The White House is asking that you report dissenting views

[RobMoney$]

Facts are Stubborn Things (http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/)


There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov (flag@whitehouse.gov).




I am so interested in seeing what you guys come up with to defend this one.

[yeahwho]

Facts are Stubborn Things (http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/)





I am so interested in seeing what you guys come up with to defend this one.

It's a smart idea, whatever nefarious activities could happen as a result of the current panic tactics should be anticipated and dealt with. It's called covering your bases.

Take for instance that MILFord academy bob is setting up for Moms going back to school, you know, I know, most of the board knows he just wants to get laid. But those dumb fucks on the Pearl Jam board are sending their Moms there in droves, much to bobs delight.

[RobMoney$]

It's a smart idea, whatever nefarious activities could happen as a result of the current panic tactics should be anticipated and dealt with. It's called covering your bases.


Now pretend this is 1933 and you live in Germany.

Frankly, the mere mention of reporting dissent to the gov't scares the crap out of me, and is should scare the crap out of everyone.

[Bob]

Facts are Stubborn Things (http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/)





I am so interested in seeing what you guys come up with to defend this one.

there's dissent, and then there's outright lies. something like "government health care will raise costs and reduce efficiency" is dissent. that's good. that needs to be discussed. i don't think anyone wants to squelch that. on the other hand, something like "government health care will euthanize the elderly" or "my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care," is misinformation, and when ridiculous shit like that starts infiltrating peoples' minds below the radar and festers into the public discourse, it's very, uh, unproductive, to say the least.

if people don't like public health care then they're entitled to that opinion. it is definitely a big issue, and there will be benefits and there will be burdens and legitimate questions about the weight of those benefits and burdens definitely need to be discussed. but to add to the "burden" side of the scale by disguising outright lies as legitimate issues is a dangerous thing.

i can't speak for the white house, but if i had to guess, that's the kind of thing they want to address. if people are spreading lies about the consequences of public healthcare, then the government wants to be able to address it before it gains too much momentum.

of course, i could be way off. obama could very well want to send the secret service into peoples' homes at night and lock them away in secret prisons to get his euthanasiacare bill passed without opposition, that's a possibility.

[Bob]

Now pretend this is 1933 and you live in Germany.

whoops! didn't see this! now i feel like an idiot for actually trying to debate this with you

make up your mind, rob. does obama want to turn this country into north korea or nazi germany?

[yeahwho]

Now pretend this is 1933 and you live in Germany.

Frankly, the mere mention of reporting dissent to the gov't scares the crap out of me, and is should scare the crap out of everyone.

If they ever decide to have a "Jump to Illogical Conclusions" events category in the Olympics I'll sponsor you. Your avatar is perfect.

[RobMoney$]

The point is that we don't know what they plan on doing with the list of people they recieve that hold dissenting views.

Maybe this is benign - I really hope it is. If that's the case, don't you think that this is a poorly thought out proposition, sure to receive such a response?

I find it mind-boggling that this administration can not mine this data themselves without being sent tattling e-mails. I thought Obama and his henchmen were all geniuses, yet apparently they are incapable of using a search engine.

Since when does combating disinformation = asking people to rat on each other?

[RobMoney$]

If they ever decide to have a "Jump to Illogical Conclusions" events category in the Olympics I'll sponsor you. Your avatar is perfect.

First they came for all those who disagreed with Obama's healthcare program...

and I said nothing.

[kaiser soze]

Now pretend this is 1933 and you live in Germany.

Frankly, the mere mention of reporting dissent to the gov't scares the crap out of me, and is should scare the crap out of everyone.

I don't agree with this as well, but I'm curious....Your thoughts on warrant-less wiretapping?

[yeahwho]

First they came for all those who disagreed with Obama's healthcare program...

and I said nothing.

Do you ever think that just maybe your being played by all this hysteria? This isn't about Nazism, This isn't about socialism... millions of Americans actually voted in Obama for a health plan much less compromised than the one being tallied about today.

We voted to have healthcare addressed. This isn't something being forced down our throats. It is what was advertised. Health care for each and every American citizen.

To stop the fucked up scams that have wreaked havoc on countless numbers of citizens due to the corporate health industries bottomline.

Is it amnesia the current crop of dissenters are suffering from?

[RobMoney$]

I don't agree with this as well, but I'm curious....Your thoughts on warrant-less wiretapping?


Con.

Along with things such as the Gov't being able to see what library books you've checked out, and being called a crazy loon for going to a town hall and disagreeing with the proposed healthcare plan.

[RobMoney$]

Do you ever think that just maybe your being played by all this hysteria? This isn't about Nazism, This isn't about socialism... millions of Americans actually voted in Obama for a health plan much less compromised than the one being tallied about today.

We voted to have healthcare addressed. This isn't something being forced down our throats. It is what was advertised. Health care for each and every American citizen.

To stop the fucked up scams that have wreaked havoc on countless numbers of citizens due to the corporate health industries bottomline.

Is it amnesia the current crop of dissenters are suffering from?

This thread isn't really about the healthcare plan though.
It's about the white house asking for you to report the name of dissenters.

