The White House is asking that you report dissenting views

[RobMoney$]

Facts are Stubborn Things

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.

I am so interested in seeing what you guys come up with to defend this one.

[yeahwho]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

Facts are Stubborn Things





I am so interested in seeing what you guys come up with to defend this one.

It's a smart idea, whatever nefarious activities could happen as a result of the current panic tactics should be anticipated and dealt with. It's called covering your bases.

Take for instance that MILFord academy bob is setting up for Moms going back to school, you know, I know, most of the board knows he just wants to get laid. But those dumb fucks on the Pearl Jam board are sending their Moms there in droves, much to bobs delight.

[RobMoney$]

Originally Posted by yeahwho

It's a smart idea, whatever nefarious activities could happen as a result of the current panic tactics should be anticipated and dealt with. It's called covering your bases.

Now pretend this is 1933 and you live in Germany.

Frankly, the mere mention of reporting dissent to the gov't scares the crap out of me, and is should scare the crap out of everyone.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

Facts are Stubborn Things





I am so interested in seeing what you guys come up with to defend this one.

there's dissent, and then there's outright lies. something like "government health care will raise costs and reduce efficiency" is dissent. that's good. that needs to be discussed. i don't think anyone wants to squelch that. on the other hand, something like "government health care will euthanize the elderly" or "my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care," is misinformation, and when ridiculous shit like that starts infiltrating peoples' minds below the radar and festers into the public discourse, it's very, uh, unproductive, to say the least.

if people don't like public health care then they're entitled to that opinion. it is definitely a big issue, and there will be benefits and there will be burdens and legitimate questions about the weight of those benefits and burdens definitely need to be discussed. but to add to the "burden" side of the scale by disguising outright lies as legitimate issues is a dangerous thing.

i can't speak for the white house, but if i had to guess, that's the kind of thing they want to address. if people are spreading lies about the consequences of public healthcare, then the government wants to be able to address it before it gains too much momentum.

of course, i could be way off. obama could very well want to send the secret service into peoples' homes at night and lock them away in secret prisons to get his euthanasiacare bill passed without opposition, that's a possibility.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

Now pretend this is 1933 and you live in Germany.

whoops! didn't see this! now i feel like an idiot for actually trying to debate this with you

make up your mind, rob. does obama want to turn this country into north korea or nazi germany?

[yeahwho]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

Now pretend this is 1933 and you live in Germany.

Frankly, the mere mention of reporting dissent to the gov't scares the crap out of me, and is should scare the crap out of everyone.

If they ever decide to have a "Jump to Illogical Conclusions" events category in the Olympics I'll sponsor you. Your avatar is perfect.

[RobMoney$]

The point is that we don't know what they plan on doing with the list of people they recieve that hold dissenting views.

Maybe this is benign - I really hope it is. If that's the case, don't you think that this is a poorly thought out proposition, sure to receive such a response?

I find it mind-boggling that this administration can not mine this data themselves without being sent tattling e-mails. I thought Obama and his henchmen were all geniuses, yet apparently they are incapable of using a search engine.

Since when does combating disinformation = asking people to rat on each other?

[RobMoney$]

Originally Posted by yeahwho

If they ever decide to have a "Jump to Illogical Conclusions" events category in the Olympics I'll sponsor you. Your avatar is perfect.

First they came for all those who disagreed with Obama's healthcare program...

and I said nothing.

[kaiser soze]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

Now pretend this is 1933 and you live in Germany.

Frankly, the mere mention of reporting dissent to the gov't scares the crap out of me, and is should scare the crap out of everyone.

I don't agree with this as well, but I'm curious....Your thoughts on warrant-less wiretapping?

[yeahwho]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

First they came for all those who disagreed with Obama's healthcare program...

and I said nothing.

Do you ever think that just maybe your being played by all this hysteria? This isn't about Nazism, This isn't about socialism... millions of Americans actually voted in Obama for a health plan much less compromised than the one being tallied about today.

We voted to have healthcare addressed. This isn't something being forced down our throats. It is what was advertised. Health care for each and every American citizen.

To stop the fucked up scams that have wreaked havoc on countless numbers of citizens due to the corporate health industries bottomline.

Is it amnesia the current crop of dissenters are suffering from?

[RobMoney$]

Originally Posted by kaiser soze

I don't agree with this as well, but I'm curious....Your thoughts on warrant-less wiretapping?

Con.

Along with things such as the Gov't being able to see what library books you've checked out, and being called a crazy loon for going to a town hall and disagreeing with the proposed healthcare plan.

[RobMoney$]

Originally Posted by yeahwho

Do you ever think that just maybe your being played by all this hysteria? This isn't about Nazism, This isn't about socialism... millions of Americans actually voted in Obama for a health plan much less compromised than the one being tallied about today.

We voted to have healthcare addressed. This isn't something being forced down our throats. It is what was advertised. Health care for each and every American citizen.

To stop the fucked up scams that have wreaked havoc on countless numbers of citizens due to the corporate health industries bottomline.

Is it amnesia the current crop of dissenters are suffering from?

This thread isn't really about the healthcare plan though.
It's about the white house asking for you to report the name of dissenters.

