Vaccine Nation

[ms.peachy]

Forget it. There is no point to arguing science and logic with someone who is willfully apathetic and ignorant to both. Sadly such thickness means children's lives are put at risk, for no reason.

[fucktopgirl]

Originally Posted by ms.peachy

Forget it. There is no point to arguing science and logic with someone who is willfully apathetic and ignorant to both. Sadly such thickness means children's lives are put at risk, for no reason.

Personnal attack, well, i see the degree of your conscience...So much wisdom and maturity.

Let me throw back at you your insults, if you please

I feel the same way toward you, i think you are quite stupid and constipated. And then because people who cannot be critic of what the system impose us, and that have blind faith,kids health are at risk.

Tata !!

[ms.peachy]

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

Personnal attack, well, i see the degree of your conscience...So much wisdom and maturity.

Let me throw back at you your insults, if you please

I feel the same way toward you, i think you are quite stupid and constipated. And then because people who cannot be critic of what the system impose us, and that have blind faith,kids health are at risk.

Tata !!

You can take it as a personal attack if you like. I was referring to pretty much everyone who buys into the entire anti-vaccine nonsense, so if you want to be offended on everyone's behalf, go right ahead.

I never used the word 'stupid'. I said "willfully apathetic and ignorant." There is a difference. If you're not stupid, you'll be able to see that. And if you are not willfully apathetic and ignorant, you'll maybe educate yourself a bit about how vaccines actually work, and what herd immunity is, and why it matters.

[HAL 9000]

FTG, This will be my last post on the topic – it has gone on too long already. I am just trying to help you see the value of the scientific method as a tool for filtering data, I may well have failed at that but it was worth a shot. Just for clarification, I was not saying you are as bad as a drunk driver, my point was just that I am powerless to protect myself and my family from disease if others do not vaccinate (in case there was any misunderstanding).

I don’t know why you find the concept of Herd Immunity hard to believe, it seems a straight forward concept – as I do not know what the difficulty you have is, I will just post a link that may help you - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_modelling_in_epidemiology#The_mathema tics_of_mass_vaccination

This study shows that infection in vaccinated children increases when the level of vaccination in the population drops - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10404911

You say vaccines contain toxic and deadly substances and this is just does not seem to be true – I presume you mean Thiomersal which is neither toxic nor in vaccines (at least in the US and Europe). If you name the substance you are concerned about – I would be happy to help scan the scientific literature for more information.

You raised the question as to which one of us is brainwashed. The reason I know it is you and not me is that my information is filtered by the scientific method and represents the scientific consensus. I have demonstrated to you that anti-pharma studies are not suppressed and can be easily found in the literature which should help dissuade you from this idea that there is an enormous conspiracy at play.

The reason that it is you and not me that is buying into a conspiracy theory is that my view does not require a conspiracy. I am saying that thousands of independent scientists working in universities and labs around the world are doing good science, writing their theses and reporting their results while commenting on others as they always have done. You are saying that all these scientists are being paid, blackmailed or manipulated to change or hide their data whilst not reporting this enormous crime to the media or law enforcement. Do you see why it is your view that is the conspiracy and not mine? It is not just that you have a different view.

I am aware of lobbying and that it is a tool for companies to move regulation in their favour – I don’t like it either. It does not mean, however, that regulation is ineffective or that the scientific method cannot be trusted or that the pharmaceutical industry is poisoning people. By all means voice your concerns regarding this practice, just don’t go overboard and end up hurting yourself or your family.

Wikipedia seems to have a lot of good data on these issues – I would recommend it as a useful tool with a good overview. Here are some more links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_controversy

[fucktopgirl]

Anyway, enough of blablabla and blahhhh.

I have my opinion, you have yours. Fine. The end.

Oh and Misspeachy, your THICKNESS is lovely...

[fucktopgirl]

Check it out, you want science, you have , oh but it is on youtube, must be a biased source of info,right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5WNL...eature=related

[HAL 9000]

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

Check it out, you want science, you have , oh but it is on youtube, must be a biased source of info,right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5WNL...eature=related

This is why youtube is a poor source of information you would be better of reading the study itself (http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/leong.pdf). The video shows that mercury is harmful to brain cells – a fact which is not in dispute.

What is misleading is for this to be presented as being relevant to the vaccine debate. The ingredient in Thimerisal is not Mercury (Hg) but Ethylmercury (C2H5Hg+). They have similar sounding names but are not at all the same thing – for example Chlorine (Cl) is a highly toxic substance however Sodium Choride (SaCl) is table salt.

The video itself is not misleading but it has been given a title ‘Mercury in Vaccines Cause Brain Cell Damage’ which is very misleading as Thimerisal does not contain the substance used in the video. You will note that the narrator refers to Mercury in the context of tooth fillings not vaccines suggesting a legitimate video has been hijacked by an anti-vaccine nut.

And has I have pointed out repeatedly, Thimerisal is not used in vaccines anymore. You do not need to take my word for this – this information is freely available to everyone.

So as you can see, the youtube video has been mislabelled to mislead the viewer and I repeat the need to use caution on youtube.

Let us be clear – (Pure and toxic) Mercury is not in Thimerisal. Thimerisal is not in western vaccines.

[fucktopgirl]

^ help me??? Please, help yourself...

You guys are stuck on doctor wakefield. This is just one case of bollocks. .

