$7 an hour!!!!!!!

[what_the_doofus]

Does anyone else find it completely ridiculous that Kerry said he'd raise the minimum wage by 39%?

From that alone, I can safely say that the man knows nothing at all about economics.

[valvano]

you'll have to make $7 an hour min wage to afford all the tax hikes Kerry going to put on everybody to pay for all his promises......

[QueenAdrock]

$7 an hour really doesn't mean much nowadays. Where I live you can work at freakin' Burger King for $8.50/hour. It's hard to find a place that pays less than $7, but I'm sure you can find it if you try.

And how does it show he doesn't know anything about economics? Please, indulge me.

[what_the_doofus]

$7 an hour really doesn't mean much nowadays. Where I live you can work at freakin' Burger King for $8.50/hour. It's hard to find a place that pays less than $7, but I'm sure you can find it if you try.

And how does it show he doesn't know anything about economics? Please, indulge me.

raising minimum wage by 40% = huge inflation.

[Ace42]

Not necessarily. If the minimum wage was one cent, and it was raised to two cents (100%) would that cause rampant inflation? I think not. It's all in the fine tuning. But yes, inflation does always steal the poor's money.

[EN[i]GMA]

Nope. Wrong. Has inflation gone down since 68? No. But the actual amount the minimum wage could perchuse has gone down due to inflation. The minimum wage does not cause inflation. Why is it inflation has gone up while the mininum wage has stayed the same, at the exact same rate it went up after a wage increase? If people have more money to spend, they spend it, so the companies have more money to pay their employees. See? It's creating more money which ends up benifitting everyone.

[what_the_doofus]

GMA']Nope. Wrong. Has inflation gone down since 68? No. But the actual amount the minimum wage could perchuse has gone down due to inflation. The minimum wage does not cause inflation. Why is it inflation has gone up while the mininum wage has stayed the same, at the exact same rate it went up after a wage increase? If people have more money to spend, they spend it, so the companies have more money to pay their employees. See? It's creating more money which ends up benifitting everyone.

and the companies raise their prices to pay the workers, which causes....


Inflation!

[racer5.0stang]

Actually it will decrease jobs because employers will not be able to afford to pay someone w/ no experience $7hr. for a job that should only pay $5hr. So all the teenagers and people who quit high school will not have a job.

[ASsman]

Thank god these genius economists are working for the goverment, or we would be in deep shit.

("These" referring to you bunch of inbreds who think you know something about the most complex aspect of governance. Keep playing Sim City jagoffs)

[Ace42]

It's funny, all these arguments were used in the UK when minimum wage was introduced, and GUESS WHAT, it had no effect whatsoever apart from making the poorest people slightly less poorer. Maybe because it wasn't ENOUGH of a minimum wage to make a substantial difference, but there you go. "We've boasted record profits this year, BUT WE CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY AN EXTRA DOLLAR PER MAN SO WE'VE HAD TO LAY OFF 30 GUYS TO PAY FOR IT!!?!"

BS. Companies are not poor or scraping the bottom of the barrell. "Shit, due to minimum wage, we won't be able to afford that $15 mil mansion, Ronald. We'll have to lay off thousands of college kids to make up for it."

T&F. A McDonalds with less burger flippers sells less burgers less quickly and thus loses more money than it saves from laying someone off. If you were adding 30% to CEO's wages, then the company might not be able to afford it (like numerous UK banking firms having to make cuts to give the managers pay increases and getting into trouble for it) but come on, a few dollars? Jeez.

[EN[i]GMA]

and the companies raise their prices to pay the workers, which causes....


Inflation!

Not if they recieve increased revenue due the employees in general making more...

MONEY!!

Come on. You don't know much about economics do you? The amount of money were talking here isn't that substantial anyway. If a company needs 8 burger flippers it's going to higher them. If they could get by with 7 they would do it if it saved them $1.50 or $10.50.

[hellojello]

" In 1996...Disney CEO Eisner received over $US185 million in pay and stock options…. It would take a Haitian worker sewing Disney garments 156 years to earn what Eisner was paid in an hour…. For every pair of Pocahontas pajamas sold in the US for $11.97, a Disney worker received just seven cents. " - MacAdam, 1998, The New Internationalist, pg. 308.

[Ace42]

Game set and match.