[Bob]

The point is that we don't know what they plan on doing with the list of people they recieve that hold dissenting views.

no, i suppose we don't. in your opinion, what is the worst case scenario? what do you expect obama might do?

I find it mind-boggling that this administration can not mine this data themselves without being sent tattling e-mails. I thought Obama and his henchmen were all geniuses, yet apparently they are incapable of using a search engine.

they're going after rumors spread through chain e-mails and casual conversations. people don't send these e-mails to or casually converse about such things with the white house. how would they "mine this data themselves"? the blogosphere is an infinite realm, it could take decades to find what they're looking for.

Since when does combating disinformation = asking people to rat on each other?

i don't think they want people to rat on people, in the sense that they're interested in actually going after the people. to me, it sounds like they just want to know what the rumors are, so they can bring them to light and address them.

again. i could be wrong. they could be building a camp as we speak. i promise i'll eat my words if that turns out to be the case

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

First they came for all those who disagreed with Obama's healthcare program...

and I said nothing.

please tell me that was a joke. please tell me you're not legitimately comparing this to the holocaust. please. i want to respect your opinion on this, so badly, but i just can't if you're unironically doing this

i mean, apart from the nazi comparisons i don't entirely disagree with you, and i don't think you're unreasonable to find this suspicious - it is a really weird thing for the federal government to ask people to do, but the holocaust, rob? the holocaust?

[yeahwho]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

Con.

Along with things such as the Gov't being able to see what library books you've checked out, and being called a crazy loon for going to a town hall and disagreeing with the proposed healthcare plan.

When does crazy loon become appropriate in your paranoid thought process?

[yeahwho]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

This thread isn't really about the healthcare plan though.
It's about the white house asking for you to report the name of dissenters.

So far every argument you've had about healthcare has nothing to do with healthcare. You have no real answers, just fucked up scenarios that stall any progress what so ever on helping millions of under-insured, unemployed and real sick fellow citizens who desperately need to be addressed.

The current health insurance industry just fucking doesn't care about these people. Do you not understand what is happening to your fellow citizens or is it you just fucking don't care to address this?

[RobMoney$]

If George Bush did this all hell would be breaking loose. The media would be in an uproar. John Stewart would be parading everyone he could find that was a victim of Joe McCarthy or anything similar on to his show.
But this administration doing it?
Why, they just want to make sure the truth is getting out.

Bob, couldn't Obama just combat disinformation by saying
"OK, here's the bill. We're gonna post it here at healthplan.gov. Go ahead, look it over the next couple weeks. We're not trying to hide anything from you. In a month, we're going to vote on it. Thanks."

instead of saying

"Tell us these lies (which may or may not be lies) people have been telling you."

Remember the campaign promises of Government transparancy? Didn't Obama promise that he was going to post bills online before they were voted on in the name of transparancy?
Perhaps they don't want you to read the bill because if you did, instead of 58% of the people disagreeing with it, 80% would disagree with it.


...and don't think for one second that Obama isn't putting out a bit of his own disinformation on the issue.

[RobMoney$]

Originally Posted by yeahwho

So far every argument you've had about healthcare has nothing to do with healthcare. You have no real answers, just fucked up scenarios that stall any progress what so ever on helping millions of under-insured, unemployed and real sick fellow citizens who desperately need to be addressed.

The current health insurance industry just fucking doesn't care about these people. Do you not understand what is happening to your fellow citizens or is it you just fucking don't care to address this?

I don't know how else to 'splain it to you?
I'm not trying to make a statement about healthcare, I'm raising the issue of Obama becoming the new Joe McCarthy.

[Bob]

do you really think that posting the bill online would help? if i'm not mistaken, it's over 1200 pages. have you ever read a 1200 page bill? i once read a 50 page bill for a project and that shit is dense. i mean, i went to school for 3 years and paid over $120,000 to learn how to read that kind of stuff (that's $100 per page), and even i don't really have the patience or mental stamina to do it. i don't think that the breed of people who buy into the "death panel" rumors are going to be bothered to read the text of the bill or be soothed by it.

i'm not going to deny that obama's reneged on his campaign promises (an unprecedented thing for a president to do, i'm sure) or that he's guilty of "politics as usual" but do you not think you're blowing this a little out of proportion? i mean the holocaust, rob. the holocaust.

[RobMoney$]

A fine point you raise about the length of these bills, and the fact that no one is reading them, including the people we elected to vote on them.
Look no further than the stimulus bill that was signed.
When these banks started paying out million dollar bonuses to execs after they recieved the stimulus, your elected politicians suddenly became shocked.
If they had bothered to actaully read the bill, they would have seen that those bonuses were included in the proposal.


Which is why if I were commissioner of the world I would advocate for "The Brevity Amendment" to the Constitution.

No law, bill, resolution, or any act of Congress shall exceed 2000 words, including all footnotes, amendments and signatures.
Congress shall not vote on any item longer than that. Each item requiring a vote shall be read aloud in it's entirety in session to a majority of members.
Those not in attendance may not vote on the item.

[RobMoney$]

We Want You
to snitch on your neighbor.