[Bob]

The point is that we don't know what they plan on doing with the list of people they recieve that hold dissenting views.

no, i suppose we don't. in your opinion, what is the worst case scenario? what do you expect obama might do?

I find it mind-boggling that this administration can not mine this data themselves without being sent tattling e-mails. I thought Obama and his henchmen were all geniuses, yet apparently they are incapable of using a search engine.

they're going after rumors spread through chain e-mails and casual conversations. people don't send these e-mails to or casually converse about such things with the white house. how would they "mine this data themselves"? the blogosphere is an infinite realm, it could take decades to find what they're looking for.

Since when does combating disinformation = asking people to rat on each other?

i don't think they want people to rat on people, in the sense that they're interested in actually going after the people. to me, it sounds like they just want to know what the rumors are, so they can bring them to light and address them.

again. i could be wrong. they could be building a camp as we speak. i promise i'll eat my words if that turns out to be the case

First they came for all those who disagreed with Obama's healthcare program...

and I said nothing.

please tell me that was a joke. please tell me you're not legitimately comparing this to the holocaust. please. i want to respect your opinion on this, so badly, but i just can't if you're unironically doing this

i mean, apart from the nazi comparisons i don't entirely disagree with you, and i don't think you're unreasonable to find this suspicious - it is a really weird thing for the federal government to ask people to do, but the holocaust, rob? the holocaust?

[yeahwho]

Con.

Along with things such as the Gov't being able to see what library books you've checked out, and being called a crazy loon for going to a town hall and disagreeing with the proposed healthcare plan.

When does crazy loon become appropriate in your paranoid thought process?

[yeahwho]

This thread isn't really about the healthcare plan though.
It's about the white house asking for you to report the name of dissenters.

So far every argument you've had about healthcare has nothing to do with healthcare. You have no real answers, just fucked up scenarios that stall any progress what so ever on helping millions of under-insured, unemployed and real sick fellow citizens who desperately need to be addressed.

The current health insurance industry just fucking doesn't care about these people. Do you not understand what is happening to your fellow citizens or is it you just fucking don't care to address this?

[RobMoney$]

If George Bush did this all hell would be breaking loose. The media would be in an uproar. John Stewart would be parading everyone he could find that was a victim of Joe McCarthy or anything similar on to his show.
But this administration doing it?
Why, they just want to make sure the truth is getting out.

Bob, couldn't Obama just combat disinformation by saying
"OK, here's the bill. We're gonna post it here at healthplan.gov. Go ahead, look it over the next couple weeks. We're not trying to hide anything from you. In a month, we're going to vote on it. Thanks."

instead of saying

"Tell us these lies (which may or may not be lies) people have been telling you."

Remember the campaign promises of Government transparancy? Didn't Obama promise that he was going to post bills online before they were voted on in the name of transparancy?
Perhaps they don't want you to read the bill because if you did, instead of 58% of the people disagreeing with it, 80% would disagree with it.


...and don't think for one second that Obama isn't putting out a bit of his own disinformation on the issue.

[RobMoney$]

So far every argument you've had about healthcare has nothing to do with healthcare. You have no real answers, just fucked up scenarios that stall any progress what so ever on helping millions of under-insured, unemployed and real sick fellow citizens who desperately need to be addressed.

The current health insurance industry just fucking doesn't care about these people. Do you not understand what is happening to your fellow citizens or is it you just fucking don't care to address this?


I don't know how else to 'splain it to you?
I'm not trying to make a statement about healthcare, I'm raising the issue of Obama becoming the new Joe McCarthy.

[Bob]

do you really think that posting the bill online would help? if i'm not mistaken, it's over 1200 pages. have you ever read a 1200 page bill? i once read a 50 page bill for a project and that shit is dense. i mean, i went to school for 3 years and paid over $120,000 to learn how to read that kind of stuff (that's $100 per page), and even i don't really have the patience or mental stamina to do it. i don't think that the breed of people who buy into the "death panel" rumors are going to be bothered to read the text of the bill or be soothed by it.

i'm not going to deny that obama's reneged on his campaign promises (an unprecedented thing for a president to do, i'm sure) or that he's guilty of "politics as usual" but do you not think you're blowing this a little out of proportion? i mean the holocaust, rob. the holocaust.

[RobMoney$]

A fine point you raise about the length of these bills, and the fact that no one is reading them, including the people we elected to vote on them.
Look no further than the stimulus bill that was signed.
When these banks started paying out million dollar bonuses to execs after they recieved the stimulus, your elected politicians suddenly became shocked.
If they had bothered to actaully read the bill, they would have seen that those bonuses were included in the proposal.


Which is why if I were commissioner of the world I would advocate for "The Brevity Amendment" (http://brainshavings.com/2009/06/imagine-a-brevity-amendment-to.html) to the Constitution.



No law, bill, resolution, or any act of Congress shall exceed 2000 words, including all footnotes, amendments and signatures.
Congress shall not vote on any item longer than that. Each item requiring a vote shall be read aloud in it's entirety in session to a majority of members.
Those not in attendance may not vote on the item.

