The White House is asking that you report dissenting views

[QueenAdrock]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

Oh, you must be alluding to the Patroit Act.
Obama continued that too.
Illegal wiretapping is fine with him.

Didn't like this kind of shit under Bush, and I don't like under this guy either.

Yeah, Hillary voted for re-authorization, even after she came out saying it was crap. Both Hillary and Obama said that they didn't agree with the impeding of civil liberties, but they agreed with other provisions of the act and it was worth it to them to give up a few civil liberties for the overall security that the bill provided. The Democrats who refused to vote for re-authorization of the Patriot Act didn't have a realistic shot at the presidency last year.

Either way, I agree that the bill is bullshit. I don't want to give up any of my liberties for any security. That's the beginning of a snowball that shouldn't have been created.

At what point does the government incrementaly taking away your freedom become too much?

As for that...they're not taking away any freedom. They're asking for you to volunteer information, if you know anything. They're not demanding. You're offering your name, your email address, your information you provide. They're not forcing it out of you; you're doing it under your own free will. If you don't trust the government with that kind of information, then you don't report anything.

[Documad]

Of course people have the freedom to spam the internet with their nonsense about Obama putting together panels of government doctors to decide that your disabled child will be murdered by the government (I'm looking at you Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin). But those people have to willing to live with the consequences of being called on their shit. Of course they won't be rounded up by the police. But Obama's people certainly have the right to gauge what sort of lies are out there and speak out against them. This is all public stuff.

I'd personally never send an email to Obama. I'm sick to death of him hitting me up for cash. If I got that sort of crazy email about healthcare, I'd send it right back to the moron who sent it to me and embarrass the shit out of them. But then I honestly don't know anyone that stupid so I'm unlikely to get the sort of email they're looking for.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

I don't know what to tell you, Bob.
Maybe the government will do nothing with people's names.

you can tell me what you think could possibly happen to people who get reported, like i keep asking you! come on rob, you invoked the holocaust, you can't back out now by saying "i don't know what to tell you"

once you play the nazi card you can't play the modesty card, that's the rule. i really want to know. worst case scenario. someone forwards sarah palin's "death panel" blog to a relative and gets reported for it. what, in the most unlikely dystopian future (with an articulable tie to reality) you can imagine, could possibly happen to that person?

you're making this vague (yet remarkably ominous) prediction about how the obama administration is going to make a list of people who disagree with its policies and...do...something...to...them and you can't just stop there, it isn't fair, you're absolutely killing me, you just have to tell me what that something is! what, in your biggest fear of fears is going to happen?

a blacklist?
waterboarding?
electrodes to the balls?
secret guantanamo?
a beer in the whitehouse?

make a prediction, i'm begging you. assume that you've convinced me to be scared, tell me what i'm supposed to be scared of

[Michelle*s_Farm]

Originally Posted by Bob

make up your mind, rob. does obama want to turn this country into north korea or nazi germany?

There is a third option. Obama bears a striking resemblance to Damien from the prophetic '81 film The Final Conflict:

http://www.deadlantern.com/reviews/2008/10/omen3.jpg

[yeahwho]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

I don't know how else to 'splain it to you?
I'm not trying to make a statement about healthcare, I'm raising the issue of Obama becoming the new Joe McCarthy.

It would be fun to have Obama question Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly and a slew of other right wing pundits. Accusing them of being the Worlds most "hammiest" crybabies.

Obamanism. There I'll coin it and watch me never recieve any credit for that term ever.

[yeahwho]

Originally Posted by Bob

once you play the nazi card you can't play the modesty card, that's the rule. i really want to know.

lol, you can never go back after that.

[yeahwho]

Originally Posted by Documad

I'd personally never send an email to Obama. I'm sick to death of him hitting me up for cash. If I got that sort of crazy email about healthcare, I'd send it right back to the moron who sent it to me and embarrass the shit out of them. But then I honestly don't know anyone that stupid so I'm unlikely to get the sort of email they're looking for.