[DroppinScience]

When the Obama death squad puts you in their gulags, we'll storm the impenetrable fortress (a la Clint Eastwood in "Where Eagles Dare") and rescue you!

[Bob]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

We Want You
to snitch on your neighbor.

you didn't answer my question, and i really am curious - in your opinion, what is the worst case scenario in regards to what will happen to the people who get reported?

i don't like phrasing the question that way - i firmly believe that the white house is more interested in the rumors than they are in the people spreading them, but i can't think of any better way to write it. regardless, the question stands - what do you think, in the worst case scenario, will happen to them?

[RobMoney$]

Well, who can say where it could lead, but I definitely could see it being the first step towards criminalizing dissent or disinformation. It also has the effect of turning ordinary citizens into the eyes and ears of the administration, also something that gives me reason for pause.

And who gets to decide what is just dissent, and what is disinformation? How much are we going to be spending to pay people to go rifiling through endless amounts of fowarded e-mails, all in the name of propogating Obama's own message. It just seems like yet another massive waste of time and money.

I guess it's the same reason I don't want to give my neighbor a machine gun. I doubt he'd do anything with it, but we never know until it's done, and he doesn't need it.

[kaiser soze]

It will not be the first step towards criminalizing dissent. You know how many people were rounded up, detained, arrested, injured, and flagged as terrorists for dissent during bush's reign?

now you're paying attention

[QueenAdrock]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

I'm raising the issue of Obama becoming the new Joe McCarthy.

I could have sworn that Joe McCarthy hated socialism, though!

Either way, it's nothing new. It's what his administration did during the primaries, too. John Kerry ignored the smear campaigns against him in 2004, which was a bad move. In 2008, Obama started http://www.fightthesmears.com/ where you can report the latest smear you've heard. If enough of one smear has been reported, then they come out with a response to it. He's not waiting until it becomes a huge news sensation, he wants to clear up any misinformation when it comes out (thus him asking people to report it once they've heard it -- doesn't get any newer than that). Check out the site, he has responses and "get the facts" to many well-known smears against him. I'm assuming that's what he'll do with the health insurance rumors he gets sent to him, too.

Not to mention, he asks EVERYONE to report what was heard, so he can help dispel rumors. His base of liberals are going to be the ones who report rumors they've heard, and he's not going to do anything with that list. Knocking down his constituents doors and demanding that they tell him who said what to them would not help his re-election, don't you think? It's ridiculous to compare this to Nazi Germany, the Gestapo, or Information Repression.

Furthermore, Obama is anti-censorship. He believes in the freedom of speech, not censoring violent video games (rather, he's for parents helping their children make decisions), believes in freedom of reading whatever materials you want. For the record, Obama also agrees with you on library records: "I want to work with you to ensure that libraries continue to be sanctuaries of learning, where we are free to read and consider what we please without the fear that Big Brother may be peering over our shoulders to find out what we’re up to."

I'm not worried.

[kaiser soze]

As if tattle tails never ran to a Republican White House

Right now the Conservative PR movement is so viral (literally), Obama is looking for a way to counter it. This is also a W.H. that is receiving unprecedented amounts of threats. They are keeping on their toes as they should be.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by RobMoney$

Well, who can say where it could lead, but I definitely could see it being the first step towards criminalizing dissent or disinformation.

really? i'm not an expert but i'm pretty sure the first amendment would prevent that. even the wise, proud latina woman would probably be willing to reverse that conviction

i really desperately want to pick your mind here rob - in your opinion, give me your worst case scenario, your most on-the-limb speculation. what do you think could happen to people who get reported?

[RobMoney$]

Originally Posted by kaiser soze

It will not be the first step towards criminalizing dissent. You know how many people were rounded up, detained, arrested, injured, and flagged as terrorists for dissent during bush's reign?

now you're paying attention

Oh, you must be alluding to the Patroit Act.
Obama continued that too.
Illegal wiretapping is fine with him.

Didn't like this kind of shit under Bush, and I don't like under this guy either.

[Documad]

I'll bet they don't do anything with the emails they get except possibly thank the sender for sending it in (and hit him/her up with a request for money). The point of the thing is keep up their list of potential donors/supporters--and to make people feel like they're doing something to help, even though it's something silly like forwarding an email.

Rob, I think you must have gotten on some scary email lists or you joined some other message board that's stoking up the paranoia. Still, I think it's a good idea to remember that whenever you receive or send a wacky email, there's a record of it out there, whether or not your friends forward it to the white house. That's a fact of life, even if the Stasi aren't going to round us up.

[RobMoney$]

Originally Posted by Bob

really? i'm not an expert but i'm pretty sure the first amendment would prevent that. even the wise, proud latina woman would probably be willing to reverse that conviction

i really desperately want to pick your mind here rob - in your opinion, give me your worst case scenario, your most on-the-limb speculation. what do you think could happen to people who get reported?

I don't know what to tell you, Bob.
Maybe the government will do nothing with people's names.


All I know is that history has shown us things like this are never a good idea.


At what point does the government incrementaly taking away your freedom become too much? What line is it for you?