[RobMoney$]

We Want You (http://brainshavings.com/2009/08/join-the-obamacare-snitch-squa.html)
to snitch on your neighbor.

[DroppinScience]

When the Obama death squad puts you in their gulags, we'll storm the impenetrable fortress (a la Clint Eastwood in "Where Eagles Dare") and rescue you! (y)

[Bob]

We Want You (http://brainshavings.com/2009/08/join-the-obamacare-snitch-squa.html)
to snitch on your neighbor.

you didn't answer my question, and i really am curious - in your opinion, what is the worst case scenario in regards to what will happen to the people who get reported?

i don't like phrasing the question that way - i firmly believe that the white house is more interested in the rumors than they are in the people spreading them, but i can't think of any better way to write it. regardless, the question stands - what do you think, in the worst case scenario, will happen to them?

[RobMoney$]

Well, who can say where it could lead, but I definitely could see it being the first step towards criminalizing dissent or disinformation. It also has the effect of turning ordinary citizens into the eyes and ears of the administration, also something that gives me reason for pause.

And who gets to decide what is just dissent, and what is disinformation? How much are we going to be spending to pay people to go rifiling through endless amounts of fowarded e-mails, all in the name of propogating Obama's own message. It just seems like yet another massive waste of time and money.

I guess it's the same reason I don't want to give my neighbor a machine gun. I doubt he'd do anything with it, but we never know until it's done, and he doesn't need it.

[kaiser soze]

It will not be the first step towards criminalizing dissent. You know how many people were rounded up, detained, arrested, injured, and flagged as terrorists for dissent during bush's reign?

now you're paying attention

[QueenAdrock]

I'm raising the issue of Obama becoming the new Joe McCarthy.

I could have sworn that Joe McCarthy hated socialism, though!

Either way, it's nothing new. It's what his administration did during the primaries, too. John Kerry ignored the smear campaigns against him in 2004, which was a bad move. In 2008, Obama started http://www.fightthesmears.com/ where you can report the latest smear you've heard. If enough of one smear has been reported, then they come out with a response to it. He's not waiting until it becomes a huge news sensation, he wants to clear up any misinformation when it comes out (thus him asking people to report it once they've heard it -- doesn't get any newer than that). Check out the site, he has responses and "get the facts" to many well-known smears against him. I'm assuming that's what he'll do with the health insurance rumors he gets sent to him, too.

Not to mention, he asks EVERYONE to report what was heard, so he can help dispel rumors. His base of liberals are going to be the ones who report rumors they've heard, and he's not going to do anything with that list. Knocking down his constituents doors and demanding that they tell him who said what to them would not help his re-election, don't you think? It's ridiculous to compare this to Nazi Germany, the Gestapo, or Information Repression.

Furthermore, Obama is anti-censorship. He believes in the freedom of speech, not censoring violent video games (rather, he's for parents helping their children make decisions), believes in freedom of reading whatever materials you want. For the record, Obama also agrees with you on library records: "I want to work with you to ensure that libraries continue to be sanctuaries of learning, where we are free to read and consider what we please without the fear that Big Brother may be peering over our shoulders to find out what we’re up to."

I'm not worried.

[kaiser soze]

As if tattle tails never ran to a Republican White House

Right now the Conservative PR movement is so viral (literally), Obama is looking for a way to counter it. This is also a W.H. that is receiving unprecedented amounts of threats. They are keeping on their toes as they should be.

[Bob]

Well, who can say where it could lead, but I definitely could see it being the first step towards criminalizing dissent or disinformation.

really? i'm not an expert but i'm pretty sure the first amendment would prevent that. even the wise, proud latina woman would probably be willing to reverse that conviction

i really desperately want to pick your mind here rob - in your opinion, give me your worst case scenario, your most on-the-limb speculation. what do you think could happen to people who get reported?

[RobMoney$]

It will not be the first step towards criminalizing dissent. You know how many people were rounded up, detained, arrested, injured, and flagged as terrorists for dissent during bush's reign?

now you're paying attention


Oh, you must be alluding to the Patroit Act.
Obama continued that too.
Illegal wiretapping is fine with him.

Didn't like this kind of shit under Bush, and I don't like under this guy either.

[Documad]

I'll bet they don't do anything with the emails they get except possibly thank the sender for sending it in (and hit him/her up with a request for money). The point of the thing is keep up their list of potential donors/supporters--and to make people feel like they're doing something to help, even though it's something silly like forwarding an email.

Rob, I think you must have gotten on some scary email lists or you joined some other message board that's stoking up the paranoia. Still, I think it's a good idea to remember that whenever you receive or send a wacky email, there's a record of it out there, whether or not your friends forward it to the white house. That's a fact of life, even if the Stasi aren't going to round us up.

[RobMoney$]

really? i'm not an expert but i'm pretty sure the first amendment would prevent that. even the wise, proud latina woman would probably be willing to reverse that conviction

i really desperately want to pick your mind here rob - in your opinion, give me your worst case scenario, your most on-the-limb speculation. what do you think could happen to people who get reported?