They're all maniacal money grubbing whores when it comes down to it. You never get a return on your dollar and it would be really embarrassing to have some loon asking me to act like an ass on their behalf so they can continue to have power over me.

Fuck this is so moronic I'm embarrassed to partake in it. The only caveat is you guys are funny and the band rocks.

This generation of idiots would be lucky to correctly order a #3 meal at McDonald's let alone trying to achieve a Lunar Landing or something miraculous of that sort of order.

[DroppinScience]

Originally Posted by Bob

what, in your biggest fear of fears is going to happen?

a beer in the whitehouse?

This would probably be the most terrifying scenario under Der Komissar Obama. I mean, seriously, drinking a Bud Light? That's like drinking water. I'm scared, and I don't know why nobody else is scared too!!!

[DroppinScience]

Rob's right, fellas. I think these are the prison camps Obama is setting up for the dissenters!

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...heck-web-site/

What tyranny!

[saz]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

and being called a crazy loon for going to a town hall and disagreeing with the proposed healthcare plan.

you mean angry mobs going to town hall events and harrassing those inside, and issuing death threats to a congressman.

[yeahwho]

Like Sarah Palin and a host of other not very effective pundits, RobMoney you argue-by-extremes.

You know you will be able to have more coffee and donuts but since Obama has decided to elicit e-mails via computer technology, we're being led to Death Panels and eventually a certain... well let me hurt my brain and try to relate, some sort of superior race that's part white, black and has only the mother raise them or some fucked up nonsense.

The reality of eventually following your illogical path to it's conclusion provides humor.

The below article is from that NAZI propaganda machine, USA Today.. the Faith and religion page,

Is Palin's Schlafly-style fear rhetoric ethical politics?

I'll leave it to our editorial page to debunk the unsubstantiated and preposterous Palin press release -- a wild distortion of an optional benefit already offered under Medicare to pay doctors for helping patients and their family face end-of-life decision making according to their own values.

What interests me here is the tactical gimmick of arguing-by-extremes. Palin reflects the teachings of the master -- Phyllis Schlafly, founder of the Eagle Forum and a conservative-right tactician extraordinaire.

[RobMoney$]

Originally Posted by Bob

you can tell me what you think could possibly happen to people who get reported, like i keep asking you! come on rob, you invoked the holocaust, you can't back out now by saying "i don't know what to tell you"

once you play the nazi card you can't play the modesty card, that's the rule. i really want to know. worst case scenario. someone forwards sarah palin's "death panel" blog to a relative and gets reported for it. what, in the most unlikely dystopian future (with an articulable tie to reality) you can imagine, could possibly happen to that person?

you're making this vague (yet remarkably ominous) prediction about how the obama administration is going to make a list of people who disagree with its policies and...do...something...to...them and you can't just stop there, it isn't fair, you're absolutely killing me, you just have to tell me what that something is! what, in your biggest fear of fears is going to happen?

a blacklist?
waterboarding?
electrodes to the balls?
secret guantanamo?
a beer in the whitehouse?

make a prediction, i'm begging you. assume that you've convinced me to be scared, tell me what i'm supposed to be scared of

So bitter.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

So bitter.

so you don't know?

[RobMoney$]

I shouldn't indulge you because I know you're not debating in good faith, Bob. You stringing me along here for some personal insult, But fuck it.

Let's say here's the scale of:
"Things that could possibly happen with the government collecting a list of names"

10 - Dissenters put into prison camps
9
8
7
6
5 - Dissenters will be charged with a misdemeanor of some sort.
4
3
2
1 - Dissenters will be sent an e-mail with "Obama's facts", setting them straight on the healthcare issue.
0 - Nothing


What will probably happen IMO, is anywhere from a 0 to a 1.

And as long as we have history books that tell us about the horrors of Nazi Germany, you can't say shit like that will never happen, because it did happen. So that has to be included in the "List of possibilities", right?