[Bob]

in my state (CT), $7 an hour would actually be a pay cut for someone earning the current minimum wage.

[Ace42]

There's people on the pitch, they think it's all over. It is now.

[catch a bad one]

haha you yankees suck.

he should LOWER min wage to 3 cruddy dollars an hour!

[racer5.0stang]

GMA']Not if they recieve increased revenue due the employees in general making more...

MONEY!!

Come on. You don't know much about economics do you? The amount of money were talking here isn't that substantial anyway. If a company needs 8 burger flippers it's going to higher them. If they could get by with 7 they would do it if it saved them $1.50 or $10.50.

An increase in revenue would increase the price per item which would in the long run take away that extra $2 the person was earning. Unfortunatly, the people who are already above the minimum wage will only be affected by one side of this.

[D_Raay]

An increase in revenue would increase the price per item which would in the long run take away that extra $2 the person was earning. Unfortunatly, the people who are already above the minimum wage will only be affected by one side of this.
You are talking out of your ass with nothing to back it up.

Everything has gotten more expensive in Bush's term without a minimum wage hike.
How about those wonderful tax cuts that have already been payed back in gas and milk?

[racer5.0stang]

You are talking out of your ass with nothing to back it up.

Everything has gotten more expensive in Bush's term without a minimum wage hike.
How about those wonderful tax cuts that have already been payed back in gas and milk?

Since the minimum wage varies by state, I would say that you can thank your state gov. officials for that.

[D_Raay]

Since the minimum wage varies by state, I would say that you can thank your state gov. officials for that.
I don't work for minimum wage. I did get a tax cut which I had spent before I realized that gas prices would double and the price of milk would go from 2.19 to 3.04. Besides the fact that my health insurance has been raised 4 times now over the last 3 years. Used to pay 175 a month now I am at 300.

[paulk]

Instead of leveling the playing field, raising minimum wage would spread an even layer of dirt over it (so to speak) and everyone remains on the same level relative to each other. You may earn more, but ultimately the cost of living will go up. And that's no ass-talk. And yes, multimillion-dollar corporations can afford a few extra cents, but they will still adjust the prices of their shit to offset for that, won't they?

Another thing: as for few jobs being affected by an increase because there aren't that many minimum wage jobs out there, my friend was telling me that unions will also renegotiate their salaries so that they remain a certain level above minimum wage. So the effect would be much further reaching.

[D_Raay]

Instead of leveling the playing field, raising minimum wage would spread an even layer of dirt over it (so to speak) and everyone remains on the same level relative to each other. You may earn more, but ultimately the cost of living will go up. And that's no ass-talk. And yes, multimillion-dollar corporations can afford a few extra cents, but they will still adjust the prices of their shit to offset for that, won't they?

Another thing: as for few jobs being affected by an increase because there aren't that many minimum wage jobs out there, my friend was telling me that unions will also renegotiate their salaries so that they remain a certain level above minimum wage. So the effect would be much further reaching.
You may earn more, but ultimately the cost of living will go up.
The problem with this is paulk, we aren't earning more while the cost of living is going up.

[Ace42]

And yes, multimillion-dollar corporations can afford a few extra cents, but they will still adjust the prices of their shit to offset for that, won't they?

Depends. Making any alternation to a retail process has its own costs (in memos circulated to increase the prices on lables, checking to make sure all outlets charge the new prices, altering posters to represent the new prices, pulling all TV ads (they cost a bundle) running, etc) and if that is more than simply *paying people a pittance more* then they won't do it.

[EN[i]GMA]

Exactly. Cost of living going up isn't tied to minimum wage anyway.

[what_the_doofus]

You may earn more, but ultimately the cost of living will go up.
The problem with this is paulk, we aren't earning more while the cost of living is going up.

but you aren't earning more.... it's all relative. That's like saying that I am 25x richer if i have $5000 in the bank and a guy in the 50's had $200.

[Ace42]

Read what he said, the words in it...

[Ali]

and the companies raise their prices to pay the workers, which causes....


Inflation!

Fuck you are DUMB. Companies don't raise their prices to pay workers, companies raise prices and lay off workers to increase their share price and pay their stockholders (the biggest of whom are the Directors).

HELLOOOO! McFLY! ANYBODY HOME?!?