I don't know what to tell you, Bob.
Maybe the government will do nothing with people's names.


All I know is that history has shown us things like this are never a good idea.


At what point does the government incrementaly taking away your freedom become too much? What line is it for you?

[QueenAdrock]

Oh, you must be alluding to the Patroit Act.
Obama continued that too.
Illegal wiretapping is fine with him.

Didn't like this kind of shit under Bush, and I don't like under this guy either.

Yeah, Hillary voted for re-authorization, even after she came out saying it was crap. Both Hillary and Obama said that they didn't agree with the impeding of civil liberties, but they agreed with other provisions of the act and it was worth it to them to give up a few civil liberties for the overall security that the bill provided. The Democrats who refused to vote for re-authorization of the Patriot Act didn't have a realistic shot at the presidency last year.

Either way, I agree that the bill is bullshit. I don't want to give up any of my liberties for any security. That's the beginning of a snowball that shouldn't have been created.

At what point does the government incrementaly taking away your freedom become too much?

As for that...they're not taking away any freedom. They're asking for you to volunteer information, if you know anything. They're not demanding. You're offering your name, your email address, your information you provide. They're not forcing it out of you; you're doing it under your own free will. If you don't trust the government with that kind of information, then you don't report anything.

[Documad]

Of course people have the freedom to spam the internet with their nonsense about Obama putting together panels of government doctors to decide that your disabled child will be murdered by the government (I'm looking at you Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin). But those people have to willing to live with the consequences of being called on their shit. Of course they won't be rounded up by the police. But Obama's people certainly have the right to gauge what sort of lies are out there and speak out against them. This is all public stuff.

I'd personally never send an email to Obama. I'm sick to death of him hitting me up for cash. If I got that sort of crazy email about healthcare, I'd send it right back to the moron who sent it to me and embarrass the shit out of them. But then I honestly don't know anyone that stupid so I'm unlikely to get the sort of email they're looking for.

[Bob]

I don't know what to tell you, Bob.
Maybe the government will do nothing with people's names.



you can tell me what you think could possibly happen to people who get reported, like i keep asking you! come on rob, you invoked the holocaust, you can't back out now by saying "i don't know what to tell you"

once you play the nazi card you can't play the modesty card, that's the rule. i really want to know. worst case scenario. someone forwards sarah palin's "death panel" blog to a relative and gets reported for it. what, in the most unlikely dystopian future (with an articulable tie to reality) you can imagine, could possibly happen to that person?

you're making this vague (yet remarkably ominous) prediction about how the obama administration is going to make a list of people who disagree with its policies and...do...something...to...them and you can't just stop there, it isn't fair, you're absolutely killing me, you just have to tell me what that something is! what, in your biggest fear of fears is going to happen?

a blacklist?
waterboarding?
electrodes to the balls?
secret guantanamo?
a beer in the whitehouse?

make a prediction, i'm begging you. assume that you've convinced me to be scared, tell me what i'm supposed to be scared of

[Michelle*s_Farm]

make up your mind, rob. does obama want to turn this country into north korea or nazi germany?

There is a third option. Obama bears a striking resemblance to Damien from the prophetic '81 film The Final Conflict:

http://www.deadlantern.com/reviews/2008/10/omen3.jpg

[yeahwho]

I don't know how else to 'splain it to you?
I'm not trying to make a statement about healthcare, I'm raising the issue of Obama becoming the new Joe McCarthy.

It would be fun to have Obama question Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly and a slew of other right wing pundits. Accusing them of being the Worlds most "hammiest" crybabies.

Obamanism. There I'll coin it and watch me never recieve any credit for that term ever.

[yeahwho]

once you play the nazi card you can't play the modesty card, that's the rule. i really want to know.

lol, you can never go back after that.

[yeahwho]

I'd personally never send an email to Obama. I'm sick to death of him hitting me up for cash. If I got that sort of crazy email about healthcare, I'd send it right back to the moron who sent it to me and embarrass the shit out of them. But then I honestly don't know anyone that stupid so I'm unlikely to get the sort of email they're looking for.

They're all maniacal money grubbing whores when it comes down to it. You never get a return on your dollar and it would be really embarrassing to have some loon asking me to act like an ass on their behalf so they can continue to have power over me.

Fuck this is so moronic I'm embarrassed to partake in it. The only caveat is you guys are funny and the band rocks.

This generation of idiots would be lucky to correctly order a #3 meal at McDonald's let alone trying to achieve a Lunar Landing or something miraculous of that sort of order.

[DroppinScience]

what, in your biggest fear of fears is going to happen?

a beer in the whitehouse?


This would probably be the most terrifying scenario under Der Komissar Obama. I mean, seriously, drinking a Bud Light? That's like drinking water. I'm scared, and I don't know why nobody else is scared too!!!

[DroppinScience]

Rob's right, fellas. I think these are the prison camps Obama is setting up for the dissenters!

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/08/10/wh-launches-health-care-reality-check-web-site/

What tyranny!

[saz]

and being called a crazy loon for going to a town hall and disagreeing with the proposed healthcare plan.

you mean angry mobs going to town hall events and harrassing those inside, and issuing death threats to a congressman.