Now you may be fine with the Government compiling a list of names and doing something as benign as sending out a response e-mail, or something similar. If you're comfortable with that, fine.
I'm not.

The line for me is at 0 on that scale. Actually, my opinion is that they shouldn't even be making a list in the first place therefore there shouldn't even be a scale.

Answer me this Bob,
Why are they asking for names, or email addy's? Why can't people just cut and paste the disinformation they're asking for so they can compile a response?

[saz]

dude, they launched a reality-check website, where supporters of healthcare reform can forward the latest rounds of attacks from the right, in order to debunk healthcare reform lies and other b.s. being spread by the gop, wingnut talk radio show hosts, private health insurance company lobbyists, and other special interests. the fact that you're comparing this to nazi germany is incredibly bizarre and idiotic.

Originally Posted by Phillip Elliott, The Associated Press

WASHINGTON — The White House on Monday turned to its favorite tool – the Internet – to bolster President Barack Obama's push for health care overhaul and challenge misconceptions about Democratic plans.

The Web site seeks to disprove several claims made by critics, including that proposed changes would result in rationing of care, euthanasia or end Medicare. As lawmakers return home for their August recess and faced wary constituents, the White House sought to calm fears and brace for a barrage of accusations.

"Given a lot of the outrageous claims floating around, it's time to make sure everyone knows the facts about the security and stability you get with health insurance reform," said White House senior adviser David Axelrod.

During last year's campaign, the Obama organization created a Web site to challenge what it said were smears. On that Web site, for instance, Obama posted a copy of his birth certificate to debunk claims that he is not a citizen.

Organizing for America, President Barack Obama's political operation, also urged supporters to visit the offices of members of Congress to express their support for overhaul. The sessions, dubbed "Office Visits for Health Reform," are designed to counter the opposition and tap into the president's extensive grass-roots network established during the campaign.

The e-mail appeal to supporters suggest they stop by the local congressional office for a quick conversation or to drop off a customized flier. "We can't let extremists hijack this debate, or confuse Congress about where the people stand," the e-mail says.

Claims about what health care overhaul would do have dogged the White House. Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin posted on her Facebook page that Obama's plan would create a "death panel" that would deny care to the neediest Americans. Radio personality Rush Limbaugh compared a White House health office logo to a Nazi symbol.

Opponents have disrupted town hall-style events with members of Congress. The White House is bracing for its own disruptions when the president heads to New Hampshire to talk about health care on Tuesday. His aides and advisers, meanwhile, are pushing back on specific concerns on the Web.

I'm here to tell you, quite simply, that if you are eligible for (Veterans Affairs) health care, you will remain eligible," said Matt Flavin, the White House's policy adviser for veterans affairs. "There is no impact on VA health care."

On the same site, Council of Economic Advisers chairwoman Christina Romer called complaints about small business impact a "myth" and White House policy chief Melody Barnes called rumors of euthanasia "fiction." They then explain why they believe the criticism is bunk.

Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, brushed off the White House's new message.

"In reality, the Web site simply recycles the same false claims that the administration and its allies in Congress have been pedaling for weeks," he said in an e-mail to supporters.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

Let's say here's the scale of:
"Things that could possibly happen with the government collecting a list of names"

10 - Dissenters put into prison camps
9
8
7
6
5 - Dissenters will be charged with a misdemeanor of some sort.
4
3
2
1 - Dissenters will be sent an e-mail with "Obama's facts", setting them straight on the healthcare issue.
0 - Nothing


What will probably happen IMO, is anywhere from a 0 to a 1.