[Ali]

"We've boasted record profits this year, BUT WE CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY AN EXTRA DOLLAR PER MAN SO WE'VE HAD TO LAY OFF 30 GUYS TO PAY FOR IT!!?!"

It's the American Way, dude. Take GM for example. It seeks out and aggressively takes over profitable companies in other countries, imposes its own management policies on the new aquisitions, rendering them less efficient, uses the decreased profitablity as an excuse to fire most of the well-paid, highly experienced employees and hires a few cheap idiots to do the work. Result, massive unemployment problems and labour unrest in the host (as in Parasite) country while the greedy, fat, slimy, evil fukn corporate fatcats rake in the profits and then dump all their shares and move to another corporation or retire just before the whole thing goes Bang, taking down all the once-profitable companies it swallowed up in the first place.

Evil. Truly and utterly evil. They should be shot.

[maddoctorx]

Raising minimum wage would not have to cause inflation if the upper one percent or what I like to call our corporate slave masters where willing to make just a little bit less money and settle for just 12 house boats instead of 50. Of course I don't think that will happen which is unfourtante. 7 dollars and hour by the way is not a living wage and not everyone that works jobs that pay that are students or kids living with there mothers. I know its not going to happen any time soon but I think its moraly repugnent to have the bottom of our living standards to be non livable. I don't think someone working at McDonalds should be making hundreds of thousands of dollars but they should be able to pay there bills and save a moderatorate amount of money for emergencies.

[IceGargoylle]

Thank god these genius economists are working for the goverment, or we would be in deep shit.

("These" referring to you bunch of inbreds who think you know something about the most complex aspect of governance. Keep playing Sim City jagoffs)


ZINGGGG!! well said.

[what_the_doofus]

Fuck you are DUMB. Companies don't raise their prices to pay workers, companies raise prices and lay off workers to increase their share price and pay their stockholders (the biggest of whom are the Directors).

HELLOOOO! McFLY! ANYBODY HOME?!?

How greedy businesses are isn't what I'm talking about. the thing that you all seem to forget is that the money to pay the extra 40% has to come from somewhere.

[Ace42]

Get more illegal immigrants to come in, then you can over-charge them for food and services, and use the profit to give your own work-force a fair minimum wage. Or is that a bit too close to home to exploit foreigners?

[what_the_doofus]

Get more illegal immigrants to come in, then you can over-charge them for food and services, and use the profit to give your own work-force a fair minimum wage. Or is that a bit too close to home to exploit foreigners?
I'm questioning Kerry's "plan". what argument are you trying to make? If he says he's going to raise the minimum wage by 40%, then he needs to show where that money is gonna come from. I'm pretty sure he isn't going to come out and say ripping off illegal immigrants.

[ASsman]

where that money is gonna come from.
From the deep pockets of big business?

I'm pretty sure he isn't going to come out and say ripping off illegal immigrants.
You think ?

[what_the_doofus]

anyone want to answer?

[Bob]

i think he just did

[bdavid]

Raising the minimum wage is a short term fix. This Saiyan prince guy- if you think different you're just kidding yourself. The market will always adjust itself, there's no way around it. You can talk about how much CEOs make and all that crap but it doesn't mean a damn thing. It's a market economy and raising the minimum wage simply causes the market to react. You can try to justify it how you like but that's the fact.

For those of you comparing other countries market conditions- it's not really relevant.

[what_the_doofus]

Raising the minimum wage is a short term fix. This Saiyan prince guy- if you think different you're just kidding yourself. The market will always adjust itself, there's no way around it. You can talk about how much CEOs make and all that crap but it doesn't mean a damn thing. It's a market economy and raising the minimum wage simply causes the market to react. You can try to justify it how you like but that's the fact.

For those of you comparing other countries market conditions- it's not really relevant.

Thanks for breaking it down.

[D_Raay]

Raising the minimum wage is a short term fix. This Saiyan prince guy- if you think different you're just kidding yourself. The market will always adjust itself, there's no way around it. You can talk about how much CEOs make and all that crap but it doesn't mean a damn thing. It's a market economy and raising the minimum wage simply causes the market to react. You can try to justify it how you like but that's the fact.

For those of you comparing other countries market conditions- it's not really relevant.
Just like the gas prices has caused the market to react?

[Ace42]

Raising the minimum wage is a short term fix. This Saiyan prince guy- if you think different you're just kidding yourself. The market will always adjust itself, there's no way around it.