[yeahwho]

Like Sarah Palin and a host of other not very effective pundits, RobMoney you argue-by-extremes.

You know you will be able to have more coffee and donuts but since Obama has decided to elicit e-mails via computer technology, we're being led to Death Panels and eventually a certain... well let me hurt my brain and try to relate, some sort of superior race that's part white, black and has only the mother raise them or some fucked up nonsense.

The reality of eventually following your illogical path to it's conclusion provides humor.

The below article is from that NAZI propaganda machine, USA Today.. the Faith and religion page,

Is Palin's Schlafly-style fear rhetoric ethical politics? (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/religion/post/2009/08/68496550/1)

I'll leave it to our editorial page to debunk the unsubstantiated and preposterous Palin press release -- a wild distortion of an optional benefit already offered under Medicare to pay doctors for helping patients and their family face end-of-life decision making according to their own values.

What interests me here is the tactical gimmick of arguing-by-extremes. Palin reflects the teachings of the master -- Phyllis Schlafly, founder of the Eagle Forum and a conservative-right tactician extraordinaire.

[RobMoney$]

you can tell me what you think could possibly happen to people who get reported, like i keep asking you! come on rob, you invoked the holocaust, you can't back out now by saying "i don't know what to tell you"

once you play the nazi card you can't play the modesty card, that's the rule. i really want to know. worst case scenario. someone forwards sarah palin's "death panel" blog to a relative and gets reported for it. what, in the most unlikely dystopian future (with an articulable tie to reality) you can imagine, could possibly happen to that person?

you're making this vague (yet remarkably ominous) prediction about how the obama administration is going to make a list of people who disagree with its policies and...do...something...to...them and you can't just stop there, it isn't fair, you're absolutely killing me, you just have to tell me what that something is! what, in your biggest fear of fears is going to happen?

a blacklist?
waterboarding?
electrodes to the balls?
secret guantanamo?
a beer in the whitehouse?

make a prediction, i'm begging you. assume that you've convinced me to be scared, tell me what i'm supposed to be scared of

So bitter.

[Bob]

So bitter.

so you don't know?

[RobMoney$]

I shouldn't indulge you because I know you're not debating in good faith, Bob. You stringing me along here for some personal insult, But fuck it.

Let's say here's the scale of:
"Things that could possibly happen with the government collecting a list of names"

10 - Dissenters put into prison camps
9
8
7
6
5 - Dissenters will be charged with a misdemeanor of some sort.
4
3
2
1 - Dissenters will be sent an e-mail with "Obama's facts", setting them straight on the healthcare issue.
0 - Nothing


What will probably happen IMO, is anywhere from a 0 to a 1.

And as long as we have history books that tell us about the horrors of Nazi Germany, you can't say shit like that will never happen, because it did happen. So that has to be included in the "List of possibilities", right?

Now you may be fine with the Government compiling a list of names and doing something as benign as sending out a response e-mail, or something similar. If you're comfortable with that, fine.
I'm not.

The line for me is at 0 on that scale. Actually, my opinion is that they shouldn't even be making a list in the first place therefore there shouldn't even be a scale.

Answer me this Bob,
Why are they asking for names, or email addy's? Why can't people just cut and paste the disinformation they're asking for so they can compile a response?

[saz]

dude, they launched a reality-check website, where supporters of healthcare reform can forward the latest rounds of attacks from the right, in order to debunk healthcare reform lies and other b.s. being spread by the gop, wingnut talk radio show hosts, private health insurance company lobbyists, and other special interests. the fact that you're comparing this to nazi germany is incredibly bizarre and idiotic.




WASHINGTON — The White House on Monday turned to its favorite tool – the Internet – to bolster President Barack Obama's push for health care overhaul and challenge misconceptions about Democratic plans.

The Web site seeks to disprove several claims made by critics, including that proposed changes would result in rationing of care, euthanasia or end Medicare. As lawmakers return home for their August recess and faced wary constituents, the White House sought to calm fears and brace for a barrage of accusations.

"Given a lot of the outrageous claims floating around, it's time to make sure everyone knows the facts about the security and stability you get with health insurance reform," said White House senior adviser David Axelrod.

During last year's campaign, the Obama organization created a Web site to challenge what it said were smears. On that Web site, for instance, Obama posted a copy of his birth certificate to debunk claims that he is not a citizen.

Organizing for America, President Barack Obama's political operation, also urged supporters to visit the offices of members of Congress to express their support for overhaul. The sessions, dubbed "Office Visits for Health Reform," are designed to counter the opposition and tap into the president's extensive grass-roots network established during the campaign.

The e-mail appeal to supporters suggest they stop by the local congressional office for a quick conversation or to drop off a customized flier. "We can't let extremists hijack this debate, or confuse Congress about where the people stand," the e-mail says.

Claims about what health care overhaul would do have dogged the White House. Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin posted on her Facebook page that Obama's plan would create a "death panel" that would deny care to the neediest Americans. Radio personality Rush Limbaugh compared a White House health office logo to a Nazi symbol.

