrated every time you say this. why exactly don't you buy it? the herd immunity thing is an actual, real thing, it's been proven with experiments. if there's a group of 10 people, and all 10 are vaccinated, then they're as safe as the vaccine can make them. if 2 of them are not vaccinated, then the 8 others are more at risk because vaccines are not 100% effective and the 2 non-vaccinated people are giving the disease a stronger chance to enter the group.

all you can ever say about this is "well vaccines shouldn't work like that, if you're vaccinated you should be safe" but you are objectively wrong about this, because vaccines don't work like that. i don't understand why you don't understand this or what you're basing your opinion on here. it just sounds like you don't want to believe it. what evidence do you have exactly that the herd immunity argument is wrong other than "vaccines should be more effective"?

[yeahwho]

fucktopgirl,

Until you've been exposed to a highly contagious disease prevented by an extremely safe vaccine, you have prejudice and 0 experience. I have experienced a Pertussis outbreak in my own family, my sister even though she was vaccinated has an odd blood type, somebody from Idaho who wasn't vaccinated was having a coughing fit while purchasing something from her at her job at the mall. She became deadly ill and stayed ill for months. It was hard to diagnose and all of the top doctors missed it. She got help from the low income public service clinic who document movements of whooping cough much more stringently. Which says volumes about who gets exposed the most to these deadly diseases.

Her husband, daughter and son were all put on erythromycin as a precaution. All of her close contacts for the initial 3 weeks she was contagious were notified. It's gravely serious what your saying and believing here, life and death serious. I actually believe you are the one who is callous.

[fucktopgirl]

Originally Posted by yeahwho

fucktopgirl,

Until you've been exposed to a highly contagious disease prevented by an extremely safe vaccine, you have prejudice and 0 experience. I have experienced a Pertussis outbreak in my own family, my sister even though she was vaccinated has an odd blood type, somebody from Idaho who wasn't vaccinated was having a coughing fit while purchasing something from her at her job at the mall. She became deadly ill and stayed ill for months. It was hard to diagnose and all of the top doctors missed it. She got help from the low income public service clinic who document movements of whooping cough much more stringently. Which says volumes about who gets exposed the most to these deadly diseases.

Her husband, daughter and son were all put on erythromycin as a precaution. All of her close contacts for the initial 3 weeks she was contagious were notified. It's gravely serious what your saying and believing here, life and death serious. I actually believe you are the one who is callous.

Well, i am sorry to hear that.

It is not all black and white, i suppose.

I think i have to resume my opinion quickly here: What mostly repulse me about vaccins nowadays is the number of disease mix in one shot and the number of shot that one kid has to have before one year old and until he/her is a teenager. If you did check the video i put about the cells reacting to mercury , well you will understand my concern. Thimerosal still is in vaccins and this toxic do some damage.

So, like i said in earlier post, i don't deny totally the vaccins but i have some concern about what they put in the shot . Also, i think there is too many vaccins out there for just about anything. I do believe that lots of money are made on this type of business and that the health of people are not always the main focus of pharmaceutical companies, especially with the lobbying thing.

So, i think people who have kids should choose the vaccins they want to give and not give them all. A little baby who have 9 different diseases in his body in one day, is a bit insane. Too much nasty stuff in one time.


Maybe some middle ground would be the best .