HAl , i appreciate your devotion but, i prefer my source of info . It is not about a conspiracy, it is about some facts that are not always in the headlines news because it could harm the business of pharmaceutical companies. Some doctors are sell out some are not. A fact that some drugs and vaccins are not all that great in the end. You think medecine arrive at her apogee? No more mistakes can be made? Right...

The two last link i posted are quite good with real information. But that not enough for you. Because of the title of the website. OK then, no need to discuss here anymore if you are not able to debate information i put here.

http://www.therealessentials.com/vaccination-princ.html

INstead you are somewhat telling me that i am not critic enough and wise enough to see true info from wrong and you say i take this personally, not at all. I don't give a shit really what you think of me and my ideas.

To each their own. In my view , YOU are the one who is a bit sidetrack by just believing main stream media...

[HAL 9000]

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

You guys are stuck on doctor wakefield. This is just one case of bollocks.

True – but it is the case on which the whole anti-vac campaign is based. There is no other study that I am aware of supporting an autism/vaccine link.

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

Because of the title of the website. OK then, no need to discuss here anymore if you are not able to debate information i put here.

How can you seriously write that? How can say I did not address the info in your last two links – I did but I will repost it below for clarity!!!!!!!

That is not to say that there is not interesting material in these articles. The first accurately reports that Japan banned the MMR in 1993 because the strain of Mumps used was too virulent.

The UK also banned this MMR but instead replaced it with a less virulent version and did not have the problems experienced in Japan – you will note that in all cases the country responded by ensuring the populations safety, shows the controls work. No cover-up, no denial, no big pharma corruption - just fixing the problem as soon as its identified.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about this is this study http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/118735419/HTMLSTART

Which shows that the banning of MMR had no impact on autism rates. Again be clear – MMR does not cause Autism.

The second article quotes the underlying study at the bottom – here is the link

http://nejm.highwire.org/cgi/reprint/358/15/1580.pdf. It would be better if you could have posted this and or read it first as it would have made your post look more convincing and would have helped you understand the issue.

The basic premise is fair though – a strain of mumps exists against which the vaccine is not effective unless a further booster is given. Based on this info, what is the best response?

a)Remove the vaccine and expose all members of the population to all possible strains of mumps (as well as other diseases).
b)Administer a booster to the population
c)Research the new strain, develop your vaccine and introduce it to the population.

I would suggest that b and c are the better alternatives. This is also the recommendation of your links paper which states


Quote:
“A more effective mumps vaccine or changes in vaccine policy <additional boosters> may be needed to avert future outbreaks and achieve the elimination of mumps.”

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

INstead you are somewhat telling me that i am not critic enough and wise enough to see true info from wrong and you say i take this personally, not at all. I don't give a shit really what you think of me and my ideas.

It is not that you are not wise enough, it is that you do not understand the difference between the Scientific Method and Pseudoscience. You are not alone, this is probably true of most people.

http://www.therealessentials.com/vaccination-princ.html

Look – you just posted a link to a site that is selling smelly oil for medicinal purpose!!!! Are you seriously going to back Aromatherapy over evidence-based medicine!! Remember when I said this.

It is true that pharmaceuticals seek to make money, but that does not make them evil! They are heavily regulated which means all the treatments they (and the health professionals) offer have to undergo two tests (hence evidence based medicine).

1. They have to demonstrate that they offer a health benefit greater than that of a similarly administered placebo

2. They have to understand the side effects and benefits of any treatment.

The word 'alternative' in front of a health pill or supplement means it has FAILED TEST 1 and has not had to undergo test 2.

I wonder what tests have been done to show that 'Young Living essential Oils' are effective and cause no harm?

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

To each their own. In my view , YOU are the one who is a bit sidetrack by just believing main stream media

We are going in circles here – all through this thread I have tried to keep away from the media, I have posted links to the RAW Data – the pure facts, no opinion, no interpretation just real data. How can you possibly accuse me of this? I have shown that vaccines do not cause autism, that medical controls / regulation are effective and that it is the pseudoscientific community who is profiting off of the vulnerability of individuals by getting them to switch from clearly ineffective treatments from clearly effective ones. I have spelled it out for you as simply as I know how – I can do no more but hope some of this has stuck.

[EN[i]GMA]

Your mistake in arguing with her is thinking that her position is actually based on reason and evidence, and not, as it in fact is, on some petulant, individualist-born notion of a "freedom" to believe whatever it is happens to strike her fancy.

I mean, it's almost fascistic of you to force her to believe that autism isn't caused by vaccines, what with your evidence and reason and logic! How hegemonic of you (and how hegemonic of the facts!) to not align with these preconceived notions of the world is.

She chooses to believe that vaccines cause autism. That's all there is to it. She doesn't choose it FOR any reason, of course, simply because that's what she CHOOSES to believe. So your trying to convince her that she's wrong is really (from her perspective) an attempt to enslave her free-ranging, independent spirit.

This is about as far as I've psychoanalyzed the anti-vaccine movement.

[Documad]

Originally Posted by fucktopgirl

The two last link i posted are quite good with real information. But that not enough for you. Because of the title of the website. OK then, no need to discuss here anymore if you are not able to debate information i put here.

http://www.therealessentials.com/vaccination-princ.html

I'm still trying to figure out why you believe your websites. Anyone can start a website and post a personal opinion. That doesn't mean it's true. You believe anything that says what you want to hear and ignore the things you disagree with.

By the way, I'm watching PBS's documentary about polio again. It still scares me.

[Lyman Zerga]

shes french, give her a break