Opponents have disrupted town hall-style events with members of Congress. The White House is bracing for its own disruptions when the president heads to New Hampshire to talk about health care on Tuesday. His aides and advisers, meanwhile, are pushing back on specific concerns on the Web.

I'm here to tell you, quite simply, that if you are eligible for (Veterans Affairs) health care, you will remain eligible," said Matt Flavin, the White House's policy adviser for veterans affairs. "There is no impact on VA health care."

On the same site, Council of Economic Advisers chairwoman Christina Romer called complaints about small business impact a "myth" and White House policy chief Melody Barnes called rumors of euthanasia "fiction." They then explain why they believe the criticism is bunk.

Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, brushed off the White House's new message.

"In reality, the Web site simply recycles the same false claims that the administration and its allies in Congress have been pedaling for weeks," he said in an e-mail to supporters.

[Bob]

Let's say here's the scale of:
"Things that could possibly happen with the government collecting a list of names"

10 - Dissenters put into prison camps
9
8
7
6
5 - Dissenters will be charged with a misdemeanor of some sort.
4
3
2
1 - Dissenters will be sent an e-mail with "Obama's facts", setting them straight on the healthcare issue.
0 - Nothing


What will probably happen IMO, is anywhere from a 0 to a 1.

And as long as we have history books that tell us about the horrors of Nazi Germany, you can't say shit like that will never happen, because it did happen. So that has to be included in the "List of possibilities", right?


what? no, it doesn't have to be included. here's what bothers me about what you're doing; it doesn't sound to me like you're innocently comparing obama to hitler as a "list of possibilities", it sounds to me like you're saying "this is how hitler got started", when the possibility of this thing snowballing into fascism (or is it socialism? communism?) is so impossibly slim that i think it's downright irresponsible to talk about it like it's got any reasonable chance whatsoever of happening. it doesn't. and it's incredibly hard to have a reasonable debate about public healthcare when you constantly have to stop and explain how it's nothing like nazi germany.

obama is not hitler (or stalin or kim jong il or...whoever, pick one). he will never be hitler. as shitty as bush was, even he wasn't hitler - he was just a terrible president. i didn't like it when people compared his administration to the nazis, and i don't like it now. the fact that you don't see a problem with comparing this to nazi germany is upsetting me, rob. hitler started a war with the world and exterminated 6 million jews. obama's asking people to tell him the rumors they're hearing about health care. i don't see the link.



Answer me this Bob,
Why are they asking for names, or email addy's? Why can't people just cut and paste the disinformation they're asking for so they can compile a response?

are they asking for names? i looked at the website and i didn't see that. they said "If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov. " nothing about names. of course i'm sure they're going to get a few - some people will just forward the e-mails, some people might even be paranoid nuts who want to snitch on their neighbors, but i don't see what's stopping people from cutting and pasting the body of the e-mail and just leaving the contact information out. in fact i think that's exactly what the government is asking people to do...?

did i miss something?

[RobMoney$]

What bothers me is the fact that you're so sure it could never happen.
It fucking happened approx. 60 years ago. It's not even like it's ancient history. There are still living survivors of the Holocaust.

To suggest that it's out of the realm of possibility for it to ever happen is an insult to those survivors.

[Bob]

What bothers me is the fact that you're so sure it could never happen.
It fucking happened approx. 60 years ago. It's not even like it's ancient history. There are still living survivors of the Holocaust.

To suggest that it's out of the realm of possibility for it to ever happen is an insult to those survivors.

if i survived the holocaust, i think i'd be more offended by people casually invoking it every time they get a president they don't like

but i guess i can't speak for them (i don't think you can either though)

[RobMoney$]

I'd like to think a survivors message would be to make sure it never happens again. To be vigilant in making an issue at the slightest hint of subversive tactics by your government.


Fuck it man. Believe Obama's Govenment run propoganda machine.

[Dorothy Wood]

if i survived the holocaust, i think i'd be more offended by people casually invoking it every time they get a president they don't like



QFT.


also, rob, you forget that all the crazy racist fucks, the kind of people who follow a leader blindly enough to commit mass murder...are on the right. obama followers are pussies. there's no way you could get anyone who follows obama to work at an internment camp.

I know it doesn't seem like it, but people are a lot smarter and a lot more aware of themselves and their government than they were 60 years ago...heck, 10 years ago.

it's just not going to happen. so, STFU about hitler.



as far as the snitching thing goes....erm, I'm kind of concerned because it seems creepy. I'm not scared though. It's not like they're offering incentives to rat people out, or actually forcing people to turn people in. they're just providing information if they want.

everyone's still free. FOR NOW. DUN DUN DUNNNNNNN

[RobMoney$]

QFT.
also, rob, you forget that all the crazy racist fucks, the kind of people who follow a leader blindly enough to commit mass murder...are on the right. obama followers are pussies. there's no way you could get anyone who follows obama to work at an internment camp.