And as long as we have history books that tell us about the horrors of Nazi Germany, you can't say shit like that will never happen, because it did happen. So that has to be included in the "List of possibilities", right?

what? no, it doesn't have to be included. here's what bothers me about what you're doing; it doesn't sound to me like you're innocently comparing obama to hitler as a "list of possibilities", it sounds to me like you're saying "this is how hitler got started", when the possibility of this thing snowballing into fascism (or is it socialism? communism?) is so impossibly slim that i think it's downright irresponsible to talk about it like it's got any reasonable chance whatsoever of happening. it doesn't. and it's incredibly hard to have a reasonable debate about public healthcare when you constantly have to stop and explain how it's nothing like nazi germany.

obama is not hitler (or stalin or kim jong il or...whoever, pick one). he will never be hitler. as shitty as bush was, even he wasn't hitler - he was just a terrible president. i didn't like it when people compared his administration to the nazis, and i don't like it now. the fact that you don't see a problem with comparing this to nazi germany is upsetting me, rob. hitler started a war with the world and exterminated 6 million jews. obama's asking people to tell him the rumors they're hearing about health care. i don't see the link.

Answer me this Bob,
Why are they asking for names, or email addy's? Why can't people just cut and paste the disinformation they're asking for so they can compile a response?

are they asking for names? i looked at the website and i didn't see that. they said "If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov. " nothing about names. of course i'm sure they're going to get a few - some people will just forward the e-mails, some people might even be paranoid nuts who want to snitch on their neighbors, but i don't see what's stopping people from cutting and pasting the body of the e-mail and just leaving the contact information out. in fact i think that's exactly what the government is asking people to do...?

did i miss something?

[RobMoney$]

What bothers me is the fact that you're so sure it could never happen.
It fucking happened approx. 60 years ago. It's not even like it's ancient history. There are still living survivors of the Holocaust.

To suggest that it's out of the realm of possibility for it to ever happen is an insult to those survivors.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

What bothers me is the fact that you're so sure it could never happen.
It fucking happened approx. 60 years ago. It's not even like it's ancient history. There are still living survivors of the Holocaust.

To suggest that it's out of the realm of possibility for it to ever happen is an insult to those survivors.

if i survived the holocaust, i think i'd be more offended by people casually invoking it every time they get a president they don't like

but i guess i can't speak for them (i don't think you can either though)

[RobMoney$]

I'd like to think a survivors message would be to make sure it never happens again. To be vigilant in making an issue at the slightest hint of subversive tactics by your government.


Fuck it man. Believe Obama's Govenment run propoganda machine.

[Dorothy Wood]

Originally Posted by Bob

if i survived the holocaust, i think i'd be more offended by people casually invoking it every time they get a president they don't like

QFT.


also, rob, you forget that all the crazy racist fucks, the kind of people who follow a leader blindly enough to commit mass murder...are on the right. obama followers are pussies. there's no way you could get anyone who follows obama to work at an internment camp.

I know it doesn't seem like it, but people are a lot smarter and a lot more aware of themselves and their government than they were 60 years ago...heck, 10 years ago.

it's just not going to happen. so, STFU about hitler.



as far as the snitching thing goes....erm, I'm kind of concerned because it seems creepy. I'm not scared though. It's not like they're offering incentives to rat people out, or actually forcing people to turn people in. they're just providing information if they want.

everyone's still free. FOR NOW. DUN DUN DUNNNNNNN

[RobMoney$]

Originally Posted by Dorothy Wood

QFT.
also, rob, you forget that all the crazy racist fucks, the kind of people who follow a leader blindly enough to commit mass murder...are on the right. obama followers are pussies. there's no way you could get anyone who follows obama to work at an internment camp.

Way to stereotype

[Bob]

i think there's a fairly bright line between "believing everything the government says" and "refusing to compare the president to hitler" and i'm pretty comfortable with my position with respect to that line

do you really in your heart of hearts think that there's a chance, however slim or unlikely, that obama is secretly a homicidal monster who, when we least expect it, will round up his opponents into camps and murder them? like the holocaust? that's what he might possibly have had planned from the beginning? and that we owe a duty to the victims of the holocaust, both living and dead, to stress this unlikely possibility every time obama does something we find suspicious? and that anyone who refuses to do so is some kind of sheep?

this has been enlightening...