So you're saying that the market will magically change itself so that the cheapest way of adapting to the world's conditions becomes less practical than the more expensive way of doing it, JUST TO LAY OFF PEOPLE?

BS.

You can talk about how much CEOs make and all that crap but it doesn't mean a damn thing.

Of course, NOTHING means a damn thing, except for the abstract concept that the market is sentient and will operate *precisely how you say* irrespective of convention or logic or even common sense.

It's a market economy and raising the minimum wage simply causes the market to react. All that means is "if you change the market, the market won't stay the same" - was that *really* worth posting? Nuh. Now if you want to actually talk fact, please post something more substantial than "nuh-uh"

For those of you comparing other countries market conditions- it's not really relevant.

Yeah, of course not, because America doesn't import 80% of Mexico's goods, or rely heavily on China's produce, or need Canada's water, or import / export anything. Global market, whassat? And of course, there is something secretely different about AMERICAN capitalism, which means it operates totally different to all other historical precedent!

Pshaw.

[bdavid]

All that shit you just posted- So what? It doesn't change anything. If you want to simplify it to the point - "If you change market conditions the market will change" go ahead. It doesn't mean that increasing the minimum wage is a short term fix. You can yell and scream like the crybaby you seem to be. I realize you have predisposed notions of capitalism, conservatives vs. liberals but get a grip. And so what if we import/export goods to and from other countries? The market conditions of said countries are substantially different than our own. Are you making the point that the economic conditions of Mexico are the same as the US because we import/export items?

No the market isn't 'magic'. Its the market.

Man dude, you are a serious crybaby.

[Ace42]

All that shit you just posted- So what?

All that shit I just posted would've made sense to someone whose parents aren't blood relations to each other.

[ASsman]

I'm afraid he didn't understand that either.

[bdavid]

I understand you want to fit a square peg in a round hole and add a bunch of unneeded bullshit into simple economic theory.

And for that dick up there who compared gas prices to minimum wage- Huh?

Assman gets the dick. Gayain prince gets the dick.

[Ali]

add a bunch of unneeded bullshit into simple economic theory. Simple is the way you explain it, dude. Complex is what it is.

[EN[i]GMA]

I understand you want to fit a square peg in a round hole and add a bunch of unneeded bullshit into simple economic theory.

And for that dick up there who compared gas prices to minimum wage- Huh?

Assman gets the dick. Gayain prince gets the dick.

Gayain prince? He sure as hell burned you Ace! Let me try! bGAYvid! What a cunning linguist I am! Deft as fuck ain't I?

[bdavid]

Really?

Tell you what enigma- this is for you.....ace.

From:

"The Cost of a 'Living Wage'
We can't ignore law of supply and demand"

By N. Gregory Mankiw 6/24/01

"the adverse effects of a high minimum wage go way beyond its impact on total employment. In addition to reducing the amount of labor demanded, a high minimum wage compounds the problem by increasing the amount of labor supplied.
In other words, not only are there fewer jobs available for unskilled workers, but more people apply for those jobs. Studies have found that increases in the minimum wage encourage some teenagers to drop out of school earlier than they otherwise would. These teenagers take jobs that would go to unskilled adults, making it harder for those adults to make the transition from welfare to work.
The case against a high minimum wage is even more compelling once one realizes that it is not the only way to address the hardship of the working poor.
A better weapon to fight poverty is the Earned Income Tax Credit, a provision of the income tax system that supplements the income of low-wage workers. Like any spending program, this policy has the cost of higher taxes on everyone else. But those costs are smaller than the unemployment that results from high minimum wage."

N. Gregory Mankiw is an economice professor at Harvard University and author of "Principles of Economics

http://post.economics.harvard.edu


I guess I got served when I made the ridiculous statement that raising the minimum wage has an effect on the market. I didn't go so far as to say that it has an ADVERSE effect. Simply that it has one. But geniuses like Gaiyan Prince and enigma are apparently so blinded by partisan politics and closed-minded hatred of those who's opinions differ from their own are quick to throw a bunch of trivial, rhetoric into any argument. I guessHarvard professors are retarded because it sounds to me like this one believes a high minimum wage does in fact have an effect on the market.