Way to stereotype (y)

[Bob]

i think there's a fairly bright line between "believing everything the government says" and "refusing to compare the president to hitler" and i'm pretty comfortable with my position with respect to that line

do you really in your heart of hearts think that there's a chance, however slim or unlikely, that obama is secretly a homicidal monster who, when we least expect it, will round up his opponents into camps and murder them? like the holocaust? that's what he might possibly have had planned from the beginning? and that we owe a duty to the victims of the holocaust, both living and dead, to stress this unlikely possibility every time obama does something we find suspicious? and that anyone who refuses to do so is some kind of sheep?

this has been enlightening...

[RobMoney$]

When I see anyone employing tactics the Nazi's used, no matter how benign, I shout it from the fucking rooftops.

Don't want to be compared to Nazi's? Don't do shit that they did.
Simple.

[Bob]

i'll be sure to keep it mind

[QueenAdrock]

It's asking for voluntary information, that people are willing to give. It's not subversive tactics. It's just gleaning information from people who are willing to help him fight the smears. Their personal information will go into a database that he can later hit up for money. That's the way politics works.

As someone with a BA in European History and a Master's in Information Science, I can assure you this has no parallels to Nazi Germany or propaganda. I could give you a whole long diatribe explaining why comparing Obama's politely asking for voluntary information is completely different from the Gestapo, who did not have to answer to judicial review and were exempt from all German laws, but I have a feeling it would be an exercise in futility. I could see this being a concern if Obama was actually demanding information from the people and saying something like it's their "patriotic duty" to do give information. He's not. He's asking. You can refuse to give information, without having to worry about responding to the SS.

[saz]

When I see anyone employing tactics the Nazi's used, no matter how benign, I shout it from the fucking rooftops.

Don't want to be compared to Nazi's? Don't do shit that they did.
Simple.

yeah, setting up a reality-check website in which people can forward healthcare reform smears, so the smears can be debunked, just reeks of nazi germany.

michele bachmann or what.

[Bob]

yeah, setting up a reality-check website in which people can forward healthcare reform smears, so the smears can be debunked, just reeks of nazi germany.

michele bachmann or what.

yeah but they're asking for names. why do they need the names?

...are they asking for the names? i still don't see it. i can try sending them an anonymous message and see if they ask me for a follow up, if anyone has a chain e-mail i can use.

[saz]

no, they're not asking for names. rob just made that up.

[ToucanSpam]

It's asking for voluntary information, that people are willing to give. It's not subversive tactics. It's just gleaning information from people who are willing to help him fight the smears. Their personal information will go into a database that he can later hit up for money. That's the way politics works.

As someone with a BA in European History and a Master's in Information Science, I can assure you this has no parallels to Nazi Germany or propaganda. I could give you a whole long diatribe explaining why comparing Obama's politely asking for voluntary information is completely different from the Gestapo, who did not have to answer to judicial review and were exempt from all German laws, but I have a feeling it would be an exercise in futility. I could see this being a concern if Obama was actually demanding information from the people and saying something like it's their "patriotic duty" to do give information. He's not. He's asking. You can refuse to give information, without having to worry about responding to the SS.

Yesssssssssss.

As someone with a nearly complete Masters degree in History (Canadian History, but believe me I've paid my dues with global history courses:D), I agree with QA entirely. There's nothing even remotely close to anything Hitler or the Nazi Party in this very innocent action. They aren't even asking for names, they're trying to help dispel the insane misinformation being produced by the same people who screech SOCIALISM and SECRET MUSLIM on a daily basis.

I tried very hard to swallow the whole discussion of Nazi tactics and understand this weird fear-mongering, but in the end I just threw up a little. I'm not suggesting that anyone here is entirely uneducated on the history of fascism, or even totalitarian regimes, but this kind of comparison is messed up and inconceivable. Even ignoring the complete misunderstanding of socialism, Marxism, fascism, Stalinism, and all the other political "isms", I can't wrap my hear around how people continue to compare leaders of today to someone like Adolf Hitler.

As someone who doesn't like Obama in the first place, you should have known better than to evoke the Nazis to demonstrate your point, Rob. I can understand your argument to the extent that the government could possibly be collecting data through seemingly innocent means. If it weren't for the very clear wording of the short statement in the original post (your post, by the way) I would be interested in the motivations of the government as well. However, as is, this needs to be taken at face value as a simple attempt to dispel wingnut allegations spread by spam mail.

[Bob]

no, they're not asking for names. rob just made that up.

only if you believe the propaganda

[DroppinScience]

I'd like to think a survivors message would be to make sure it never happens again. To be vigilant in making an issue at the slightest hint of subversive tactics by your government.


*ahem*

Reactions from people who have undoubtedly been effected by the Holocaust to those who would compare Obama to Hitler. This is specifically about Rush Limbaugh's remarks about Obama, but is worth sharing in this context.

...comparing Obama ( and Pelosi )to Hitler and the Nazis are grossly offensive and intolerable. They reflect a nasty and hyperbolic tendency on our political culture, one which makes reasoned discourse impossible, confuses disagreement with evil, and which makes it impossible to distinguish evil from ordinary politics. . . . It behooves all participants in the political process to unequivocally disavow the comparison and to make it plain that peddlers of such noxious comparison have no place in our politics, no matter how large their audiences. And all Americans should make plain their disgust at the comparisons by talk show hosts by a prompt use of the off button.