[RobMoney$]

When I see anyone employing tactics the Nazi's used, no matter how benign, I shout it from the fucking rooftops.

Don't want to be compared to Nazi's? Don't do shit that they did.
Simple.

[Bob]

i'll be sure to keep it mind

[QueenAdrock]

It's asking for voluntary information, that people are willing to give. It's not subversive tactics. It's just gleaning information from people who are willing to help him fight the smears. Their personal information will go into a database that he can later hit up for money. That's the way politics works.

As someone with a BA in European History and a Master's in Information Science, I can assure you this has no parallels to Nazi Germany or propaganda. I could give you a whole long diatribe explaining why comparing Obama's politely asking for voluntary information is completely different from the Gestapo, who did not have to answer to judicial review and were exempt from all German laws, but I have a feeling it would be an exercise in futility. I could see this being a concern if Obama was actually demanding information from the people and saying something like it's their "patriotic duty" to do give information. He's not. He's asking. You can refuse to give information, without having to worry about responding to the SS.

[saz]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

When I see anyone employing tactics the Nazi's used, no matter how benign, I shout it from the fucking rooftops.

Don't want to be compared to Nazi's? Don't do shit that they did.
Simple.

yeah, setting up a reality-check website in which people can forward healthcare reform smears, so the smears can be debunked, just reeks of nazi germany.

michele bachmann or what.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by saz

yeah, setting up a reality-check website in which people can forward healthcare reform smears, so the smears can be debunked, just reeks of nazi germany.

michele bachmann or what.

yeah but they're asking for names. why do they need the names?

...are they asking for the names? i still don't see it. i can try sending them an anonymous message and see if they ask me for a follow up, if anyone has a chain e-mail i can use.

[saz]

no, they're not asking for names. rob just made that up.

[ToucanSpam]

Originally Posted by QueenAdrock

It's asking for voluntary information, that people are willing to give. It's not subversive tactics. It's just gleaning information from people who are willing to help him fight the smears. Their personal information will go into a database that he can later hit up for money. That's the way politics works.

As someone with a BA in European History and a Master's in Information Science, I can assure you this has no parallels to Nazi Germany or propaganda. I could give you a whole long diatribe explaining why comparing Obama's politely asking for voluntary information is completely different from the Gestapo, who did not have to answer to judicial review and were exempt from all German laws, but I have a feeling it would be an exercise in futility. I could see this being a concern if Obama was actually demanding information from the people and saying something like it's their "patriotic duty" to do give information. He's not. He's asking. You can refuse to give information, without having to worry about responding to the SS.

Yesssssssssss.

As someone with a nearly complete Masters degree in History (Canadian History, but believe me I've paid my dues with global history courses), I agree with QA entirely. There's nothing even remotely close to anything Hitler or the Nazi Party in this very innocent action. They aren't even asking for names, they're trying to help dispel the insane misinformation being produced by the same people who screech SOCIALISM and SECRET MUSLIM on a daily basis.

I tried very hard to swallow the whole discussion of Nazi tactics and understand this weird fear-mongering, but in the end I just threw up a little. I'm not suggesting that anyone here is entirely uneducated on the history of fascism, or even totalitarian regimes, but this kind of comparison is messed up and inconceivable. Even ignoring the complete misunderstanding of socialism, Marxism, fascism, Stalinism, and all the other political "isms", I can't wrap my hear around how people continue to compare leaders of today to someone like Adolf Hitler.

As someone who doesn't like Obama in the first place, you should have known better than to evoke the Nazis to demonstrate your point, Rob. I can understand your argument to the extent that the government could possibly be collecting data through seemingly innocent means. If it weren't for the very clear wording of the short statement in the original post (your post, by the way) I would be interested in the motivations of the government as well. However, as is, this needs to be taken at face value as a simple attempt to dispel wingnut allegations spread by spam mail.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by saz

no, they're not asking for names. rob just made that up.

only if you believe the propaganda