Gas face given

[STANKY808]

A better weapon to fight poverty is the Earned Income Tax Credit, a provision of the income tax system that supplements the income of low-wage workers. Like any spending program, this policy has the cost of higher taxes on everyone else. But those costs are smaller than the unemployment that results from high minimum wage."


So you are advocating for higher taxes?

[bdavid]

??????

[STANKY808]

??????


I didn't think it was that hard. In defending your point that higher minimum wages have an adverse effect on the market, you posted the article in which this sentence is found;

"Like any spending program, this policy has the cost of higher taxes on everyone else."

So instead of increasing the minimum wage, are you suggesting an overall tax hike is preferable?

[EN[i]GMA]

Sure owned me. Or not.

Is that the best you can do?

[Ace42]

Tell you what enigma- this is for you.....ace.

"the adverse effects of a high minimum wage go way beyond its impact on total employment.

A "high minimum wage" != "an increase in minimum wage"

Suggesting that the statement "A high minimum wage" of an unspecified amount equates to the current proposed increase is a falacy.

I guessHarvard professors are retarded because it sounds to me like this one believes a high minimum wage does in fact have an effect on the market.

No-one disputed that a "high" minimum wage has an adverse effect. But the increase proposed would not make the minimum wage "high" - it is a relatively small amount.

In the US the minimum wage has not been increased in line with inflation for 7 years. So, over the last 7 years, the minimum wage has been physically worth less and less.

Increasing the minimum wage will thus be "putting it back to what it was worth" not necessarily "increasing its worth."

So, considering that companies used to be able to afford the minimum wage perfectly fine, and considering the value of the minimum wage has gone down, even the Harvard professor will not disagree that it can be adjusted to be retrospectively inline with inflation without ANY adverse effects on the market (or rather, the markets as they stood 7 years ago, before Bush's current deficet increase)

So no, Harvard professors aren't retarded, but you are too retarded to understand what they mean.

[marsdaddy]

I apologize if this has already been covered, but I only got a few posts into this thread and wanted to clear up some confusion. Now, I'm not currently an economist, but I did play one for 4 years of college -- that degree sure comes in handy!

Up until the late 70's, it was generally believed there was a negative correlation between inflation and unemployment that was unbreakable. It was also believed they each had a natural state in a healthy economy -- if I remember correctly it was 6% for unemployment, and 4% for inflation. If one went up, the other went down. Inflation was extremely high in the early 70's, then again in the late 70's/early 80's, and unemployment was not particularly low. This was the first chink in the earlier theory. Inflation has stayed at a low rate since the early 80's, thus further disproving any earlier theories about it's natural state. Milton Friedman won a Nobel Prize for figuring this shit out in the mid 70's -- he's a former Bechtel Board member, too.

Also, I've never heard of a correlation, per se, between raising the minimum wage, and inflation. This "expecation theory" regarding inflation, would probably not be relevant as I don't think the minimum wage earners have enough impact on the economy to skew inflation. Unless you think raising the minimum wage, will raise ALL wages, in which case, Friedman's theory would still apply -- that it would smooth out over a longer term picture.

Now, I might make the argument, that if the minimum wage were raised, these people could afford to pay for more basic services, like food, housing, heath care, and maybe even have a little disposable income left over. This might actually have multiple effects on the economy. First, if the poorest workers could afford to pay for basic services, the government might be able to use the money it uses to assist these people in other areas -- job training, maybe, thus increasing their earning power? Second, if the poorest workers had disposable income, they might be able to contribute to consumer spending.

Nah, nevermind. Stick with the original premise if you must...

[paulk]

Oh wow, someone who isn't talking entirely out of his ass.

Unless you think raising the minimum wage, will raise ALL wages, in which case, Friedman's theory would still apply -- that it would smooth out over a longer term picture.

But I think that raising the minimum wage will make unions renogotiate workers' salaries.

[marsdaddy]

But I think that raising the minimum wage will make unions renogotiate workers' salaries.Probably so. Sadly, there are less and less union jobs so the effect would be small -- but still it would have an effect.

In this case, companies would raise prices but workers' relative buying power would go up, too. Net it would probably be a wash.

Of course, unions are on contracts, each contract has a different expiration date, most unions are fighting to keep healthcare affordable -- in other words, this effect would not happen all at once, to each union. Small amounts, over years, maybe.

[EN[i]GMA]

Excellent mars.