The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today called attempts by some opponents of health care reform to bring Nazi imagery into the debate, "outrageous, deeply offensive and inappropriate" and condemned remarks by talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, who compared President Obama's health care logo to a swastika, and policies championed by the Democratic Party to those of the Nazis.

"Regardless of the political differences and the substantive differences in the debate over health care, the use of Nazi symbolism is outrageous, offensive and inappropriate," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director and a Holocaust survivor. . . .

In recent days, street protests against President Obama's health care plan have gotten ugly, with some protestors appearing in photographs wearing swastika and SS symbols.

That prompted Rush Limbaugh to remark on his radio program that, "They accuse us of being Nazis, and Obama's got a healthcare logo that's right out of Adolf Hitler's playbook." He went on to compare certain Democratic Party policies to those of the Nazis.

And one more...

I just got off the phone with Rabbi Marvin Hier, Dean and Founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. He made clear that he has some "serious objections" to some of Obama's policies -- "especially in the foreign policy context" (read: Israel) -- but was nonetheless scathing in his condemnation of Rush Limbaugh. Limbaugh's comments are "shameful," "beyond the pale," and "unworthy of Americans." He said that to compare Obama's health care package to Nazi programs, or to compare Obama to Hitler, is to "demean ourselves"; that efforts to compare Obama's health care logo to Nazi logos are "preposterous" and "offensive"; and that Limbaugh's monologue in particular was "really disgraceful" and "shameful."

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/08/07/limbaugh/index.html

You sure you want to continue down this line?

[Bob]

rob, i think we got distracted by arguing over the validity of holocaust references. you've clearly got your opinion on that, and i've clearly got mine, and clearly neither of us are going to change each others' minds so i'm happy to drop that subject if you are

but there's a factual issue here that's killing me and i want to come back to it because i don't think it really got addressed

you asked me:

Answer me this Bob,
Why are they asking for names, or email addy's? Why can't people just cut and paste the disinformation they're asking for so they can compile a response?

and i answered you by saying that they in fact do not actually appear to be asking for names, or email addresses and that they really do seem to be just interested in addressing the actual rumors, as evidenced by this page (http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/) where they've, in your own words, compiled a response to the disinformation. and we can argue about the validity of that response and that's all very healthy, but still, i really am wondering, not so i can personally attack you, but because i want to properly understand your stance on this, where are you getting the idea that they want names and e-mail addresses so they can go after dissenters directly?

[Michelle*s_Farm]

but still, i really am wondering, not so i can personally attack you, but because i want to properly understand your stance on this, where are you getting the idea that they want names and e-mail addresses so they can go after dissenters directly?

Yes this is the key question. Thanks for asking him.

[RobMoney$]

Yeah, I was absolutely wrong on that one.

I thought the white house video of the woman with short blonde haircut said something about gathering info of the people who are spreading the "disinformation".

I was wrong.

[DroppinScience]

I was wrong.

Wouldn't be the first time.

[ToucanSpam]

DS don't be a jackass about it.:p

[saz]

When I see anyone employing tactics the Nazi's used, no matter how benign, I shout it from the fucking rooftops.

then where have you been during the past eight years, during the bush administration? why weren't you shouting from the rooftops about the patriot act? why weren't you shouting from the rooftops about illegal wiretapping? why weren't you shouting from the rooftops about illegal rendition? torture? guantanamo bay? the cia kidnapping innocent people? the blatant lies about wmds and saddam's ties to al-qaeda the bush admin told for invading iraq?

[kaiser soze]

oh, that's the minimal government rob likes, the kind that does minimal to uphold national and international law

[Bob]

once again, the daily show nails it (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-10-2009/healther-skelter)

[QueenAdrock]

Yeah, Stewart was right-on with that one. Palin claiming Obama had death panels nearly made me scream. I don't know how people can actually hear that and think, "Yeah, sounds like something Obama would want to set up." Ugh!

[yeahwho]

I actually started to post a litany of items about Sarah Palin then I caught myself.

Honestly, in real life do any of you know anyone as dumb as Sarah Palin?

Or do you know anyone who falls back on their word and honor as much as she has?

She is not even in the Junior High School level of healthcare debate.

[QueenAdrock]

Unfortunately, I know a few like her. They live in Boonsboro, MD. It's a remote place in MD that's known for high-Christian values...and the KKK, also. They're nice enough as long as you don't talk politics. Then you kinda want to punch them in the throat, or rip your hair out, or both.

[yeahwho]

Unfortunately, I know a few like her. They live in Boonsboro, MD. It's a remote place in MD that's known for high-Christian values...and the KKK, also. They're nice enough as long as you don't talk politics. Then you kinda want to punch them in the throat, or rip your hair out, or both.

So we are now catering to a group of citizens that use speaking points from someone who has a 13-14 year old level of understanding of the current health care debate in the United States.

Thank God these folks called Obama on his bullshit, we were so close to becoming a Nazi country with that email address it's spooky.